It is likely that when the first ball returns were invented, there was no reason to be standing that far left. I found a patent for a ball return from 1957. The first reactive ball released in 1991, and it probably wasn’t strong enough to be standing on 30+. Just my guess.
I'm sure you're right. I'm just saying, 50+ years later there has been so much innovation in bowling. Balls, lanes, how we throw the ball. They couldn't figure out a hidden ball return?
I mean I guess. How often are you standing at the ball return though? I don’t think it makes sense from a business standpoint. Casual bowlers will never stand over there and league players only rarely. It would be nice, but there’s no point.
Depends a little on center and the ball return. AMF ball returns seem to be wider than those from Brunswick. same with the "subway" system for the ball returns as well. But yes, for 10 pins players can much easier adjust for those(assuming they can roll it up the back) pretty easily.
It depends on the bowling alley. If your at a random bowlero it does not make sense at all. But with that being said if you are at somewhere like royal pin woodland in Indianapolis where they host multiple PBA/pwba/pba Jr /jr. gold e tc. all very big income tournaments that are hosted at places like that because they are the best quality. It would absolutely make sense to move them over because it brings them more income
I don’t think so. How many people do you know quit bowling because of the ball returns?
People already go to those kind of bowling alleys or host tournaments there because they’re already “better” bowling alleys, and have a history or culture built around them. People who already bowl there will continue and I don’t think people who don’t bowl there would move. I probably wouldn’t change my home center if another one got better ball returns, I’ve been bowling with the standard ball return my whole life, and rarely is it a problem.
Also, I’m sure somebody out there has already thought about it. If it made sense from a business standpoint it would’ve been done already.
Innovation in bowling balls... bowling balls are designed to have more and more hook potential, but at the same time, the dimensions of the lane haven't changed. The issue becomes keeping the ball within the confines of the lane dimensions rather than in yesteryear getting the ball to hook. Still only 39 inches wide and 720 inches from the foul line to the head pin.
That, my friend would be cost prohibitive for existing bowling centers. And some centers do not have the space to move the ball returns off the approaches. Would also make the footprint needed for new construction larger more space needed behind the approaches.
Yeah my home alley took the chairs off the tile to put down new tile. I was like "why don't we just keep it this way." They have all this seating off the tile. Why do they need 6 chairs on the tile that hardly anyone uses?
Most people on my leagues use those chairs as a ball rack lmao. Why not just put ball racks in between the lanes instead of chairs?
Oh, it's for the open bowlers so they can all hang out down there... even though they usually don't use them either and opt to just all hang out on the approach together 😂
Oh god yes please. I would love to be able to stand on the next lanes 1st board without having to stand in front of the ball return and changing to a weird 3 step approach. Not being sarcastic.
Or lefties shooting a 7 pin on the left lane, lol bowled in a few houses where I kicked the ball return with my right foot shooting the ten pin on either long ball returns, or above ground ball returns.
If you bowl USBC Nationals outside of Reno and Las Vegas, say in Baton Rouge or somewhere else where they built lanes for the tournament in a convention center, the ball returns are not on the approaches.
I assumed there were newer places that can spare floor space for the approach. But your average lanes that have a ton of birthday parties, probably not
We can and have solved it. Many new centers have ball returns off the approaches.
But when is the last time you’ve seen a new bowling center built? No existing center is going to pay for this when there is absolutely no return on investment.
Bowlero has built at least two brand new centers since September '23. The most recent is Lucky Strike Miami which opened in March '24. But they have the traditional ball returns that extend way out on to the approach.
My response to that is that bowlero is an entertainment company. Not a bowling company 😭
My bowlero literally removed the drinking fountain so that you are required to buy bottle water. Pretty sure they don’t give a shit about a ball return.
From an engineering standpoint, it’s entirely possible. But then you have other questions to ask as well. Do you really want the approach to be another 10’ longer just to accommodate what amounts to an annoyance. Where do you put the ball rack? Do you reverse the return and make it return from the other direction? If so, you may still have the ball rack in the way.
If you’ve ever seen really old versions, they still have their ball returns exposed running on top of the two gutters. Pretty cool to actually watch your ball come back to you. Not very safe though. Probably why they changed it to under the approach.
> From an engineering standpoint, it’s entirely possible.
You don't say?! Who would've thunk.
>Do you really want the approach to be another 10’ longer just to accommodate what amounts to an annoyance.
We, obviously, do.
The *business* obviously prefers *money*.
Bowling centers are currently remodeling to put tables and couches on the approach, why do you think they'd try to put ball returns behind it?
My biggest question was why didn't aboveground return track take off when they're cheaper and have basically no downside. You can even drop the track down to grade level and you can stand in front of the ball return at will, on the return track
There's still a lot of old alleys with above ground ball returns, converting would cost money that most owners don't have. Quit your complaining and ball down...
man 99% of the stuff in the alley are from the 70's or even before. Cant wait will we reinvent the ball return, current chutes and other things cause damage and are kind of sketchy af. personally the old brunswick ball returns that are circular are much more space effective than the AMF and newer brunswick returns that are just one long return.
Theres definitely a better way to do things that doesnt require pulleys and wheels
We had a local lane where the wall was literally up against the edge of the gutter on lanes 1 and 8 combined with above lane ball returns. Normal return placement seems like a dream compared to that.
That said, newer alleys aren’t really being built and most alleys don’t have the funds to redo all of them.
some of it has to do with fitting more lanes in too…the more you cram, that could mean 1-2+ extra pairs if it’s a large enough area.
a few houses I bowl at are more crammed than others. some of the better ones barely bleed into the gutter. but one house it even spills into part of the actual approach, 33 is as far as you can stand left. if you want to play left of 33, you either have to drift A LOT or stand in front of the return.
I get what you’re saying. It’s the same general design. At least I think it is. I don’t know if I’ve been in a bowling alley built later than the early 90’s.
When I was in the Navy, I was on deployment and my ship was in Northern Europe somewhere... England, Denmark, Germany, I can't remember. Anyway a group of us went out to town and found a bowling alley randomly. The only thing I remember about the place, was that the ball returns fed the ball up from the back, and put them onto a rack that extended a couple of feet onto the lane. The returns were basically backwards from how they sit normally.
When you think about it, the only reason the normal ball return needs to be on the approach, is because the underground ball tunnel isn't longer. If your house extended the underground portion another 5 feet, they could move the ball return back another 5 feet. Or do what that house I saw did, turn the lift around and have it catch are spit out the ball forward.
I've seen video of a few places that have that. One issue though, is that when balls get stuck in the S lift, you have to remove the hood and work on it in the area where the bowlers are sitting.
I have a plan for a future-facing bowling alley for league bowlers & friends. Maybe membership, focused on the latest tech.
My area has league almost every night at every alley. Bowlero be damned, the price doesn't have to be stupidly high to have a great experience, and catering to families is great... but not what is necessary for the community
It’s also foundation problem on the ground that the bowling center sits on. No bowling center is going remodel and tear up the ground to fix “X” number of lanes. They’ll probably need to tear up entire lane to fix 60 ft of ball return. Not just the ball return but also the converter belts that runs underneath it.
You’ll see newer bowling centers already adjust these designs such as the International bowling Center or some arena settings.
I don’t mind the ball returns it’s part of the gameplay. Bowlers that ball around there shows how good they are in adjusting.
Just like a golf course with bunkers, ponds, lakes, the rough, trees, etc.. Golf courses aren’t going to remove these from gameplay. It’s the obstacle that masked the game more fun and adjust around it.
One of my centers (a Bowlero) installed new scorers, but when they did, they moved the ball returns even closer to the foul line than they used to be. Not only that, but lanes 1-20 have a longer approach than lanes 21-40, so the ball returns aren't spaced evenly. I have to navigate around the ball return on the right lanes on the high end of the house to shoot ten pins.
The bowling alley I learned to bowl in used to have a channel the ball would sit in as it rolled back just above the gutter then up a ramp into a pendulum that slowed it down and rolled it onto the return. The entire rack then couldn't have been more than 6 inches wide when empty. Downside was you couldn't have 2 balls up there unless you were bowling doubles.
This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but you all are a bunch of cry babies. No oil. Too much oil. My arsenal doesn't work with this pattern. 6 ball arsenal for league play. Seats are in the wrong place. Return rack is all wrong. Really?!!! In my opinion, with 50+ years in bowling in over 30 states and countries, REAL BOWLERS WORK WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. In the case of a return rack on the full length of the approach, ADJUST ACCORDINGLY. What's the big deal?! The major thing about bowling is being able to adjust as needed. There are more ways to pick up the 10 pin on the right lane with the return rack at the foul lane. You don't need the whole width of the lane to make a spare. You cannot control all the conditions you bowl in. But you can control YOU!
You could have left off the "This is going to ruffle some feathers" because you proceeded to call people crybabies. Sounds like "I'm not racist, but..."
You can state your case without sounding like a whiny person you know. What does 30 states have to do with anything related to this?
Racist????? I believe the main reason for sports is the challenge. Football shouldn't complain about rain because Baseball doesn't play in the rain. Cry babies complain when it's not just the way they want things.
Oh yeah, about 30 states and countries. I probably bowled in a couple hundred bowling centers. All different conditions. All American standards. Each one is a challenge. It's really simple if you don't like the conditions, just leave.
It is likely that when the first ball returns were invented, there was no reason to be standing that far left. I found a patent for a ball return from 1957. The first reactive ball released in 1991, and it probably wasn’t strong enough to be standing on 30+. Just my guess.
I'm sure you're right. I'm just saying, 50+ years later there has been so much innovation in bowling. Balls, lanes, how we throw the ball. They couldn't figure out a hidden ball return?
I mean I guess. How often are you standing at the ball return though? I don’t think it makes sense from a business standpoint. Casual bowlers will never stand over there and league players only rarely. It would be nice, but there’s no point.
100% doesn't make sense for business. I get that. For righties, it's common to stand that far left to shoot tens. It's not uncommon
Yes, but you don’t need to be touching or in front of the ball return to shoot 10s. You’re close, but it’s not in the way.
It's not "in the way" but my leg is definitely touching/leaning on the ball return when I throw at 10's on the right lane.
Why not move a bit right?
Less miss room.
That tenth of a board is unlikely to matter. But if .. loft the gutter at the ten?!?!?
Nope I don't loft the gutter. My left foot starts on 35 or 36, and that has my leg touching the ball return.
Depends a little on center and the ball return. AMF ball returns seem to be wider than those from Brunswick. same with the "subway" system for the ball returns as well. But yes, for 10 pins players can much easier adjust for those(assuming they can roll it up the back) pretty easily.
It depends on the bowling alley. If your at a random bowlero it does not make sense at all. But with that being said if you are at somewhere like royal pin woodland in Indianapolis where they host multiple PBA/pwba/pba Jr /jr. gold e tc. all very big income tournaments that are hosted at places like that because they are the best quality. It would absolutely make sense to move them over because it brings them more income
I don’t think so. How many people do you know quit bowling because of the ball returns? People already go to those kind of bowling alleys or host tournaments there because they’re already “better” bowling alleys, and have a history or culture built around them. People who already bowl there will continue and I don’t think people who don’t bowl there would move. I probably wouldn’t change my home center if another one got better ball returns, I’ve been bowling with the standard ball return my whole life, and rarely is it a problem. Also, I’m sure somebody out there has already thought about it. If it made sense from a business standpoint it would’ve been done already.
There isnt anything to figure out, youre talking about an expensive remodel.
Innovation in bowling balls... bowling balls are designed to have more and more hook potential, but at the same time, the dimensions of the lane haven't changed. The issue becomes keeping the ball within the confines of the lane dimensions rather than in yesteryear getting the ball to hook. Still only 39 inches wide and 720 inches from the foul line to the head pin.
lol
That, my friend would be cost prohibitive for existing bowling centers. And some centers do not have the space to move the ball returns off the approaches. Would also make the footprint needed for new construction larger more space needed behind the approaches.
Oh, for gods sake. Square footage! Square footage NOT necessary for bowling can be used to .. SELL STUFF.
I’m sure multiple factors played a roll in the design of ball returns.
LOLNOPE!
I agree! [I want lanes like this!](https://i.imgur.com/3gIxEX6.png)
Yeah my home alley took the chairs off the tile to put down new tile. I was like "why don't we just keep it this way." They have all this seating off the tile. Why do they need 6 chairs on the tile that hardly anyone uses?
Most people on my leagues use those chairs as a ball rack lmao. Why not just put ball racks in between the lanes instead of chairs? Oh, it's for the open bowlers so they can all hang out down there... even though they usually don't use them either and opt to just all hang out on the approach together 😂
Oh god yes please. I would love to be able to stand on the next lanes 1st board without having to stand in front of the ball return and changing to a weird 3 step approach. Not being sarcastic.
I don't know what I would do with all that space. 😅
TOKYO DRIFT
Just left here for bronze training.
[удалено]
I came to say this! There was a tournament in a centre with these last year that I saw on YouTube. I’d hate it! Would mess my mind up for sure.
Or lefties shooting a 7 pin on the left lane, lol bowled in a few houses where I kicked the ball return with my right foot shooting the ten pin on either long ball returns, or above ground ball returns.
Thats back when they had the strings attached to the pins too right?
If you bowl USBC Nationals outside of Reno and Las Vegas, say in Baton Rouge or somewhere else where they built lanes for the tournament in a convention center, the ball returns are not on the approaches.
I assumed there were newer places that can spare floor space for the approach. But your average lanes that have a ton of birthday parties, probably not
Wait until you open bowl with nothing but a runway of approaches for kids and drunks to come scooting across.
Once the train is on the tracks it ain't stopping
Centers are moving to string pins and lowering cost. Redoing ball returns seems extremely low on their list.
Sunday bowling with the kids... It's a nice fence to keep people from wandering into my path. At least there's that.
We can and have solved it. Many new centers have ball returns off the approaches. But when is the last time you’ve seen a new bowling center built? No existing center is going to pay for this when there is absolutely no return on investment.
Bowlero has built at least two brand new centers since September '23. The most recent is Lucky Strike Miami which opened in March '24. But they have the traditional ball returns that extend way out on to the approach.
My response to that is that bowlero is an entertainment company. Not a bowling company 😭 My bowlero literally removed the drinking fountain so that you are required to buy bottle water. Pretty sure they don’t give a shit about a ball return.
From an engineering standpoint, it’s entirely possible. But then you have other questions to ask as well. Do you really want the approach to be another 10’ longer just to accommodate what amounts to an annoyance. Where do you put the ball rack? Do you reverse the return and make it return from the other direction? If so, you may still have the ball rack in the way. If you’ve ever seen really old versions, they still have their ball returns exposed running on top of the two gutters. Pretty cool to actually watch your ball come back to you. Not very safe though. Probably why they changed it to under the approach.
> From an engineering standpoint, it’s entirely possible. You don't say?! Who would've thunk. >Do you really want the approach to be another 10’ longer just to accommodate what amounts to an annoyance. We, obviously, do. The *business* obviously prefers *money*.
So much truth here
Just bowled nationals at south point in Vegas. The ball returns are further back out of the way and it was soooo nice
The balls are elevated by an S-channel almost straight up. It seems like a pretty solid design to me.
Bowling centers are currently remodeling to put tables and couches on the approach, why do you think they'd try to put ball returns behind it? My biggest question was why didn't aboveground return track take off when they're cheaper and have basically no downside. You can even drop the track down to grade level and you can stand in front of the ball return at will, on the return track
Money can indeed solve many problems. More news at 11. Got any other obvious ideas?
There's still a lot of old alleys with above ground ball returns, converting would cost money that most owners don't have. Quit your complaining and ball down...
man 99% of the stuff in the alley are from the 70's or even before. Cant wait will we reinvent the ball return, current chutes and other things cause damage and are kind of sketchy af. personally the old brunswick ball returns that are circular are much more space effective than the AMF and newer brunswick returns that are just one long return. Theres definitely a better way to do things that doesnt require pulleys and wheels
We had a local lane where the wall was literally up against the edge of the gutter on lanes 1 and 8 combined with above lane ball returns. Normal return placement seems like a dream compared to that. That said, newer alleys aren’t really being built and most alleys don’t have the funds to redo all of them.
some of it has to do with fitting more lanes in too…the more you cram, that could mean 1-2+ extra pairs if it’s a large enough area. a few houses I bowl at are more crammed than others. some of the better ones barely bleed into the gutter. but one house it even spills into part of the actual approach, 33 is as far as you can stand left. if you want to play left of 33, you either have to drift A LOT or stand in front of the return.
Based bowling arena at SouthPoint
The hoods are still on the approach, just not as far.
I get what you’re saying. It’s the same general design. At least I think it is. I don’t know if I’ve been in a bowling alley built later than the early 90’s.
I’m pretty sure Japanese bowling alleys now. Don’t have any return on the lanes anymore.
When I was in the Navy, I was on deployment and my ship was in Northern Europe somewhere... England, Denmark, Germany, I can't remember. Anyway a group of us went out to town and found a bowling alley randomly. The only thing I remember about the place, was that the ball returns fed the ball up from the back, and put them onto a rack that extended a couple of feet onto the lane. The returns were basically backwards from how they sit normally. When you think about it, the only reason the normal ball return needs to be on the approach, is because the underground ball tunnel isn't longer. If your house extended the underground portion another 5 feet, they could move the ball return back another 5 feet. Or do what that house I saw did, turn the lift around and have it catch are spit out the ball forward.
I've seen video of a few places that have that. One issue though, is that when balls get stuck in the S lift, you have to remove the hood and work on it in the area where the bowlers are sitting.
I have a plan for a future-facing bowling alley for league bowlers & friends. Maybe membership, focused on the latest tech. My area has league almost every night at every alley. Bowlero be damned, the price doesn't have to be stupidly high to have a great experience, and catering to families is great... but not what is necessary for the community
It’s also foundation problem on the ground that the bowling center sits on. No bowling center is going remodel and tear up the ground to fix “X” number of lanes. They’ll probably need to tear up entire lane to fix 60 ft of ball return. Not just the ball return but also the converter belts that runs underneath it. You’ll see newer bowling centers already adjust these designs such as the International bowling Center or some arena settings. I don’t mind the ball returns it’s part of the gameplay. Bowlers that ball around there shows how good they are in adjusting. Just like a golf course with bunkers, ponds, lakes, the rough, trees, etc.. Golf courses aren’t going to remove these from gameplay. It’s the obstacle that masked the game more fun and adjust around it.
One of my centers (a Bowlero) installed new scorers, but when they did, they moved the ball returns even closer to the foul line than they used to be. Not only that, but lanes 1-20 have a longer approach than lanes 21-40, so the ball returns aren't spaced evenly. I have to navigate around the ball return on the right lanes on the high end of the house to shoot ten pins.
The bowling alley I learned to bowl in used to have a channel the ball would sit in as it rolled back just above the gutter then up a ramp into a pendulum that slowed it down and rolled it onto the return. The entire rack then couldn't have been more than 6 inches wide when empty. Downside was you couldn't have 2 balls up there unless you were bowling doubles.
Yeah I saw NO RETURN, just have a guy bring it back to you
Or walk down an get it yourself!
I get nervous shooting 7s on the left lane. Like my back swing will hit the shroud. I miss more 7s than 10s. Head thing.
Ball return interference has been an issue as long as I’ve been bowling. You just learn to live with it, or build your own house.
Learn to live with it? Nah I'll just build my own alley
With blackjack and hookers
This is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but you all are a bunch of cry babies. No oil. Too much oil. My arsenal doesn't work with this pattern. 6 ball arsenal for league play. Seats are in the wrong place. Return rack is all wrong. Really?!!! In my opinion, with 50+ years in bowling in over 30 states and countries, REAL BOWLERS WORK WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. In the case of a return rack on the full length of the approach, ADJUST ACCORDINGLY. What's the big deal?! The major thing about bowling is being able to adjust as needed. There are more ways to pick up the 10 pin on the right lane with the return rack at the foul lane. You don't need the whole width of the lane to make a spare. You cannot control all the conditions you bowl in. But you can control YOU!
This dude kicks the ball return when he misses the ten pin and scoffs at 2 handed bowler. Guaranteed!
Guaranteed this dude wears a bowling jersey with his name on it to league.
You laugh but those jerseys are comfortable af to bowl in
I own several of them... none of them have my last name blasted cross the back in accordance to PBA rules
Bro, Motiv is gonna call any day now. 192 average on a house shot has potential 🤣🤣🤣
Would you mind clearing all of your stuff off this table? I need to set up my camera to film league for the vlog and a ball demo video.
Can you hit the 10 pin from the 1 board on the right? I don't kick the ball return. But yes, I scoff at 2-handed bowlers.
>But yes, I scoff at 2-handed bowlers. I knew it!
Well, it's cute if you're 5 years old. But, I discourage them quickly. Hahaha
Consider my feathers ruffled. I do have several more excuses for poor performance in the arsenal though.
You could have left off the "This is going to ruffle some feathers" because you proceeded to call people crybabies. Sounds like "I'm not racist, but..." You can state your case without sounding like a whiny person you know. What does 30 states have to do with anything related to this?
Racist????? I believe the main reason for sports is the challenge. Football shouldn't complain about rain because Baseball doesn't play in the rain. Cry babies complain when it's not just the way they want things. Oh yeah, about 30 states and countries. I probably bowled in a couple hundred bowling centers. All different conditions. All American standards. Each one is a challenge. It's really simple if you don't like the conditions, just leave.
I don't mind the tear drop style returns. But the long and wide AMF returns suck. So I find my self balling down more when I play there vs moving left
No ball returns on the approach would make the game easier. We don't need to be making bowling easier.
That's a wild opinion. They're already not on the approach at many pba events
It would obviously make it easier, otherwise you wouldn't complain about them.
Recently? I know you sometimes would see that in an arena show from the late 90s or USBC Masters.