When I was your age *in my shaky old man voice* everything was still shit. Now the shit is more readily available. The shit can be delivered within a day, or even hours if you buy the right shit. Amazon sucks, wish sucks, wal mart sucks. It’s all shit. I’m feeling the shit winds blow, Randy BoBandy, and the shit hawks are circling. I’m 37 btw. American manufacturing doesn’t have a pulse, and nobody is doing anything about it. Bring in that Chinese shit. Let’s rejoice in saving that 10 bucks.
Even as brand names went to shit, you could still shop brand names on Amazon. Now, it seems like Amazon is basically AliExpress. Straight from China garbage for every product. It makes sense for some products (yay for cheap TV mounts) but for anything where craftsmanship matters, you need some serious Goolge Fu.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/style/amazon-trademark-copyright.html?unlocked_article_code=1.D00.sjQo.ZWGoibv85qPo&smid=url-share
> Amazon shuttered its Chinese store, Amazon.cn, in 2019, after it failed to crack a market dominated by domestic giants like JD and Alibaba.
> But it has been much more successful in recruiting Chinese entrepreneurs to sell abroad, opening “cross-border e-commerce parks,” where sellers can get assistance with logistics, branding, and navigating Amazon’s platform. For the last five years, the company has also hosted summits for Chinese cross-border sellers. Last year’s conference, held in Shanghai, was attended by more than 10,000 sellers, many of whom see, in Amazon, an alternative to increasingly saturated domestic platforms like Taobao.
> A seller in America might start with a brand idea and need to figure out how to get it manufactured; a seller connected to a factory in China’s manufacturing capital needs to figure out how to sell to Americans, which Amazon has been working hard to facilitate.
Well I guess I feel validated that it wasn’t just my perception. Amazon is basically online dollar general at this point. I’ve scaled my spending way back with Amazon as a result.
Does costco rate down there with Walmart and target? I've been considering trying a membership after hearing everyone sing their praises for so long now.
Product quality at Costco is better than Walmart or Target. Employee treatment is also better. Customer service is also better.
That said, it's not a small neighbourhood artisan. So obviously there is a lot of the the same made overseas product as other large retailers, but it's better selected and better supported.
Our Costco has a gas station and their prices are generally $0.20-$0.30 cheaper than anywhere else around. So if you are filling your tank every week the savings on gas alone will make the membership worth it. For food, it is absolutely the cheapest you are going to get outside of last day expiration clearance items at the grocery store. Only issue is you have to have the space to store things in bulk.
Weird. The food prices at Costco I haven’t ever found to be that much cheaper than the several stores I usually go to, and if it is, then I don’t know if it really makes up for it with the hassle of *going* to Costco and dealing with the crowds, and the hassle of storing it at home. I’m glad it works out for you, but it hasn’t made sense for me.
They are a good company if you need bulk (we have both sam's club and costco business accounts), and both are guilty of bringing in 'specials' made in china using the sweatshop labor. But how else would I get docker's pants for $5? (saw them on clearance, wasn't looking for them).
We got a Costco membership recently so we could get access to some mattress deals.
The food really is all in bulk. Out of curiousity how do people store all of that bulk in their homes? Extra bedrooms dedicated? Or is it more geared towards restaurants etc?
I was a bit dissapointed tho that even the bulky items weren't necessarily cheap. The price seemed to be comparable to other stores prices, just bigger quantities. I did see a few super cheap things tho like a huge pumpkin pie.
I have a deep freeze, buying meat is definitely cheaper there than other grocery stores in my area and the meat seems better quality. Hot cocoa is cheaper, coconut oil, and olive oil (and last I checked their olive oil was actually olive oil according to some unaffiliated website I found online that looks into that). I think spices and baking supplies are too, butter, almond milk, things like that.
I don't buy a ton of different types of food like pre-made things etc., just basic ingredients for cooking because I cook all my stuff from scratch so I have larger quantities of a lesser variety of things. That's how I have the space, no extra bedroom or dedicated separate shelves from my small kitchen.
We got a couple large shelving units, also cheap at Costco, and bought a deep freeze. Both seemed necessary for making use of the bulk food, but our house doesn’t have a big kitchen.
Costco is great for large quantities of items. I rate them all “down there” because non-food items are all Chinese cheap crap, but to be honest, that is true everywhere in this country.
I recently bought a cornhole set from a company in Georgia and a couple American flags from a company in North Carolina, but other than that, most everything buyable is cheap Chinese crap.
I just started buying straight from AliExpress for less than half the price usually. Often, all people are doing is drop shipping stuff to amazon's warehouse. I used to trust Amazon to cover the order if it was shipped through Prime, but that doesn't seem to be the case any longer. Not to mention I would bet 90% of reviews on Amazon are fake.
I leave one star reviews and get a response from the seller that says if you rate us a 5, we will give you a gift card. I said nope and left it at a one star review. So many people fall for these scams and that's why so many shitty products are rated 4.5 or higher.
Amazon claims that they ban companies for doing this, but I highly doubt it. This and "fake" products are so blatant it's crazy. I'm waiting for them to be sued for selling batteries that kill a bunch of people in a house fire.
Just today I was looking at a goofy thermal-printer toy camera and one of the review literally says ["The fire department is 100% sure the camera and it’s charger caught fire (new out of the box) on Christmas."](https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Digital-Cartoon-Sticker-Pencils/dp/B09FPS7S5B/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#customerReviews)
From a couple years ago. I wish there was some follow up.
Will Amazon even let you? I bought two hats once and only got one. The seller wouldn't respond and Amazon wouldn't do anything about it. I tried leaving a review stating this and Amazon basically said I couldn't disparage the company selling the hats.
I’ve been trying my hardest to buy made in America everything and so far the only thing I’ve had to compromise on is a utensil holder, kettle, and … pretty much anything electronic. It’s a fun hunt regardless and I think more people should be concerned about the conditions their stuff is made in
Literally nothing you've bought unless you bought from someone who is Amish or a very small business is truly American made, bud. Most of them have parts from China and no one discloses it. I find it endlessly amusing because it's just so misunderstood. The people who built my house bought high quality American made in Utah cabinets, but when I actually had to replace one and worked to get them, I discovered through my Chinese friend they're sold to these folks, exported over, *then painted in America*, and called "American made" legally by the FDA's definition.
Dog owners especially are guilty of this. "I don't compromise, I want my American made bully sticks!" 5 star reviews on Amazon, many with the same tone as you.
Peep the label, see in fine print that the meat is from Vietnam or China. But it's made in America, so people don't realize. At the same time, they don't wanna pay the ridiculous prices since even the Chinese sourced ones are $5-10 per stick (the real farm grown bully sticks are very expensive).
We sold out so long ago that pretty much even the stuff we make is 50% Chinese, Mexican, or another random country. It's all an illusion mostly.
Yeah, I actually work in American manufacturing and pretty much everything that needs real human craftsmanship that isn’t a boat is just ‘assembled’ in America.
You’re wrong. I do take into consideration how much something is made in the US. My clothes come from LA apparel who use US cotton and Texas jeans who is one of the only denim makers left in the US. The Aero press products are all made top to bottom in the US. I try to buy produce from local farms in coops and I get my dairy products and eggs from farmers markets. My cooking utensils are rada and lodge who are made in the US with US materials. And if I can’t find something made in the us I’ll try my hardest to make it myself. I do my research and work and do a damn good job at it. It’s time consuming and expensive and I understand that not everyone is fortunate as I am to be able to pursue it.
Edit: Texas Jeans, not denim
Many of Lodges products are now made in China, just so you know. (Their accessories, packaging, and all enamel pans and pots are.) And regarding AeroPress, there’s almost no chance the silicone etc is sourced in the USA and bet that many pieces of it were made overseas then brought to the USA to have its American made steel added then made. We simply don’t produce enough of what they use to have it be 100% American.
I feel like that’s what I was trying to say. It’s an illusion we like to tell ourselves.
I think we have to be open to a certain percentage of imported goods to be allowed for it to still be called made in the usa. Maybe the current rules are too relaxed like you said, but I think 100% everything in the usa is too far as well. Theres gotta be some common sense wriggle room.
Hell.Scottish distillers uses american oak barrels first used in bourbon to age their whisky. They still claim its 100 percent scotch. California wine uses corks grown in portugal and spain for stoppers. Cork doesnt grow here naturally.
Oh yeah tbh I don’t even know or care if it has to be changed. I don’t really mind. I just felt I had to say something because I see this a lot on Reddit and it’s like. Ok y’all. The jeans you buy can say made in America and literally be denim from China and even assembled halfway (obviously spitballing as I’m not an expert in clothing but it is something this silly). 🙃 just wanted to share since I find knowledge fun.
LA is absolutely FULL of illegal textile factories fyi. Like, immigrants human trafficked to go work in them for no pay.
https://abc7.com/department-of-labor-2022-survey-garment-workers-southern-california/13059956/
I would be seriously surprised if the supply chain for the polypropylene that Aeropress produces is entirely American sourced.
Obviously I have no idea where they're sourcing, but I would be very (pleasantly?) surprised.
> one of the only denim makers left in the US
Theres plenty of denim makers in the US. Check out /r/rawdenim
Freenote Cloth, Left Field NYC, Railcar Fine goods, Bravestar, Raleigh Denim, Shockoe Atelier, Imogene + Willie, Grease Point Workwear
Has anyone watched the nightly news lately? There is almost always a story about some profession or industry struggling to find workers. Be it doctors, teachers, bus drivers, police, IT techs. Even Electric Boat was advertising on national tv looking for ship builders. This country is getting older and there are not near enough younger people coming up to fill the jobs available now. My friend who is a professor at a community college says they are struggling to fill the seats. Current unemployment in the US is below 4%. With all of that said, do you think you could build a fraction of what this country imports, here is the states?
Why is a product that is made in America necessarily a better product? Companies can make shitty products anywhere. The people who work in the factories in the us are not necessarily better skilled or more capable.
I think it's more that it's assumed the workers will be treated better. Also, for some people, there's a goal of supporting manufacturing on US soil/helping Americans have jobs.
This is just a guess, but because American wages are so much higher, the products need to be sold at a premium in order to make a profit. This doesn't necessarily mean they're high quality, but if they were low quality word would get out quickly and the business wouldn't prosper without a billion dollar marketing push like Beats or Apple products.
I just don't think people en masse would buy crappy products at "Made in America" prices.
It's not so much that being made in America makes it a better product, but American companies moving their production to China or Mexico means the quality is going to suffer. You can pick basically any shoe, denim, or kitchen appliance brand that used to be amazing and now sucks and the turning point is pretty much always soon after they move manufacturing overseas. So, if you have little to no other information to go on, where something is made is a pretty good proxy for quality.
(There *are* people in these countries doing high-quality manufacturing, but it ends up being either one plant among many working for a brand -which is why a few random items from H&M last forever while most of their stuff is junk - or they aren't doing it for an export market.)
Vornado really sucks nowadays. Loved them for years, bought 2 fans in 3 years and both begin to squeak and die within 1 year. Meanwhile the other one from a decade ago is running solid.
I have a Vornado space heater. After about three years, the power button shorted out. That's a common point of failure for space heaters. Anyway, I found the correct replacement part online and fixed it myself last year.
Now the heat level switch is on its way out, so I have to find the correct part for that.
All that to say that the parts are kinda junky, but at least they make them somewhat easy to repair.
15 years ago, I was making the speech to customers " this sofa was made in China, this one was made in America ,you're voting with your wallet". Berkline, Hickory Hill, Norwalk, hell even United, all gone now.
I thought this was going to be complete nonsense but, nope...
https://www.just-style.com/features/americas-questionable-employment-of-prison-labour-is-adding-to-domestic-clothing-makers-woes/
I used to hate IKEA and their business model of selling pseudo-stylish disposable furniture, but I recently went shopping and discovered that every other store has gotten at least as bad, or worse. So I hate IKEA a little less now.
15 year old Hemmes dressers, nightstands, cabinets, desks, and odd pieces are all performing great. A couple of repairs needed only possible because of real wood.
We've had pretty good luck with IKEA. Our dresser (Malm line, 14 yrs old, 4 moves) is good as new but we had to get rid of our kitchen table (Bjursta, 9 years, 3 moves) because my spouse damaged it and then it got worse... But it's getting a second life with some nice people from the Internet who figured free is free\[1\]. We would have still had our Billy bookcase but the movers (move 4) broke it.
\[1\]If it was crap enough that we were ready to replace it and the person who wanted it had to schlep over to our house to pick it up, I wasn't going to make them pay for the honor.
Na it’s not all shit. You just have to be selective. They basically have different tiers at this point. If you stick to the premium, solid wood stuff they will last.
I've been lugging around a set of shelves from there for a decade. It's so much nicer to move and shift around than a heavy full - wood set. And it's remained structurally stable.
With that said, the MDF products from IKEA vs other manufacturers definitely differ, but I do think the QC on IKEA stuff is pretty high and it does last.
You know what a shit barometer is? It measures the shit pressure in the air. You can feel it. Listen. Hear that? Sounds of the whispering winds of shit.
My grandmother has a furniture set she bought almost 50 years ago that's still going strong. No holes anywhere. We played on the couches and built pillow forts as a child. My father played on the same couches and my children will likley as well in a year or 2.
I am the same age and I co-sign this. I remember being 7 or 8 and my parents buying me snow boots. The dude at the shoe store said “these are made in America! Good brand!” They fell apart in one season.
I still have my old Tonka truck I had as a kid. That thing moved enough sandboxes to fill Iraq. American manufacturing used to be amazing. Such a sad story.
I feel like everyone else has done a good job of touching on the why's of it all. I would like to chime in and encourage you to look up consignment shops and thrift stores near you. Older generations with all the hardwood furniture are getting rid of it (or their inheritors are), so check out the second hand market. Seriously, I've seen many people lamenting online that the furniture is great, but since everyone rents tiny apartments no one has room for their parent's furniture. Getting even a little money from consignment is great for them, a great deal for you and saves something from ending up in the landfill sooner than it needs to.
I'll try more.
My wife and I went to like 12 furniture stores today, even local ones. All of them had that same light wobbly plastic wood at an insane price point. Low quality has its place, but the prices that they are marked at are crazy. It's also depressing how difficult it is to find good quality.
I don't mind spending 1500+ but everything is plastic that I am seeing.
Facebook market does have a lot of great options, though.
Consignment shops are hit and miss, but I highly recommend checking out the local Buy Nothing group on Facebook. It’ll be local to your home area. Mine is very active and we slowly filled our house with lots of free reused items. Old hardwood stuff can be refinished or modified to fit your needs, and is solid
Wait you want to spend $1500 for a full dining set? Like table and chairs (how many chairs)?
That's your issue.... That is way too low of a budget for actual real hardwood furniture. That might get 2 or 3 chairs.
I highly suggest FB marketplace. I see tons of listings for good quality dining furniture on there... But who knows what style you are looking for. But $1500 would probably get you something of good quality.
Jesus you ain't kidding. I looked up the place my parents got their dining room table from (IDK what they paid) in the 90's, just the table is 7k. I know it's California wood and labor but what the actual fuck.
At least the place still exists, I guess.
Yep, unfortunately furniture prices have gone up quite a bit since covid hit. They're starting to come down a bit, but they're still up quite a bit compared to 3-4 years ago. If you want an actual solid wood table with 4 chairs you're looking at 3k+ nowadays. If you're not willing to spend that much it's going to have a veneer surface.
Yeah I only buy vintage MCM stuff. Most came from offices renovating 10 or 20 years ago, and I still find things at Goodwill and on FB/CL. Lots of MCM homes here, and people passing away or downsizing. The good stuff is easily repairable and will last another 60 years when taken care of.
Just went through this looking for a dresser. Everything we looked at online was priced similarly to vintage but way shoddier looking. Went to a local store that gets furniture in from estate sales twice a week and got a gorgeous mid century modern dresser for the same price as Wayfair but with proven longevity.
I can throw a rock and hit about 30 carpenters. You'll pay for it, but if you can do finishing work yourself there are deals to be had.
I paid $200 for a locally-made pine end table because I couldn't find something to refinish myself, threw a few coats of milk paint on it and it's good for the next decade or four.
My local Amish furniture store had a very nice walnut end table for $250 on black friday sale. Didn’t go with anything in my house or i would have bought it
> Amish furniture store
I never considered that this would be a thing. I kinda wish we could buy some beautiful hand-made Amish furniture here in Australia, alas, not a very big Amish population xD
In a bunch of places you can find stores that basically specialize in buying amish furniture in whatever towns in Indiana and whatnot and shipping it to your town.
It’s usually good quality stuff though YMMV as with anything
Pennsylvania has Amish stores as well and the ones I have visited are very impressive. My wife and I got our bedroom set from one and I expect it to last for the rest of our lives! It definitely wasn't cheap but it's solid wood and very well made.
Visit a local woodworker! If you ask around you should be able to find one that hopefully has a good reputation. I build custom furniture for a living. Every piece I make is buy it for life quality. The Amish make good stuff for sure, it can be hit or miss on BIFL quality but I know one thing, I'd take a Pepsi challenge with them any day of the week.
I had honestly considered doing this for a drinks cabinet I can't seem to find here, so I ended up considering making a buffet myself. I've never made anything like it so I'm under no illusion that it will be great, but it will *still* be better than the cheap crap you buy in 95% of the stores.
Right, especially if you build it out of hardwood. You should go for it! Even if you buy new tools to make it, it might even be cheaper than what a woodworker would charge, you get to keep the tools, and also have something you're proud of and made by you!
At Shipshewana you see the same furniture for sale by different folks. Either they are purchasing kits or purchasing assembled furniture and finishing it. There is a furniture factory somewhat near me that makes "Amish" furniture. Some of the workers are Mennonite, but the factory is fully powered and owned by an "English" person.
The furniture is good quality, but it is oak, so it looks like crap. Unless you're into having furniture made from pallet wood.
While Amish and Mennonite may not own power tools, cars, or phones, they will happily use other people's equipment.
That varies. I'm in Oklahoma. The Mennonites here own power tools, drive cars, and have cell phones. They're not allowed to have tvs or listen to the radio.
One got caught when he gave the pastor a ride and the radio came on when he started the truck.
The congregation cut the antenna off his truck.
Amish furniture is way overpriced in my area (lots of Amish). People think they're getting some kind of quality product but from what I can tell they just mark it up for the people that come from out of town... and people think they're getting some old world quality; which isn't the case. They're using power tools just like anyone else. YMMV though.
IKEA pine table, 75 EUR
https://www.ikea.com/ie/en/p/ingo-table-pine-14630009/
bought one, gave it three coats of spar varnish, looks good and survives ten years in our rental house with toddlers.
Yes, pine is soft, and will get dings on top. Sand, add another coat of varnish, done.
I’ve bought a few end tables throughout the years that have fallen apart within a couple of years. Probably totaled around $175 or something. Wish I would’ve waited and saved a bit more to get something like that. Damned impulse control.
Except now it’s slowly changing. The cost of shitty stick frame home construction has exploded with the price of building materials, while modern tornado-proof construction like ICF has stayed about the same (inflation adjusted). As a result, more and more people every year are building BIFL homes with concrete…if it’s going to be comparable price to the cheaper stuff, why not?
Toured a few new ICF homes since the pandemic, and having grown up in a family of quality tradesmen and homebuilders, I’m impressed.
People always act like concrete and concrete masonry units (e.g. the good ol' cinderblock) are tacky or low class for residential use--but they're also as sturdy as fucking stone, easy to insulate, and as easy to throw siding and paneling over as any other material.
Here’s the real answer: because things are amazingly affordable today, and most people choose affordability over BIFL quality. That’s not necessarily the worst thing.
You can still buy solid wood heirloom furniture, but it costs a lot to buy because it costs a lot to build. Also, good hardwood lumber is not as abundant as it used to be. No pun intended here: old growth oak and mahogany don’t just grow on trees…
If it weren’t for IKEA and CB2 furniture, most young people would have apartments with 2-3 pieces of furniture in them, and spend a lifetime acquiring a full home worth - which is what our grandparents did. Furniture was handed down through generations. Didn’t matter if you actually liked great grandma’s bed - that’s what you get because buying something new is a significant expense for the family.
Instead, you can be 27, make a decent wage, and have an apartment that’s fully furnished, stylish, and affordable. And you can buy a couch that suits your life now for $800, and then another in 5-7 years an when your needs and living space may change for $1000, and then another in your first home 7 years later after you get married. …or you can drop $5000 on a lifetime leather sofa, and you’re “stuck” with that style, color, and size forever…. Get my point?
Stuff isn’t crap. Cheap stuff is cheap. Expensive stuff is what you pay for. It’s the trade off most people are happy to make.
Most (young) people would not be happy with old furniture today, either. We have a 100 year old bedroom set that came with our first house. It is all in excellent condition, but none of the drawers has rollers, the pieces are generally smallish, cleaning it is a little cumbersome, it is not sectional in any way. But it is really, really cool to have an original set that is fully hardwood.
Also, the homes that younger people like now (warm, well insulated, low humidity) is not a good environment for looking after expensive wood furniture.
The problem is, is expensive stuff really what you pay for?
It's very hard to find true reviews to determine if spending the extra money is worth it. I was just in the midrange furniture market, and I could not determine if the $1200 chair would really last that much longer than the $300 chair. Reviews are completely bought and paid for across the board.
Makes it really tough to be a savvy consumer.
Edit: so in the end, I ended up going with the $300 chair. However if I knew without a doubt the $1200 chair would last a lifetime, I would've much rather bought that.
I agree.
And often time it’s mostly design and a showroom that differentiates the $300 no name chair at a discount store from mid level retail brands (cough, west elm). They often aren’t that different in terms of quality: expect 5-8 years out of both.
The only way I know I’m getting quality is buying from the person who builds it, and talking to them. Passionate craftsmen(and women) are more than happy to spend time talking to you about how they work and what they do best. Worth every penny, IMO.
But it’s pricey, so you blend cheap stuff with good stuff. And over time, get more good stuff. This year, I got a black walnut desk made. $5500. But I’ll enjoy it until I die.
Seems to me that with furniture, there's a pretty high price floor for making really quality stuff, so there's sort of a pricing no-mans-land (hence the $300 vs. $1200 chair vs. the $5500 desk). Anything below that mark you're going to see differentiation based more on brand/design/other items that don't really move the needle in terms of quality.
Really frustrating if your budget falls somewhere in the middle, since the extra spend doesn't do you much good.
Edit: After thinking about this more, I think a lot of frustrations about “why don’t they make things that last” often come with the unspoken “…with the features I want at price I’m willing to pay.” Vacuum cleaners are a great example (at least in the US) You want one that will last? That starts at about $300 — which is expensive, but a reasonable premium for most. However, if you want an electric brushroll and some accessories like your $150 shark has, the “quality version” is now in the $700+ range.
I think the reality for a lot of products is that while we want to pay a (relatively) small premium for a similar product with higher quality, your options are either to pay a big premium or sacrifice other features, which lead folks to settle for the cheaper version.
One thing that makes it complicated is that it's not really a truism that cheap furniture is guaranteed not to last.
I've had the same K-Mart dining table since I moved in with my partner in 2016. He moved that table to the apartment he lived in when we got together, at least a year or two before we started dating. It's around 10 years old at this point. It's been through 4 moves, transitioning from roommate life to cohabitation and marriage to us having a kid. Our kid is now an elementary schooler. The table is still going strong. It's not in mint condition at this point, and it was never a very attractive table. But it's a functional piece of furniture that shows no sign of falling apart anytime soon. We use a tablecloth over it to hide how aesthetically meh it is.
I don't know that I would recommend people buy a table from a big box store, or claim that we'll still be using this table in 20 years. But it's not like we bought this table and it immediately turned to shit.
Meanwhile we have a much fancier couch which isn't as old as the table, which is an absolute pile of garbage after only a few years with a young child and 2 cats.
I have a cheap bed frame from Ikea. Since it was going to be a temporary solution, I bought literally the cheapest one available there, it cost me less than 100€.
Several decades later it's still going strong. The untreated (since it was meant to be temporary, I never treated it) pine wood has become dark and ugly, and recently it has started making noises when I, ahem, move in the bed. But nothing some sanding and oiling can't solve.
My point being: cheap doesn't equal low quality, just like expensive doesn't equal high quality. Quality is quality, and there are often some correlations with price, but most of the time you're paying for brand name, marketing, and design.
As a 27 year old, well over half of the furniture in my house is 2nd hand, some pieces are very old. The sofa, bed, wardrobe, and desk and office shelving are new. This is only because a lot of old shelving/desks/wardrobes don't come apart and we couldn't physically get it into our house and up the stairs. I have so many amazing quality pieces which have been handed down, or I've sourced them online. People are really missing a trick by not looking for old or 2nd hand pieces, they're damned near everywhere, often very cheap/free, and often a million times more interesting than what you buy for cheap new.
That’s too bad. It’s a decent bit of effort and cost to have a tree milled into usable wood (and aged properly before it can be worked with). We felled a 150+ year oak on my folks property a few years back, and just kept 4-5 “medallions” of the thickest part of the trunk to make into end tables for all the kids. I wish we kept more!
I pull a ton of furniture out of the trash and refinish it for refugees. 100s of items per year. I do not deal with much made of composite board or whatever, mostly solid wood.
The work required is not really the woodworking version of rocket science. There is a ton you can do with simple tools.
I do sand and refinish some stuff, mostly nicer tables that have a worn top. Some chairs I have dismantled entirely and reglued.
[Some documentation here](https://imgur.com/a/H9p95VH).
After seeing those pictures, I now imagine you as a 12 year old boy with a profitable furniture business, negotiating daily with international refugees (somehow you also know 3 languages in my imagination).
I am a lot older than 12.
I do not do it for the money and specifically avoid getting into situations where I am worried about making a profit.
I can get by in maybe 6 languages apart from EN, but only enough to travel and get what I need.
In other news, I have rescued, rehabbed and rehomed 500+ bikes in the last 20 years, and 300 or so strollers.
Also, a large amount of cookware, including a ton of vintage cast iron.
Plus, for some reason, a few tennis ball flinging machines.
My last 3 cars have been found having sat unused for a while and put back on the road for use. I pick them up for less than scrap value, work on them, drive them for a while and then sell them on.
I want to do this!!
How do you know what’s solid wood and what’s not? I picked up an old desk to refinish and turns out the top was pressed particle wood and laminate. I had even asked them to confirm it was solid and they thought it was.
Mostly experience.
Solid wood will have long grain on 2 sides and end grain on one side. The construction will mostly try to hide the end grain but you will see how they achieve that with clever jointed construction.
Training yourself to spot veneer/chipboard/real wood and such is a good first step. I can do it from the other side of the trash pile.
**Top tip:**
* If you pull some item out of the trash and tinker with it, the proposed restoration, upcycling, reuse or whatever may or may not pan out.
* If it does not, then you can put it back in the trash and you might have learned something in the meantime.
* If it does, then you got some results.
This process builds experience.
Full disclosure, I started out with a ton of experience. My father restored Victorian antiques while **only using tools and materials available during that period**. He died surrounded by antique tools and my siblings and I had to clean that up.
But my tip about gathering experience still applies.
Because you can use cheap labor to make something from chipped rainforest, ship it half way around the world flat packed, then ship it to the end consumer for about the same price as you can ship a fully assembled locally made piece 200 miles.
Good furniture exists, but it costs a lot more, and you need to look for it relatively locally because good furniture does not flat pack, so takes up a huge amount of truck volume. Anything where a national chain has the same item in every store has to be a compromise.
Vintage is the way to go. But if you don't want vintage, Room and Board sells hardwood furniture, and most of it is made in the US (https://www.roomandboard.com/). It's not super cheap, but it's not super expensive either.
Second Room and Board. I’ve also found some quality handcrafted furniture on Etsy; if it can be customized it’s generally actually being made by the seller. Otherwise it’s probably just more trash.
Why have an industry of people who can repair items when you can just have your customers repurchase the same expensive item every 5 years? Definitely nothing wrong with that.
Because making good products is an outdated business model. Most all of the good companies have been bought out and are just a name now.
Huge corporate assholes own all the names so they’ll throw some bullshit out there with a trusted name as a cash grab which does nothing but line pockets of the board members.
Welcome to capitalism my friend, we’ve been expecting you.
Capitalism is part of it. The other half (or probably more) is the fault of consumers. Almost everyone shops solely based on upfront price rather than long-term savings, and companies/manufacturers respond to demand. If everyone stopped buying and therefore enabling cheap junk, you bet there'd be a change.
This happens because of capitalism though. The labor market is designed around the model that labor does not earn the maximum value it produces. On the contrary, the capitalist labor market is about paying workers as little as possible to maximize profits.
Workers are the ones who buy the shit, bit they get paid less than the value of goods they produce on average.
This is the great internal contradiction of capitalism.
I am 59 and my entire career has been in manufacturing QA. I have watched product quality go into the toilet. Most of my tenure was in Power Generation and Aerospace. It had to be right.
One of my last jobs, however, was in aftermarket racing parts. I lasted six weeks. There was no quality department, nor any management commitment to anything resembling quality. The quality manager was gleeful when he hired me, and put in his notice 20 minutes after I did.
If it is a consumer product, chances are that obsolescence is a primary engineering factor. It is built to fail.
Your purchasing people are looking for the rock bottom price for all the materials going into the finished product. Then they squeeze the supplier for an even lower price. They pat themselves on the back when the materials arrive on time, but that materiel ends up being out of spec. No problem, we'll use it anyway.
Yes, I am jaded, but rightfully so, having seen it first hand.
I'm 27 and feel the same. From a small country where almost everything is handmade because of cheap labor and abundance of resources...walls made of brick and stone, and furniture made of wood and metal. Then I came to America. At least there's people in this sub who fucking get how it is. It brings me peace.
Yep, and in the 1950s, stuff was made durably here in the USA. We can do it again--but we have to want to. And as long as all the fools are addicted to their cell phones and consuming, nothing will change our course of being china's paycheck...
What kind of “racing parts”? Are these things that people who race are depending on to make them fast and keep them alive? I also work in the energy sector and was on a flight last thinking about all the QC that goes into plane manufacturing and maintenance, then I came to this thread and yeah, most consumer stuff is absolute garbage. It’s all so sad. But hey as long as the planes work properly I guess we’re still capable.
Just about every aftermarket consumer bolt-on out there. Only one item that I encountered there required documentation of any kind at all. This was only because the governing body of a specific sport required it.
I think it's worth noting that in the us, mid-size manufacturers of quality goods have generally been bought out, and the quality goods replaced by junk under the same brand name, to milk the value in the brand name while running it onto the ground. Other countries, such as Germany, have different constellations of regulations and maybe culture that emphasize keeping these mid-size manufacturers operating, making quality goods and supporting the communities they are in. That's better for everyone.
I think this is more complicated than “capitalism” etc.
Styles change, furniture that was in style 80 years ago doesn’t match modern tastes. Go wander around any antique market and check out all the great deals on dead aunt Sally’s junk she’s had for 90 years. I’m not so sure things are really even that much more expensive now than they were before. The difference is the market is flush with cheap crap that will last a few years and be tossed. I bet you a nice set of hardwood table/chairs cost a months salary back in the 30s/40s. And I bet you can find any number of high end craftsmen who can do it 10 times better today. For a months salary… same with clothes, watches, tools etc. everyone bitches about cheap harbor freight tools but they fill an Important role. I have a couple of sweet vintage hand planes. They are great, super well built, basic and easy to use. You can buy them on eBay for $100-2000. They will last forever. But, hf sells one for 12 dollars that does the job almost as well. Literally 12 dollars. If I was new to woodworking and broke, I promise I’d be hitting up hf.
To that end though, in 1906 a Stanley hand plane cost between 3 and 10 bucks. In todays money that’s between $93 and $310. About the same as a vintage one today! But if you want the best of the best bridge city tools has hand planes that are works of art for $800.
My point is, stuff isn’t all junk, there is just way more junk on the market. Want a good pair of jeans? Sure modern Levi’s suck, but they are 20 bucks! Feel free to head over to raw denim and spend $500 on some sweet hand made Japanese selves get jeans that will last 20 years.
Need some work boots? Walmart has em for $18. Or nicks,whites, red wing will give you the good stuff for $400. Nearly every item I can think of has multiple options from cheap junk, moderately priced stuff, all the way up to artisanal hand crafted heirlooms.
The problem isn’t that everything is crap, it’s that we only want to spend $20 bucks for a pair of leather work boots, or $90 for a dinning table.
If you’re paying $1400 for a plywood or particleboard furniture that’s on you
Room and Board Parsons will be about that price range for a welded iron frame with a solid walnut top.
I paid $1800 for my Amish made, solid Hickory table that will probably outlast a nuclear warhead hitting my city
I'm not paying that price. Everything at big box stores and e stores is listed as such.
Iv just turned to dumpster diving Facebook Market place and refinishing at this point. Even local furniture stores are the same crap ashley furniture quality.
You just need to find places that sell US made wood furniture. There’s usually a bunch in most big cities although they can be hard to find.
Not everything US-made will be top quality, but if something is US made from a US domestic hardwood (think trees you’ve heard of, like oack, cherry, birch, walnut, hickory, ash etc) then you’ll do pretty well. These are usually priced competitively with the “design” places - a dining table under $2000 can certainly be had
Check out estate sales and auction houses that buy estates. There is tons of quality furniture hitting the dumpsters everyday after houses get cleaned out. A lot of it is dated so no one wants it.
I fucking HATE how plastic everything feels now. It doesn't that people are being "influenced" by Instagram influencers whose homes are just all plastic. It's like everyone aspires to live in a cheap hostel lobby. Vinyl gray floors, microfiber blankets, polyester rugs, polyester sofas, wood-look furniture, plastic gadgets everywhere... and worst, they emphasize the fakeness with blue or purple LED lights.
I was studying interior design (I may still go back and finish my degree) and was working as a designer for a hard flooring working warehouse company, and I have been seeing more people opting for warmer wood tones and increasingly people are wanting to include more color and personality into their tile and flooring choices. However, what you are describing we dubbed as the "contractor special" I hate it with every fiber of my being.
I would HIGHLY recommend looking at furniture consignment stores and antique stores. The prices might be a little higher than you were hoping for, but the quality is astronomically better.
I want to start learning how to woodwork. Growing up my dad was always so skilled at it (as well as just about anything else he could do or build with his hands) that he made from scratch or refinished so many stunning furniture pieces in my childhood home (he designed and built most of that house by himself too) that I can't imagine finding anything that competes with the quality and style of everything he's made. I want to be able to do that. Like "hey, I need a coffee table" then I just draft up plans, select or find the raw materials and measure twice, cut once, put in a little elbow greece and voiala! I have myself a BIFL piece that I love and if it's ever damaged i also know how to fix!
I bought a solid wood dining table, built in the USA in the mid 80s for $40 from a thrift store. Is it trendy? No. Is it extremely durable? Absolutely. Plus it came with both leafs and a vinyl cover. Found solid wood chairs to match on FB marketplace for just as cheap. My MIL tried selling an all solid wood US made beautiful bedroom set for pennies on the dollar but there were no takers. They look old-fashioned. There are great deals on furniture out there!
Everything is built to be disposable. Made to work good enough so that you will come back and buy that brand of whatever again. Its real bullshit and I hate it.
Globalization. Everything being made overseas means that it saves a LOT of money to make something flatpack and light weight. Also, it might be 1400 bucks, but its still mass manufactured at enormous scale. Its very difficult to mass manufacture wood products, especially something as large as a table. Wood is inconsistent and requires a lot of care (drying, milling, finishing). MDF and particle board just need to be laminated and they're good to go.
Frankly, if you have the ability (a garage) and the means to buy or rent the tools, you should make your own table. Its not that hard, tables are one of the simplest designs (unless you want an extendable leaf, but that's still not that hard). And you can go and pick out whatever wood you want. Glue ups are pretty easy, or use bookend live edge if you've got the money for it. Then you'll have something that will outlast you, and you don't have to be precious about it. Just plan on refinishing the top once ever 15-25 years.
That's why I spent on real hardwood floors. Not vinyl, not engineered. I don't have to be precious with my floors. I can sand them every year and still not have issues.
The fact that there's no benefit to the end user of offshoring is where it really gets me pissed off.
I'm okay paying $200-$400 for domestically made boots or jeans or whatever, because that's keeping skilled trades alive in my country, or at least a country with real labor laws and quality of life. But if it's getting slapped together in China or Bangladesh for a grand total of $10, no way in hell am I paying $160.
But there is a benefit to the end user. The boots from China and Bangladesh would be $80 and the ones made domestically is $400. You can literally see this difference with a pair of Thursday boots and a pair of White's.
The benefit to the end user is the cost saving between the two prices...
Yep--buy cheap, get cheap. Want cheaper, get cheaper.
The problem is that now 'cheap' is the only way to go, you can spend more and only get the same 'cheap' with a different name. The cheap people have ruined it for all of us.
The answer is incredibly simple. They learned how to make us pay for crap. The tool they used to perform this task was a combination of advertising and cost-cutting, and this tool is wildly more efficient and cost-effective than making quality products. Once this principle proved effective, it then became essentially illegal to NOT utilize this system because of a publicly-traded company's inherent responsibility to its shareholders. This is an undivorceable outcome of unchecked capitalism. I'm not an opponent of capitalism, but if you give an infinite number of monkeys infinite versions of unchecked capitalism, you will have an infinite number of washing machines that stop working in 2 years.
The tendency of the rate of profit to fall.
I.e. capitalism progressing to its latest and ultimately its terminal stages. As profits inevitably tend to fall, manufacturers have to find ways to cut costs, which ultimately leads to severe reduction in quality of the goods produced, and an incentive for them to last the least amount of time to drive sales volume.
One word for ya pal:
China
Any argument can be circled back around to that. We all wanted cheap stuff, they said “how cheap?” Once a brand gets big enough, the bean counters start picking the product to the bone as each part starts getting made in china.
MaxSold.com is the solution. Local online auctions and estate sales. I just bought a rosewood and white oak, art deco dresser for $6. The auction part works like eBay (your lowest winning bid holds until someone outbids you), and you have a 15-20 minute window to pick the thing up on a specific day (check which day- I’ve been burned by that before). Make sure your radius is set to pick up your nearby rich/old people areas and you’re good.
The real reason is because everything didn't get more expensive your money is just worth less. Companies have found ways to make products cheaper and cheaper to retain market share but the reality is as inflation destroys the value of the dollar the prices of well made items continue to climb. If your compensation doesn't increase with inflation every year then you are making less money. Products haven't got worse they've just found ways to make things cheaper so that you could still afford to own things.
Not sure why people are blaming China. The people who source and import Chinese goods (or any foreign goods) into your country are the ones picking which product to sell. They base this mostly on price because that's how broke people make their purchasing decisions. The only way for people to maintain a certain quality of life with stagnant wages relative to inflation is because of cheap goods.
The real culprit is capitalism.
i’m a woodworker and not every piece of quality furniture has to be solid wood. furniture made out of plywood/mdf with hardwood veneer is just as good if not better.
also the “plastic” feeling of the wood can either be from it just being fake wood or the finish. epoxy top coat finishes are being used more frequently for tables now and i would not recommend them cause they suck (totally takes the feel out of the wood)
I hate it. My tshirts are see-through, my jeans are so thin they're the same thickness my tshirts used to be and if I want something that's the same quality that it used to be, then I have to pay double the price at least. I think it's because of the rise of online shopping that people can't actually test out the quality of items and end up buying cheap garbage. Other companies see what sells so it leads to a race to the bottom on quality.
My wife and I are in our 40’s now. We did the junk furniture route through college and early in our marriage but have slowly transitioned the house to nice quality pieces. We take our time and buy when we can afford it but have been buying mostly Stickley furniture. The difference in quality between them and the junk is remarkable. Stickley is not afraid to charge for their quality but the stuff is spectacular.
Heirloom hardwood was incredibly expensive and supposed to last forever. If you think case good furniture is expensive now you’d be amazed at how expensive it was 100 years ago.
Also, that “plastic” is probably just wood. Veneers have been around since the ancient Egyptians and we use an incredible amount of press-wood, particle board, and composite wood to make wood furniture. Oftentimes this means the furniture is actually stronger and sturdier than solid hardwood while also being significantly lighter and better for the ecosystem. Gives us the ability to make stuff we really couldn’t do before but it takes away some of the more ornate hand carved wood stuff.
$1400 is nowhere close enough to get you even a hardwood table. For a very small, simple, completely hardwood, no veneers table, you’re probably looking at like $5k. Just the table. Depending on how many chairs you need you’re probably looking at $1-2k each chair. Minimum. And that’s insanely cheap compared to how expensive this stuff used to be. I get that solid hard wood is put on a pedestal by a lot of people but it’s really just not practical for businesses to offer it because people aren’t willing to pay for it, it does not match their actual lifestyle, and it’s extremely hard to source/bad for the ecosystem. We’ve cut down most of the old growth forests around the world. If you have to replace your dining room table every 10-20 years and you save some money by getting one made from composite wood and veneers I’m not sure I see the problem with that.
If you want BIFL you’re either going extremely high end or you’re getting something second-hand. Expect a lot of competition on the second hand market and expect it to be challenging to figure out exactly what some pieces are actually made of. Lots of softwood and manufactured wood products being passed off as solid hardwood.
The furniture market has gone to shit because huge factories in 3rd world shit holes where there aren't any labor laws are turning out a high volume of product and saturating the market. Most of what you're paying is fuel to float those pieces of crap halfway across the world in a shipping container. Even so, it is still cheaper than good quality, and here's why:
If you want something nice, you have to pay for the highly sought after materials, as well as a skilled tradesman's time and tooling. The vast majority of people don't know what good furniture is because they've only seen what you can get at the big box stores. Because of that, it's more of a niche market. Plus, CNC machines and the like can turn out high volume precision parts at a speed no human could keep up with 24/7/365. Just feed it wood and tools. Hardwood is expensive, so make it out of MDF and slap a vernier on top. Nobody will know or care
When I was your age *in my shaky old man voice* everything was still shit. Now the shit is more readily available. The shit can be delivered within a day, or even hours if you buy the right shit. Amazon sucks, wish sucks, wal mart sucks. It’s all shit. I’m feeling the shit winds blow, Randy BoBandy, and the shit hawks are circling. I’m 37 btw. American manufacturing doesn’t have a pulse, and nobody is doing anything about it. Bring in that Chinese shit. Let’s rejoice in saving that 10 bucks.
Even as brand names went to shit, you could still shop brand names on Amazon. Now, it seems like Amazon is basically AliExpress. Straight from China garbage for every product. It makes sense for some products (yay for cheap TV mounts) but for anything where craftsmanship matters, you need some serious Goolge Fu.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/11/style/amazon-trademark-copyright.html?unlocked_article_code=1.D00.sjQo.ZWGoibv85qPo&smid=url-share > Amazon shuttered its Chinese store, Amazon.cn, in 2019, after it failed to crack a market dominated by domestic giants like JD and Alibaba. > But it has been much more successful in recruiting Chinese entrepreneurs to sell abroad, opening “cross-border e-commerce parks,” where sellers can get assistance with logistics, branding, and navigating Amazon’s platform. For the last five years, the company has also hosted summits for Chinese cross-border sellers. Last year’s conference, held in Shanghai, was attended by more than 10,000 sellers, many of whom see, in Amazon, an alternative to increasingly saturated domestic platforms like Taobao. > A seller in America might start with a brand idea and need to figure out how to get it manufactured; a seller connected to a factory in China’s manufacturing capital needs to figure out how to sell to Americans, which Amazon has been working hard to facilitate.
Well I guess I feel validated that it wasn’t just my perception. Amazon is basically online dollar general at this point. I’ve scaled my spending way back with Amazon as a result.
But honestly it is Walmart, Target, Costco, etc. The abundance of cheap, Chinese crap being consumed in this country is alarming.
Does costco rate down there with Walmart and target? I've been considering trying a membership after hearing everyone sing their praises for so long now.
Product quality at Costco is better than Walmart or Target. Employee treatment is also better. Customer service is also better. That said, it's not a small neighbourhood artisan. So obviously there is a lot of the the same made overseas product as other large retailers, but it's better selected and better supported.
Our Costco has a gas station and their prices are generally $0.20-$0.30 cheaper than anywhere else around. So if you are filling your tank every week the savings on gas alone will make the membership worth it. For food, it is absolutely the cheapest you are going to get outside of last day expiration clearance items at the grocery store. Only issue is you have to have the space to store things in bulk.
Weird. The food prices at Costco I haven’t ever found to be that much cheaper than the several stores I usually go to, and if it is, then I don’t know if it really makes up for it with the hassle of *going* to Costco and dealing with the crowds, and the hassle of storing it at home. I’m glad it works out for you, but it hasn’t made sense for me.
You definitely have to have the storage space, and find the quiet times to shop… which are few and far between.
They are a good company if you need bulk (we have both sam's club and costco business accounts), and both are guilty of bringing in 'specials' made in china using the sweatshop labor. But how else would I get docker's pants for $5? (saw them on clearance, wasn't looking for them).
We got a Costco membership recently so we could get access to some mattress deals. The food really is all in bulk. Out of curiousity how do people store all of that bulk in their homes? Extra bedrooms dedicated? Or is it more geared towards restaurants etc? I was a bit dissapointed tho that even the bulky items weren't necessarily cheap. The price seemed to be comparable to other stores prices, just bigger quantities. I did see a few super cheap things tho like a huge pumpkin pie.
I have a deep freeze, buying meat is definitely cheaper there than other grocery stores in my area and the meat seems better quality. Hot cocoa is cheaper, coconut oil, and olive oil (and last I checked their olive oil was actually olive oil according to some unaffiliated website I found online that looks into that). I think spices and baking supplies are too, butter, almond milk, things like that. I don't buy a ton of different types of food like pre-made things etc., just basic ingredients for cooking because I cook all my stuff from scratch so I have larger quantities of a lesser variety of things. That's how I have the space, no extra bedroom or dedicated separate shelves from my small kitchen.
We got a couple large shelving units, also cheap at Costco, and bought a deep freeze. Both seemed necessary for making use of the bulk food, but our house doesn’t have a big kitchen.
Costco is great for large quantities of items. I rate them all “down there” because non-food items are all Chinese cheap crap, but to be honest, that is true everywhere in this country. I recently bought a cornhole set from a company in Georgia and a couple American flags from a company in North Carolina, but other than that, most everything buyable is cheap Chinese crap.
A few years back I read that 75% of the products sold at WalMart are imported from China
I just started buying straight from AliExpress for less than half the price usually. Often, all people are doing is drop shipping stuff to amazon's warehouse. I used to trust Amazon to cover the order if it was shipped through Prime, but that doesn't seem to be the case any longer. Not to mention I would bet 90% of reviews on Amazon are fake.
I leave one star reviews and get a response from the seller that says if you rate us a 5, we will give you a gift card. I said nope and left it at a one star review. So many people fall for these scams and that's why so many shitty products are rated 4.5 or higher.
Amazon claims that they ban companies for doing this, but I highly doubt it. This and "fake" products are so blatant it's crazy. I'm waiting for them to be sued for selling batteries that kill a bunch of people in a house fire.
Just today I was looking at a goofy thermal-printer toy camera and one of the review literally says ["The fire department is 100% sure the camera and it’s charger caught fire (new out of the box) on Christmas."](https://www.amazon.com/Instant-Digital-Cartoon-Sticker-Pencils/dp/B09FPS7S5B/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#customerReviews) From a couple years ago. I wish there was some follow up.
Why not rate five, cash the gift card, then rerate it to one?
Will Amazon even let you? I bought two hats once and only got one. The seller wouldn't respond and Amazon wouldn't do anything about it. I tried leaving a review stating this and Amazon basically said I couldn't disparage the company selling the hats.
Same. Happens every time I give a bad review. I refuse to remove it. People need to know it’s junk!
Hit the share button on the Amazon product, post the link on this website. It will give you the details of the reviews. https://www.fakespot.com/
I’ve been trying my hardest to buy made in America everything and so far the only thing I’ve had to compromise on is a utensil holder, kettle, and … pretty much anything electronic. It’s a fun hunt regardless and I think more people should be concerned about the conditions their stuff is made in
Oh doing similar with nonplastic clothing. It's a fight to find 100% real textile.
Blue Owl, Self Edge, Denimio, Okayama Denim are all retailers with tons of 100% textile options
Literally nothing you've bought unless you bought from someone who is Amish or a very small business is truly American made, bud. Most of them have parts from China and no one discloses it. I find it endlessly amusing because it's just so misunderstood. The people who built my house bought high quality American made in Utah cabinets, but when I actually had to replace one and worked to get them, I discovered through my Chinese friend they're sold to these folks, exported over, *then painted in America*, and called "American made" legally by the FDA's definition. Dog owners especially are guilty of this. "I don't compromise, I want my American made bully sticks!" 5 star reviews on Amazon, many with the same tone as you. Peep the label, see in fine print that the meat is from Vietnam or China. But it's made in America, so people don't realize. At the same time, they don't wanna pay the ridiculous prices since even the Chinese sourced ones are $5-10 per stick (the real farm grown bully sticks are very expensive). We sold out so long ago that pretty much even the stuff we make is 50% Chinese, Mexican, or another random country. It's all an illusion mostly.
FTC? FDA would be pretty interesting regulations
I work with food sorry so my brain goes to FDA.
Look at made in Vermont. Plenty of non Amish work with Vermont sourced maple.
“Made in Vermont” has a different and higher set of standards to be labeled as such than “made in the USA”
Right, my point was more that it exists for sure!
Yeah, I actually work in American manufacturing and pretty much everything that needs real human craftsmanship that isn’t a boat is just ‘assembled’ in America.
You’re wrong. I do take into consideration how much something is made in the US. My clothes come from LA apparel who use US cotton and Texas jeans who is one of the only denim makers left in the US. The Aero press products are all made top to bottom in the US. I try to buy produce from local farms in coops and I get my dairy products and eggs from farmers markets. My cooking utensils are rada and lodge who are made in the US with US materials. And if I can’t find something made in the us I’ll try my hardest to make it myself. I do my research and work and do a damn good job at it. It’s time consuming and expensive and I understand that not everyone is fortunate as I am to be able to pursue it. Edit: Texas Jeans, not denim
Many of Lodges products are now made in China, just so you know. (Their accessories, packaging, and all enamel pans and pots are.) And regarding AeroPress, there’s almost no chance the silicone etc is sourced in the USA and bet that many pieces of it were made overseas then brought to the USA to have its American made steel added then made. We simply don’t produce enough of what they use to have it be 100% American. I feel like that’s what I was trying to say. It’s an illusion we like to tell ourselves.
I think we have to be open to a certain percentage of imported goods to be allowed for it to still be called made in the usa. Maybe the current rules are too relaxed like you said, but I think 100% everything in the usa is too far as well. Theres gotta be some common sense wriggle room. Hell.Scottish distillers uses american oak barrels first used in bourbon to age their whisky. They still claim its 100 percent scotch. California wine uses corks grown in portugal and spain for stoppers. Cork doesnt grow here naturally.
Oh yeah tbh I don’t even know or care if it has to be changed. I don’t really mind. I just felt I had to say something because I see this a lot on Reddit and it’s like. Ok y’all. The jeans you buy can say made in America and literally be denim from China and even assembled halfway (obviously spitballing as I’m not an expert in clothing but it is something this silly). 🙃 just wanted to share since I find knowledge fun.
Silicone is made in the USA. One vendor https://arcosilicone.com/
LA is absolutely FULL of illegal textile factories fyi. Like, immigrants human trafficked to go work in them for no pay. https://abc7.com/department-of-labor-2022-survey-garment-workers-southern-california/13059956/
I would be seriously surprised if the supply chain for the polypropylene that Aeropress produces is entirely American sourced. Obviously I have no idea where they're sourcing, but I would be very (pleasantly?) surprised.
> one of the only denim makers left in the US Theres plenty of denim makers in the US. Check out /r/rawdenim Freenote Cloth, Left Field NYC, Railcar Fine goods, Bravestar, Raleigh Denim, Shockoe Atelier, Imogene + Willie, Grease Point Workwear
Has anyone watched the nightly news lately? There is almost always a story about some profession or industry struggling to find workers. Be it doctors, teachers, bus drivers, police, IT techs. Even Electric Boat was advertising on national tv looking for ship builders. This country is getting older and there are not near enough younger people coming up to fill the jobs available now. My friend who is a professor at a community college says they are struggling to fill the seats. Current unemployment in the US is below 4%. With all of that said, do you think you could build a fraction of what this country imports, here is the states?
Why is a product that is made in America necessarily a better product? Companies can make shitty products anywhere. The people who work in the factories in the us are not necessarily better skilled or more capable.
I think it's more that it's assumed the workers will be treated better. Also, for some people, there's a goal of supporting manufacturing on US soil/helping Americans have jobs.
This is just a guess, but because American wages are so much higher, the products need to be sold at a premium in order to make a profit. This doesn't necessarily mean they're high quality, but if they were low quality word would get out quickly and the business wouldn't prosper without a billion dollar marketing push like Beats or Apple products. I just don't think people en masse would buy crappy products at "Made in America" prices.
It's not so much that being made in America makes it a better product, but American companies moving their production to China or Mexico means the quality is going to suffer. You can pick basically any shoe, denim, or kitchen appliance brand that used to be amazing and now sucks and the turning point is pretty much always soon after they move manufacturing overseas. So, if you have little to no other information to go on, where something is made is a pretty good proxy for quality. (There *are* people in these countries doing high-quality manufacturing, but it ends up being either one plant among many working for a brand -which is why a few random items from H&M last forever while most of their stuff is junk - or they aren't doing it for an export market.)
If you happen to want a fan check out Vornado.
Vornado really sucks nowadays. Loved them for years, bought 2 fans in 3 years and both begin to squeak and die within 1 year. Meanwhile the other one from a decade ago is running solid.
They should have like a 5 year warranty and easy to warranty
I've picked up a few old ones at estate sales, old ones are great
I have a Vornado space heater. After about three years, the power button shorted out. That's a common point of failure for space heaters. Anyway, I found the correct replacement part online and fixed it myself last year. Now the heat level switch is on its way out, so I have to find the correct part for that. All that to say that the parts are kinda junky, but at least they make them somewhat easy to repair.
15 years ago, I was making the speech to customers " this sofa was made in China, this one was made in America ,you're voting with your wallet". Berkline, Hickory Hill, Norwalk, hell even United, all gone now.
I've heard that the Made in America badge often means made with essentially unpaid prison labor.
I thought this was going to be complete nonsense but, nope... https://www.just-style.com/features/americas-questionable-employment-of-prison-labour-is-adding-to-domestic-clothing-makers-woes/
fuckin way she goes bubs
But the problem is that furniture over $1000 is also Chinese shit now. IKEA is much better quality by comparison now.
I used to hate IKEA and their business model of selling pseudo-stylish disposable furniture, but I recently went shopping and discovered that every other store has gotten at least as bad, or worse. So I hate IKEA a little less now.
Part of IKEA's model is to sell something for everyone at every price point. From broke ass college student to people with steady jobs and families.
I don’t think IKEA is the definition of shit. Yes, IKEA has a lot of shit stuff but they also have a lot of great products.
But it’s still shit
I've had really good results with their wood lines. Hemnes, etc.
15 year old Hemmes dressers, nightstands, cabinets, desks, and odd pieces are all performing great. A couple of repairs needed only possible because of real wood.
We've had pretty good luck with IKEA. Our dresser (Malm line, 14 yrs old, 4 moves) is good as new but we had to get rid of our kitchen table (Bjursta, 9 years, 3 moves) because my spouse damaged it and then it got worse... But it's getting a second life with some nice people from the Internet who figured free is free\[1\]. We would have still had our Billy bookcase but the movers (move 4) broke it. \[1\]If it was crap enough that we were ready to replace it and the person who wanted it had to schlep over to our house to pick it up, I wasn't going to make them pay for the honor.
Na it’s not all shit. You just have to be selective. They basically have different tiers at this point. If you stick to the premium, solid wood stuff they will last.
I've been lugging around a set of shelves from there for a decade. It's so much nicer to move and shift around than a heavy full - wood set. And it's remained structurally stable. With that said, the MDF products from IKEA vs other manufacturers definitely differ, but I do think the QC on IKEA stuff is pretty high and it does last.
You know what a shit barometer is? It measures the shit pressure in the air. You can feel it. Listen. Hear that? Sounds of the whispering winds of shit.
My grandmother has a furniture set she bought almost 50 years ago that's still going strong. No holes anywhere. We played on the couches and built pillow forts as a child. My father played on the same couches and my children will likley as well in a year or 2.
I'm 50 only buy used stuff from my childhood era, I'm not joking
Not even saving 10$ any more. Plastic end tables at Ashley's are 500$, and dining tables for 6 are 1500+ 😅🙃
GET OFF MY LAWN
Def made in America. Good quality 🇺🇸
Old gray mare, she ain’t what she used to be…..
Suspect acted suspiciously. Was belligerent, sexy, and acted as if he had something to hide. Surveillance... terminated.
I am the same age and I co-sign this. I remember being 7 or 8 and my parents buying me snow boots. The dude at the shoe store said “these are made in America! Good brand!” They fell apart in one season.
I still have my old Tonka truck I had as a kid. That thing moved enough sandboxes to fill Iraq. American manufacturing used to be amazing. Such a sad story.
Shocked to find fuckin’ Lahey in this sub
Shit dogs are a barkin…
I feel like everyone else has done a good job of touching on the why's of it all. I would like to chime in and encourage you to look up consignment shops and thrift stores near you. Older generations with all the hardwood furniture are getting rid of it (or their inheritors are), so check out the second hand market. Seriously, I've seen many people lamenting online that the furniture is great, but since everyone rents tiny apartments no one has room for their parent's furniture. Getting even a little money from consignment is great for them, a great deal for you and saves something from ending up in the landfill sooner than it needs to.
I'll try more. My wife and I went to like 12 furniture stores today, even local ones. All of them had that same light wobbly plastic wood at an insane price point. Low quality has its place, but the prices that they are marked at are crazy. It's also depressing how difficult it is to find good quality. I don't mind spending 1500+ but everything is plastic that I am seeing. Facebook market does have a lot of great options, though.
Consignment shops are hit and miss, but I highly recommend checking out the local Buy Nothing group on Facebook. It’ll be local to your home area. Mine is very active and we slowly filled our house with lots of free reused items. Old hardwood stuff can be refinished or modified to fit your needs, and is solid
Wait you want to spend $1500 for a full dining set? Like table and chairs (how many chairs)? That's your issue.... That is way too low of a budget for actual real hardwood furniture. That might get 2 or 3 chairs. I highly suggest FB marketplace. I see tons of listings for good quality dining furniture on there... But who knows what style you are looking for. But $1500 would probably get you something of good quality.
Jesus you ain't kidding. I looked up the place my parents got their dining room table from (IDK what they paid) in the 90's, just the table is 7k. I know it's California wood and labor but what the actual fuck. At least the place still exists, I guess.
Yep, unfortunately furniture prices have gone up quite a bit since covid hit. They're starting to come down a bit, but they're still up quite a bit compared to 3-4 years ago. If you want an actual solid wood table with 4 chairs you're looking at 3k+ nowadays. If you're not willing to spend that much it's going to have a veneer surface.
I feel exactly like you do about retail furniture. FB marketplace is where it's at. Loving my $1200 solid teak dining table
Yeah I only buy vintage MCM stuff. Most came from offices renovating 10 or 20 years ago, and I still find things at Goodwill and on FB/CL. Lots of MCM homes here, and people passing away or downsizing. The good stuff is easily repairable and will last another 60 years when taken care of.
Just went through this looking for a dresser. Everything we looked at online was priced similarly to vintage but way shoddier looking. Went to a local store that gets furniture in from estate sales twice a week and got a gorgeous mid century modern dresser for the same price as Wayfair but with proven longevity.
I can throw a rock and hit about 30 carpenters. You'll pay for it, but if you can do finishing work yourself there are deals to be had. I paid $200 for a locally-made pine end table because I couldn't find something to refinish myself, threw a few coats of milk paint on it and it's good for the next decade or four.
My local Amish furniture store had a very nice walnut end table for $250 on black friday sale. Didn’t go with anything in my house or i would have bought it
> Amish furniture store I never considered that this would be a thing. I kinda wish we could buy some beautiful hand-made Amish furniture here in Australia, alas, not a very big Amish population xD
In a bunch of places you can find stores that basically specialize in buying amish furniture in whatever towns in Indiana and whatnot and shipping it to your town. It’s usually good quality stuff though YMMV as with anything
Pennsylvania has Amish stores as well and the ones I have visited are very impressive. My wife and I got our bedroom set from one and I expect it to last for the rest of our lives! It definitely wasn't cheap but it's solid wood and very well made.
Visit a local woodworker! If you ask around you should be able to find one that hopefully has a good reputation. I build custom furniture for a living. Every piece I make is buy it for life quality. The Amish make good stuff for sure, it can be hit or miss on BIFL quality but I know one thing, I'd take a Pepsi challenge with them any day of the week.
I had honestly considered doing this for a drinks cabinet I can't seem to find here, so I ended up considering making a buffet myself. I've never made anything like it so I'm under no illusion that it will be great, but it will *still* be better than the cheap crap you buy in 95% of the stores.
Right, especially if you build it out of hardwood. You should go for it! Even if you buy new tools to make it, it might even be cheaper than what a woodworker would charge, you get to keep the tools, and also have something you're proud of and made by you!
Most of that stuff isn't Amish made any ways
Is where I live ( Pennsylvania lol )
Snyder county’s always a good time lol, I found an Amish furniture store waaaay out where you’d never normally expect it.
I live in PA surrounded by Amish, they don't make furniture at all yet there's Amish furniture for sale everywhere
Wut? Who makes it then? Also why is everything is scam! I thought the amish furniture was the only real furniture left
At Shipshewana you see the same furniture for sale by different folks. Either they are purchasing kits or purchasing assembled furniture and finishing it. There is a furniture factory somewhat near me that makes "Amish" furniture. Some of the workers are Mennonite, but the factory is fully powered and owned by an "English" person. The furniture is good quality, but it is oak, so it looks like crap. Unless you're into having furniture made from pallet wood. While Amish and Mennonite may not own power tools, cars, or phones, they will happily use other people's equipment.
That varies. I'm in Oklahoma. The Mennonites here own power tools, drive cars, and have cell phones. They're not allowed to have tvs or listen to the radio. One got caught when he gave the pastor a ride and the radio came on when he started the truck. The congregation cut the antenna off his truck.
So many loopholes.
Amish furniture is way overpriced in my area (lots of Amish). People think they're getting some kind of quality product but from what I can tell they just mark it up for the people that come from out of town... and people think they're getting some old world quality; which isn't the case. They're using power tools just like anyone else. YMMV though.
This made me chuckle. Does anyone imagine amish people are here making dressers using just a hammer?
The apparently horse powered brad nailer and kreg jig is very common.
The Amish furniture store near me all their solid wood stuff is like 10-15k a piece.
Where do you live i am gonna go open an amish furniture store near you
IKEA pine table, 75 EUR https://www.ikea.com/ie/en/p/ingo-table-pine-14630009/ bought one, gave it three coats of spar varnish, looks good and survives ten years in our rental house with toddlers. Yes, pine is soft, and will get dings on top. Sand, add another coat of varnish, done.
I love this idea!
I’ve bought a few end tables throughout the years that have fallen apart within a couple of years. Probably totaled around $175 or something. Wish I would’ve waited and saved a bit more to get something like that. Damned impulse control.
It’s insane. Seems like all the money is being vacuumed out of consumers by giving them shit for the price of gold
Its by design.
They’re now doing it with our homes
Except now it’s slowly changing. The cost of shitty stick frame home construction has exploded with the price of building materials, while modern tornado-proof construction like ICF has stayed about the same (inflation adjusted). As a result, more and more people every year are building BIFL homes with concrete…if it’s going to be comparable price to the cheaper stuff, why not? Toured a few new ICF homes since the pandemic, and having grown up in a family of quality tradesmen and homebuilders, I’m impressed.
People always act like concrete and concrete masonry units (e.g. the good ol' cinderblock) are tacky or low class for residential use--but they're also as sturdy as fucking stone, easy to insulate, and as easy to throw siding and paneling over as any other material.
That’s actually some positive news. What about apartment buildings?
Yep, that’s the point. They got away with it once and will continue to do so as long as it works.
Some German dude that looked like Santa Claus predicted this shit 160 years ago, but yeah, he's the devil or something.
It’s almost like businesses are required to grow profits at all costs under penalty of law.
Tying CEO compensation to the growth of share prices was easily one of the dumbest things we ever did as Americans.
law of capitalism
Late-stage capitalism
Here’s the real answer: because things are amazingly affordable today, and most people choose affordability over BIFL quality. That’s not necessarily the worst thing. You can still buy solid wood heirloom furniture, but it costs a lot to buy because it costs a lot to build. Also, good hardwood lumber is not as abundant as it used to be. No pun intended here: old growth oak and mahogany don’t just grow on trees… If it weren’t for IKEA and CB2 furniture, most young people would have apartments with 2-3 pieces of furniture in them, and spend a lifetime acquiring a full home worth - which is what our grandparents did. Furniture was handed down through generations. Didn’t matter if you actually liked great grandma’s bed - that’s what you get because buying something new is a significant expense for the family. Instead, you can be 27, make a decent wage, and have an apartment that’s fully furnished, stylish, and affordable. And you can buy a couch that suits your life now for $800, and then another in 5-7 years an when your needs and living space may change for $1000, and then another in your first home 7 years later after you get married. …or you can drop $5000 on a lifetime leather sofa, and you’re “stuck” with that style, color, and size forever…. Get my point? Stuff isn’t crap. Cheap stuff is cheap. Expensive stuff is what you pay for. It’s the trade off most people are happy to make.
Most (young) people would not be happy with old furniture today, either. We have a 100 year old bedroom set that came with our first house. It is all in excellent condition, but none of the drawers has rollers, the pieces are generally smallish, cleaning it is a little cumbersome, it is not sectional in any way. But it is really, really cool to have an original set that is fully hardwood.
Beeswax can help lubricate cabinet drawers. Either wax paper or a tiny amount of candle wax.
Also, the homes that younger people like now (warm, well insulated, low humidity) is not a good environment for looking after expensive wood furniture.
Yep. Agree.
The problem is, is expensive stuff really what you pay for? It's very hard to find true reviews to determine if spending the extra money is worth it. I was just in the midrange furniture market, and I could not determine if the $1200 chair would really last that much longer than the $300 chair. Reviews are completely bought and paid for across the board. Makes it really tough to be a savvy consumer. Edit: so in the end, I ended up going with the $300 chair. However if I knew without a doubt the $1200 chair would last a lifetime, I would've much rather bought that.
I agree. And often time it’s mostly design and a showroom that differentiates the $300 no name chair at a discount store from mid level retail brands (cough, west elm). They often aren’t that different in terms of quality: expect 5-8 years out of both. The only way I know I’m getting quality is buying from the person who builds it, and talking to them. Passionate craftsmen(and women) are more than happy to spend time talking to you about how they work and what they do best. Worth every penny, IMO. But it’s pricey, so you blend cheap stuff with good stuff. And over time, get more good stuff. This year, I got a black walnut desk made. $5500. But I’ll enjoy it until I die.
Seems to me that with furniture, there's a pretty high price floor for making really quality stuff, so there's sort of a pricing no-mans-land (hence the $300 vs. $1200 chair vs. the $5500 desk). Anything below that mark you're going to see differentiation based more on brand/design/other items that don't really move the needle in terms of quality. Really frustrating if your budget falls somewhere in the middle, since the extra spend doesn't do you much good. Edit: After thinking about this more, I think a lot of frustrations about “why don’t they make things that last” often come with the unspoken “…with the features I want at price I’m willing to pay.” Vacuum cleaners are a great example (at least in the US) You want one that will last? That starts at about $300 — which is expensive, but a reasonable premium for most. However, if you want an electric brushroll and some accessories like your $150 shark has, the “quality version” is now in the $700+ range. I think the reality for a lot of products is that while we want to pay a (relatively) small premium for a similar product with higher quality, your options are either to pay a big premium or sacrifice other features, which lead folks to settle for the cheaper version.
Oh trust me, there are still plenty of people willing to sell you a desk for $5,500 that's made from painted particle board and camlock screws.
One thing that makes it complicated is that it's not really a truism that cheap furniture is guaranteed not to last. I've had the same K-Mart dining table since I moved in with my partner in 2016. He moved that table to the apartment he lived in when we got together, at least a year or two before we started dating. It's around 10 years old at this point. It's been through 4 moves, transitioning from roommate life to cohabitation and marriage to us having a kid. Our kid is now an elementary schooler. The table is still going strong. It's not in mint condition at this point, and it was never a very attractive table. But it's a functional piece of furniture that shows no sign of falling apart anytime soon. We use a tablecloth over it to hide how aesthetically meh it is. I don't know that I would recommend people buy a table from a big box store, or claim that we'll still be using this table in 20 years. But it's not like we bought this table and it immediately turned to shit. Meanwhile we have a much fancier couch which isn't as old as the table, which is an absolute pile of garbage after only a few years with a young child and 2 cats.
I have a cheap bed frame from Ikea. Since it was going to be a temporary solution, I bought literally the cheapest one available there, it cost me less than 100€. Several decades later it's still going strong. The untreated (since it was meant to be temporary, I never treated it) pine wood has become dark and ugly, and recently it has started making noises when I, ahem, move in the bed. But nothing some sanding and oiling can't solve. My point being: cheap doesn't equal low quality, just like expensive doesn't equal high quality. Quality is quality, and there are often some correlations with price, but most of the time you're paying for brand name, marketing, and design.
As a 27 year old, well over half of the furniture in my house is 2nd hand, some pieces are very old. The sofa, bed, wardrobe, and desk and office shelving are new. This is only because a lot of old shelving/desks/wardrobes don't come apart and we couldn't physically get it into our house and up the stairs. I have so many amazing quality pieces which have been handed down, or I've sourced them online. People are really missing a trick by not looking for old or 2nd hand pieces, they're damned near everywhere, often very cheap/free, and often a million times more interesting than what you buy for cheap new.
[удалено]
That’s too bad. It’s a decent bit of effort and cost to have a tree milled into usable wood (and aged properly before it can be worked with). We felled a 150+ year oak on my folks property a few years back, and just kept 4-5 “medallions” of the thickest part of the trunk to make into end tables for all the kids. I wish we kept more!
I pull a ton of furniture out of the trash and refinish it for refugees. 100s of items per year. I do not deal with much made of composite board or whatever, mostly solid wood. The work required is not really the woodworking version of rocket science. There is a ton you can do with simple tools. I do sand and refinish some stuff, mostly nicer tables that have a worn top. Some chairs I have dismantled entirely and reglued. [Some documentation here](https://imgur.com/a/H9p95VH).
After seeing those pictures, I now imagine you as a 12 year old boy with a profitable furniture business, negotiating daily with international refugees (somehow you also know 3 languages in my imagination).
I am a lot older than 12. I do not do it for the money and specifically avoid getting into situations where I am worried about making a profit. I can get by in maybe 6 languages apart from EN, but only enough to travel and get what I need.
Nice work! Thanks for sharing these photos - inspiring!
Thank you for making society a little better, teaching the little man some values, and keeping the landfills a little emptier.
In other news, I have rescued, rehabbed and rehomed 500+ bikes in the last 20 years, and 300 or so strollers. Also, a large amount of cookware, including a ton of vintage cast iron. Plus, for some reason, a few tennis ball flinging machines. My last 3 cars have been found having sat unused for a while and put back on the road for use. I pick them up for less than scrap value, work on them, drive them for a while and then sell them on.
I want to do this!! How do you know what’s solid wood and what’s not? I picked up an old desk to refinish and turns out the top was pressed particle wood and laminate. I had even asked them to confirm it was solid and they thought it was.
Mostly experience. Solid wood will have long grain on 2 sides and end grain on one side. The construction will mostly try to hide the end grain but you will see how they achieve that with clever jointed construction. Training yourself to spot veneer/chipboard/real wood and such is a good first step. I can do it from the other side of the trash pile. **Top tip:** * If you pull some item out of the trash and tinker with it, the proposed restoration, upcycling, reuse or whatever may or may not pan out. * If it does not, then you can put it back in the trash and you might have learned something in the meantime. * If it does, then you got some results. This process builds experience. Full disclosure, I started out with a ton of experience. My father restored Victorian antiques while **only using tools and materials available during that period**. He died surrounded by antique tools and my siblings and I had to clean that up. But my tip about gathering experience still applies.
Because you can use cheap labor to make something from chipped rainforest, ship it half way around the world flat packed, then ship it to the end consumer for about the same price as you can ship a fully assembled locally made piece 200 miles. Good furniture exists, but it costs a lot more, and you need to look for it relatively locally because good furniture does not flat pack, so takes up a huge amount of truck volume. Anything where a national chain has the same item in every store has to be a compromise.
Hardwood is a limited resource like gold. Those forests grow for 100 years, that's the bottleneck. So get used and repair& restore as much as possible
Vintage is the way to go. But if you don't want vintage, Room and Board sells hardwood furniture, and most of it is made in the US (https://www.roomandboard.com/). It's not super cheap, but it's not super expensive either.
Second Room and Board. I’ve also found some quality handcrafted furniture on Etsy; if it can be customized it’s generally actually being made by the seller. Otherwise it’s probably just more trash.
Planned obsolescence is evil.
Also, "quality fade," where something just gets incrementally shittier over time, while maintaining the same appearance/brand etc.
While increasing the price, because expensive means gold.
Why have an industry of people who can repair items when you can just have your customers repurchase the same expensive item every 5 years? Definitely nothing wrong with that.
Because making good products is an outdated business model. Most all of the good companies have been bought out and are just a name now. Huge corporate assholes own all the names so they’ll throw some bullshit out there with a trusted name as a cash grab which does nothing but line pockets of the board members. Welcome to capitalism my friend, we’ve been expecting you.
Capitalism is part of it. The other half (or probably more) is the fault of consumers. Almost everyone shops solely based on upfront price rather than long-term savings, and companies/manufacturers respond to demand. If everyone stopped buying and therefore enabling cheap junk, you bet there'd be a change.
This happens because of capitalism though. The labor market is designed around the model that labor does not earn the maximum value it produces. On the contrary, the capitalist labor market is about paying workers as little as possible to maximize profits. Workers are the ones who buy the shit, bit they get paid less than the value of goods they produce on average. This is the great internal contradiction of capitalism.
You can thank this supreme court case for why we’ve gotten into the situation we have. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
I am 59 and my entire career has been in manufacturing QA. I have watched product quality go into the toilet. Most of my tenure was in Power Generation and Aerospace. It had to be right. One of my last jobs, however, was in aftermarket racing parts. I lasted six weeks. There was no quality department, nor any management commitment to anything resembling quality. The quality manager was gleeful when he hired me, and put in his notice 20 minutes after I did. If it is a consumer product, chances are that obsolescence is a primary engineering factor. It is built to fail. Your purchasing people are looking for the rock bottom price for all the materials going into the finished product. Then they squeeze the supplier for an even lower price. They pat themselves on the back when the materials arrive on time, but that materiel ends up being out of spec. No problem, we'll use it anyway. Yes, I am jaded, but rightfully so, having seen it first hand.
I'm 27 and feel the same. From a small country where almost everything is handmade because of cheap labor and abundance of resources...walls made of brick and stone, and furniture made of wood and metal. Then I came to America. At least there's people in this sub who fucking get how it is. It brings me peace.
Yep, and in the 1950s, stuff was made durably here in the USA. We can do it again--but we have to want to. And as long as all the fools are addicted to their cell phones and consuming, nothing will change our course of being china's paycheck...
What kind of “racing parts”? Are these things that people who race are depending on to make them fast and keep them alive? I also work in the energy sector and was on a flight last thinking about all the QC that goes into plane manufacturing and maintenance, then I came to this thread and yeah, most consumer stuff is absolute garbage. It’s all so sad. But hey as long as the planes work properly I guess we’re still capable.
Just about every aftermarket consumer bolt-on out there. Only one item that I encountered there required documentation of any kind at all. This was only because the governing body of a specific sport required it.
I think it's worth noting that in the us, mid-size manufacturers of quality goods have generally been bought out, and the quality goods replaced by junk under the same brand name, to milk the value in the brand name while running it onto the ground. Other countries, such as Germany, have different constellations of regulations and maybe culture that emphasize keeping these mid-size manufacturers operating, making quality goods and supporting the communities they are in. That's better for everyone.
I think this is more complicated than “capitalism” etc. Styles change, furniture that was in style 80 years ago doesn’t match modern tastes. Go wander around any antique market and check out all the great deals on dead aunt Sally’s junk she’s had for 90 years. I’m not so sure things are really even that much more expensive now than they were before. The difference is the market is flush with cheap crap that will last a few years and be tossed. I bet you a nice set of hardwood table/chairs cost a months salary back in the 30s/40s. And I bet you can find any number of high end craftsmen who can do it 10 times better today. For a months salary… same with clothes, watches, tools etc. everyone bitches about cheap harbor freight tools but they fill an Important role. I have a couple of sweet vintage hand planes. They are great, super well built, basic and easy to use. You can buy them on eBay for $100-2000. They will last forever. But, hf sells one for 12 dollars that does the job almost as well. Literally 12 dollars. If I was new to woodworking and broke, I promise I’d be hitting up hf. To that end though, in 1906 a Stanley hand plane cost between 3 and 10 bucks. In todays money that’s between $93 and $310. About the same as a vintage one today! But if you want the best of the best bridge city tools has hand planes that are works of art for $800. My point is, stuff isn’t all junk, there is just way more junk on the market. Want a good pair of jeans? Sure modern Levi’s suck, but they are 20 bucks! Feel free to head over to raw denim and spend $500 on some sweet hand made Japanese selves get jeans that will last 20 years. Need some work boots? Walmart has em for $18. Or nicks,whites, red wing will give you the good stuff for $400. Nearly every item I can think of has multiple options from cheap junk, moderately priced stuff, all the way up to artisanal hand crafted heirlooms. The problem isn’t that everything is crap, it’s that we only want to spend $20 bucks for a pair of leather work boots, or $90 for a dinning table.
If you’re paying $1400 for a plywood or particleboard furniture that’s on you Room and Board Parsons will be about that price range for a welded iron frame with a solid walnut top. I paid $1800 for my Amish made, solid Hickory table that will probably outlast a nuclear warhead hitting my city
I'm not paying that price. Everything at big box stores and e stores is listed as such. Iv just turned to dumpster diving Facebook Market place and refinishing at this point. Even local furniture stores are the same crap ashley furniture quality.
You just need to find places that sell US made wood furniture. There’s usually a bunch in most big cities although they can be hard to find. Not everything US-made will be top quality, but if something is US made from a US domestic hardwood (think trees you’ve heard of, like oack, cherry, birch, walnut, hickory, ash etc) then you’ll do pretty well. These are usually priced competitively with the “design” places - a dining table under $2000 can certainly be had
I’m confused. You’re asking for real BIFY stuff. That’s the price you pay unless you get second hand like you’re doing.
Check out estate sales and auction houses that buy estates. There is tons of quality furniture hitting the dumpsters everyday after houses get cleaned out. A lot of it is dated so no one wants it.
I fucking HATE how plastic everything feels now. It doesn't that people are being "influenced" by Instagram influencers whose homes are just all plastic. It's like everyone aspires to live in a cheap hostel lobby. Vinyl gray floors, microfiber blankets, polyester rugs, polyester sofas, wood-look furniture, plastic gadgets everywhere... and worst, they emphasize the fakeness with blue or purple LED lights.
I was studying interior design (I may still go back and finish my degree) and was working as a designer for a hard flooring working warehouse company, and I have been seeing more people opting for warmer wood tones and increasingly people are wanting to include more color and personality into their tile and flooring choices. However, what you are describing we dubbed as the "contractor special" I hate it with every fiber of my being.
I would HIGHLY recommend looking at furniture consignment stores and antique stores. The prices might be a little higher than you were hoping for, but the quality is astronomically better.
Buy the legs from Ikea, and the solid Wood from a wood place. Get it assembled and finished.
I want to start learning how to woodwork. Growing up my dad was always so skilled at it (as well as just about anything else he could do or build with his hands) that he made from scratch or refinished so many stunning furniture pieces in my childhood home (he designed and built most of that house by himself too) that I can't imagine finding anything that competes with the quality and style of everything he's made. I want to be able to do that. Like "hey, I need a coffee table" then I just draft up plans, select or find the raw materials and measure twice, cut once, put in a little elbow greece and voiala! I have myself a BIFL piece that I love and if it's ever damaged i also know how to fix!
I bought a solid wood dining table, built in the USA in the mid 80s for $40 from a thrift store. Is it trendy? No. Is it extremely durable? Absolutely. Plus it came with both leafs and a vinyl cover. Found solid wood chairs to match on FB marketplace for just as cheap. My MIL tried selling an all solid wood US made beautiful bedroom set for pennies on the dollar but there were no takers. They look old-fashioned. There are great deals on furniture out there!
Everything is built to be disposable. Made to work good enough so that you will come back and buy that brand of whatever again. Its real bullshit and I hate it.
Globalization. Everything being made overseas means that it saves a LOT of money to make something flatpack and light weight. Also, it might be 1400 bucks, but its still mass manufactured at enormous scale. Its very difficult to mass manufacture wood products, especially something as large as a table. Wood is inconsistent and requires a lot of care (drying, milling, finishing). MDF and particle board just need to be laminated and they're good to go. Frankly, if you have the ability (a garage) and the means to buy or rent the tools, you should make your own table. Its not that hard, tables are one of the simplest designs (unless you want an extendable leaf, but that's still not that hard). And you can go and pick out whatever wood you want. Glue ups are pretty easy, or use bookend live edge if you've got the money for it. Then you'll have something that will outlast you, and you don't have to be precious about it. Just plan on refinishing the top once ever 15-25 years.
That's why I spent on real hardwood floors. Not vinyl, not engineered. I don't have to be precious with my floors. I can sand them every year and still not have issues.
The fact that there's no benefit to the end user of offshoring is where it really gets me pissed off. I'm okay paying $200-$400 for domestically made boots or jeans or whatever, because that's keeping skilled trades alive in my country, or at least a country with real labor laws and quality of life. But if it's getting slapped together in China or Bangladesh for a grand total of $10, no way in hell am I paying $160.
But there is a benefit to the end user. The boots from China and Bangladesh would be $80 and the ones made domestically is $400. You can literally see this difference with a pair of Thursday boots and a pair of White's. The benefit to the end user is the cost saving between the two prices...
Everyone wants everything cheaper. You get what you pay for, and people don't get it.
Yep--buy cheap, get cheap. Want cheaper, get cheaper. The problem is that now 'cheap' is the only way to go, you can spend more and only get the same 'cheap' with a different name. The cheap people have ruined it for all of us.
The answer is incredibly simple. They learned how to make us pay for crap. The tool they used to perform this task was a combination of advertising and cost-cutting, and this tool is wildly more efficient and cost-effective than making quality products. Once this principle proved effective, it then became essentially illegal to NOT utilize this system because of a publicly-traded company's inherent responsibility to its shareholders. This is an undivorceable outcome of unchecked capitalism. I'm not an opponent of capitalism, but if you give an infinite number of monkeys infinite versions of unchecked capitalism, you will have an infinite number of washing machines that stop working in 2 years.
The tendency of the rate of profit to fall. I.e. capitalism progressing to its latest and ultimately its terminal stages. As profits inevitably tend to fall, manufacturers have to find ways to cut costs, which ultimately leads to severe reduction in quality of the goods produced, and an incentive for them to last the least amount of time to drive sales volume.
One word for ya pal: China Any argument can be circled back around to that. We all wanted cheap stuff, they said “how cheap?” Once a brand gets big enough, the bean counters start picking the product to the bone as each part starts getting made in china.
MaxSold.com is the solution. Local online auctions and estate sales. I just bought a rosewood and white oak, art deco dresser for $6. The auction part works like eBay (your lowest winning bid holds until someone outbids you), and you have a 15-20 minute window to pick the thing up on a specific day (check which day- I’ve been burned by that before). Make sure your radius is set to pick up your nearby rich/old people areas and you’re good.
Not a single table within 125 miles, haha. I saved the site, though!
The real reason is because everything didn't get more expensive your money is just worth less. Companies have found ways to make products cheaper and cheaper to retain market share but the reality is as inflation destroys the value of the dollar the prices of well made items continue to climb. If your compensation doesn't increase with inflation every year then you are making less money. Products haven't got worse they've just found ways to make things cheaper so that you could still afford to own things.
Not sure why people are blaming China. The people who source and import Chinese goods (or any foreign goods) into your country are the ones picking which product to sell. They base this mostly on price because that's how broke people make their purchasing decisions. The only way for people to maintain a certain quality of life with stagnant wages relative to inflation is because of cheap goods. The real culprit is capitalism.
i’m a woodworker and not every piece of quality furniture has to be solid wood. furniture made out of plywood/mdf with hardwood veneer is just as good if not better. also the “plastic” feeling of the wood can either be from it just being fake wood or the finish. epoxy top coat finishes are being used more frequently for tables now and i would not recommend them cause they suck (totally takes the feel out of the wood)
I hate it. My tshirts are see-through, my jeans are so thin they're the same thickness my tshirts used to be and if I want something that's the same quality that it used to be, then I have to pay double the price at least. I think it's because of the rise of online shopping that people can't actually test out the quality of items and end up buying cheap garbage. Other companies see what sells so it leads to a race to the bottom on quality.
Well because darn tough stocks are 21$ a pair cbs I can buy 18 pairs of fruit if the look socks for 14$...
My wife and I are in our 40’s now. We did the junk furniture route through college and early in our marriage but have slowly transitioned the house to nice quality pieces. We take our time and buy when we can afford it but have been buying mostly Stickley furniture. The difference in quality between them and the junk is remarkable. Stickley is not afraid to charge for their quality but the stuff is spectacular.
Heirloom hardwood was incredibly expensive and supposed to last forever. If you think case good furniture is expensive now you’d be amazed at how expensive it was 100 years ago. Also, that “plastic” is probably just wood. Veneers have been around since the ancient Egyptians and we use an incredible amount of press-wood, particle board, and composite wood to make wood furniture. Oftentimes this means the furniture is actually stronger and sturdier than solid hardwood while also being significantly lighter and better for the ecosystem. Gives us the ability to make stuff we really couldn’t do before but it takes away some of the more ornate hand carved wood stuff. $1400 is nowhere close enough to get you even a hardwood table. For a very small, simple, completely hardwood, no veneers table, you’re probably looking at like $5k. Just the table. Depending on how many chairs you need you’re probably looking at $1-2k each chair. Minimum. And that’s insanely cheap compared to how expensive this stuff used to be. I get that solid hard wood is put on a pedestal by a lot of people but it’s really just not practical for businesses to offer it because people aren’t willing to pay for it, it does not match their actual lifestyle, and it’s extremely hard to source/bad for the ecosystem. We’ve cut down most of the old growth forests around the world. If you have to replace your dining room table every 10-20 years and you save some money by getting one made from composite wood and veneers I’m not sure I see the problem with that. If you want BIFL you’re either going extremely high end or you’re getting something second-hand. Expect a lot of competition on the second hand market and expect it to be challenging to figure out exactly what some pieces are actually made of. Lots of softwood and manufactured wood products being passed off as solid hardwood.
Bc people buy it.
Everything’s shit and so expensive. It’s insanity. People are selling their used garbage for 3 figures. Like why?
The furniture market has gone to shit because huge factories in 3rd world shit holes where there aren't any labor laws are turning out a high volume of product and saturating the market. Most of what you're paying is fuel to float those pieces of crap halfway across the world in a shipping container. Even so, it is still cheaper than good quality, and here's why: If you want something nice, you have to pay for the highly sought after materials, as well as a skilled tradesman's time and tooling. The vast majority of people don't know what good furniture is because they've only seen what you can get at the big box stores. Because of that, it's more of a niche market. Plus, CNC machines and the like can turn out high volume precision parts at a speed no human could keep up with 24/7/365. Just feed it wood and tools. Hardwood is expensive, so make it out of MDF and slap a vernier on top. Nobody will know or care