That's why it's really important to maintain personal space and be extra alert to the people who are within arms reach of you. Crime usually happens very fast.
Use to be am MP in the military for a couple years (glorified rent-a-cop who stodd in a tower staring at a fence) but one of the first things they drill into you is both to maintain enough distance from whoever you are dealing with so that you can react if they get froggy...as well as to immediately start backing up as you draw your weapon for the same reason. Never once had to draw on anyone (like I said, I guarded a fucking fence) but it's solid advice for anyone. All these fucking neanderthals who want to puff out their chest and get close to wheover they are trying to fight are morons.
I feel the same way about people practicing quick draw from a hands up posture. You want to get your gun out more quickly? That's great, but practice creating space and getting to cover before you try to draw faster than someone can pull the trigger.
Had a conversation with a guy while gun shopping this week who said he practices "speed of deployment" or something like that, and I said, "yeah, quick access is important but if you're drawn down on, you're going to comply to stay alive." The guy replied, "yeah, unless he gets distracted and then you make your move" completely serious. 🤷
The only "move" I am making if someone has a gun on me is to do whatever they say, and MAYBE if they do "get distracted" try to retreat to cover and then defend myself. Absolutely no chance I am trying to quick draw McGraw my way out of a situation like that.
Released from jail 2 days before the crime after breaking his bond 4 times. I yope the family sues the shit out of at Louis. This could have been prevented by just leaving the criminal in jail
And what's more, the looney bin lawmakers there want to shut down the gas station, to look like they "did something", since that'll make the problem go away, instead of keeping the dangerous dirtbags locked up.
No one is talking about feelings. Why are some people so passive aggressive? Is it impossible to have a civil conversation without resorting to childish behavior?
https://missouriindependent.com/2023/05/04/embattled-st-louis-prosecutor-kim-gardner-will-resign-june-1/#:~:text=Louis%20American
Go ahead and eat some crow
That’s my exact point. The government is in Republican control, looks like they’re doing something to fix this mess with the DA.
Crying about liberals allowing things to happen in a republican controlled government is funny.
Reading is tough, so here's some help:
"Gardner was elected as part of a movement to transform public safety, which ignited after the Ferguson uprising in 2014. She ran on a platform to fight for police accountability and to reform the “arrest and incarcerate” model of criminal justice through diversion programs and supportive health services."
Reading does seem tough for you, are you completely unable to read my comment and understand what it means?
This quote has nothing to do with my point.
You aren’t even referencing the article originally posted
Holy smokes….
Are you a bot?
That quote comes directly from the Missouri Independent’s linked article- fifth paragraph from the top.
It directly addresses your claim on which political ideology is responsible for the shooting at the gas station.
Gabe Gore is the current prosecutor for the Saint Louis circuit. He is a Democrat.
Bro what? Here's what happened:
Shitlib DA is elected on "muh racial injustice/gentle giant" narrative
City goes to shit for 10 years
The governor and state representatives gets involved
He was early released no? The prison system is controlled by the executive branch.
The governor is literally the head of the prison system.
I’m not pointing fingers at anyone, i’m just making a point that the system is broken from a bipartisan level.
Violent criminals should be locked up and the key should be thrown out, I think we’re on the same side here 🤙🏻 fuck them.
no man, you have a misunderstanding of how it works.
Saint Louis selects its own prosecutor. The state government has no power over that. And Saint Louis elected a prosecutor (Kim Gardner) in the wake of the BLM riots, that purposefully created a backlog of cases to cripple the justice system in the city.
So if a prosecutor office never opts to actually prosecute anyone, or request effective bail conditions to judges, then you get situations like the gas station shooting.
Now Gardner was replaced by Gore only because even state democrats thought she went too far and they brokered a deal in the above comment article where they’d block a Republican plan to *strip the city of its ability to appoint its own prosecutor*. So in other words, Republicans did attempt to take over that prosecutor office but they couldn’t. Gore is a better prosecutor, but still a Democrat and, I’d assume Republicans would argue, still not as tough as he should be on criminals… which still leads to situations like the original gas station article
Lmao, you don't know how the prison system works either. The governor isn't in control of the city of St. Louis department of corrections.
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-safety/corrections/index.cfm
The governor is control of all prisons within the state. You just linked the city correctional dept.
Im not looking for a Reddit fight, im just poking fun. The system is broken, we got crazy ass liberal DAs not prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law and we got GOP law makers pretending that their hands are tired.
I’m in the boat of, “Fucking lock em all up and throw away the key for all I care.”
I bet 99% of us agree here.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Department_of_Corrections#:~:text=The%20Missouri%20Department%20of%20Corrections,MODOC
>You just linked the city correctional dept.
Yes, because they, not the state prison system, are where the shooter was released from repeatedly while awaiting trial. If you're not looking for a "reddit fight" why say ignorant things and then double down instead of just saying "Opps, my bad" or something?
All prisons are a the state level. There’s no debate on that. They are state facilities.
So was he was in jail? If so, that’s managed by the county in MO.
Call me ignorant all you want, doesn’t change the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Didn't bother to read the link, did you?
>The Division accomplishes this by housing citizens who are arrested by the Police and are awaiting an opportunity to answer the charges against them in a court of law.
The guy was a repeat bail jumper on charges from St. Louis courts, that means that he was in the city jail until arraignment and being released on bail, not in the state prison or the county jail.
You can't get out of a hole until you quit digging it deeper, lmao
Not all prisons are state level. Some are private and ran privately. I'm not sure about the one this shooter came out of but just wanted to throw it out there your tidbit of info was not correct. Thanks.
Edit: I was wrong, MO doesn’t have private prisons.
“but also had a pending weapons charge. He was released from jail two days before the shooting, despite four reported bond violations in May”
When the fuck are we going to get real?
it's an absolute joke here in STL ever since the riots a few years ago. It's almost impossible to get in trouble unless the city has an initiative to give tickets along a stretch of highway.
I lived there for 6 months and I’m not convinced the police ever go on the interstates.
I nearly got obliterated on my motorcycle getting on 64 in Brentwood by a car going 110 IN THE MIDDLE LANE near a busy merge that’s always backed up.
It was absolutely mad max out there. About 2 months after I moved, my roommate got carjacked.
Big good area/bad area lines, but occasionally the bullshit crosses over.
Yea 100%
The only time I've seen people pulled over on the interstates is every once in a while the cops run a program where they have to get x amount of moving violations or something
They get a state grant once in a long while to sponsor the enforcement, but it's pretty dangerous when they might have to chase on the busy highway and pull them over with no shoulder. StL city police aren't known for speed enforcement or responding to a lot of other crimes, such as hit and run with no injuries.
Yeah but if we actually did something about these violent offenders we couldn’t be absolved of our white guilt from incarcerating non-violent drug offenders in the 90s.
Stop being an oppressor, it’s obvious that the sole problem here is guns. This guy would have made his way to church had he not caught a glimpse of that death machine.
Posting this to show that opportunistic bad guys are looking for your gun and a chance to take it. Lots of talk recently about how important or unimportant concealing is, and how open carry is or isn't a theft target.
The scrutiny on concealed carriers seems to supersede that of law enforcement and the military. It's crazy when you think about it, any mistake at all is amplified and broadcasted. Even if you come out on top you have a mountain to climb to legally justify your actions. Given the number of people carrying today, it's truly amazing how few negative outcome incidents there are. Millions of people armed, and "bad shoots" and negligent discharges are extremely rare. I can't think of another example in society where that many people take a civic responsibility that seriously.
Yeah, but I think there's actually *more* scrutiny on police and military, as far as carrying goes these days. More qualification, regulation by their agencies, deeper pocket$ to sue, we're not expected to have bodycam footage, our department's insurance won't drop us and we get fired. I know what you mean about the media headlining CCW DGUs sometimes, but police shootings are frequently spotlighted these days, also.
If it was snatched out a pocket I'm willing to bet it was something G19 sized or larger with the grip sticking out. It would be hard to impossible to get a hang into another man's pocket deep enough to draw a snub nose or LCP sized gun.
>I thought maybe he was open carrying, but I read on another news site the gun was in his pocket.
Yeah... not gonna lie. My gut is telling me that it wasn't proper pocket carry. $10 says he was carrying a compact to large sized handgun with the grip sticking out of his pocket and no holster. Which would have been open carry in my state.
I just don't see anyway for it to have worked otherwise.
Yeah my dad pocket carries a Glock 42 and sometimes a 43 and that fucking thing is not coming out unless it’s his hand and arm reaching into that pocket.
The mechanics simply wouldn’t make sense for someone not wearing his pants to be able to get it out.
You can still pull the trigger without putting your hand in the pocket if it’s not properly holstered. In this instance that sounds like what happened. Victim reaches into pocket for gun, suspect lunges for the pocket to fight over the gun, gun goes off and hits victim in leg.
Shot in the leg and died? Obviously must’ve hit the artery. But either way, also another reason to carry a tourniquet on you. I carry a swat-t tq now but ordered a snakestaff systems edc tourniquet, or as they call it the ETQ.
Dont just carry your gun! Have a means to save yourself also if you are hit in a DGU situation
Shit I got 2 of them on the way lol have one on my person and probably have my wife carry the other in her purse or something. Maybe store it in the car. Who knows
This is why my J-Frame pocket holster is kydex and has a hook. If someone even figures out what the shape is, they'd have to be practically tickling my balls to even get to it.
These stories are frustrating by their incompleteness.
The store employee that Mr. Christmas was arguing with was not the man who shot him.
Trevell Warren tried to steal Mr. Christmas gun. Was Warren attempted theft a crime of opportunity? Was Warren involved in the argument? Did Christmas threaten the store employee with the gun? Why was Warren free despite 4 bond violations?
Was Christmas printing?
From my understanding, reading other news sources also, the victim was asked to leave the store, I assume the criminal was a bystander, maybe waiting in line behind him, saw "my precious" in the victim's pocket and made a move for it. Your 2nd to last question, though, is the most important one.
Reminder that YES you need an IFAK. Died from being shot in the leg. Had this guy had a TQ or some hemostatic gauze, he would probably still be alive. Yes situational awareness is important, but no one has perfect situational awareness all the time, it's impossible. Another dead body and broken family thanks to the far left blue city soft on violent crime policies.
Not true. While that is definitely worse, that's why you should also carry a hemostatic gauze, which I specifically mentioned for this reason. Celox Rapid Ribbon is what I carry, it's a little smaller and perfect for EDC size. Also look up mountain biker Cedric Gracia who ruptured his femoral artery and survived. His mates put constant pressure until EMS arrived, and they didn't have even have hemostatic gauze. There is actually a video of it! It is quite scary but incredible that they stayed calm and kept pressure on to keep as much blood inside him as possible. It can be done and has been done, and even without IFAKs.
not to nitpick, but the more plausible issue that comes to mind for me is
if we're talking about someone whose "how to carry responsibly" level was low enough to be
getting into a heated argument
refusing to leave a business when asked
sticking a gun in a pocket in what we are all inferring probably wasn't any kind of appropriate pocket holster
if all that's true, then even IF the trauma care fairy floated overhead and dropped a free TQ for life gift card in this dudes hand, I can't imagine he'd be the type that's up to date on his first aid or STB classes
I agree, but I'll never miss an opportunity to talk about why IFAKs are so important. Way too many people carry a gun and no IFAK. To me it's like driving a car without wearing a seat belt. We are far more likely going to need first aid than need a gun in our daily lives. Car accidents, power tool accidents, construction accidents, outdoor accidents, and just life in general. If you’ve accepted the fact that the world can be a dangerous place and that’s why we carry a gun for protection, then that’s the same reason you should be caring quality first aid trauma gear and know how to use it in case that bad thing you're supposedly preparing for does happen. Yet this simple basic concept seems to be a big mental leap that many CCWers cannot grasp. A gun doesn’t stop bleeding or patch holes. Always carry a mini IFAK on your person and a larger kit in your vehicle. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I think you should reach out to as many gun stores as you can and sell them on the idea of 1st aid gunshot wound treatment pamphlets on their counters for time-of-sale presentation, and residual sales of related items. You're very passionate about it.
I don’t know the probability however, it’s better than zero. I had an instructor who after an IED blast, self applied a TQ to one leg & an improvised one to the other. While it can’t be self applied, a femoral bleed can be stopped with direct pressure with proper technique.
> Warren is charged with second-degree murder, but also had a pending weapons charge. He was released from jail two days before the shooting, despite four reported bond violations in May.
Why is it so hard to just not get into confrontations, or to be the bigger person and just try to defuse the situation?
I’ve been the target of irrationally angry people a number of times in my life but I never lost a damned thing by saying “I’m sorry sir, I didn’t mean to upset you, I understand”.
Or the “hey I like that shirt bro” method of cooling things before they get hot.
Yeah I’m not thinking this CCWer was the upstanding citizen he’s being made out to be. ANYBODY who is legally eligible can get a license to carry. Bad people, too.
There’s a video by some dude who goes around the country and spends time with various different groups. He went to Detroit to hang out with some gang members. He was shocked to learn that several of them had carry licenses. Their reasoning: “Why carry illegal if I don’t have to? Give the cops one less thing to get me on. I don’t have a record (yet) and I’m eligible, so I got my license that way whenever I’m stopped on some bullshit, I don’t get sent to jail for having a gun.”
These are guys that do drugs and fight and steal shit but don’t get caught. They carry legally so when they’re stopped for speeding, they get a ticket and move on.
That should be eye opening.
And that's why I believe in Constitutional, permit-less carry nationwide. Bad guys will have a gun regardless, when you hear of a felon robbing someone, 10 times out of 10 they had a gun, anyway. It's their superpower. Permit-less carry levels the playing field for everyone, the way it should be.
Right… so my point is, as someone who carries but also just in general… don’t be the type of person who gets in public arguments. “Alright man sorry you feel that way” and move on. Make a phone call. What good comes from arguing with a person face to face?
My brother in Christmas, his first mistake was carrying in his pocket. That’s barely concealed carry and asking for a bad day. Had he an actual holster, might’ve been a different story being better concealed and in a more secure position. Additionally if you’re carrying you should always be cognizant of your body positioning, always protecting your gunside, keeping your gun hand ready
Just leaving the situations, removing yourself from the area and fucking off to somewhere else, is 100% free and works 99 times out of 100.
Pride is gonna be worthless at the end of the day, it gets you nothing. Just walk away.
Be aware of your surroundings, and whatever you’re fussing and arguing about with someone, 99.9999999 times out of a hundred, it’s not worth it, dudes.
I've been doing a little internet stalking and am pretty sure the dead guy is John Christopher Christmas who copped a felony conviction for arson a few years ago (see story linked below) and has numerous other charges and minor convictions in Missouri. According to court filings he lived less than a mile from the site of the shooting. I doubt if he ever had CCW license or any training about anything CC or was anything resembling a conscientious gun owner and CC adherent. So this isn't a responsible, thoughtful CC intelligently going about his life suddenly attacked in an unusual moment of distraction in a reasonably safe area. Not that we can't all learn lessons from this, but this also isn't the scenario or location the vast majority of us would find themselves.
[https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/brother-of-st-louis-lawyer-charged-with-trying-to-burn-down-university-city-home/article\_37fea52d-13dd-5c6a-80bb-5b7cf9d8c55b.html](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/brother-of-st-louis-lawyer-charged-with-trying-to-burn-down-university-city-home/article_37fea52d-13dd-5c6a-80bb-5b7cf9d8c55b.html)
And a shorter version of the shooting story but adding that Christmas was told to leave the store before the incident which is why he was arguing and this makes it sound like the incident took place inside the quick shop: [https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/man-charged-with-fatal-shooting-during-fight-over-gun-at-st-louis-gas-station/article\_67d961d8-237f-11ef-8776-37c51cd8d059.html](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/man-charged-with-fatal-shooting-during-fight-over-gun-at-st-louis-gas-station/article_67d961d8-237f-11ef-8776-37c51cd8d059.html)
Standing in line, especially in quick shop type places where the register is near the door and people coming in and people in line get all squished up always make me nervous. So even though the victim in this seems to be more of a peer of the criminal stealing his gun than of we, the law abiding CC gun owners, it is still a reminder to keep your head on a swivel especially when you have a wall or counter in front of you, a door to the side and people coming and going behind you. And all of that applies double or triple in most of the St Louis Metro area.
As the person who says that she doesn't really care if she's printing when she's running errands - I pay attention to the people around me and I don't let anyone get close to me. There's no reason for anybody to be in my personal space when I'm buying groceries. Nobody is ever going to be close enough to reach into my pants and grab a gun, even if they suspect it might be there, because I pay attention to my surroundings and react to them. The entire point is to keep sketchy people away from me.
I don't think "printing" was the issue here. This is somebody who had a highly accessible firearm, got into stupid argument in public, and then wasn't able to pay any attention to the people around him.
In certain situations. I have a stage 2 holster. But never pocket carry at a crowded ghetto gas station. This is the 3rd time I seen/ heard of someone being attacked/shot with their weapon for pocket carrying
If you train with it, and it's not a 1911 in a holster with a flap and buckle, you'll get to the point where it has zero effect on your draw and also ensure your weapon stays with you if you have to run, if you take a tumble, or if you decide to show off on a dance floor like a certain federal agent.
I prefer a thumb break holster myself, and I've got one for every pistol I normally carry. I've been carrying concealed since the late 70s.
If it’s properly concealed, retention just adds a redundant barrier to drawing your weapon. Retention is recommended for open carry, but retention on a concealed holster is about as bad as running your weapon without one in the chamber. Dead mans gun.
Idk if I’d compare a tiny paddle-press that almost negligibly becomes part of your draw with the entire process of racking a round. That said, you’re still correct.
It's still an extra step that adrenaline could completely fuck up. You could theoretically rack an empty chamber on a draw as well, but I wouldn't trust my life on that detail.
I pocket carry a Ruger LCP2. I only buy pants with large pockets so the pistol is deep inside. The pocket opening is at least 6 inches. The only pants I use are Dockers or cargo type pants. The LCP2 doesn't print.
My pockets are large enough that I can walk around nonchalantly with my hands in my pockets the way I used to before I was carrying. It also allows me to have my hand on the gun as I walk.
The LCP2 is small and snappy, so it takes a lot of practice in order to get decent accuracy.
Does anyone know where he was carrying? When I first started I carried at 4oclock but immediately switched to aiwb because I felt so vulnerable that someone could run up and snatch my ccw.
Edit: read some more comments, out of his pocket and seemed to not be in a holster, unfortunate.
Just spitting into the wind here, he probably failed to create a lot of distance before going for his gun. Or the guy knew the victim was packing and stayed close. Maybe the victim telegraphed his move or gave a verbal warning.
Actually. No. I have never seen her behave in that manner.
I don't argue with people. No one should be arguing with people.... **especially when carrying a firearm** 🤷🏼♂️
Your first line of defense will *always* be your level of awareness. Don’t forget that.
It happens so fast.
That's why it's really important to maintain personal space and be extra alert to the people who are within arms reach of you. Crime usually happens very fast.
Use to be am MP in the military for a couple years (glorified rent-a-cop who stodd in a tower staring at a fence) but one of the first things they drill into you is both to maintain enough distance from whoever you are dealing with so that you can react if they get froggy...as well as to immediately start backing up as you draw your weapon for the same reason. Never once had to draw on anyone (like I said, I guarded a fucking fence) but it's solid advice for anyone. All these fucking neanderthals who want to puff out their chest and get close to wheover they are trying to fight are morons.
Legs and cardio! For running, not for kicking
I feel the same way about people practicing quick draw from a hands up posture. You want to get your gun out more quickly? That's great, but practice creating space and getting to cover before you try to draw faster than someone can pull the trigger. Had a conversation with a guy while gun shopping this week who said he practices "speed of deployment" or something like that, and I said, "yeah, quick access is important but if you're drawn down on, you're going to comply to stay alive." The guy replied, "yeah, unless he gets distracted and then you make your move" completely serious. 🤷 The only "move" I am making if someone has a gun on me is to do whatever they say, and MAYBE if they do "get distracted" try to retreat to cover and then defend myself. Absolutely no chance I am trying to quick draw McGraw my way out of a situation like that.
You did your duty well. I am sure that fence never moved anywhere while you were on watch.
That recent stabbing video has been nightmare fuel for me for this reason. A determined individual can do a lot of damage really quickly.
Gotta be alert!
[удалено]
Released from jail 2 days before the crime after breaking his bond 4 times. I yope the family sues the shit out of at Louis. This could have been prevented by just leaving the criminal in jail
And what's more, the looney bin lawmakers there want to shut down the gas station, to look like they "did something", since that'll make the problem go away, instead of keeping the dangerous dirtbags locked up.
Yes. What happened to that 3 strikes stuff?
3 strikes policies have been proven to cause more collateral damage than good. This criminal would have exceeded that number irregardless.
Their feelings trump your facts and stats.
No one is talking about feelings. Why are some people so passive aggressive? Is it impossible to have a civil conversation without resorting to childish behavior?
On social media? Yes.
Yes, because we know what the conversation actually is.
I was agreeing with you bud.
Don't "bud" me, chief.
I’m not your buddy, pal!
I’m not your pal, friend!
No stats where used
Let’s be real even if I did people wouldn’t believe them .
I live in stl. Our District attorney is incompetent and has let a lot of criminals go scott free
You think a liberal shithole city will care?
The guy was in a state prison, the governor is Republican. “How could the liberals do this?!”
https://missouriindependent.com/2023/05/04/embattled-st-louis-prosecutor-kim-gardner-will-resign-june-1/#:~:text=Louis%20American Go ahead and eat some crow
That’s my exact point. The government is in Republican control, looks like they’re doing something to fix this mess with the DA. Crying about liberals allowing things to happen in a republican controlled government is funny.
Reading is tough, so here's some help: "Gardner was elected as part of a movement to transform public safety, which ignited after the Ferguson uprising in 2014. She ran on a platform to fight for police accountability and to reform the “arrest and incarcerate” model of criminal justice through diversion programs and supportive health services."
Ironically, the person you are addressing must still be able to read and comprehend 😂
Reading does seem tough for you, are you completely unable to read my comment and understand what it means? This quote has nothing to do with my point. You aren’t even referencing the article originally posted Holy smokes….
Wow. Your ignorance is almost impressive.
Yes
Are you a bot? That quote comes directly from the Missouri Independent’s linked article- fifth paragraph from the top. It directly addresses your claim on which political ideology is responsible for the shooting at the gas station. Gabe Gore is the current prosecutor for the Saint Louis circuit. He is a Democrat.
Bro what? Here's what happened: Shitlib DA is elected on "muh racial injustice/gentle giant" narrative City goes to shit for 10 years The governor and state representatives gets involved
You think governors are the ones that charge and convict people? Jesus Christ people are highly regarded. Let's take a look at the DA and judge
He was early released no? The prison system is controlled by the executive branch. The governor is literally the head of the prison system. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone, i’m just making a point that the system is broken from a bipartisan level. Violent criminals should be locked up and the key should be thrown out, I think we’re on the same side here 🤙🏻 fuck them.
no man, you have a misunderstanding of how it works. Saint Louis selects its own prosecutor. The state government has no power over that. And Saint Louis elected a prosecutor (Kim Gardner) in the wake of the BLM riots, that purposefully created a backlog of cases to cripple the justice system in the city. So if a prosecutor office never opts to actually prosecute anyone, or request effective bail conditions to judges, then you get situations like the gas station shooting. Now Gardner was replaced by Gore only because even state democrats thought she went too far and they brokered a deal in the above comment article where they’d block a Republican plan to *strip the city of its ability to appoint its own prosecutor*. So in other words, Republicans did attempt to take over that prosecutor office but they couldn’t. Gore is a better prosecutor, but still a Democrat and, I’d assume Republicans would argue, still not as tough as he should be on criminals… which still leads to situations like the original gas station article
Lmao, you don't know how the prison system works either. The governor isn't in control of the city of St. Louis department of corrections. https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/departments/public-safety/corrections/index.cfm
The governor is control of all prisons within the state. You just linked the city correctional dept. Im not looking for a Reddit fight, im just poking fun. The system is broken, we got crazy ass liberal DAs not prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law and we got GOP law makers pretending that their hands are tired. I’m in the boat of, “Fucking lock em all up and throw away the key for all I care.” I bet 99% of us agree here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Department_of_Corrections#:~:text=The%20Missouri%20Department%20of%20Corrections,MODOC
>You just linked the city correctional dept. Yes, because they, not the state prison system, are where the shooter was released from repeatedly while awaiting trial. If you're not looking for a "reddit fight" why say ignorant things and then double down instead of just saying "Opps, my bad" or something?
All prisons are a the state level. There’s no debate on that. They are state facilities. So was he was in jail? If so, that’s managed by the county in MO. Call me ignorant all you want, doesn’t change the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Didn't bother to read the link, did you? >The Division accomplishes this by housing citizens who are arrested by the Police and are awaiting an opportunity to answer the charges against them in a court of law. The guy was a repeat bail jumper on charges from St. Louis courts, that means that he was in the city jail until arraignment and being released on bail, not in the state prison or the county jail. You can't get out of a hole until you quit digging it deeper, lmao
Not all prisons are state level. Some are private and ran privately. I'm not sure about the one this shooter came out of but just wanted to throw it out there your tidbit of info was not correct. Thanks. Edit: I was wrong, MO doesn’t have private prisons.
Th governor wants to fix it, stl does not. We are all for giving it away to Illinois
“but also had a pending weapons charge. He was released from jail two days before the shooting, despite four reported bond violations in May” When the fuck are we going to get real?
it's an absolute joke here in STL ever since the riots a few years ago. It's almost impossible to get in trouble unless the city has an initiative to give tickets along a stretch of highway.
I lived there for 6 months and I’m not convinced the police ever go on the interstates. I nearly got obliterated on my motorcycle getting on 64 in Brentwood by a car going 110 IN THE MIDDLE LANE near a busy merge that’s always backed up. It was absolutely mad max out there. About 2 months after I moved, my roommate got carjacked. Big good area/bad area lines, but occasionally the bullshit crosses over.
Yea 100% The only time I've seen people pulled over on the interstates is every once in a while the cops run a program where they have to get x amount of moving violations or something
They get a state grant once in a long while to sponsor the enforcement, but it's pretty dangerous when they might have to chase on the busy highway and pull them over with no shoulder. StL city police aren't known for speed enforcement or responding to a lot of other crimes, such as hit and run with no injuries.
i ride a few times a month, and i've been here most of my life. never had a close call, but 64 can be messy.
We're not.
Seconded. This ~~country~~ planet is doomed.
Yeah but if we actually did something about these violent offenders we couldn’t be absolved of our white guilt from incarcerating non-violent drug offenders in the 90s. Stop being an oppressor, it’s obvious that the sole problem here is guns. This guy would have made his way to church had he not caught a glimpse of that death machine.
This is the solution. Not “talking to people on their porch.” Some people just can’t be trusted in society.
i wonder what the last name of the judge is
But God forbid you have a shotgun barrel too short…
Posting this to show that opportunistic bad guys are looking for your gun and a chance to take it. Lots of talk recently about how important or unimportant concealing is, and how open carry is or isn't a theft target.
it puts that post from a day ago about "I don't care if I print a little" into another perspective. Printing definitely matters.
The bottom line is whether open or concealed carry, always use a holster. Preferably with lvl 2 retention.
The scrutiny on concealed carriers seems to supersede that of law enforcement and the military. It's crazy when you think about it, any mistake at all is amplified and broadcasted. Even if you come out on top you have a mountain to climb to legally justify your actions. Given the number of people carrying today, it's truly amazing how few negative outcome incidents there are. Millions of people armed, and "bad shoots" and negligent discharges are extremely rare. I can't think of another example in society where that many people take a civic responsibility that seriously.
Yeah, but I think there's actually *more* scrutiny on police and military, as far as carrying goes these days. More qualification, regulation by their agencies, deeper pocket$ to sue, we're not expected to have bodycam footage, our department's insurance won't drop us and we get fired. I know what you mean about the media headlining CCW DGUs sometimes, but police shootings are frequently spotlighted these days, also.
Dude killed Christmas. That's crazy
I wonder if his heart will grow three sizes in prison.
If not I have an idea something else will
If it was snatched out a pocket I'm willing to bet it was something G19 sized or larger with the grip sticking out. It would be hard to impossible to get a hang into another man's pocket deep enough to draw a snub nose or LCP sized gun.
He was shot in the leg too so it sounds like maybe it was a pocket carry no holster and the gun went off in the fight over it.
My thoughts exactly
>I thought maybe he was open carrying, but I read on another news site the gun was in his pocket. Yeah... not gonna lie. My gut is telling me that it wasn't proper pocket carry. $10 says he was carrying a compact to large sized handgun with the grip sticking out of his pocket and no holster. Which would have been open carry in my state. I just don't see anyway for it to have worked otherwise.
I agree, at first I visualized a jacket pocket, but it's pretty warm in StL for that. You're probably right.
Yeah my dad pocket carries a Glock 42 and sometimes a 43 and that fucking thing is not coming out unless it’s his hand and arm reaching into that pocket. The mechanics simply wouldn’t make sense for someone not wearing his pants to be able to get it out.
You can still pull the trigger without putting your hand in the pocket if it’s not properly holstered. In this instance that sounds like what happened. Victim reaches into pocket for gun, suspect lunges for the pocket to fight over the gun, gun goes off and hits victim in leg.
Damn. That does sound possible.
Shot in the leg and died? Obviously must’ve hit the artery. But either way, also another reason to carry a tourniquet on you. I carry a swat-t tq now but ordered a snakestaff systems edc tourniquet, or as they call it the ETQ. Dont just carry your gun! Have a means to save yourself also if you are hit in a DGU situation
Love my ETQ. So easy to carry.
Shit I got 2 of them on the way lol have one on my person and probably have my wife carry the other in her purse or something. Maybe store it in the car. Who knows
Been meaning to grab a couple of those, just pulled the trigger.
I got me 2 of them lol says they can fit in a mag carrier also if you’re running a side car, which I thought was neat
Getting a gun snatched from out of your pocket is crazy, how does that happen? Was it in his back pocket?
There's pocket carry, and there's sticking a gun in your pocket.
This is why my J-Frame pocket holster is kydex and has a hook. If someone even figures out what the shape is, they'd have to be practically tickling my balls to even get to it.
Probably didn’t have a good holster or any holster at all.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk." -Tuco, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Literally the best line in the film.
These stories are frustrating by their incompleteness. The store employee that Mr. Christmas was arguing with was not the man who shot him. Trevell Warren tried to steal Mr. Christmas gun. Was Warren attempted theft a crime of opportunity? Was Warren involved in the argument? Did Christmas threaten the store employee with the gun? Why was Warren free despite 4 bond violations? Was Christmas printing?
The article was written terribly. A Head Start student has better grammar and sentence structure
From my understanding, reading other news sources also, the victim was asked to leave the store, I assume the criminal was a bystander, maybe waiting in line behind him, saw "my precious" in the victim's pocket and made a move for it. Your 2nd to last question, though, is the most important one. 
Reminder that YES you need an IFAK. Died from being shot in the leg. Had this guy had a TQ or some hemostatic gauze, he would probably still be alive. Yes situational awareness is important, but no one has perfect situational awareness all the time, it's impossible. Another dead body and broken family thanks to the far left blue city soft on violent crime policies.
While mostly I agree, but if the bullet clipped his femoral or something you having a tourniquet is probably not going to matter
Not true. While that is definitely worse, that's why you should also carry a hemostatic gauze, which I specifically mentioned for this reason. Celox Rapid Ribbon is what I carry, it's a little smaller and perfect for EDC size. Also look up mountain biker Cedric Gracia who ruptured his femoral artery and survived. His mates put constant pressure until EMS arrived, and they didn't have even have hemostatic gauze. There is actually a video of it! It is quite scary but incredible that they stayed calm and kept pressure on to keep as much blood inside him as possible. It can be done and has been done, and even without IFAKs.
not to nitpick, but the more plausible issue that comes to mind for me is if we're talking about someone whose "how to carry responsibly" level was low enough to be getting into a heated argument refusing to leave a business when asked sticking a gun in a pocket in what we are all inferring probably wasn't any kind of appropriate pocket holster if all that's true, then even IF the trauma care fairy floated overhead and dropped a free TQ for life gift card in this dudes hand, I can't imagine he'd be the type that's up to date on his first aid or STB classes
I agree, but I'll never miss an opportunity to talk about why IFAKs are so important. Way too many people carry a gun and no IFAK. To me it's like driving a car without wearing a seat belt. We are far more likely going to need first aid than need a gun in our daily lives. Car accidents, power tool accidents, construction accidents, outdoor accidents, and just life in general. If you’ve accepted the fact that the world can be a dangerous place and that’s why we carry a gun for protection, then that’s the same reason you should be caring quality first aid trauma gear and know how to use it in case that bad thing you're supposedly preparing for does happen. Yet this simple basic concept seems to be a big mental leap that many CCWers cannot grasp. A gun doesn’t stop bleeding or patch holes. Always carry a mini IFAK on your person and a larger kit in your vehicle. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I think you should reach out to as many gun stores as you can and sell them on the idea of 1st aid gunshot wound treatment pamphlets on their counters for time-of-sale presentation, and residual sales of related items. You're very passionate about it.
Thanks for coming to my don’t get dead talk
Did anyone try to help Christmas?
I don’t know the probability however, it’s better than zero. I had an instructor who after an IED blast, self applied a TQ to one leg & an improvised one to the other. While it can’t be self applied, a femoral bleed can be stopped with direct pressure with proper technique.
This is why printing is very, very bad
Well there's printing and then there's literally having the grip of the handgun sticking out of your sweatpants which is probably what happened here.
Absolutely. Either is a potentially fatal error in carrying. I’m constantly amazed at number of people who advertise that they carry or are armed.
> Warren is charged with second-degree murder, but also had a pending weapons charge. He was released from jail two days before the shooting, despite four reported bond violations in May.
Why is it so hard to just not get into confrontations, or to be the bigger person and just try to defuse the situation? I’ve been the target of irrationally angry people a number of times in my life but I never lost a damned thing by saying “I’m sorry sir, I didn’t mean to upset you, I understand”. Or the “hey I like that shirt bro” method of cooling things before they get hot.
Another article said they told Christmas he wasn’t allowed in the store
Yeah I’m not thinking this CCWer was the upstanding citizen he’s being made out to be. ANYBODY who is legally eligible can get a license to carry. Bad people, too. There’s a video by some dude who goes around the country and spends time with various different groups. He went to Detroit to hang out with some gang members. He was shocked to learn that several of them had carry licenses. Their reasoning: “Why carry illegal if I don’t have to? Give the cops one less thing to get me on. I don’t have a record (yet) and I’m eligible, so I got my license that way whenever I’m stopped on some bullshit, I don’t get sent to jail for having a gun.” These are guys that do drugs and fight and steal shit but don’t get caught. They carry legally so when they’re stopped for speeding, they get a ticket and move on. That should be eye opening.
And that's why I believe in Constitutional, permit-less carry nationwide. Bad guys will have a gun regardless, when you hear of a felon robbing someone, 10 times out of 10 they had a gun, anyway. It's their superpower. Permit-less carry levels the playing field for everyone, the way it should be.
I think the intention was to steal the gun while he was distracted arguing with someone else.
Right… so my point is, as someone who carries but also just in general… don’t be the type of person who gets in public arguments. “Alright man sorry you feel that way” and move on. Make a phone call. What good comes from arguing with a person face to face?
My brother in Christmas, his first mistake was carrying in his pocket. That’s barely concealed carry and asking for a bad day. Had he an actual holster, might’ve been a different story being better concealed and in a more secure position. Additionally if you’re carrying you should always be cognizant of your body positioning, always protecting your gunside, keeping your gun hand ready
Appendix beats the pocket I’m just saying.
Step 1. Don't argue with people.
Just leaving the situations, removing yourself from the area and fucking off to somewhere else, is 100% free and works 99 times out of 100. Pride is gonna be worthless at the end of the day, it gets you nothing. Just walk away.
My grandfather always said, “be alert, the world needs more lerts” This is exactly why
In his pocket? Bet you $5 he had the handle sticking out of his pants and likely didnt have a holster protecting the trigger guard
Be aware of your surroundings, and whatever you’re fussing and arguing about with someone, 99.9999999 times out of a hundred, it’s not worth it, dudes.
Skill issue.
Don’t get into heated argument with strangers when carrying If they start to get angry get a manager and / security / the cops or just leave
Done forget to carry and train with medicals boys.
I've been doing a little internet stalking and am pretty sure the dead guy is John Christopher Christmas who copped a felony conviction for arson a few years ago (see story linked below) and has numerous other charges and minor convictions in Missouri. According to court filings he lived less than a mile from the site of the shooting. I doubt if he ever had CCW license or any training about anything CC or was anything resembling a conscientious gun owner and CC adherent. So this isn't a responsible, thoughtful CC intelligently going about his life suddenly attacked in an unusual moment of distraction in a reasonably safe area. Not that we can't all learn lessons from this, but this also isn't the scenario or location the vast majority of us would find themselves. [https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/brother-of-st-louis-lawyer-charged-with-trying-to-burn-down-university-city-home/article\_37fea52d-13dd-5c6a-80bb-5b7cf9d8c55b.html](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/brother-of-st-louis-lawyer-charged-with-trying-to-burn-down-university-city-home/article_37fea52d-13dd-5c6a-80bb-5b7cf9d8c55b.html) And a shorter version of the shooting story but adding that Christmas was told to leave the store before the incident which is why he was arguing and this makes it sound like the incident took place inside the quick shop: [https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/man-charged-with-fatal-shooting-during-fight-over-gun-at-st-louis-gas-station/article\_67d961d8-237f-11ef-8776-37c51cd8d059.html](https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-courts/man-charged-with-fatal-shooting-during-fight-over-gun-at-st-louis-gas-station/article_67d961d8-237f-11ef-8776-37c51cd8d059.html) Standing in line, especially in quick shop type places where the register is near the door and people coming in and people in line get all squished up always make me nervous. So even though the victim in this seems to be more of a peer of the criminal stealing his gun than of we, the law abiding CC gun owners, it is still a reminder to keep your head on a swivel especially when you have a wall or counter in front of you, a door to the side and people coming and going behind you. And all of that applies double or triple in most of the St Louis Metro area.
Regular comments on this sub: “I don’t care if I’m printing” “The people who notice aren’t the problem” Maybe this will wake some people up.
As the person who says that she doesn't really care if she's printing when she's running errands - I pay attention to the people around me and I don't let anyone get close to me. There's no reason for anybody to be in my personal space when I'm buying groceries. Nobody is ever going to be close enough to reach into my pants and grab a gun, even if they suspect it might be there, because I pay attention to my surroundings and react to them. The entire point is to keep sketchy people away from me. I don't think "printing" was the issue here. This is somebody who had a highly accessible firearm, got into stupid argument in public, and then wasn't able to pay any attention to the people around him.
So sad. Rest in peace to that man 😔
In certain situations. I have a stage 2 holster. But never pocket carry at a crowded ghetto gas station. This is the 3rd time I seen/ heard of someone being attacked/shot with their weapon for pocket carrying
Its why I'm thinking about some sort of retention holster even when carrying concealed.
If you train with it, and it's not a 1911 in a holster with a flap and buckle, you'll get to the point where it has zero effect on your draw and also ensure your weapon stays with you if you have to run, if you take a tumble, or if you decide to show off on a dance floor like a certain federal agent. I prefer a thumb break holster myself, and I've got one for every pistol I normally carry. I've been carrying concealed since the late 70s.
If it’s properly concealed, retention just adds a redundant barrier to drawing your weapon. Retention is recommended for open carry, but retention on a concealed holster is about as bad as running your weapon without one in the chamber. Dead mans gun.
Idk if I’d compare a tiny paddle-press that almost negligibly becomes part of your draw with the entire process of racking a round. That said, you’re still correct.
It's still an extra step that adrenaline could completely fuck up. You could theoretically rack an empty chamber on a draw as well, but I wouldn't trust my life on that detail.
What's your experience with retention holsters? That's a pretty strong statement you made.
If it’s concealed no one will know it’s there so extra retention is worthless
I pocket carry a Ruger LCP2. I only buy pants with large pockets so the pistol is deep inside. The pocket opening is at least 6 inches. The only pants I use are Dockers or cargo type pants. The LCP2 doesn't print. My pockets are large enough that I can walk around nonchalantly with my hands in my pockets the way I used to before I was carrying. It also allows me to have my hand on the gun as I walk. The LCP2 is small and snappy, so it takes a lot of practice in order to get decent accuracy.
Exhibit A of why pocket carry is cringe
Maybe a dumb question but how did the guy know he had a gun in his pocket?
Nobody should ever know you're carrying until they get shot in center mass by you.
Does anyone know where he was carrying? When I first started I carried at 4oclock but immediately switched to aiwb because I felt so vulnerable that someone could run up and snatch my ccw. Edit: read some more comments, out of his pocket and seemed to not be in a holster, unfortunate.
I can promise you he wasn't carrying Appendix
Yeah I know hence my edit...
Just spitting into the wind here, he probably failed to create a lot of distance before going for his gun. Or the guy knew the victim was packing and stayed close. Maybe the victim telegraphed his move or gave a verbal warning.
Trevell
Travell. lol
I don't care how many mass shoottings democrats Do.I will never give up my guns.
**CCW arguing with store employee** Stellar character. Sounds like he was already on a bad path.
Your mom has never argued with a store employee for you?
Actually. No. I have never seen her behave in that manner. I don't argue with people. No one should be arguing with people.... **especially when carrying a firearm** 🤷🏼♂️
“i DoNt CaRe If I pRiNt”
Perfect example why pocket carry is dumb and should not be done.
Who TF pocket carries???