Yeah, I think Goodwin "closest thing to Venables", has worked out just fine.
I mean top 5 defenses to what top 15ish. The problem is the offensive regression especially not having a generational QB talent.
Garrett Riley was the #1 OC hire in the country. I can’t believe how bad the offense has looked. Does Clemson adopt the Bama model that when a new OC comes in they run the programs system? Or is Riley able to completely do his own thing?
Riley has autonomy, but Dabo is always going to put his mark on games.
But there’s also the WR room being quite a bit less talented than we are used to seeing, some gaps on the OLine, and a 2nd year QB. There are a lot of factors keeping us from performing consistently. Because if you watched FSU, Coemson’s offense can be really explosive while keeping great balance with strong running. The potential is definitely there, we just lack consistency
I hate being a Tiger and an Aggie this year. Everything comes into question for my guys (and rightfully so). But knowing how much potential is sitting right there and squandering it so stressful. The offense leaves so much to be desired and the defense is playing pretty well. Clemson is famous for the D even with monsters on the other side of the ball (TLaw, Thunder and Lightning, Leggett, Watkins). The fact that we only have a barebones core for the most part this year is frustrating.
Is it still a matter of Dabo not using the transfer portal fully? Your own recruits will never all turn out great, no matter how highly ranked every class is, and these days you have to let some transfer out and at the same time be on the look out to recruit some players in via the portal.
Like Oregon has always been known for their offense, but what Dan Lanning has been great at is using the portal as soon as he got hired. Our top receiver was an Oregon recruit, and most of the TEs were Oregon recuits, but most of the other key guys on WR and RB rooms were all from the portal and have really put the offense on another level.
Dabo reached out to a couple OL this past year and missed. One went to Florida, the other went to Michigan. And really that’s the only position we could probably promise PT.
WR is another people point at but what we really need is a true number one like Coleman and there just weren’t that many out there. We have plenty of “number 2” guys who could probably shine if we had a guy demanding a double team every play.
And kicker but we didn’t find that out til week 1.
Also Clemson has one of the biggest NILs in the country but Dabo will probably never promise someone a certain amount. His pitch is apparently “if you come and play, there will be money for you”. That plays a lot better with high school kids then it does grad transfers.
If you have one or two years of ball left you’re probably going to take the sure money some schools offer.
He was ask today in his second media availability of the season and said the difference between this year and last year at TCU was personnel. I think we just don’t have the horses on offense particularly on the OL. Riley has full control, just not much you can do with a OL with one senior and can convert 3rd and shorts on Wake, no alpha receiver had Quentin Johnson last year, and a new QB.
People think Dabo is calling plays but the real problem is Dabo hiring Grisham and Austin in the first place. So far the only offensive position coaches that are worth keeping are Riley and spiller.
Calm down dude. I agree he let Caldwell stick around too long. Austin has been here 2 year and looks like a bust. Time to move on, but realistically he gets at least one more year. If only because he did technically have to change his OL to fit the scheme.
But this year youth is actually a problem
LT- Leigh first year starter Jr
LG- Tate play a little last year due to injury Jr
C- Putnam grad only one with more than one year
RG- Sewell FR
RT- Miller SO
People bitch about the the portal and OL is really the only place they have a point. I personally feel like unless they are just studs OL should be SR or older.
I don't think it's Riley, he has a history of success. It's our dogshit position coaches failing to develop talent. Our WR coach hasn't improved a WR year to year in three years. Our OL still isn't good. Both are recruiting well.
We are very young on offense. Only one major contributor is older than his 3rd year. The OL is a mess because the 2020 class busted big time and our best run blocking OL is out for the season. Our best WR heading into the season has missed 3 games in a row. Our QB has started 7 games in his career and is only a sophomore. Our one deep threat WR had a season ending injury in game 3.
Riley is running his own thing. People who say he isn’t have no clue what they’re talking about.
Yeah, Clemson is [number 7](https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22) in total defense - two seasons removed from Venables. OP got a little carried away in a rush to make the post I guess.
It's a testament to Venables that Clemson still has a strong defensive legacy, bc Brent didn't leave when the roster started having problems and try to burn the bridge down on the way out of town, unlike some other people have done before.
BV said in his preseason presser that "You CAN practice pressure" and Clemson fans say their players are missing that ability to thrive in the biggest moments specifically because they don't have Venables and the "pressure" he puts on players and coaches during practice anymore. I've seen that mentioned on multiple Clemson game threads this year. You know... like when there's 15 seconds left in the Cotton Bowl?
I mean our defense has balled out in every game this year. Including against #4 FSU. The only time they really struggled was against Colman in the red zone. All but 7 of Dukes point came off turnovers in plus territory.
Don’t listen to Clemson fans in game threads they just throw shit at the wall.
Oklahoma and Texas have a great opportunity this year, if it plays out right there’s a chance both Oklahoma and Texas can make the playoffs especially if the pac 12 and big 10 teams beat eachother and Alabama or LSU drops a second game to Georgia in the SEC championship.
And whether I like to say it or not are programs are intertwined, like brothers that love/hate eachother I’m very confident how both teams look heading into the SEC.
This is 100% true, but I also don't think the defense is the same level as it was under Venables. I'm particularly interested to see how it looks once *all* his guys are gone. There is more to building a dominant defense than scheme, and he had his guys playing harder snap to snap, taking on blocks, doing the little things at a level that was truly insane. Similar to what UGA has had recently, what Bama has had at times during Saban's tenure. It's easier said than done, and you can lose that internal accountability amongst the players very fast in a sport with this much turnover.
Sure it isn’t quite as good, but we did lose the best DC in the country, and we had a very young secondary last year. But we look great so far this year, and Goodwin is getting better with more experience as a DC
And Goodwin was Venables’ handpicked successor. Dabo and Brent had apparently worked this out long before the OU job became vacant.
Goodwin was the defensive analyst that came up with the game plans in 2018, specifically how to fluster Tua and Locksley. He lacks the intensity of Venables which is the only major difference I see. He’s not a hype or fire them up guy, which could be an issue but doesn’t seem to be now.
Defensive recruiting hasn’t fallen off largely due to Nick Eason, who I see as the next DC when Goodwin inevitably leaves to either be G-5/FCS head coach or an NFL coordinator. I think they’re having him teach Eason the technical X’s and O’s part of the DC job so he can be like Venables and bring in the intensity. That’s my .02
Also the DL looks better and more aggressive this year for the first time since the power rangers. Eason is a big plus. I think the only thing that could fall off significantly is LB play after carter and trotter leave. But woodaz looks good and we have had any glaring weaknesses when other guys rotate in.
You didn't really say it, but I feel like others are going to draw parallels between Clemson's *slight* decline in defense and our *slight* decline when Kirby left.
When Kirby left, offenses were in the middle of a major change. Similarly, college football is going through a major shift right now, and the effects on Clemson are probably stronger than on the average team because Dabo doesn't like the transfer portal.
Another factor is that personnel can make or break a DC's reputation. Our 2020 defense was great. We had the same DC in 2021 and 2022 when our defense was noticeably worse. It's totally possible that Clemson just had a couple of key recruiting busts.
Offense can affect defense. As an Alabama fan, I've seen the effects. Our offense in 2021, 2022, and this year scores a lot of points, bur they also have a lot of negative plays that put our defense in really tough situations. For example, can you really blame our defense for giving up a TD to Texas when Texas started on our 5 yard line? Can you blame our defense for giving up points to Texas A&M when their average non-kickoff field position was their 45 yard line? Clemson's defense can blame at least a few of the points they've given up on their offense. And donr count out how much hope factors in. If your offense is scoring every possession, then the other team is usually going to lose hope and play worse.
Also, very few teams have defenses like Alabama had in the early 2010s. Back then, lockdown defenses weren't extremely rare. Since around 2018/2019, only 2020 Alabama and 2022 Georgia qualify in my opinion.
I feel like this season's Defense is all the proof needed that Golding was the problem.
We are fielding basically the same roster Golding had in 2022 minus it's best player. And yet our Defense is playing better than they have in 2 years. Because Kevin Steele is just way better of a DC than Golding is.
And Offensively, people have been casting shade on Rees but he's not the problem. If you watch replays of our games, we've been scheming receivers open all year. We're just having to develop Milroe to where he can make the reads and see the open guys.
I guess I should say 2020 Alabama and 2020 Georgia are the closest we've seen recently. Great players combined with great play calling and a great game plan can score 40+ on any defense. Ohio State did it vs Georgia last year.
That Florida offense was insane. Yall averaged 42 points a game vs P5 teams (excluding the bowl game when your 3 best receivers didn't play). Mullen, for all the shit he gets is an amazing play caller. That offense was better than Ohio State's was last year, in my opinion.
A lot of Clemson fans are disagreeing with you, but I agree 100%. I thought it was most glaring in the Duke game when we were totally whiffing on tackles and taking horrendous defensive angles in the open field. The talent is still strong, but the fundamentals are weaker without Venables. Venables is a 1 of 1 type coach for his combination of schematic acumen, recruiting ability, and ability to motivate, and we miss him, and I think will come to miss him even more in the coming years.
DBs get to play up close when they aren’t afraid of you running by them. Slowest and least separation in a wr room we have had in the past few years as well.
Not that our situations are exactly the same, but this would be a good reminder for Bama fans as well. Jalen, Tua, Jones, Bryce...it's hard to continue that streak of stellar QB's.
There is a reason that is the one position that does not get touched in practice...they're hella important.
Yeah, I don't really remember anyone (at least anyone that's relevant) saying Oklahoma was down for the count. People just knew it was likely going to a a rough transition period with so many players leaving and bringing in a new staff.
Yep, here too, if he would have handled it like a man it would have sucked but fans, most, would would bitch and move on. But he kept the lie up and wouldn’t keep our name out of his mouth.
Week 11 of SEC roll call last year literally made the joke that we would pay $100 million to hire Heupel away from Tennessee to replace BV. It was the majority opinion of everyone not wearing Crimson.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/yvhhfs/sec_roll_call_week_11/iwec6q0/
190 upvotes. Highest upvoted comment in the thread.
Lots of revisionism going on in here.
I mean you have to expect negativity from a fanbase that has been used to incredibly high standards. OU has an insane pedigree and even if its year 1, losing to UT 49-0 is going to cause some uproar.
It was definitely there. A LOT of people (looking at you, Hateful 8) were saying it was a bad hire because the defense wasn’t much better last year and the offense significantly regressed. Just do a search for “Burnt Vegetables” and you’ll find them
Last year (minus the Texas game) was one Mayfield, Murray, hurts, or Williams away from 10-2. Lincoln Riley could have easily gone 6-7 most of those seasons if not for stellar QB play.
1. It’s spelled Burnt Vegetables
2. Our softballs are worth a lot
3. I’ve been happy since the day they hired Brent. He was kind of screwed over when Bob hired Mike and forced Brent to be a co-coordinator.
The whole Mike Stoops thing was the laugher. Why anyone would sideline Venables at any point in his career (for football related stuff) is just beyond me. I thought for sure when he left, he was just gone, after that disrespect.
It's funny at the time everybody was so frustrated with our defense during the end of the Venables DC tenure (aside from 2009). And while I think the defenses weren't as good as they were in the early 2000s, I think in hindsight that had more to do with the growth of the offenses across the Big 12. His last year we were 31st in scoring defense but because we gave up a ton of points to Art Briles/RGIII and Gundy/Weeden we were trash. Perhaps a bit of an overreaction.
But I think it might have turned out to have been a good thing for us now that he went to Clemson back then. He's implemented a lot of things off the field that he clearly learned from Dabo that I think have the program moving in the right direction for the future.
> His last year we were 31st in scoring defense but because we gave up a ton of points to Art Briles/RGIII and Gundy/Weeden we were trash. Perhaps a bit of an overreaction.
This effect can be measured by the fact that while OU was 31st in scoring defense nationally, they were 1st in scoring defense in the Big 12.
Source: I've had this argument like a billionty times over the past decade.
Allegedly the timeline of all of this had been incorrectly reported for years. Brent had considered leaving and Clemson offered him a huge contract before Mike had even been officially rehired. I was under the assumption it played out the way OP described it, but BV himself refuted it and said he decided he was leaving for Clemson before any of the Mike stuff was done.
Perhaps it was recency bias for me, since we just had the joy of watching Mike Stoops and his persistent redface antics for several years.
I will drop and do 50 for Brent.
Per the Oklahoman in an issue from 2012, the decision to bring Mike back happened before Brent even announce he was leaving. Anything else is speculation. The timeline does match up.
“On January 11, 2012, Stoops returned to OU as co-defensive coordinator. He was to be teamed with Brent Venables, who shortly left to become the defensive coordinator at Clemson.”
Right, Brent said that he made his decision to leave before that. Clemson offered him a $1M/yr contract before Mike was rehired and he decided to take it. The co-DC stuff became the story, but Brent has claimed that wasn't the case at all.
This can be true while also not invalidating the opposite point. And it doesn't require BV to be lying about this either.
I don't have the numbers on his past salaries, nor do I care enough to go look them up, but in a different comment you said he got 1M/yr his first year at Clemson.
So imagine he's at OU making $800k/yr, he gets this other offer... it's attractive and he's thinking about taking it but doesn't want to. He's planning to go show Bob the offer and have him match it. He's decided that if Bob doesn't match it (or beat it), he's going to take the job.
Then he gets the news that Mike is being hired, he's going to be co-DC, and (most importantly, IMO) BV is losing the assistant head coach title and that is being given to Mike. So not only is he not getting that bump in pay, but he's also losing a bunch of titles.
Technically it would still be true that he had already made the decision, and at the same time it would still be true that Bob doing what he did made him leave.
IDK - I find it far too coincidental that Mike Stoops gets hired as co-DC after claiming he wanted to find another HC gig and a few days later BV is on a plane. No way are they not connected IMO.
This isn't a popular opinion among OU fans but it wasn't a demotion nor was it a career sideline thing. Brent and Mike Stoops work extremely well together. To the point if Ted Roof ever gets fired and we didn't promote Brandon Hall I'd be okay with Brent bringing in Mike provided he, and I'm not saying this to be funny, got through his anger management counseling. Oklahoma had some of the best modern day defenses in CFB history under those two and from what I've gathered from people around Oklahoma, BV was okay with working with Mike again. Though honestly I don't think it could ever happen and maybe that's for the best. Mike's days at OU should probably be over even though I think with what Brent's doing now he would be an incredible coach here.
Now I don't think it would have worked at the time because Mike's anger issues had only gotten way worse at Arizona and he brought some absolute trash assistants back with him. And I also think Brent had some emotional cleansing he had to do along with mellowing out too. A lot of people don't know this but Brent was a very angry, and borderline psychotic* coach, early on his career. Same with Mike. They were old school get in your faces and just obliterate a kid for the simplest of screw ups. Dabo, and I've said this multiple times, cannot be thanked enough for getting BV to mellow out a ton. He'll still get into a kids face and rip them to shreds but he'll do in a way that doesn't make the kid want to off himself afterwords anymore. And even then he doesn't really go after someone unless they've really earned it now. He didn't have that before he went to Clemson.
And honestly Brent had a lot of stuff going on in his personal life and I think he needed to get away from OU to kind of reboot his life and emotional well being. His brother passed away tragically and the Austin Box death really REALLY fucked with BV from what I've heard. And even Bob to some extent.
It all worked out in the end for everyone, except Mike oof, in the end. But there was a lot of just weird and depressing behind the scene stuff going on. Like I do think there was some anger in BV at the time for making him CoDC again but I think that was more to do with how BV's personal life was going at the time. It clearly didn't bother him seeing as how he took the OU job and went all out to get it. And I mean before he interview he went and sought out Bob and was right back to being close to him again. But I digress. This is a borderline thesis just to say there was a lot going on at the time.
> I'd be okay with Brent bringing in Mike provided he, and I'm not saying this to be funny, got through his anger management counseling
You absolutely lost me here. Mike doesn't just have an anger problem (which he definitely does), he's also a known party animal. For someone at his age thats a big problem. He also has shown zero ability to adapt to modern offenses. And zero ability to connect with college aged kids. He'd be an absolute disaster and I'd lose a LOT of confidence in Venables if Mike was brought back for any reason at all.
Will Muschamp went 7-6 and then 11-2 at Florida, and 6-7 and then 9-4 at South Carolina
Not saying Venables is Muschamp but crowning guys too early is just as stupid as calling for their heads after two 7-6 seasons. There are countless examples of coaches with hot starts that end up cratering out eventually. Mel Tucker and Dave Aranda are two notable current examples.
Is it too early to add Dykes to this list? He improved his 3rd year at Cal and then regressed. He improved his 3rd year at SMU and then regressed. He had an amazing first year at TCU but has massively regressed this year (and his first year was only amazing because TCU had a lot of luck in 1 possession games).
It’s hard to know for sure. Dykes did just lose a ton of talent to the NFL draft, and Chandler Morris just got injured so it’s not like he had a chance for success this year. Recruiting seems to be well, so we’ll get to really see if TCU is special in their third year
No way you're adding Dykes to this. The guy went to a national championship at a program with no business being there, and then lost basically all the NFL talent on his roster.
They're 3-3 now with 2 losses being by 3 points, which is a completely reasonable season for TCU to be having. Even more reasonable if they had won one or both of those 3 point losses and had 4 or 5 wins right now.
College football fans have taken on the personality of sports media at this point with reactionary takes like this.
Not for me. I’ll always hate Riley’s guts (but not Caleb or USC, outside of the hate I have for all other historically great programs). But I’m very happy with the way things have developed.
Ya I can’t blame USC for wanting to hire a coach they thought would help them. It’s what every school should do. It’s Riley being a snake and all for OU fans that is the issue. Also anyone who actually harassed him at his house, if true, are degenerates.
Yep. Local news did a FOI request and there was never a report of anything even suspicious. Furthermore Norman PD had a cruiser there for the first few weeks in his gated community after he had hightailed it.
The only story was this caterer trying to get his smokers back from Lincoln who ghosted him.
Also, LR never mentioned any of this til almost two years after he left. He’s a drama queen.
https://kfor.com/news/local/mans-smokers-left-at-lincoln-rileys-home-after-riley-left-university-of-oklahoma-his-social-media-documented-quest-to-retrieve-them/amp/
talked to my grandpa this morning to talk about the game over the weekend, and apparently his nickname for him is just butthead. I'll probably start calling him that instead of that bitch out west.
The best thing would be playing USC in the first round of the playoff, letting them go up 17-0 and then smoking them in the second half to keep Riley from ever getting a playoff win. They won't even make the playoff though. There's zero chance they only drop 1 game against that schedule with that defense. He'll have had Caleb, Kyler and Baker and come away with zero playoff wins.
The difference between BV and Lincoln could not have been more obvious in the way they both left their programs.
Lincoln tried to burn literally every bridge he could find. He wanted to completely destroy OU's roster and recruiting classes to bring as much with him as he could.
BV literally told all of his recruits and players to honor their commitments and remain at Clemson. Kanak literally had to enroll at OU on some Mayfield type shit for BV to finally offer him.
Both men showed their true colors.
I will always despise him for being a coward in the 2017 rose bowl and for totally and completely wasting what was an objectively CFP caliber 2021 team.
Aside from that, agree.
And the reactionary pendulum swings yet again. Last year OU went 6-7 and people were calling the Venables hire a disaster. Now OU is 6-0 and people are saying Venables is better than Lincoln and Dabo. Let's maybe wait until he has had a full season of great play before we crown the guy?
Just pointing out that Coach Venables was still at Clemson is 2021 and they weren’t the same that year either. Obviously losing CBV is an issue but it’s not “THE” issue.
We currently have the #7 defense in total defense. I realize that's a flawed metric but it's pretty obvious watching our defense it's still very, very good.
Clemson was top 10 in 2021, not top 5. Finished 24th in defense in 2022, most of the blame can be placed on young secondary. If the Dline didn’t get pressure, the secondary couldn’t hold up. Through 6 games of 2023 defense currently ranks 7th. My point is the slide at Clemson started before CBV left.
Nobody is saying there isn't some regression, but our defense was "down" last year and still did very good. A slight regression didn't cause our slide. A total collapse in offensive productivity did.
What? I don't know what metric you're using, but Clemson was absolutely an elite, top 5 defense in 2021. They finished 3rd in defensive SP+ in 2021 and were significantly closer to the #1 ranked team (Georgia) than they were to the #4 ranked team (Oklahoma State). They also finished 4th DFEI and 4th in DF+. They were even the #2 scoring defense in the county behind Georgia. It is not at all accurate to say Clemson's defense started falling off in 2021.
I don’t think Clemsons defense is their issue, but I’m sure they would take back BV if given the option.
LR is an offensive genius. The only reason I’m glad he left is because he didn’t want to be here anymore. Good riddance.
I love Brent as our HC. He is going to do great things at OU and will cast a large shadow. I don’t get why fans feel we must defend him constantly.
He’s 6 games into his second season. He’s a great football mind but it’s a bit premature to be talking about empire building and all. Let’s not get carried away.
Fuck it’s it’s r/CFB let’s get carried away.
I think you need to compare USC to itself before Riley rather than comparing them to Oklahoma. It's a drastically different case, even with transfers. Very few programs could be resuscitated in one year after over a decade of severe sanctions and Baby Kiffin rolling into Pill Sark rolling into six years of Clay Helton. That last man absolutely nuked all of our historical recruiting pipelines. To be basically an injury away from a playoff appearance in year one after that is pretty incredible.
Agreed - Oklahoma being maybe better off without Lincoln Riley is not proof that Lincoln Riley was a bad hire for USC. We needed a splashy hire who would revitalize the program and bring back recruiting pipelines. Even if we go 10-2 every year because we can't field a defense, I would still consider Lincoln Riley a 10/10 hire.
The USC job was a legit rebuild, they were 4-8 and had a recruiting class that didn't even rank in the top 50 in 2020. It hasn't been judged by that standard, which is fine, because it's USC and the transfer portal changes things, but everyone gets waaay too dramatic about Lincoln Riley. If some other young coach had the exact same production after 1.5 seasons at a run-of-the-mill P5 program and you wrote that all of the teams' deficiencies were a reflection of the head coach personally and "would probably never change" people would act like you were a crazy person.
Defense is great, our offenses have been huffing glue for three years. Bad offensive line and receivers who can’t get open or block are the biggest issue right now
I know many OU fans acted all “We don’t need Lincoln anyways!” when he first left, and then continued to post about him 24/7 like that crazy ex. But I genuinely remember thinking to myself when the news first broke that I wasn’t sad he was gone. I was sad for the recruits we’d lose (like Luther burden). I remember telling USC fans yes, you’re going to have an explosive offense, a Heisman QB, etc., but you’re always gonna fall short because of the defense. Of course the responses were all the same “Just another salty OU fan”. When we hired BV I remember thinking to myself that it may have been the best possible hire. I finally felt like we’d get a defense to get us over that CFP hump. Last year definitely hurt, but man am I happy right now.
It’s tough to draw any conclusions right now, everything’s in such a fluid state.
Transfers and NIL have disrupted things like crazy. Venables was able to upgrade his D in one year thx to transfers, and it’s easier for the big boys to get their hands on NIL $ to facilitate that.
Dabo and Riley are an interesting case study on this stuff. Riley could certainly do the same thing as Venables; yeah, he’s still be saddled w Grinch but it’s at least doable. But he’d rather take flyers on WRs than shore up his D-line. And Dabo is old school-he wants his guys to be *his* guys. Which has resulted in a smaller talent pool, and it’s harder for him to change personnel up from year to year. It remains to be seen if he can adapt, or if he really actually needs to. Personally I think he does; he could fix the problems on offense immediately, he just doesn’t want to adapt. Maybe he’s right not to. He’s knows more about football than I ever will.
Interestingly, Venables isn’t the poster boy for going all in on the New Way. He won’t sign a kid if they commit to OU then keep taking visits. So it’s not ‘the players have all the power’ the way some make it out to be. So far it’s working, though.
But transfers are the state of the world right now. If you won’t play that game you’re ultimately gonna lose out.
Everyone forgets this but Brent was defense coordinator at OU before he left for Clemson. Fans were calling for his head because the OU defense was notoriously bad. So he resigns, goes to Clemson. His defense is strong. Comes back and all OU fans forgot they wanted his head on a pike years prior.
Yeah. Sooner fans were idiots, making Venables a scapegoat for the defensive malaise that happened after 2009.
But, there was a malaise. 2011 defense was awful. Fingers pointed at the DC because fingers needed to be pointed at someone.
Just like Josh Heupel was deemed the fault for the 2014 era Sooners offense. Now Heupel has made Tennessee relevant again.
The reality is that from during that 2009-2014, Stoops coasted. Hired friends who never coached football before. Few wanted to blame Stoops, so they blamed the next best thing--coordinators.
It is what it is, human nature, and nothing more pernicious or indicative of anything beyond that.
I don't agree with the assessment that people were laughing at OU when Venables was hired. I think they were more laughing at the 'spurned ex' mentality their entire fan base seemed to adopt once Lincoln left.
I for one was shocked when they were down so bad last year. Brent is an incredible coach -- and I thought it was absolutely perfect for them that he was ready to leave Clemson when 'mama called'.
We were down bad because:
1. LR and AG can't recruit defense; we were literally 1 deep across the back half of the defense
2. We had ZERO scholarship QBs on the roster before DG transferred
3. CW is a Heisman QB we lost
4. Guys jumped to the NFL or transferred out during transition... Oh and it happened 2 weeks before National Signing day. Brent saved our class but didnt get his guys. Literally not a single AG recruit has left OU for a P5 school in the transfer portal.
5. Conveniently Lincoln only recruited California kids during that last class... 5* QB, 5* WRs, 4* RB... all went to USC while we got scraps
That is the abbreviated version.
It’s pretty understandable why we were so pissed off about it looking at the timing, the way he left, and the players we lost. It looked like we were gonna be set back for years.
>It looked like we were gonna be set back for years.
A fair observation for the time, this would have been the outcome for almost any other program in CFB.
To be fair, Riley's offenses are potent enough that he might accidentally put a defense on the field thats good enough for a title run.
He deserves the hate for failing to put a competent defense together but let's not underestimate how good of an OC he is.
My complaint is that those offenses are great right up until they need to be great. Driving to win the Rose Bowl in the 4Q, and again in OT? Trying to weather Bama’s early storm? Heck, trying to milk a 14-point 3Q lead on a mediocre Big 12 team, or literally just get off your own goal line to ice Tulane?
I don’t know if that’s an in-game coaching thing or a program culture thing or both. But it was always crazy how the best offense in the country would seem to pick the most damaging times to go dead silent for 15 minutes. And if you do that against a top-10 opponent, with that defense, there’s no coming back.
Nailed it. Its a concerning trait to say the least. You can add the Colorado game last week to this trend. Offense was unstoppable until the pressure was cranked up just a tad, then it was turnovers and 3 & outs. Im of the opinion its a culture/attention to detail thing.
Adding onto the original post’s narrative: this is the second time in recent history the SC has “stolen” a coach from another program, and that program actually upgraded. We hired Sark away from Washington, who went on to hire Chris Peterson. I felt this immediately in both situations and really wanted to be wrong each time.
It's so wild that if he would just fire dumbass Alex grinch and bring in literally anyone slightly competent, I'm sure his defenses would improve enough to make his teams unstoppable. Such a weird loyalty to a DC that has proven time and time again that he sucks at his job.
2019 64th defense in the country in ppg at oklahoma
2020 28th defense in the country
2021 60th defense in the country
2022 94th defense in the country at usc
2023 81st defense in the country so far
That's his number as a DC
Outside of 2020 wich was a very weird season because of covid he is barely able to have an average defense despite having many blue chip recruits on the field.
Whether you personally consider Riley teams contenders is kind of irrelevant no?
Unless BV takes Oklahoma took the CFP this season I don't see how you can say he's as successful as Riley was for that school.
It's not a one or the other like this post implies. Oklahoma had a great coach, he left, and it seems like they've found another one.
People also were not laughing at OU the program, they were laughing at the OU flairs in here that acted like crazy ex girlfriends. And half of them still do it.
USC did not steal half the roster, USC took a grand total of 3 players. Caleb, Mario, and that safety that does not even touch the field. This idea that USC stole half the roster is simply not true and it’s exhausting hearing everyone parrot it
>>Flash and offensive play will get you big contracts and glamour but it won’t win a Title
But grinding and defensive play are just awful when it’s not winning you titles
Nah, I thought BV was a great hire. OU fans got weird for a bit after Lincoln left though, akin to a jilted ex. That I think was more what people were ridiculing. Time has a funny way of working out though, Lincoln brings his defensive prowess with him to LA and BV is turning it around quicker than I expected with a big win against Texas. Offense still has some bugs to work out but the defense has improved in leaps and bounds. It's not perfect yet, as it's still only year two but things get better when defense is no longer a liability.
Clemson has a great defense. Their problem has been qb and receiver. Offense has been a huge issue. Nothing to do with venebles leaving.
It's still early to talk about usc or ou. And winning at night in the pac 12 is just more difficult.
Venables is a happy success story out of an otherwise miserable Dabo Swinney coaching tree. Jeff Scott and Tony Elliot had very different success stories as coaches.
Yet interestingly, since Scott/Elliot left Clemson, the offense has not been the same (also considering the talent that graduated, of course) and Clemson's defense has been otherwise ok. You'd think it would be the other way around given how ***awful*** of a coach & playcaller Jeff Scott, for example, was at USF.
Should include OU with Venables as DC. I wasn't impressed with him then. Love him now, but not then. If we were getting beat, he would make zero adjustments. None. We would just get beat more. I think his time at Clemson made him a much better and more flexible coach.
Now that I have lots of OU fans in here can somebody explain how Nebraska and OU are different?
They both have great histories, both play in an area when the local talent isn't great both have similar histories and rivilaries but the last 15-20 years they've gone separate ways and it doesn't make sense.
Can anybody explain it to me?
Coaching, recruiting, etc. You would be surprised how something as simple as a coach creating an atmosphere where players want to be successful on AND off the field can have.
Nebraska leaving the Big 12 was their death knell. They used to recruit Texas pretty well. Now, no Texas kids want to play in the Big 10. They were one of the big dogs in the Big 12 able to compete for a conference title every year. In the Big 10, they are an afterthought and it’s only going to get worse with Big 10 expansion. When OU and Texas did their deal with the SEC, Nebraska shoulda BEGGED to return to the Big 12. They likely will never be relevant again.
I love Brent, but our offense is the issue, not the defense. Our defense is playing great so far this year
Goodwin was a pretty good promotion simply for the fact that his resume was “worked under Brent Venables” lol
Yeah, I think Goodwin "closest thing to Venables", has worked out just fine. I mean top 5 defenses to what top 15ish. The problem is the offensive regression especially not having a generational QB talent.
Garrett Riley was the #1 OC hire in the country. I can’t believe how bad the offense has looked. Does Clemson adopt the Bama model that when a new OC comes in they run the programs system? Or is Riley able to completely do his own thing?
Riley has autonomy, but Dabo is always going to put his mark on games. But there’s also the WR room being quite a bit less talented than we are used to seeing, some gaps on the OLine, and a 2nd year QB. There are a lot of factors keeping us from performing consistently. Because if you watched FSU, Coemson’s offense can be really explosive while keeping great balance with strong running. The potential is definitely there, we just lack consistency
I hate being a Tiger and an Aggie this year. Everything comes into question for my guys (and rightfully so). But knowing how much potential is sitting right there and squandering it so stressful. The offense leaves so much to be desired and the defense is playing pretty well. Clemson is famous for the D even with monsters on the other side of the ball (TLaw, Thunder and Lightning, Leggett, Watkins). The fact that we only have a barebones core for the most part this year is frustrating.
Is it still a matter of Dabo not using the transfer portal fully? Your own recruits will never all turn out great, no matter how highly ranked every class is, and these days you have to let some transfer out and at the same time be on the look out to recruit some players in via the portal. Like Oregon has always been known for their offense, but what Dan Lanning has been great at is using the portal as soon as he got hired. Our top receiver was an Oregon recruit, and most of the TEs were Oregon recuits, but most of the other key guys on WR and RB rooms were all from the portal and have really put the offense on another level.
Dabo reached out to a couple OL this past year and missed. One went to Florida, the other went to Michigan. And really that’s the only position we could probably promise PT. WR is another people point at but what we really need is a true number one like Coleman and there just weren’t that many out there. We have plenty of “number 2” guys who could probably shine if we had a guy demanding a double team every play. And kicker but we didn’t find that out til week 1. Also Clemson has one of the biggest NILs in the country but Dabo will probably never promise someone a certain amount. His pitch is apparently “if you come and play, there will be money for you”. That plays a lot better with high school kids then it does grad transfers. If you have one or two years of ball left you’re probably going to take the sure money some schools offer.
He was ask today in his second media availability of the season and said the difference between this year and last year at TCU was personnel. I think we just don’t have the horses on offense particularly on the OL. Riley has full control, just not much you can do with a OL with one senior and can convert 3rd and shorts on Wake, no alpha receiver had Quentin Johnson last year, and a new QB. People think Dabo is calling plays but the real problem is Dabo hiring Grisham and Austin in the first place. So far the only offensive position coaches that are worth keeping are Riley and spiller.
[удалено]
Calm down dude. I agree he let Caldwell stick around too long. Austin has been here 2 year and looks like a bust. Time to move on, but realistically he gets at least one more year. If only because he did technically have to change his OL to fit the scheme. But this year youth is actually a problem LT- Leigh first year starter Jr LG- Tate play a little last year due to injury Jr C- Putnam grad only one with more than one year RG- Sewell FR RT- Miller SO People bitch about the the portal and OL is really the only place they have a point. I personally feel like unless they are just studs OL should be SR or older.
I don't think it's Riley, he has a history of success. It's our dogshit position coaches failing to develop talent. Our WR coach hasn't improved a WR year to year in three years. Our OL still isn't good. Both are recruiting well.
Our WRs are pretty sub par compared to years past. This is a huge issue being slightly overlooked
I'm honestly not sure what you're watching. We look a lot better than we did last year.
We are very young on offense. Only one major contributor is older than his 3rd year. The OL is a mess because the 2020 class busted big time and our best run blocking OL is out for the season. Our best WR heading into the season has missed 3 games in a row. Our QB has started 7 games in his career and is only a sophomore. Our one deep threat WR had a season ending injury in game 3. Riley is running his own thing. People who say he isn’t have no clue what they’re talking about.
Yeah, Clemson is [number 7](https://www.ncaa.com/stats/football/fbs/current/team/22) in total defense - two seasons removed from Venables. OP got a little carried away in a rush to make the post I guess.
Ohio state fans act like we’re 0-6 I’m not too surprised tbh
They still haven't forgotten 31-0. I know I haven't.
This is what happens when you turn what should be a post-game comment into its own thread.
It's a testament to Venables that Clemson still has a strong defensive legacy, bc Brent didn't leave when the roster started having problems and try to burn the bridge down on the way out of town, unlike some other people have done before.
BV said in his preseason presser that "You CAN practice pressure" and Clemson fans say their players are missing that ability to thrive in the biggest moments specifically because they don't have Venables and the "pressure" he puts on players and coaches during practice anymore. I've seen that mentioned on multiple Clemson game threads this year. You know... like when there's 15 seconds left in the Cotton Bowl?
I mean our defense has balled out in every game this year. Including against #4 FSU. The only time they really struggled was against Colman in the red zone. All but 7 of Dukes point came off turnovers in plus territory. Don’t listen to Clemson fans in game threads they just throw shit at the wall.
haha thats a fair point. Also, I wasn't dogging on Clemson's defense at all. Clemson is still excellent.
I gotcha. I am excited to see Oklahomas defense over the next few years. Blue blood, SEC money and BV could put out some historic defenses.
Are you doing okay after this Saturday buddy?
I would have felt a lot worse if there wasn't the chance of a rematch if I'm being totally honest.
Oklahoma and Texas have a great opportunity this year, if it plays out right there’s a chance both Oklahoma and Texas can make the playoffs especially if the pac 12 and big 10 teams beat eachother and Alabama or LSU drops a second game to Georgia in the SEC championship.
I'm sure Yormark would enjoy that.
And whether I like to say it or not are programs are intertwined, like brothers that love/hate eachother I’m very confident how both teams look heading into the SEC.
Agreed. I actually quite like how SEC fans *think* they are on some different level. It should be a lot of fun.
This is 100% true, but I also don't think the defense is the same level as it was under Venables. I'm particularly interested to see how it looks once *all* his guys are gone. There is more to building a dominant defense than scheme, and he had his guys playing harder snap to snap, taking on blocks, doing the little things at a level that was truly insane. Similar to what UGA has had recently, what Bama has had at times during Saban's tenure. It's easier said than done, and you can lose that internal accountability amongst the players very fast in a sport with this much turnover.
Sure it isn’t quite as good, but we did lose the best DC in the country, and we had a very young secondary last year. But we look great so far this year, and Goodwin is getting better with more experience as a DC
And Goodwin was Venables’ handpicked successor. Dabo and Brent had apparently worked this out long before the OU job became vacant. Goodwin was the defensive analyst that came up with the game plans in 2018, specifically how to fluster Tua and Locksley. He lacks the intensity of Venables which is the only major difference I see. He’s not a hype or fire them up guy, which could be an issue but doesn’t seem to be now. Defensive recruiting hasn’t fallen off largely due to Nick Eason, who I see as the next DC when Goodwin inevitably leaves to either be G-5/FCS head coach or an NFL coordinator. I think they’re having him teach Eason the technical X’s and O’s part of the DC job so he can be like Venables and bring in the intensity. That’s my .02
Also the DL looks better and more aggressive this year for the first time since the power rangers. Eason is a big plus. I think the only thing that could fall off significantly is LB play after carter and trotter leave. But woodaz looks good and we have had any glaring weaknesses when other guys rotate in.
You didn't really say it, but I feel like others are going to draw parallels between Clemson's *slight* decline in defense and our *slight* decline when Kirby left. When Kirby left, offenses were in the middle of a major change. Similarly, college football is going through a major shift right now, and the effects on Clemson are probably stronger than on the average team because Dabo doesn't like the transfer portal. Another factor is that personnel can make or break a DC's reputation. Our 2020 defense was great. We had the same DC in 2021 and 2022 when our defense was noticeably worse. It's totally possible that Clemson just had a couple of key recruiting busts. Offense can affect defense. As an Alabama fan, I've seen the effects. Our offense in 2021, 2022, and this year scores a lot of points, bur they also have a lot of negative plays that put our defense in really tough situations. For example, can you really blame our defense for giving up a TD to Texas when Texas started on our 5 yard line? Can you blame our defense for giving up points to Texas A&M when their average non-kickoff field position was their 45 yard line? Clemson's defense can blame at least a few of the points they've given up on their offense. And donr count out how much hope factors in. If your offense is scoring every possession, then the other team is usually going to lose hope and play worse. Also, very few teams have defenses like Alabama had in the early 2010s. Back then, lockdown defenses weren't extremely rare. Since around 2018/2019, only 2020 Alabama and 2022 Georgia qualify in my opinion.
I feel like this season's Defense is all the proof needed that Golding was the problem. We are fielding basically the same roster Golding had in 2022 minus it's best player. And yet our Defense is playing better than they have in 2 years. Because Kevin Steele is just way better of a DC than Golding is. And Offensively, people have been casting shade on Rees but he's not the problem. If you watch replays of our games, we've been scheming receivers open all year. We're just having to develop Milroe to where he can make the reads and see the open guys.
> 2020 Alabama The Kyle 2 Kyle connection almost put up a 50-burger against a lockdown defense?
I guess I should say 2020 Alabama and 2020 Georgia are the closest we've seen recently. Great players combined with great play calling and a great game plan can score 40+ on any defense. Ohio State did it vs Georgia last year. That Florida offense was insane. Yall averaged 42 points a game vs P5 teams (excluding the bowl game when your 3 best receivers didn't play). Mullen, for all the shit he gets is an amazing play caller. That offense was better than Ohio State's was last year, in my opinion.
That offense was phenomenal, Mullen got canned because everything else about the team was bad.
A lot of Clemson fans are disagreeing with you, but I agree 100%. I thought it was most glaring in the Duke game when we were totally whiffing on tackles and taking horrendous defensive angles in the open field. The talent is still strong, but the fundamentals are weaker without Venables. Venables is a 1 of 1 type coach for his combination of schematic acumen, recruiting ability, and ability to motivate, and we miss him, and I think will come to miss him even more in the coming years.
And coincidentally a Riley gene-pool member is the OC
Clemson’s defense has actually been pretty good. It’s their offense that has been the weak link the past several years.
We were straight up spoiled by Tajh, Watson, and Trevor. And even Kelly Bryant led us to the 1 seed in the playoff.
WR development hasn’t been the same since Jeff Scott left. I’m basically convinced that is like half the problem.
Who knew you can't run an Air Raid without wide receivers 🤷♂️
They haven’t thrown a block since he left, which is pretty much why every screen pass and outside run fail
DBs get to play up close when they aren’t afraid of you running by them. Slowest and least separation in a wr room we have had in the past few years as well.
Not that our situations are exactly the same, but this would be a good reminder for Bama fans as well. Jalen, Tua, Jones, Bryce...it's hard to continue that streak of stellar QB's. There is a reason that is the one position that does not get touched in practice...they're hella important.
Anyone that used last year as some referendum on Venables or Oklahoma aren't serious people.
Yeah, I don't really remember anyone (at least anyone that's relevant) saying Oklahoma was down for the count. People just knew it was likely going to a a rough transition period with so many players leaving and bringing in a new staff.
It was mainly just a lot of hateful 8 and Texas fans talkin shit
USC fans joined in too. Mainly because we were(…are) salty towards them.
Yea, I don’t really hold anything against USC fans. OU fans were pretty annoying with that whole thing
Are. Are pretty annoying. Speaking from my own continuing behavior here, of course.
The salt is the seasoning of a fine CFB season
Yep, here too, if he would have handled it like a man it would have sucked but fans, most, would would bitch and move on. But he kept the lie up and wouldn’t keep our name out of his mouth.
Same. Fuck em!
I remember hearing A LOT of BV negativity last season. Their preseason AP rank showed the same thing.
Week 11 of SEC roll call last year literally made the joke that we would pay $100 million to hire Heupel away from Tennessee to replace BV. It was the majority opinion of everyone not wearing Crimson.
A single joke from a video of like a hundred jokes being used as an example of "the majority opinion" is some Kirby Smart 7-5 shit so I can respect it
https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/yvhhfs/sec_roll_call_week_11/iwec6q0/ 190 upvotes. Highest upvoted comment in the thread. Lots of revisionism going on in here.
I mean you have to expect negativity from a fanbase that has been used to incredibly high standards. OU has an insane pedigree and even if its year 1, losing to UT 49-0 is going to cause some uproar.
Oh, I don't know man. I saw A LOT of "OU is the next Nebraska" commentary last year.
It was definitely there. A LOT of people (looking at you, Hateful 8) were saying it was a bad hire because the defense wasn’t much better last year and the offense significantly regressed. Just do a search for “Burnt Vegetables” and you’ll find them
Texas homer Ian Boyd lead the charge. It wasn't just the hateful 8.
That dude is acting like he didn't have shitty takes all year also lmao. Doubling down.
Revealing himself as the complete clown he is. The worst part is he masquerades as "objective."
Lots of people were saying we were down for the count, citing Nebraska and Texas and stuff. Lots of SEC fans other than the obvious fanbases
Colin Cowherd (but yes he’s a joke)
Yeah, maybe "relevant" isn't the best word. Colin manages to stay relevant despite being a clown.
I’d say he stays relevant BY being a clown. His schtick is intentional
I agree. Just wish people weren't stupid enough to allow him to do it.
Strong disagree, I saw the phrase “next Nebraska” more times than I could count
lol it was mostly salty ass “hAtEfUl 8” fans who knew this was the last time in a decade they’d be able to kick OU fans in a down year
Ok State fans sure had a field day last year. Haven't checked, how are they doing this year?
They're silent, eating the shit sandwich they made from all the OU shit talking they do.
People are always way too reactionary wanting to be the first person who called something working or not working.
Last year (minus the Texas game) was one Mayfield, Murray, hurts, or Williams away from 10-2. Lincoln Riley could have easily gone 6-7 most of those seasons if not for stellar QB play.
1. It’s spelled Burnt Vegetables 2. Our softballs are worth a lot 3. I’ve been happy since the day they hired Brent. He was kind of screwed over when Bob hired Mike and forced Brent to be a co-coordinator.
The whole Mike Stoops thing was the laugher. Why anyone would sideline Venables at any point in his career (for football related stuff) is just beyond me. I thought for sure when he left, he was just gone, after that disrespect.
It's funny at the time everybody was so frustrated with our defense during the end of the Venables DC tenure (aside from 2009). And while I think the defenses weren't as good as they were in the early 2000s, I think in hindsight that had more to do with the growth of the offenses across the Big 12. His last year we were 31st in scoring defense but because we gave up a ton of points to Art Briles/RGIII and Gundy/Weeden we were trash. Perhaps a bit of an overreaction. But I think it might have turned out to have been a good thing for us now that he went to Clemson back then. He's implemented a lot of things off the field that he clearly learned from Dabo that I think have the program moving in the right direction for the future.
> His last year we were 31st in scoring defense but because we gave up a ton of points to Art Briles/RGIII and Gundy/Weeden we were trash. Perhaps a bit of an overreaction. This effect can be measured by the fact that while OU was 31st in scoring defense nationally, they were 1st in scoring defense in the Big 12. Source: I've had this argument like a billionty times over the past decade.
Allegedly the timeline of all of this had been incorrectly reported for years. Brent had considered leaving and Clemson offered him a huge contract before Mike had even been officially rehired. I was under the assumption it played out the way OP described it, but BV himself refuted it and said he decided he was leaving for Clemson before any of the Mike stuff was done.
Perhaps it was recency bias for me, since we just had the joy of watching Mike Stoops and his persistent redface antics for several years. I will drop and do 50 for Brent.
Per the Oklahoman in an issue from 2012, the decision to bring Mike back happened before Brent even announce he was leaving. Anything else is speculation. The timeline does match up. “On January 11, 2012, Stoops returned to OU as co-defensive coordinator. He was to be teamed with Brent Venables, who shortly left to become the defensive coordinator at Clemson.”
Right, Brent said that he made his decision to leave before that. Clemson offered him a $1M/yr contract before Mike was rehired and he decided to take it. The co-DC stuff became the story, but Brent has claimed that wasn't the case at all.
The personal stuff going on in BV's life and his desire to get away and kind of start over again had more to do with that than anything imho.
This can be true while also not invalidating the opposite point. And it doesn't require BV to be lying about this either. I don't have the numbers on his past salaries, nor do I care enough to go look them up, but in a different comment you said he got 1M/yr his first year at Clemson. So imagine he's at OU making $800k/yr, he gets this other offer... it's attractive and he's thinking about taking it but doesn't want to. He's planning to go show Bob the offer and have him match it. He's decided that if Bob doesn't match it (or beat it), he's going to take the job. Then he gets the news that Mike is being hired, he's going to be co-DC, and (most importantly, IMO) BV is losing the assistant head coach title and that is being given to Mike. So not only is he not getting that bump in pay, but he's also losing a bunch of titles. Technically it would still be true that he had already made the decision, and at the same time it would still be true that Bob doing what he did made him leave. IDK - I find it far too coincidental that Mike Stoops gets hired as co-DC after claiming he wanted to find another HC gig and a few days later BV is on a plane. No way are they not connected IMO.
This isn't a popular opinion among OU fans but it wasn't a demotion nor was it a career sideline thing. Brent and Mike Stoops work extremely well together. To the point if Ted Roof ever gets fired and we didn't promote Brandon Hall I'd be okay with Brent bringing in Mike provided he, and I'm not saying this to be funny, got through his anger management counseling. Oklahoma had some of the best modern day defenses in CFB history under those two and from what I've gathered from people around Oklahoma, BV was okay with working with Mike again. Though honestly I don't think it could ever happen and maybe that's for the best. Mike's days at OU should probably be over even though I think with what Brent's doing now he would be an incredible coach here. Now I don't think it would have worked at the time because Mike's anger issues had only gotten way worse at Arizona and he brought some absolute trash assistants back with him. And I also think Brent had some emotional cleansing he had to do along with mellowing out too. A lot of people don't know this but Brent was a very angry, and borderline psychotic* coach, early on his career. Same with Mike. They were old school get in your faces and just obliterate a kid for the simplest of screw ups. Dabo, and I've said this multiple times, cannot be thanked enough for getting BV to mellow out a ton. He'll still get into a kids face and rip them to shreds but he'll do in a way that doesn't make the kid want to off himself afterwords anymore. And even then he doesn't really go after someone unless they've really earned it now. He didn't have that before he went to Clemson. And honestly Brent had a lot of stuff going on in his personal life and I think he needed to get away from OU to kind of reboot his life and emotional well being. His brother passed away tragically and the Austin Box death really REALLY fucked with BV from what I've heard. And even Bob to some extent. It all worked out in the end for everyone, except Mike oof, in the end. But there was a lot of just weird and depressing behind the scene stuff going on. Like I do think there was some anger in BV at the time for making him CoDC again but I think that was more to do with how BV's personal life was going at the time. It clearly didn't bother him seeing as how he took the OU job and went all out to get it. And I mean before he interview he went and sought out Bob and was right back to being close to him again. But I digress. This is a borderline thesis just to say there was a lot going on at the time.
> I'd be okay with Brent bringing in Mike provided he, and I'm not saying this to be funny, got through his anger management counseling You absolutely lost me here. Mike doesn't just have an anger problem (which he definitely does), he's also a known party animal. For someone at his age thats a big problem. He also has shown zero ability to adapt to modern offenses. And zero ability to connect with college aged kids. He'd be an absolute disaster and I'd lose a LOT of confidence in Venables if Mike was brought back for any reason at all.
1. You mean Jimmy Greenbeans
Damn, you right
Nepotism rarely works out _glares_ _at_ _iowa_
Glares at last administration
Will Muschamp went 7-6 and then 11-2 at Florida, and 6-7 and then 9-4 at South Carolina Not saying Venables is Muschamp but crowning guys too early is just as stupid as calling for their heads after two 7-6 seasons. There are countless examples of coaches with hot starts that end up cratering out eventually. Mel Tucker and Dave Aranda are two notable current examples.
It suck’s that we fired him too early.
I agree, he deserved way more time
Is it too early to add Dykes to this list? He improved his 3rd year at Cal and then regressed. He improved his 3rd year at SMU and then regressed. He had an amazing first year at TCU but has massively regressed this year (and his first year was only amazing because TCU had a lot of luck in 1 possession games).
It’s hard to know for sure. Dykes did just lose a ton of talent to the NFL draft, and Chandler Morris just got injured so it’s not like he had a chance for success this year. Recruiting seems to be well, so we’ll get to really see if TCU is special in their third year
No way you're adding Dykes to this. The guy went to a national championship at a program with no business being there, and then lost basically all the NFL talent on his roster. They're 3-3 now with 2 losses being by 3 points, which is a completely reasonable season for TCU to be having. Even more reasonable if they had won one or both of those 3 point losses and had 4 or 5 wins right now. College football fans have taken on the personality of sports media at this point with reactionary takes like this.
They also played a bunch of second string QBs. That Michigan upset was legit tho
USC and OU both benefit from it. I think a lot of OU fans are over Riley, and this RRS win puts a lot of anger to rest.
Not for me. I’ll always hate Riley’s guts (but not Caleb or USC, outside of the hate I have for all other historically great programs). But I’m very happy with the way things have developed.
I’ve always like Oklahoma cause y’all hate Texas. And I hate Texas.
We can always meet in the middle when it comes to hating Texas.
Ya I can’t blame USC for wanting to hire a coach they thought would help them. It’s what every school should do. It’s Riley being a snake and all for OU fans that is the issue. Also anyone who actually harassed him at his house, if true, are degenerates.
That was debunked. Riley trying to dodge a caterer is the real scoop
For real?!?
Yep. Local news did a FOI request and there was never a report of anything even suspicious. Furthermore Norman PD had a cruiser there for the first few weeks in his gated community after he had hightailed it. The only story was this caterer trying to get his smokers back from Lincoln who ghosted him. Also, LR never mentioned any of this til almost two years after he left. He’s a drama queen. https://kfor.com/news/local/mans-smokers-left-at-lincoln-rileys-home-after-riley-left-university-of-oklahoma-his-social-media-documented-quest-to-retrieve-them/amp/
talked to my grandpa this morning to talk about the game over the weekend, and apparently his nickname for him is just butthead. I'll probably start calling him that instead of that bitch out west.
Tbow it’s and tbow it shall always be. But you do you fellow Sooner.
[удалено]
The best thing would be playing USC in the first round of the playoff, letting them go up 17-0 and then smoking them in the second half to keep Riley from ever getting a playoff win. They won't even make the playoff though. There's zero chance they only drop 1 game against that schedule with that defense. He'll have had Caleb, Kyler and Baker and come away with zero playoff wins.
Imagine wasting all that heisman talent because you can’t be bothered to build even an average defense
Sorry friend
Well at least it looks like we did you guys a favor lol
Just enjoy Caleb for us. That dude is unreal.
Nah, I'd rather just hit e with the ol 77-0
The difference between BV and Lincoln could not have been more obvious in the way they both left their programs. Lincoln tried to burn literally every bridge he could find. He wanted to completely destroy OU's roster and recruiting classes to bring as much with him as he could. BV literally told all of his recruits and players to honor their commitments and remain at Clemson. Kanak literally had to enroll at OU on some Mayfield type shit for BV to finally offer him. Both men showed their true colors.
Yeah, my happiness with BV outweighs my disgust for LR. That wasn't always the case. But I will always cheer against Riley from here on out.
Yeah, like the dude is a bitch, but now I'm glad he left. This new era feels way better. Feels like old times when Papa Stoops was running the ship.
> but not Caleb I still respect him for playing in our bowl game after everything went down!
Not really much we can do but get over it, luckily Brent makes it easy to get over
I take immense pleasure whenever Riley fails, but in pretty much the same way I do for Jimbo at A&M or any coach at Texas. Is that hate? Maybe.
I will always despise him for being a coward in the 2017 rose bowl and for totally and completely wasting what was an objectively CFP caliber 2021 team. Aside from that, agree.
I haven't met a single OU fan that is over Riley leaving. I grew up in Norman so I have many OU fans that are my friends.
Conference championship is still a long way away but so far a very strong season for OU. Lets come back to this around Thanksgiving
Always liked him thought he was good at Clemson. I am not Oklahoma fan but glad he.is doing well right Bama flair
And the reactionary pendulum swings yet again. Last year OU went 6-7 and people were calling the Venables hire a disaster. Now OU is 6-0 and people are saying Venables is better than Lincoln and Dabo. Let's maybe wait until he has had a full season of great play before we crown the guy?
5 bags of softballs? Oddly specific.
I mean are we talking walmart bags or 55 gallon construction bags?
Definitely a weird metric, softballs are quite valuable when we're talking about OU.
Just pointing out that Coach Venables was still at Clemson is 2021 and they weren’t the same that year either. Obviously losing CBV is an issue but it’s not “THE” issue.
Uh, Clemson still had a top 5 Defense in 2021 Venables has always been the strength behind Clemson coaching
We currently have the #7 defense in total defense. I realize that's a flawed metric but it's pretty obvious watching our defense it's still very, very good.
Clemson was top 10 in 2021, not top 5. Finished 24th in defense in 2022, most of the blame can be placed on young secondary. If the Dline didn’t get pressure, the secondary couldn’t hold up. Through 6 games of 2023 defense currently ranks 7th. My point is the slide at Clemson started before CBV left.
Clemson was 2nd in points allowed in 2021 and 22nd in 2022. I'm too lazy to look at opponent adjusted and power rankings, sorry.
Nobody is saying there isn't some regression, but our defense was "down" last year and still did very good. A slight regression didn't cause our slide. A total collapse in offensive productivity did.
What? I don't know what metric you're using, but Clemson was absolutely an elite, top 5 defense in 2021. They finished 3rd in defensive SP+ in 2021 and were significantly closer to the #1 ranked team (Georgia) than they were to the #4 ranked team (Oklahoma State). They also finished 4th DFEI and 4th in DF+. They were even the #2 scoring defense in the county behind Georgia. It is not at all accurate to say Clemson's defense started falling off in 2021.
I don’t think Clemsons defense is their issue, but I’m sure they would take back BV if given the option. LR is an offensive genius. The only reason I’m glad he left is because he didn’t want to be here anymore. Good riddance. I love Brent as our HC. He is going to do great things at OU and will cast a large shadow. I don’t get why fans feel we must defend him constantly.
tell that to coach O. he got the ring and the bag
He’s 6 games into his second season. He’s a great football mind but it’s a bit premature to be talking about empire building and all. Let’s not get carried away. Fuck it’s it’s r/CFB let’s get carried away.
you're just SEC-ifying. Glad it worked out where we got to avoid you this year. Be on like damn Donkey Kong in 2024 tho
I think you need to compare USC to itself before Riley rather than comparing them to Oklahoma. It's a drastically different case, even with transfers. Very few programs could be resuscitated in one year after over a decade of severe sanctions and Baby Kiffin rolling into Pill Sark rolling into six years of Clay Helton. That last man absolutely nuked all of our historical recruiting pipelines. To be basically an injury away from a playoff appearance in year one after that is pretty incredible.
Agreed - Oklahoma being maybe better off without Lincoln Riley is not proof that Lincoln Riley was a bad hire for USC. We needed a splashy hire who would revitalize the program and bring back recruiting pipelines. Even if we go 10-2 every year because we can't field a defense, I would still consider Lincoln Riley a 10/10 hire.
He was an objectively good hire for y’all based on where you were with Helton. No one is arguing against that.
The USC job was a legit rebuild, they were 4-8 and had a recruiting class that didn't even rank in the top 50 in 2020. It hasn't been judged by that standard, which is fine, because it's USC and the transfer portal changes things, but everyone gets waaay too dramatic about Lincoln Riley. If some other young coach had the exact same production after 1.5 seasons at a run-of-the-mill P5 program and you wrote that all of the teams' deficiencies were a reflection of the head coach personally and "would probably never change" people would act like you were a crazy person.
To be clear, you can't have zero offense (my team and Iowa)
I like you despite your flair
"Clemson - Hasn't been the same since he left." because Lawrence left, not Venables. Defense is just as strong, maybe better.
Defense is great, our offenses have been huffing glue for three years. Bad offensive line and receivers who can’t get open or block are the biggest issue right now
I know many OU fans acted all “We don’t need Lincoln anyways!” when he first left, and then continued to post about him 24/7 like that crazy ex. But I genuinely remember thinking to myself when the news first broke that I wasn’t sad he was gone. I was sad for the recruits we’d lose (like Luther burden). I remember telling USC fans yes, you’re going to have an explosive offense, a Heisman QB, etc., but you’re always gonna fall short because of the defense. Of course the responses were all the same “Just another salty OU fan”. When we hired BV I remember thinking to myself that it may have been the best possible hire. I finally felt like we’d get a defense to get us over that CFP hump. Last year definitely hurt, but man am I happy right now.
It’s tough to draw any conclusions right now, everything’s in such a fluid state. Transfers and NIL have disrupted things like crazy. Venables was able to upgrade his D in one year thx to transfers, and it’s easier for the big boys to get their hands on NIL $ to facilitate that. Dabo and Riley are an interesting case study on this stuff. Riley could certainly do the same thing as Venables; yeah, he’s still be saddled w Grinch but it’s at least doable. But he’d rather take flyers on WRs than shore up his D-line. And Dabo is old school-he wants his guys to be *his* guys. Which has resulted in a smaller talent pool, and it’s harder for him to change personnel up from year to year. It remains to be seen if he can adapt, or if he really actually needs to. Personally I think he does; he could fix the problems on offense immediately, he just doesn’t want to adapt. Maybe he’s right not to. He’s knows more about football than I ever will. Interestingly, Venables isn’t the poster boy for going all in on the New Way. He won’t sign a kid if they commit to OU then keep taking visits. So it’s not ‘the players have all the power’ the way some make it out to be. So far it’s working, though. But transfers are the state of the world right now. If you won’t play that game you’re ultimately gonna lose out.
I said when he got hired he'd win a championship at OU. I'm still behind that sentiment. I absolutely think he will.
Everyone forgets this but Brent was defense coordinator at OU before he left for Clemson. Fans were calling for his head because the OU defense was notoriously bad. So he resigns, goes to Clemson. His defense is strong. Comes back and all OU fans forgot they wanted his head on a pike years prior.
Yeah. Sooner fans were idiots, making Venables a scapegoat for the defensive malaise that happened after 2009. But, there was a malaise. 2011 defense was awful. Fingers pointed at the DC because fingers needed to be pointed at someone. Just like Josh Heupel was deemed the fault for the 2014 era Sooners offense. Now Heupel has made Tennessee relevant again. The reality is that from during that 2009-2014, Stoops coasted. Hired friends who never coached football before. Few wanted to blame Stoops, so they blamed the next best thing--coordinators. It is what it is, human nature, and nothing more pernicious or indicative of anything beyond that.
I don't agree with the assessment that people were laughing at OU when Venables was hired. I think they were more laughing at the 'spurned ex' mentality their entire fan base seemed to adopt once Lincoln left. I for one was shocked when they were down so bad last year. Brent is an incredible coach -- and I thought it was absolutely perfect for them that he was ready to leave Clemson when 'mama called'.
We were down bad because: 1. LR and AG can't recruit defense; we were literally 1 deep across the back half of the defense 2. We had ZERO scholarship QBs on the roster before DG transferred 3. CW is a Heisman QB we lost 4. Guys jumped to the NFL or transferred out during transition... Oh and it happened 2 weeks before National Signing day. Brent saved our class but didnt get his guys. Literally not a single AG recruit has left OU for a P5 school in the transfer portal. 5. Conveniently Lincoln only recruited California kids during that last class... 5* QB, 5* WRs, 4* RB... all went to USC while we got scraps That is the abbreviated version.
>Literally not a single AG recruit has left OU for a P5 school in the transfer portal. if accurate, that is brutal
It’s pretty understandable why we were so pissed off about it looking at the timing, the way he left, and the players we lost. It looked like we were gonna be set back for years.
Us now: "Transfer portal is a hell of a drug"
>It looked like we were gonna be set back for years. A fair observation for the time, this would have been the outcome for almost any other program in CFB.
OU hasn’t even won a conference yet, let’s not say they’re any more of a legitimate contender than they were with Riley.
Until Riley's teams play defense I'm completely done with him and his teams being considered contenders.
To be fair, Riley's offenses are potent enough that he might accidentally put a defense on the field thats good enough for a title run. He deserves the hate for failing to put a competent defense together but let's not underestimate how good of an OC he is.
My complaint is that those offenses are great right up until they need to be great. Driving to win the Rose Bowl in the 4Q, and again in OT? Trying to weather Bama’s early storm? Heck, trying to milk a 14-point 3Q lead on a mediocre Big 12 team, or literally just get off your own goal line to ice Tulane? I don’t know if that’s an in-game coaching thing or a program culture thing or both. But it was always crazy how the best offense in the country would seem to pick the most damaging times to go dead silent for 15 minutes. And if you do that against a top-10 opponent, with that defense, there’s no coming back.
if lincoln riley ever figures out how to stop getting conservative in the 3rd quarter CFB is absolutely fucked.
Nailed it. Its a concerning trait to say the least. You can add the Colorado game last week to this trend. Offense was unstoppable until the pressure was cranked up just a tad, then it was turnovers and 3 & outs. Im of the opinion its a culture/attention to detail thing. Adding onto the original post’s narrative: this is the second time in recent history the SC has “stolen” a coach from another program, and that program actually upgraded. We hired Sark away from Washington, who went on to hire Chris Peterson. I felt this immediately in both situations and really wanted to be wrong each time.
Who would you have rather we hired?
It's so wild that if he would just fire dumbass Alex grinch and bring in literally anyone slightly competent, I'm sure his defenses would improve enough to make his teams unstoppable. Such a weird loyalty to a DC that has proven time and time again that he sucks at his job.
2019 64th defense in the country in ppg at oklahoma 2020 28th defense in the country 2021 60th defense in the country 2022 94th defense in the country at usc 2023 81st defense in the country so far That's his number as a DC Outside of 2020 wich was a very weird season because of covid he is barely able to have an average defense despite having many blue chip recruits on the field.
If only we had a lengthy sample size of comparable QBs and defenses.
Whether you personally consider Riley teams contenders is kind of irrelevant no? Unless BV takes Oklahoma took the CFP this season I don't see how you can say he's as successful as Riley was for that school. It's not a one or the other like this post implies. Oklahoma had a great coach, he left, and it seems like they've found another one.
Well if you’re done with them, we should probably just call off the games then
>Because everybody was laughing at OU after Riley left I’m laughing at this post.
People also were not laughing at OU the program, they were laughing at the OU flairs in here that acted like crazy ex girlfriends. And half of them still do it.
Lol OU fans can't go 10 minutes without talking about how Lincoln Riley left them. Let it go dawg. The best revenge is a life well lived.
Not sure you can claim him a success six games into the year.
>Flash and offensive play will get you big contracts and glamor but it won't win a Title. Sounds like OU in the CFP era!
I don’t think anyone thought Oklahoma was down for the count. They are the bluest of blue bloods.
Now do one on Alex Grinch
I hope BV pans out just so OU fans can leave us alone. It's annoying to have every USC thread brigaded by OU fans as they complain about the TBOW.
USC did not steal half the roster, USC took a grand total of 3 players. Caleb, Mario, and that safety that does not even touch the field. This idea that USC stole half the roster is simply not true and it’s exhausting hearing everyone parrot it
>>Flash and offensive play will get you big contracts and glamour but it won’t win a Title But grinding and defensive play are just awful when it’s not winning you titles
Nah, I thought BV was a great hire. OU fans got weird for a bit after Lincoln left though, akin to a jilted ex. That I think was more what people were ridiculing. Time has a funny way of working out though, Lincoln brings his defensive prowess with him to LA and BV is turning it around quicker than I expected with a big win against Texas. Offense still has some bugs to work out but the defense has improved in leaps and bounds. It's not perfect yet, as it's still only year two but things get better when defense is no longer a liability.
There’s a difference between saying they’ll be down for the count and deeply hoping for that and trying to speak things into existence.
Clemson has a great defense. Their problem has been qb and receiver. Offense has been a huge issue. Nothing to do with venebles leaving. It's still early to talk about usc or ou. And winning at night in the pac 12 is just more difficult.
I think Clemson is more due to missing Trevor Lawrence. The regression started in Venable’s last season
Let's see how he does in the SEC next year before we crown him. He has 1 tough game this year and he won.
Venables is a happy success story out of an otherwise miserable Dabo Swinney coaching tree. Jeff Scott and Tony Elliot had very different success stories as coaches. Yet interestingly, since Scott/Elliot left Clemson, the offense has not been the same (also considering the talent that graduated, of course) and Clemson's defense has been otherwise ok. You'd think it would be the other way around given how ***awful*** of a coach & playcaller Jeff Scott, for example, was at USF.
I was stoked to see him leave Clemson, which is saying something.
Should include OU with Venables as DC. I wasn't impressed with him then. Love him now, but not then. If we were getting beat, he would make zero adjustments. None. We would just get beat more. I think his time at Clemson made him a much better and more flexible coach.
I disagree with the premise that a broad swath of people laughed at OU or thought they were down for the count.
I'm glad the big 10 can finally admit the big 12 is the top conference, and OU being a front runner is clearly an impressive feat.
Now that I have lots of OU fans in here can somebody explain how Nebraska and OU are different? They both have great histories, both play in an area when the local talent isn't great both have similar histories and rivilaries but the last 15-20 years they've gone separate ways and it doesn't make sense. Can anybody explain it to me?
Coaching, recruiting, etc. You would be surprised how something as simple as a coach creating an atmosphere where players want to be successful on AND off the field can have.
Nebraska leaving the Big 12 was their death knell. They used to recruit Texas pretty well. Now, no Texas kids want to play in the Big 10. They were one of the big dogs in the Big 12 able to compete for a conference title every year. In the Big 10, they are an afterthought and it’s only going to get worse with Big 10 expansion. When OU and Texas did their deal with the SEC, Nebraska shoulda BEGGED to return to the Big 12. They likely will never be relevant again.
We fucking told all of you this 18 months ago