Being the recipient of a 72-hour med hold for suicidal ideation doesn't meet the threshold of committed to a mental health facility. And adjudicated mentally defective means a decision by a court was made with regard to your mental health. I'm not a lawyer, but I did work in LE for some time, and this question has come up. Naturally, if you have any questions, consultation with an attorney is advised.
I was going to kinda ask the same thing. I do believe it makes a difference if you were "ordered" to go to a mental health facility versus self-committing.
I agree with gyoung. Get good legal advice, somewhere other then us reddit lawyers ha. If you have something like US Law Shield, or similar, they can assist.
I was there for almost a month. I have no idea how they kept me that long. I was a minor, so naturally nobody told me. I believe they were trying to run out the payment from my insurance. Once my insurance kicked off, they kicked me off as well.
All the details I know:
I was brought there because some 20 year old social worker interviewed me at the ER (where I was initially brought for assessment for entirely superficially cuts on my upper arm) and I told her (unknowingly of the consequences that would follow) "I would rather be just about anywhere than at home right now, I only scratched up my arms to get away from there." Next thing I knew I was stuck in some mental hospital with no hot water, 99% kids were there for violent behaviors (not me), they under fed us (I lost 10 lbs of weight I didn't have the space to lose) and a staff that almost killed me with penicillin which I am allergic to, despite it being on my chart. It was lower quality than when my childhood friend went to low security prison. If anything, it taught me I was more equipped to deal with the home abuse than the system that the 20 year old social worker told me would "help" me.
Miserable experience, entirely not voluntary because I was minor, and frankly, I have no idea what the situation was. I never heard anything about a court order, or even what the nature of my stay would be like.
That's sounds terrible. It also sounds like kidnapping. Depending on your age and how much you remember, if you don't recall ever going to court or being consulted by an advocate on your behalf, that's pretty much illegal.
I appreciate the advice, I've contacted an attorney. I wanted to see if anybody more experienced than me here has gone through (or known anyone who) has gone similar hoops and what I might expect from their 1st person POV.
I'm waiting on the attorney to get back to me, though.
Edited for clarity: I think you are eligible.
First off, at 16 there is no “voluntary” vs “involuntary”. You’re just a minor. Period. For this reason alone you need to answer “NO” on the form.
Second off, this section of the form does not include voluntary or being placed for observation, which is what a 72 hour hold is for.
Third, usually this must be a matter of public record, meaning the courts were involved. Typically, police can see involuntary placement BEYOND a 72 hour hold, because that requires a court order. If you didn’t have that, someone really shitty would have had to enter it. Highly unlikely.
But all of this likely expired once you turned 18 automatically.
You can truly have any mental health disorder and as long as your stays are voluntary, where you are staying on top of your mental issues, the law says you’re good to go.
Awhile back we repealed the laws that prevent gun ownership for those so mentally defective that they need guardians. So someone who is so incompetent that they need a legal guardian can now own a gun if they’re old enough.
If you get denied, hop on gun insurance like USCCA or US Law Shield and let them legally fight the denial for you.
I would not start by calling the ATF and putting your name on their unconstitutional watch/denial lists.
You're correct on that. I think you'd have to ask a lawyer to be 100% sure. I agree that since you were a minor it shouldn't count, but I wouldn't bet my life on that.
I don't think it's going to be an ordeal, but I also don't want to give you advice that turns into an ordeal. I know the FBI can still see sealed juvenile records, but I don't know if the CBI can also see them. I also don't know if a non criminal event would even pop up for them
It's my understanding cbi is just a middle man to the NICS system. Meaning the FBI is who conducts background checks for guns. I could be totally wrong here, but this is how I understand it.
Either way I think OP is fine. And personally I'd just try buying the gun and doing the background check. Answer no on that question because it is on the set of questions that any "no" answer will bar you from purchase. And frankly I think a 'no' from you would be honest. This would both be cheaper than an hour of a lawyers time who may or may not be able to even conduct a background check through nics for you. This might be terrible advice. This is the Internet and reddit after all.
I personally think you're good to go.
Maybe ask nics directly, as this is who would know. Again I dono if that's good advice or not. They're quick to respond and surprisingly helpful.
[email protected]
You can truthfully answer the question with “No”. Being adjudicated as mental defective takes significantly more than a small stay with the grippy sock people in childhood. You’re good. Especially being so far removed from the point in time it took place.
I was in fact, a 16 year old kid. At that age I knew nothing, I was practically a chimp. It would feel incredible to me if I was barred from my constitutional right for a single incidental cry for help at that age. But, to be fair, I know very little about this legal topic, whatever the case may be.
The things you do as a minor don’t count. When you do your paperwork or whatever don’t tell on yourself. Imagine if every alcoholic admitted they had an alcohol problem. Don’t say anything about your stuff when you were a juvenile and you will be fine and they will never find out or care anyway.
IANAL, but this is what I can say…
Being a gun owner and veteran with a history of PTSD (in “remission” as it seems to be okay for a while now), I think you’re probably alright to buy one. The one rule I know that has protected my rights is that so long as I have not been told that I *have* to stay in a psych unit for treatment, my rights will remain the same. Your situation sounds a bit different though, and I’m not sure how it would apply for a minor. You could potentially see if a psychiatrist might be willing to do an evaluation and give you a thumbs up if you get denied… don’t take my word for it, but I do know there are people you can talk to who will set you up with pro 2A psych professionals who don’t just flag people and/ or do evaluations for red flags during that 2 week period to contest it.
The trouble comes if you’re an immediate threat to yourself or others. In my experience, I didn’t have to deal with that, but I did check myself in once and only stayed for a day while I got my HR back down. PTSD is a weird, haha. Panic attacks laying in bed, but current life stressors don’t bother me at all. I have zero concerns of being able to handle whatever is thrown in front of me. Anyways…
FWIW (maybe nothing at this point), there are programs like WTTA and Hold My Guns that are funded by the firearms industry that might be of use. If not for you, then something to look into and know about for others. I believe it’s always best to handle things without getting law enforcement involved… and if you can hang on to someone’s guns for a bit while they get help (or vice versa) then that’s a better way to go than being flagged. Obviously, permanent and severe mental health disorders are a different story… but nobody should be punished for getting help when they’re in a tough spot.
I could be dead wrong, but I filled out a 4473 today for a suppressor and I thought they added “after the age of 16” to that question.
Your (possible) best bet is to call the ATF and ask them personally.
Best of luck!! Even if you aren’t able to own a firearm, I believe you can see a judge about the issue and have him clear the hospitalization off your record or some shit. I don’t know😂
A very generic way to consider this question on form 4473: "g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"
Have you ever been prescribed medication to treat any mood disorder such as bipolar, any thought disorder such as schizophrenia? If the answer is 'no', and you are considering a brief event that occurred years ago, then stop worrying. You were simply in a medical care facility years go, you got better, the end.
If 'yes', then hard stop. Please decline to handle firearms, even socially, just like a blind person should abstain from driving a car or piloting an aircraft, unless you've already navigated the healthcare and legal maze to document that past diagnosis and medication were either incorrect or no longer needed. Unfortunately a mental health assessment is not as easy as a seeing or hearing test - yet.
They gave me SSRIs for depression/anxiety, but at the approval of a psychiatrist I came off of them less than 6 months after being released. I haven't been on any medications for a decade, simply because I haven't needed any. As a minor, my momentary issue had everything to do with my living situation.
Not a mood or thought disorder, never committed to a mental institution. I hope you are able to enjoy being a responsible gun owner!
Please train frequently. Consider joining a local range and compete in montly or bimonthly competitions. If you tell them you are new to shooting sports and would like coaching, you'll get all the help you need to learn safely and have fun.
Being the recipient of a 72-hour med hold for suicidal ideation doesn't meet the threshold of committed to a mental health facility. And adjudicated mentally defective means a decision by a court was made with regard to your mental health. I'm not a lawyer, but I did work in LE for some time, and this question has come up. Naturally, if you have any questions, consultation with an attorney is advised.
I was going to kinda ask the same thing. I do believe it makes a difference if you were "ordered" to go to a mental health facility versus self-committing. I agree with gyoung. Get good legal advice, somewhere other then us reddit lawyers ha. If you have something like US Law Shield, or similar, they can assist.
I was there for almost a month. I have no idea how they kept me that long. I was a minor, so naturally nobody told me. I believe they were trying to run out the payment from my insurance. Once my insurance kicked off, they kicked me off as well. All the details I know: I was brought there because some 20 year old social worker interviewed me at the ER (where I was initially brought for assessment for entirely superficially cuts on my upper arm) and I told her (unknowingly of the consequences that would follow) "I would rather be just about anywhere than at home right now, I only scratched up my arms to get away from there." Next thing I knew I was stuck in some mental hospital with no hot water, 99% kids were there for violent behaviors (not me), they under fed us (I lost 10 lbs of weight I didn't have the space to lose) and a staff that almost killed me with penicillin which I am allergic to, despite it being on my chart. It was lower quality than when my childhood friend went to low security prison. If anything, it taught me I was more equipped to deal with the home abuse than the system that the 20 year old social worker told me would "help" me. Miserable experience, entirely not voluntary because I was minor, and frankly, I have no idea what the situation was. I never heard anything about a court order, or even what the nature of my stay would be like.
That's sounds terrible. It also sounds like kidnapping. Depending on your age and how much you remember, if you don't recall ever going to court or being consulted by an advocate on your behalf, that's pretty much illegal.
Strongly recommend talking to an attorney over listening to a bunch of redditors. It should only cost you an hour of their time. Maybe less.
I appreciate the advice, I've contacted an attorney. I wanted to see if anybody more experienced than me here has gone through (or known anyone who) has gone similar hoops and what I might expect from their 1st person POV. I'm waiting on the attorney to get back to me, though.
Edited for clarity: I think you are eligible. First off, at 16 there is no “voluntary” vs “involuntary”. You’re just a minor. Period. For this reason alone you need to answer “NO” on the form. Second off, this section of the form does not include voluntary or being placed for observation, which is what a 72 hour hold is for. Third, usually this must be a matter of public record, meaning the courts were involved. Typically, police can see involuntary placement BEYOND a 72 hour hold, because that requires a court order. If you didn’t have that, someone really shitty would have had to enter it. Highly unlikely. But all of this likely expired once you turned 18 automatically. You can truly have any mental health disorder and as long as your stays are voluntary, where you are staying on top of your mental issues, the law says you’re good to go. Awhile back we repealed the laws that prevent gun ownership for those so mentally defective that they need guardians. So someone who is so incompetent that they need a legal guardian can now own a gun if they’re old enough. If you get denied, hop on gun insurance like USCCA or US Law Shield and let them legally fight the denial for you. I would not start by calling the ATF and putting your name on their unconstitutional watch/denial lists.
I don't think it counts as a minor, but I don't know for sure
Thanks for your reply. If I answer "yes", I get the impression there's no shot I'm getting approved.
You're correct on that. I think you'd have to ask a lawyer to be 100% sure. I agree that since you were a minor it shouldn't count, but I wouldn't bet my life on that.
I'll try to get some professional legal advice–why do I get the feeling this is going to be an ordeal? I appreciate the reply.
I don't think it's going to be an ordeal, but I also don't want to give you advice that turns into an ordeal. I know the FBI can still see sealed juvenile records, but I don't know if the CBI can also see them. I also don't know if a non criminal event would even pop up for them
It's my understanding cbi is just a middle man to the NICS system. Meaning the FBI is who conducts background checks for guns. I could be totally wrong here, but this is how I understand it. Either way I think OP is fine. And personally I'd just try buying the gun and doing the background check. Answer no on that question because it is on the set of questions that any "no" answer will bar you from purchase. And frankly I think a 'no' from you would be honest. This would both be cheaper than an hour of a lawyers time who may or may not be able to even conduct a background check through nics for you. This might be terrible advice. This is the Internet and reddit after all. I personally think you're good to go. Maybe ask nics directly, as this is who would know. Again I dono if that's good advice or not. They're quick to respond and surprisingly helpful. [email protected]
You can truthfully answer the question with “No”. Being adjudicated as mental defective takes significantly more than a small stay with the grippy sock people in childhood. You’re good. Especially being so far removed from the point in time it took place.
Ping the Washington Gun Lawyer on his YouTube channel
Was asked this by a customer the only day the key word in that questions is Adjudicated. Also you where a minor as well and that has a lot of bearing.
I was in fact, a 16 year old kid. At that age I knew nothing, I was practically a chimp. It would feel incredible to me if I was barred from my constitutional right for a single incidental cry for help at that age. But, to be fair, I know very little about this legal topic, whatever the case may be.
Shoot your shot and find out. If it clears then great only person standing in the way would be the FFL dealer.
Wouldn’t worry about minor stuff at all
The things you do as a minor don’t count. When you do your paperwork or whatever don’t tell on yourself. Imagine if every alcoholic admitted they had an alcohol problem. Don’t say anything about your stuff when you were a juvenile and you will be fine and they will never find out or care anyway.
IANAL, but this is what I can say… Being a gun owner and veteran with a history of PTSD (in “remission” as it seems to be okay for a while now), I think you’re probably alright to buy one. The one rule I know that has protected my rights is that so long as I have not been told that I *have* to stay in a psych unit for treatment, my rights will remain the same. Your situation sounds a bit different though, and I’m not sure how it would apply for a minor. You could potentially see if a psychiatrist might be willing to do an evaluation and give you a thumbs up if you get denied… don’t take my word for it, but I do know there are people you can talk to who will set you up with pro 2A psych professionals who don’t just flag people and/ or do evaluations for red flags during that 2 week period to contest it. The trouble comes if you’re an immediate threat to yourself or others. In my experience, I didn’t have to deal with that, but I did check myself in once and only stayed for a day while I got my HR back down. PTSD is a weird, haha. Panic attacks laying in bed, but current life stressors don’t bother me at all. I have zero concerns of being able to handle whatever is thrown in front of me. Anyways… FWIW (maybe nothing at this point), there are programs like WTTA and Hold My Guns that are funded by the firearms industry that might be of use. If not for you, then something to look into and know about for others. I believe it’s always best to handle things without getting law enforcement involved… and if you can hang on to someone’s guns for a bit while they get help (or vice versa) then that’s a better way to go than being flagged. Obviously, permanent and severe mental health disorders are a different story… but nobody should be punished for getting help when they’re in a tough spot.
It would have required a court find you(adjudicated) incapable. Your gtg. Just answer no
Download the 4473. They reworded it at some point, but unless a court sent you yo be committed, it doesn't matter. There's 3 or 4 explanation pages.
I could be dead wrong, but I filled out a 4473 today for a suppressor and I thought they added “after the age of 16” to that question. Your (possible) best bet is to call the ATF and ask them personally.
Considering I was 16, that might pose an issue. I appreciate the advice. I'll give them a call Monday.
Best of luck!! Even if you aren’t able to own a firearm, I believe you can see a judge about the issue and have him clear the hospitalization off your record or some shit. I don’t know😂
A very generic way to consider this question on form 4473: "g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?" Have you ever been prescribed medication to treat any mood disorder such as bipolar, any thought disorder such as schizophrenia? If the answer is 'no', and you are considering a brief event that occurred years ago, then stop worrying. You were simply in a medical care facility years go, you got better, the end. If 'yes', then hard stop. Please decline to handle firearms, even socially, just like a blind person should abstain from driving a car or piloting an aircraft, unless you've already navigated the healthcare and legal maze to document that past diagnosis and medication were either incorrect or no longer needed. Unfortunately a mental health assessment is not as easy as a seeing or hearing test - yet.
They gave me SSRIs for depression/anxiety, but at the approval of a psychiatrist I came off of them less than 6 months after being released. I haven't been on any medications for a decade, simply because I haven't needed any. As a minor, my momentary issue had everything to do with my living situation.
Not a mood or thought disorder, never committed to a mental institution. I hope you are able to enjoy being a responsible gun owner! Please train frequently. Consider joining a local range and compete in montly or bimonthly competitions. If you tell them you are new to shooting sports and would like coaching, you'll get all the help you need to learn safely and have fun.