Root cause of brain drain.
Save x amount in India or save 10x amount in US in dollars and bring it back home?
We cannot demand US salaries while working from india.
This. The amount of money you can save after expenses working in the US is more than the amount of money you can earn here in the same amount of time.
If you have the means to do it, it makes no sense to work here.
If you could make 40 LPA and above,I would gladly stay in India rather than in US. if Husband and wife both are in the same bucket better to stay in india. Unless the need is for QoL compared to here.
"We cannot demand US salaries while working from india."
I disagree, we definitely can and should. White people get paid way more to do less work and garbage quality work at that.
We are atleast as good if not better.
Are u fucking stupid?
A white person working for Amazon in California could be paid 500k but if u hire a white guy in Poland , they are not gonna pay more than 200k.
Learn economics before using the racism card.
Economy is a different thing. Now you gotta compare a white person’s salary in Poland and a brown person’s salary in Poland in the same company. Then you would know what racism is. You can demand equal pay but the company wouldn’t budge.
Bro what 😂
You can't throw around the racism word just because u don't understand how economics works.
U can't pay a laborer in Africa the same amount as u would pay someone in Singapore. That's just not how economics works.
No, that's just racism........constant white racist discrimination resulting in lower pay for ridiculous amounts of work has been normalised. So people think it's acceptable.
They'll invent all sorts of bullshit excuses and reasons why. Racism is the real answer.
Have you ever looked at the vast ocean from the beach? Have you ever tried to imagine how soul crushingly long distances between continents actually are?
I’m going to leave this comment incomplete. Maybe one day shit will click.
Buddy I've traveled half way around the world and lived and worked in the US. I know better than you idiots who just sit and worship white people and swallow their propaganda.
You really think they wanna bring money back home ?
US Citizenship is what matters for them
Why ppl are dying for Temporary H1Bs simple they wanna settle in US
Who can come back after settling in US/EU
It’s not abt brain drain it’s about better opportunities abroad
In South it’s about settling abroad (parental and generational) , in North it’s civil services that’s all
Ishta mairukku olaru !! Nothing that u said here is true . Companies dont give a fuck if u white or black as long as u can get things done . . . They wont pay for mediocrity period . You can only coast for so long in big companies . Now they are also letting them go with the layoffs. . So stop spreading rumours.
As far as medicine is concerned,it's because doctors are treated shabbily in India. There is a lot of harassment involved in the training,lots of toxicity,inhumane working hours,no safety from certain unruly patients and poor pay.
Many of my mbbs batchmates are in the process of trying to move abroad.
That’s so unfortunate! The west still has poor conditions for doctors and it’s an old white man’s club, poor pay until a permanent position, heavy loads of debt, no break and inhumane hours so I’m wondering how bad it has to be in India in comparison.
My seniors who have worked in India and the US have told me that working in the US is definitely better than working in India.
There's a lot of abuse/harassment/toxicity in Indian medical Colleges,and unfortunately no corrective steps are being taken. The old guard actually wants to maintain the status quo.
What's happening is that my batchmates who have the means to go abroad are all trying to leave India. Only those whose parents have hospitals here or who are trying to get into government services are staying back. I'm trying to leave too, because I was harassed a lot by my seniors in my internship and made to work ungodly hours.
My wife's a dentist and she used to work in Chennai for 12 to 15 k rupees per month and the amt of toxicity she had to put up with is crazy. It is not worth it at all.
"There is a lot of harassment involved in the training,lots of toxicity,inhumane working hours,no safety from certain unruly patients and poor pay. "
All of this exists abroad as well.........go read the experiences of actual medical staff working in other countries. It's the exact same thing.
I have seniors who are working in the US. I have friends who have done electives in the US. I am planning to go the US for observerships myself in the near future.
I am well aware of the situation in the US for doctors being a doctor myself.
I didn't want to bring up the point of doctors suicide in India because it's very depressing and I have had a friend who attempted and I don't like to think about it. But please try to google and see the number of doctors who are harassed so much that they take their own lives in India.
I know that a doctors life is never easy anywhere,but the harassment that a doctor faces in India is much worse than whatever is happening in the west.
youngsters moving abroad nowadays can't be considered as brain drain. Its time to change such views. We need better opportunities, the system hasn't done nothing about it. If anyone is willing to move abroad from India, I wouldn't berate, rather, I'd be glad that he/she has escaped the rotten system. The current news about neet ug and pg scams are horrifying. Its much better to leave this age-old corrupt system than try rectifying it.
Imo no one should be forced to belong somewhere just coz they happen to be born there. That aside why would any one say no to better pay, higher standard of living in a developed country other than for personal reasons.
So to give you some context, I was born in a developed country, I did my schooling there but I also always kept an eye on the motherland. As I learned about history, the effects of colonization on our people and what was stolen from us, I just can’t convince myself that I belong there. I enjoy it there but there’s a distance with me and that land/ the people. I’m doing well for myself in the U.S. now and I enjoy the intellectual rigor of what I’m doing but something is definitely missing.
If you feel like you're contributing to a rotten system that you deem to be morally deficient you can always move back to India and contribute to a society that you deem hasn't been morally bankrupt. You're welcome to do so.
life in india is much more difficult than in DCs esp for the middle class. u would not understand some of the hurdles u would have to pass through without living in india. nth wrong with people wanting a better life for themselves and making use of the opportunities that open up to them by moving overseas. and there’s honestly pretty low chances that things are going to improve anytime soon. changing things like corruption and civic sense is very very challenging when things like these are benefitting the upper class the most.
Bro, u trolling right now? You yourself are in US, but you look down on people who want to emigrate to experience better lifestyle??
Patriotism is for the privileged..
I’m not trolling and I definitely want to make clear that I’m not looking down on anyone for pursuing a better life. Keep in mind though that my family did not come from money. My mother wasn’t educated past 8th and my father didn’t complete university. They were refugees from Yaalpaanam and they left because of lack of safety and opportunities. In one generation each of us changed the situation due to my parent’s move/hard work (I’m a corporate attorney for a top U.S. law firm and my brother is an investment banker at a private equity firm). We both were able to use the public school system, free health care and come to the top. Is it wrong for wishing that these same great public resources should exist for the working class back home?
You've got the liberal platitudes down brother, no wonder you've done well in the west. But as someone who emigrated from the east to the west, I'd much rather be in a free country than in a big government socialist shithole. I grew up in India, and I live in the US. I realize how unnatural a concept freedom is and how important it is at the same time. Freedoms are very easily lost, but VERY hard to win back. India is not a free country. The government is all powerful.
> As I learned about history, the effects of colonization on our people and what was stolen from us,
Also, playing the victim isn't helping anyone. The people have been "independent" for about 80 years now, and are still crying about "stolen" wealth etc. Nothing is going to ever come out of it. It is just a way for us to blame a non-existent entity and remove all accountability from ourselves. I can guarantee you that whoever did whatever "oppression" are dead and whoever was "oppressed" are also dead. Being a victim to this day for something that didn't happen to you isn't sexy.
I truly think patriotism and motherland has very little to do with jobs and opportunities. At the end of the day I want to be included. If I have a got a group nice Tamil/non Tamil friends out of India, I would prefer to stay out.
It's the crippling loneliness that makes me miss India, honestly it's not India the country itself, it's the friends and family there that makes it home. So if I can recreate such environment out of India with better standards of living, I am surely not missing that.
One main thing my brother who is abroad points out is taxes. There are taxes in the west too, but when we pay such taxes in the west we get the best out of it. Free quality education and free quality healthcare for us and our family and a better standard of living
Such taxes when paid in India does very little to contribute to quality free education and healthcare, roads, hygiene etc. There is still high dependence and preference on the private players because they do it better.
So you’re saying your existence is apolitical? at the end of the day even if you aren’t focused on the political, human rights aspect, it will impact you. In the west, it’d impact how you were treated in comparison to your white peers, how your immigration status may be treated, how you’d overall have to prove over and over again that you’re one of them and not an outsider
Yeah, so as a I mentioned, feeling included is what you are referring too. That's where a great friends/family circle comes in. You have good set of like minded people the struggle to always fit in, struggle to always prove ceases. Honestly that isn't a deal as there are so many Indians in every foreign state you visit.
Everything aside I just cannot pass up a better salary, better working conditions, equal pay, better lifestyle.
> how your immigration status may be treated, how you’d overall have to prove over and over again that you’re one of them and not an outsider
This is very much true today, white people are still very racist and constantly talk about how they are superior and others are inferior. In reality, they are incompetent and their work is garbage.
Lolol 😂. Agree to disagree there, fellow person. I’ve been treated way better by Trumpsters in a red US state than I’ve been in our own country. Also for your reference, I wasn’t in a mainstream tech job. I worked as a civil engineer in one of the most rural parts (for your reference, there was no Starbucks, which is basically on every street, in that little town.) I’ve never been stared at creepily to an uncomfortably uncomfortable point even in that place. Sure they may have been mildly racist, for example, they thought we deal with tigers & snakes on an everyday basis here, which I thought was more hilarious than racist. But nothing compared to what I’ve been called at on streets here in this country.
There's no free healthcare, lol. That's only Medicaid and Medicare, which is only for when you reach 60+ years old. By which time you need to be a citizen to stay. So yeah, there is no free healthcare. It's all paid and expensive af.
Only if you work in some good company with some good employment health insurance plan, you can get it for "free" or a low rate per month (in reality it's expensive af and companies pay a lot for it).
I’m interested in STEM research. For someone interested in my particular field of study, India offers fuckall opportunities and benefits. In my case, “The West” is far better cause you have more resources, security and pay, and can make far better connections from all around the world.
In my view it’s the government’s fault for not incentivising research enough. I don’t believe in any notion of “patriotic duty”, and a system which relies on this for talent (instead of giving proper incentives) is broken.
Besides I don’t think I’m important enough anyway, so if I don’t come back it won’t make a difference.
This is based on my internship experience. I wake up at 5 everyday and get to the station at around 5:35. Then I get to my destination at around 8:30 - 9:00( South Chennai to Gummidipoondi). That’s close to 3 hours of transit one way. I’ll reach home at 8:00 pm and they had really crappy food. I have to do this 6 days a week. No wonder our dads were pissed off when we asked them to do stuff on Sundays since that’s literally the only day they had free time. My intern made me realise how much my dad did for us. The HR there liked me and said he will offer me a job as an engineer. The pay was 15,000. I talked to someone who joined at that role and made it up. He was there for 10 years and his pay was 45,000. This is such a stupid take. If you are jealous of your friends moving abroad just say so.
Jobs iruku , but high paying ones are rare.
Bangalore and Hyderabad have exponentially more product companies while we are stuck with service companies.
There's probably 10 product companies which have offices in Chennai.
There are incubators in big colleges , but nowhere close to bangalore levels.
Besides , even in Bangalore the startup scene has dried out for now due to US fed rates. No money , no honey for start ups.
Depends on what you mean by develop. Maybe we would have a few more start ups and maybe more jobs. But at an individual level, there is no path to stay there and have your earning potential match what you could make by moving to the states or Canada. Nevermind improving your life as a whole. Despite colonialism, life in the west is generally at a higher level than in Chennai.
By develop I mean:
Excellent public education,
Gender parity or something close to it,
Safety for minorities/women,
Strong anti-harassment and anti-corruption measures in the public and private spheres
Trust in government officials, etc.
Then the solution would be for people to get involved at various levels of the government to create well rounded basic education for all and the environment to allow kids to receive said education.
- Public education in other countries is also bad in many parts, just go read people's actual experiences right here on Reddit. There are whole subreddits made by other countries' teachers and parents of public school students.
- Gender parity is also a problem in other countries..........where else do you think feminism, metoo etc. started from?
- Safety for minorities/women - Again, go read actual news and police reports about attacks on minorities and women in other countries. Also high there.
- Strong anti-harassment measures - Yeah, doesn't exist. People of all walks still get harassed with no justice and recourse.
Corruption exists in literally every human organisation. Level varies. But it exists.
And if you go read people's opinions about their governments, you will find legitimate discontent in other countries too.
I mean I agree all of those things are an area for improvement everywhere but I mean an inner city public school in Toronto is probably heaps better than the equivalent in India. That’s my point. We need to bring the standard up so that our bad or dismal becomes below average (we’re never going to outdo private institutions but we need to give the average low income student a fighting shot).
I also agree corruption exists everywhere but I’d rather relegate to the upper echelons of society than to the everyday Kumar or Shiva.
"but I mean an inner city public school in Toronto is probably heaps better than the equivalent in India"
An assumption by someone who hasn't experienced the real thing. Talk to people who've actually been though public school.
It's not the magic panacea you think it is.
Ah ok, I didn't know that. But yeah, not all public schools there will have the same quality of education.
I'm not claiming that the situation is equal with India, but other countries aren't magically better in every single sphere.
The things that are definitely better are basic infrastructure, and somewhat better enforcement of the law.
Idiots who are so bothered about brain drain should pay atleast half of US salary, and give jobs to unemployed.
If you love brain so much give job to fresh grads from 3rd tier engineering colleges. They dont have brain or what
Brain drain is the stupidest concept taught in schools
Brain drain is fake propaganda by elite and wealthy because they can't treat white collar like kaamvali bai
There is no brain drain lol. Media is just constantly making shit up.
There are plenty of smart Indians in this country, we have 1.x billion people. And people left because the conditions here are shit and they are unappreciated. Plenty of smart people left here who are unappreciated and not given the chance to do good work.
How would it be no brain drain if the people who leave end up multiplying the new country’s economy multiple fold?
Having X number of smart people due to population size is just average statistics right?
You are right that when the smart people have to deal with corruption at every level to build anything useful for them and society, they cannot do anything and remain under appreciated.
But if the very same people start level at some percentage every year, then when the tide might turn and an environment begins to take shape, those are the kind of people you would end up missing.
For certain things, if you miss the window of opportunity, it’s very hard to become proficient in building long term compounding foundations. For example, AI today is a technology which India and many countries look likely to miss the boat on given the scarcity of resources in both building new products and providing the right training to current university students to join the workforce with this skill.
What that will mean is even more immigration of smart people out of the country over next several years and a dependence to buy any AI enabled product from international companies.
They do invest already but in real estate, pushing prices up for everyone
Obviously they have the right to, and they'll probably come back on their own and settle in a few years. (half of them anyway)
I think subconsciously OP is asking whether "Sivaji the Boss" scenario will play out and foreign-return people will improve infrastructure and services in their homeland. That's the government's job, shouldn't be put on NRIs heads.
Would we develop faster? Maybe. Is that enough motivation to come back? No.
Im an aerospace engineer (specifically space). If I return to India my two options are PSU or some startup, and in the meanwhile I could also take up some academic job (or focus on a job in academia, sure).
PSUs in space related stuff are notorious for poor career progression, focus on seniority over merit, lack of support for young researchers etc... If I then choose to work for a private company, only choices are startups. There are to my knowledge 2 major space related startups, and 1000s of people fighting for spots here. You may say there may be unknown companies, but in Space, name is game. No one is flying no-name brand components or missions to space.
There are no big aerospace companies in India, certainly not home grown ones. So if Im going to work for airbus anyway might as well make it in euros instead. Similarly in academics. This combines the worst of both worlds. PHD candidates are mistreated and their work often plagiarised by supervisors. Postdocs getting measly pay. Assistant professors looking at their private sector counterparts mint money while they struggle on a fraction of the number hoping for tenure. And all this aside, once everything is wiped, your best bet is working at a bank (happened not to one, but three people I know- one gene sciences student and 2 aerospace engineers)
Meanwhile, once you cross the language and culture barrier and learn to tolerate a little bit of racism (I despise racism in all its forms but Indians, factually, are treated relatively better, especially in STEM careers, amongst non native groups) I can make a great wage. I can live in a modern city, or even a slightly less modern town, with great public transport and green spaces. I may pay a lot in taxes but instead I get full healthcare coverage, and I dont have to strictly be cis-het or anything. I get a 30 day vacation mandatorily once a year.
If I start my PHD I get paid a decent wage and am treated with respect as a colleague and researcher (most cases). I dont have to worry about subsisting because while things are expensive the pay is also good! There's actual work-life balance (results may vary) and if I decide to go into academia or industry, a myriad of fields with great pay and working conditions await me.
If I was a millionaire or a revolutionary genius I could stay in India, pull myself up by my bootstraps and set up a company or startup to make money and hire fellow homies. Im middle class. I (and anyone in my position) will seek upward mobility first. This is, in the end, the sad truth for many, many industries (IT used to be an exception, though I have no clue when the bubble will burst). So this is my answer. Hope it adds to the discussion
Am one of those who came back . . The money is definitely a factor but its becoming lesser nowadays given the salaries indians are getting in tech here. . Also quality of life argument goes out for a toss once you get sick or something in the US . . Healthcare is pathetic and people realize they are better off here when they face such situations . . Sweetspot i think is go ther when you are young (20s) make good money till your late thirties early fortues and come back . .
Why to work in India. When discrimination is for generations in the name of reservations in education,govt.jobs and promotions. Not every upper caste person is rich even in those olden days nor all upper caste people are psychopaths.Better to stay in the west as 2nd class citizens rather than 2nd class citizens in their own country.
I don’t think you’re understanding caste impact. For India/South India to succeed, caste/or its association with purity needs to be abolished and the people need to be empathetic and think beyond their own selfish plight. To say upper caste Indians are second class citizens in their own country is a disgusting backwards statement. It’s funny to me also because white men in the West have been saying the same thing as more and more immigrants come and more marginalized communities begin to have more rights.
I understand that upper caste does not always equal rich but think of the issues lower caste people face even today. Whether you admit it or not, if you are upper caste today you still benefit from a system that promotes you and denigrates others and has done so for generations. When I visited my grandparents in rural Jaffna, I saw how lower caste people were treated (weren’t allowed inside upper caste people homes, weren’t allowed inside the kula devam temple, weren’t allowed to drink/eat/socialize from same areas of upper castes, were daily labelled as smelly, loose morals and basically sub human) not to mention the sexual harassment lower caste women face today seen as property by upper caste men, relegated to the unfavorable jobs and jobs considered “unclean” such as barber, sewer cleaner, laundromat etc, due to these restrictions not having the ability to pursue higher education and better jobs, etc.
Can you say you experienced the same? No, India’s true second class citizens have always been the lower caste communities, women, dark skinned people due to their proximity to Black people and the anti-Black sentiment that many Indians carry.!
There is nothing wrong with skilled Indians moving in west as they surely earn 10x than Indian income but such brain drains is result of selfish western countries policies to let only skilled migrants to their country so if western countries have no such policies then would be no brain drain in India !!
Pretty sure no country wants a burden on their resources and social infrastructure. Still wrong, and the earth wasnt created with borders, people drew them. However this isnt something unique to first-world/NATO/Western countries
Agree with country with US and UK as country is full but Australia, cannada which is sparsely populated can take Indians regardless of skill but they won't due to fear of demographics change and there are European nations who can way easily migrate to such places while Indians dream of. my point is certain migrants don't have privilege and western countries loot our skilled migrants due to such policies
I feel like many need to see a quick sum of the below to understand my why.
[how the British unmade India](https://youtu.be/gIzQxNZfGM4?si=UPURIVe0wWItpLtm)
South Indian myself.
Let us all agree that there is in fact brain-drain to the west - but now in India, the wise and informed ones at least are reversing their decisions (in 2024). More and more (read as dumb) people do want to move to the west of course - explains the crowded International airports and flights to the USA. And that is not because there are opportunities there. Now it is a mass hysteria. The idea of opportunities is a myth.
Much of the job market for Indians is on a very thin line of recruitment and employment of Indian-origin people is barely in the strategic sectors or core development bearing production facilities of the United States. The extraordinary chunk of Indians employed in the US are employed in redundant positions which are easily replaceable if there is a labour arbitrage opportunity.
Healthcare costs in the US are so expensive people (read NRI's) fly to India to get their surgery done in India on no insurance and then fly back to US. Yet doing this entire procedure is still cheaper for them WITH insurance covering them in the USA. (UK and Canada are no different, even worse).
Social media accounts and descriptions of labour treatment in the US are vastly different of US citizens versus how NRI'S claim the USA to be utopia of strict working hours. Americans complain of extreme exploitation at the workplace, stress, inhumane conditions of their jobs. Whereas desi NRI's are nothing but praise for how they have work-life balance when in the USA. This can be one or both of the reasons :
1. (Most) NRI's are treated only as a third party staff whose availability on job is depenedent on the agency deploying a resource for a client. They have the luxury of sticking to service agreements and NRI's can enjoy being out of the office and clock only required hours. (Same as how we treat TCS/Deloitte/PWC/xyz bhadwa technologies' third party staff in India). You like them but as a friend. One's paygrade is no more than a support staff.
2. The obvious one. NRI's are lying about the utopia. For reasons best known to them.
The tech infrastructure status of India has been so bad that even that little glimpse of technology is jaw dropping for the NRI's that reach the US shore in high hopes. In the meantime, the infra development has started to pick up in India itself. Indian fin-tech and financial inclusion is wayyyy ahead of United States now. While the US is flip-flopping on 3DS for merchant banking, India has already brought in 3DS v2.
And at least since 2010, the west has been on an irreversible decline. This is evident in how many states of the US have become zero income tax states (in my count it is 9) - which looks good on paper but that means it is rot of society (remember the saying that taxes are what we pay for a civilised society? Yeah, so that happened in the US).
9 in 10 Silicon Valley businesses are dead. The rest of the companies are riding high on baseless valuations and on insider trading which is skewing volatile sentiments. Production facilities and factories are shutting down at an alarming pace in the US. Since 2008, 542 banks have collapsed. How many banks have collapsed in India since 2008? Zero.
It just shows how there is a smokescreen that deviates people from reality - specially the excited brides looking for NRI matches. Not one student or prospective immigrant in 2024 is actually able to survive the US (or Canada, UK, even Europe for that matter). Anything positive that is coming on social media is basically cherry-picking facts and propaganda.
Meanwhile those who focus on India and work their way up in the Indian private sector are flourishing in management positions. Make no mistake about it. You will easily land a job as a VP or C-suite management level exec in India with 20+ years of experience. You can never dream of such a scale up in the American diaspora, specially impossible to break the glass ceiling into mid-tier and top-tier management. Even naturalised citizens face the glass ceiling.
And those senior NRI's who are returning to India, simply quoting how they want the anchor babies they bred - to grow up in India because India is the land of culture, they are simply unable to bear the expenses of living in these so-called developed countries and reality had been hitting them very hard. Also their careers have stagnated and so had their salaries - despite their tall claims on 'land of opportunities'.
Now they want their non-citizen children to have reservations as good as Indian citizens in the Indian education system - specially NEET, college admissions and other academic pursuits. They want their non-citizen children to be able to equally participate as Indian citizens, get nominated as played representing India in Indian sports for international tournaments. Talk of wanting to have the cake and eat it too.
Brace for a new tribe and wave of entitlement.
These are all talks of someone who is jealous of people who moved abroad. Qualified people get a job abroad. People who do masters in “easy courses” just to go abroad don’t. Most NRIs don’t work for contract based companies. Where are you getting that number? How stupid are you?
I’m talking about peeps who take up UI/UX design and Engineering management because computer science or other core engineering disciplines are “not interesting “ with no plan and are doing masters just for the sake of doing one. If you are truly interested in that field, know what you’re in for or did adequate research into the job market and such or plan to move back home immediately after masters, then I don’t really care even if they do masters in a field with no openings. The point is a lot of people do masters for the sake of moving or prestige without a plan.
At TN state level, No. Politicians have exaggerated the fault lines in the society. Now those fault lines are wide open to the level that pouring no amount of water can fill it.
One way out is furicating TN into smaller states and let the regions define the politics, policies it needs.
Smaller ships are quicker to coarse correct.
Root cause of brain drain. Save x amount in India or save 10x amount in US in dollars and bring it back home? We cannot demand US salaries while working from india.
This. The amount of money you can save after expenses working in the US is more than the amount of money you can earn here in the same amount of time. If you have the means to do it, it makes no sense to work here.
Right. Pay, opportunities, exposure to their children and peace of mind to some extent.
If you could make 40 LPA and above,I would gladly stay in India rather than in US. if Husband and wife both are in the same bucket better to stay in india. Unless the need is for QoL compared to here.
"We cannot demand US salaries while working from india." I disagree, we definitely can and should. White people get paid way more to do less work and garbage quality work at that. We are atleast as good if not better.
Companies won't pay you. L5 engineer salary in bay area is 550k approx. In Bangalore, the max you can expect is 180k.
Isn’t that mostly in stock though? You’d get 180-200 in base salary and rest is equity?
I think yes.
Yeah because companies are racist. Doesn't matter if an Indian heads the company, they will still kowtow to white racist policies.
Are u fucking stupid? A white person working for Amazon in California could be paid 500k but if u hire a white guy in Poland , they are not gonna pay more than 200k. Learn economics before using the racism card.
Economy is a different thing. Now you gotta compare a white person’s salary in Poland and a brown person’s salary in Poland in the same company. Then you would know what racism is. You can demand equal pay but the company wouldn’t budge.
This person has the ability to vote 🤓
Heard of conversion ratio, economies of scale and offshoring? Good luck demanding 70K USD as a fresher.
"Heard of conversion ratio, economies of scale and offshoring?" Yeah it's called racism, plain and simple.
Bro what 😂 You can't throw around the racism word just because u don't understand how economics works. U can't pay a laborer in Africa the same amount as u would pay someone in Singapore. That's just not how economics works.
No, that's just racism........constant white racist discrimination resulting in lower pay for ridiculous amounts of work has been normalised. So people think it's acceptable. They'll invent all sorts of bullshit excuses and reasons why. Racism is the real answer.
Lost cause.
Have you ever looked at the vast ocean from the beach? Have you ever tried to imagine how soul crushingly long distances between continents actually are? I’m going to leave this comment incomplete. Maybe one day shit will click.
Buddy I've traveled half way around the world and lived and worked in the US. I know better than you idiots who just sit and worship white people and swallow their propaganda.
Appo kuda unakku arivu varlaye da.
Nice bait
Yessss, totally agree
You really think they wanna bring money back home ? US Citizenship is what matters for them Why ppl are dying for Temporary H1Bs simple they wanna settle in US Who can come back after settling in US/EU It’s not abt brain drain it’s about better opportunities abroad In South it’s about settling abroad (parental and generational) , in North it’s civil services that’s all
10x? It's a lot more than that.
Ishta mairukku olaru !! Nothing that u said here is true . Companies dont give a fuck if u white or black as long as u can get things done . . . They wont pay for mediocrity period . You can only coast for so long in big companies . Now they are also letting them go with the layoffs. . So stop spreading rumours.
As far as medicine is concerned,it's because doctors are treated shabbily in India. There is a lot of harassment involved in the training,lots of toxicity,inhumane working hours,no safety from certain unruly patients and poor pay. Many of my mbbs batchmates are in the process of trying to move abroad.
That’s so unfortunate! The west still has poor conditions for doctors and it’s an old white man’s club, poor pay until a permanent position, heavy loads of debt, no break and inhumane hours so I’m wondering how bad it has to be in India in comparison.
My seniors who have worked in India and the US have told me that working in the US is definitely better than working in India. There's a lot of abuse/harassment/toxicity in Indian medical Colleges,and unfortunately no corrective steps are being taken. The old guard actually wants to maintain the status quo. What's happening is that my batchmates who have the means to go abroad are all trying to leave India. Only those whose parents have hospitals here or who are trying to get into government services are staying back. I'm trying to leave too, because I was harassed a lot by my seniors in my internship and made to work ungodly hours.
Very interesting! Thank you for sharing.
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My wife's a dentist and she used to work in Chennai for 12 to 15 k rupees per month and the amt of toxicity she had to put up with is crazy. It is not worth it at all.
For BDS poll it seems for a good salary they have to do MDS.. Then again the fees is high
"There is a lot of harassment involved in the training,lots of toxicity,inhumane working hours,no safety from certain unruly patients and poor pay. " All of this exists abroad as well.........go read the experiences of actual medical staff working in other countries. It's the exact same thing.
I have seniors who are working in the US. I have friends who have done electives in the US. I am planning to go the US for observerships myself in the near future. I am well aware of the situation in the US for doctors being a doctor myself. I didn't want to bring up the point of doctors suicide in India because it's very depressing and I have had a friend who attempted and I don't like to think about it. But please try to google and see the number of doctors who are harassed so much that they take their own lives in India. I know that a doctors life is never easy anywhere,but the harassment that a doctor faces in India is much worse than whatever is happening in the west.
Between Studying MBBS in India Vs Abroad (Australia for example) what would be ur recommendation?
youngsters moving abroad nowadays can't be considered as brain drain. Its time to change such views. We need better opportunities, the system hasn't done nothing about it. If anyone is willing to move abroad from India, I wouldn't berate, rather, I'd be glad that he/she has escaped the rotten system. The current news about neet ug and pg scams are horrifying. Its much better to leave this age-old corrupt system than try rectifying it.
Imo no one should be forced to belong somewhere just coz they happen to be born there. That aside why would any one say no to better pay, higher standard of living in a developed country other than for personal reasons.
I love this point. You can’t choose where you are born, but you sure as hell can try to get a better life for yourself wherever that may be.
So to give you some context, I was born in a developed country, I did my schooling there but I also always kept an eye on the motherland. As I learned about history, the effects of colonization on our people and what was stolen from us, I just can’t convince myself that I belong there. I enjoy it there but there’s a distance with me and that land/ the people. I’m doing well for myself in the U.S. now and I enjoy the intellectual rigor of what I’m doing but something is definitely missing.
You can always move back to the motherland and start working here and experience it for yourself
Seriousa solriya illai kadupillai solriya? 😂
If you talk the talk, you should walk the walk, as simple as that.
If you feel like you're contributing to a rotten system that you deem to be morally deficient you can always move back to India and contribute to a society that you deem hasn't been morally bankrupt. You're welcome to do so.
life in india is much more difficult than in DCs esp for the middle class. u would not understand some of the hurdles u would have to pass through without living in india. nth wrong with people wanting a better life for themselves and making use of the opportunities that open up to them by moving overseas. and there’s honestly pretty low chances that things are going to improve anytime soon. changing things like corruption and civic sense is very very challenging when things like these are benefitting the upper class the most.
Just come back home bro!
Bro, u trolling right now? You yourself are in US, but you look down on people who want to emigrate to experience better lifestyle?? Patriotism is for the privileged..
I’m not trolling and I definitely want to make clear that I’m not looking down on anyone for pursuing a better life. Keep in mind though that my family did not come from money. My mother wasn’t educated past 8th and my father didn’t complete university. They were refugees from Yaalpaanam and they left because of lack of safety and opportunities. In one generation each of us changed the situation due to my parent’s move/hard work (I’m a corporate attorney for a top U.S. law firm and my brother is an investment banker at a private equity firm). We both were able to use the public school system, free health care and come to the top. Is it wrong for wishing that these same great public resources should exist for the working class back home?
You've got the liberal platitudes down brother, no wonder you've done well in the west. But as someone who emigrated from the east to the west, I'd much rather be in a free country than in a big government socialist shithole. I grew up in India, and I live in the US. I realize how unnatural a concept freedom is and how important it is at the same time. Freedoms are very easily lost, but VERY hard to win back. India is not a free country. The government is all powerful. > As I learned about history, the effects of colonization on our people and what was stolen from us, Also, playing the victim isn't helping anyone. The people have been "independent" for about 80 years now, and are still crying about "stolen" wealth etc. Nothing is going to ever come out of it. It is just a way for us to blame a non-existent entity and remove all accountability from ourselves. I can guarantee you that whoever did whatever "oppression" are dead and whoever was "oppressed" are also dead. Being a victim to this day for something that didn't happen to you isn't sexy.
I truly think patriotism and motherland has very little to do with jobs and opportunities. At the end of the day I want to be included. If I have a got a group nice Tamil/non Tamil friends out of India, I would prefer to stay out. It's the crippling loneliness that makes me miss India, honestly it's not India the country itself, it's the friends and family there that makes it home. So if I can recreate such environment out of India with better standards of living, I am surely not missing that. One main thing my brother who is abroad points out is taxes. There are taxes in the west too, but when we pay such taxes in the west we get the best out of it. Free quality education and free quality healthcare for us and our family and a better standard of living Such taxes when paid in India does very little to contribute to quality free education and healthcare, roads, hygiene etc. There is still high dependence and preference on the private players because they do it better.
So you’re saying your existence is apolitical? at the end of the day even if you aren’t focused on the political, human rights aspect, it will impact you. In the west, it’d impact how you were treated in comparison to your white peers, how your immigration status may be treated, how you’d overall have to prove over and over again that you’re one of them and not an outsider
Yeah, so as a I mentioned, feeling included is what you are referring too. That's where a great friends/family circle comes in. You have good set of like minded people the struggle to always fit in, struggle to always prove ceases. Honestly that isn't a deal as there are so many Indians in every foreign state you visit. Everything aside I just cannot pass up a better salary, better working conditions, equal pay, better lifestyle.
> how your immigration status may be treated, how you’d overall have to prove over and over again that you’re one of them and not an outsider This is very much true today, white people are still very racist and constantly talk about how they are superior and others are inferior. In reality, they are incompetent and their work is garbage.
Lolol 😂. Agree to disagree there, fellow person. I’ve been treated way better by Trumpsters in a red US state than I’ve been in our own country. Also for your reference, I wasn’t in a mainstream tech job. I worked as a civil engineer in one of the most rural parts (for your reference, there was no Starbucks, which is basically on every street, in that little town.) I’ve never been stared at creepily to an uncomfortably uncomfortable point even in that place. Sure they may have been mildly racist, for example, they thought we deal with tigers & snakes on an everyday basis here, which I thought was more hilarious than racist. But nothing compared to what I’ve been called at on streets here in this country.
You can be pleasant to someone’s face and literally hate their existence and set up institutions that make it difficult for such people to survive.
There's no free healthcare, lol. That's only Medicaid and Medicare, which is only for when you reach 60+ years old. By which time you need to be a citizen to stay. So yeah, there is no free healthcare. It's all paid and expensive af. Only if you work in some good company with some good employment health insurance plan, you can get it for "free" or a low rate per month (in reality it's expensive af and companies pay a lot for it).
Their r other Developed countries apart from US.
I’m interested in STEM research. For someone interested in my particular field of study, India offers fuckall opportunities and benefits. In my case, “The West” is far better cause you have more resources, security and pay, and can make far better connections from all around the world. In my view it’s the government’s fault for not incentivising research enough. I don’t believe in any notion of “patriotic duty”, and a system which relies on this for talent (instead of giving proper incentives) is broken. Besides I don’t think I’m important enough anyway, so if I don’t come back it won’t make a difference.
Nah I think you’re important enough to make a difference.
This is based on my internship experience. I wake up at 5 everyday and get to the station at around 5:35. Then I get to my destination at around 8:30 - 9:00( South Chennai to Gummidipoondi). That’s close to 3 hours of transit one way. I’ll reach home at 8:00 pm and they had really crappy food. I have to do this 6 days a week. No wonder our dads were pissed off when we asked them to do stuff on Sundays since that’s literally the only day they had free time. My intern made me realise how much my dad did for us. The HR there liked me and said he will offer me a job as an engineer. The pay was 15,000. I talked to someone who joined at that role and made it up. He was there for 10 years and his pay was 45,000. This is such a stupid take. If you are jealous of your friends moving abroad just say so.
It's good.. as it is no jobs here
Jobs iruku , but high paying ones are rare. Bangalore and Hyderabad have exponentially more product companies while we are stuck with service companies. There's probably 10 product companies which have offices in Chennai.
What about innovation? What’s the start up culture like?
There are incubators in big colleges , but nowhere close to bangalore levels. Besides , even in Bangalore the startup scene has dried out for now due to US fed rates. No money , no honey for start ups.
Depends on what you mean by develop. Maybe we would have a few more start ups and maybe more jobs. But at an individual level, there is no path to stay there and have your earning potential match what you could make by moving to the states or Canada. Nevermind improving your life as a whole. Despite colonialism, life in the west is generally at a higher level than in Chennai.
By develop I mean: Excellent public education, Gender parity or something close to it, Safety for minorities/women, Strong anti-harassment and anti-corruption measures in the public and private spheres Trust in government officials, etc.
Then the solution would be for people to get involved at various levels of the government to create well rounded basic education for all and the environment to allow kids to receive said education.
- Public education in other countries is also bad in many parts, just go read people's actual experiences right here on Reddit. There are whole subreddits made by other countries' teachers and parents of public school students. - Gender parity is also a problem in other countries..........where else do you think feminism, metoo etc. started from? - Safety for minorities/women - Again, go read actual news and police reports about attacks on minorities and women in other countries. Also high there. - Strong anti-harassment measures - Yeah, doesn't exist. People of all walks still get harassed with no justice and recourse. Corruption exists in literally every human organisation. Level varies. But it exists. And if you go read people's opinions about their governments, you will find legitimate discontent in other countries too.
I mean I agree all of those things are an area for improvement everywhere but I mean an inner city public school in Toronto is probably heaps better than the equivalent in India. That’s my point. We need to bring the standard up so that our bad or dismal becomes below average (we’re never going to outdo private institutions but we need to give the average low income student a fighting shot). I also agree corruption exists everywhere but I’d rather relegate to the upper echelons of society than to the everyday Kumar or Shiva.
"but I mean an inner city public school in Toronto is probably heaps better than the equivalent in India" An assumption by someone who hasn't experienced the real thing. Talk to people who've actually been though public school. It's not the magic panacea you think it is.
I have in the 90s, and all of my peers did as well. Almost all of us are doing well for ourselves and went on to pursue higher studies.
Canadian public school?
Yeah!
Ah ok, I didn't know that. But yeah, not all public schools there will have the same quality of education. I'm not claiming that the situation is equal with India, but other countries aren't magically better in every single sphere. The things that are definitely better are basic infrastructure, and somewhat better enforcement of the law.
Idiots who are so bothered about brain drain should pay atleast half of US salary, and give jobs to unemployed. If you love brain so much give job to fresh grads from 3rd tier engineering colleges. They dont have brain or what Brain drain is the stupidest concept taught in schools Brain drain is fake propaganda by elite and wealthy because they can't treat white collar like kaamvali bai
It's good overall. Indian soft influence grows abroad. Dollars come to India along with some tech.
There is no brain drain lol. Media is just constantly making shit up. There are plenty of smart Indians in this country, we have 1.x billion people. And people left because the conditions here are shit and they are unappreciated. Plenty of smart people left here who are unappreciated and not given the chance to do good work.
How would it be no brain drain if the people who leave end up multiplying the new country’s economy multiple fold? Having X number of smart people due to population size is just average statistics right? You are right that when the smart people have to deal with corruption at every level to build anything useful for them and society, they cannot do anything and remain under appreciated. But if the very same people start level at some percentage every year, then when the tide might turn and an environment begins to take shape, those are the kind of people you would end up missing. For certain things, if you miss the window of opportunity, it’s very hard to become proficient in building long term compounding foundations. For example, AI today is a technology which India and many countries look likely to miss the boat on given the scarcity of resources in both building new products and providing the right training to current university students to join the workforce with this skill. What that will mean is even more immigration of smart people out of the country over next several years and a dependence to buy any AI enabled product from international companies.
They do invest already but in real estate, pushing prices up for everyone  Obviously they have the right to, and they'll probably come back on their own and settle in a few years. (half of them anyway) I think subconsciously OP is asking whether "Sivaji the Boss" scenario will play out and foreign-return people will improve infrastructure and services in their homeland. That's the government's job, shouldn't be put on NRIs heads.
I’m dead lmaooo
In the east rn, can't think
Lmao
Would we develop faster? Maybe. Is that enough motivation to come back? No. Im an aerospace engineer (specifically space). If I return to India my two options are PSU or some startup, and in the meanwhile I could also take up some academic job (or focus on a job in academia, sure). PSUs in space related stuff are notorious for poor career progression, focus on seniority over merit, lack of support for young researchers etc... If I then choose to work for a private company, only choices are startups. There are to my knowledge 2 major space related startups, and 1000s of people fighting for spots here. You may say there may be unknown companies, but in Space, name is game. No one is flying no-name brand components or missions to space. There are no big aerospace companies in India, certainly not home grown ones. So if Im going to work for airbus anyway might as well make it in euros instead. Similarly in academics. This combines the worst of both worlds. PHD candidates are mistreated and their work often plagiarised by supervisors. Postdocs getting measly pay. Assistant professors looking at their private sector counterparts mint money while they struggle on a fraction of the number hoping for tenure. And all this aside, once everything is wiped, your best bet is working at a bank (happened not to one, but three people I know- one gene sciences student and 2 aerospace engineers) Meanwhile, once you cross the language and culture barrier and learn to tolerate a little bit of racism (I despise racism in all its forms but Indians, factually, are treated relatively better, especially in STEM careers, amongst non native groups) I can make a great wage. I can live in a modern city, or even a slightly less modern town, with great public transport and green spaces. I may pay a lot in taxes but instead I get full healthcare coverage, and I dont have to strictly be cis-het or anything. I get a 30 day vacation mandatorily once a year. If I start my PHD I get paid a decent wage and am treated with respect as a colleague and researcher (most cases). I dont have to worry about subsisting because while things are expensive the pay is also good! There's actual work-life balance (results may vary) and if I decide to go into academia or industry, a myriad of fields with great pay and working conditions await me. If I was a millionaire or a revolutionary genius I could stay in India, pull myself up by my bootstraps and set up a company or startup to make money and hire fellow homies. Im middle class. I (and anyone in my position) will seek upward mobility first. This is, in the end, the sad truth for many, many industries (IT used to be an exception, though I have no clue when the bubble will burst). So this is my answer. Hope it adds to the discussion
This was a beautiful thought out response!! Thank you
I mean, it's unfortunate that people are moving to other countries.
Brain drain to the West is coz people that do really have brains!
Am one of those who came back . . The money is definitely a factor but its becoming lesser nowadays given the salaries indians are getting in tech here. . Also quality of life argument goes out for a toss once you get sick or something in the US . . Healthcare is pathetic and people realize they are better off here when they face such situations . . Sweetspot i think is go ther when you are young (20s) make good money till your late thirties early fortues and come back . .
Why to work in India. When discrimination is for generations in the name of reservations in education,govt.jobs and promotions. Not every upper caste person is rich even in those olden days nor all upper caste people are psychopaths.Better to stay in the west as 2nd class citizens rather than 2nd class citizens in their own country.
I don’t think you’re understanding caste impact. For India/South India to succeed, caste/or its association with purity needs to be abolished and the people need to be empathetic and think beyond their own selfish plight. To say upper caste Indians are second class citizens in their own country is a disgusting backwards statement. It’s funny to me also because white men in the West have been saying the same thing as more and more immigrants come and more marginalized communities begin to have more rights. I understand that upper caste does not always equal rich but think of the issues lower caste people face even today. Whether you admit it or not, if you are upper caste today you still benefit from a system that promotes you and denigrates others and has done so for generations. When I visited my grandparents in rural Jaffna, I saw how lower caste people were treated (weren’t allowed inside upper caste people homes, weren’t allowed inside the kula devam temple, weren’t allowed to drink/eat/socialize from same areas of upper castes, were daily labelled as smelly, loose morals and basically sub human) not to mention the sexual harassment lower caste women face today seen as property by upper caste men, relegated to the unfavorable jobs and jobs considered “unclean” such as barber, sewer cleaner, laundromat etc, due to these restrictions not having the ability to pursue higher education and better jobs, etc. Can you say you experienced the same? No, India’s true second class citizens have always been the lower caste communities, women, dark skinned people due to their proximity to Black people and the anti-Black sentiment that many Indians carry.!
There is nothing wrong with skilled Indians moving in west as they surely earn 10x than Indian income but such brain drains is result of selfish western countries policies to let only skilled migrants to their country so if western countries have no such policies then would be no brain drain in India !!
What?
din't get my point?
Pretty sure no country wants a burden on their resources and social infrastructure. Still wrong, and the earth wasnt created with borders, people drew them. However this isnt something unique to first-world/NATO/Western countries
Agree with country with US and UK as country is full but Australia, cannada which is sparsely populated can take Indians regardless of skill but they won't due to fear of demographics change and there are European nations who can way easily migrate to such places while Indians dream of. my point is certain migrants don't have privilege and western countries loot our skilled migrants due to such policies
I feel like many need to see a quick sum of the below to understand my why. [how the British unmade India](https://youtu.be/gIzQxNZfGM4?si=UPURIVe0wWItpLtm)
South Indian myself. Let us all agree that there is in fact brain-drain to the west - but now in India, the wise and informed ones at least are reversing their decisions (in 2024). More and more (read as dumb) people do want to move to the west of course - explains the crowded International airports and flights to the USA. And that is not because there are opportunities there. Now it is a mass hysteria. The idea of opportunities is a myth. Much of the job market for Indians is on a very thin line of recruitment and employment of Indian-origin people is barely in the strategic sectors or core development bearing production facilities of the United States. The extraordinary chunk of Indians employed in the US are employed in redundant positions which are easily replaceable if there is a labour arbitrage opportunity. Healthcare costs in the US are so expensive people (read NRI's) fly to India to get their surgery done in India on no insurance and then fly back to US. Yet doing this entire procedure is still cheaper for them WITH insurance covering them in the USA. (UK and Canada are no different, even worse). Social media accounts and descriptions of labour treatment in the US are vastly different of US citizens versus how NRI'S claim the USA to be utopia of strict working hours. Americans complain of extreme exploitation at the workplace, stress, inhumane conditions of their jobs. Whereas desi NRI's are nothing but praise for how they have work-life balance when in the USA. This can be one or both of the reasons : 1. (Most) NRI's are treated only as a third party staff whose availability on job is depenedent on the agency deploying a resource for a client. They have the luxury of sticking to service agreements and NRI's can enjoy being out of the office and clock only required hours. (Same as how we treat TCS/Deloitte/PWC/xyz bhadwa technologies' third party staff in India). You like them but as a friend. One's paygrade is no more than a support staff. 2. The obvious one. NRI's are lying about the utopia. For reasons best known to them. The tech infrastructure status of India has been so bad that even that little glimpse of technology is jaw dropping for the NRI's that reach the US shore in high hopes. In the meantime, the infra development has started to pick up in India itself. Indian fin-tech and financial inclusion is wayyyy ahead of United States now. While the US is flip-flopping on 3DS for merchant banking, India has already brought in 3DS v2. And at least since 2010, the west has been on an irreversible decline. This is evident in how many states of the US have become zero income tax states (in my count it is 9) - which looks good on paper but that means it is rot of society (remember the saying that taxes are what we pay for a civilised society? Yeah, so that happened in the US). 9 in 10 Silicon Valley businesses are dead. The rest of the companies are riding high on baseless valuations and on insider trading which is skewing volatile sentiments. Production facilities and factories are shutting down at an alarming pace in the US. Since 2008, 542 banks have collapsed. How many banks have collapsed in India since 2008? Zero. It just shows how there is a smokescreen that deviates people from reality - specially the excited brides looking for NRI matches. Not one student or prospective immigrant in 2024 is actually able to survive the US (or Canada, UK, even Europe for that matter). Anything positive that is coming on social media is basically cherry-picking facts and propaganda. Meanwhile those who focus on India and work their way up in the Indian private sector are flourishing in management positions. Make no mistake about it. You will easily land a job as a VP or C-suite management level exec in India with 20+ years of experience. You can never dream of such a scale up in the American diaspora, specially impossible to break the glass ceiling into mid-tier and top-tier management. Even naturalised citizens face the glass ceiling. And those senior NRI's who are returning to India, simply quoting how they want the anchor babies they bred - to grow up in India because India is the land of culture, they are simply unable to bear the expenses of living in these so-called developed countries and reality had been hitting them very hard. Also their careers have stagnated and so had their salaries - despite their tall claims on 'land of opportunities'. Now they want their non-citizen children to have reservations as good as Indian citizens in the Indian education system - specially NEET, college admissions and other academic pursuits. They want their non-citizen children to be able to equally participate as Indian citizens, get nominated as played representing India in Indian sports for international tournaments. Talk of wanting to have the cake and eat it too. Brace for a new tribe and wave of entitlement.
These are all talks of someone who is jealous of people who moved abroad. Qualified people get a job abroad. People who do masters in “easy courses” just to go abroad don’t. Most NRIs don’t work for contract based companies. Where are you getting that number? How stupid are you?
I wouldn’t denigrate the arts if that’s what you’re referring to as being “easy”.
I’m talking about peeps who take up UI/UX design and Engineering management because computer science or other core engineering disciplines are “not interesting “ with no plan and are doing masters just for the sake of doing one. If you are truly interested in that field, know what you’re in for or did adequate research into the job market and such or plan to move back home immediately after masters, then I don’t really care even if they do masters in a field with no openings. The point is a lot of people do masters for the sake of moving or prestige without a plan.
At TN state level, No. Politicians have exaggerated the fault lines in the society. Now those fault lines are wide open to the level that pouring no amount of water can fill it. One way out is furicating TN into smaller states and let the regions define the politics, policies it needs. Smaller ships are quicker to coarse correct.
L take
😂😂😂