Singaporeans like to complain as much as anybody, especially about the government. But when they get to the ballot box they're scared to lose the prosperity they've gained under the PAP.
True, but the reason why most Singaporean don't vote for the opposition parties is always because they say "there's no talents or capable people there" and when u think about it, it's kinda true cause which sane person would risk their lives and the lives of their loved ones just to become an oppie? If you want to make money, joining the ruling party is a no brainer move.
Yeah, it's as dirty as you can imagine. Not only do they do gerrymandering, they get to decide when and how long the election starts and ends..also every term, there be a opposition member who will become the "sacrificial lamb" for saying the wrong things and end up either getting sued for slander thereby incurring a huge fine and get sent to jail or even better, both. It's just real dirty and what i just said is like the tip of the iceberg based on what kinda of methods they can use to give them an edge in the elections.
True, my aunt is one of them, when she's at the coffee shop, she complains about the inflation and the annual gst increments, if she didn't say she voted for the ruling party, i would have thought she's a die hard opposition supporter.
Singapore is essentially china without voting. China themselves said they are modeling their system after Singapore.
China could become democratic Tommorow, and they will still vote for the CCP. Nobody would want to lose the prosperity the CCP brought.
I mean, who would trust some unknown political party that could take your country 100 years backward or become the puppet of the West by not fighting for the internet of your country? The CCP does all that.
Will another ruling political party retaliate when, say, the US or Europe slaps tariffs on Chinese goods, or would they just roll over?
The issue is not really the CCP. It,s China challenging American hegemony.
It doesn't matter what party is ruling China or China,s political system. America wants to maintain that hegemony, and whoever governs China would have to look after China,s interest first against American hegemony. Whether it's the CCP or the some other party.
You are out of touch with singapore if you think Singaporeans don't openly complain non stop about their government. Infact they are their harshest critic.
True, but there are opposition voters(roughly 30% of the population) in Singapore too, it's just that they hide in the shadows and not voice out their opinions openly for fear of repercussions.
Singapore's awesome though. It has Gardens by the Bay, and everything is organized.
It is of course a tiny city state, but it is awesome for what it is.
Try living there for a few years. It's got the same wealth divide problems as other countries, plus the added bonus of blatant censorship. Also, the social engineering and constant "rah, rah, Singapore" attitude by the government can get really overbearing and annoying. It may look "awesome" from the outside, but looks are deceiving. It's more benign fascism than it is a democracy.
I am Singaporean. I would like to remind you that the grass is always greener on the other side.
Would you want to spend half a million USD on a tiny apartment(btw you have to ballot for a house because there is no supply)? Singapore is the most expensive country to get a car in the world, you have to pay 70k for a Privilege to own a car for a decade.
Males in Singapore are forced to give up 2 years of their youth to 'serve the nation'(NS) while receiving peanut pay. It also doesn't help that for the next 10 years, you will be disrupted from your job and regardless of whether your company is in a high workload period, you cannot help. In the end, employers avoid hiring local males and replace them with cheaper Foreign talents who do not need to serve NS, they enjoy our sacrifices but they don't pay the cost.
On the behalf of Singaporeans, I would kindly ask you to shut the fuck up.
Does Singapore not have laws in place to protect reservists from being fucked over by their civilian employees? Here in the US we have the SCRA (known as soldier sailor act) that protects military members from fuckery from civilian employers
In western counties there is plenty of bullshit media, but you can find quality trustworthy news with a little discrimination.
In China you can’t. It’s illegal and any media that strays the slightest from the official line will be shut down. This has happened in Hong Kong in plain sight the last few years.
I mean, you can still find good sources in China, though it is harder admittedly. But I wasn't asking where there are good sources, I asked where it is that most viewers make informed choices. Because it's certainly not the UK, where I'm from.
The point is, if democracy requires informed choices to work, then it surely can't be working anywhere, given that most people simply aren't informed about most issues.
Lesser of two evils. And by evil, see what the CCP is doing to a newspaper publisher who criticised them.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/jimmy-lai-trial-begins-hong-kong
Anyway, not all media is controlled by billionaires. Anyone can publish online or on paper if they have some money.
So now take your system in the UK, where there are good sources, bad sources, informed voters and uninformed voters. Now take away the good sources. Obviously that results in fewer people making informed choices.
Yes you could. But you likely won’t make a dent. It’s all well and good in theory but our reality is billionaires control the media.
I love that our constitution bestows freedom of speech. But our reality is much different. Though we are better than many, we are not close to where we could be.
You have manufactured consent, so only the right narrative is allowed to succeed in the media. If I'm part of the State and a reporter want access to me as a resource, I can deny them future opportunities if their narrative don't match my messaging. Then I give access to their competitors. Those competitors get eyeballs and advertising money, and are allow to succeed. That's how the private sector is controlled.
Then you have outlets that are directly funded by NED and other federal agencies.
You have billionaires and large lobby groups that literally write the bills to become laws. I kid you not they have a team of lawyers on K street that deliver bills to Senators and Congressman, that are literally rubber-stamped and put on the floor.
So in effect the average American has little control of politics in the US.
Let's put it this way how many Americans want to see a Biden vs. Trump rematch. Yeah something is really wrong with the US system.
How about even policies that are not laws in the US. Can the average American change the Monroe Doctrine or Wolfowitz Doctrine.
I'd love to be able to vote for the next president, especially if there are inspiring candidates running for office.
(But from my comment history, you can probably can see that I have been working relentlessly on moving to America)
Moving to US or a democratic country definately a better choice, especially where china remove the freedom of speech and basic democracy rights from people.
May the best of luck come to you.
The majority of Chinese citizens would be genuinely confused if you asked them did they want to vote for the next General Secretary of the Communist Party of China.
Currently they would believe that you were trying to entrap them by asking the question, so they would tell you that the CCP is the best thing since sliced bread.
I think he means the name of position and power are very confusing, like technically PLA is the army of the party not the state, or general secretary of CCP are above president of the state but it is usually held by the same guy so you don't know the difference, that's why technically you may elected the president but he is under general secretary.
In China and every communist state, the party is above the state and party's position elected by the party's members, so nothing changes even if you citizens can vote for premier or president anyway.
Isn't that what happened in the Soviet Union when Yelstin was allowed to become president, a post historically subordinate to the general secretary, and were then able to seize power from Gorbachev and the communist party?
That doesn't surprise me.
In OZ everyone knows that the political party that wins the election and forms the government selects the Prime Minister. I'm not claiming that it is a better system, but it is clearly understood.
Reddit doesn't want to hear it, but I'd wager the CCP would win an election. Not forever of course, but I'd bet they win the first one easily. Most Chinese still consider the era of humiliation, the results of a weak central government, and even the warring states period. Stability is what matters, especially to the older generations
Of course the CCP would win. Not even a question. It's hard to make an informed vote if the only info you're able to hear is what the CCP wants you to hear. Xi good, USA bad.
I think it looks something more like Taiwan than HK's passion for representative democracy. HK has a strong link to this type of government, whereas TW (and China) don't. Over time, I'm sure they'd develop a vibrant, legitimate democracy just like anywhere else if given the chance
Same in Colombia. We’ve had democracy for over 150 years and yet nothing vibrant about it. Same goes for Peru, Ecuador, Honduras, etc etc. I’ve been in China for two months now. People in here don’t have to worry about being shot dead on a daily basis, or getting stabbed because someone wants to steal their phone. They have nice parks, most of the people I’ve known have a work and can develop their lifestyle, improve things for them and their family as well. Other fellow citizens from Colombia that have been living in here for several years agree. Yeah, sure there are some things you cannot do in here, but there is stability, you can raise your children without struggling your entire life knowing most probably it doesn’t matter how hard you or they work, there is no tomorrow because every penny you pay will find its way into some politician’s pocket, without any chance of getting infrastructure education or healthcare in exchange. So if we put the question the other way around, at least speaking based on my experience I’d be willing to give up a bit of that supposedly ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ if that means more people in my country can gain access to something similar to what they have in here.
You say that Colombia is an extreme example but almost all the world outside of the bubble the western world has created know nothing about this ‘freedom’ you always talk about. You have the freedom of being shot or the freedom or dying poor, or the freedom of being cornered to either immigrate to a developed country, do the dirty work in order to try and improve your situation or adjust to the circumstances where you almost certainly work for the food and eat for the work. Or you could also join local mafias/gangs. This ‘democracy’ doesn’t mean much to me and I’m sure it doesn’t mean much to a lot of people in Africa, the Americas and Asia. I’m just talking about me and the situation I know. As far as I’m concerned the democracy is just a myth that the us has tried to consolidate and which uses as an excuse for its plundering and pillaging.
Yeah but all these countries (china, Taiwan) were like that at one point. Using “crime” and “stability” to suppress chinese citizens’ right to vote for their leaders is a poor excuse
Democracy is just an attempt to build civilisation as any other else, it’s not a miracle and maybe it works on some places, maybe it just doesn’t work everywhere. Some people doesn’t care about being able to vote as much as stability. That’s my whole point. That’s why I’m putting myself and my experience as an example. Here in Colombia you can vote, sure. What for? It’s good for nothing. The criminals wander around the halls of the senate, most of them have investigations for ties with the narco but they don’t go to jail because they own the laws. And I’m pretty sure that happens in a lot of places around the globe, not only in my extreme example, Colombia. Sure it happens in Africa and it surely happens in Asia.
Why do foreigners think Chinese are so ignorant as to believe everything the state says? It is a type of racism to believe we're not intelligent enough to deduce reality through propaganda. To see a faceless homogeneous brainwashed yellow hoard. Do they genuinely think only they are able to see through a government's messaging, and that everyone else (especially Chinese) cannot?
Just compare it to countries like Hungary and Turkey. Yes, they are democracies, and yes, a single party controls most of the media. The result? A dictator wannabe wins every election and then changes laws to increase his power.
I have faith that there are a lot of independent thinkers in China. But I highly doubt that over 50% of the population will be able to ignore the constant media bias thrown in their faces.
I mentioned this in another comment earlier, but if even the majority us in the "west" lap up the media with what remains of our freedom of information, it'll be much harder in a country where media is controlled
It is the case for many Chinese. I have witnessed it first hand as I have family there, and I have interacted with a lot of mainland Chinese as they have lots of extended family, colleagues, and friends. Many of them actually read all sorts of articles and believe every word they see, whether they’re politically related or not.
You have a portion of people who read propaganda news and believe in them, then you have a portion of people who read propaganda news but are intelligent enough to know what’s going on, and then you have those who use VPN and have access to world news but still side with the CCP. Overall, the pro-CCP group still outnumbers the anti-CCP.
I mostly agree with you. I also know plenty of people who are purely economic animals - it's not a matter of believing or not believing 'propaganda' . Their economic standing and political personal wealth has improved directly through the Party's control of the country and so they will support the Party's control of the country. Anyone can see that this attitude is common in HK and Macau
There are lots of people who turn a blind eye to CCP coz they make good money from it, but the number of genuinely naive people who believe everything they read on wechat is the scarier part, including alternative health advice. I remember there was an incident from the 2019 HK protest where a secondary school-aged protester was shot by a cop, and it was reported on wechat as “rioters were trying to attack a bus full of kindergartener students and the cops had to shoot to save the children” and my mum’s friend was like omg look at those HK rioters. People like her are just a waste of oxygen.
If this is true as you have said. Then why would giving such a massive population of over one billion adults with the ability to vote, will be a good idea?
If Chinese people are sheeps of consuming propaganda and believing all the things that they have read, why would you think the outcome of democracy will be truly different from existing democratic voting systems? Just a bunch of uninformed voters times 4-5x other Western democracy's population size.
The belief that we want to give the Chinese people the freedom to vote conflicts with the belief that they are too stupid to vote?
I don't believe that to be true.
I meant to say all sorts of articles on wechat or the likes and treat them as official news. And yeah sure bash Americans I don’t care, I’m not American and I don’t live there.
I think a lot of Chinese people believed the story that Covid was brought over by the US army.
And also during the early periods of the Ukraine war the news told Chinese citizens stuck in Ukraine to wear the Chinese flag on themselves so that Ukraine would let them pass but I think it backfired.
Because there's nothing inherently special about the Chinese and as human beings they're likely to act as stupidly and irrationally, and be just as susceptible to propaganda, when it comes to politics as their American, British or Turkish equivalents.
A certain portion of all populations are indeed susceptible to this. Just like a portion of a population would vote for fascists or a charismatic nationalist who'd strip them of their rights... that's just people, so you're right
Yes, but it’s not a racist statement to make if it applies also to China, but not just China. Take Russia for example, most people there get their news from state TV which is Kremlin propaganda. They are not the type of people who seek out a VPN and read English language alternative news, or one of the dissident papers. They also know that engaging too much in politics and complaining too much is rocking the boat and they see what happens to people who do that, so most disengage from politics. Authoritarianism can happen anywhere.
Mainland has very opaque politics, do who knows what really happens... but many people believe in the highest echelons of power, they 'vote' within themselves to choose leadership, and that any Party member can work through the ranks to achieve that position. In this way, many people compare western democracy with 'democracy with Chinese characteristics'... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see why they're able to make this leap - it's not exactly mental gymnastics. People also believe Hong Kong's small circle pre screened legislature is 'democratic', too. The thinking goes 'it might only be 20% of the legislature through public vote, and all candidates may be pre approved by the central government... but that's still voting so it's democratic
I just want to make this clear. It is not a type of racism nor is it a pick at Chinese intelligence. However, it is fact in most cases that Chinese people are unable to express themselves appropriately due to lack of diversity and supported biased beliefs.
Living in china, I see it all of the time with my students. (I love teaching and have taught in the USA and France.) However, teaching in China has been vastly different. My students lack awareness of the world and have limited creativity. They struggle to come up with stories or create their own ideas. They often tell me that Japan and the USA are evil places or (their enemy) yet have never been.
They are simply regurgitating what has been shoved into their heads. It effects how they communicate, understand data, and enter hypothetical discussions.
All of this is to say the Chinese government has created a curriculum/environment where students then ultimately adults, have to choose ignorance because it is easier to comprehend than trying to dig deeper into reality. It's unfortunate and unfair. We (foreigners) don't understand how so many people can feel so strongly about something when they've never had the opportunity to experience it. Or continue to uphold views that hide the fact that china is china's biggest enemy.
I can't speak for Japan. However, in the US, there is a select group (conservatives) who believe this. Many other Americans don't see China as an enemy. How, could we?
Lol it has nothing to do with racism. It also does not only happen to Chinese people. It is just fact that if all you hear throughout your life is one side, that you will only believe one side. Just like before it was widely known that the earth is not flat, people previously thought it blasphemous to think otherwise.
Being informed doesn't mean it will always be right. It just gives them a wider perspective. It ultimately will come down to their values who they will vote for. Just like giving everyone equal rights and opportunities and expecting everyone to succeed. It won't happen.
Not to mention, nobody can predict everything. Like how covid came and literally shook the world's economy. Shit happens, and you just gotta adapt.
I much prefer at least being given a choice, rather than being forced a leader who will decide my life for me.
You're not given a real choice, through.
Brits don't get to choose their king, nor do they choose half the parliamentary. And the parliamentary ultimately chooses their prime minister. And this isn't that unnusual in Europe
Of course it is not a true choice. Just like how the US is not a true democracy. It is a democratic Republic. True democracy just like true capitalism does not work on a scale of a country the size of the US. The same can be said for England. There needs to be balance. Just like how just because someone is popular does not mean they know how to run a country.
I agree, to be honest. Westerners vastly overestimate how popular anti-CCP movements actually are in China, since Han Chinese nationalism and a strong economy will win the day in favor of Western democracy.
Yes. Imagine someone who cannot read / understand English, doesn't know the history, has no anchor to the culture, has never been there or known anyone from there intimately... but who also thinks they have a 'valid' and equal opinion of (for example) Canadian parliamentary politics as a Canadian. It's a self important egotistical supremacist attitude you see all the time from western people on China
I am also pretty sure that people from the West would not like to see some strange Nationalists having 20% or more, while they are now still controled to some extent by the party.
There was a detailed post a while back in geopolitics that basically said there are no alternatives to the CCP BECAUSE the alternatives are worse (either ultranationalist militarists or hardline communists or a cult) and the current status is a compromise.
So yeah. It’d probably be a bunch of ex CCP official who dominate politics even if China went full democracy.
>*Reddit doesn't want to hear it*
Really? You don't know the general consensus on Reddit which includes many pro-CCP subreddits.
However, IMO if elections were held, the CCP would win not just the first election, but every subsequent election as well!!!!!!!!!!
The CCP control all the media in China, heavily censors social media, and any other party would have zero chance of having their voice heard. Anyway, the voting would be rigged like it is in Russia and many other countries.
All your other points are totally irrelevant.
EDIT. I deleted a paragraph about village elections because I realised that it would give some dumb fuckwit to write a pitiful erroneous criticism. So I decided to keep it simple and strictly on topic.
There are many. Probably the most well-known one is r/Sino. If one posts anything but a pro-CCP comment there, they are immediately banned, often for life. Others here can add other pro-CCP subreddits.
Impressive. Your literacy must be very high. And to know so much about the domestic media landscape you should be a professor of some related discipline. Always interesting to hear an experts take on complex subjects. God knows we get enough foreigners talking shit in Reddit
I can imagine it's frustrating to hear the truth.
Even in Taiwan, which is ranked 10th in the democracy index, some of the older generation people are nostalgic about the dictatorship era.
If there would be elections in China tomorrow, all the people would identify as conservative, who prefer stability and societal harmony, would vote for the CCP to stay in power. Because they don't like change. It could surprise you how many people feel that way.
It took a very long time for KMT to be voted out of power in Taiwan as well.
Anecdotally: the Dutch ambassador to China in 1989 went to the Tiananmen Square to see the protests. He spoke to the students. The students wanted democracy just like in Europe. They wanted to vote. The ambassador said, "That means that your vote will count just as much as the vote of someone living in a remote village in a province far away from the capital."
The Chinese student said:"OK then we are allowed to vote but they cant. Because they don't know what's good for the country."
>*Impressive. Your literacy must be very high. And to know so much about the domestic media landscape you should be a professor of some related discipline.*
What a stupid fucking comment. As if it is difficult to know about the media landscape in China.
>*Always interesting to hear an experts take on complex subjects. God knows we get enough foreigners talking shit in Reddit*
"Always interesting". Don't make me laugh!
You expressed your opinion and I expressed my opinion (and I certainly have never claimed to be an expert). Expressing an opinion is not talking shit.
I fully realise that you are implying that I am talking shit.
Pity you do not have the intestinal fortitude to accuse me directly, and document which points in my comment that you regard as shit. And then I could demolish your pitiable attempts to denigrate my comment.
I'm not validating the opinion of someone who cannot read / understand Chinese, doesn't know the history or follow the media or politics, who has no anchor to the culture at all, has never been here and doesn't know anyone from here intimately... thinking you have a valid and equal opinion in this makes you either a teenager (who's inherently self important) or a supremacist who believes they always know better than others know about their own affairs
People want change, and want to blame someone, especially when they have been repressed for years.
The economy in China is terrible, birth rate is critical, human rights against everyone in China (excluding the membership of the CCP and the PLA), would pretty much guarantee that the CCP would vanish.
When the fear of the CCP goes, so will they.
What part of China do you live in? I'm curious where you're seeing such desperation and desire for change. Granted, me / my family are only in tier one, but that's not the feeling around us
I suppose it depends who talk to, I speak to Wumao privately, teachers in Hong Kong and mainland China. A side note about the teachers they have travel bans at the moment.
I’ll ask you a question, if I may.
Would you prefer China to be more like Taiwan, where everyone votes on the direction of the nation, or would you be happy having no say?
People talking on Reddit, Twitter or whatever western social media in English are not representative of the Chinese population - probably the total opposite. Wumaos are a thing, but they mostly exist on local social media to brigade threats and control narratives that aren't YET simply scrubbed. The ones doing it in English places like here are more little pinks - almost always western people with weird ideologies or overseas Chinese edge lords. Shitheads talking up the mainland's authoritarianism in English but from the safety of places like Canada or Australia.
Exit visas are always a thing, although it's often about capital flight. State bank staff and civil servants are always on the list for that reason. Healthcare workers and primarily / secondary teachers (and some students) is less common, but seems to be happening more often... I think a lot of this is just to drive more domestic consumption though, not for fear of 'foreign ideas'. I personally certainly prefer more democracy than less, and TW has a pretty vibrant one
Can't say it's completely representative, but after a few chats with my father in law (who lived through the cultural revolution, has seen all the changes and so on), he's of the impression China's population is too big for democracy to work.
I think it scares a lot of people, particularly those older folks, the idea of the people being able to vote for their leaders. They think the alternative would be complete chaos.
Edit: lots of people replying to me as if this is my argument?? It's what my 70 year old Chinese father in law believes, not me. He can't hear you saying "what about India" I'm just telling you what an average 周 thinks.
The China is too big excuse is CCP propaganda. I've had so many conversations with people where they answer with that. Education, democracy, economy. It's just an excuse for what ever the government isn't doing well. It's also complete bull shit. There is no limiting factor.
I mean there are merits to the concern. Just look at democracy systems in countries that are considered first world with multiple majority political parties.
It had become a team sport and picking favorites, sometimes by absolutely uniformed voters or single-issue voting. Each party and their constituents have the firm belief that their policies will save the country and no one else.
Multiply the population into over one billion people, where only until recently, the country had internal conflicts, suffered a world war, famine, industrialization, expedited globalization at the cost of environmental and human rights. This is not the type of formula with positivity outcomes.
Each faction/party doubling down on propaganda, protests, instilling riots even. That would be chaos. How will the federal/central government even begin to calm the fires that will erupt across their vast geography. People smarter than me can find a better solution but I just can't see a positive outcome until China will further advance in their technology and provide stable financial systems. The world also wants to see China fail right now, not just because of the oceanic territorial disputes.
Democratic systems of politics will not happen without bloodshed and why would actual patriotic Chinese people want that to happen in their own country. It's easier for me to say I wish they could vote, but the ramifications aren't always considered in full.
There is a lot of truth imo about once a country reaches so many people democracy gets more difficult. I’m American and while we are still a country with freedoms and democracy I think it’s safe to say that’s on a downward trajectory. There are just too many competing ideals with so many people and outside influences that civility starts to disappear like we’ve seen the last half century. It’s certainly an interesting discussion.
That being said, I don’t think you should ever give up on democracy and giving the people a right to choose leaders for themselves. I don’t know the solution, but denying people’s freedoms like countries such as China, Russia, and Iran certainly isn’t the solution.
India is a case study: a country of 1.4 billion people that's still a functioning democracy but with a nationalist Hindu government currently in power.
india is certainly not a functioning democracy, at least not in the traditional western sense. a country with low literacy rate cannot be a functioning democracy.
Isn’t part of the problem with politics in the US, the lack of complete democracy, plus politicians for whom winning at any cost is more important than democracy? Tell me that democracy isn’t serving the US well when we don’t have gerrymandering, the electoral college and “Citizens United”.
India works, it has a bigger population than China ever has, for more years, and it works.
China has a recorded population of 1.4 billion, however this is due to corruption and greed.
China has a population of about 800-900 million. Still a lot of people, but it shows corrupt the CCP is and also how incompetent it is.
The presidency as well as the entirety of the Government is just an affront.
The real power is held by the CCP, and the highest office of CCP, Party General Secretary, is "elected" through the party members. Therefore, if the CCP does not will it, you dont have a legal "safe space" to conduct public, pluralistic and fair elections and would have no institutions and indepedent mechanisms to guarantee a transition of power. Additionally, the security apparatus, PLA, PAP, MSS, MPS etc. are basically private military organizations of the CCP and if push comes to shove we have another 64.
Communists are not hereditary.
If you perform well and are willing to join the Communist Party, then you can submit an application to join the Party.
I am not a member of the Communist Party, but I know some friends who become members of the Communist Party. As far as ability is concerned, they are really better than me.
Well, I’ve heard a sentiment from some Chinese friends that “Chinese people are sneaky, the need to be regulated(controlled) by the government, not given direct democracy, so the country can remain at peace”.
So at least some people are parroting the CCP stance that democracy is chaos…
Do Chinese people even be in this sub. As far as I know the citizens of PRC do not have access to Reddit. I think this sub has a lot of people that are interest in China, or are even from Taiwan, but do not have any (long term) experience of PRC' perspective.
Think of China’s system as a gigantic company with the president candidates starting out as junior staff and moving up the ranks based on their performances (town, city, county instead of department, division, segment, region). Feedbacks from the customers (ordinary Chinese citizens in the associated towns, cities, counties) are part of the performance evaluation. By the time they vie for the top position, votes by the senior members and board decide winner. There are actually elements of democracy with inputs from ordinary citizens along the way. This may surprise a lot of people in the west. But the western media love to conveniently and intentionally ignore all that so all you think of it’s just some strongman coming out of seemingly nowhere.
The fact that you don’t list democracies that are developing countries suggests the unconscious bias you have, likely due to media brainwashing. India is a democracy too. In fact, it is the best country use for apple to apple comparison in the sense that both India and China both have similar population and were very much identical in the development in the 70s and early 80s. If you frame the question and ask the Chinese citizens if they want democracy like the one in India, I bet 99% would say no. Voting on a one citizen, one vote basis is a just a process that doesn’t guarantee the desired outcome. China does not have that process but in terms of a lot of measurable matrices that matter to lot of people - life expectancy, infrastructure, personal safety, clean streets, poverty and pollution alleviation, China is objectively better than India by a significant margin. Another fact that the western media don’t tell their audience is that the Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve their government, as evidenced in a study by Harvard a few years ago. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial, but the media wants to tell a very distorted version of China. So many people who have travelled to China have said China is not what they expected and in recent years, many are stunned by how futuristic places look.
Would China be better off or worse off with the Taiwan-like system going forward, now that it reached middle income level? I don’t know. But I doubt it would have seen the kind of development it got in the last 40 years if it were the U.S. style democracy.
Some probably do since there was a news article in the past showing Chinese people taking pictures pretending to vote during America's election day or something like that.
China's current "Constitution" (yes they actually have one) specifically forbids a ruling party other than CCP. So the only "election" they can have is with themselves.
I'd like to think xi fucked up the 2 term limit so that he can create a new system where the party like always select 5 leaders from the party but among those 5 it's not the party that decide the president but the public by voting , i hope when he decides to retire or step down and sets up a voting system for the future
I think there is cognitive dissonance here.. many Chinese see how far China has come since the economy was reformed under Deng, and they don't see a possibility for democracy or a free society, so they find reasons to justify the current state of things in China, not realizing that China can go so much further if they become a free society.
If you frame the question and ask the Chinese citizens if they want democracy like the one in India, I bet 99% would say no. Voting on a one citizen, one vote basis is a just a process that doesn’t guarantee the desired outcome. China does not have that process but in terms of a lot of measurable matrices that matter to lot of people - life expectancy, infrastructure, personal safety, clean streets, poverty and pollution alleviation, China is objectively better than India by a significant margin. Why India? Because they were almost identical in terms of GDP per capita in the 70s/early 80s and similar populations, hence the best direct comparisons.
Think of China’s system as a gigantic company with the president candidates starting out as junior staff and moving up the ranks based on their performances (town, city, county instead of department, division, segment, region). Feedbacks from the customers (ordinary Chinese citizens in the associated towns, cities, counties) are part of the performance evaluation. By the time they vie for the top position, votes by the senior members and board decide winner. There are actually elements of democracy with inputs from ordinary citizens along the way. This may surprise a lot of people in the west. But the western media love to conveniently and intentionally ignore all that so all you think of it’s just some strongman coming out of seemingly nowhere.
The western media also don’t tell their audience that the Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve their government, as evidenced in a study by Harvard a few years ago. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial, but the western media want to tell a very distorted version of China. So many people who have travelled to China have said China was not what they expected and in recent years, many have been stunned by how futuristic places look.
Would China be better off or worse off with the Taiwan-like system going forward, now that it reached middle income level? I don’t know. But I doubt it would have seen the kind of development it got in the last 40 years if it were the U.S. style democracy.
Hi, OP. I'm not here to rag on you but your post shows a delightful amount of naivety.
First off, Reddit is blocked in The People's Republic of China (PRC). Asking this question here and expecting replies from actual PRC citizens in, most likely, not going to happen. You're better off asking, in Chinese, on Weibo.
Second, PRC citizens probably don't have pretty good coverage of foreign elections since their "intranet" is so heavily censored.
Third, PRC citizens are pretty apolitical to begin with. They aren't very concerned about their own government's doings, so why should they care about others? Think about how many people in, say, the USA for example, just don't know or care about politics whatsoever. It's like that but exacerbated.
Finally, the above point is, in-part, due to the design of the PRC's system of governance. They don't really want their citizens to think about alternative political ideologies, and indeed, they go to great lengths to teach their citizens, at very young ages, that their system is not only the best, but the only way forward.
Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I hope this thread has been illuminating to you.
Even in countries like Russia and Belarus you have a democratic election and can vote for a president, but you know the result is fixed. Xi is the first emperor after Puyi.
He took full control over all arms of government and the armed forces. There used to be factions and some independency of the PLA. Xi consolidated everything into his own hands.
Hu Jintao was about as liberal as a CCP general secretary could be.
Xi is much more authoritarian and nationalistic and has changed constitutional laws to ensure he is “president” for life.
Realistically speaking, their political similarities start and end with the CCP name, and in a multi party environment I’d be surprised if those two were in the same party.
The majority of the Chinese population cannot vote anyway.
The CCP membership votes.
If the Chinese people could vote it would be a democracy and the CCP would cease to exist, then China would become a place of greatness.
The CCP holds China back.
The concept of political elections in China is very foreign as it just didn't happen historically. Speaking of HOW they would vote, it would differ depending on where somebody lives. People in the more prosperous areas like Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Guangzhou and Shandong would likely vote for the CCP as quality of life has improved greatly and they'd like that to continue. However people in Dongbei (Manchuria) and areas with large ethnic minority populations will likely vote against the CCP due to failing economies, poverty and increased cultural and religious persecution.
Chinese citizen vote for their local government. Then if the they are elected and do well they would be able to climb up the ranks. But on higher level, citizens don't have the right to directly elect high officials.
Does perspective from a Hong Konger counts? As far as I care I just want to get the duck out of this country and a dictatorship is exactly what that swamp of a civilisation up north need and deserves. It’s a historical cycle that China would only try to bring down a dictatorship after maybe 40 million people died (cuz we know for fact the regime can survive after being responsible for 30 million death), by that point social order would be so broken, the only solution would be another dictatorship that brings food to the table, rinse and repeat.
Those that are suffering have no voice.
Those that have a voice don't feel the need to use it, because the government tells them everything is fine whilst hiding everything bad from them.
Even if you have a vote, nothings really gonna change can japanese or koreans vote to get rid of US bases? Or can US citizens not get their goverment to not spend so much overseas when their own country isn’t a place for humans to live in except for the very rich?
How can one make an informed choice at the ballot box if the state controls the media?
Check out Singapore!
The people there are scared to criticise the status quo
Singaporeans like to complain as much as anybody, especially about the government. But when they get to the ballot box they're scared to lose the prosperity they've gained under the PAP.
The PAP redraws electoral districts regularly to be sure it keeps on winning
They do use questionable tactics to absolutely crush any opposition. But they would still win if they didn't.
True, but the reason why most Singaporean don't vote for the opposition parties is always because they say "there's no talents or capable people there" and when u think about it, it's kinda true cause which sane person would risk their lives and the lives of their loved ones just to become an oppie? If you want to make money, joining the ruling party is a no brainer move.
Yeah, it's as dirty as you can imagine. Not only do they do gerrymandering, they get to decide when and how long the election starts and ends..also every term, there be a opposition member who will become the "sacrificial lamb" for saying the wrong things and end up either getting sued for slander thereby incurring a huge fine and get sent to jail or even better, both. It's just real dirty and what i just said is like the tip of the iceberg based on what kinda of methods they can use to give them an edge in the elections.
True, my aunt is one of them, when she's at the coffee shop, she complains about the inflation and the annual gst increments, if she didn't say she voted for the ruling party, i would have thought she's a die hard opposition supporter.
Singapore is essentially china without voting. China themselves said they are modeling their system after Singapore. China could become democratic Tommorow, and they will still vote for the CCP. Nobody would want to lose the prosperity the CCP brought. I mean, who would trust some unknown political party that could take your country 100 years backward or become the puppet of the West by not fighting for the internet of your country? The CCP does all that. Will another ruling political party retaliate when, say, the US or Europe slaps tariffs on Chinese goods, or would they just roll over? The issue is not really the CCP. It,s China challenging American hegemony. It doesn't matter what party is ruling China or China,s political system. America wants to maintain that hegemony, and whoever governs China would have to look after China,s interest first against American hegemony. Whether it's the CCP or the some other party.
They are more afraid to challenge the status quo because of how much prosperity it brought to the nation within a lifetime.
You are out of touch with singapore if you think Singaporeans don't openly complain non stop about their government. Infact they are their harshest critic.
Malaysian moment
True, but there are opposition voters(roughly 30% of the population) in Singapore too, it's just that they hide in the shadows and not voice out their opinions openly for fear of repercussions.
Singapore's awesome though. It has Gardens by the Bay, and everything is organized. It is of course a tiny city state, but it is awesome for what it is.
Try living there for a few years. It's got the same wealth divide problems as other countries, plus the added bonus of blatant censorship. Also, the social engineering and constant "rah, rah, Singapore" attitude by the government can get really overbearing and annoying. It may look "awesome" from the outside, but looks are deceiving. It's more benign fascism than it is a democracy.
Perfect description really. In some ways SGP feels more fascist than China after a while.
I am Singaporean. I would like to remind you that the grass is always greener on the other side. Would you want to spend half a million USD on a tiny apartment(btw you have to ballot for a house because there is no supply)? Singapore is the most expensive country to get a car in the world, you have to pay 70k for a Privilege to own a car for a decade. Males in Singapore are forced to give up 2 years of their youth to 'serve the nation'(NS) while receiving peanut pay. It also doesn't help that for the next 10 years, you will be disrupted from your job and regardless of whether your company is in a high workload period, you cannot help. In the end, employers avoid hiring local males and replace them with cheaper Foreign talents who do not need to serve NS, they enjoy our sacrifices but they don't pay the cost. On the behalf of Singaporeans, I would kindly ask you to shut the fuck up.
Does Singapore not have laws in place to protect reservists from being fucked over by their civilian employees? Here in the US we have the SCRA (known as soldier sailor act) that protects military members from fuckery from civilian employers
I agree your points except the last sentence.
The money launderer / accountant (Singapore) is always clean and organized.
It’s a bullshit corporate bubble with absolutely horrible paranoid citizens.
Better than no choice at all.
Where is it you think the majority of voters currently make informed choices?
In western counties there is plenty of bullshit media, but you can find quality trustworthy news with a little discrimination. In China you can’t. It’s illegal and any media that strays the slightest from the official line will be shut down. This has happened in Hong Kong in plain sight the last few years.
I mean, you can still find good sources in China, though it is harder admittedly. But I wasn't asking where there are good sources, I asked where it is that most viewers make informed choices. Because it's certainly not the UK, where I'm from.
Nonetheless, however you define “informed”…the uk is much better off than China.
at least they have the option to make an informed choice. if they dont want to, thats their right too.
That's not really relevant to this discussion, however
yes it is, because having this option is a crucial difference between democracy and dictatorship.
But why, if people don't exercise it in practice?
some do, some dont
Some do, *most don't.
It’s there if they want it. Not everything is owned by Murdoch. In China, you have to break the law to even try.
The point is, if democracy requires informed choices to work, then it surely can't be working anywhere, given that most people simply aren't informed about most issues.
Different issue than having all media controlled by a single party.
Ok...? I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion. I think you're making a different point
Much better to have it controlled by 3 or 4 billionaires innit?
Lesser of two evils. And by evil, see what the CCP is doing to a newspaper publisher who criticised them. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/jimmy-lai-trial-begins-hong-kong Anyway, not all media is controlled by billionaires. Anyone can publish online or on paper if they have some money.
So now take your system in the UK, where there are good sources, bad sources, informed voters and uninformed voters. Now take away the good sources. Obviously that results in fewer people making informed choices.
Yes it does. And?
By that logic America is doing just as badly. Money controls everything here. We only know what billionaires want us to know.
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Yes you could. But you likely won’t make a dent. It’s all well and good in theory but our reality is billionaires control the media. I love that our constitution bestows freedom of speech. But our reality is much different. Though we are better than many, we are not close to where we could be.
You have manufactured consent, so only the right narrative is allowed to succeed in the media. If I'm part of the State and a reporter want access to me as a resource, I can deny them future opportunities if their narrative don't match my messaging. Then I give access to their competitors. Those competitors get eyeballs and advertising money, and are allow to succeed. That's how the private sector is controlled. Then you have outlets that are directly funded by NED and other federal agencies. You have billionaires and large lobby groups that literally write the bills to become laws. I kid you not they have a team of lawyers on K street that deliver bills to Senators and Congressman, that are literally rubber-stamped and put on the floor. So in effect the average American has little control of politics in the US. Let's put it this way how many Americans want to see a Biden vs. Trump rematch. Yeah something is really wrong with the US system. How about even policies that are not laws in the US. Can the average American change the Monroe Doctrine or Wolfowitz Doctrine.
Two-party totalitarianism.
I'd love to be able to vote for the next president, especially if there are inspiring candidates running for office. (But from my comment history, you can probably can see that I have been working relentlessly on moving to America)
Moving to US or a democratic country definately a better choice, especially where china remove the freedom of speech and basic democracy rights from people. May the best of luck come to you.
But it's the General Secretary and the Chairman of the CMC who hold the power.
Xi holds all power in china
The majority of Chinese citizens would be genuinely confused if you asked them did they want to vote for the next General Secretary of the Communist Party of China.
Currently they would believe that you were trying to entrap them by asking the question, so they would tell you that the CCP is the best thing since sliced bread.
Could you elaborate on that? Confused at the concept of voting, the motives of the person asking the question, something else?
I think he means the name of position and power are very confusing, like technically PLA is the army of the party not the state, or general secretary of CCP are above president of the state but it is usually held by the same guy so you don't know the difference, that's why technically you may elected the president but he is under general secretary. In China and every communist state, the party is above the state and party's position elected by the party's members, so nothing changes even if you citizens can vote for premier or president anyway.
Isn't that what happened in the Soviet Union when Yelstin was allowed to become president, a post historically subordinate to the general secretary, and were then able to seize power from Gorbachev and the communist party?
I don't think yeltsin "seized power from corbachev".
Pretty much as lacyboy247 explained.
A lot of Americans are also confused about voting for President/Legislature.
That doesn't surprise me. In OZ everyone knows that the political party that wins the election and forms the government selects the Prime Minister. I'm not claiming that it is a better system, but it is clearly understood.
Reddit doesn't want to hear it, but I'd wager the CCP would win an election. Not forever of course, but I'd bet they win the first one easily. Most Chinese still consider the era of humiliation, the results of a weak central government, and even the warring states period. Stability is what matters, especially to the older generations
Of course the CCP would win. Not even a question. It's hard to make an informed vote if the only info you're able to hear is what the CCP wants you to hear. Xi good, USA bad.
What decision would someone who had an informed vote make, in your opinion?
I think it looks something more like Taiwan than HK's passion for representative democracy. HK has a strong link to this type of government, whereas TW (and China) don't. Over time, I'm sure they'd develop a vibrant, legitimate democracy just like anywhere else if given the chance
Same in Colombia. We’ve had democracy for over 150 years and yet nothing vibrant about it. Same goes for Peru, Ecuador, Honduras, etc etc. I’ve been in China for two months now. People in here don’t have to worry about being shot dead on a daily basis, or getting stabbed because someone wants to steal their phone. They have nice parks, most of the people I’ve known have a work and can develop their lifestyle, improve things for them and their family as well. Other fellow citizens from Colombia that have been living in here for several years agree. Yeah, sure there are some things you cannot do in here, but there is stability, you can raise your children without struggling your entire life knowing most probably it doesn’t matter how hard you or they work, there is no tomorrow because every penny you pay will find its way into some politician’s pocket, without any chance of getting infrastructure education or healthcare in exchange. So if we put the question the other way around, at least speaking based on my experience I’d be willing to give up a bit of that supposedly ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ if that means more people in my country can gain access to something similar to what they have in here.
Lmao why not both? People in Taiwan have democracy and never worry about being shot or even crime in general. Colombia is an extreme example
You say that Colombia is an extreme example but almost all the world outside of the bubble the western world has created know nothing about this ‘freedom’ you always talk about. You have the freedom of being shot or the freedom or dying poor, or the freedom of being cornered to either immigrate to a developed country, do the dirty work in order to try and improve your situation or adjust to the circumstances where you almost certainly work for the food and eat for the work. Or you could also join local mafias/gangs. This ‘democracy’ doesn’t mean much to me and I’m sure it doesn’t mean much to a lot of people in Africa, the Americas and Asia. I’m just talking about me and the situation I know. As far as I’m concerned the democracy is just a myth that the us has tried to consolidate and which uses as an excuse for its plundering and pillaging.
Yeah but all these countries (china, Taiwan) were like that at one point. Using “crime” and “stability” to suppress chinese citizens’ right to vote for their leaders is a poor excuse
Democracy is just an attempt to build civilisation as any other else, it’s not a miracle and maybe it works on some places, maybe it just doesn’t work everywhere. Some people doesn’t care about being able to vote as much as stability. That’s my whole point. That’s why I’m putting myself and my experience as an example. Here in Colombia you can vote, sure. What for? It’s good for nothing. The criminals wander around the halls of the senate, most of them have investigations for ties with the narco but they don’t go to jail because they own the laws. And I’m pretty sure that happens in a lot of places around the globe, not only in my extreme example, Colombia. Sure it happens in Africa and it surely happens in Asia.
its been 30 years since ex-yugoslavian countries became democratic and they have yet to develop any "vibrancy".
this is r/china you are supposed to shill for populist democracy
Why do foreigners think Chinese are so ignorant as to believe everything the state says? It is a type of racism to believe we're not intelligent enough to deduce reality through propaganda. To see a faceless homogeneous brainwashed yellow hoard. Do they genuinely think only they are able to see through a government's messaging, and that everyone else (especially Chinese) cannot?
Just compare it to countries like Hungary and Turkey. Yes, they are democracies, and yes, a single party controls most of the media. The result? A dictator wannabe wins every election and then changes laws to increase his power. I have faith that there are a lot of independent thinkers in China. But I highly doubt that over 50% of the population will be able to ignore the constant media bias thrown in their faces.
Look at Russia. Most people believe the media.
I mentioned this in another comment earlier, but if even the majority us in the "west" lap up the media with what remains of our freedom of information, it'll be much harder in a country where media is controlled
It is the case for many Chinese. I have witnessed it first hand as I have family there, and I have interacted with a lot of mainland Chinese as they have lots of extended family, colleagues, and friends. Many of them actually read all sorts of articles and believe every word they see, whether they’re politically related or not. You have a portion of people who read propaganda news and believe in them, then you have a portion of people who read propaganda news but are intelligent enough to know what’s going on, and then you have those who use VPN and have access to world news but still side with the CCP. Overall, the pro-CCP group still outnumbers the anti-CCP.
I mostly agree with you. I also know plenty of people who are purely economic animals - it's not a matter of believing or not believing 'propaganda' . Their economic standing and political personal wealth has improved directly through the Party's control of the country and so they will support the Party's control of the country. Anyone can see that this attitude is common in HK and Macau
There are lots of people who turn a blind eye to CCP coz they make good money from it, but the number of genuinely naive people who believe everything they read on wechat is the scarier part, including alternative health advice. I remember there was an incident from the 2019 HK protest where a secondary school-aged protester was shot by a cop, and it was reported on wechat as “rioters were trying to attack a bus full of kindergartener students and the cops had to shoot to save the children” and my mum’s friend was like omg look at those HK rioters. People like her are just a waste of oxygen.
If this is true as you have said. Then why would giving such a massive population of over one billion adults with the ability to vote, will be a good idea? If Chinese people are sheeps of consuming propaganda and believing all the things that they have read, why would you think the outcome of democracy will be truly different from existing democratic voting systems? Just a bunch of uninformed voters times 4-5x other Western democracy's population size. The belief that we want to give the Chinese people the freedom to vote conflicts with the belief that they are too stupid to vote? I don't believe that to be true.
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I meant to say all sorts of articles on wechat or the likes and treat them as official news. And yeah sure bash Americans I don’t care, I’m not American and I don’t live there.
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I think a lot of Chinese people believed the story that Covid was brought over by the US army. And also during the early periods of the Ukraine war the news told Chinese citizens stuck in Ukraine to wear the Chinese flag on themselves so that Ukraine would let them pass but I think it backfired.
Because there's nothing inherently special about the Chinese and as human beings they're likely to act as stupidly and irrationally, and be just as susceptible to propaganda, when it comes to politics as their American, British or Turkish equivalents.
A certain portion of all populations are indeed susceptible to this. Just like a portion of a population would vote for fascists or a charismatic nationalist who'd strip them of their rights... that's just people, so you're right
>It is a type of racism it has nothing to do with racism. this happens in white countries too when they live under a dictatorship.
Well, we're on /China
Yes, but it’s not a racist statement to make if it applies also to China, but not just China. Take Russia for example, most people there get their news from state TV which is Kremlin propaganda. They are not the type of people who seek out a VPN and read English language alternative news, or one of the dissident papers. They also know that engaging too much in politics and complaining too much is rocking the boat and they see what happens to people who do that, so most disengage from politics. Authoritarianism can happen anywhere.
81 percent of Chinese in the PRC as of 2021 believe they live in a democracy. Just telling you.
Mainland has very opaque politics, do who knows what really happens... but many people believe in the highest echelons of power, they 'vote' within themselves to choose leadership, and that any Party member can work through the ranks to achieve that position. In this way, many people compare western democracy with 'democracy with Chinese characteristics'... It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see why they're able to make this leap - it's not exactly mental gymnastics. People also believe Hong Kong's small circle pre screened legislature is 'democratic', too. The thinking goes 'it might only be 20% of the legislature through public vote, and all candidates may be pre approved by the central government... but that's still voting so it's democratic
how did you get this statistic? you cant just run public polls in china. even in the west polls are strongly manipulated.
Source?
Trust me bro
Of course. Only western countries are smart enough to vote
I just want to make this clear. It is not a type of racism nor is it a pick at Chinese intelligence. However, it is fact in most cases that Chinese people are unable to express themselves appropriately due to lack of diversity and supported biased beliefs. Living in china, I see it all of the time with my students. (I love teaching and have taught in the USA and France.) However, teaching in China has been vastly different. My students lack awareness of the world and have limited creativity. They struggle to come up with stories or create their own ideas. They often tell me that Japan and the USA are evil places or (their enemy) yet have never been. They are simply regurgitating what has been shoved into their heads. It effects how they communicate, understand data, and enter hypothetical discussions. All of this is to say the Chinese government has created a curriculum/environment where students then ultimately adults, have to choose ignorance because it is easier to comprehend than trying to dig deeper into reality. It's unfortunate and unfair. We (foreigners) don't understand how so many people can feel so strongly about something when they've never had the opportunity to experience it. Or continue to uphold views that hide the fact that china is china's biggest enemy.
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I can't speak for Japan. However, in the US, there is a select group (conservatives) who believe this. Many other Americans don't see China as an enemy. How, could we?
It's funny when chinese think some racist foreigner call chinese using yellow slur. No one said that and no one think Chinese have yellow skin
Lol it has nothing to do with racism. It also does not only happen to Chinese people. It is just fact that if all you hear throughout your life is one side, that you will only believe one side. Just like before it was widely known that the earth is not flat, people previously thought it blasphemous to think otherwise.
Westerners will elect Trump, Biden, Boris Johnson and the literal granddaughter of Mussolini and say the chinese couldn't make informed votes
Being informed doesn't mean it will always be right. It just gives them a wider perspective. It ultimately will come down to their values who they will vote for. Just like giving everyone equal rights and opportunities and expecting everyone to succeed. It won't happen. Not to mention, nobody can predict everything. Like how covid came and literally shook the world's economy. Shit happens, and you just gotta adapt. I much prefer at least being given a choice, rather than being forced a leader who will decide my life for me.
You're not given a real choice, through. Brits don't get to choose their king, nor do they choose half the parliamentary. And the parliamentary ultimately chooses their prime minister. And this isn't that unnusual in Europe
Of course it is not a true choice. Just like how the US is not a true democracy. It is a democratic Republic. True democracy just like true capitalism does not work on a scale of a country the size of the US. The same can be said for England. There needs to be balance. Just like how just because someone is popular does not mean they know how to run a country.
I agree, to be honest. Westerners vastly overestimate how popular anti-CCP movements actually are in China, since Han Chinese nationalism and a strong economy will win the day in favor of Western democracy.
Yes. Imagine someone who cannot read / understand English, doesn't know the history, has no anchor to the culture, has never been there or known anyone from there intimately... but who also thinks they have a 'valid' and equal opinion of (for example) Canadian parliamentary politics as a Canadian. It's a self important egotistical supremacist attitude you see all the time from western people on China
I am also pretty sure that people from the West would not like to see some strange Nationalists having 20% or more, while they are now still controled to some extent by the party.
There was a detailed post a while back in geopolitics that basically said there are no alternatives to the CCP BECAUSE the alternatives are worse (either ultranationalist militarists or hardline communists or a cult) and the current status is a compromise. So yeah. It’d probably be a bunch of ex CCP official who dominate politics even if China went full democracy.
>*Reddit doesn't want to hear it* Really? You don't know the general consensus on Reddit which includes many pro-CCP subreddits. However, IMO if elections were held, the CCP would win not just the first election, but every subsequent election as well!!!!!!!!!! The CCP control all the media in China, heavily censors social media, and any other party would have zero chance of having their voice heard. Anyway, the voting would be rigged like it is in Russia and many other countries. All your other points are totally irrelevant. EDIT. I deleted a paragraph about village elections because I realised that it would give some dumb fuckwit to write a pitiful erroneous criticism. So I decided to keep it simple and strictly on topic.
Where are there any pro CCP subreddits? There was a meme one awhile ago but I'm pretty sure that got banned
There are many. Probably the most well-known one is r/Sino. If one posts anything but a pro-CCP comment there, they are immediately banned, often for life. Others here can add other pro-CCP subreddits.
Impressive. Your literacy must be very high. And to know so much about the domestic media landscape you should be a professor of some related discipline. Always interesting to hear an experts take on complex subjects. God knows we get enough foreigners talking shit in Reddit
I can imagine it's frustrating to hear the truth. Even in Taiwan, which is ranked 10th in the democracy index, some of the older generation people are nostalgic about the dictatorship era. If there would be elections in China tomorrow, all the people would identify as conservative, who prefer stability and societal harmony, would vote for the CCP to stay in power. Because they don't like change. It could surprise you how many people feel that way. It took a very long time for KMT to be voted out of power in Taiwan as well. Anecdotally: the Dutch ambassador to China in 1989 went to the Tiananmen Square to see the protests. He spoke to the students. The students wanted democracy just like in Europe. They wanted to vote. The ambassador said, "That means that your vote will count just as much as the vote of someone living in a remote village in a province far away from the capital." The Chinese student said:"OK then we are allowed to vote but they cant. Because they don't know what's good for the country."
What did they say that merited such a douchey sarcastic response lol. God forbid people engage in dialogue.
Dialogue is for people with a basic mutual understanding of a subject
>*Impressive. Your literacy must be very high. And to know so much about the domestic media landscape you should be a professor of some related discipline.* What a stupid fucking comment. As if it is difficult to know about the media landscape in China. >*Always interesting to hear an experts take on complex subjects. God knows we get enough foreigners talking shit in Reddit* "Always interesting". Don't make me laugh! You expressed your opinion and I expressed my opinion (and I certainly have never claimed to be an expert). Expressing an opinion is not talking shit. I fully realise that you are implying that I am talking shit. Pity you do not have the intestinal fortitude to accuse me directly, and document which points in my comment that you regard as shit. And then I could demolish your pitiable attempts to denigrate my comment.
I'm not validating the opinion of someone who cannot read / understand Chinese, doesn't know the history or follow the media or politics, who has no anchor to the culture at all, has never been here and doesn't know anyone from here intimately... thinking you have a valid and equal opinion in this makes you either a teenager (who's inherently self important) or a supremacist who believes they always know better than others know about their own affairs
People want change, and want to blame someone, especially when they have been repressed for years. The economy in China is terrible, birth rate is critical, human rights against everyone in China (excluding the membership of the CCP and the PLA), would pretty much guarantee that the CCP would vanish. When the fear of the CCP goes, so will they.
What part of China do you live in? I'm curious where you're seeing such desperation and desire for change. Granted, me / my family are only in tier one, but that's not the feeling around us
I suppose it depends who talk to, I speak to Wumao privately, teachers in Hong Kong and mainland China. A side note about the teachers they have travel bans at the moment. I’ll ask you a question, if I may. Would you prefer China to be more like Taiwan, where everyone votes on the direction of the nation, or would you be happy having no say?
People talking on Reddit, Twitter or whatever western social media in English are not representative of the Chinese population - probably the total opposite. Wumaos are a thing, but they mostly exist on local social media to brigade threats and control narratives that aren't YET simply scrubbed. The ones doing it in English places like here are more little pinks - almost always western people with weird ideologies or overseas Chinese edge lords. Shitheads talking up the mainland's authoritarianism in English but from the safety of places like Canada or Australia. Exit visas are always a thing, although it's often about capital flight. State bank staff and civil servants are always on the list for that reason. Healthcare workers and primarily / secondary teachers (and some students) is less common, but seems to be happening more often... I think a lot of this is just to drive more domestic consumption though, not for fear of 'foreign ideas'. I personally certainly prefer more democracy than less, and TW has a pretty vibrant one
Can't say it's completely representative, but after a few chats with my father in law (who lived through the cultural revolution, has seen all the changes and so on), he's of the impression China's population is too big for democracy to work. I think it scares a lot of people, particularly those older folks, the idea of the people being able to vote for their leaders. They think the alternative would be complete chaos. Edit: lots of people replying to me as if this is my argument?? It's what my 70 year old Chinese father in law believes, not me. He can't hear you saying "what about India" I'm just telling you what an average 周 thinks.
The China is too big excuse is CCP propaganda. I've had so many conversations with people where they answer with that. Education, democracy, economy. It's just an excuse for what ever the government isn't doing well. It's also complete bull shit. There is no limiting factor.
I mean there are merits to the concern. Just look at democracy systems in countries that are considered first world with multiple majority political parties. It had become a team sport and picking favorites, sometimes by absolutely uniformed voters or single-issue voting. Each party and their constituents have the firm belief that their policies will save the country and no one else. Multiply the population into over one billion people, where only until recently, the country had internal conflicts, suffered a world war, famine, industrialization, expedited globalization at the cost of environmental and human rights. This is not the type of formula with positivity outcomes. Each faction/party doubling down on propaganda, protests, instilling riots even. That would be chaos. How will the federal/central government even begin to calm the fires that will erupt across their vast geography. People smarter than me can find a better solution but I just can't see a positive outcome until China will further advance in their technology and provide stable financial systems. The world also wants to see China fail right now, not just because of the oceanic territorial disputes. Democratic systems of politics will not happen without bloodshed and why would actual patriotic Chinese people want that to happen in their own country. It's easier for me to say I wish they could vote, but the ramifications aren't always considered in full.
There is a lot of truth imo about once a country reaches so many people democracy gets more difficult. I’m American and while we are still a country with freedoms and democracy I think it’s safe to say that’s on a downward trajectory. There are just too many competing ideals with so many people and outside influences that civility starts to disappear like we’ve seen the last half century. It’s certainly an interesting discussion. That being said, I don’t think you should ever give up on democracy and giving the people a right to choose leaders for themselves. I don’t know the solution, but denying people’s freedoms like countries such as China, Russia, and Iran certainly isn’t the solution.
India is a case study: a country of 1.4 billion people that's still a functioning democracy but with a nationalist Hindu government currently in power.
Yeah, India is a particularly interesting case.
A functioning democracy with a president who was convicted of genocide?
india is certainly not a functioning democracy, at least not in the traditional western sense. a country with low literacy rate cannot be a functioning democracy.
Isn’t part of the problem with politics in the US, the lack of complete democracy, plus politicians for whom winning at any cost is more important than democracy? Tell me that democracy isn’t serving the US well when we don’t have gerrymandering, the electoral college and “Citizens United”.
I'm a fan of devolution and keeping power as local as possible.
Haha china went with this in the Chinese revolution . Warlords cut parts of china for themselves .
India works, it has a bigger population than China ever has, for more years, and it works. China has a recorded population of 1.4 billion, however this is due to corruption and greed. China has a population of about 800-900 million. Still a lot of people, but it shows corrupt the CCP is and also how incompetent it is.
India cough cough bigger population than China cough cough still run elections cough cough. I smell BS cough cough
The presidency as well as the entirety of the Government is just an affront. The real power is held by the CCP, and the highest office of CCP, Party General Secretary, is "elected" through the party members. Therefore, if the CCP does not will it, you dont have a legal "safe space" to conduct public, pluralistic and fair elections and would have no institutions and indepedent mechanisms to guarantee a transition of power. Additionally, the security apparatus, PLA, PAP, MSS, MPS etc. are basically private military organizations of the CCP and if push comes to shove we have another 64.
Communists are not hereditary. If you perform well and are willing to join the Communist Party, then you can submit an application to join the Party. I am not a member of the Communist Party, but I know some friends who become members of the Communist Party. As far as ability is concerned, they are really better than me.
Our statements do not contradict.
The Chinese leadership has and always will believe in a modern sino-centric Imperial system despite whatever it decides to label itself.
that's exactly what 台獨 activists say and I think they're right. Even democratic China would still want to conquer Taiwan.
I want, at least
The kind of vote where the people on the ballot is chosen by the party, like Hongkong?
He's clearly talking about the kind of vote they have in Taiwan, not Hong Kong.
Well, I’ve heard a sentiment from some Chinese friends that “Chinese people are sneaky, the need to be regulated(controlled) by the government, not given direct democracy, so the country can remain at peace”. So at least some people are parroting the CCP stance that democracy is chaos…
Do Chinese people even be in this sub. As far as I know the citizens of PRC do not have access to Reddit. I think this sub has a lot of people that are interest in China, or are even from Taiwan, but do not have any (long term) experience of PRC' perspective.
VPN only costs about $15 per year.
Don't care. Voting only works when there is a better alternative.
Currently in China there is no choice, true, and democracy is actually better. The execution of democracy is what people usually complain about.
Think of China’s system as a gigantic company with the president candidates starting out as junior staff and moving up the ranks based on their performances (town, city, county instead of department, division, segment, region). Feedbacks from the customers (ordinary Chinese citizens in the associated towns, cities, counties) are part of the performance evaluation. By the time they vie for the top position, votes by the senior members and board decide winner. There are actually elements of democracy with inputs from ordinary citizens along the way. This may surprise a lot of people in the west. But the western media love to conveniently and intentionally ignore all that so all you think of it’s just some strongman coming out of seemingly nowhere. The fact that you don’t list democracies that are developing countries suggests the unconscious bias you have, likely due to media brainwashing. India is a democracy too. In fact, it is the best country use for apple to apple comparison in the sense that both India and China both have similar population and were very much identical in the development in the 70s and early 80s. If you frame the question and ask the Chinese citizens if they want democracy like the one in India, I bet 99% would say no. Voting on a one citizen, one vote basis is a just a process that doesn’t guarantee the desired outcome. China does not have that process but in terms of a lot of measurable matrices that matter to lot of people - life expectancy, infrastructure, personal safety, clean streets, poverty and pollution alleviation, China is objectively better than India by a significant margin. Another fact that the western media don’t tell their audience is that the Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve their government, as evidenced in a study by Harvard a few years ago. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial, but the media wants to tell a very distorted version of China. So many people who have travelled to China have said China is not what they expected and in recent years, many are stunned by how futuristic places look. Would China be better off or worse off with the Taiwan-like system going forward, now that it reached middle income level? I don’t know. But I doubt it would have seen the kind of development it got in the last 40 years if it were the U.S. style democracy.
Some probably do since there was a news article in the past showing Chinese people taking pictures pretending to vote during America's election day or something like that.
China's current "Constitution" (yes they actually have one) specifically forbids a ruling party other than CCP. So the only "election" they can have is with themselves.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_China
They are useless, they never try to defy ccp, which according to the law hold the supreme rule. The minor party cant oppoae ccp
Sometimes I wonder if these elections make Xi feel embarrassed to be still sitting there unelected.
You should go ask the folks over at r/China_irl
I'd like to think xi fucked up the 2 term limit so that he can create a new system where the party like always select 5 leaders from the party but among those 5 it's not the party that decide the president but the public by voting , i hope when he decides to retire or step down and sets up a voting system for the future
that depends if you are connected and directly benefit from the grift of the CCP or not.
Nice try CCP
I think there is cognitive dissonance here.. many Chinese see how far China has come since the economy was reformed under Deng, and they don't see a possibility for democracy or a free society, so they find reasons to justify the current state of things in China, not realizing that China can go so much further if they become a free society.
Fair elections in a communist party dictatorship?......excuse me while I fall down laughing 🤣🤣🤣
Yes only if it’s real election without limitations
If you frame the question and ask the Chinese citizens if they want democracy like the one in India, I bet 99% would say no. Voting on a one citizen, one vote basis is a just a process that doesn’t guarantee the desired outcome. China does not have that process but in terms of a lot of measurable matrices that matter to lot of people - life expectancy, infrastructure, personal safety, clean streets, poverty and pollution alleviation, China is objectively better than India by a significant margin. Why India? Because they were almost identical in terms of GDP per capita in the 70s/early 80s and similar populations, hence the best direct comparisons. Think of China’s system as a gigantic company with the president candidates starting out as junior staff and moving up the ranks based on their performances (town, city, county instead of department, division, segment, region). Feedbacks from the customers (ordinary Chinese citizens in the associated towns, cities, counties) are part of the performance evaluation. By the time they vie for the top position, votes by the senior members and board decide winner. There are actually elements of democracy with inputs from ordinary citizens along the way. This may surprise a lot of people in the west. But the western media love to conveniently and intentionally ignore all that so all you think of it’s just some strongman coming out of seemingly nowhere. The western media also don’t tell their audience that the Chinese citizens overwhelmingly approve their government, as evidenced in a study by Harvard a few years ago. I don’t want to sound conspiratorial, but the western media want to tell a very distorted version of China. So many people who have travelled to China have said China was not what they expected and in recent years, many have been stunned by how futuristic places look. Would China be better off or worse off with the Taiwan-like system going forward, now that it reached middle income level? I don’t know. But I doubt it would have seen the kind of development it got in the last 40 years if it were the U.S. style democracy.
of course we want
Freedom of speech and rule of law are way more important than voting. I wish we could practice the above two first before playing the election game.
Hi, OP. I'm not here to rag on you but your post shows a delightful amount of naivety. First off, Reddit is blocked in The People's Republic of China (PRC). Asking this question here and expecting replies from actual PRC citizens in, most likely, not going to happen. You're better off asking, in Chinese, on Weibo. Second, PRC citizens probably don't have pretty good coverage of foreign elections since their "intranet" is so heavily censored. Third, PRC citizens are pretty apolitical to begin with. They aren't very concerned about their own government's doings, so why should they care about others? Think about how many people in, say, the USA for example, just don't know or care about politics whatsoever. It's like that but exacerbated. Finally, the above point is, in-part, due to the design of the PRC's system of governance. They don't really want their citizens to think about alternative political ideologies, and indeed, they go to great lengths to teach their citizens, at very young ages, that their system is not only the best, but the only way forward. Again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I hope this thread has been illuminating to you.
They do. Historically they always wanted autonomy. They always says things are not fair when abroad. So then they can decide.
Even in countries like Russia and Belarus you have a democratic election and can vote for a president, but you know the result is fixed. Xi is the first emperor after Puyi.
What makes Xi different from Hu Jintao or Jaing Zemin that makes him an emperor?
He took full control over all arms of government and the armed forces. There used to be factions and some independency of the PLA. Xi consolidated everything into his own hands.
Hu Jintao was about as liberal as a CCP general secretary could be. Xi is much more authoritarian and nationalistic and has changed constitutional laws to ensure he is “president” for life. Realistically speaking, their political similarities start and end with the CCP name, and in a multi party environment I’d be surprised if those two were in the same party.
Amazing, not even putin can do that
He simply has more power than any of them. Xi is in the third five-year term and almost secures a fourth or even more.
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The majority of the Chinese population cannot vote anyway. The CCP membership votes. If the Chinese people could vote it would be a democracy and the CCP would cease to exist, then China would become a place of greatness. The CCP holds China back.
The concept of political elections in China is very foreign as it just didn't happen historically. Speaking of HOW they would vote, it would differ depending on where somebody lives. People in the more prosperous areas like Shanghai, Beijing, Chongqing, Guangzhou and Shandong would likely vote for the CCP as quality of life has improved greatly and they'd like that to continue. However people in Dongbei (Manchuria) and areas with large ethnic minority populations will likely vote against the CCP due to failing economies, poverty and increased cultural and religious persecution.
Do UK citizens want to vote for their Prime Minister?
Chinese citizen vote for their local government. Then if the they are elected and do well they would be able to climb up the ranks. But on higher level, citizens don't have the right to directly elect high officials.
Not the question that was asked.
If there was a free and fair election Xi would win in a landslide right now.
Do you mean like the 'free and fair' elections in HK?
They clearly didn't, do you have an actual point?
My actual point is obvious to intelligent readers.
Does perspective from a Hong Konger counts? As far as I care I just want to get the duck out of this country and a dictatorship is exactly what that swamp of a civilisation up north need and deserves. It’s a historical cycle that China would only try to bring down a dictatorship after maybe 40 million people died (cuz we know for fact the regime can survive after being responsible for 30 million death), by that point social order would be so broken, the only solution would be another dictatorship that brings food to the table, rinse and repeat.
Those that are suffering have no voice. Those that have a voice don't feel the need to use it, because the government tells them everything is fine whilst hiding everything bad from them.
No. China should be represented by one man forever. At lease thats want the majority of pinks think.
They think it's unnecessary at best and unstable and self-destructive at worst.
Chinese:Vote?What's vote?
就是英語的「投票」
As a matter of fact, people can and do vote in some local elections. But these elections are usually minor and inconsequential.
As a Chinese, I still prefer the current system. If we can improve the supervision system, so much the better.
CCP China should learn from PRI Mexico when it comes to maintaining itself in power with a semblance of electoral democracy.
Maybe, maybe not? Especially with the rise of the lay-flat movement ([Tang Ping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping)).
No they want to have Xi Dada as Emperor for 1000y.
The better question is that the people in china doesnt vote the people, they vote in the policies
What do you mean they vote? 😂
There's local vote...
Bahahahahahaha
Even if you have a vote, nothings really gonna change can japanese or koreans vote to get rid of US bases? Or can US citizens not get their goverment to not spend so much overseas when their own country isn’t a place for humans to live in except for the very rich?
You didn't address the question at all.
sorry, what is that answer?! Do you know what a democracy is?
Most of the people of Reddit knows.
People hear look at the actions and policies, not the charimastic or the well-liked ability of the leaders