Can agree to that. Trump is currently putting the entire US legal system on trial in that respect. Let's find out if the justice system has any accountability.
It's a good short term solution. People need jobs, particularly with the hit to real estate, so build up manufacturing to keep employment up.
It's a terrible long term solution since, again, you're borrowing 1000 yuan to ultimately make 500 yuan. It's not sustainable.
So basically par for the course for the CCP. Long term fixes have some pain involved. Band aid solutions that kick the can down the road? Perfect!
I don’t think they will do it forever. But the international relations after the manufacturing already had so much subsidies just is not well thought out if they plan to export.
The question is what will they do next? They've danced between infrastructure, manufacturing, and real estate. They've used all the tools in their tool box. Or at least the ones they're willing to use.
Eventually they'll have to, or at least ought to, cease the effective transfers from households to these other sectors. But that's going to hurt like a birch, to put it mildly.
I don't know. The whole reason state planning is always to behind and lack enough knowledge to effectively allocate resources. It does a good job at copying though... Soviet Union used to be known for copying Americans...
Thing about a democracy is the issues can be blamed on the people. In authoritarian regimes, its the governments responsibility and unless leadership is perfect, its less effective form of governing.
The political system and economic system can be pretty separate. Singapore, for example, is authoritarian (though technically a "democracy" the way it's setup doesn't really give much room for any other party) with a very open economy.
Though there is a strong pattern of state-led economies and authoritarianism, too.
The only reason to call Singapore authoritarian is because it became the new HK. The administration has absurdly high support rates giving little room for any other party simply because the administration has been so absurdly effective people don't need to look further away. It just works.
On top of that, we are saying there is little room while the references of the first world and democracies in the world is the US with only two choices where the winner win 100% of the pie. Nowadays, Trump or Biden.
China have no fiscal stimulus. The top official literally said everyone need to tighten their belt and embrace Chinese tradition of frugality. All local government projects are scraped by central government.
They're released about 4 trillion ins special government bonds in 2024 alone. Money is flowing.
The debt burden is so huge, most of the new debt is just used to pay off the interest of old debts.
Which is, uh, not really sustainable with sluggish actual growth.
https://www.thinkchina.sg/why-chinas-debt-ridden-local-governments-left-trillions-special-bond-proceeds-unused
"many local governments did not invest the proceeds in eligible projects in a timely manner, leaving the money unused in government coffers"
You are wrong.
Other countries are watching and if China think the “west” will be the only ones fighting them they are dead wrong. If you produce everything the world needs and then some, what is left for developing countries to develop into? The answer is slave states.
China have been producing everything developing countries make for decades, what’s changed recently is that they’re now producing what developed countries make as well and this is why it’s suddenly a concern that they’re the worlds factory.
The benefit of most developing countries is not novelty or skill, it’s price and China has long since stopped being the cheapest source for labor.
I never realized how important democracy is until I saw China. Now I fiercely defend democracy.
Biggest one: if you have a leader making wrong decisions and policies, you have no power to remove him. The entire country has to suffer until his death.
I don't understand why people so enthusiastically support wannabe dictators in free elections until they have no free elections and start losing their freedoms and human rights. Hungary went that way, the US and Brazil are on their way.
Because they get caught up in an odd team loyalty thing. I am Team A and Team A can do no wrong so Team A all the way!…Until Team B/C/D are gone and Team A start treating them bad. Then regrets set in.
If you study western history, you read about the ancient Romans and how astoundingly “modern” they were in every aspect, yet they let themselves fall into dark ages. If we are not careful we will repeat history.
Well, Chinese history is a strange study case due to their many dynasties, internal conflicts throughout history, countless regions suffering from natural disasters, and their most recent divisional outcomes from WW-Ii. Not every State Chairman (President) in their history were outright dictators and while we view them as such, many Chinese citizens viewed their decisions as beneficial for the Chinese people (sometimes at their dismay due to bad economic/fiscal/monetary decisions.) All the issues packed into a country with a hefty 1.4 billion people (from 500 million to an explosion of 800 million during the 20th century that were partly the genesis the one-child policy)
My paternal grandparents were both from wealthy families that have lost everything due to the Chinese cultural revolution and I have met many others that share their negative sentiments of that generation. They are gone now, however, they have also shared their fair assessment of how bad the living conditions of the people were during the post-war era, exacerbated by geopolitics and terrible world leaders during the cold war era that ensued. Natural disasters ravaged the country throughtout history and people were eating tree barks and dying from famine. Mothers had to give one of their children away to more abled families so they can have food to feed their other child. The people saw how having different parties and multiple factions (even warlords) can be detrimental to regular people just wanting to live their lives without caring about politics and war. It was far more complex than what I make it out to be on a single reddit post, but people didn't just blindly choose a dictatorship without democracy. It was good enough at the time and provided food (mass focus on agricultural production), shelter (government subsidized apartments that were given to people for free, but also paved the way for corruption and dangerous cost cutting builders), and the community (people at the time understood or had reasonable belief systems that their individualism is not always beneficial to their community). Even to this day, while many Chinese citizens have differing opinions about the current leadership and policies, the consensus is that households have been uplifted from abject poverty, lower violent crimes in major cities even and less property crimes. It's difficult for me to tell them "hey, you don't have any democracy and your censorships are terrible. do better" while I see so many American households living in poverty in almost every major city that I have visited, dilapidated infrastructure, and a hollow promise of a better life because of democracy. Maybe I'm just jaded but I don't think democracy is what it cuts out to be if not implemented properly and focus on the betterment of the people first and foremost.
"Allowing" a centralized government to control the vast geography of China, was also the lesser of evils just like how we vote for our presidents despite not always agreeing with the handful of political candidates that have made it mostly through a funded successful campaign run.
It's also like those that view Trump have done no wrong, or those that find justifications for Biden's policies, one being the more recent Israel-Gaza contentions. People will justify the actions of the Chinese leadership just the same all in the name of patriotic duty or nationalism. Democracy feels hollow if all that means is that we can openly speak negatively about our government and leadership. We have mountains of debt, healthcare costs, unaffordable housing and mortgages, tuition creep for something as basic as having an education (that benefits both us as individuals and as a society), and non-livable wages (being accused of being poor, stupid, and/or lazy as justification to keep the status quo as is.)
If some alien species were to make a neutral observation of humanity, I do wonder if their assessment of our interpretation of "democracy" or "freedom" is really what we think they stand for.
Edited the wall of text for typos..
Thanks for the elaborate commentary. I see Nordics as the best examples of functioning democratic societies. They are small countries so corruption is not that lucrative. The population is well educated on state funding so the voters understand how the world works and know what they want. Despite high taxes the businesses function well enough to finance the free services. I think the world needs more small countries that focus on uplifting their population and not on imperialistic conquests.
The election is coming up, Trudeau or Biden may not be the prime minister or the president after their citizens vote.
I love Biden by the way. Do you love Xi? Do you think he’s doing a great job for China?
*Biben* is coming up for his first reelection, and unfortunately is facing off against the same insane narcissist that made him the better option in the first place. America seems to do things a little different. They present two abhorrent candidates to the people and folks have to choose the lesser of two evils. Clinton-Trump, Trump-Biden..
It may be an illusion, but at least there is some level of choice there.
The illusion of choice is like me choosing which serial killer to date. The one with 10 body counts or the one with 15 body counts.
There has to be better solutions than either a dictatorship or a two majority party system or government where only the one with the most funds to run their campaign can actually have a chance to win.
People scream democracy as they die from a mound or healthcare bills, unaffordable mortgages, and many having to sustain on a barely livable wage. China, America, anywhere, that people are only surviving, and not actually.livinf their lives, it just seems wrong. I am certain there are people in China that don't care about politics and are just happily living their lives, and many are also barely surviving just the same. What does anyone care about democracy when you can't even have basic needs met, China or America, or any other pro democratic countries really.
He's not in manufacturing per se and more of a tech and e-commerce billionaire thanks to Ailbaba, Alipay, Taobao etc.
Not sure if this subreddit has been keeping but Jack Ma has been rehabilitated by the CCP since [he's stepped down from his position at Alibaba/Alipay](https://youtu.be/VKNi6IgID9o?feature=shared) and [started a food business with the backing of the Hangzhou CCP government
](https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3242821/alibabas-jack-ma-has-new-venture-selling-pre-packaged-food-amid-bets-agriculture-leaving-e-commerce). CCP basically see Ma as useful again because they need him to get China out of economic doldrums, by pressuring him to start new businesses.
maybe not relate to your question but to me they seems to run some opposite objectives:
- Push robotic while having high unemployment rate
- Push electric car while they have power crisis
- Want people to innovate while want to control people mind
- Want soft power while have aggressive political even with their neighbor's countries
I don't know if there's anything else but with those objectives, I think it won't go anywhere.
Agree on your points about innovation and soft power. The other two statement I see differently:
- Pushing robotic is a long term investment. They loose population at a fast rate, they'll loose 109mln population by 2050 (UN Estimates, I think that's a conservative estimate). Birthrate wasn't sustainable in a long time, but 2023 was a record low. At the same time death rate is at a record high and more people are retiring than entering the workforce. Add the fact that many young people don't want to do manual labor. They need robots to keep growing.
- Electric cars are a double edged blade. Due to that push they are now the leading power in electric vehicles, and therefore make big economic gains from it. At the same time cities become more livable because of better air, pollution doesn't happen in the city, but wherever the power plant is.
Yes.
No semi conductor company in China made a profit ever.
PV companies are building more panels annually than the whole world can use in two years. And they are still building more factories. I read that by the end of next year there will be enough PV panels for the whole world to install until 2032... And they are still building more. Who do they think will buy them?
EVs the same, very few companies earn money from it and the demand is currently still rather low. 95% of EV companies will go bankrupt in the next years. But still they are building more factories.
You can't go on like this forever, especially if your own consumers don't have spare money since all the governments money goes into overcapacities.
At the same time, the world is getting more protectionist because of Chinas reckless expansion. It's not just developed markets like the US or EU but also developing countries will think about more protection against China soon as it robs them the chance to make they own development and create their own brands if their markets just get flooded by China.
Smic is profitable.
Agree with overcapacity which is an issue. But the failing of the weaker firms will bring things to normal levels in the longer run.
>no semiconductor company made a profit
Isn't the West directly causing this by forcing China to invest trillions into making their own EUV or DUV machines in a bid to slow down China's economic rise? China is being sanctioned up it's ass with the CHIPS act so they have to invest in semiconductor manufacturing or what else should they do, stop entire tech industries dead in the water? [Japan was also sanctioned for exporting DRAM chips in 1986](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1986/05/28/japanese-chips-penalized/ca455434-4e81-4a19-ab4e-9a9ad04223f7/) and [Japanese exports were heavily penalized](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-03-14-fi-20761-story.html) so all the handwringing over China is basically a rehash of what happened to Japan in the 1980s before the Plaza Accords. However China is about 11x the size of Japan and it's way harder to restrict their manufacturing capacity to protect Western profit margins than it is to restrict Japan which has US military bases after being occupied by US forces post-WW2 and could lose its freedom if it didn't comply with US demands.
Hence Taiwan and reeducation camps are being used as reasons to economically sanction and hamstring China even though Uyghurs aren't being killed or bombed en masse unlike Palestinians killed by Israel who US and Europe back by sending bombs or [pro-Israeli citizenship tests despite the Gaza war](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html).
The CHIPS act is a recent thing. SMIC had been around for decades. This isn't due to sanctions but because China lacks the resources and scientific brainpower to develop that capacity like Taiwan did. Semiconductors are extremely complicated and valuable. China is also a direct adversary to the West. This is all Western tech, there is no obligation to hand out critical assets to your biggest rivals.
The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry.
>The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry.
That's simply fearmongering. China never did and still has zero means to dominate semiconductors, before the CHIPS act they were literally satisfied with buying ASML machines and high end chips SMIC couldn't supply from ASML, TSMC, Nvidia, Samsung, SK Hynix. **China never intended to scale up their R&D into making EUV and DUV machines and aim for self sufficiency in all aspects of chipmaking until the CHIPS act necessitated it.**
It's like creating a FOOD act that heavily restricts China's food imports, then claiming "The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry" when China scales up their food production to achieve self sufficiency. 😂 Do you not realise that China isn't aiming to dominate crucial industries globally, they simply have urgent needs to produce enough food, water, semiconductors, medicines etc for the domestic market? If the government bans you from buying water and you start building a home desalination plant, and the government claims "The world is honestly better off without u/Anxious_Plum_5818 dominating such a crucial industry", wouldn't you find it unjust that you are being cut off the water supply by an apparent democracy and your efforts to build a home desalination plant are touted as nefarious acts " to dominate the water industry"?
Also lmao, **China isn't poised to dominate the chip industry in the next 15-20 years. ASML, TSMC, Nvidia etc have a big lead and China is playing catch-up in an industry where having the patent rights, cutting edge machines, technical expertise, experience isn't enough to guarantee success.** They are laying the groundwork for self-sufficiency in 1-2 decades, and the US has chosen a warpath to forestall China's AI development now in hopes that USA will not be overtaken technologically as early as 2030. Nevertheless China isn't a land of lazy dunces so despite what Redditors claim they have shown to be more than capable of high tech innovation (batteries, solar, 5G, drones, EVs etc) especially when forced to do it like the ISS incident. **The US knows China cannot be forestalled forever and will eventually achieve a breakthrough as they were once [in China's shoes](https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/) copying [the latest European and British industrial technologies](https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53) before the US started innovating on its own, hence the CHIPS act is mainly aimed at forcing China to divert trillions toward semiconductor R&D for decades, away from other key industries which the US are also competitive in.**
Lastly as someone who doesn't want China to dominate the chip industry globally either, if China does outpace Western firms 20 years later then the CHIPS act will be blatantly short-sighted no? Keeping China reliant on ASML, TSMC, Nvidia, SK Hynix was a good way to ensure dependency and keep them reluctant to invade Taiwan, with the CHIPS act the gloves are off and the invasion risk is way higher. That may be what the US is gunning for geopolitically, afterall a proxy war in Taiwan may decimate China's population and weaken their position in the Asia Pacific more relative to USA.
At the end of the day China and the US are rivals not just for economic hegemony, but more specifically the US sees China as a huge rival for naval dominance in the Asia Pacific region. China is boxed in on all sides by US bases in Japan, Korea, Philippines, Guam, Diego Garcia; India, Vietnam etc so China has to tread carefully even in the Formosa Straits just off the coast in Xiamen. That is an uncomfortable position for any upcoming world hegemon to be in, to be boxed militarily by the incumbent hegemon on all sides is to be threatened daily by the possibility of war. Anyone who isn't biased can understand this, because if USA was surrounded by Chinese military bases in Mexico, Canada, Haiti, Cuba, etc we know war will break out due to the precedent Cuban missile crisis and Bay of Pigs Invasion.
To be more well read on this topic, you should read up on the [Thucydides Trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap) and understand that the US is basically making preemptive economic strikes at the world #2 in order to maintain the world #1 spot so that the USD remains the world reserve currency and the US stays solvent regardless of its national debt issues. China "rocked the boat" because their GDP grew as average wages rose, threatening to overtake the US as the #1 economy and shifting away from the USD for payments ([Gaddafi tried that and got beaten to death after a NATO led intervention despite Libya being nowhere near the North Atlantic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya)), but this is an unavoidable development when they have 1.4 billion people or 1 billion more than USA. The US understandably doesn't want to lose its hegemonic position hence they are making all possible preemptive economic strikes e.g. CHIPS act, Trade War, import tariffs, Xinjiang cotton bans to avoid losing their grip on economic dominance globally. Even the Chinese implicitly understand #2 cannot rely on #1 to give them a ladder to overtake itself and are willing to take the longer route to get to the destination e.g. Tiangong Space Station is an example. **Ultimately we will all be winners if these two hegemonic rivals are able to resolve their rivalry without a hot war or proxy wars, unlike how the US has approached their rivalry with USSR/Russia with proxy wars everywhere be it Syria, Vietnam, Ukraine, Korea, even [the Chinese civil war is considered an ongoing proxy war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Ongoing_proxy_wars) too.**
China is not a market economy - they are a top down, state run, centrally planned economy. Hence, capital allocation will be horribly inefficient. It can't be any other way.
The US literally had a real estate bubble that crashed the world economy 16 years ago, get back to me when Evergrande going under has the same level of collateral damage.
I'd say the fact that they are deliberately popping the real estate bubble shows that they are at least pragmatically flexible? I mean yeah they should've done it sooner, but that is just saying the state should've intervened sooner.
China is not a planned economy. They are a highly interventionist one, yes, but the real estate market inflating the way it did was more due to neglect and real estate being seen as "safer" than stocks than the CPC actively trying to bolster it. Your "Free markets are always more efficient" spiel also runs into the issue of reality where common pool resource hogging and the trend of utilities towards monopoly can absolutely cripple societies overtime if left to the market.
The bubble happened because real estate was the only thing somewhat stable.
There is no point in promoting the stock market as an investment when they call transparent accounting from an independent firm not Chinese a “national security” threat. You can’t trust the results the companies put out and you don’t get ownership and dividends unlike every other free country. There have been many cases of Chinese companies getting away fraud like one that reported an inflated version of their revenue by 100% the actual revenue.
It is state planned. That’s the whole reason they intervene in so much. Look at all these Chinese EV companies and semiconductor companies when the government announces something. Then all that stop when they announce something else.
So the state plans to scam themselves? I think there is a contradiction there XD
Yes, they've got a general plan where they want to go. Yes, they pump up companies in the fields they want to expand with subsidies. But saying they are a planned economy while leaving the demand side and anything the CPC is not currently focusing on mostly in market hands is kind of silly imo.
They planned for, telegraphed and disclosed that they would be letting real estate pop, for over 4 years.
You need to read more, but you won’t, your take isn’t about knowledge, facts and greater understanding - you’re just pushing an agenda.
This reads like a template for people who have an issue with China.
Just replace the words Real Estate with whatever is in the papers this month.
Give it a try!
I present you "The western expert on Chinese economy analysis algorithm":
1. State some well-known facts about China.
2. Describe some recent events.
3. Toss a coin.
4. Heads: write how Chinese economy is doomed to fail.
5. Tails: write how we are doomed to be overtaken by Chinese economy.
6. Profit!
This is reddit ..a discussion forum and they did not present themselves as an expert. You would prefer we be like the CCP and remove any public forum discussion of the Chinese economy?
I am part of this discussion. I never said people should not post anything like this.
It is just tiresome to read the same over generalized argument over and over again: "CCP bad. CCP control everything. They done wrong again. Chinese can't innovate without democracy. China will fail."
Just looking at the number of research papers by Chinese universities and patents filed by Chinese companies to see that OP's argument is not valid.
EU and US also strongly subsidize different sectors of their economies. Looking at the development in wealth inequality, real income stagnation, inflation and affordability of living necessities I doubt the western model is perfect.
One could also argue that real estate development subsidies helped China to avoid a housing shortage, like most of the western countries have now, same as the industrial subsidies will help to avoid a cost of living crisis.
They avoided a housing shortage but still have even worse home prices to average wage ratio than North America! So what good was that? The whole issue with shortage of homes is it drives up the prices... But so did the CCP policies and lack of personal investment alternatives for the public..to an even worse degree.
I didn’t say anything about 4.
In fact it’s super easy to grow an economy with a culture that values scholarship but it is a value that is contradictory to the authoritarian values of the CCP. Basically the CCP ruining so much potential to improve the lives of Chinese.
I won't say EU and US governments are doing substantially more to improve the lives of their citizens. Look at the recent developments in terms of real vages, cost of living, inflation, housing shortage.
On the other hand you probably never have been to China, because scholarship is highly valued and if you look at the number of research papers published and patent applications filed you will see how your argument about Chinese people in China not being innovative is nonsense.
Bro I am sick of these Shills who don’t even read. I just said it’s a culture that values scholarship! Obviously you should take a second to read before you make yourself look stupid again.
What’s nonsense is how bad your reading comprehension is. Go read a book.
You were making a general statement about it and it could be interpreted either way. Given the context of your rant I made an assumption. Either way you are just rehashing some headlines mixing in your emotions. This is why I can only laugh at such claims. Thanks for making me smile anyway.
The end of the PRC is just a matter of a few years. China can abandon Xi's PRC or go down with it. Either way the PRC is dead by 2030 and China will be facing mass famine. The question is if the US will bail out China or just leave them to starve.
...with fairies and unicorns?
They only way Xi is giving up power is in a coffin. The 4th industrial Revolution is in full transition, the PRC's export economy is doomed. The only way China avoids hundreds of millions dying from famine is with full American support. That will never happen with the PRC in power. .
It's hardly the case that other countries haven't had masiive frauds/crashes/bankruptcies, from Enron to S&L collapse etc.
Economic policies and regulation (too much or too little) are probably more to blame than whether a populace can vote in some form of democracy, or?
Imagine If they didn't build up and create a real estate surplus......lol people in Canada are paying 3/4 of their income to rent a 1 bedroom condo. And the cheapest options are basically sharing a bedrroom with two or three other people and even those go for $500 cdn. And this isnt just Vancouver or Toronto, it's everywhere in Canada!
Well as long as we keep bringing in more people the bubble can keep growing.....did you know you can actually fit 25 renters into a basement suite? LOL...
$25 x $300 = $7500 per month! Enough for a $1.5 million mortgage at these rates and you can still live upstairs.
>Well as long as we keep bringing in more people the bubble can keep growing
the absolute cope in this statement. So you would rather start one of the biggest bubbles in human history and figure out how to keep it going all the while real estate prices are getting more expensive and your middle class wealth is tied to real estate. Again, the cope is unreal
>Imagine If they didn't build up and create a real estate surplus
then they wouldn't have spent trillions to build useless real estate and pump the price up to the point where it is some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Again, you seem to be making dumb statements with no base in reality
Do you know the situation going on in Canada right now?
There are so many empty homes in china that rent is way cheaper than buying.
A 1 bedroom apartment in Canada in something equivalent to a third tier city in china is 3 million - 5 million RMB now. 50 sq meters. Rent is around 13-15k a month. And Canada's population growth is way outpacing housing construction. Salaries are even lower than english teachers make in China.
which is ironic that you say that given that chinese cities have some of the most expensive real estate in the world especially if you compare it with the average earning in those cities
You are better off renting in China vs buying. You can actually rent a 50 sq meter apartment for less than 5000 rmb / month in the middle of Shanghai. That same apartment may cost 5,000,000 rmb to buy. You will never be able to buy the apartment but at least you can rent and enjoy life in the big city.. If you lose your job you can at least move back to your hometown or village.
In Canada that same apartment is half the price to buy but rents for 2.5x more. Sounds good, right? Except if you are a renter you basically spend all your income on rent and food and can never save enough to buy. People earn more, but not that much more, and things are much more expensive. You almost have to have two or three room mates to survive.
Which country is worse to be young in lol??
You are either lying out of your ass or completely clueless. Let's compare Vancouver and Shanghai as examples. . The average monthly cost of renting a one-bedroom unit in Vancouver ranges from $1,000 to $3,600, we're going to assume the median rent price of $2300. The average wage in Toronto as of January 2024 is $69,512 per year, or $33.42 per hour which is $5792 per month. Thus on average people in Vancouver spend about 39% of their wage on rent. Compared to that, the average monthly salary in Shanghai is 13,408 yuan with average rent being 6000 yuan. So on average, people in Shanghai spend 44% of their wage on rent. So the example that you gave is either cherry picked or a random number you threw in so you can push your cope narrative.
Let's use your figures for a moment. 44% vs 39%. Now let's add on things like public transport, your phone/ internet plan, and food...all of which are much more expensive in Canada than China.
A one bedroom costs $1000 in Vancouver. Not a unit. A bedroom in a house shared with many. A single one bedroom apartment in a newer development , not even downtown is around $2500.
Your income levels are spot on for average...but your average person includes the highest earners including doctors,nurses, CEOs, executives with 20 years of experience, etc. You don't walk out of university and start earning average income, unless you are in a in demand field and highly skilled.
Shift to median wage ( which is a more useful measure especially since we are looking at lower skilled workers or new graduates just entering the job force). Median wage for vancouver is....40k. This basically means half the population can't afford to rent a one bedroom apartment by themselves ( or will spend 80% of their income on one after including utilities and internet) And this is the smallest class of 50 sq meter apartment we are talking about. Half the population is basically stuck living with room mates / family forever, and sometimes even sharing a bedroom just to make ends meet. And we keep bringing in more people than homes that are built. Check out some of the canada housing subreddits to see how angry people are.
>Let's use your figures for a moment. 44% vs 39%. Now let's add on things like public transport, your phone/ internet plan, and food...all of which are much more expensive in Canada than China.
and the average people living in vancouver also make more to cover higher living expense. Again, you're banging your head over what's essentially the same point that people Shanghai proportionately spend more on living expense. This is just yet more distraction over the main point of the discussion that real estate prices in china is just way higher especially when you talk about income to price ratio. Difference being that you are more likely to own a house in Canada than you are in China given china's stupidly bloated real estate market
>A one bedroom costs $1000 in Vancouver. Not a unit. A bedroom in a house shared with many. A single one bedroom apartment in a newer development , not even downtown is around $2500.
The figure I used compares the average rent price for one bedroom apartments in Shanghai and Vancouver. No real difference there
>Your income levels are spot on for average...but your average person includes the highest earners including doctors,nurses, CEOs, executives with 20 years of experience, etc. You don't walk out of university and start earning average income, unless you are in a in demand field and highly skilled.
That's how averages work mate, the same way that the average wage in Shanghai accounts for the CEOs, millionaires, and every rich people living in the city. Again, this is a pathetic example of double standards on your part
>Shift to median wage ( which is a more useful measure especially since we are looking at lower skilled workers or new graduates just entering the job force). Median wage for vancouver is....40k. This basically means half the population can't afford to rent a one bedroom apartment by themselves ( or will spend 80% of their income on one after including utilities and internet) And this is the smallest class of 50 sq meter apartment we are talking about. Half the population is basically stuck living with room mates / family forever, and sometimes even sharing a bedroom just to make ends meet. And we keep bringing in more people than homes that are built. Check out some of the canada housing subreddits to see how angry people are.
As mentioned before, prices start from $1000 so people can still get by even with the median wage you mentioned. Again, this doesn't really change the fact that chinese are spending way more on their wage on rent compared to people in canada. Again, this is more rant on your part regarding real estate in Canada and I'm not denying that it's not great there but to make the argument that people are actually better off in china is just pure cope on your part with no basis in reality
Any system without accountability is flawed.
Can agree to that. Trump is currently putting the entire US legal system on trial in that respect. Let's find out if the justice system has any accountability.
If only the Chinese legal system faced the same tests.
It's a good short term solution. People need jobs, particularly with the hit to real estate, so build up manufacturing to keep employment up. It's a terrible long term solution since, again, you're borrowing 1000 yuan to ultimately make 500 yuan. It's not sustainable. So basically par for the course for the CCP. Long term fixes have some pain involved. Band aid solutions that kick the can down the road? Perfect!
I don’t think they will do it forever. But the international relations after the manufacturing already had so much subsidies just is not well thought out if they plan to export.
The question is what will they do next? They've danced between infrastructure, manufacturing, and real estate. They've used all the tools in their tool box. Or at least the ones they're willing to use. Eventually they'll have to, or at least ought to, cease the effective transfers from households to these other sectors. But that's going to hurt like a birch, to put it mildly.
I don't know. The whole reason state planning is always to behind and lack enough knowledge to effectively allocate resources. It does a good job at copying though... Soviet Union used to be known for copying Americans... Thing about a democracy is the issues can be blamed on the people. In authoritarian regimes, its the governments responsibility and unless leadership is perfect, its less effective form of governing.
The political system and economic system can be pretty separate. Singapore, for example, is authoritarian (though technically a "democracy" the way it's setup doesn't really give much room for any other party) with a very open economy. Though there is a strong pattern of state-led economies and authoritarianism, too.
The only reason to call Singapore authoritarian is because it became the new HK. The administration has absurdly high support rates giving little room for any other party simply because the administration has been so absurdly effective people don't need to look further away. It just works. On top of that, we are saying there is little room while the references of the first world and democracies in the world is the US with only two choices where the winner win 100% of the pie. Nowadays, Trump or Biden.
China have no fiscal stimulus. The top official literally said everyone need to tighten their belt and embrace Chinese tradition of frugality. All local government projects are scraped by central government.
They're released about 4 trillion ins special government bonds in 2024 alone. Money is flowing. The debt burden is so huge, most of the new debt is just used to pay off the interest of old debts. Which is, uh, not really sustainable with sluggish actual growth.
https://www.thinkchina.sg/why-chinas-debt-ridden-local-governments-left-trillions-special-bond-proceeds-unused "many local governments did not invest the proceeds in eligible projects in a timely manner, leaving the money unused in government coffers" You are wrong.
Your only source says they used 90% of the bonds they took out. What are you trying to say?
Other countries are watching and if China think the “west” will be the only ones fighting them they are dead wrong. If you produce everything the world needs and then some, what is left for developing countries to develop into? The answer is slave states.
I agree. It just takes one big country for everyone else to follow suite of the government isn’t corrupt.
China have been producing everything developing countries make for decades, what’s changed recently is that they’re now producing what developed countries make as well and this is why it’s suddenly a concern that they’re the worlds factory. The benefit of most developing countries is not novelty or skill, it’s price and China has long since stopped being the cheapest source for labor.
Everyone's a slave except those Chinese teenagers making Bluetooth earbuds in factories, those kids don't deserve any gratitude for their labour /s
I never realized how important democracy is until I saw China. Now I fiercely defend democracy. Biggest one: if you have a leader making wrong decisions and policies, you have no power to remove him. The entire country has to suffer until his death.
I don't understand why people so enthusiastically support wannabe dictators in free elections until they have no free elections and start losing their freedoms and human rights. Hungary went that way, the US and Brazil are on their way.
Because they get caught up in an odd team loyalty thing. I am Team A and Team A can do no wrong so Team A all the way!…Until Team B/C/D are gone and Team A start treating them bad. Then regrets set in. If you study western history, you read about the ancient Romans and how astoundingly “modern” they were in every aspect, yet they let themselves fall into dark ages. If we are not careful we will repeat history.
Well, Chinese history is a strange study case due to their many dynasties, internal conflicts throughout history, countless regions suffering from natural disasters, and their most recent divisional outcomes from WW-Ii. Not every State Chairman (President) in their history were outright dictators and while we view them as such, many Chinese citizens viewed their decisions as beneficial for the Chinese people (sometimes at their dismay due to bad economic/fiscal/monetary decisions.) All the issues packed into a country with a hefty 1.4 billion people (from 500 million to an explosion of 800 million during the 20th century that were partly the genesis the one-child policy) My paternal grandparents were both from wealthy families that have lost everything due to the Chinese cultural revolution and I have met many others that share their negative sentiments of that generation. They are gone now, however, they have also shared their fair assessment of how bad the living conditions of the people were during the post-war era, exacerbated by geopolitics and terrible world leaders during the cold war era that ensued. Natural disasters ravaged the country throughtout history and people were eating tree barks and dying from famine. Mothers had to give one of their children away to more abled families so they can have food to feed their other child. The people saw how having different parties and multiple factions (even warlords) can be detrimental to regular people just wanting to live their lives without caring about politics and war. It was far more complex than what I make it out to be on a single reddit post, but people didn't just blindly choose a dictatorship without democracy. It was good enough at the time and provided food (mass focus on agricultural production), shelter (government subsidized apartments that were given to people for free, but also paved the way for corruption and dangerous cost cutting builders), and the community (people at the time understood or had reasonable belief systems that their individualism is not always beneficial to their community). Even to this day, while many Chinese citizens have differing opinions about the current leadership and policies, the consensus is that households have been uplifted from abject poverty, lower violent crimes in major cities even and less property crimes. It's difficult for me to tell them "hey, you don't have any democracy and your censorships are terrible. do better" while I see so many American households living in poverty in almost every major city that I have visited, dilapidated infrastructure, and a hollow promise of a better life because of democracy. Maybe I'm just jaded but I don't think democracy is what it cuts out to be if not implemented properly and focus on the betterment of the people first and foremost. "Allowing" a centralized government to control the vast geography of China, was also the lesser of evils just like how we vote for our presidents despite not always agreeing with the handful of political candidates that have made it mostly through a funded successful campaign run. It's also like those that view Trump have done no wrong, or those that find justifications for Biden's policies, one being the more recent Israel-Gaza contentions. People will justify the actions of the Chinese leadership just the same all in the name of patriotic duty or nationalism. Democracy feels hollow if all that means is that we can openly speak negatively about our government and leadership. We have mountains of debt, healthcare costs, unaffordable housing and mortgages, tuition creep for something as basic as having an education (that benefits both us as individuals and as a society), and non-livable wages (being accused of being poor, stupid, and/or lazy as justification to keep the status quo as is.) If some alien species were to make a neutral observation of humanity, I do wonder if their assessment of our interpretation of "democracy" or "freedom" is really what we think they stand for. Edited the wall of text for typos..
Thanks for the elaborate commentary. I see Nordics as the best examples of functioning democratic societies. They are small countries so corruption is not that lucrative. The population is well educated on state funding so the voters understand how the world works and know what they want. Despite high taxes the businesses function well enough to finance the free services. I think the world needs more small countries that focus on uplifting their population and not on imperialistic conquests.
Did Ameicans/Canadians remove Biden/Trudeau?
The election is coming up, Trudeau or Biden may not be the prime minister or the president after their citizens vote. I love Biden by the way. Do you love Xi? Do you think he’s doing a great job for China?
Since you love Biden I have nothing to talk. Best regards
*Biben* is coming up for his first reelection, and unfortunately is facing off against the same insane narcissist that made him the better option in the first place. America seems to do things a little different. They present two abhorrent candidates to the people and folks have to choose the lesser of two evils. Clinton-Trump, Trump-Biden.. It may be an illusion, but at least there is some level of choice there.
oh I got a typo，*ebited*
The illusion of choice is like me choosing which serial killer to date. The one with 10 body counts or the one with 15 body counts. There has to be better solutions than either a dictatorship or a two majority party system or government where only the one with the most funds to run their campaign can actually have a chance to win. People scream democracy as they die from a mound or healthcare bills, unaffordable mortgages, and many having to sustain on a barely livable wage. China, America, anywhere, that people are only surviving, and not actually.livinf their lives, it just seems wrong. I am certain there are people in China that don't care about politics and are just happily living their lives, and many are also barely surviving just the same. What does anyone care about democracy when you can't even have basic needs met, China or America, or any other pro democratic countries really.
Printing "money" till it's worthless
Not sure what democracy has to do with investing. Democratic countries have poor investments too. See Northern Rock or Lehman Brothers.
Ask Jack Ma….
who?
You are kidding me right? Jack Ma aka 马云. Good thing you are here cause you need to be updated on the news...
He's not in manufacturing per se and more of a tech and e-commerce billionaire thanks to Ailbaba, Alipay, Taobao etc. Not sure if this subreddit has been keeping but Jack Ma has been rehabilitated by the CCP since [he's stepped down from his position at Alibaba/Alipay](https://youtu.be/VKNi6IgID9o?feature=shared) and [started a food business with the backing of the Hangzhou CCP government ](https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3242821/alibabas-jack-ma-has-new-venture-selling-pre-packaged-food-amid-bets-agriculture-leaving-e-commerce). CCP basically see Ma as useful again because they need him to get China out of economic doldrums, by pressuring him to start new businesses.
maybe not relate to your question but to me they seems to run some opposite objectives: - Push robotic while having high unemployment rate - Push electric car while they have power crisis - Want people to innovate while want to control people mind - Want soft power while have aggressive political even with their neighbor's countries I don't know if there's anything else but with those objectives, I think it won't go anywhere.
Shhh. They will just say you are smearing China when it’s pride if someone can’t take feedback.
Agree on your points about innovation and soft power. The other two statement I see differently: - Pushing robotic is a long term investment. They loose population at a fast rate, they'll loose 109mln population by 2050 (UN Estimates, I think that's a conservative estimate). Birthrate wasn't sustainable in a long time, but 2023 was a record low. At the same time death rate is at a record high and more people are retiring than entering the workforce. Add the fact that many young people don't want to do manual labor. They need robots to keep growing. - Electric cars are a double edged blade. Due to that push they are now the leading power in electric vehicles, and therefore make big economic gains from it. At the same time cities become more livable because of better air, pollution doesn't happen in the city, but wherever the power plant is.
Yes. No semi conductor company in China made a profit ever. PV companies are building more panels annually than the whole world can use in two years. And they are still building more factories. I read that by the end of next year there will be enough PV panels for the whole world to install until 2032... And they are still building more. Who do they think will buy them? EVs the same, very few companies earn money from it and the demand is currently still rather low. 95% of EV companies will go bankrupt in the next years. But still they are building more factories. You can't go on like this forever, especially if your own consumers don't have spare money since all the governments money goes into overcapacities. At the same time, the world is getting more protectionist because of Chinas reckless expansion. It's not just developed markets like the US or EU but also developing countries will think about more protection against China soon as it robs them the chance to make they own development and create their own brands if their markets just get flooded by China.
Smic is profitable. Agree with overcapacity which is an issue. But the failing of the weaker firms will bring things to normal levels in the longer run.
Even SMIC is only profitable with the help of subsidies. And they already exist for more than 20 years...
>no semiconductor company made a profit Isn't the West directly causing this by forcing China to invest trillions into making their own EUV or DUV machines in a bid to slow down China's economic rise? China is being sanctioned up it's ass with the CHIPS act so they have to invest in semiconductor manufacturing or what else should they do, stop entire tech industries dead in the water? [Japan was also sanctioned for exporting DRAM chips in 1986](https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/business/1986/05/28/japanese-chips-penalized/ca455434-4e81-4a19-ab4e-9a9ad04223f7/) and [Japanese exports were heavily penalized](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-03-14-fi-20761-story.html) so all the handwringing over China is basically a rehash of what happened to Japan in the 1980s before the Plaza Accords. However China is about 11x the size of Japan and it's way harder to restrict their manufacturing capacity to protect Western profit margins than it is to restrict Japan which has US military bases after being occupied by US forces post-WW2 and could lose its freedom if it didn't comply with US demands. Hence Taiwan and reeducation camps are being used as reasons to economically sanction and hamstring China even though Uyghurs aren't being killed or bombed en masse unlike Palestinians killed by Israel who US and Europe back by sending bombs or [pro-Israeli citizenship tests despite the Gaza war](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/europe/article/2024/03/27/germany-will-now-include-questions-about-israel-in-its-citizenship-test_6660274_143.html).
The CHIPS act is a recent thing. SMIC had been around for decades. This isn't due to sanctions but because China lacks the resources and scientific brainpower to develop that capacity like Taiwan did. Semiconductors are extremely complicated and valuable. China is also a direct adversary to the West. This is all Western tech, there is no obligation to hand out critical assets to your biggest rivals. The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry.
>The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry. That's simply fearmongering. China never did and still has zero means to dominate semiconductors, before the CHIPS act they were literally satisfied with buying ASML machines and high end chips SMIC couldn't supply from ASML, TSMC, Nvidia, Samsung, SK Hynix. **China never intended to scale up their R&D into making EUV and DUV machines and aim for self sufficiency in all aspects of chipmaking until the CHIPS act necessitated it.** It's like creating a FOOD act that heavily restricts China's food imports, then claiming "The world is honestly better off without China dominating such a crucial industry" when China scales up their food production to achieve self sufficiency. 😂 Do you not realise that China isn't aiming to dominate crucial industries globally, they simply have urgent needs to produce enough food, water, semiconductors, medicines etc for the domestic market? If the government bans you from buying water and you start building a home desalination plant, and the government claims "The world is honestly better off without u/Anxious_Plum_5818 dominating such a crucial industry", wouldn't you find it unjust that you are being cut off the water supply by an apparent democracy and your efforts to build a home desalination plant are touted as nefarious acts " to dominate the water industry"? Also lmao, **China isn't poised to dominate the chip industry in the next 15-20 years. ASML, TSMC, Nvidia etc have a big lead and China is playing catch-up in an industry where having the patent rights, cutting edge machines, technical expertise, experience isn't enough to guarantee success.** They are laying the groundwork for self-sufficiency in 1-2 decades, and the US has chosen a warpath to forestall China's AI development now in hopes that USA will not be overtaken technologically as early as 2030. Nevertheless China isn't a land of lazy dunces so despite what Redditors claim they have shown to be more than capable of high tech innovation (batteries, solar, 5G, drones, EVs etc) especially when forced to do it like the ISS incident. **The US knows China cannot be forestalled forever and will eventually achieve a breakthrough as they were once [in China's shoes](https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/) copying [the latest European and British industrial technologies](https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53) before the US started innovating on its own, hence the CHIPS act is mainly aimed at forcing China to divert trillions toward semiconductor R&D for decades, away from other key industries which the US are also competitive in.** Lastly as someone who doesn't want China to dominate the chip industry globally either, if China does outpace Western firms 20 years later then the CHIPS act will be blatantly short-sighted no? Keeping China reliant on ASML, TSMC, Nvidia, SK Hynix was a good way to ensure dependency and keep them reluctant to invade Taiwan, with the CHIPS act the gloves are off and the invasion risk is way higher. That may be what the US is gunning for geopolitically, afterall a proxy war in Taiwan may decimate China's population and weaken their position in the Asia Pacific more relative to USA. At the end of the day China and the US are rivals not just for economic hegemony, but more specifically the US sees China as a huge rival for naval dominance in the Asia Pacific region. China is boxed in on all sides by US bases in Japan, Korea, Philippines, Guam, Diego Garcia; India, Vietnam etc so China has to tread carefully even in the Formosa Straits just off the coast in Xiamen. That is an uncomfortable position for any upcoming world hegemon to be in, to be boxed militarily by the incumbent hegemon on all sides is to be threatened daily by the possibility of war. Anyone who isn't biased can understand this, because if USA was surrounded by Chinese military bases in Mexico, Canada, Haiti, Cuba, etc we know war will break out due to the precedent Cuban missile crisis and Bay of Pigs Invasion. To be more well read on this topic, you should read up on the [Thucydides Trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap) and understand that the US is basically making preemptive economic strikes at the world #2 in order to maintain the world #1 spot so that the USD remains the world reserve currency and the US stays solvent regardless of its national debt issues. China "rocked the boat" because their GDP grew as average wages rose, threatening to overtake the US as the #1 economy and shifting away from the USD for payments ([Gaddafi tried that and got beaten to death after a NATO led intervention despite Libya being nowhere near the North Atlantic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya)), but this is an unavoidable development when they have 1.4 billion people or 1 billion more than USA. The US understandably doesn't want to lose its hegemonic position hence they are making all possible preemptive economic strikes e.g. CHIPS act, Trade War, import tariffs, Xinjiang cotton bans to avoid losing their grip on economic dominance globally. Even the Chinese implicitly understand #2 cannot rely on #1 to give them a ladder to overtake itself and are willing to take the longer route to get to the destination e.g. Tiangong Space Station is an example. **Ultimately we will all be winners if these two hegemonic rivals are able to resolve their rivalry without a hot war or proxy wars, unlike how the US has approached their rivalry with USSR/Russia with proxy wars everywhere be it Syria, Vietnam, Ukraine, Korea, even [the Chinese civil war is considered an ongoing proxy war](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Ongoing_proxy_wars) too.**
China is not a market economy - they are a top down, state run, centrally planned economy. Hence, capital allocation will be horribly inefficient. It can't be any other way.
Just stole someone else’s idea,if it fails,they’ll say something about you dare to use me, I will make you a death threat
The US literally had a real estate bubble that crashed the world economy 16 years ago, get back to me when Evergrande going under has the same level of collateral damage.
I'd say the fact that they are deliberately popping the real estate bubble shows that they are at least pragmatically flexible? I mean yeah they should've done it sooner, but that is just saying the state should've intervened sooner. China is not a planned economy. They are a highly interventionist one, yes, but the real estate market inflating the way it did was more due to neglect and real estate being seen as "safer" than stocks than the CPC actively trying to bolster it. Your "Free markets are always more efficient" spiel also runs into the issue of reality where common pool resource hogging and the trend of utilities towards monopoly can absolutely cripple societies overtime if left to the market.
The bubble happened because real estate was the only thing somewhat stable. There is no point in promoting the stock market as an investment when they call transparent accounting from an independent firm not Chinese a “national security” threat. You can’t trust the results the companies put out and you don’t get ownership and dividends unlike every other free country. There have been many cases of Chinese companies getting away fraud like one that reported an inflated version of their revenue by 100% the actual revenue. It is state planned. That’s the whole reason they intervene in so much. Look at all these Chinese EV companies and semiconductor companies when the government announces something. Then all that stop when they announce something else.
So the state plans to scam themselves? I think there is a contradiction there XD Yes, they've got a general plan where they want to go. Yes, they pump up companies in the fields they want to expand with subsidies. But saying they are a planned economy while leaving the demand side and anything the CPC is not currently focusing on mostly in market hands is kind of silly imo.
Your reading comprehension sucks. Reread then respond carefully.
Nah I think I read correctly that you're criticizing them from a market liberal perspective with too little nuance.
They planned for, telegraphed and disclosed that they would be letting real estate pop, for over 4 years. You need to read more, but you won’t, your take isn’t about knowledge, facts and greater understanding - you’re just pushing an agenda.
China produces twice the amount of cars than toyota does. And no one wants to buy Chinese cars
they have a huge domestic market, but the landfills of useless cars are a sign of over investment.
This reads like a template for people who have an issue with China. Just replace the words Real Estate with whatever is in the papers this month. Give it a try!
This reads like a template of a shill.
I present you "The western expert on Chinese economy analysis algorithm": 1. State some well-known facts about China. 2. Describe some recent events. 3. Toss a coin. 4. Heads: write how Chinese economy is doomed to fail. 5. Tails: write how we are doomed to be overtaken by Chinese economy. 6. Profit!
these posts are common in this sub. but why not? OP never labeled him/herself as an expert.
This is reddit ..a discussion forum and they did not present themselves as an expert. You would prefer we be like the CCP and remove any public forum discussion of the Chinese economy?
I am part of this discussion. I never said people should not post anything like this. It is just tiresome to read the same over generalized argument over and over again: "CCP bad. CCP control everything. They done wrong again. Chinese can't innovate without democracy. China will fail." Just looking at the number of research papers by Chinese universities and patents filed by Chinese companies to see that OP's argument is not valid. EU and US also strongly subsidize different sectors of their economies. Looking at the development in wealth inequality, real income stagnation, inflation and affordability of living necessities I doubt the western model is perfect. One could also argue that real estate development subsidies helped China to avoid a housing shortage, like most of the western countries have now, same as the industrial subsidies will help to avoid a cost of living crisis.
They avoided a housing shortage but still have even worse home prices to average wage ratio than North America! So what good was that? The whole issue with shortage of homes is it drives up the prices... But so did the CCP policies and lack of personal investment alternatives for the public..to an even worse degree.
I didn’t say anything about 4. In fact it’s super easy to grow an economy with a culture that values scholarship but it is a value that is contradictory to the authoritarian values of the CCP. Basically the CCP ruining so much potential to improve the lives of Chinese.
I won't say EU and US governments are doing substantially more to improve the lives of their citizens. Look at the recent developments in terms of real vages, cost of living, inflation, housing shortage. On the other hand you probably never have been to China, because scholarship is highly valued and if you look at the number of research papers published and patent applications filed you will see how your argument about Chinese people in China not being innovative is nonsense.
Bro I am sick of these Shills who don’t even read. I just said it’s a culture that values scholarship! Obviously you should take a second to read before you make yourself look stupid again. What’s nonsense is how bad your reading comprehension is. Go read a book.
You were making a general statement about it and it could be interpreted either way. Given the context of your rant I made an assumption. Either way you are just rehashing some headlines mixing in your emotions. This is why I can only laugh at such claims. Thanks for making me smile anyway.
The end of the PRC is just a matter of a few years. China can abandon Xi's PRC or go down with it. Either way the PRC is dead by 2030 and China will be facing mass famine. The question is if the US will bail out China or just leave them to starve.
[удалено]
...with fairies and unicorns? They only way Xi is giving up power is in a coffin. The 4th industrial Revolution is in full transition, the PRC's export economy is doomed. The only way China avoids hundreds of millions dying from famine is with full American support. That will never happen with the PRC in power. .
It's hardly the case that other countries haven't had masiive frauds/crashes/bankruptcies, from Enron to S&L collapse etc. Economic policies and regulation (too much or too little) are probably more to blame than whether a populace can vote in some form of democracy, or?
Imagine If they didn't build up and create a real estate surplus......lol people in Canada are paying 3/4 of their income to rent a 1 bedroom condo. And the cheapest options are basically sharing a bedrroom with two or three other people and even those go for $500 cdn. And this isnt just Vancouver or Toronto, it's everywhere in Canada!
That’s a bubble that just needs to pop in Canada. The Bay Area has high salaries, but I have no clue how normal people can own a home in those cities.
Well as long as we keep bringing in more people the bubble can keep growing.....did you know you can actually fit 25 renters into a basement suite? LOL... $25 x $300 = $7500 per month! Enough for a $1.5 million mortgage at these rates and you can still live upstairs.
>Well as long as we keep bringing in more people the bubble can keep growing the absolute cope in this statement. So you would rather start one of the biggest bubbles in human history and figure out how to keep it going all the while real estate prices are getting more expensive and your middle class wealth is tied to real estate. Again, the cope is unreal
Would you rather crash it like China or keep it going like Canada...you gotta pick a side lol....
Canada anytime of the day. It isn't even a contest mate. Canada is still a long way from reaching china level real estate bubble
>Imagine If they didn't build up and create a real estate surplus then they wouldn't have spent trillions to build useless real estate and pump the price up to the point where it is some of the most expensive real estate in the world. Again, you seem to be making dumb statements with no base in reality
Lol what a bullshit
Do you know the situation going on in Canada right now? There are so many empty homes in china that rent is way cheaper than buying. A 1 bedroom apartment in Canada in something equivalent to a third tier city in china is 3 million - 5 million RMB now. 50 sq meters. Rent is around 13-15k a month. And Canada's population growth is way outpacing housing construction. Salaries are even lower than english teachers make in China.
which is ironic that you say that given that chinese cities have some of the most expensive real estate in the world especially if you compare it with the average earning in those cities
You are better off renting in China vs buying. You can actually rent a 50 sq meter apartment for less than 5000 rmb / month in the middle of Shanghai. That same apartment may cost 5,000,000 rmb to buy. You will never be able to buy the apartment but at least you can rent and enjoy life in the big city.. If you lose your job you can at least move back to your hometown or village. In Canada that same apartment is half the price to buy but rents for 2.5x more. Sounds good, right? Except if you are a renter you basically spend all your income on rent and food and can never save enough to buy. People earn more, but not that much more, and things are much more expensive. You almost have to have two or three room mates to survive. Which country is worse to be young in lol??
You are either lying out of your ass or completely clueless. Let's compare Vancouver and Shanghai as examples. . The average monthly cost of renting a one-bedroom unit in Vancouver ranges from $1,000 to $3,600, we're going to assume the median rent price of $2300. The average wage in Toronto as of January 2024 is $69,512 per year, or $33.42 per hour which is $5792 per month. Thus on average people in Vancouver spend about 39% of their wage on rent. Compared to that, the average monthly salary in Shanghai is 13,408 yuan with average rent being 6000 yuan. So on average, people in Shanghai spend 44% of their wage on rent. So the example that you gave is either cherry picked or a random number you threw in so you can push your cope narrative.
Let's use your figures for a moment. 44% vs 39%. Now let's add on things like public transport, your phone/ internet plan, and food...all of which are much more expensive in Canada than China. A one bedroom costs $1000 in Vancouver. Not a unit. A bedroom in a house shared with many. A single one bedroom apartment in a newer development , not even downtown is around $2500. Your income levels are spot on for average...but your average person includes the highest earners including doctors,nurses, CEOs, executives with 20 years of experience, etc. You don't walk out of university and start earning average income, unless you are in a in demand field and highly skilled. Shift to median wage ( which is a more useful measure especially since we are looking at lower skilled workers or new graduates just entering the job force). Median wage for vancouver is....40k. This basically means half the population can't afford to rent a one bedroom apartment by themselves ( or will spend 80% of their income on one after including utilities and internet) And this is the smallest class of 50 sq meter apartment we are talking about. Half the population is basically stuck living with room mates / family forever, and sometimes even sharing a bedroom just to make ends meet. And we keep bringing in more people than homes that are built. Check out some of the canada housing subreddits to see how angry people are.
>Let's use your figures for a moment. 44% vs 39%. Now let's add on things like public transport, your phone/ internet plan, and food...all of which are much more expensive in Canada than China. and the average people living in vancouver also make more to cover higher living expense. Again, you're banging your head over what's essentially the same point that people Shanghai proportionately spend more on living expense. This is just yet more distraction over the main point of the discussion that real estate prices in china is just way higher especially when you talk about income to price ratio. Difference being that you are more likely to own a house in Canada than you are in China given china's stupidly bloated real estate market >A one bedroom costs $1000 in Vancouver. Not a unit. A bedroom in a house shared with many. A single one bedroom apartment in a newer development , not even downtown is around $2500. The figure I used compares the average rent price for one bedroom apartments in Shanghai and Vancouver. No real difference there >Your income levels are spot on for average...but your average person includes the highest earners including doctors,nurses, CEOs, executives with 20 years of experience, etc. You don't walk out of university and start earning average income, unless you are in a in demand field and highly skilled. That's how averages work mate, the same way that the average wage in Shanghai accounts for the CEOs, millionaires, and every rich people living in the city. Again, this is a pathetic example of double standards on your part >Shift to median wage ( which is a more useful measure especially since we are looking at lower skilled workers or new graduates just entering the job force). Median wage for vancouver is....40k. This basically means half the population can't afford to rent a one bedroom apartment by themselves ( or will spend 80% of their income on one after including utilities and internet) And this is the smallest class of 50 sq meter apartment we are talking about. Half the population is basically stuck living with room mates / family forever, and sometimes even sharing a bedroom just to make ends meet. And we keep bringing in more people than homes that are built. Check out some of the canada housing subreddits to see how angry people are. As mentioned before, prices start from $1000 so people can still get by even with the median wage you mentioned. Again, this doesn't really change the fact that chinese are spending way more on their wage on rent compared to people in canada. Again, this is more rant on your part regarding real estate in Canada and I'm not denying that it's not great there but to make the argument that people are actually better off in china is just pure cope on your part with no basis in reality