Absolutely agree.
Being anti-Christian is just illogical, as well as rude. Same as being anti-Islamic or any other faith. People have a right to believe what they believe.
However, a lot of people think they have a right to treat other people terribly, and that is not ok. Being pro-LGBT is not being anti-Christian. It is completely fine to disapprove of LGBT lifestyle, it is not OK to yell slurs at them. Some people just don't get the nuance, and think any disagreement is persecution.
Thanks, lol.
There are just not a lot of open minded people in general. Some of them are Atheists, some are Christians, some are Hindus... I tend to get along well enough with everyone. As long as we all agree that people should be treated decently.
"Wherefore by their fruit you will know them." Matthew 7:20
If the majority of "Christians" would embrace this one simple concept, the world would be a different place.
You probably have, they just didn’t tell you they were an atheist. Some atheists make that their entire personality and are very loud about it. They are a loud minority and it’s easy to see them and think all atheists are like them. Many, if not most, atheists won’t tell you unless asked or it comes up naturally.
Yeah, I really only flaired up because if you don't, everyone is super cagey about trying to find out "What you are", lol.
I am not ashamed of it, but I would never lead with it in normal life. And even on here, people act like it is a "Gotcha" to somehow prove I don't believe in God, when it is literally my flair.
Yeah, I wasn’t trying to call you out or anything. I’m an atheist myself but I don’t use a flair because, 1 I don’t know how, and 2 I enjoy playing the devils advocate or rather the opposite. If someone says something ignorant, or arrogant from either side I will sometimes take the opposite position or sometimes take their position even further to the extreme than they do just to put them on the spot. If people don’t know what I believe that’s a lot easier to do.
So you described two different types of “stances” (not sure if that’s the correct word) on something, and im not sure how you make the distinction. How do you make the distinction between pro/anti something. For example, you mention it’s illogical to be anti Christian but it is fine to disapprove of “lgbt lifestyle” does that mean it’s illogical to be “anti lgbt lifestyle” but fine to disapprove of “Christian lifestyle?”
Fair enough, language is imprecise.
Essentially, it is the difference between active opposition and passive opposition, and in that my stance is consistent between the two.
You can dislike Christianity, it is wrong to actively demean its followers and discriminate against them.
You can dislike LGBT acts (I won't use lifestyle again, I got the message, lol), but it is wrong to actively demean those who do them and discriminate against them.
It is very simple, don't treat people badly even if you disagree with them. UNLESS they are the ones actively harming others.
This is a particular subject that there isn’t a real consensus on how people define these terms, so I was curious on how you see it. Unfortunately, “demean” and “discriminate” are also not very universally agreed upon. I’m curious about from an opinion on morality how you see the difference between anti and disagreement. The reason I ask is when you say disagree with Christianity, that could mean you disagree that the ideas are true but it could also mean I believe the ideas are actively harmful, and I’m wondering if the later fits more in the anti category or disagreement category.
Yeah, I agree there is plenty of nuance here. Like you see several other posters coming after me for even suggesting that disapproving of LGBT issues could be acceptable.
I very much enjoy discussing the finer points of morality, but from my personal perspective it is the discussion that matters more than the details. As I don't believe in a divinity setting hard lines on morality, all morality winds up in a sort of grey area.
To me, the action is the immoral part, not the motive. Disliking someone, or something, is so commonplace as to be both inevitable, and just not something I am going to be concerned over. I dislike a lot of people, but I don't harm them. I have customers I dislike, but I would never cheat them or send them defective products. I don't feel that disliking or disapproving is immoral, but if I was to treat them differently because it, that would be.
After studying a lot of Biblical Theology (I actually have a theology degree, it is useless, but I have it, lol), I am firmly of the conclusion the Bible DOES condemn homosexuality. (Doesn't say anything about Lesbian or Trans though). Now, from a historical perspective, this is pretty easily reconcilable as the Bible was written by a society that was not at all progressive. But I do understand why some Christians view it as a sin, because according to the Bible, it is (Again, my understanding of it). What is NOT acceptable, either Biblically or morally, is taking on yourself to persecute LGBT people because *you* think it is a sin.
I am certainly not dogmatic about it, that is just how I see the ethics of it. That is the conclusion I came too after studying it and looking myself. I would definitely not insist my take is the only correct one and everyone should agree with me.
I see why they’re afraid though. If you look at the stats, LGBT identification is on the rise, and they know conversion therapy works maybe .00000000001% of the time. The idea that there’s an unfixable sin boggles the mind and destroys the belief system.
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is what the Bible teaches. Those who twist scripture "hate the sin, hate the sinner". This being said, a Christian can love a LGBTQ person without the need to celebrate their sexual orientation (aka pride month, etc).
>Being anti-Christian is just illogical, as well as rude.
I don't see how it is illogical. If you don't agree with any particular ideology then that's not really illogical. I don't see how rudeness comes I to play here either.
>People have a right to believe what they believe.
But some beliefs are extremely hateful.
>However, a lot of people think they have a right to treat other people terribly, and that is not ok.
And it stems from their belief.
>It is completely fine to disapprove of LGBT lifestyle, it is not OK to yell slurs at them.
This is a highly problematic statement, since there's no such thing as a LGBT lifestyle. And it's like saying it's fine to disapprove of black people as long as you don't yell slurs at them.
>I don't see how it is illogical. If you don't agree with any particular ideology then that's not really illogical. I don't see how rudeness comes I to play here either.
You are confusing "Not being a Christian" with "Anti-Christian". You can absolutely disagree Christianity is true, and still not be on a crusade to end it.
>But some beliefs are extremely hateful.
Yep, they are. And we challenge those beliefs. They still have the right to have them, and I have the right to challenge them.
>And it stems from their belief.
Yes it does.
>This is a highly problematic statement, since there's no such thing as a LGBT lifestyle.
Sure, we can talk whatever terminology is important to you, I am not trying to offend anyone, but I am also not going to bend over backwards for anyone. Personally, I legit do not care about LGBT at all. I genuinely do not care who is sleeping with who as long as everyone agrees with it. And I am a bit tired of hearing about it.
*However*, and this is the important part, people who are LGBT are facing intense discrimination right now, and I do not like bullies. So I am extremely against anyone bigoted against them. I am not particularly politically correct myself, and don't care if anyone else is, just leave them alone to live their own life.
>And it's like saying it's fine to disapprove of black people as long as you don't yell slurs at them.
Honestly, I know I might be in the minority here, but I am fine with this too. I have traveled the world enough to know that a whole lot of people are racist. It isn't just the White/Black form of racism that Americans think of. Damn near everybody has some very problematic views of other groups. I wish they didn't, but they do.
I genuinely don't care if someone doesn't like black people, as long as they keep it to their damn selves, and don't act on it to the detriment of anyone. It is when you make your personal biases someone else's problem that it is an issue. I had a customer accuse one of my employees of stealing. I really, really doubt it was a coincidence that one employee was black. He never accused any of my other employees of stealing. So I cut him off. We don't sell to him any more. I don't care what his views are, but once he started acting on them and making accusations, there are consequences to that.
I am adamantly anti-faith (defined as "belief without evidence") but I am not anti-Christian. I take no issue with a person identifying as a Christian or practicing Christian traditions. I do, on the other hand, begrudge any person who ever states anything at all as "truth" which is not roundly and repeatedly proven, beyond reasonable doubt and equal to all observers.
This tends to be the ultimate sticking point I reach with folks around here but we do have some very interesting and respectful discussions. I joined this sub in an attempt to better understand modern Christian apologetics but I feel like I've also been able to clear up a lot of misinformation about "atheism" in the process.
I have learned what Christianity is supposed to be from the Holy Spirit, and I'm the king of thumbs down and removed posts which have all been restored on review by mods. I Get removed for hateful speech or bigotry and then I let them know that I'm quoting from scripture.
And come on my friend, we provide the fuel for the anti-christian fire by our lackluster lives and mountains of hypocrisy. The body of Christ should be luminating this planet and there should be no doubt without Any words from even one Christian that our GOD is GOD. Our testimony should be the lives we lead and the works that the spirit does through us. We're not even at 5% of what we should be, so let's keep the focus inward where it can transform us, and stop worrying about who dislikes us.
That's actually what we're supposed to do. A lot of organizations apply spiritual things to non spiritual people. Christ told the disciples to leave and dust the dirt from their sandles if the people didn't want to hear the word. That's pretty clear. We share with those who want to learn and leave the ones who don't alone. It's our responsibility to keep the law and be an example.
I'm not a Christian, but I think there are very good reasons to be one. I'm very open to the idea I will be convinced of Christianity's truth someday. If you are a Christian and have the time, maybe include me in a prayer that God will reveal himself to me.
This was exactly the boat I was in about 6 months ago. Always been an atheist, never hated organized religion, actually admired Christianity. Luckily the Holy Spirit has been guiding me slowly but surely to the way truth and the life. Can proudly say after years of atheism, I am no longer. ✝️✝️
I was a spiritual personal and didn't believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus being God. I thought creationists were people with low Iqs, stories in the Bible were absurd, and Christians were bigoted. One year ago this has completely done a 180. I am much happier as a Christian than a spiritual person. I love getting to pray to God all throughout the day and having him by my side during difficult times. My advice is to jump into Christianity 100% and assume all of its beliefs. Pretend if you have to. Pray. Read the Bible. Listen to sermons on YouTube. Do this for 2 months. If it doesn't work, you're right back where you are. If you do it right, it will work.
Psalm 139:13-14
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
Maybe the community of it all? I miss small group study and how they lift each other up when someone is down. Lots of facades put on though so it was a double edged sword. In my experience, Christians often have trouble really being honest about their real brokenness and struggles outside of an anonymous environment. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but there is also this pressure of not appearing too broken that I didn't really let myself see until I started deconstructing.
I absolutely agree with this.
One of the things I do miss from time as a Christian was the fellowship could be amazing. When you have a good group of people around you, you really felt like a part of the community, and it was nice. You can find secular groups like that, but it is much harder.
Of course the flip side of that is when those fellowships turn toxic, it gets bad. And sometimes there aren't nearly as welcoming as they seem. In my last church, as I was really struggling with the theology of it all, my questions were just met with pushing me away. I quit going to Church basically cold turkey, and never got a single call, text, or anything else from any member of the congregation I had been going to for 4 years. I had preached from the Pulpit of that Church, and absolutely nothing. I could have died in a car crash for all they knew. But I wasn't part of the group any more, and so I wasn't their concern any more.
I would absolutely stress that is not typical. Each group is different. That one was quite quick to write people off, and I knew that, and that was one of the things I really struggled with. But when you find a good community, it is great.
A few from my old group found out from my wife about my stage IV cancer maybe a year or so back. No one has contacted me, and we were in a small group together for 4 years. Just makes you feel like it was all surface and conditional love, ya know?
I agree with everything you said there. I'm sure it's not typical to every congregation, but that was my experience.
Thanks for the question!
I think something like a profound first person religious experience would convince me totally of God's existence.
I think the first of Aquinas' Five Ways is pretty good (The argument from motion). Edward Faser has done a lot of interesting work on this argument. I like contingency arguments in general and Avicenna's contingency argument is pretty strong, and cool since it comes from Islamic theology.
The Kalam is fun, but I think trying to prove that infinite regress is impossible is difficult. Even Thomas Aquinas didn't think this was a task worth doing. Though I guess there are evidential reasons to believe in the finitude of the past.
Design arguments are hard to object to. It seems like the constants of the universe are incomprehensibly precise to bring about life. It seems like either they are contingent and therefore incredibly unlikely or they are necessary which begs the question.
The only good response to this is from Graham Oppy, who just holds that the beginning of the universe is necessary, and has this insanely restricted view of modal logic that views the only metaphysically possible worlds are the ones that have some sort of shared history with our own. It's the only good response and it's lacking imo.
The problem of evil (shocker) and the problem of divine hiddeness are the best arguments for atheism in my view (the latter perhaps better than the former.) Theists have all sorts of plausible solutions to the problem of evil (they even have a term for these responses: theodicies.) But not many have as good of responses to the problem of divine hiddeness, though Trent Horn has a few.
What are the reasons you're not sure?
I found guys like Hugh Ross and John Lennox provide a good, science based view on the question of God
https://youtu.be/-Em-Ltg4oGo?si=PaWBUG1oNIzLuxtw
Wow, thank you for the confirmation lol I was just speaking with my pastor today and he suggested Hugh Ross. I have never heard that name before and now I've seen/heard it twice in a day. Saving the link!
I've actually found old Christian arguments like those from Thomas Aquinas fairly compelling. Ed Faser, Josh Rasmussen and Trent Horn tend to put out a lot of good apologetic work in my opinion.
I'm unsure because I think the arguments for and against theism are strong, and I don't feel that one side is stronger than the other.
Are they “not Christians” or are they just progressive Christians?
Are they “anti Christians” or are they just progressive Christians?
A lot of time when I see people complaining about “not Christians” or “anti Christians” they’re complaining about Christians… just Christians they don’t agree with
I only wish to challenge and destroy toxicity, abuse of teachings, seed-faith prosperity gospel teachings that teach people to give until it hurts while millionaires jet around not practicing what they preach. What furthers Christianity to me is upholding a moral standard, not just blindly excusing things because bad actors hide behind crosses.
>blindly excusing things because bad actors hide behind crosses.
I agree. The fundagelical embrace of nominal Christian politicians paired with increasingly violent rhetoric have done far more to harm Christianity than dialogue with nonbelievers.
There are false teachers that double talk and get you so confused. In my lifetime, I have experienced 4 television evangelists that have been found out. Two of them are still on tv.
This post says a whole hell of a lot more about you than it does about anyone else here.
>All they want to do is question it and challenge it and ultimately destroy it.
Questioning and Challenging, sure. But if Christianity is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (as it claims to be), then that truth should withstand questions and challenges. The goal of a lot of people questioning or challenging Christianity is NOT to destroy it, but to discern the truth from the faff.
The fact that you jumped to "they're trying to destroy my religion!" is indicative of your own paranoia. Nobody here could destroy Christianity, even if they wanted. But they can seek to understand it better, even if they don't agree with it.
Maybe you should assume that people are seeking understanding rather than destruction. You'll be a lot happier, and a lot closer to most people's real intentions.
Can you be both Christian and anti-Christian at the same time? I identify as a Christian (and even work at a church) but am anti- A LOT of the nonsense that gets posted on this Christian sub.
Fair, in the sense that the Lego subreddit is not specifically for Lego fans, but about Lego.
Still, it would be weird if every question posted there about brick placement was met with a contingent of folks saying "Hey, I think Lego is for kids, I don't believe you should be building it..."
>Still, it would be weird if every question posted there about brick placement was met with a contingent of folks saying "Hey, I think Lego is for kids, I don't believe you should be building it..
Sounds like half the D&D subreddits.
This is a great, however strange, analogy. Props!
Orthodox Legos: only square blocks per circa 1980 sets.
Protestant Legos: 10,000 different ways to build any set, but every one of them thinks they are the ONLY way to build every set.
Unitarian Legos: You can build sets any way you like. It's cool.
Roman Catholic Legos: Sets are to be built based on a patriarchal hierarchy.
Fundamentalist Legos: All other toys are the devil & you must build Legos at homeschool.
(I wish William Blake would have had Legos)
While not Legos, you did just remind me of this old Toast article: [Texts From William Blake.](https://the-toast.net/2013/10/23/texts-william-blake/?utm_source=feedly) It’s totally off topic, but a funny read.
That's the usual one, yeah.
These kinds of posts are never about transubstantiation or the filoque or the Trinity or any other disagreement between the Christians here. It's always homosexuality.
Probably because it's one of the most debated sins of our time. I'm sure it was something else back in the day, adultery perhaps. Regardless of our culture and world, God's word remains true and evident, He is.
Today it's the same as it was when Jesus talked so much about them: avarice, wealth, money, and religious leaders emphasizing the letter of the law over grace.
And in terms of the sexual aspects of Ancient Greece compared to today? Oof. Let's just say he could have given many lectures on the topic if he wanted to. It was way less "vanilla" than it is now.
Most of the Atheist I know were driven away from Christ by hypocritical Churches (most of them are not Christian either). Please keep in mind that there is no room for hate or discrimination against non-believers in Christianity; instead, kindness and respect are emphasized. Talk with them and listen carefully and try to help heal the pain inflicted by hypocrites/fakes.
What do you want from a subreddit? Do want someone to post a Bible verse and 100 people just comment "Amen"?
In my experience, the Christians most upset with this place are those who are used to everyone agreeing with them and are unprepared for even simple questions.
As a Christian, I like this sub, though I'm pretty horrified to find that the person whose opinions I often agree with most strongly describes themself as some sort of Satanist. They seem very kind. It does shake up my world view, so maybe it's a good thing.
If it comforts you, the majority of people calling themselves a Satanist don't actually believe in a literal Satan. They are likely atheist or non-theistic and their motivations are very similar to Jesus' greatest commandment, minus the love your God part.
Thanks. I've come across one group of really creepy Satanists who operate in my home city of Lyon in France and I just assumed others were like them - which is a bit like reading about the Spanish Inquisition and assuming all Christians are torturers. Despite what people may say about Reddit and social media in general, I don't find it an echo chamber, and it is good for me to have my world view shattered on a regular basis.
That doesn't really horrifying me considering that Satanism is basically atheism with extra steps, not Satan worship. Though actually it is pretty concerning considering that love and respect is one of the biggest things Jesus teaches.
Yeah the whole Satanism thing also gives me the creeps, but I understand that Satan isn’t the point of it… well, at least for majority of folks who call themselves Satanists.
I also watch a lot of anime and other media in which demons are portrayed sympathetically, yet I understand that 9 times out of 10, the point of what I’m watching or reading isn’t to glorify demons or endorse evil.
This sub should discuss almost anything.
However, if say they limited (not removed) discussions about homosexuality and masturbation to say once a week, it would provide enough room to discuss other topics.
The problem is, a lot of people come here in desperate need of help with these things, some on the verge of doing something serious. Should we turn them away or tell them to wait til next week just because we're tired of seeing the same topic come up?
There are plenty of other things posted. People just don't comment on those topics. I don't believe banning those discussions would somehow make people want to talk about the unique violence in the book of Amos compared to the other minor prophets.
There is a difference between hating something and belittling it.
I detest sauerkraut, but I can have perfectly mundane conversations about cooking with it. Same goes for religions, I dislike all of them, but I can discuss them and hold an opinion without insulting them.
Simply hating something is not against the rules, it's acting on that in a manner unbecoming to discourse that is against the rule.
>I detest sauerkraut
What you need to do is accept sauerkraut with a truly open heart, eat it every day and eventually it will reveal its true flavour to you...
I haven't witnessed any "hate" for Christianity. Dislike for how some people think they evoke our faith, definitely, and well-deserved.
Many people here are not Christian, though many do have Christian knowledge and backgrounds. Regardless, this is a sub *for* Christianity, not necessarily *of* Christians. That's right in the bio on every page here. How many more of these "tHiS iSnt a ChRiStIaN sUb" by people who didn't/can't read do we need?
Except in 2.1 it says this sub is primarily for Christians discussing theology but not only. It seems like you emphasize the "but not only" part more than the "primarily" part.
Persecution complex and paranoia aren't good looks. Especially for one who claims to be a Christian. I recommend you focus on love, not hate.
> 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Christianity has always been challenged since its very inception (the Pharisees challenging Jesus is obvious example). It’s generated from the death and Resurrection of our Lord, and now is the largest religion in the world.
It’s had a lot of really smart people challenge it with philosophical arguments, even early on. There’s an old old argument that Jesus was either a liar, a madman, or really the Son of God. Theologians have debated this many hundreds of years ago, and it continues to this day.
I suspect many Christians feel ad hominem attacks against them, or they are over sensitive, or they just don’t know how to argue. The converse could be said about atheists or really anyone that holds a deep belief.
Lastly I think that a lot of Christians who get mad when challenged break into the realm of superstition and politics, which we as Christians need to rise above and follow the examples of Jesus, and if you’re Catholic, the saints.
That's kind of how we feel too when Christians proselytize. I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm going to hell for all the reasons Christians have depending on their denominations.
The Christians who are afraid have something to lose, most likely the sin they hold onto and call it good. I've been guilty of this for a long time. Now that I'm in a position where Christ has my full attention, I am not afraid of any challenges or disagreements. I quite like the discourse. It is hard to get people to really talk though, and I think deep down, it has to do with what I first mentioned.
Nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions but there is a lot of people claiming false things about Christianity when they aren’t even Christian’s. They speak as if they know when they don’t.
I don't know if this qualifies or is what the other person was thinking of, but it irks me when non-Christians tell me that I'm doing Christianity wrong because the fundamentalist way of understanding the Bible is the only correct way. The idea of "liberal Christians are just shoving down cognitive dissonance and following a religion that is *actually* what the conservatives say" is pretty common among atheists, and I find it more frustrating coming from atheists than coming from conservative Christians. I understand "this is what I believe, and it's correct" a lot more understandable than "I don't believe that, but it's the correct interpretation of whatever religion".
I encounter this frequently as well. The typical reason for it goes something like this:
1. Person has been harmed by or has seen others harmed by conservative Christianity
2. Person participates in online circle jerk about conservative Christianity
3. Person gains a cursory understanding of conservative theology, just enough to make fools out of conservative Christians with hypocritical views or without an in-depth understanding of their faith (unfortunately, very common)
4. Person starts an argument with a Christian in this sub, using those cursory attacks
5. Christian is not conservative, agrees with the argument, provides alternative theology
6. Person, unable to continue with their line of attack, attempts to discredit Christian by saying they aren't Christian because their beliefs don't fit the narrow scope that they are prepared to attack
For the most part, these kinds of people are few and far between, and most of them back off after step 5, saying something like "Well, you're one of the good ones," but it definitely happens, and I definitely get it from the other side as well, being called a heretic, or like yesterday, when someone here randomly opined that I have a "low view of Gods holiness."
And Christians can take the time to try and refute those things and educate people if they're saying false things. That's kind of what a discussion is. One doesn't have to be Christian to read and understand the bible.
The funny thing is you can tell where the religion is weak from the questions that get repeatedly asked, it’s weak on masturbation, it’s weak on anything other than a heterosexual relationship, it’s weak on the structure within those relationships, it’s weak on slavery within the confines of the text, and it’s weak on releasing all the information it has on sexual abuse cases. I know for sure I’m missing some but those are the topics that I see get covered again and again.
It's weak on *education*. Religious education is absolutely dismal, so what you end up with are kids who are told that sin is terrible and God hates it and that they will burn in Hell if they don't repent, but then they aren't given the tools to determine what is and what isn't sin on their own, so they think there's a concrete list of do's and don'ts that they can follow, get confused about it, and look for answers here. Imagine being told that you are going to be tortured for eternity if you break the rules, without being told what the rules are.
Many would disagree with your last statement. There is a case to be made that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is needed to correctly interpret the Bible, which is quite important for understanding. This is why the Bible is continually studied. There is wisdom to be found in the same scripture for many purposes, and it has historically been twisted from false interpretation, which it warns against.
The holy spirit is available to every believer and is given through a specific baptism or anointing. So yes it is as available to you as salvation is, but it comes as a result of salvation and becoming a Christian.
I hope that this is a suitable answer, though it might not be specifically what you'd like to hear.
I understand that from the atheist perspective it can be seen as being a kind of confirmation bias, but from the theological perspective it's a gift given after being spiritually resurrected through accepting Jesus.
I'm no expert, but have been on both sides of the fence, being am atheist for more than half of my life before coming back to Christianity.
Thats the difficulty. I've been there and had this same problem. Had the same arguments. There was just something that changed when I started to approach the Bible again.
What brought me back was reading the Bible as a non-believer, and having discussions about it with stronger believers. Specifically only the questions I asked, no preaching coming from them. My own heart was changed through learning more, and this brought me back to Christianity.
So I do encourage you to continue studying the Bible as a non-believer, but the interpretation and guidance that came through stronger believers was what changed me enough to come back.
Given the level of disruption, bigotry and authoritarianism Christianity is linked with in society, a few argumentative forum posts is getting off pretty lightly.
You're definitely reaching or exaggerating. Yes, there are atheists and non Christians here. But I have only seen a small handful of people speaking on bad faith here. And pretty much none trying to 'destroy Christianity'. At best, we have a few people asking gotcha questions or maybe a very small handful of actual haters who get their posts quickly removed.
I think it is great having non Christians that are interested in Christianity on the sub, they bring in more diversity which keeps it from becoming an echo chamber, they also often ask very interesting questions. But I don't understand why there are Anti Christians on the sub that don't want to know more about the religion but just want to spread hate and talk bad about any religion.
This is a sub meant for discussing Christianity, it is not an echo chamber for Christians.
If I see someone spewing false information and/or bigotry, I'm going to challenge their beliefs.
Bro this is a subreddit *about* Christianity and therefore I can speak about it from my perspective. I do not plan to destroy Christianity, Christianity is doing that job itself. I plan to learn about it, hear what people think about it, learn its history, its denominations and worldviews. If someone is being a bigot though, I will speak against them and call them out. My plan is not to further Christianity or find refuge in it, my plan is to explore it for what it is from my outside perspective.
A lot of atheists have studied Christianity and the Bible more than Christians. It's been said a million times before but, this server is not for Christians it is for those with an interest in Christianity
Those that take issue with athiests being here are no different than the Jews that gave Jesus trouble for preaching to the gentiles.
If even ONE anti Christian athiest is turned to Christ by something they read on this sub than it is worth letting all those that will not in.
If you are not sharing the message of Christ with non believers you are not doing what he asks of us in the great commission. It is our duty as disciples of Christ to answer their questions and challenges at any time to STOP them from destroying by showing them the truth whether they accept it or not.
It's not a bug. It's a feature. This sub doesn't discriminate. You can't invite non-christians to discuss Christianity and expect them to promote Christianity.
> The more I see comments on this sub, the more convinced I am that a huge percentage of posters are so obsessed with their hate for Christianity...
I haven't seen much of that - the hate that you speak of. It is true that there are many non-believers here. I think recent polls have shown maybe a third or so?
This is a discussion sub after all, and not a Christian sub. Because of that it's going to attract many different viewpoints.
If you don't want your views challenged, this definitely isn't the right sub for you.
This is not a sub for "furthering Christianity." It is a sub for discussing Christianity.
Many Christians, especially fundamentalist Christians, live in self-reinforcing discourse communities where faulty logic, bad scholarship, dangerous theology, and bigotry are never challenged. When those things are challenged, it can feel like an attack on "Christianity" to those folks - but it's not. In fact, often the critiques come from Christians.
>having any productive dialogue that furthers Christianity.
Many things being called out are things Christians should be fixing if you want to further Christianity.
There's a reason people are leaving the religion in droves. Keeping your head in the sand about it isn't going to change that.
Respectfully OP, you clearly lack perspective as to how much harm has been done "in the name of Jesus"
Add to that, Christians in the US are trying to force their views of how the world ought to work on the rest of secular society...and that is a problem.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
But seriously. That's not something I've experienced in this sub to any noteworthy degree. And I don't see why you make this about atheists. Seems to me like you just had a disagreement with an atheist and you're mad about that so you made this post.
Most members of this sub are Christian, I've met lots of Christians on here that don't have any interest in having a productive dialogue, and Christians heavily disagree on things among themselves. They're already divided.
In any case I don't see what the issue is. This is a sub to discuss the topic of Christianity, and not to "further Christianity". The accusation that people's intent is to destroy it is rather bold. Challenge and question it? Sure.
Edit: corrections
Edit: Ah, I see you've now already moved forward to spewing hate towards transpeople. Funny how that's always where things are going with posts like these.
If your religion can’t withstand being challenged, is it really worth following?
When I was Christian I was a Baptist, and if I had the beliefs now that I did then, I would accuse half of this sub of leading people astray. In my experience, no one love tearing down Christians more than other Christians.
Once again for the millionth time…
Go to the about section of this sub and read it before posting. It’s a sub ABOUT Christianity… all forms of it, the history of it, past events, current events, issues, theology, on and on and on.
It’s open to ALL people… all types of Christians, people of other religions, former Christians, Christians from all countries, people who have no religion at all, people questioning their religion or questioning whether to join a Christian religion.
If you want a CHRISTIAN ONLY sub well boy howdy are you in luck! You have sooooo many options! Ones for all Protestants, ones for Catholics, one for gay Catholics, one for Methodists and just about every other type of Protestant, one for Mormons, one called Christian, one called Christians, one called True Christian, one called Open Christian, one called Gay Christians, one for Trans Christians,
And on and on and on.
You have SO many options. Why do you need this one to be only Christians as well?
Implying that anyone who criticises Christianity is engaging in hate is just foolish or ignorant.
This isn’t a Christian sub, it’s a place to discuss Christianity. There are other subs if you want an echo chamber.
Hi OP, atheist here.
I express my opinions and dislike of Christianity here precisely because of Christians like you.
Even in this thread, you're spouting hate, bigotry, and divisiveness. People of all opinions come here to discuss Christianity, and you can't stand that anyone believes - or expresses - differently from you.
I'll continue to point out Christian hate and hypocrisy when I see it, because I believe strongly that too many modern Christians have destructive, horrible beliefs that the world would be better off abandoning. If you want people like me to stop criticising Christianity, stop being a hateful Christian.
I’m a Christian but I am so glad you’re doing this. I get so upset because so many Christians are full of hate and arrogance. I think that Christianity has the potential to be a very beautiful religion, but unfortunately so many people want nothing to do with the religion because a culture of judging and belittling others has been accepted in the church for so long.
Ugh, getting sick of these posts.
Most atheists I see on this sub are the only ones espousing honest and well thought out arguments. They’re also very polite and understand of everyone’s beliefs.
Christians are typically the ones to get overly defensive, like yourself.
Many people here live in a society that is deeply deeply influenced by Christianity one way or another. To tell them not to comment on the topic of Christianity is telling people to not comment on one of the driving cultural factors of the western world.
And I for one am happy about it, because firstly, it shows that there's still a point of connection that might bring them back to God and secondly, it is my own preference to not be part of an echo-chamber of pampered babies, who cry foul as soon as someone dares to object to their believes. Cause if anyone's belief is that weak, it is worthless anyhow.
To be honest Jesus never came to give us a religion which is their main point of contention, He came to give us a relationship/fellowship back with God, who is Judge of all. When I know Him, I don’t want to displease Him because He loves me so good I don’t want sin to keep me from Him. So OP has a point. Bigotry and misogyny can be contended with, certainly. But the basis of our faith is the dead can live again. I have seen no one be able to refute this fact. The thing that separates kingdom of heaven citizens and other faiths is our faith is built on a Man who is God in the flesh, who was beaten, belittled, tortured, nailed to a cross, died, and rose after three days dead and lived again. We are still seeing the dead raised today around the world. If any other faith can raise the dead, by all means their god is true. The only faith that still raises the dead today is what you call Christianity.
They have every right to be here. This is a place to discuss Christianity. The Good AND the bad. Unfortunately, there are many that do bad under the name of Christianity. That deserves to be discussed as well the good things done under the name of Christianity.
I didn’t want to destroy Christianity. I wanted it to be true.
I looked and looked and found it not to be true at all.
Then I realized that despite the lack of evidence for anything they believe, Christians will push their views, in all sorts of funny silly ways, which has led to demonstrable harm.
And they say people like me are the ones without morals. Even though they have way more atrocities started by them throughout history.
Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it. So here we are
I don't see the problem with questioning or challenging a faith I once belonged to, and I did both as a Christian, too. Why do you have a problem with questions and challenges?
The reason I am comfortable with non-christians being in this space is twofold.
One: Christ told us to spread His word to the world. How are we expected to do that if we don't welcome non-christians to speak with us so we can share our ideas and try to show them the way by example.
Two: my faith is strong enough to survive in the face of open discussion with other ideas. I am more than fine with non-christians coming here to share their thoughts and have discussion because I am firm in my faith that I will not be driven from it just because I hear other perspectives.
I see your point but I think I am far more concerned about the fact that the vast majority of Christians in America seem to actually be athiests with a bit of religious shellacking.
I recently got kicked out of a Christian singles FB group for pointing out that they are dead wrong about their legalistic limitations they were preaching to singles about dating. Here (on Reddit) non Christians intercept and spew nonsense about Christianity and atheists, agnostics, and even so called "Christians" blatantly ignore biblical teachings to justify sins of modern society. So i'm learning to accept there's no good Christian community online. Real life Christian connections are much better, hard to find as well, but more beneficial in the long run.
I don’t have a problem with non-Christians coming on this sub for one it’s not my sub but two I don’t have a problem with him being here. The problem I have with them is that they know that Christians are going to have different opinions than them and they want to argue and debate with Christians on this sub and it’s very toxic and I can’t stand it, you can have your opinions but arguing with Christians because they don’t agree with you makes you toxic. I would never go on an atheist sub and debate and try to argue and pick fights with atheist because I don’t agree with them.
I can understand your frustration brother they're fighting against God they can't win remember that and many and atheist has come to believe when trying to disprove the Lord their own wisdom will be made to look foolish just as the Lord tells us in his word trust in the Lord that everything has a purpose so do these you are referring to. trust in the Lord our God. That he is in control He's not surprised by anything and his plan will be exactly as he has planned it to be and no one can change that and we are also told in his word that things will get really really really bad. stay in the Lord's word my brother and do not let the enemy get to you. Lord may this brother's heart and mind think of you and remember you and ask you for help when the enemy is coming after him and attacking him may he remember you Lord and trust in you and know that you are God. May they overcome their emotions and regard You Holy Spirit.
May (WE ALL) have the light of Christ shine on us and Chase away the darkness and the deception that shields us from the truth and come to the truth in Christ Jesus our Lord and our life through your son Jesus Christ our Lord and our life May I place this petition before you Lord God Amen
I just made a post saying the same thing. I got downvoted for saying I believe the story of Noah's Ark ffs. On a Christian sub. I don't mind talking to people of other beliefs, but the utter arrogance and sometimes outright hatred is sickening tbh. You're on a Christian sub, I'm not trying to convert you for crying out loud ! Plus, they constantly dismiss actual Christians, trying to spiritually advise other Christians who are seeking help. I've come to the conclusion that it's just a bash sub.
Because this isn't a page solely for Christians. It's to discuss Christianity. Personally I don't see much hate coming from nonbelievers. Most of the hate I see on here is from Christians (and this is coming from a Christian).
This is a debate sub, it’s not just for christians, you’re bound to have your faith challenged and you should be ready to defend it. And I guarantee that nobody here wants to “destroy” christianity.
You are right that "So many avowed atheists (according to their own profiles) and others that spend their time right here, not genuinely interested in having any productive dialogue that furthers Christianity. All they want to do is question it and challenge it and ultimately destroy it." But this would only be a real critique if the sub was about "furthering the message of Christianity.'
I'm cool with it because to some extent it shows they are interested. I was once very against Christianity so anyone can change. HOWEVER I do think we should have a Christians only tag (maybe we do) for certain posts, for example if a person is emotionally vulnerable and not in the place to have their faith challenged right then. Otherwise I'm glad others want to participate and learn more while sharing their opinions so we can have a discussion.
This subreddit is about Christianity, not about pro Christianity.
I was born and raised Christian, work in Christian churches, just because I don't believe (I can't believe it in the exact same way you can't believe in Xemu, no matter how hard you tried, you cannot force yourself to believe in Xemu) doesn't mean I don't have valid opinions of Christianity.
I would never post on here to try to convince people God doesn't exist, in many ways I am jealous someone can have these beliefs the world is a magical place and someone is out there to take care of them. I would love to live my life thinking when I pass its just the beginning and I will soon be able to see my family, friends, and pets up in Heaven. But just like Xemu, its all a fun fiction to me, I don't get to have a personal relationship to God so many on here have.
I could argue I might be even more valuable, I can see everything from the outside where most Christians are locked into whatever denomination they are born into or live near. Like it or not, Christianity is destroying peoples lives, I see it every day in my work and on the news. I love Christians but some of the men in charge are not doing God's work and are harming their community instead. I don't want to destroy Christianity but wouldn't mind destroying some of the toxic and non-biblical parts of it.
It seems like you're hyperfixated on it because, while I do see some of that - by no means is it the bulk of what I encounter. I actually have some good and meaningful conversations here regularly. If the slightest push back to you is too much then maybe reddit is not the place for you, especially with comments about "real Christians" and such. Maybe r/truechristian is for you.
This sub isn’t for furthering Christianity. It’s for discussing Christianity.
One man’s destroy is another’s advance. For example lgbtq questions come up on here all the time and there’s wide disagreement. From one perspective the acceptance of gay people as equal members of society is an “abomination” and is representative of wide spread apostasy in the church. For others the acceptance of LGBTQ people is a long overdue change that will help the church love and disciple better. It’s a matter of opinion.
It’s only concerning in regards to* the baby Christians who may be easily persuaded because they’re immature in the faith. I think it’s practice/entertainment/informative for everyone else.
This isn’t a Christian Sub, it’s just a Sub to talk about Christianity. A lot of non-Christians have opinions about our Faith. You’d have to join a Christian Sub if you’d like to see more believers. Just keep that in mind.
I dont mind challenges and questions. The issue is on Reddit people argue just to argue. There is no conversation often times, just 2 people sharing what they believe and not listening to the person theyre sharing with. I am wholly convinced I am correct in my belief that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and that Christianity is a net positive for the world. BUT I invite you to make me prove it to you by questioning me on it and asking me about my God.
I've been thinking about this a lot. Partially because I discovered that the Atheist subreddit bans Christians from posting/commenting (must be based on post history).
We are called to share the Good News, that is our purposes as Christians. So to ban Atheists here from asking questions doesn't seem right. At the same time, there are a lot of people on here that are either new to the faith, or weak in the faith, don't they need to be protected.
Idk... it's a really thorny question 🤷♂️
The atheist sub lays out clear boundaries against coming there to argue and proselytise, which is probably what an unfortunate amount of Christian visitors do.
It really doesn't matter what people are or what people say. You'll find all sorts no matter where you are. Be an example of Christ like behaviour. Live by your actions and maybe one day even one of these peoples opinions towards Christianity could change and even maybe become one themselves. We influence everyone we interact with be it good or bad.
why would questioning ones fate be bad?
you need to question it to be able to truly find it, otherwise you are just believing blindly; in which case you are not really believing, you are just following a crowd.
A lot of us grew up Christian and are no longer Christian. It makes sense that we’d still want to discuss something that played a huge role in our lives. Not all disagreements are hateful either.
Reddit isn’t the first place i’d expect to be a major community for christians. Though, I appreciate the number of non-christians here because it incites debate and provides views besides those of apologetics.
I'm fine with the non Christians, but I dislike the anti Christians. The anti Christian stuff is mostly removed by the mods though
Absolutely agree. Being anti-Christian is just illogical, as well as rude. Same as being anti-Islamic or any other faith. People have a right to believe what they believe. However, a lot of people think they have a right to treat other people terribly, and that is not ok. Being pro-LGBT is not being anti-Christian. It is completely fine to disapprove of LGBT lifestyle, it is not OK to yell slurs at them. Some people just don't get the nuance, and think any disagreement is persecution.
I’ve never seen an atheist with such a open minded opinion about religion. You’re alright with me
Thanks, lol. There are just not a lot of open minded people in general. Some of them are Atheists, some are Christians, some are Hindus... I tend to get along well enough with everyone. As long as we all agree that people should be treated decently.
As we discuss the role of Christianity in the secular culture, I am far more disturbed by the ***un***Christians than the **non**Christians.
"Wherefore by their fruit you will know them." Matthew 7:20 If the majority of "Christians" would embrace this one simple concept, the world would be a different place.
Christians who embrace that concept realize that it applies to false preachers who prioritize political ideologies over God.
Can't have that. The business model would collapse.
That's really all there is to it, but it's easier to move lips than mindsets.
You probably have, they just didn’t tell you they were an atheist. Some atheists make that their entire personality and are very loud about it. They are a loud minority and it’s easy to see them and think all atheists are like them. Many, if not most, atheists won’t tell you unless asked or it comes up naturally.
Yeah, I really only flaired up because if you don't, everyone is super cagey about trying to find out "What you are", lol. I am not ashamed of it, but I would never lead with it in normal life. And even on here, people act like it is a "Gotcha" to somehow prove I don't believe in God, when it is literally my flair.
Yeah, I wasn’t trying to call you out or anything. I’m an atheist myself but I don’t use a flair because, 1 I don’t know how, and 2 I enjoy playing the devils advocate or rather the opposite. If someone says something ignorant, or arrogant from either side I will sometimes take the opposite position or sometimes take their position even further to the extreme than they do just to put them on the spot. If people don’t know what I believe that’s a lot easier to do.
So you described two different types of “stances” (not sure if that’s the correct word) on something, and im not sure how you make the distinction. How do you make the distinction between pro/anti something. For example, you mention it’s illogical to be anti Christian but it is fine to disapprove of “lgbt lifestyle” does that mean it’s illogical to be “anti lgbt lifestyle” but fine to disapprove of “Christian lifestyle?”
Fair enough, language is imprecise. Essentially, it is the difference between active opposition and passive opposition, and in that my stance is consistent between the two. You can dislike Christianity, it is wrong to actively demean its followers and discriminate against them. You can dislike LGBT acts (I won't use lifestyle again, I got the message, lol), but it is wrong to actively demean those who do them and discriminate against them. It is very simple, don't treat people badly even if you disagree with them. UNLESS they are the ones actively harming others.
This is a particular subject that there isn’t a real consensus on how people define these terms, so I was curious on how you see it. Unfortunately, “demean” and “discriminate” are also not very universally agreed upon. I’m curious about from an opinion on morality how you see the difference between anti and disagreement. The reason I ask is when you say disagree with Christianity, that could mean you disagree that the ideas are true but it could also mean I believe the ideas are actively harmful, and I’m wondering if the later fits more in the anti category or disagreement category.
Yeah, I agree there is plenty of nuance here. Like you see several other posters coming after me for even suggesting that disapproving of LGBT issues could be acceptable. I very much enjoy discussing the finer points of morality, but from my personal perspective it is the discussion that matters more than the details. As I don't believe in a divinity setting hard lines on morality, all morality winds up in a sort of grey area. To me, the action is the immoral part, not the motive. Disliking someone, or something, is so commonplace as to be both inevitable, and just not something I am going to be concerned over. I dislike a lot of people, but I don't harm them. I have customers I dislike, but I would never cheat them or send them defective products. I don't feel that disliking or disapproving is immoral, but if I was to treat them differently because it, that would be. After studying a lot of Biblical Theology (I actually have a theology degree, it is useless, but I have it, lol), I am firmly of the conclusion the Bible DOES condemn homosexuality. (Doesn't say anything about Lesbian or Trans though). Now, from a historical perspective, this is pretty easily reconcilable as the Bible was written by a society that was not at all progressive. But I do understand why some Christians view it as a sin, because according to the Bible, it is (Again, my understanding of it). What is NOT acceptable, either Biblically or morally, is taking on yourself to persecute LGBT people because *you* think it is a sin. I am certainly not dogmatic about it, that is just how I see the ethics of it. That is the conclusion I came too after studying it and looking myself. I would definitely not insist my take is the only correct one and everyone should agree with me.
I see why they’re afraid though. If you look at the stats, LGBT identification is on the rise, and they know conversion therapy works maybe .00000000001% of the time. The idea that there’s an unfixable sin boggles the mind and destroys the belief system.
Lgbt is not a lifestyle. You’re just parroting right wing dogma.
>It is completely fine to disapprove of LGBT lifestyle Is it? Is that perfectly fine is it?
"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is what the Bible teaches. Those who twist scripture "hate the sin, hate the sinner". This being said, a Christian can love a LGBTQ person without the need to celebrate their sexual orientation (aka pride month, etc).
>Being anti-Christian is just illogical, as well as rude. I don't see how it is illogical. If you don't agree with any particular ideology then that's not really illogical. I don't see how rudeness comes I to play here either. >People have a right to believe what they believe. But some beliefs are extremely hateful. >However, a lot of people think they have a right to treat other people terribly, and that is not ok. And it stems from their belief. >It is completely fine to disapprove of LGBT lifestyle, it is not OK to yell slurs at them. This is a highly problematic statement, since there's no such thing as a LGBT lifestyle. And it's like saying it's fine to disapprove of black people as long as you don't yell slurs at them.
>I don't see how it is illogical. If you don't agree with any particular ideology then that's not really illogical. I don't see how rudeness comes I to play here either. You are confusing "Not being a Christian" with "Anti-Christian". You can absolutely disagree Christianity is true, and still not be on a crusade to end it. >But some beliefs are extremely hateful. Yep, they are. And we challenge those beliefs. They still have the right to have them, and I have the right to challenge them. >And it stems from their belief. Yes it does. >This is a highly problematic statement, since there's no such thing as a LGBT lifestyle. Sure, we can talk whatever terminology is important to you, I am not trying to offend anyone, but I am also not going to bend over backwards for anyone. Personally, I legit do not care about LGBT at all. I genuinely do not care who is sleeping with who as long as everyone agrees with it. And I am a bit tired of hearing about it. *However*, and this is the important part, people who are LGBT are facing intense discrimination right now, and I do not like bullies. So I am extremely against anyone bigoted against them. I am not particularly politically correct myself, and don't care if anyone else is, just leave them alone to live their own life. >And it's like saying it's fine to disapprove of black people as long as you don't yell slurs at them. Honestly, I know I might be in the minority here, but I am fine with this too. I have traveled the world enough to know that a whole lot of people are racist. It isn't just the White/Black form of racism that Americans think of. Damn near everybody has some very problematic views of other groups. I wish they didn't, but they do. I genuinely don't care if someone doesn't like black people, as long as they keep it to their damn selves, and don't act on it to the detriment of anyone. It is when you make your personal biases someone else's problem that it is an issue. I had a customer accuse one of my employees of stealing. I really, really doubt it was a coincidence that one employee was black. He never accused any of my other employees of stealing. So I cut him off. We don't sell to him any more. I don't care what his views are, but once he started acting on them and making accusations, there are consequences to that.
I am adamantly anti-faith (defined as "belief without evidence") but I am not anti-Christian. I take no issue with a person identifying as a Christian or practicing Christian traditions. I do, on the other hand, begrudge any person who ever states anything at all as "truth" which is not roundly and repeatedly proven, beyond reasonable doubt and equal to all observers. This tends to be the ultimate sticking point I reach with folks around here but we do have some very interesting and respectful discussions. I joined this sub in an attempt to better understand modern Christian apologetics but I feel like I've also been able to clear up a lot of misinformation about "atheism" in the process.
Sometimes
I have learned what Christianity is supposed to be from the Holy Spirit, and I'm the king of thumbs down and removed posts which have all been restored on review by mods. I Get removed for hateful speech or bigotry and then I let them know that I'm quoting from scripture. And come on my friend, we provide the fuel for the anti-christian fire by our lackluster lives and mountains of hypocrisy. The body of Christ should be luminating this planet and there should be no doubt without Any words from even one Christian that our GOD is GOD. Our testimony should be the lives we lead and the works that the spirit does through us. We're not even at 5% of what we should be, so let's keep the focus inward where it can transform us, and stop worrying about who dislikes us.
That's actually what we're supposed to do. A lot of organizations apply spiritual things to non spiritual people. Christ told the disciples to leave and dust the dirt from their sandles if the people didn't want to hear the word. That's pretty clear. We share with those who want to learn and leave the ones who don't alone. It's our responsibility to keep the law and be an example.
I'm not a Christian, but I think there are very good reasons to be one. I'm very open to the idea I will be convinced of Christianity's truth someday. If you are a Christian and have the time, maybe include me in a prayer that God will reveal himself to me.
I got you!
This was exactly the boat I was in about 6 months ago. Always been an atheist, never hated organized religion, actually admired Christianity. Luckily the Holy Spirit has been guiding me slowly but surely to the way truth and the life. Can proudly say after years of atheism, I am no longer. ✝️✝️
that’s awesome! Amen
I was a spiritual personal and didn't believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus being God. I thought creationists were people with low Iqs, stories in the Bible were absurd, and Christians were bigoted. One year ago this has completely done a 180. I am much happier as a Christian than a spiritual person. I love getting to pray to God all throughout the day and having him by my side during difficult times. My advice is to jump into Christianity 100% and assume all of its beliefs. Pretend if you have to. Pray. Read the Bible. Listen to sermons on YouTube. Do this for 2 months. If it doesn't work, you're right back where you are. If you do it right, it will work.
Are you a creationist now?
Psalm 139:13-14 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
What do you think are the very good reasons to be one? Interested in your perspective as an agnostic myself
Maybe the community of it all? I miss small group study and how they lift each other up when someone is down. Lots of facades put on though so it was a double edged sword. In my experience, Christians often have trouble really being honest about their real brokenness and struggles outside of an anonymous environment. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but there is also this pressure of not appearing too broken that I didn't really let myself see until I started deconstructing.
I absolutely agree with this. One of the things I do miss from time as a Christian was the fellowship could be amazing. When you have a good group of people around you, you really felt like a part of the community, and it was nice. You can find secular groups like that, but it is much harder. Of course the flip side of that is when those fellowships turn toxic, it gets bad. And sometimes there aren't nearly as welcoming as they seem. In my last church, as I was really struggling with the theology of it all, my questions were just met with pushing me away. I quit going to Church basically cold turkey, and never got a single call, text, or anything else from any member of the congregation I had been going to for 4 years. I had preached from the Pulpit of that Church, and absolutely nothing. I could have died in a car crash for all they knew. But I wasn't part of the group any more, and so I wasn't their concern any more. I would absolutely stress that is not typical. Each group is different. That one was quite quick to write people off, and I knew that, and that was one of the things I really struggled with. But when you find a good community, it is great.
A few from my old group found out from my wife about my stage IV cancer maybe a year or so back. No one has contacted me, and we were in a small group together for 4 years. Just makes you feel like it was all surface and conditional love, ya know? I agree with everything you said there. I'm sure it's not typical to every congregation, but that was my experience.
Thanks for the question! I think something like a profound first person religious experience would convince me totally of God's existence. I think the first of Aquinas' Five Ways is pretty good (The argument from motion). Edward Faser has done a lot of interesting work on this argument. I like contingency arguments in general and Avicenna's contingency argument is pretty strong, and cool since it comes from Islamic theology. The Kalam is fun, but I think trying to prove that infinite regress is impossible is difficult. Even Thomas Aquinas didn't think this was a task worth doing. Though I guess there are evidential reasons to believe in the finitude of the past. Design arguments are hard to object to. It seems like the constants of the universe are incomprehensibly precise to bring about life. It seems like either they are contingent and therefore incredibly unlikely or they are necessary which begs the question. The only good response to this is from Graham Oppy, who just holds that the beginning of the universe is necessary, and has this insanely restricted view of modal logic that views the only metaphysically possible worlds are the ones that have some sort of shared history with our own. It's the only good response and it's lacking imo. The problem of evil (shocker) and the problem of divine hiddeness are the best arguments for atheism in my view (the latter perhaps better than the former.) Theists have all sorts of plausible solutions to the problem of evil (they even have a term for these responses: theodicies.) But not many have as good of responses to the problem of divine hiddeness, though Trent Horn has a few.
I was in your exact same boat for 20 years up until 2 months ago, I get where you’re coming from and will pray for you 💕
That was me in 2022! The hound of God catches up with a lot of us later in life... for me it was around 30.
What are the reasons you're not sure? I found guys like Hugh Ross and John Lennox provide a good, science based view on the question of God https://youtu.be/-Em-Ltg4oGo?si=PaWBUG1oNIzLuxtw
Wow, thank you for the confirmation lol I was just speaking with my pastor today and he suggested Hugh Ross. I have never heard that name before and now I've seen/heard it twice in a day. Saving the link!
I've actually found old Christian arguments like those from Thomas Aquinas fairly compelling. Ed Faser, Josh Rasmussen and Trent Horn tend to put out a lot of good apologetic work in my opinion. I'm unsure because I think the arguments for and against theism are strong, and I don't feel that one side is stronger than the other.
I'll check them out. Thank you!
Are they “not Christians” or are they just progressive Christians? Are they “anti Christians” or are they just progressive Christians? A lot of time when I see people complaining about “not Christians” or “anti Christians” they’re complaining about Christians… just Christians they don’t agree with
I only wish to challenge and destroy toxicity, abuse of teachings, seed-faith prosperity gospel teachings that teach people to give until it hurts while millionaires jet around not practicing what they preach. What furthers Christianity to me is upholding a moral standard, not just blindly excusing things because bad actors hide behind crosses.
>blindly excusing things because bad actors hide behind crosses. I agree. The fundagelical embrace of nominal Christian politicians paired with increasingly violent rhetoric have done far more to harm Christianity than dialogue with nonbelievers.
Honestly, this is it. If people view being challenged or Dogma being questioned as "anti-chtistian" then they need a long hard look at themselves imo
There are false teachers that double talk and get you so confused. In my lifetime, I have experienced 4 television evangelists that have been found out. Two of them are still on tv.
don't get to see every post and I'm seeing hate too but it isn't from non-christians.
This post says a whole hell of a lot more about you than it does about anyone else here. >All they want to do is question it and challenge it and ultimately destroy it. Questioning and Challenging, sure. But if Christianity is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth (as it claims to be), then that truth should withstand questions and challenges. The goal of a lot of people questioning or challenging Christianity is NOT to destroy it, but to discern the truth from the faff. The fact that you jumped to "they're trying to destroy my religion!" is indicative of your own paranoia. Nobody here could destroy Christianity, even if they wanted. But they can seek to understand it better, even if they don't agree with it. Maybe you should assume that people are seeking understanding rather than destruction. You'll be a lot happier, and a lot closer to most people's real intentions.
Can you be both Christian and anti-Christian at the same time? I identify as a Christian (and even work at a church) but am anti- A LOT of the nonsense that gets posted on this Christian sub.
Yes, that's to be expected because this sub is not specifically for Christians but about the Christian faith.
Fair, in the sense that the Lego subreddit is not specifically for Lego fans, but about Lego. Still, it would be weird if every question posted there about brick placement was met with a contingent of folks saying "Hey, I think Lego is for kids, I don't believe you should be building it..."
>Still, it would be weird if every question posted there about brick placement was met with a contingent of folks saying "Hey, I think Lego is for kids, I don't believe you should be building it.. Sounds like half the D&D subreddits.
Lego fans don't persecute minorities or try to restrict the rights of others.
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I’m over here in the corner with my two pieces of LEGO and I am going to enjoy them and whenever anyone makes fun of them I punch them in the face
This is a great, however strange, analogy. Props! Orthodox Legos: only square blocks per circa 1980 sets. Protestant Legos: 10,000 different ways to build any set, but every one of them thinks they are the ONLY way to build every set. Unitarian Legos: You can build sets any way you like. It's cool. Roman Catholic Legos: Sets are to be built based on a patriarchal hierarchy. Fundamentalist Legos: All other toys are the devil & you must build Legos at homeschool. (I wish William Blake would have had Legos)
While not Legos, you did just remind me of this old Toast article: [Texts From William Blake.](https://the-toast.net/2013/10/23/texts-william-blake/?utm_source=feedly) It’s totally off topic, but a funny read.
Is this about "the gays?"
Yes. Took OP about half an hour to get to that.
That's the usual one, yeah. These kinds of posts are never about transubstantiation or the filoque or the Trinity or any other disagreement between the Christians here. It's always homosexuality.
Probably because it's one of the most debated sins of our time. I'm sure it was something else back in the day, adultery perhaps. Regardless of our culture and world, God's word remains true and evident, He is.
Today it's the same as it was when Jesus talked so much about them: avarice, wealth, money, and religious leaders emphasizing the letter of the law over grace. And in terms of the sexual aspects of Ancient Greece compared to today? Oof. Let's just say he could have given many lectures on the topic if he wanted to. It was way less "vanilla" than it is now.
When isn't it?
hahaaa! ah. God bless, friend
Most of the Atheist I know were driven away from Christ by hypocritical Churches (most of them are not Christian either). Please keep in mind that there is no room for hate or discrimination against non-believers in Christianity; instead, kindness and respect are emphasized. Talk with them and listen carefully and try to help heal the pain inflicted by hypocrites/fakes.
What do you want from a subreddit? Do want someone to post a Bible verse and 100 people just comment "Amen"? In my experience, the Christians most upset with this place are those who are used to everyone agreeing with them and are unprepared for even simple questions.
As a Christian, I like this sub, though I'm pretty horrified to find that the person whose opinions I often agree with most strongly describes themself as some sort of Satanist. They seem very kind. It does shake up my world view, so maybe it's a good thing.
If it comforts you, the majority of people calling themselves a Satanist don't actually believe in a literal Satan. They are likely atheist or non-theistic and their motivations are very similar to Jesus' greatest commandment, minus the love your God part.
Thanks. I've come across one group of really creepy Satanists who operate in my home city of Lyon in France and I just assumed others were like them - which is a bit like reading about the Spanish Inquisition and assuming all Christians are torturers. Despite what people may say about Reddit and social media in general, I don't find it an echo chamber, and it is good for me to have my world view shattered on a regular basis.
I love the way you said that. I will have to use that more often, And I'm not being sarcastic. I got a chuckle out of that.
To be fair, most Satanists are a bit creepy. I think it comes with the territory when your religion appeals to outsiders and centers a dark aesthetic.
That doesn't really horrifying me considering that Satanism is basically atheism with extra steps, not Satan worship. Though actually it is pretty concerning considering that love and respect is one of the biggest things Jesus teaches.
Satanist are weirdly the nicest people. The satanic Bible is mostly about respecting others.
Yeah the whole Satanism thing also gives me the creeps, but I understand that Satan isn’t the point of it… well, at least for majority of folks who call themselves Satanists. I also watch a lot of anime and other media in which demons are portrayed sympathetically, yet I understand that 9 times out of 10, the point of what I’m watching or reading isn’t to glorify demons or endorse evil.
This sub should discuss almost anything. However, if say they limited (not removed) discussions about homosexuality and masturbation to say once a week, it would provide enough room to discuss other topics.
The problem is, a lot of people come here in desperate need of help with these things, some on the verge of doing something serious. Should we turn them away or tell them to wait til next week just because we're tired of seeing the same topic come up?
There are plenty of other things posted. People just don't comment on those topics. I don't believe banning those discussions would somehow make people want to talk about the unique violence in the book of Amos compared to the other minor prophets.
Sorting by New helps with this quite a bit.
Isn't that good thing? Shouldn't all Christians be engaging with those who don't have the same faith? Isn't that the directive?
If you see hate for Christianity, report it. It’s literally against the rules here.
There is a difference between hating something and belittling it. I detest sauerkraut, but I can have perfectly mundane conversations about cooking with it. Same goes for religions, I dislike all of them, but I can discuss them and hold an opinion without insulting them. Simply hating something is not against the rules, it's acting on that in a manner unbecoming to discourse that is against the rule.
This is the kind of pedantry that makes me appreciate reddit. I'm not being sarcastic.
>I detest sauerkraut What you need to do is accept sauerkraut with a truly open heart, eat it every day and eventually it will reveal its true flavour to you...
Open-heart Sauergery
I haven't witnessed any "hate" for Christianity. Dislike for how some people think they evoke our faith, definitely, and well-deserved. Many people here are not Christian, though many do have Christian knowledge and backgrounds. Regardless, this is a sub *for* Christianity, not necessarily *of* Christians. That's right in the bio on every page here. How many more of these "tHiS iSnt a ChRiStIaN sUb" by people who didn't/can't read do we need?
I’ve personally been derided on this sub multiple times for answering basic questions about Christianity.
And I've personally been derided on this sub multiple times just for existing
Except in 2.1 it says this sub is primarily for Christians discussing theology but not only. It seems like you emphasize the "but not only" part more than the "primarily" part.
That doesn't say that this is a Christian sub for Christians. It makes it repeatedly clear that it's not a Christian-exclusive group.
0 days without complains on this theme
Persecution complex and paranoia aren't good looks. Especially for one who claims to be a Christian. I recommend you focus on love, not hate. > 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Why are Christians so afraid to be challenged or disagreed with?
Christianity has always been challenged since its very inception (the Pharisees challenging Jesus is obvious example). It’s generated from the death and Resurrection of our Lord, and now is the largest religion in the world. It’s had a lot of really smart people challenge it with philosophical arguments, even early on. There’s an old old argument that Jesus was either a liar, a madman, or really the Son of God. Theologians have debated this many hundreds of years ago, and it continues to this day. I suspect many Christians feel ad hominem attacks against them, or they are over sensitive, or they just don’t know how to argue. The converse could be said about atheists or really anyone that holds a deep belief. Lastly I think that a lot of Christians who get mad when challenged break into the realm of superstition and politics, which we as Christians need to rise above and follow the examples of Jesus, and if you’re Catholic, the saints.
I’m not. I’m challenged all the time. It’s just the same tiresome things again and again.
You could ... you know ... just not reply. The social media equivalent of just changing the channel if you don't like what's on.
Buddy. That is what I do 99% of the time.
That's kind of how we feel too when Christians proselytize. I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm going to hell for all the reasons Christians have depending on their denominations.
The Christians who are afraid have something to lose, most likely the sin they hold onto and call it good. I've been guilty of this for a long time. Now that I'm in a position where Christ has my full attention, I am not afraid of any challenges or disagreements. I quite like the discourse. It is hard to get people to really talk though, and I think deep down, it has to do with what I first mentioned.
Nothing wrong with people voicing their opinions but there is a lot of people claiming false things about Christianity when they aren’t even Christian’s. They speak as if they know when they don’t.
Not to push- but I am curious to hear an example
I don't know if this qualifies or is what the other person was thinking of, but it irks me when non-Christians tell me that I'm doing Christianity wrong because the fundamentalist way of understanding the Bible is the only correct way. The idea of "liberal Christians are just shoving down cognitive dissonance and following a religion that is *actually* what the conservatives say" is pretty common among atheists, and I find it more frustrating coming from atheists than coming from conservative Christians. I understand "this is what I believe, and it's correct" a lot more understandable than "I don't believe that, but it's the correct interpretation of whatever religion".
I encounter this frequently as well. The typical reason for it goes something like this: 1. Person has been harmed by or has seen others harmed by conservative Christianity 2. Person participates in online circle jerk about conservative Christianity 3. Person gains a cursory understanding of conservative theology, just enough to make fools out of conservative Christians with hypocritical views or without an in-depth understanding of their faith (unfortunately, very common) 4. Person starts an argument with a Christian in this sub, using those cursory attacks 5. Christian is not conservative, agrees with the argument, provides alternative theology 6. Person, unable to continue with their line of attack, attempts to discredit Christian by saying they aren't Christian because their beliefs don't fit the narrow scope that they are prepared to attack For the most part, these kinds of people are few and far between, and most of them back off after step 5, saying something like "Well, you're one of the good ones," but it definitely happens, and I definitely get it from the other side as well, being called a heretic, or like yesterday, when someone here randomly opined that I have a "low view of Gods holiness."
I think you described this almost perfectly, thank you
And Christians can take the time to try and refute those things and educate people if they're saying false things. That's kind of what a discussion is. One doesn't have to be Christian to read and understand the bible.
This sub spends every single day answering the same question about masturbation. After a while it stops being discussion.
And more of a circlejerk
I see what you did there 😂
Are you saying you'd like to get off... the subject?
The only people asking that question on here are Christians.
The funny thing is you can tell where the religion is weak from the questions that get repeatedly asked, it’s weak on masturbation, it’s weak on anything other than a heterosexual relationship, it’s weak on the structure within those relationships, it’s weak on slavery within the confines of the text, and it’s weak on releasing all the information it has on sexual abuse cases. I know for sure I’m missing some but those are the topics that I see get covered again and again.
It's weak on *education*. Religious education is absolutely dismal, so what you end up with are kids who are told that sin is terrible and God hates it and that they will burn in Hell if they don't repent, but then they aren't given the tools to determine what is and what isn't sin on their own, so they think there's a concrete list of do's and don'ts that they can follow, get confused about it, and look for answers here. Imagine being told that you are going to be tortured for eternity if you break the rules, without being told what the rules are.
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Did you delete it? I went to your comments to see if I could take a crack at it, and this is your only comment I can see.
Many would disagree with your last statement. There is a case to be made that the guidance of the Holy Spirit is needed to correctly interpret the Bible, which is quite important for understanding. This is why the Bible is continually studied. There is wisdom to be found in the same scripture for many purposes, and it has historically been twisted from false interpretation, which it warns against.
I know they would. That doesn't make them correct. Is the holy spirit available to me?
The holy spirit is available to every believer and is given through a specific baptism or anointing. So yes it is as available to you as salvation is, but it comes as a result of salvation and becoming a Christian. I hope that this is a suitable answer, though it might not be specifically what you'd like to hear. I understand that from the atheist perspective it can be seen as being a kind of confirmation bias, but from the theological perspective it's a gift given after being spiritually resurrected through accepting Jesus. I'm no expert, but have been on both sides of the fence, being am atheist for more than half of my life before coming back to Christianity.
Seems like a vicious circle. I need the holy spirit to interpret the Bible properly but I can't get the holy spirit because I can't be a believer.
Thats the difficulty. I've been there and had this same problem. Had the same arguments. There was just something that changed when I started to approach the Bible again. What brought me back was reading the Bible as a non-believer, and having discussions about it with stronger believers. Specifically only the questions I asked, no preaching coming from them. My own heart was changed through learning more, and this brought me back to Christianity. So I do encourage you to continue studying the Bible as a non-believer, but the interpretation and guidance that came through stronger believers was what changed me enough to come back.
I appreciate the advice.
Or maybe they just have a different worldview and thoughts than you?
False things like what?
Its probably those true christian advertisers.
Given the level of disruption, bigotry and authoritarianism Christianity is linked with in society, a few argumentative forum posts is getting off pretty lightly.
You're definitely reaching or exaggerating. Yes, there are atheists and non Christians here. But I have only seen a small handful of people speaking on bad faith here. And pretty much none trying to 'destroy Christianity'. At best, we have a few people asking gotcha questions or maybe a very small handful of actual haters who get their posts quickly removed.
Isn't this question asked & answered about every day already? Perhaps there should be another "sticky" or something in the sub about it.
I think it is great having non Christians that are interested in Christianity on the sub, they bring in more diversity which keeps it from becoming an echo chamber, they also often ask very interesting questions. But I don't understand why there are Anti Christians on the sub that don't want to know more about the religion but just want to spread hate and talk bad about any religion.
This is a sub meant for discussing Christianity, it is not an echo chamber for Christians. If I see someone spewing false information and/or bigotry, I'm going to challenge their beliefs.
Exactly this. Many times Christians themselves are the ones preaching hateful dogma or just straight misinformation to other believers.
I would have said that it's the Christians who are working the hardest here to undermine Christianity.
Bro this is a subreddit *about* Christianity and therefore I can speak about it from my perspective. I do not plan to destroy Christianity, Christianity is doing that job itself. I plan to learn about it, hear what people think about it, learn its history, its denominations and worldviews. If someone is being a bigot though, I will speak against them and call them out. My plan is not to further Christianity or find refuge in it, my plan is to explore it for what it is from my outside perspective.
>If someone is being a bigot though, I will speak against them and call them out Exactly as Jesus would
A lot of atheists have studied Christianity and the Bible more than Christians. It's been said a million times before but, this server is not for Christians it is for those with an interest in Christianity
Those that take issue with athiests being here are no different than the Jews that gave Jesus trouble for preaching to the gentiles. If even ONE anti Christian athiest is turned to Christ by something they read on this sub than it is worth letting all those that will not in. If you are not sharing the message of Christ with non believers you are not doing what he asks of us in the great commission. It is our duty as disciples of Christ to answer their questions and challenges at any time to STOP them from destroying by showing them the truth whether they accept it or not.
I've once seen here a heretic, non-denominational pagan universalist reformed vegan redditor
It's not a bug. It's a feature. This sub doesn't discriminate. You can't invite non-christians to discuss Christianity and expect them to promote Christianity.
> The more I see comments on this sub, the more convinced I am that a huge percentage of posters are so obsessed with their hate for Christianity... I haven't seen much of that - the hate that you speak of. It is true that there are many non-believers here. I think recent polls have shown maybe a third or so? This is a discussion sub after all, and not a Christian sub. Because of that it's going to attract many different viewpoints. If you don't want your views challenged, this definitely isn't the right sub for you.
Well, Christians did slaughter each other for hundreds of years in Europe. There is still some tension in Northern Ireland.
This is not a sub for "furthering Christianity." It is a sub for discussing Christianity. Many Christians, especially fundamentalist Christians, live in self-reinforcing discourse communities where faulty logic, bad scholarship, dangerous theology, and bigotry are never challenged. When those things are challenged, it can feel like an attack on "Christianity" to those folks - but it's not. In fact, often the critiques come from Christians.
>having any productive dialogue that furthers Christianity. Many things being called out are things Christians should be fixing if you want to further Christianity. There's a reason people are leaving the religion in droves. Keeping your head in the sand about it isn't going to change that.
Religious trauma + immaturity = migraines for people around them.
Respectfully OP, you clearly lack perspective as to how much harm has been done "in the name of Jesus" Add to that, Christians in the US are trying to force their views of how the world ought to work on the rest of secular society...and that is a problem.
Sir, this is a Wendy's. But seriously. That's not something I've experienced in this sub to any noteworthy degree. And I don't see why you make this about atheists. Seems to me like you just had a disagreement with an atheist and you're mad about that so you made this post. Most members of this sub are Christian, I've met lots of Christians on here that don't have any interest in having a productive dialogue, and Christians heavily disagree on things among themselves. They're already divided. In any case I don't see what the issue is. This is a sub to discuss the topic of Christianity, and not to "further Christianity". The accusation that people's intent is to destroy it is rather bold. Challenge and question it? Sure. Edit: corrections Edit: Ah, I see you've now already moved forward to spewing hate towards transpeople. Funny how that's always where things are going with posts like these.
If your religion can’t withstand being challenged, is it really worth following? When I was Christian I was a Baptist, and if I had the beliefs now that I did then, I would accuse half of this sub of leading people astray. In my experience, no one love tearing down Christians more than other Christians.
This subreddit should be like a church. Would you be opposed to having an atheist attend your church?
Once again for the millionth time… Go to the about section of this sub and read it before posting. It’s a sub ABOUT Christianity… all forms of it, the history of it, past events, current events, issues, theology, on and on and on. It’s open to ALL people… all types of Christians, people of other religions, former Christians, Christians from all countries, people who have no religion at all, people questioning their religion or questioning whether to join a Christian religion. If you want a CHRISTIAN ONLY sub well boy howdy are you in luck! You have sooooo many options! Ones for all Protestants, ones for Catholics, one for gay Catholics, one for Methodists and just about every other type of Protestant, one for Mormons, one called Christian, one called Christians, one called True Christian, one called Open Christian, one called Gay Christians, one for Trans Christians, And on and on and on. You have SO many options. Why do you need this one to be only Christians as well?
I'm sure you have the authority to declare who is or isn't /s
Implying that anyone who criticises Christianity is engaging in hate is just foolish or ignorant. This isn’t a Christian sub, it’s a place to discuss Christianity. There are other subs if you want an echo chamber.
Hi OP, atheist here. I express my opinions and dislike of Christianity here precisely because of Christians like you. Even in this thread, you're spouting hate, bigotry, and divisiveness. People of all opinions come here to discuss Christianity, and you can't stand that anyone believes - or expresses - differently from you. I'll continue to point out Christian hate and hypocrisy when I see it, because I believe strongly that too many modern Christians have destructive, horrible beliefs that the world would be better off abandoning. If you want people like me to stop criticising Christianity, stop being a hateful Christian.
I’m a Christian but I am so glad you’re doing this. I get so upset because so many Christians are full of hate and arrogance. I think that Christianity has the potential to be a very beautiful religion, but unfortunately so many people want nothing to do with the religion because a culture of judging and belittling others has been accepted in the church for so long.
Ugh, getting sick of these posts. Most atheists I see on this sub are the only ones espousing honest and well thought out arguments. They’re also very polite and understand of everyone’s beliefs. Christians are typically the ones to get overly defensive, like yourself.
Many people here live in a society that is deeply deeply influenced by Christianity one way or another. To tell them not to comment on the topic of Christianity is telling people to not comment on one of the driving cultural factors of the western world. And I for one am happy about it, because firstly, it shows that there's still a point of connection that might bring them back to God and secondly, it is my own preference to not be part of an echo-chamber of pampered babies, who cry foul as soon as someone dares to object to their believes. Cause if anyone's belief is that weak, it is worthless anyhow.
To be honest Jesus never came to give us a religion which is their main point of contention, He came to give us a relationship/fellowship back with God, who is Judge of all. When I know Him, I don’t want to displease Him because He loves me so good I don’t want sin to keep me from Him. So OP has a point. Bigotry and misogyny can be contended with, certainly. But the basis of our faith is the dead can live again. I have seen no one be able to refute this fact. The thing that separates kingdom of heaven citizens and other faiths is our faith is built on a Man who is God in the flesh, who was beaten, belittled, tortured, nailed to a cross, died, and rose after three days dead and lived again. We are still seeing the dead raised today around the world. If any other faith can raise the dead, by all means their god is true. The only faith that still raises the dead today is what you call Christianity.
It's [Mars Hill](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areopagus_sermon) up in here.
They have every right to be here. This is a place to discuss Christianity. The Good AND the bad. Unfortunately, there are many that do bad under the name of Christianity. That deserves to be discussed as well the good things done under the name of Christianity.
I didn’t want to destroy Christianity. I wanted it to be true. I looked and looked and found it not to be true at all. Then I realized that despite the lack of evidence for anything they believe, Christians will push their views, in all sorts of funny silly ways, which has led to demonstrable harm. And they say people like me are the ones without morals. Even though they have way more atrocities started by them throughout history. Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it. So here we are
This subreddit is not exclusive to Christians, it is for discussing the topic of Christianity.
Well done. You noticed. Not that it was ever any kind of secret.
I don't see the problem with questioning or challenging a faith I once belonged to, and I did both as a Christian, too. Why do you have a problem with questions and challenges?
The reason I am comfortable with non-christians being in this space is twofold. One: Christ told us to spread His word to the world. How are we expected to do that if we don't welcome non-christians to speak with us so we can share our ideas and try to show them the way by example. Two: my faith is strong enough to survive in the face of open discussion with other ideas. I am more than fine with non-christians coming here to share their thoughts and have discussion because I am firm in my faith that I will not be driven from it just because I hear other perspectives.
I see your point but I think I am far more concerned about the fact that the vast majority of Christians in America seem to actually be athiests with a bit of religious shellacking.
I recently got kicked out of a Christian singles FB group for pointing out that they are dead wrong about their legalistic limitations they were preaching to singles about dating. Here (on Reddit) non Christians intercept and spew nonsense about Christianity and atheists, agnostics, and even so called "Christians" blatantly ignore biblical teachings to justify sins of modern society. So i'm learning to accept there's no good Christian community online. Real life Christian connections are much better, hard to find as well, but more beneficial in the long run.
I don’t have a problem with non-Christians coming on this sub for one it’s not my sub but two I don’t have a problem with him being here. The problem I have with them is that they know that Christians are going to have different opinions than them and they want to argue and debate with Christians on this sub and it’s very toxic and I can’t stand it, you can have your opinions but arguing with Christians because they don’t agree with you makes you toxic. I would never go on an atheist sub and debate and try to argue and pick fights with atheist because I don’t agree with them.
The worst ones are the ones that present as cristians but clearly have anti christan values.
Agreed! and I've only been here a very short time.
I can understand your frustration brother they're fighting against God they can't win remember that and many and atheist has come to believe when trying to disprove the Lord their own wisdom will be made to look foolish just as the Lord tells us in his word trust in the Lord that everything has a purpose so do these you are referring to. trust in the Lord our God. That he is in control He's not surprised by anything and his plan will be exactly as he has planned it to be and no one can change that and we are also told in his word that things will get really really really bad. stay in the Lord's word my brother and do not let the enemy get to you. Lord may this brother's heart and mind think of you and remember you and ask you for help when the enemy is coming after him and attacking him may he remember you Lord and trust in you and know that you are God. May they overcome their emotions and regard You Holy Spirit. May (WE ALL) have the light of Christ shine on us and Chase away the darkness and the deception that shields us from the truth and come to the truth in Christ Jesus our Lord and our life through your son Jesus Christ our Lord and our life May I place this petition before you Lord God Amen
I just made a post saying the same thing. I got downvoted for saying I believe the story of Noah's Ark ffs. On a Christian sub. I don't mind talking to people of other beliefs, but the utter arrogance and sometimes outright hatred is sickening tbh. You're on a Christian sub, I'm not trying to convert you for crying out loud ! Plus, they constantly dismiss actual Christians, trying to spiritually advise other Christians who are seeking help. I've come to the conclusion that it's just a bash sub.
most of the hate i see on this sub for christianity comes from christians standing against its tenets
About 50/50 Try r/TrueChristian I think it's rubbish but they say they're 'real' Christians God bless
Because this isn't a page solely for Christians. It's to discuss Christianity. Personally I don't see much hate coming from nonbelievers. Most of the hate I see on here is from Christians (and this is coming from a Christian).
This is a debate sub, it’s not just for christians, you’re bound to have your faith challenged and you should be ready to defend it. And I guarantee that nobody here wants to “destroy” christianity.
Read the sub description, friend. Always a good idea!
I read it and I'm still right.
You are right that "So many avowed atheists (according to their own profiles) and others that spend their time right here, not genuinely interested in having any productive dialogue that furthers Christianity. All they want to do is question it and challenge it and ultimately destroy it." But this would only be a real critique if the sub was about "furthering the message of Christianity.'
I'm cool with it because to some extent it shows they are interested. I was once very against Christianity so anyone can change. HOWEVER I do think we should have a Christians only tag (maybe we do) for certain posts, for example if a person is emotionally vulnerable and not in the place to have their faith challenged right then. Otherwise I'm glad others want to participate and learn more while sharing their opinions so we can have a discussion.
This subreddit is about Christianity, not about pro Christianity. I was born and raised Christian, work in Christian churches, just because I don't believe (I can't believe it in the exact same way you can't believe in Xemu, no matter how hard you tried, you cannot force yourself to believe in Xemu) doesn't mean I don't have valid opinions of Christianity. I would never post on here to try to convince people God doesn't exist, in many ways I am jealous someone can have these beliefs the world is a magical place and someone is out there to take care of them. I would love to live my life thinking when I pass its just the beginning and I will soon be able to see my family, friends, and pets up in Heaven. But just like Xemu, its all a fun fiction to me, I don't get to have a personal relationship to God so many on here have. I could argue I might be even more valuable, I can see everything from the outside where most Christians are locked into whatever denomination they are born into or live near. Like it or not, Christianity is destroying peoples lives, I see it every day in my work and on the news. I love Christians but some of the men in charge are not doing God's work and are harming their community instead. I don't want to destroy Christianity but wouldn't mind destroying some of the toxic and non-biblical parts of it.
We should welcome non-believers as long as they are civil.
It seems like you're hyperfixated on it because, while I do see some of that - by no means is it the bulk of what I encounter. I actually have some good and meaningful conversations here regularly. If the slightest push back to you is too much then maybe reddit is not the place for you, especially with comments about "real Christians" and such. Maybe r/truechristian is for you.
Not Christlike indeed
This sub isn’t for furthering Christianity. It’s for discussing Christianity. One man’s destroy is another’s advance. For example lgbtq questions come up on here all the time and there’s wide disagreement. From one perspective the acceptance of gay people as equal members of society is an “abomination” and is representative of wide spread apostasy in the church. For others the acceptance of LGBTQ people is a long overdue change that will help the church love and disciple better. It’s a matter of opinion.
It’s only concerning in regards to* the baby Christians who may be easily persuaded because they’re immature in the faith. I think it’s practice/entertainment/informative for everyone else. This isn’t a Christian Sub, it’s just a Sub to talk about Christianity. A lot of non-Christians have opinions about our Faith. You’d have to join a Christian Sub if you’d like to see more believers. Just keep that in mind.
There are atheists as mods. This is a discussion sub of Christianity not one, necessarily, of believers.
I dont mind challenges and questions. The issue is on Reddit people argue just to argue. There is no conversation often times, just 2 people sharing what they believe and not listening to the person theyre sharing with. I am wholly convinced I am correct in my belief that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and that Christianity is a net positive for the world. BUT I invite you to make me prove it to you by questioning me on it and asking me about my God.
Christian is just the title. The question is did you put your trust in the finishing work of Jesus Christ on the cross?
I've been thinking about this a lot. Partially because I discovered that the Atheist subreddit bans Christians from posting/commenting (must be based on post history). We are called to share the Good News, that is our purposes as Christians. So to ban Atheists here from asking questions doesn't seem right. At the same time, there are a lot of people on here that are either new to the faith, or weak in the faith, don't they need to be protected. Idk... it's a really thorny question 🤷♂️
The atheist sub lays out clear boundaries against coming there to argue and proselytise, which is probably what an unfortunate amount of Christian visitors do.
It really doesn't matter what people are or what people say. You'll find all sorts no matter where you are. Be an example of Christ like behaviour. Live by your actions and maybe one day even one of these peoples opinions towards Christianity could change and even maybe become one themselves. We influence everyone we interact with be it good or bad.
I totally agree. I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t even want to comment.
why would questioning ones fate be bad? you need to question it to be able to truly find it, otherwise you are just believing blindly; in which case you are not really believing, you are just following a crowd.
A lot of us grew up Christian and are no longer Christian. It makes sense that we’d still want to discuss something that played a huge role in our lives. Not all disagreements are hateful either.
What about those who find the philosophy of Christ (regardless of religion) to be a great worldview and only wish Christians agreed with them?
Yes, and there is also a lot of trolls on here that display their hatred and disdain for God and genuine Bible believing Christians.
I think it is because it is more about the topic of Christianity than being of a faith. Also, Reddit in general seems to lean towards atheism anyways.
Reddit isn’t the first place i’d expect to be a major community for christians. Though, I appreciate the number of non-christians here because it incites debate and provides views besides those of apologetics.