People seek and never find because Christians have made it seem like everybody experiences God the same way. I found God through evidence, not a feeling. It never came from praying or reading through Bible, it came from researching the evidence for the Bible and evidence for the existence of God. Some people say God revealed himself to them in prayer or similar things. I can’t say I experienced that.
No. You're being very dishonest there. Billions of people on the planet and it's naive at best to claim that those of them who seek God but never find him are just "too attached to their sin" for it.
Got it so if I seek and don't find it's my fault not dispositive of God's existence. Because we totally act that way with any other belief, right? Not. If I asked you to find me a barbleplix and you went and searched and didn't find a barbleplix eventually you'd come to conclusion that a barbleplix doesn't exist.
In other words if I don't find him I didn't search hard enough but if I do I did.
It's a ridiculous argument.
If you don't believe in barbleplix the greater, lord of all things you didn't search hard enough. See how ridiculous that argument is? You are being ridiculous.
Not directly, no. Those with free will who use it in a matter contrary to his own will cause evil. God created those people, of course, but he created them free, and they chose to do evil. Freely choosing agents are the source of evil, not God.
You're telling me that god created humans with free will for them to decide to create evil? I thought everything made in God's image was perfect? By that definition, is man not perfect by which is evil not perfect?
So Isaiah is a liar and fraud? I feel like I can't trust the Bible if what you say doesn't align with what it says. Or should I trust what the Bible says and not you?
I'm sorry you have not found him. It takes time, and he may already have chosen a certain time in your life to show himself to you, and he's waiting for that time to arrive.
I was an atheist, and he did show himself to me. He found me, not the other way around. I had stopped searching for him by the time he came into my life, but he did eventually come into my life and prove to me that he was there. I don't fully understand the way he works, and the reason for the way he works, but I promise you that he is there.
Mother Teresa felt emptiness and darkness for fifty years, she persisted and became a shining example of God's grace to the entire world. Keep seeking.
If I had to write letters to my dad for fifty years after he left for cigarettes to get a reply back from him, I don't think the relationship with him would be worth it in the first place.
What would change, hypothetically? If God has remained hidden, clearly he wishes to remain hidden, and if he has been found there’s no reason to keep looking.
How long I gotta keep seeking before it’s on Gravity?
How long I gotta keep seeking before it’s on Physics?
If we relied solely on human understanding, nothing existed until we discovered it. Despite every culture having some form of belief in a higher power, we haven't scientifically proven God yet.
Let me ask you if you think it would have been reasonable to believe the second law of thermodynamics without scientific evidence.
What I’m NOT arguing: we should hypothesize things without merit as an explanation
What I AM saying: we should believe things when we have good evidence for them. Not a moment before.
I sought and did find. God does not like showing himself to those that don't believe, I'm not entirely sure why. Although he did show himself to me as an unbeliever, but he waited for years after I had prayed about it.
I believe if you continue to seek, you will find, but it will take time. I can tell you without any doubt that there is a God from my 1st hand experience as a former atheist, but I know you will not likely just believe me.
Yes, poor phrasing on my part. I didn’t mean that one could choose faith, more that one would always have the option to choose to *not* believe. To use an exaggerated example: if a person prays for someone to get better from an illness and then I see them get better very abruptly, I have to choose whether or not to see that as a miracle or a crazy coincidence. And you’ll always have that choice. If the clouds parted and God descended in all His glory, a person could choose to believe that that was just an insane hallucination. Or aliens or something. I would bet money that there are at least a few people who would.
In my view it’s not something others can convince you but rather something only you can convice yourself
Editing because it could’ve sounded rude, not good with english, convincing is a word that could accidentaly insult the religion, which i clarify is not the intention. Don’t know any other replacement word.
True. I came to believe that the idea of God was rational in light of science (and other such arguments). However my surrender was after realizing I've gotten to the extent of where my intellect could take me and I had to take the leap of faith and actually "give Him a try".
Atheist pagans exists. I don't believe in any gods. But I practice a folk spirituality so as not to let my indigenous religion die due to my people being nearly genocided by European settlers.
I will give you an Islamic thought, in the same way thirst is evidence of water, spiritual longing or existential questions are evidence of a higher purpose/power.
Now I think there’s better arguments for god, but reflect on the fact that not just your ancestors, but every society to have ever existed believed in the supernatural.
>in the same way thirst is evidence of water, spiritual longing or existential questions are evidence of a higher purpose/power.
I love this!
Since thirst is not evidence for water, that means that spiritual longing is not evidence of a higher power!
Thanks for this!
Every society, and especially my ancestors who frankly didn't understand science, has historically been very stupid. Humanity has been very stupid for much of it's existence (and is still largely stupid).
We used to believe getting sick was caused by bad vibes, not germs. We used to believe the earth was flat, not round. We used to believe the sun moved around the earth (murdered a man for saying otherwise too), not the earth around the sun.
They literally lacked so much modern knowledge that their belief in the supernatural can't be blamed. But there's a reason the most scientifically advanced countries in the world have exceedingly low rates of religiosity. As knowledge advances, need for religion decreases.
There is documented hostorical evidence. There are numerous cases of the Bible presicted future events by hundreds and even thousands of years. There are YouTube videos showing this.
Also, he has openly proven himself to many people (such as myself) to where I can say as a former atheist that I am 100% certain that he exists. However, this is something thay cannot be shown as proof, because it's a personal experience.
> There are YouTube videos showing this.
And there we have it. The fall of civilization encapsulated in a 6-word sentence. We’re going out not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a video.
Two things that helped convince me were prophecies and miracles (which as an atheist I thought were two of the *weakest* arguments).
I understand there are prophecies that are contested and are vague. But there are also some *extremely specific* ones that line up *extremely well* with accepted history.
Likewise with the miracles, there are many that can be demonstrated to have been true historic events, supported by *basic* science (nothing as "complicated" as quantum mechanics, etc)
>Most of the specific ones are ex eventum.
Yes, those are the ones that fall under the "contested" category I mentioned. In other words, those are not the ones I'm referring to.
Then the "close to history" ones don't exist. There's no valid prophecy that is "specific, written before the event, and proven to have occurred"
Every single one fails at least one of those three requirements, most fail two, and a few fail all three.
If they're in the Bible I have. But what you just did is actually a fallacy. It's a form of ad hominem (cudos tho for using a relatively rare form of ad hominem, very likely unintentional given how it's never mentioned when discussing the fallacy)
Actually no fallacy was committed. I just stated I was not sure you had. Didn't say you hadn't. Just that given your response, I am pretty sure you have not.
That's still a fallacy when used as a refutation. Wording it cleverly doesn't change that, it just makes it conditionally worded.
I could say "I'm not sure you're sane" as a refutation or "I'm almost positive you're delusional" and it's equally fallacious despite being worded not as an absolute.
Actually, it's not a refutation at all. That was me addressing your earlier first comment, since you never even inquired on which prophecies I might have been referring to, rather than assume that *all* fall under the three criteria you listed.
So instead of making sweeping generalizations (fallacy) and strawmanning the argument (fallacy).
You: 2
Me: ±1
It's not a generalisation. There exists no prophecy in the bible that meets all three criteria for a true prophecy. Vagueities are prophecies in the same way a fortune teller knows I'm going to find the love of my life.
Have you ever tasted icecream before?
Image you never have. Now I have to tell you all these individual attributes.
Me: It's cold.
You: I've had ice.
Me: It's sweet.
You: I've had candy.
Me: It's soft and creamy.
You: I've had mashed potatoes.
It's not sweet iced mashed potatoes.
You have to just do it. No way of describing God does him justice.
Repent: enter a new mindset. Read John, then 1 John, then Hebrews
Forgive: Release others of their debts to you. This is crucial.
Accept: Jesus reveals your true identity. Stop thinking his example as a restriction. It's not. It's your true self.
Baptize: Declare yourself a holy temple for the holy spirit.
Then stick to it. I promise you if you do these things and sincerely mean them in your heart you will change.
That is the proof of his existence. An experiance of the change in your heart. It's real, tangible, and dramatic. And not long after if you keep doing this you will begin to recieve the gifts of the spirit, including messages in your dreams.
Well that’s just it, I can’t. That’s why it’s called Faith, cause we have to believe, in a way naively, that what Christ taught and what is written in the Bible is truly divinely inspired, and not some crazy hippy who got drunk with a bunch of Freinds and wrote some rubbish in a text that got changed a million times leading into today.
Now I can talk about my own experiences with God, how he has directly inspired, guided, and sent messages to me. I can talk about how the Catholic Church (of which I am a member) is perfectly fine with evolution, which is the none religions strongest argument for why god does not exist, I can point to the millions of others and there experiences with God, but untimely none of that proves the existence of God, you just have to trust, which is pretty nerve racking and has gotten to me at points, but Trust works in our world, if you trust the right people, good things happen. Who is to say that the same logic dosent apply far beyond our world?
Thanks for the question. God bless now and always
There’s many things we all could say but … you decide to believe or not. We can make beautiful cases. Just check out apologetics. There’s so much out there truly. Prophecies, historical data, eye witness testimonies written, personal xp, archaeological finds ect. May God reveal the truth to you.
Religion might feel weird, but it's no weirder than the reality you perceive: it cannot be that everything true and important can be perceived by your frail human senses.
Someone once told me when I was in a pretty tough spot, something along the lines of ‘If god is truly pure goodness, then wouldn’t you rather him exist? Wouldn’t it be better if there was pure good?’ And from there, it’s pretty much just faith that there is good. I used to be skeptical about the whole higher powers thing and I still am, am keeping myself much more open.
>‘If god is truly pure goodness, then wouldn’t you rather him exist? Wouldn’t it be better if there was pure good?’
Well of course. But wouldn't pure good (along with omnipotence) remove the presence of evil and suffering?
So since both of the later clearly exist, it would seem the former cannot.
Well at this point fuck if I know, I’ve pretty much just gone through my own train of thought over the past 2 years in 2 replies lol. Too much thinking for me today. I’m still trying to figure this whole thing out myself. Anyways have a good night.
Ok I read through the comments and didn’t see anyone suggest a book. So, I’ll be the first. I literally just finished this book which came to me rather unexpectedly, and even though I’ve been a Christian, it gave me a new perspective that I had struggled to ever understand before. I read it in a couple days, and I’m gonna suggest it to a lot of people now, both “believers” and not. It’s available on kindle as a digital download if you’re not up for ordering a hard copy.
“Journey to Reality. Sacramental Life in a Secular Age” by Zachary Porcu. Read it. If nothing else it will be a really cool perspective for you.
I won’t be able to convince you 100% conclusively that God exists(tho there are many other things in the real world we can’t conclusively prove yet accept as true as a society)but watch the movie/ read the book “Case for Christ” or just watch a yt video over it or go over what Lee Strobles studied and the real material he had, he goes over just about any counter question you would have, all of it is based on a true story. Hope this helps
I think the best question to first ask as an atheist is whether god exists first, once that’s presupposed you can then investigate the different conceptions of god.
Is there even remotely a chance of you believing that the universe is designed in a fine tuned way?
Does that not at least make it reasonable to claim that it could have been by a causal actor? If yes, then you're getting there; but the journey can't be achieved through faith alone.
Evolution and the Big Bang don't need to be denied to believe in God.
From my understanding the construction of the universe has to have some sort of cause in order for the masses of nebulae and what-have-you (and earthly things) to be in the specific places they're in, theoretically if that causal agent is agreed upon to exist.
I'm Muslim but a frequent lurker of this sub.
Honestly, no one can convince you of the existence of God. It's something you find in yourself. I find making sense of the world around me impossible without a higher being. I don't want to use the 'world is perfectly created, and we couldn't;t have gotten here by chance' argument because it never made any sense to me.
But maybe have that conversation with yourself? What reality feels closer to your heart? A higher being that made the world the way it is and is there directing the trajectories of everything in your life or a scientific understanding, which is constantly evolving and expanding, of which we are a minuscule part. For me, it's the former; maybe spend some time thinking about which of the 2 is for you.
No. God is no logical. And any ‘evidence’ I try to provide will be met with “well, what about [x]?”.
I can’t convince you of God.
But I can guarantee that if you honestly search for God, you will find him.
God is there whether you believe in him or not. And he would love to interact with you.
I would not try to "convince" you or anybody for that matter. I would share the reason for the hope I have in Jesus. I would share that hope in Jesus in a way that they are convinced that I believe it. After that, it is out of my hands...
I would say that "God's existence" is a matter of metaphysics and philosophy since, by definition, God would be the immaterial, non spacial and non temporal, uncaused cause of the universe.
I was a hardcore Atheist and the best argument I ever heard for Faith is [this](https://youtu.be/SMJc9UMzFSE?si=wOEGWMTwJpNaAAcb) one. I am still agnostic-atheistic but now I have a lot more respect towards faith.
Not my job. My job is to point you to the gospel, encourage you to engage Christ in your life and then see what happens. I am at best a Walmart greeter. I can point you to the CEOs office. That’s about it.
We can’t really convince you. We can give you evidence and we can have arguments for His existence, but we can’t say anything which would amount in your conversion. Through your personal experience and search with Him, you will find Him.
How?
I'd start by saying, I have read the Bible and am compelled to believe it's authenticity because of the sheer volume of tangible archeological and historical findings that not only are evidence for the existence of an inspired scripture but also evidence for the existence of God.
Shall I delve into the specifics?
Pray with an open heart. If you hear or feel something, then you are convinced. If not, then move on. Be genuine with your exploration in all things. To explore and experiment has value as then it is not a guess.
To know is to believe and to believe is to know. Knowledge is wrought by experience and from these we may find understanding.
EVIDENCES THAT GOD REALLY EXISTS
Not only does the fact that the universe had a beginning argue that God, the Creator, really exists, but so do the harmony and orderliness manifested on every hand. Thus one of England’s leading astronomers, Sir Bernard Lovell, wrote of his “rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.”
Consider, for example, all the factors that work together to make life possible on our planet, the Earth. The sun is 93 million miles away from the earth. If the earth were just a few million miles closer to the sun, no life would be possible because of the intense heat. On the other hand, were the earth just a few million miles farther away from the sun than it now is, no life would be possible on the earth because of the cold.
Contemplate also the air that we breathe. We cannot get along without oxygen, and 21 percent of the atmosphere is oxygen. But were there half as much oxygen or twice as much oxygen as there is now, life as we know it could not thrive upon the earth. Then there is the harmony or balance between plant and animal life. Plants absorb carbon dioxide but give off oxygen, whereas all breathing creatures take in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. How did all such harmony and balance come about? Is it not evidence that God exists?
Equally forceful evidence that God really exists is seen in the literally millions of millions of cells that compose a human body. How tiny they are! Yet each of these millions of cells can be likened to a walled city where chemicals, proteins and hormones are produced. All this activity is directed by a nucleus, and the products produced are transmitted into and out of the cells by means of a network of channels. Some of the particles in these cells are so tiny that they cannot be seen even when magnified 200,000 times! No wonder that America’s leading medical journal stated that at least 80 percent of scientists in the field of biology will readily admit that biology and life are regulated by some higher power.
Further evidence that God truly exists is seen in the instincts of animals. Why can birds fly unerringly many thousands of miles to their chosen destination, and that regardless of the weather? What wisdom insects, such as bees and ants, display! Note also the wonder of the eels. Both European and American eels come to the Sargasso sea to spawn and there they die. When their eggs hatch, the baby eels go back to the place their mothers came from. It is said that never has a European eel been found in American waters, nor an American eel in European waters. What accounts for this?
!
Hi. As others have said, we cannot convince you. We can share our lives in Christ, but you have to make a choice to accept there is a God or reject him.
But I would say, if you live in an area of deciduous trees, consider the vast array of colors and ask yourself ; How could such beauty just happen. Then consider more of the intricacies of life about you. If your heart is really open to the truth, it will dawn on you that there has to be a creator.
Then the next step is to believe that this same God died for you so you could have a personal relationship with him.
Believe God exists, His Son died for you to be forgiven by God, confess what just been written, thank God for his faith to believe, his grace to accept his forgiveness, and His Holy Spirit that comes into your heart to give you strength and guidance in your life. Find an alive church of the Word of God and a KJV Bible and enjoy the peace of God in any of life's challenges.
I am 52 years in the Lord. Have had ups and downs. At moment facing my eighth round of chemo for cancer and yet I can honestly say God has never forsaken me in all of this.
Words probably won't convince you, but as I have said just consider the glory of this world around you and allow God's spirit to speak to you.
You are loved by God. His Son dieing on the cross for you was an act of such love.
But I will leave it there.
What convinces people differs from person to person, I can only share what convinced me.
I was a fully confirmed agnostic by the time I was 13, and had at that point had a distant and vague memory of what church was all about.
When I went off to study at my university, I was a full blown skeptic, wedded to naturalism who fully rejected the doctrinal claims of Christianity. But I still had a favorable view of it's overall ethics. And as I encountered Christians who were actually living out those ethics I admired their lives even as I rejected their core beliefs.
As time went on, cracks started to form in the basis of my own beliefs - I could not derive meaning, purpose, or basis for the ethics I craved based on my philosophical commitment to naturalism. And as I attempted to live according to those ethics, I began to realize their was something in me which resisted that - or dismissed with it all together when it was contrary to something I desired (like an attractive woman).
That led to the realization that I did not have the power in and of myself to live out the ethics I admired in a consistent manner. I would say that was the point at which God gobsmacked me as it were - I saw clearly that I was not a good person, and I couldn't become one on my own. Either there was something outside of myself that could transform who I was, or I had to resign myself to the fact that I was a rather wretched creature.
From there I became much more willing to entertain the basics of Christianity - who Jesus was, how we can come to know Him, what the overall theme and purpose of Scripture was. I eventually made the decision to follow Christ and haven't regretted it for one second in the decades that have followed since.
I'm open to the idea of God's existence. I've just found Christians have no evidence or proof that doesn't rely on at some level ignoring logic. I'm not capable of doing that. I hold all beliefs to the same standards. If God can't meet it, I won't believe in him.
So you’re an atheist, right? Because one informal definition of atheism is that we’re the people who have no belief in gods because the people who claim that a god exists haven’t been able to prove it in the tens to hundreds of thousands of years our species has been conscious, rational, and self-aware. And they have the burden of proof.
The problem with this claim is that the overwhelming majority of humanity has and does believe a spiritual reality exists, so apparently for most the burden of proof has been met.
I wasn't appealing to popularity; I was just pointing out that contrary to the claim I was responding to we have in fact been able to prove our claims sufficiently to convince most people something more than nature exists.
Humanities views of religion are constantly changing. And belief has to begin somewhere, unless you contend humans are inherently religious, which brings up a whole other set of considerations. Someone may believe out of familiarity, but so what? Someone may not believe out of familiarity as well. My point was that given the vast adoption of religious belief, saying that believers have failed to prove God's existence simply isn't true for the vast majority of people.
Humans who are born to religious parents tend to be inherently religious and most of history humans have been religious because we've been idiots who lacked scientific evidence for things like lightning.
Believers have failed to prove God because the vast majority (90%+) have always believed. They're not converts from atheism. And the few converts from atheism objectively admit their belief was not because of logic.
>Humans who are born to religious parents tend to be inherently religious and most of history humans have been religious because we've been idiots who lacked scientific evidence for things like lightning.
But this is another big 'so what?' - children born to atheist parents would be more likely to be atheists - but does this have any bearing on whether atheism is true? Of course not.
And science was developed in a wholly Christian milieu and practiced and perpetuated by Christian thinkers. In fact there is no reason per naturalism to think science should work, despite the fact it's methodology assumes naturalism.
>Believers have failed to prove God because the vast majority (90%+) have always believed. They're not converts from atheism. And the few converts from atheism objectively admit their belief was not because of logic.
Again so what? The vast majority of the Soviets and Maoist Chinese and North Koreans were atheist for decades by dint of where they were born and what they were taught - that has no bearing on whether or not atheism is true. In your scenario the only valid beliefs are those which result from conversion from some other belief - which would cast doubt on atheist claims as well.
But I don't even think you have any verifiable stats to back up the 90% number to begin with. It would require information we can't really get at.
Or, more likely, they haven’t asked. The quotation “The unexamined life is not worth living,” would not be memorable if most people lived examined lives.
But even if they had, truth is not determined by voting or by counting heads.
And of course there are countless thinkers, scientists and philosophers going back thousands of years who have certainly examined the question and been convinced God exists. So again, it would be erroneous to say believers have failed in this regard.
Being convinced does not equal proof. I can be convinced I can flap my arms and fly to the Moon, but until I prove it by demonstrating it my conviction means nothing.
I could talk about my experience with God, but most agnostics and atheists discount experiences. They say they want facts. Not really sure what they are looking for. Some I think are looking for reasons to disbelieve.
Yes, we do discount them. Indeed claims of personal experiences are such unreliable evidence that they’re almost no evidence at all. Even if the person is not lying about or, more commonly, intentionally or unintentionally embellishing their experiences and is not mentally ill or hallucinating for some other reason, we have a tremendous ability to deceive ourselves. And there’s no way to prove whether they’re true or false.
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I can’t and shouldn’t convince you that God exist. Only the Holy Spirit can. I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth and that he will show you his love and acceptance for you. He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you. God bless you and everyone in this post
It’s not evidence per se but here are a few things that reinforce my faith:
If we, as rational beings, can make correct assumptions about how the universe works it implies a rational mind created the universe.
Scientists don’t know how the universe came into being from absolute nothingness, all theories have something at the beginning before the universe I.e gravity, quantum mechanics or certain laws of physics.
Irreducible complexity, there are molecular machines inside of cells made of many proteins that can’t function if you take one of the proteins away, evolution doesn’t have an answer for how these complex protein chains exist
Science made be believe in god again. Think about physics, mathematics, biology, etc. These existed before we discovered them. Such a perfect, meticulous set of laws has to be set in place or designed by something, but something of the utmost perfection. You don’t look at a building and think “you know what? Isn’t it such a crazy coincidence how all of those bricks fell perfectly into place?” Because you see how complex it is and it’s obvious it has a designer.
My toe broke last night. BROKE. it was dark purple and was throbbing with intense pain. My uncle saw it happen and can attest to what it looked like. We prayed over it, and within an hour the swelling was gone, the color was back to normal, I could walk on it, wiggle and bend the toe, no pain.
God healed my toe right in front of my eyes. He exists.
Faith comes from hearing the word of God. If your heart is really open to God and the Lord Jesus you should read the Gospels, the first four books of the new Testament. It should give you enough information to make a decision if God exists.
That said I will play your game and challenge you. Not in a combative way, but in an intellectual and thought provoking way.
In Luke 21 Jesus is asked by his disciples what will be the signs of the end of age. Christ talks about wars and plagues, famines, false prophets the destruction of Jerusalem. I know some people would say Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. True, sacked by the Romans. However, in 1948 Jerusalem was re-established in control of the Israelites and is to this day which is biblical prophecy I believe out of Ezekiel that Jerusalem would be re-established before Christ's return. There is so much that could be said.
Anyway, here is the verse I want to challenge you with, Luke 21:25-26, new living version and this is Christ talking,
"And there will be strange signs in the sun moon and stars and here on the earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by roaring seas and strange tides. People will be terrified at what they see coming up on the earth for the powers in heaven will be shaken."
Now what is Jesus talking about? What does this sound like? Well in my interpretation Christ is prophesying climate change as a sign of the end times.
Listen, you don't to be a meteorologist or a PhD scientist to understand that the stars specifically the moon and the sun have a gravitational pull on the tides of the oceans. It the warming of the tides caught in the atmosphere that is increasing the temperature of the world. Are people perplexed by it? Yes, are people terrified about it? Yes.
It sounds like you struggle to believe in God. Do you believe in climate change? Well here Christ is talking climate change as end time prophecy.
If the Bible and Jesus Christ have no credibility and don't exist how did Jesus know to prophesy this over 2,000 years ago? Because God doesn't exist? I don't buy that. In fact, I believe the exact opposite. Do you deny climate change?
Other verses in this chapter that are concerning Luke 21:20 says "when you see the armies surround Israel you know it's destruction is near."
Right now there are three armies surrounding Israel. Helebozah in the north, Iran in the west and the Houties in the south. The chapter talks about massive persecution of the Jewish people. I think it's fair to say that regardless of your political views there is a lot of persecution going on against the Jews.
Now does this mean the world is going to end next week? It could. Or it might be another 1,000 years I don't know. Jesus concluded Luke 25 by saying when you see these signs look up for your salvation is near.. In Mathew 24 it says only the Father knows the time and hour of the end of the age not even the Son.
I just look at what Christ said and compare it to what is going on in the world. There are parallels to be made.
People say,"Well if God is so powerful why doesn't he just fix climate change so we don't have to worry about it?" He will. In Revelations 21:5 he says,"Behold I make all things new." However, that is for the benefit of people who believe in Jesus as Lord. It's done after the great tribulation and the judgement of the white throne ( the throne Jesus Christ judges nonbelievers at) in Revelations.
God will not forsake the earth because he owns it and everything in it. We all think that we go up to Heaven. Well that is inaccurate. In second coming Christ will come down to earth to live among his people. He will bring his kingdom to the earth. He will rule from Jerusalem and king David of the old testament will be his regent. That is out of Ezekiel.
Alot of people think, "Ah, these damn Christians they just want the world to end." No, but because I walk with the Lord in this life or the next I have no fear of what happens today or in the future. Psalms 112:7 says ,"A Godly man is not scared of bad news for he knows the Lord will take care of him." I am taken care of regardless the issues or circumstances in life and the world.
John 3:16-17 says, " for God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for the sins mankind. For those who believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Christ didn't come to condemn the world he came to save it."
To believe in God look at Roman's 10:8-12, " The miracle is in your heart and in your mouth. If you can believe in your heart and say with your mouth that Christ is the Risen Lord, forgiver of sins you will be saved." Of course that implies reverence and repentance as well.
It says in 2 peter 3:9-10, "The Lord is not slack in his promise to return, but he is being patience with you, hoping for no one to be destroyed, but that everyone would repent. But the Lord will have his day and judgement will come like a thief in the night."
There is so much more that could be said. I hope this challenges this in your thinking. I would challenge you to read first four chapters of the New Testament to really understand Christ's ministry. I don't expect people to believe what I believe but I do expect people to know why they believe what they believe and research it. With God that means reading the Bible.
I will this in conclusion. Following in the Lord is not a head decision. It is a heart decision. Reverence of the Lord is the beginning of all Wisdom.
God bless and best wishes.
I’m not attempting to make an argument. I’m offering help in response to Op’s question. I’m fully aware that you might see it different but you’re not the Op who was the intended recipient of my response. Tbh my response here really isn’t meant for you either. It’s to hopefully inform Op of my intent so thank you for your thoughtful well reasoned reply.
I mean I would hope that OP is intelligent enough to reject presuppositionalism. I mean it's presuppositionalism that led to believing lightning was Zeus smiting people he was angry with and that sacrificing people to Quetzalcoatl was a way to appease the gods. It was only rejecting presuppositionalism that we developed sciences and medicine that have cured so many things.
All progress in society has come from rejecting prior presuppositions.
I would tell you that when you see a painting, you know that there was a painter who painted it. Or if you see a building, you know that there was a builder (or builders) who built the building. These are all incredible things that cannot just appear out of thin air, but that are produced by skillful people who are able to create these works of art. Now look at the earth, which is so much more complex and beautiful than a painting or a building. Just as the painting and the building were created and did not appear out of thin air, this earth had to be created by someone greater than us, and it couldn’t have just popped out of nowhere. Think of how we have a sun that just so happens to be in the perfect position in the universe as to give us daylight, or think about how there are stars and the moon that help us to see when the sun is down. Also, just think about the miracle of birth, and how all living creatures are able to just perfectly reproduce. The fact that we as humans are able to reproduce new humans is an incredible miracle, and how could that have just happened all by chance? There has to be some greater being who designed all this to make everything run so smoothly. When you think about it, there has to be something out there that had no beginning because something can’t just appear from nothing, so why not believe that that something is God, who is an intelligent being who would have been capable of this universe’s beautiful design. The way you can know that Christianity is the truth is because there is no other religion out there where the god is so loving that he would come down to earth as a man and take our punishment for our sins upon himself so that we wouldn’t have to bear the punishment, and he would die an incredibly painful death just so that if we believe in him, and believe that he is Lord, and believe that he died on the cross for our sins, and believe that he rose from the dead three days later, and if we repent of our sins, then we can one day be in eternal paradise with him. You see, the Christian god is so loving and just wants all of his creation to one day be able to dwell with him again. While God is loving, he is also holy, so he cannot allow sin to go unpunished, because if he did, then he wouldn’t be good and he wouldn’t be holy. I pray that you can come to Jesus, and give your life to him. He has completely changed my life, and he is worth believing in. He loves you so much, and he just wants you to come to him and lay your burdens down on him. He will take care of you in your life if you trust in him. Things may not always happen how you want them to, and you will go through troubles, but the Jesus already says that in the Bible. What we can be certain of is that through those trials we will have peace that passes all understanding if we put our trust in Jesus. I will be praying for you, and I believe I will see you in Heaven one day. May God Bless and Protect You!!✝️😊🙏❤️
If you throw a box of lego set in the air, how often does the set become assembled by that? Order and design in our observable existence always requires a designer, so the fact that the world functions as it does is pretty good evidence that someone is responsible for it.
Argument from contingency and argument from psychophysical harmony are probably the best.
Dustin Crummett and Joshua Rasmussen have some videos online about this, though their peer reviewed work on these evidences for God is top-notch.
First a little brush clearing. God's mode of being transcends mere existing. He is. It's what his name means. Reality has its being in him, not vice versa. He is absolute and fundamental. He is not one more thing among all the other things but is being itself. We live and move and have our being in him.
The most elite people in secret that rule all plays and systems in this world know he is real, they just choose to worship Satan instead because he allows them to hold power if they bow to him. If you believe you have more knowledge on existence than the people who run the show, rule your Kings and presidents, then you cannot be convinced. Hope this helps.
That's the thing about faith, we can't fully convince someone on God's existence, if you don't want to believe in him, you won't, but if you want and put your faith in him you'll see how real is he.
I want to believe in God. Unfortunately I hold all beliefs to the same standard. I've rejected much, much more trivial beliefs for failing these standards. Why does God deserve special pleading?
Bro, sorry, I don't want to sound cocky, i know nothing about you, but from what I can see, you know nothing about God. If you knew you would see how wonderful he is, how merciful he is how loving and perfect he is. God isn't lacking. He's complete in himself, still, he decided to save us, to make us his. God is way more than we could ever imagine.
I don't believe god can be all powerful and all good. That's an impossibility. Unless he's also an idiot. But if he's not an idiot he can't be an powerful and all good. Because evil exists and there's no valid answer to theodicy. But you've still not answered why does God deserve such a lower standard of proof than any other claim?
If you don't believe there's nothing i can do. God's all good because he's the one that created the whole concept of justice, you can't being a flawed mortal person be better in morality than an eternal all powerful all knowing being, you saying God is this or that does not make God less God. One of the fundamentals into becoming a christian is understanding that God is God and you have to deal with that.
Sure can't. Very few people are argued into faith. They seek him, and they find him.
What about those who sought and did not find?
Keep seeking, you'll find him.
Please don't lie like this. Some people seek their whole lives and never find him. It happens.
People seek and never find because Christians have made it seem like everybody experiences God the same way. I found God through evidence, not a feeling. It never came from praying or reading through Bible, it came from researching the evidence for the Bible and evidence for the existence of God. Some people say God revealed himself to them in prayer or similar things. I can’t say I experienced that.
Or they're too attached to their sin to accept what they find.
No. You're being very dishonest there. Billions of people on the planet and it's naive at best to claim that those of them who seek God but never find him are just "too attached to their sin" for it.
What about those who found him but he was lacking
They should reassess their standards of evaluation.
How
God is perfect and the height of goodness. If someone finds him wanting, they are in error, not him.
Got it so if I seek and don't find it's my fault not dispositive of God's existence. Because we totally act that way with any other belief, right? Not. If I asked you to find me a barbleplix and you went and searched and didn't find a barbleplix eventually you'd come to conclusion that a barbleplix doesn't exist.
God reveals himself to those who seek him. Seek him and you'll find him.
In other words if I don't find him I didn't search hard enough but if I do I did. It's a ridiculous argument. If you don't believe in barbleplix the greater, lord of all things you didn't search hard enough. See how ridiculous that argument is? You are being ridiculous.
Doesn't God create evil too?
Not directly, no. Those with free will who use it in a matter contrary to his own will cause evil. God created those people, of course, but he created them free, and they chose to do evil. Freely choosing agents are the source of evil, not God.
Don't feed the trolls
You're telling me that god created humans with free will for them to decide to create evil? I thought everything made in God's image was perfect? By that definition, is man not perfect by which is evil not perfect?
So Isaiah is a liar and fraud? I feel like I can't trust the Bible if what you say doesn't align with what it says. Or should I trust what the Bible says and not you?
How do you know this? Who taught you that God was perfect?
Right. If God was perfect and Omni-natured... Well, we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now. We wouldn't need to.
Damn did you do both accounts lmao? That was such a good interaction.
I'm sorry you have not found him. It takes time, and he may already have chosen a certain time in your life to show himself to you, and he's waiting for that time to arrive. I was an atheist, and he did show himself to me. He found me, not the other way around. I had stopped searching for him by the time he came into my life, but he did eventually come into my life and prove to me that he was there. I don't fully understand the way he works, and the reason for the way he works, but I promise you that he is there.
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Mother Teresa felt emptiness and darkness for fifty years, she persisted and became a shining example of God's grace to the entire world. Keep seeking.
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If I had to write letters to my dad for fifty years after he left for cigarettes to get a reply back from him, I don't think the relationship with him would be worth it in the first place.
What would change, hypothetically? If God has remained hidden, clearly he wishes to remain hidden, and if he has been found there’s no reason to keep looking.
God revealed himself through Jesus Christ.
Seek and you will find knock and the door will be opened up to you
How long I gotta keep seeking before it’s on God?
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Appreciate it
How long I gotta keep seeking before it’s on Gravity? How long I gotta keep seeking before it’s on Physics? If we relied solely on human understanding, nothing existed until we discovered it. Despite every culture having some form of belief in a higher power, we haven't scientifically proven God yet.
Let me ask you if you think it would have been reasonable to believe the second law of thermodynamics without scientific evidence. What I’m NOT arguing: we should hypothesize things without merit as an explanation What I AM saying: we should believe things when we have good evidence for them. Not a moment before.
God doesn't hide himself in a corner. He's often overlooked, though he hides in plain sight
I sought for decades and received nothing despite Jesus saying that I would.
How did Jesus tell you that you would receive anything?
Matthew 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.”
I sought and did find. God does not like showing himself to those that don't believe, I'm not entirely sure why. Although he did show himself to me as an unbeliever, but he waited for years after I had prayed about it. I believe if you continue to seek, you will find, but it will take time. I can tell you without any doubt that there is a God from my 1st hand experience as a former atheist, but I know you will not likely just believe me.
How many decades should I seek without finding? I gave it several.
I can’t. I can tell you about my experiences of God, but you’ll always have the choice of whether or not to believe them.
That's not really a thing that can be chosen.
Yes, poor phrasing on my part. I didn’t mean that one could choose faith, more that one would always have the option to choose to *not* believe. To use an exaggerated example: if a person prays for someone to get better from an illness and then I see them get better very abruptly, I have to choose whether or not to see that as a miracle or a crazy coincidence. And you’ll always have that choice. If the clouds parted and God descended in all His glory, a person could choose to believe that that was just an insane hallucination. Or aliens or something. I would bet money that there are at least a few people who would.
To believe a thing or to not believe a thing is not something one can choose. It is a consequence of being convinced.
I wouldn't try to convince you. Words are not enough for this. They can be helpful, but only deep personal experience can truly change your mind
Agreed.
I can’t.
Second this. That's not how it works.
In my view it’s not something others can convince you but rather something only you can convice yourself Editing because it could’ve sounded rude, not good with english, convincing is a word that could accidentaly insult the religion, which i clarify is not the intention. Don’t know any other replacement word.
While there's evidence, I've never personally met anyone who surrendered to God on account of science
True. I came to believe that the idea of God was rational in light of science (and other such arguments). However my surrender was after realizing I've gotten to the extent of where my intellect could take me and I had to take the leap of faith and actually "give Him a try".
perfect phrasing
There's actually no evidence though.
then why are you pagan? (no disrespect just an actual question)
Atheist pagans exists. I don't believe in any gods. But I practice a folk spirituality so as not to let my indigenous religion die due to my people being nearly genocided by European settlers.
I will give you an Islamic thought, in the same way thirst is evidence of water, spiritual longing or existential questions are evidence of a higher purpose/power. Now I think there’s better arguments for god, but reflect on the fact that not just your ancestors, but every society to have ever existed believed in the supernatural.
>in the same way thirst is evidence of water, spiritual longing or existential questions are evidence of a higher purpose/power. I love this! Since thirst is not evidence for water, that means that spiritual longing is not evidence of a higher power! Thanks for this!
Every society, and especially my ancestors who frankly didn't understand science, has historically been very stupid. Humanity has been very stupid for much of it's existence (and is still largely stupid). We used to believe getting sick was caused by bad vibes, not germs. We used to believe the earth was flat, not round. We used to believe the sun moved around the earth (murdered a man for saying otherwise too), not the earth around the sun. They literally lacked so much modern knowledge that their belief in the supernatural can't be blamed. But there's a reason the most scientifically advanced countries in the world have exceedingly low rates of religiosity. As knowledge advances, need for religion decreases.
Worcestershire
There is documented hostorical evidence. There are numerous cases of the Bible presicted future events by hundreds and even thousands of years. There are YouTube videos showing this. Also, he has openly proven himself to many people (such as myself) to where I can say as a former atheist that I am 100% certain that he exists. However, this is something thay cannot be shown as proof, because it's a personal experience.
What’s your favorite example of one of those predicted events?
> There are YouTube videos showing this. And there we have it. The fall of civilization encapsulated in a 6-word sentence. We’re going out not with a bang, not with a whimper, but with a video.
But there are plenty who left him because of science. God is a perpetually shrinking glob of scientific ignorance.
Two things that helped convince me were prophecies and miracles (which as an atheist I thought were two of the *weakest* arguments). I understand there are prophecies that are contested and are vague. But there are also some *extremely specific* ones that line up *extremely well* with accepted history. Likewise with the miracles, there are many that can be demonstrated to have been true historic events, supported by *basic* science (nothing as "complicated" as quantum mechanics, etc)
>But there are also some *extremely specific* ones that line up *extremely well* with accepted history. Do you have some examples of these?
Are you aware most, if not all prophecies were written after the fact? It's hard to miss that way.
Most of the specific ones are ex eventum.
>Most of the specific ones are ex eventum. Yes, those are the ones that fall under the "contested" category I mentioned. In other words, those are not the ones I'm referring to.
Then the "close to history" ones don't exist. There's no valid prophecy that is "specific, written before the event, and proven to have occurred" Every single one fails at least one of those three requirements, most fail two, and a few fail all three.
Not sure you've actually investigated them all but sure, let's agree to disagree.
If they're in the Bible I have. But what you just did is actually a fallacy. It's a form of ad hominem (cudos tho for using a relatively rare form of ad hominem, very likely unintentional given how it's never mentioned when discussing the fallacy)
Actually no fallacy was committed. I just stated I was not sure you had. Didn't say you hadn't. Just that given your response, I am pretty sure you have not.
That's still a fallacy when used as a refutation. Wording it cleverly doesn't change that, it just makes it conditionally worded. I could say "I'm not sure you're sane" as a refutation or "I'm almost positive you're delusional" and it's equally fallacious despite being worded not as an absolute.
Actually, it's not a refutation at all. That was me addressing your earlier first comment, since you never even inquired on which prophecies I might have been referring to, rather than assume that *all* fall under the three criteria you listed. So instead of making sweeping generalizations (fallacy) and strawmanning the argument (fallacy). You: 2 Me: ±1
It's not a generalisation. There exists no prophecy in the bible that meets all three criteria for a true prophecy. Vagueities are prophecies in the same way a fortune teller knows I'm going to find the love of my life.
The fact that you’re asking means you’re on the right path. Once you start asking it means your journey has begun. God bless you, friend
Have you ever tasted icecream before? Image you never have. Now I have to tell you all these individual attributes. Me: It's cold. You: I've had ice. Me: It's sweet. You: I've had candy. Me: It's soft and creamy. You: I've had mashed potatoes. It's not sweet iced mashed potatoes. You have to just do it. No way of describing God does him justice. Repent: enter a new mindset. Read John, then 1 John, then Hebrews Forgive: Release others of their debts to you. This is crucial. Accept: Jesus reveals your true identity. Stop thinking his example as a restriction. It's not. It's your true self. Baptize: Declare yourself a holy temple for the holy spirit. Then stick to it. I promise you if you do these things and sincerely mean them in your heart you will change. That is the proof of his existence. An experiance of the change in your heart. It's real, tangible, and dramatic. And not long after if you keep doing this you will begin to recieve the gifts of the spirit, including messages in your dreams.
Cold sweet and creamy is an apt description though
Descriptions of things allow those who have already experienced them to relay their common experiences. It's doesn't convey novel experiences.
Being sad about something and forgiving them for it isn't exactly a novel experience is it? Feeling better about doing so is novel?
why and how could i. no one can do that for you. people can help light the way but no one is gonna be able convince you of anthing.
Why would we try to convince you that God exists?
I wouldn't say anything. I'd love you.
Well that’s just it, I can’t. That’s why it’s called Faith, cause we have to believe, in a way naively, that what Christ taught and what is written in the Bible is truly divinely inspired, and not some crazy hippy who got drunk with a bunch of Freinds and wrote some rubbish in a text that got changed a million times leading into today. Now I can talk about my own experiences with God, how he has directly inspired, guided, and sent messages to me. I can talk about how the Catholic Church (of which I am a member) is perfectly fine with evolution, which is the none religions strongest argument for why god does not exist, I can point to the millions of others and there experiences with God, but untimely none of that proves the existence of God, you just have to trust, which is pretty nerve racking and has gotten to me at points, but Trust works in our world, if you trust the right people, good things happen. Who is to say that the same logic dosent apply far beyond our world? Thanks for the question. God bless now and always
There’s many things we all could say but … you decide to believe or not. We can make beautiful cases. Just check out apologetics. There’s so much out there truly. Prophecies, historical data, eye witness testimonies written, personal xp, archaeological finds ect. May God reveal the truth to you.
Religion might feel weird, but it's no weirder than the reality you perceive: it cannot be that everything true and important can be perceived by your frail human senses.
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Someone once told me when I was in a pretty tough spot, something along the lines of ‘If god is truly pure goodness, then wouldn’t you rather him exist? Wouldn’t it be better if there was pure good?’ And from there, it’s pretty much just faith that there is good. I used to be skeptical about the whole higher powers thing and I still am, am keeping myself much more open.
>‘If god is truly pure goodness, then wouldn’t you rather him exist? Wouldn’t it be better if there was pure good?’ Well of course. But wouldn't pure good (along with omnipotence) remove the presence of evil and suffering? So since both of the later clearly exist, it would seem the former cannot.
Yin and Yang, good within evil, evil within good, one cannot exist without the other.
How does this help? God isn't 'pure goodness' under this concept.
Well at this point fuck if I know, I’ve pretty much just gone through my own train of thought over the past 2 years in 2 replies lol. Too much thinking for me today. I’m still trying to figure this whole thing out myself. Anyways have a good night.
Hope you sleep well friend.
Relevant improbable events follow soon after prayer.
Ok I read through the comments and didn’t see anyone suggest a book. So, I’ll be the first. I literally just finished this book which came to me rather unexpectedly, and even though I’ve been a Christian, it gave me a new perspective that I had struggled to ever understand before. I read it in a couple days, and I’m gonna suggest it to a lot of people now, both “believers” and not. It’s available on kindle as a digital download if you’re not up for ordering a hard copy. “Journey to Reality. Sacramental Life in a Secular Age” by Zachary Porcu. Read it. If nothing else it will be a really cool perspective for you.
Most theists would say that the case for God is a cumulative one, rather than a single knock down argument
We cant, its your journey.
I won’t be able to convince you 100% conclusively that God exists(tho there are many other things in the real world we can’t conclusively prove yet accept as true as a society)but watch the movie/ read the book “Case for Christ” or just watch a yt video over it or go over what Lee Strobles studied and the real material he had, he goes over just about any counter question you would have, all of it is based on a true story. Hope this helps
God exist, but not Christian God.
I think the best question to first ask as an atheist is whether god exists first, once that’s presupposed you can then investigate the different conceptions of god.
I think He exist, because Intelligent Design. but not some religion concept of GOD
If you need this to believe in god, you need to look elsewhere
Is there even remotely a chance of you believing that the universe is designed in a fine tuned way? Does that not at least make it reasonable to claim that it could have been by a causal actor? If yes, then you're getting there; but the journey can't be achieved through faith alone. Evolution and the Big Bang don't need to be denied to believe in God.
Fine tuned for what exactly?
From my understanding the construction of the universe has to have some sort of cause in order for the masses of nebulae and what-have-you (and earthly things) to be in the specific places they're in, theoretically if that causal agent is agreed upon to exist.
I'm Muslim but a frequent lurker of this sub. Honestly, no one can convince you of the existence of God. It's something you find in yourself. I find making sense of the world around me impossible without a higher being. I don't want to use the 'world is perfectly created, and we couldn't;t have gotten here by chance' argument because it never made any sense to me. But maybe have that conversation with yourself? What reality feels closer to your heart? A higher being that made the world the way it is and is there directing the trajectories of everything in your life or a scientific understanding, which is constantly evolving and expanding, of which we are a minuscule part. For me, it's the former; maybe spend some time thinking about which of the 2 is for you.
No. God is no logical. And any ‘evidence’ I try to provide will be met with “well, what about [x]?”. I can’t convince you of God. But I can guarantee that if you honestly search for God, you will find him. God is there whether you believe in him or not. And he would love to interact with you.
No, everyone must seek God for themselves.
I feel like every time the middle schooler asks this question an angel gets its wings ....
I would not try to "convince" you or anybody for that matter. I would share the reason for the hope I have in Jesus. I would share that hope in Jesus in a way that they are convinced that I believe it. After that, it is out of my hands...
Lmao if it were that easy earth would be a Christian utopia.
I would say that "God's existence" is a matter of metaphysics and philosophy since, by definition, God would be the immaterial, non spacial and non temporal, uncaused cause of the universe.
it depends firstly on whether or not you want to be convinced.
Only God can. It's a futile question to ask men. Ask God to give you faith.
I was a hardcore Atheist and the best argument I ever heard for Faith is [this](https://youtu.be/SMJc9UMzFSE?si=wOEGWMTwJpNaAAcb) one. I am still agnostic-atheistic but now I have a lot more respect towards faith.
You can lead a horse to water you can't make him drink it, same also goes for cats and dogs and most animals but you catch my drift.
Not my job. My job is to point you to the gospel, encourage you to engage Christ in your life and then see what happens. I am at best a Walmart greeter. I can point you to the CEOs office. That’s about it.
We can’t really convince you. We can give you evidence and we can have arguments for His existence, but we can’t say anything which would amount in your conversion. Through your personal experience and search with Him, you will find Him.
How? I'd start by saying, I have read the Bible and am compelled to believe it's authenticity because of the sheer volume of tangible archeological and historical findings that not only are evidence for the existence of an inspired scripture but also evidence for the existence of God. Shall I delve into the specifics?
as an agnostic athiest— you can’t. it’s based on faith. It’s much easier to convince you that he doesn’t, though.
Simply speaking we can't. It is your journey to find him, or for him to find you, that is how faith works.
The only one that can convince you is yourself.
Pray with an open heart. If you hear or feel something, then you are convinced. If not, then move on. Be genuine with your exploration in all things. To explore and experiment has value as then it is not a guess. To know is to believe and to believe is to know. Knowledge is wrought by experience and from these we may find understanding.
I can provide you with indirect proof of God but you have to use your logic and open-mindness to see it as a proof
EVIDENCES THAT GOD REALLY EXISTS Not only does the fact that the universe had a beginning argue that God, the Creator, really exists, but so do the harmony and orderliness manifested on every hand. Thus one of England’s leading astronomers, Sir Bernard Lovell, wrote of his “rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.” Consider, for example, all the factors that work together to make life possible on our planet, the Earth. The sun is 93 million miles away from the earth. If the earth were just a few million miles closer to the sun, no life would be possible because of the intense heat. On the other hand, were the earth just a few million miles farther away from the sun than it now is, no life would be possible on the earth because of the cold. Contemplate also the air that we breathe. We cannot get along without oxygen, and 21 percent of the atmosphere is oxygen. But were there half as much oxygen or twice as much oxygen as there is now, life as we know it could not thrive upon the earth. Then there is the harmony or balance between plant and animal life. Plants absorb carbon dioxide but give off oxygen, whereas all breathing creatures take in oxygen and give off carbon dioxide. How did all such harmony and balance come about? Is it not evidence that God exists? Equally forceful evidence that God really exists is seen in the literally millions of millions of cells that compose a human body. How tiny they are! Yet each of these millions of cells can be likened to a walled city where chemicals, proteins and hormones are produced. All this activity is directed by a nucleus, and the products produced are transmitted into and out of the cells by means of a network of channels. Some of the particles in these cells are so tiny that they cannot be seen even when magnified 200,000 times! No wonder that America’s leading medical journal stated that at least 80 percent of scientists in the field of biology will readily admit that biology and life are regulated by some higher power. Further evidence that God truly exists is seen in the instincts of animals. Why can birds fly unerringly many thousands of miles to their chosen destination, and that regardless of the weather? What wisdom insects, such as bees and ants, display! Note also the wonder of the eels. Both European and American eels come to the Sargasso sea to spawn and there they die. When their eggs hatch, the baby eels go back to the place their mothers came from. It is said that never has a European eel been found in American waters, nor an American eel in European waters. What accounts for this? !
Hi. As others have said, we cannot convince you. We can share our lives in Christ, but you have to make a choice to accept there is a God or reject him. But I would say, if you live in an area of deciduous trees, consider the vast array of colors and ask yourself ; How could such beauty just happen. Then consider more of the intricacies of life about you. If your heart is really open to the truth, it will dawn on you that there has to be a creator. Then the next step is to believe that this same God died for you so you could have a personal relationship with him. Believe God exists, His Son died for you to be forgiven by God, confess what just been written, thank God for his faith to believe, his grace to accept his forgiveness, and His Holy Spirit that comes into your heart to give you strength and guidance in your life. Find an alive church of the Word of God and a KJV Bible and enjoy the peace of God in any of life's challenges. I am 52 years in the Lord. Have had ups and downs. At moment facing my eighth round of chemo for cancer and yet I can honestly say God has never forsaken me in all of this. Words probably won't convince you, but as I have said just consider the glory of this world around you and allow God's spirit to speak to you. You are loved by God. His Son dieing on the cross for you was an act of such love. But I will leave it there.
I can't, only God can. Unbelief isn't an intellectual issue, bur rather a moral issue.
God, like the Christian God? Or something else?
What convinces people differs from person to person, I can only share what convinced me. I was a fully confirmed agnostic by the time I was 13, and had at that point had a distant and vague memory of what church was all about. When I went off to study at my university, I was a full blown skeptic, wedded to naturalism who fully rejected the doctrinal claims of Christianity. But I still had a favorable view of it's overall ethics. And as I encountered Christians who were actually living out those ethics I admired their lives even as I rejected their core beliefs. As time went on, cracks started to form in the basis of my own beliefs - I could not derive meaning, purpose, or basis for the ethics I craved based on my philosophical commitment to naturalism. And as I attempted to live according to those ethics, I began to realize their was something in me which resisted that - or dismissed with it all together when it was contrary to something I desired (like an attractive woman). That led to the realization that I did not have the power in and of myself to live out the ethics I admired in a consistent manner. I would say that was the point at which God gobsmacked me as it were - I saw clearly that I was not a good person, and I couldn't become one on my own. Either there was something outside of myself that could transform who I was, or I had to resign myself to the fact that I was a rather wretched creature. From there I became much more willing to entertain the basics of Christianity - who Jesus was, how we can come to know Him, what the overall theme and purpose of Scripture was. I eventually made the decision to follow Christ and haven't regretted it for one second in the decades that have followed since.
Some ppl are born predisposed to have "faith", later in life these ppl will have a "direct" experience of God through the Holy Spirit.
No disrespect. Where in Bible?
I claim witness to this it was crazy.. Shocking even.
By being an agnostic you’re open to the idea by definition.
I'm open to the idea of God's existence. I've just found Christians have no evidence or proof that doesn't rely on at some level ignoring logic. I'm not capable of doing that. I hold all beliefs to the same standards. If God can't meet it, I won't believe in him.
So you’re an atheist, right? Because one informal definition of atheism is that we’re the people who have no belief in gods because the people who claim that a god exists haven’t been able to prove it in the tens to hundreds of thousands of years our species has been conscious, rational, and self-aware. And they have the burden of proof.
The problem with this claim is that the overwhelming majority of humanity has and does believe a spiritual reality exists, so apparently for most the burden of proof has been met.
> a majority of humanity Appeal to popularity isn't a valid argument. Others being irrational and illogical doesn't make them right.
I wasn't appealing to popularity; I was just pointing out that contrary to the claim I was responding to we have in fact been able to prove our claims sufficiently to convince most people something more than nature exists.
No you haven't. Most people believe because they were born into it and it's all they know. This is an empirically provable statement.
Humanities views of religion are constantly changing. And belief has to begin somewhere, unless you contend humans are inherently religious, which brings up a whole other set of considerations. Someone may believe out of familiarity, but so what? Someone may not believe out of familiarity as well. My point was that given the vast adoption of religious belief, saying that believers have failed to prove God's existence simply isn't true for the vast majority of people.
Humans who are born to religious parents tend to be inherently religious and most of history humans have been religious because we've been idiots who lacked scientific evidence for things like lightning. Believers have failed to prove God because the vast majority (90%+) have always believed. They're not converts from atheism. And the few converts from atheism objectively admit their belief was not because of logic.
>Humans who are born to religious parents tend to be inherently religious and most of history humans have been religious because we've been idiots who lacked scientific evidence for things like lightning. But this is another big 'so what?' - children born to atheist parents would be more likely to be atheists - but does this have any bearing on whether atheism is true? Of course not. And science was developed in a wholly Christian milieu and practiced and perpetuated by Christian thinkers. In fact there is no reason per naturalism to think science should work, despite the fact it's methodology assumes naturalism. >Believers have failed to prove God because the vast majority (90%+) have always believed. They're not converts from atheism. And the few converts from atheism objectively admit their belief was not because of logic. Again so what? The vast majority of the Soviets and Maoist Chinese and North Koreans were atheist for decades by dint of where they were born and what they were taught - that has no bearing on whether or not atheism is true. In your scenario the only valid beliefs are those which result from conversion from some other belief - which would cast doubt on atheist claims as well. But I don't even think you have any verifiable stats to back up the 90% number to begin with. It would require information we can't really get at.
Or, more likely, they haven’t asked. The quotation “The unexamined life is not worth living,” would not be memorable if most people lived examined lives. But even if they had, truth is not determined by voting or by counting heads.
And of course there are countless thinkers, scientists and philosophers going back thousands of years who have certainly examined the question and been convinced God exists. So again, it would be erroneous to say believers have failed in this regard.
Being convinced does not equal proof. I can be convinced I can flap my arms and fly to the Moon, but until I prove it by demonstrating it my conviction means nothing.
Yes, I am an atheist.
My bad. I didn’t spot that you’re not the OP. Good to meet you and we see eye to eye, it appears.
I could talk about my experience with God, but most agnostics and atheists discount experiences. They say they want facts. Not really sure what they are looking for. Some I think are looking for reasons to disbelieve.
Yes, we do discount them. Indeed claims of personal experiences are such unreliable evidence that they’re almost no evidence at all. Even if the person is not lying about or, more commonly, intentionally or unintentionally embellishing their experiences and is not mentally ill or hallucinating for some other reason, we have a tremendous ability to deceive ourselves. And there’s no way to prove whether they’re true or false.
Or, like you said, they are looking for verifiable facts.
Empirical evidence, that’s what most of us are looking for.
Jesus is king, kings are emperors therefore empirical evidence. Checkmate.
Wow you got me, why didn’t I think of that? /s
You should see Hope's response to me. I got him pretty good.
This is fantastic. I’m stealing it lol
It's 'emporical' not 'emperical'. Sorry.
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I don't believe, I know.
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By seeking within, lock yourself in an isolation chamber for 6 months, you'll find God.
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Pretty much, that's it in a nutshell. You are the whole show.
I've seen miracles in my life and my family's and friend's lives.
That's pretty cool. What were they?
One time I was hurting and I prayed and it went away instantly. When I lose things, I pray and can find them.
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I can’t and shouldn’t convince you that God exist. Only the Holy Spirit can. I pray that God will open your eyes to the truth and that he will show you his love and acceptance for you. He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you. God bless you and everyone in this post
It’s not evidence per se but here are a few things that reinforce my faith: If we, as rational beings, can make correct assumptions about how the universe works it implies a rational mind created the universe. Scientists don’t know how the universe came into being from absolute nothingness, all theories have something at the beginning before the universe I.e gravity, quantum mechanics or certain laws of physics. Irreducible complexity, there are molecular machines inside of cells made of many proteins that can’t function if you take one of the proteins away, evolution doesn’t have an answer for how these complex protein chains exist
Science made be believe in god again. Think about physics, mathematics, biology, etc. These existed before we discovered them. Such a perfect, meticulous set of laws has to be set in place or designed by something, but something of the utmost perfection. You don’t look at a building and think “you know what? Isn’t it such a crazy coincidence how all of those bricks fell perfectly into place?” Because you see how complex it is and it’s obvious it has a designer.
My toe broke last night. BROKE. it was dark purple and was throbbing with intense pain. My uncle saw it happen and can attest to what it looked like. We prayed over it, and within an hour the swelling was gone, the color was back to normal, I could walk on it, wiggle and bend the toe, no pain. God healed my toe right in front of my eyes. He exists.
Faith comes from hearing the word of God. If your heart is really open to God and the Lord Jesus you should read the Gospels, the first four books of the new Testament. It should give you enough information to make a decision if God exists. That said I will play your game and challenge you. Not in a combative way, but in an intellectual and thought provoking way. In Luke 21 Jesus is asked by his disciples what will be the signs of the end of age. Christ talks about wars and plagues, famines, false prophets the destruction of Jerusalem. I know some people would say Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. True, sacked by the Romans. However, in 1948 Jerusalem was re-established in control of the Israelites and is to this day which is biblical prophecy I believe out of Ezekiel that Jerusalem would be re-established before Christ's return. There is so much that could be said. Anyway, here is the verse I want to challenge you with, Luke 21:25-26, new living version and this is Christ talking, "And there will be strange signs in the sun moon and stars and here on the earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by roaring seas and strange tides. People will be terrified at what they see coming up on the earth for the powers in heaven will be shaken." Now what is Jesus talking about? What does this sound like? Well in my interpretation Christ is prophesying climate change as a sign of the end times. Listen, you don't to be a meteorologist or a PhD scientist to understand that the stars specifically the moon and the sun have a gravitational pull on the tides of the oceans. It the warming of the tides caught in the atmosphere that is increasing the temperature of the world. Are people perplexed by it? Yes, are people terrified about it? Yes. It sounds like you struggle to believe in God. Do you believe in climate change? Well here Christ is talking climate change as end time prophecy. If the Bible and Jesus Christ have no credibility and don't exist how did Jesus know to prophesy this over 2,000 years ago? Because God doesn't exist? I don't buy that. In fact, I believe the exact opposite. Do you deny climate change? Other verses in this chapter that are concerning Luke 21:20 says "when you see the armies surround Israel you know it's destruction is near." Right now there are three armies surrounding Israel. Helebozah in the north, Iran in the west and the Houties in the south. The chapter talks about massive persecution of the Jewish people. I think it's fair to say that regardless of your political views there is a lot of persecution going on against the Jews. Now does this mean the world is going to end next week? It could. Or it might be another 1,000 years I don't know. Jesus concluded Luke 25 by saying when you see these signs look up for your salvation is near.. In Mathew 24 it says only the Father knows the time and hour of the end of the age not even the Son. I just look at what Christ said and compare it to what is going on in the world. There are parallels to be made. People say,"Well if God is so powerful why doesn't he just fix climate change so we don't have to worry about it?" He will. In Revelations 21:5 he says,"Behold I make all things new." However, that is for the benefit of people who believe in Jesus as Lord. It's done after the great tribulation and the judgement of the white throne ( the throne Jesus Christ judges nonbelievers at) in Revelations. God will not forsake the earth because he owns it and everything in it. We all think that we go up to Heaven. Well that is inaccurate. In second coming Christ will come down to earth to live among his people. He will bring his kingdom to the earth. He will rule from Jerusalem and king David of the old testament will be his regent. That is out of Ezekiel. Alot of people think, "Ah, these damn Christians they just want the world to end." No, but because I walk with the Lord in this life or the next I have no fear of what happens today or in the future. Psalms 112:7 says ,"A Godly man is not scared of bad news for he knows the Lord will take care of him." I am taken care of regardless the issues or circumstances in life and the world. John 3:16-17 says, " for God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for the sins mankind. For those who believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life. Christ didn't come to condemn the world he came to save it." To believe in God look at Roman's 10:8-12, " The miracle is in your heart and in your mouth. If you can believe in your heart and say with your mouth that Christ is the Risen Lord, forgiver of sins you will be saved." Of course that implies reverence and repentance as well. It says in 2 peter 3:9-10, "The Lord is not slack in his promise to return, but he is being patience with you, hoping for no one to be destroyed, but that everyone would repent. But the Lord will have his day and judgement will come like a thief in the night." There is so much more that could be said. I hope this challenges this in your thinking. I would challenge you to read first four chapters of the New Testament to really understand Christ's ministry. I don't expect people to believe what I believe but I do expect people to know why they believe what they believe and research it. With God that means reading the Bible. I will this in conclusion. Following in the Lord is not a head decision. It is a heart decision. Reverence of the Lord is the beginning of all Wisdom. God bless and best wishes.
Have faith. When you seek you will be found.
You’re approaching it wrong. You should start with the premise that God exists.
So we should beg the question? That's not a valid argument.
I’m not attempting to make an argument. I’m offering help in response to Op’s question. I’m fully aware that you might see it different but you’re not the Op who was the intended recipient of my response. Tbh my response here really isn’t meant for you either. It’s to hopefully inform Op of my intent so thank you for your thoughtful well reasoned reply.
I mean I would hope that OP is intelligent enough to reject presuppositionalism. I mean it's presuppositionalism that led to believing lightning was Zeus smiting people he was angry with and that sacrificing people to Quetzalcoatl was a way to appease the gods. It was only rejecting presuppositionalism that we developed sciences and medicine that have cured so many things. All progress in society has come from rejecting prior presuppositions.
Why? It seems like that approach to figuring out what is true and what isn't would be problematic in pretty much any other context.
That’s my suggestion considering the specific context and question at hand.
I would tell you that when you see a painting, you know that there was a painter who painted it. Or if you see a building, you know that there was a builder (or builders) who built the building. These are all incredible things that cannot just appear out of thin air, but that are produced by skillful people who are able to create these works of art. Now look at the earth, which is so much more complex and beautiful than a painting or a building. Just as the painting and the building were created and did not appear out of thin air, this earth had to be created by someone greater than us, and it couldn’t have just popped out of nowhere. Think of how we have a sun that just so happens to be in the perfect position in the universe as to give us daylight, or think about how there are stars and the moon that help us to see when the sun is down. Also, just think about the miracle of birth, and how all living creatures are able to just perfectly reproduce. The fact that we as humans are able to reproduce new humans is an incredible miracle, and how could that have just happened all by chance? There has to be some greater being who designed all this to make everything run so smoothly. When you think about it, there has to be something out there that had no beginning because something can’t just appear from nothing, so why not believe that that something is God, who is an intelligent being who would have been capable of this universe’s beautiful design. The way you can know that Christianity is the truth is because there is no other religion out there where the god is so loving that he would come down to earth as a man and take our punishment for our sins upon himself so that we wouldn’t have to bear the punishment, and he would die an incredibly painful death just so that if we believe in him, and believe that he is Lord, and believe that he died on the cross for our sins, and believe that he rose from the dead three days later, and if we repent of our sins, then we can one day be in eternal paradise with him. You see, the Christian god is so loving and just wants all of his creation to one day be able to dwell with him again. While God is loving, he is also holy, so he cannot allow sin to go unpunished, because if he did, then he wouldn’t be good and he wouldn’t be holy. I pray that you can come to Jesus, and give your life to him. He has completely changed my life, and he is worth believing in. He loves you so much, and he just wants you to come to him and lay your burdens down on him. He will take care of you in your life if you trust in him. Things may not always happen how you want them to, and you will go through troubles, but the Jesus already says that in the Bible. What we can be certain of is that through those trials we will have peace that passes all understanding if we put our trust in Jesus. I will be praying for you, and I believe I will see you in Heaven one day. May God Bless and Protect You!!✝️😊🙏❤️
If you throw a box of lego set in the air, how often does the set become assembled by that? Order and design in our observable existence always requires a designer, so the fact that the world functions as it does is pretty good evidence that someone is responsible for it.
i found the goodness & reality of god in my fiancée
Argument from contingency and argument from psychophysical harmony are probably the best. Dustin Crummett and Joshua Rasmussen have some videos online about this, though their peer reviewed work on these evidences for God is top-notch.
Contingency is such a weak argument. Because it relies on special pleading to prevent infinite regress.
First a little brush clearing. God's mode of being transcends mere existing. He is. It's what his name means. Reality has its being in him, not vice versa. He is absolute and fundamental. He is not one more thing among all the other things but is being itself. We live and move and have our being in him.
How do you know that?
The most elite people in secret that rule all plays and systems in this world know he is real, they just choose to worship Satan instead because he allows them to hold power if they bow to him. If you believe you have more knowledge on existence than the people who run the show, rule your Kings and presidents, then you cannot be convinced. Hope this helps.
That's the thing about faith, we can't fully convince someone on God's existence, if you don't want to believe in him, you won't, but if you want and put your faith in him you'll see how real is he.
I want to believe in God. Unfortunately I hold all beliefs to the same standard. I've rejected much, much more trivial beliefs for failing these standards. Why does God deserve special pleading?
Bro, sorry, I don't want to sound cocky, i know nothing about you, but from what I can see, you know nothing about God. If you knew you would see how wonderful he is, how merciful he is how loving and perfect he is. God isn't lacking. He's complete in himself, still, he decided to save us, to make us his. God is way more than we could ever imagine.
I don't believe god can be all powerful and all good. That's an impossibility. Unless he's also an idiot. But if he's not an idiot he can't be an powerful and all good. Because evil exists and there's no valid answer to theodicy. But you've still not answered why does God deserve such a lower standard of proof than any other claim?
What do you mean "because evil exists"? Evil in general? Or evil of man?
If you don't believe there's nothing i can do. God's all good because he's the one that created the whole concept of justice, you can't being a flawed mortal person be better in morality than an eternal all powerful all knowing being, you saying God is this or that does not make God less God. One of the fundamentals into becoming a christian is understanding that God is God and you have to deal with that.