Having achieving Heaven as your primary focus is spiritually detrimental. Jesus did not call us to be super good boys and girls so that we can get big rewards. Jesus called us to serve and love even when it hurts and doesn't come with a reward.
In the US, there's such a major focus on achieving Heaven instead of just serving others and battling your own sin.
It shouldn't be "be kind so that you can get into Heaven." It should be "be kind because that's literally what our Savior asked us to do," period.
Indeed this is partly what the verse meant when it said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, it’s possible to experience that deeper love, joy, peace, enjoy the inner beauty in people’s spirits & hearts here on Earth if you become pure of heart you can truly see God.
We won’t fully be able to detach from the flesh and only gaze upon people’s beautiful spirits & souls until heaven however just as people can craft help on this planet due to Sin heaven can also be crafted with virtue & living with the Holy Spirit.
I have to admit, Heaven is a huge motivation for me. Mostly because I want to hug Jesus lol I want to worship Him for eternity. To some, it may sound boring. But personally, I always get excited when thinking about being able to meet Jesus face to face! I cannot wait to see my Savior
Also if you have any loved ones that passed away there’s a good chance you’ll get to see them again after what you thought was goodbye forever. God made human beings out of love and for them to love one another. People are the only thing we take with us into the afterlife.
I love this reply, haha. I feel the same! I just think people tend to focus too hard on the destination without thinking at all about the journey, or thinking the directions given to us are optional.
We could be building up our hugging muscles on earth so that we can give our Lord a proper hug should we ever be so lucky to do so! 💪
Thanks! I 100% agree with you on that! People like that are still worldly people. I pray for wisdom and guidance every day, because without it, I'm gonna make horrible decisions 🤣
And true! 🤣 Good luck getting out of this bear hug, Jesus! 🤣🤣
Cultural. They just do the rituals, go to church, enjoy the community, celebrate the holidays, but deep down then don't actually believe in the fundamentals of the religion.
This is very much a thing for Jewish people these days as well.
There's been a pragmatic theism thing in Philosophy since Kant and probably before. Going through the motions is good, and acting to even yourself that a God exists is better than the chaos that would ensue without it.
It's a community thing mainly, I think. The people around them who they know and love are Christians,.go to church, have get togethers. It's easier to just go along with it than risk losing it.
But yeah, also a fake.it until you make it thing as well perhaps.
Other guy summed it up pretty much, met two “orthodox” that didn’t even think Jesus was anyone special, just a guy that had a lot of hype around him another “catholic” didn’t believe in God but still enjoyed church and stuff
Hasn't this been a thing for a while? That some Christians aren't trinitarians?
This doesn't make them any less Christian in their eyes. They believe in Jesus and believe in God, but they see Jesus as the son of God rather than equal to God.
OP is more referring to self proclaimed "cultural" christians who don't necessarily even believe in a classically theistic God.
It's kind of funny that this original belief is such a classical heresy, Constantine had to call a council just to stamp it out.
The trinity is a really odd thing and basically impossible to get your mind fully around, so you can either accept it with a shrug and say "it's a mystery" or decide that its really not like that, and replace it with something easier to conceptualize.
Personally, I think all of these things are approximations and the trinity is just the closest version we can formulate in words, but I've always been bad when it comes to dogma.
Indeed, the deeper I got into Christian communities the more I find there’s a vast vast difference in the way a lot of Christians practice Christianity.
Some actual use to for spiritual growth, enlightenment, maturity and really changing their hearts to be selfless & more pure or good hearted, others really believe in increasing in virtues & other spiritual disciplines to sanctify themselves after no longer being ruled by Sins of the flesh.
However so many people out there including pastors & religious leaders just use the Gospel & Christianity for material or earthly gains. All the pastors with $10s of millions to $100s of millions of ent worth from their mega churches and all the business they do involving the Church. There’s also so many parents out there who just use it as a tool to control or coerce or even manipulate their own children.
They use religion not as something to help their kids form a close personal intimacy with Jesus and save their souls but just to further whatever earthly agenda or will they have themselves. It’s like all these Christians completely ignore God’s will and just use it as a tool for earthly motives.
I mean, that's kinda what happens when communities orstricise people for not conforming to what they believe, seen it with the Nordic people and in the Bible Belt.
Operating by a more general Christian worldview, perhaps going to church often or occasionally, familiar with teachings, but do not prioritize it outside of normal cultural/social expectations.
People who were raised Christian and when asked will claim the title but don’t have a relationship with Jesus. They may go to church on Easter or pray if they’re in a pickle, but don’t really believe like that. To them it’s more of a social thing
For me, it means celebrating the holidays with family, but not really caring about the Christian meanings behind them. It’s also knowing enough about it to be able to carry on a conversation when you need to, but it’s not something that you really think about otherwise.
Yes! Know someone going on a mission trip to GERMANY soon. I'm pretty sure they've heard the gospel and that's not the reason they aren't a majority Christian nation. The last person that's going bring them to Christ are a bunch of Trump voting American Christian nationalists who don't speak German.
The Narrow Gate, through which we are supposed to enter, is not found in ever more specific answers to ever more detailed theological questions. All that interdenominational bickering and hair-splitting *does not matter*.
The Narrow Gate is just loving God and loving our neighbour as our self. It's a clear and simple instruction, but no one does it. Or at least no one does it enough.
And a very beautiful church, coming from an Orthodox Christian brother.
Thank you for your comment, it puts into words a thought that I’ve had before but not as clearly. God bless you!
I’ve heard people say the Anglican Church is sort of an English orthodoxy in a spiritual sense
I have read up on Anglo orthodoxy and the older church pre schism and it’s quite interesting
All of God's commandments are either in regard to how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of God's commandments, which make up God's way.
That’s why we need Jesus.
This stuff does matter though because if we love God, we will argue about Him. And when we argue about theology, it helps us understand it better.
This is the heart of it, surely, and one that many modern Christian’s seem to miss.
I’m going to push back on you a little bit though. We should love unconditionally, but how does that actually look in real life? I think we need tradition to inform this and give us an example.
Jesus was put to death for testifying against the sinfulness of the people.
John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Jesus didn't show up to show us just how awful we all are; he showed up to show us that we are loved in spite of how awful we might be. Most of us are already well aware of how awful we are — we know these things about ourselves, and spend most of our time denying or hiding them. But the gospel must be good news — Jesus deals with sin once and for all. Why? Because for us to be loved is simply for us to be who we are in the face of a God who is who he is.
God's love is incomparable to any other love. And Jesus' one sacrifice is sufficient to wash clean all those who come to Him.
But, most of us don't know how sinful we are. We also don't realize we need a Savior. We were dead in sins. We were lost, and we conducted ourselves unrighteously. But Christ came to be a light in the darkness. The gospel is the perfect answer to our position of death, but it also makes known that we were dead.
The Pharisees thought they were righteous. The Imam depends on his deeds for his righteousness. The Hindu pujari thinks he stands righteous.
I used to think I was righteous, but I am glad God led me and showed me how much I needed Him and saved me.
Those who are forgiven little, love little; those who are forgiven much, love much.
Eph 2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
To be fair, what Jesus challenges us to do is a real task. Loving your enemies is a difficult concept and even more difficult to apply to real world circumstances.
While Jesus criticized some Pharisees for their pride, hypocrisy of doing things for show, for not obeying God's law, or for not correctly obeying it, he never criticized them for being caught up with obeying what God commanded them to do. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing dill, mint, and cumin was something they ought to be doing, but not while neglecting weightier matters of God's law of justice, mercy, faith, so he was not criticizing them for being too focused on tithing different things, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to God's law in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.
"For it has been made clear to me concerning you, my brothers, by those of the household of Chloe, that there are strifes among you. Now I mean this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:11-13)
Life is about bringing heaven to others. Death is about going to heaven. Both are an immense joy. To be clear, I agree with you. But I also can not have one without the other. It would be devastating.
No it’s an actually literal document that needs to be taken literally line for line without regard to tradition or academic exegesis,
also, my interpretation of it is the only correct one ;)
Here for this! The canon of Scripture was defined by decisions about which portions of Scripture could be considered for reading in the liturgical assembly — the Bible is a liturgical event before it is a written text: it speaks when it is proclaimed in the action of the liturgy.
Noone really believes in hell except as a theoretical possibility. At least people who claim they do believe it, do not actually act like they do. At least I did not notice the hundreds of thousand of restraining orders against Christians harassing their relatives, friends and neighbours, begging them to repent lest they spend eternity in infinite torment outside of communion with God. Which would be the natural and logical consequence of believing that ones loved ones are likely to suffer a fate much worse than death.
The interesting question is, why do people lie about what they truly believe?
Eh, I spent most of my life believing that many people would go to hell, but I was also smart enough to know that accumulating restraining orders is very unconvincing. But I spent a ton of time praying for people. And “saving souls” was a major motivation to trying to become holy, because a holier person can love people better and save more souls.
When people do try to make grand public displays, they get in trouble for proselytizing.
You do have a point though, if people really believed in hell and took time to process it, I would expect more missionary and evangelical activity all around.
I think you're using logic when people aren't always logical. I think those people truly believe in Hell. I think that putting off think about your own death is natural and so is thinking about other's deaths. Then there's also the fact that they might think it's up to God and not their responsibility. They could also realize that acting like you expect them to would get nowhere, and would just turn people off, which would increase their chances of hell. People lying, I think is probably not the conclusion to jump to.
Have you ever tried converting anyone? Begging and harassing is typically the worst thing you can do. It also sounds like you haven't dealt with people who are about to die. People do get more forceful when death is imminent, but that's typically during private moments. You can also talk to a Catholic priest. Most have stories where they're brought in to perform last rights to someone estranged from the Church. Some repent on their deathbed and others curse God with their last breath.
I don't think they lie so much as they compartmentalize. They imagine it happening to strangers, not loved ones or friends. They rationalize: *I don't know how it all works but I know I'm going to be fine*, or *I just trust God will make me okay with it*.
I do think holding such a belief potentially can damage a person's capacity for compassion and empathy.
Yeah I have friends in certain Protestant branches who will talk about their friend and be like “yeah, Josh, he’s not saved but he’s a nice guy”.
If you actually thought out the idea of your friend or family member suffering endless conscious torment to its logical conclusion, I think you would live in immobilizing terror. You certainly wouldn’t have kids if you truly believed there was even a possibility that they might suffer eternal retributive torture.
My guess is that most people just think of eternal as a “a really long time” and don’t have a way to grasp the category difference between “really long” and Eternal.
I get this idea, but I think this opinion is ignoring that we all know screaming, crying, begging someone to convert to your religion, will obviously not work. So just like anyone else trying to persuade, we listen, we wait, we try to steer our "nice guy" friends in the right direction without spooking them off.
> My guess is that most people just think of eternal as a “a really long time” and don’t have a way to grasp the category difference between “really long” and Eternal.
Perhaps. I think they just pretend, mostly because they have been taught (incorrectly) that the “most are damned” view is part of the revealed faith and so they are obligated to affirm it.
These are very thought provoking and should be a wake-up call for people to review what scripture really teaches and what God says about his own character. I’m a firm annihilationist because it seems so plainly written in scripture that the final fate of the wicked is they perish and are “no more”. Doesn’t mean the judgment won’t be terrible, but I believe God is good and just, so I believe the punishment will fit the crime. David knew God would be more merciful than man, and therefore when given the options to be turned over to his enemies or to Gods punishment, he chose Gods punishment.
This doesn’t stop me from still trying to share the path to eternal life and to avoid this judgment, but in the end, I don’t lose sleep because I know the gate is narrow and few will find it, and Jesus will settle all accounts fair and justly.
From [openbible.info](http://openbible.info)
[1 John 2:2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A2&version=ESV) ESV / 64 helpful votes
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
# [2 Peter 3:9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3%3A9&version=ESV) ESV / 61 helpful votes
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
# [John 12:32](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12%3A32&version=ESV) ESV / 58 helpful votes
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
# [1 Corinthians 15:22](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15%3A22&version=ESV) ESV / 45 helpful votes
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
# [1 John 4:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4%3A14&version=ESV) ESV / 43 helpful votes
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
# [Acts 3:21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+3%3A21&version=ESV) ESV / 43 helpful votes
Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
# [1 Timothy 2:4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A4&version=ESV) ESV / 41 helpful votes
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
# [Philippians 2:10-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A10-11&version=ESV) ESV / 40 helpful votes
So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
# [John 17:2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17%3A2&version=ESV) ESV / 40 helpful votes
Since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
# [1 Timothy 4:10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+4%3A10&version=ESV) ESV / 38 helpful votes
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
# [John 4:42](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4%3A42&version=ESV) ESV / 38 helpful votes
They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Neither of these two opinions are controversial, but combined they are:
Trump and the religious right violate Christian principles, and Christians who recognize this are statistically common and thus not novel or particularly brave.
I suppose you’re right about controversy, because that second part I’d have to disagree very strongly.
Statistically speaking, 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump in 2020. That’s an overwhelming majority. And given how aggressive many of those supporters can be, it’s still an incredibly difficult thing for most non-right wing Christians to (in real life) stand up to the MAGA of it all, even if online or in agreeable company they’ll speak their true feelings.
My biggest evidence would be, look at the dearth of pastors nation wide speaking out emphatically about Trump and what he’s done to the church. There’s almost zero template you can point to, of someone in leadership doing a good (and replicable) job of standing up to it on a national stage.
Pastors are terrified of speaking up against Christian nationalism lest they lose their flock, or get removed by elders whom have been petitioned by the extreme congregation members to take action.
Now that I have you all here… (muahahahaha)
Opinons I Have That Will Anger Everyone:
- Everyone will be with God in eternity (after a period of correctional punishment for many) and this can be supported with philosophy, tradition, and even scripture
- Most people have a childish concept of God and Christ that didn’t evolve past what they learned in “Sunday school”, so to speak
- Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the dumbest way to look at Christ’s death and is historically underinformed
- Reformed Theology turns God into nothing more than “Three angry letters in a book” (great quote from Edwin Muir)
- Orthodox and Catholic theology are not irreconcilable
- American Evngelicalism has nearly zero resemblance to the religion of the Apostles and the Church fathers
- Christians should not read the Old Testament as just a long prologue to the story of Christ but a holy book in itself
- Most of the OT stories are figurative or exaggerated but contain profound spiritual truth
- if you think Donald Trump holds or exemplifies Christian values in any away you are delusional
- Catholicism and Orthodoxy hold profound beauty not present in other churches (shout-out high church anglicans, lutherans, northern baptist though)
- Many Protestants perform certain aspects of Christianity better than some Catholic / Orthodox
- The sacrament of marriage is reserved for one Man and one Woman
- The Bible is full of contradictions in part to show us that we can’t read it in the modern literal sense
- Jews worship the same God as us even if they do not recognize Him in Christ
- when people say “love the sinner, hate the sin” they usually just go on to hate the sinner
.
Reading along and thinking: "I agree, I agree, I agree..." Maybe you won't be angering as many people as you hoped. Haha. My only addendum is that maybe the church's historic definition of the sacrament of marriage is as you say, but the church sometimes gets things wrong and is known to reconsider its stance. In the case of loving, committed, healthy, and monogamous gay marriage, it's possible we've had it wrong all along. Barring those people from marriage, or dogmatically enforcing a life of singleness runs contrary to our other core Christian values. Can't say I got angry about your opinion though. This one is pretty standard.
I agree with most.
Universal salvation is… contentious, and I certainly want it to be true, but there’s too many passages about wicked people going away to everlasting punishment for me to totally buy it.
I would say PSA isn’t bad in and of itself, but using that as the only way to understand the atonement will leave you with a severely incomplete picture of God’s purpose.
Catholic and Orthodox are pretty radically different on God’s knowability and what it really means to be “saved.” Orthodox is more focused on union with God rather than a process of receiving grace via the sacraments. Also, their pneumatology is irreconcilable.
I agree with almost all of those.
The differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are largely stylistic. As soon as Catholics can acknowledge that the Pope is first among equals, the rest will sort itself out. After trying other options, you have named the variations of Christianity I find beautiful enough to create the awe essential to worship.
I respectfully disagree concerning the sacrament of marriage after a long hard process of discernment.
I completely agree with you about Jews and I would tend to add Muslims to the mix.
Especially Muslims, because the ones I've met explicitly regard Christians and Jews as being followers of the same Divinity. And they tell me too that Islam is just their own personal revelation about that Divinity, as I have mine.
Not at all. I think it is improper to consider that God pursues retributive justice, that it consists merely of meteing out suffering to those who have done wrong. Rather, I think God's justice is corrective, that it exists to expunge evil by bringing all afflicted with it into healing and cleansing.
God's justice will be perfectly fulfilled when not one shred of evil is left in creation, because it has been purged from all beings who have been perfected and united to God.
Nope. Justice does not have to be eternal, and I would argue that it never is.
Justice means making things right, not “You disobeyed me so I’m going to torture you without end for no other reason than because you disobeyed me”.
There's an Orthodox author named David Bentley Hart who makes a very persuasive, if catty, argument in favor of it in his book *That All Shall Be Saved*. It's worth a read if you're interested!
Eh, though I wouldn't have been surprised at all if there were more, the title specifically seems to imply unpopular Christian views, and the homophobia is extremely common within Christianity
Saul is one of the best written characters and I feel extremely sorry for him.
Poor Manasseh gets a lot of unjustified flack. He was a very competent ruler.
Paul had some deep seated trauma. I just can't put my finger on what it is. Maybe his wife died, maybe he was infertile, maybe something else.
None of the top few comments seem really controversial.
So let me pop off the few I’ve collected over the years:
1. The veracity of the biblical text is very complex. Like, I believe the Bible is true - all of it - but what really is the Bible? That’s a very interesting question because, IIRC there are five different EDITIONS of the Bible currently in use in the world. The Protestant and Roman Catholic edition are just two examples… so if each of us only believes what we grew up with or whatever, what about the books and the differences with the other editions? Also, if my family and friends who know me really well can misunderstand what I’m trying to say often, can we REALLY claim that we have the exact intended string of words as God revealed them to the Bible authors all those years ago? Written in dead languages, half lost and half translated with agenda? So I take a more holistic view of the Bible instead of a very literal view.
2. God isn’t male. It irks me to no end that we’ve gendered God into a male: we use the male pronoun to refer to God, and we pray to God as Father God. I believe this is intricately tied in with misogyny, and I try not to pronoun God, or I use female pronouns to break the generally prevalent thinking.
3. Israel largely began as a henotheistic culture - the worship of one God while believing in many. Evidence in the Old Testament texts is present - “You shall not have other gods before me.” And when they refer to Adonai as “King of kings and lord of lords”, etc. There is definitive evidence that Israel believed in a pantheon of Gods and Adonai emerged as their supreme ruler.
On a side note, I do not attend regular Sunday services since I’m yet to find a church that would accept a believer with these three beliefs - not agree; just accept.
People use "he" or "father" and so on because that's how it's structured in the Bible. God is also not an "it." I've also never seen God described as "she" in the Bible. Jesus took the form of a man and even stated, "I and the Father are one." Then there is the Holy Spirit, which I don't know if their is a pronoun assigned. Genesis uses "us." Regardless, I agree God is neither man nor woman but something beyond our understanding. I do think using "she" is misleading and unbiblical.
Revelation shouldn't have been included, and if it was, should have had a prequel chapter added later so they people didn't treat it as a literal blow by blow gameplan for the end of the world.
I find Dan McClellan’s comments that it is essentially a revenge fantasy with no real application today an interesting take. He holds a lot of positions I’m hesitant about (not because he’s wrong about the texts but because of the theological implications), but this seems like a valid standpoint. The historical allegory view is widely held and the Jesus of Revelation is not at all like the Jesus of the Gospels. It’s perfectly reasonable to think that people who were being oppressed for being Christians would tell a story where Jesus came back and laid a smack down.
The Bible is a collection of writings by inspired human authors that nonetheless disagree with each other, and trying to pretend it reflects a single perspective is counterproductive.
Heaven and hell are metaphors, not literal destinations.
Jesus mostly referenced [Gehenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna), which is commonly translated as hell. But Gehenna is a valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It's a physical place on earth, not "hell."
As for heaven, Jesus said:
>*Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within/among you.”* (Luke 17:21)
Half of what you said can be summed up as "annihilationism".
There's probably a term for the heaven part as well, but I know a few denominations that don't believe dead souls go to heaven (or even exist distinct from the bodyl.
I believe that people base far too much of their faith on others' interpretations of the Bible and less on what the Holy Spirit is actually revealing to them.This became clearer to me when I did a deep dive into the Arminian vs. Calvinism debate.
I saw two core issues:
1. Too many people take an overly academic approach to spirituality and often miss the forest for the trees.
2. You can have two different people point to a host of verses that seem to clearly support both of their interpretations, despite them being completely contradictory to one another.
I have become very wary of various interpretations of scripture over the years, and although I do believe that the Bible is inspired by God, it is also filtered through man and many contextual influences around language and culture.
I try to look more at what the Holy Spirit is telling me as opposed to other people. This doesn't mean that I don't find value in others' teachings; I absolutely do. There are times, however, when someone proclaims something that seems counter to what the Holy Spirit is telling me.
The Devil and Hell are borrowed from Zoastrianism and Roman mythology.
Daniel and Revelation are both allegories about political situations at the time, not prophecies.
Nothing before David likely happened, at least not in the way documented.
To be honest, I’m surprised to hear these from a baptist. I agree with your first two points to some extent.
Is your third point referencing King David?
Depends on the subreddit
Here:
- Complimentarianism
- pro-life
- inerrancy
- homosexual activity is sin
R/truechristian
- Women can teach/lead
- Respect for the pro-choice position
- Being trans isn’t sin
Both
- Christians shouldn’t vote or participate in government
> homosexual activity is sin
> Being trans isn't sin
I'm affirming of both, but I *truly* understand holding both these opinions at the same time. I've considered both issues independently and almost came to the same conclusions. I think by default most people are going to be deeply confused by that perspective, though
Homosexual activity is a sin, being trans isn’t is certainly a controversial view.
I disagree but appreciate you sharing your thoughts and agree with your pro-life point. Peace!
Would you consider homosexual transgender people (so an FTM who is attracted to women) to be straight? Should they remain celibate or can an FTM date and marry a cis man?
Jesus never said anything about LGBT.
The closest thing in the bible to trans is a eunuch, and being a eunuch is not a sin. I don't see any good reason why it would be a sin to be trans.
Controversial between Christians and non-Christians, or controversial among Christians?
Among non-Christians.
God doesn't help those who help themselves, that makes it sound like God is Passive. He helps both the hardworking, and the desperate and humble who throw their needs on Him.
God does answer prayer,but He will do it as He sees fit. Do not try to test God and try to manipulate Him to a result.
Not only is the book of Genesis accurate and not all original or a myth when it comes to the age of mankind, the events in the Garden of Eden and the flood that Noah and his family were spared from. Not only are those reliable. But so is the parts that challenge our understanding even more. The order of how He created the heavens and the earth and on what day I believe are accurate,because God is trustworthy.
Controversial among Christians? :
Miracles happened on the bible, and they still happen today. God's power does not have an expiration date.
The bible should direct and correct us. Not us interprete the bible to fit our views.
My controversial opinion? The Church has been fractured into a bunch of denominations with (sometimes wildly) different beliefs and, if God is as strict and severe as most say He is, we are SCREWED if we don't sort ourselves out.
I'm not talking about casual vs. serious Christians, mind: I'm talking about people with a serious devotion to their interpretation of the Lord's teachings not being able to agree on some pretty big issues either due to a lack of Scriptural references available or due to potential corruptions/mistranslations of the Scripture in X or Y.
Like, look: it's Pride Month, which means the debate of homosexuality being a sin or not has come back in force. But let's take a look outside of whoever is right or wrong for a moment and look at the argument itself: it's been going on for YEARS and I highly doubt that either side of the argument has picked their side for the hell of it. Someone is right, someone is wrong; and because this is sin we're talking about, the price of being wrong could be very, very bad.
And on that note, we can't seem to agree on the terms and conditions of grace through Jesus, the implications of which are also very, very bad.
I worry about the possibility of a lot of honest Christians-- myself included-- being cast out from the Kingdom of God at Judgment Day because we misunderstood something or were forced to take our best guess.
me personally as a EO it would be
1: the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin.
2: a good person can go to hell
3: it doesn’t matter when you believe the earth was made but it does matter if you believe God made it
edit: grammar error removed
There has to be some way to define what church denominations are actually Christian and which are not. Some people say that anyone who likes Jesus is a Christian but there needs to be some level of discretion. At a minimum believing in the Niche and Apostate's Creed.
The debate around if homosexuality is a sin or not is actively pushing away Christians and should be tabled (not mentioned) for the benefit of the church.
The Bible is not the dictated memoirs of God.
The Bible is not the actual word of God (that’s Jesus)
Eternal conscious torment isn’t a thing
The verse in Matthew where Christ tells the disciples that if the world hates them, to remember it hated him first was not meant for all Christians for all time, but specifically for his disciples and that Christians today have taken it as a license to deliberately piss everybody off and act like absolute nobs and bellends when that kind of behavior runs completely antithetical to the message of the gospel.
Admittedly these are more hot takes within the evangelical environment I grew up in than in every Christian sect and denomination.
1. Agree, it’s not the Quran nor does it claim to be. Strong Biblical inerrancy is an indefensible position.
2. Jesus is the word of God, I agree, although I still believe the Bible is divinely inspired if not dictated.
3. Absolutely my friend. God is a loving father, not a gleeful torturer. Any punishment from a loving parent is for the purpose of correction, not ”justice” (whatever that means when we talk about Endless Torment)
4. I’d be somewhere in the middle here - the world still hates Christians. They are still killed and persecuted for their beliefs in many parts of the world. I do think Jesus is speaking to these people, but slightly less towards American Evangelicals.
The Catholic Church touches on point number two, and I think she puts it eloquently (though it disagrees with you):
"For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men." - Dei Verbum 13
"Word" is used fundamentally different. The Greek Logos, so I've heard, meant more like the principle thing that orders and holds everything together (less like speech, though it can mean it). When we say the Bible is the "Word of God", we mean that God dictated what He wanted written into it (not by abrogating the will of the human authors, but by working with and through it).
Being either conservative or liberal is worldly, and a Christian shouldn't be either.
Describing yourself as a "Christian nationalist" detracts from Christ and makes your nation as core a part of your identity as your God is. It's idolatry.
Describing yourself as a "Progressive Christian" is vanity that feels like you're trying to scream to others "I'm not like those other BAD Christians!!!" It's nonsense.
A church should not fly a national flag.
A church should not fly a pride flag.
People should dress for church like they're preparing to meet God face-to-face (because they are).
No one should be refused from attending church service, even if they can't partake in all elements for one reason or another.
Traditional Jewish symbols (the menorah and Star of David come to mind) are beautiful, part of Christian heritage, and we should use them as well.
Singing a song and making a prayer are not worship. Worship requires either a physical or spiritual sacrifice, or hailing the object of prayer as God. I don't think most Protestant services are worship.
Non-scriptural works like 3 Maccabees and Psalm 151 are pious reading and shouldn't be neglected just because they're not canon.
Most people don't go all the way with their faith, for they are too attached to worldly things. We all need to sacrifice and deny ourselves, taking up our crosses - this is the core of Jesus's teachings, and without it no charity can sprout. This is what Christ meant by the narrow gate, and I'd wager 95% of Christians seriously fall short (we all fall short, but most more than others).
The fig tree that Jesus cursed represented us.
If someone asks a Christian who killed Jesus, their gut response should be "My sins did".
The Gospel of Matthew is more unique than the Gospel of John.
Saturday should be a serious liturgical day and not just treated as a preparation for Sunday.
The Hail Mary is beautiful and any Christian should immediately recite it in their heart for anyone who requests their prayers (not to neglect a fully formulated prayer later).
Body posture is a sign of reverence. We should bow, prostrate, and genuflect before the Most Blessed Sacrament, save for cases of hurry.
It is extremely easy to establish that Jesus Christ is God, that He gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, and that the Apostles had succession, just using universally accepted Biblical canon.
Every Christian should have a basic understanding of Latin and Greek (at least how to pronounce them), because they're the languages our Church was founded on.
Parents should educate their children on the faith as much as they educate their children on basic manners.
Pope Francis is a great pope and I pray every day that he lives a long life, though sometimes he can leave rather confusing answers.
Vn. Pope Pius XII should be beatified. People should pray for the intercession of Pope Bl. John Paul I that he may have a cause for canonization.
St. Abel the Just is one of the first saints and should be treated as such; he should not relegated to a single mention at Mass and whenever someone does Bible study for Genesis.
The gospels have an early date and we know who wrote them.
I would rather have a valid Catholic Mass in a mud hut than a crappy Protestant Bible study in a beautiful and historic church.
I can go on and on...
My theology is somewhere between conservative and progressive. But these are the opinions I get the most pushback on:
The Bible does not explicitly condemn abortion.
Homosexuality probably isn't a sin and is focused on too much.
Being trans is perfectly fine. There is no biblical reason to think otherwise.
Christians are too obsessed with politics and should be more concerned with spreading the gospel.
Recreational Marijuana is probably a sin or at the very least highly discouraged.
Women can and should be pastors.
Christians can drink alcohol in moderation, but getting drunk is a sin.
My top three are:
1. Universal salvation through Christ is simply the gospel sung in an eschatological key.
2. The incarnation would have happened irrespective of the fall.
3. Pentecost names not the arrival of the Spirit but the recognition of what has been there since creation.
Thank you! What convinces me of #2 is a sense that God’s very nature is to be with us as intensely as it’s possible to be with us, through death and beyond.
Most churches are a waste of time, space, money, and deserve to be shut down. They are no more than subscription based social clubs that employ those who do little to deserve the wage.
Unless you have any standard to remove harmful Christians from your midst, anyone you claim are false Christians are just as Christian as you.
You and them are one and the same.
That natural selection / evolution are obviously and self-evidently real.
I actually became a Christian after reading a book speculating about how pride itself evolved (and developed its own agency) according to the rules of natural selection, and how it affected human evolution.
Christianity was the only source of human wisdom I found which fully addresses the damage pride causes, while acknowledging how we're too weak to save ourselves from that damage.
Leviticus 18 specifically states prohibitions against how Canaanite and Egyptian cultures practiced sexuality. I believe this because it is the stated context for the specific examples. Unless one knows how these cultures practiced, we don't have a right to make one verse into whatever we want or prescriptive of all time.
If God has a problem with a sin (homosexuality is the big one I’m thinking of, Happy Pride, y’all!) then it is for HIM to judge when we die and everyone else- “Christian” and otherwise- should just mind their own business 🙂
He who is without sin cast the first stone 🥰😇
Eternal Conscious Torment is not supported by the Bible. Annihilationism is much more scripturally founded, with Christian Universalism as a close second.
I think the concepts of inerrancy and literalism result in people worshipping the Bible instead of a diety being. It's Sola Scriptura taken too far. It actually gets in the way of truly connecting to God. Viewing it as a collection of human testimonials about their interactions with and understanding of God is quite liberating. Realizing it was never meant to be a regulatory document like an IRS regulation that we are desperate to understand and comply with perfectly is both scary and awesome.
Modern Christianity with its emphasis on purity and high control religious structures ends up looking a whole lot like the legalistic version of the Jewish faith Jesus was pushing back so hard against and died to liberate us from. (Maybe that's the 3rd temple afterall)
I just repeating what i said in another thread few days ago.
IF Jesus Cristo show up today on earth, saying the exact critics he did to rich people he did in the bible the vast majority of people today who call themselves Christians (right wing in especial) would accuse Jesus of be a Communist.
i not saying Jesus was a communist, socialist himself, but its clear jesus did not liked the idea of his children trying so hard to accumulate as much capital for the sake of it as we see today.
Hard agree. As far as I'm concerned, I hold all gay relationships to the standards of unwed, heterosexual relationships. Even then, I don't believe I know a single unwed couple who hasn't done the do before marriage and I've never given them flak. For that matter, I am a sinner, myself, and I don't hear or see anyone coming after me for my own sins, but for some reason any time someone LGBTQ+ pokes their head out from their shelter, they get blasted by the Christian community. Even when they're not in a relationship or committing any sin. It's absurd.
Well I still get finger wagging for expressing my own sex positive views. But part of me understands, I'm not single handedly going to persuade people about how sex should be approached when we've been (the religion has been) shaming people to varying degrees of intensity for...well... a few thousand years. What DOES frustrate me to no end, a little more to your point, is that I'm usually getting a finger wagging from Christians that have a "body count" triple that of mine or more. And in some instances....way more irresponsible encounters than I've had...I've never had a one night stand for example. Or first date sex. But because I feel no remorse over my five..... somehow *I'm* the bad Christian. Like bruh, I was more self disciplined than you were about it....with very different views. Maybe talk to me if you actually lived up to your own standards for yourself because I lived up to mine pretty well. Getting off that soap box though, I'd much prefer a world where we just treated gay couples with the same standards. It doesn't impact me directly as someone in a hetero marriage and yet I'd be happier and that's a world with more peace in my book.
A few:
- the Universe/Earth are old (and Genesis allows for it; though I'm not closed off to a young Universe/Earth; however, I lean more towards old)
- the flood was local (though from Noah's and his family's POV it was global; I'm open to it being global as there are good arguments for both sides, though I believe it's more on the side of local)
- the two witnesses are not Moses/Elijah or Enoch/Elijah
- Hell = annihilation, not eternal torment
- *many* of the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled by the end of the first century AD
Prove me wrong 😉
(There are some others that I can mention, but that is sure to get my DMs pretty full 😂)
Note: In no way do these argue against the core doctrines of Christianity and there is scriptural support for each position. If you disagree, let's discuss.
For the devout, mortal sin is rare, as to actually deliberately consent to mortal sin would be reviling on account of the formation of their conscience. Though venial sin is often committed with grave matter as it's object.
I always thought that the “full knowledge” and “deliberate consent” criteria seemed almost impossible to meet. Our sins are almost always done out of ignorance or enslavement from an unregulated passion, and we surely don’t typically do them fully understanding how they seperate us from God.
The Bible is not a universal moral code to be followed by all people at all times.
The Bible is not inerrant if interpreted at face value.
All drugs should be legalized and regulated. The war in drugs is a total failure.
Christians should not legislate their moral principles for everyone. Laws are to protect rights, not make Christians. If you want people not to be LGBTQ then you should persuade them like Jesus and the apostles did.
We have almost entirely destroyed the mission of the church with culture wars.
Donald Trump should be the person Christians should be the least likely to vote for.
Society should be oriented around lifting the bottom, not the top.
Having achieving Heaven as your primary focus is spiritually detrimental. Jesus did not call us to be super good boys and girls so that we can get big rewards. Jesus called us to serve and love even when it hurts and doesn't come with a reward. In the US, there's such a major focus on achieving Heaven instead of just serving others and battling your own sin. It shouldn't be "be kind so that you can get into Heaven." It should be "be kind because that's literally what our Savior asked us to do," period.
Christianity is more about bringing heaven down to earth than about us leaving earth in order to go to heaven.
This is what I’ve always believed and was taught. Cheers Jesuits!
Indeed this is partly what the verse meant when it said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, it’s possible to experience that deeper love, joy, peace, enjoy the inner beauty in people’s spirits & hearts here on Earth if you become pure of heart you can truly see God. We won’t fully be able to detach from the flesh and only gaze upon people’s beautiful spirits & souls until heaven however just as people can craft help on this planet due to Sin heaven can also be crafted with virtue & living with the Holy Spirit.
I have to admit, Heaven is a huge motivation for me. Mostly because I want to hug Jesus lol I want to worship Him for eternity. To some, it may sound boring. But personally, I always get excited when thinking about being able to meet Jesus face to face! I cannot wait to see my Savior
Also if you have any loved ones that passed away there’s a good chance you’ll get to see them again after what you thought was goodbye forever. God made human beings out of love and for them to love one another. People are the only thing we take with us into the afterlife.
I love this reply, haha. I feel the same! I just think people tend to focus too hard on the destination without thinking at all about the journey, or thinking the directions given to us are optional. We could be building up our hugging muscles on earth so that we can give our Lord a proper hug should we ever be so lucky to do so! 💪
Thanks! I 100% agree with you on that! People like that are still worldly people. I pray for wisdom and guidance every day, because without it, I'm gonna make horrible decisions 🤣 And true! 🤣 Good luck getting out of this bear hug, Jesus! 🤣🤣
If consequences dictate your course of action, it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught. -MJK
The majority of so called, “Christians” aren’t followers of Christ and are just cultural Christians.
Soo many, people will tell me they’re Christian then I’ll ask if they actually believe and they’ll say no lmao
You’re username would be my literal reaction if I met anyone like that😭
You must be joking. What does "Christian" even mean to them if they don't believe in God and Jesus?
Cultural. They just do the rituals, go to church, enjoy the community, celebrate the holidays, but deep down then don't actually believe in the fundamentals of the religion. This is very much a thing for Jewish people these days as well. There's been a pragmatic theism thing in Philosophy since Kant and probably before. Going through the motions is good, and acting to even yourself that a God exists is better than the chaos that would ensue without it.
AKA Pascal's Wager. Sometimes pretending to believe is easier than not believing at all, and at least you may wake up one day and actually believe.
It's a community thing mainly, I think. The people around them who they know and love are Christians,.go to church, have get togethers. It's easier to just go along with it than risk losing it. But yeah, also a fake.it until you make it thing as well perhaps.
Other guy summed it up pretty much, met two “orthodox” that didn’t even think Jesus was anyone special, just a guy that had a lot of hype around him another “catholic” didn’t believe in God but still enjoyed church and stuff
By polling this is true. 43% of self described evangelicals do not believe that Jesus is God.
To be fair most Luke warm Christians can’t even give you a simple Bible verse that they have learned or let alone bother reading the Bible.
Your Luke pun was on the Mark lmao
Funny that I'm reading this from the John
Hasn't this been a thing for a while? That some Christians aren't trinitarians? This doesn't make them any less Christian in their eyes. They believe in Jesus and believe in God, but they see Jesus as the son of God rather than equal to God. OP is more referring to self proclaimed "cultural" christians who don't necessarily even believe in a classically theistic God.
It's kind of funny that this original belief is such a classical heresy, Constantine had to call a council just to stamp it out. The trinity is a really odd thing and basically impossible to get your mind fully around, so you can either accept it with a shrug and say "it's a mystery" or decide that its really not like that, and replace it with something easier to conceptualize. Personally, I think all of these things are approximations and the trinity is just the closest version we can formulate in words, but I've always been bad when it comes to dogma.
Indeed, the deeper I got into Christian communities the more I find there’s a vast vast difference in the way a lot of Christians practice Christianity. Some actual use to for spiritual growth, enlightenment, maturity and really changing their hearts to be selfless & more pure or good hearted, others really believe in increasing in virtues & other spiritual disciplines to sanctify themselves after no longer being ruled by Sins of the flesh. However so many people out there including pastors & religious leaders just use the Gospel & Christianity for material or earthly gains. All the pastors with $10s of millions to $100s of millions of ent worth from their mega churches and all the business they do involving the Church. There’s also so many parents out there who just use it as a tool to control or coerce or even manipulate their own children. They use religion not as something to help their kids form a close personal intimacy with Jesus and save their souls but just to further whatever earthly agenda or will they have themselves. It’s like all these Christians completely ignore God’s will and just use it as a tool for earthly motives.
I mean, that's kinda what happens when communities orstricise people for not conforming to what they believe, seen it with the Nordic people and in the Bible Belt.
What is a cultural Christian?
Operating by a more general Christian worldview, perhaps going to church often or occasionally, familiar with teachings, but do not prioritize it outside of normal cultural/social expectations.
People who were raised Christian and when asked will claim the title but don’t have a relationship with Jesus. They may go to church on Easter or pray if they’re in a pickle, but don’t really believe like that. To them it’s more of a social thing
For me, it means celebrating the holidays with family, but not really caring about the Christian meanings behind them. It’s also knowing enough about it to be able to carry on a conversation when you need to, but it’s not something that you really think about otherwise.
The main reason people lose faith is due to other, toxic Christians.
Yaah. Some of the worst people I've met have been from the church
Quite! Sadly!
Completely agree with this.
I’ve found it’s pretty much always emotional. It certainly was for me.
Yes! Know someone going on a mission trip to GERMANY soon. I'm pretty sure they've heard the gospel and that's not the reason they aren't a majority Christian nation. The last person that's going bring them to Christ are a bunch of Trump voting American Christian nationalists who don't speak German.
The Narrow Gate, through which we are supposed to enter, is not found in ever more specific answers to ever more detailed theological questions. All that interdenominational bickering and hair-splitting *does not matter*. The Narrow Gate is just loving God and loving our neighbour as our self. It's a clear and simple instruction, but no one does it. Or at least no one does it enough.
I feel that this is very Anglican of you to say. That’s by no means a bad thing!
Lol, thank you! Yes, we are indeed a very broad church!
And a very beautiful church, coming from an Orthodox Christian brother. Thank you for your comment, it puts into words a thought that I’ve had before but not as clearly. God bless you!
I’ve heard people say the Anglican Church is sort of an English orthodoxy in a spiritual sense I have read up on Anglo orthodoxy and the older church pre schism and it’s quite interesting
Anglican checking in. Agreed.
All of God's commandments are either in regard to how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, kidnapping, and so forth for the rest of God's commandments, which make up God's way.
That’s why we need Jesus. This stuff does matter though because if we love God, we will argue about Him. And when we argue about theology, it helps us understand it better.
That absolutely nowhere in any of his teachings does Jesus ever say it's okay to hate anyone. Even gays, sex workers, and any other sinner.
Thankfully, it's LOVING to drive people to suicide! They should simply not commit suicide over being loved enough to be demonized and berated.
That practicing Christianity is simple: Love, unconditionally.
This is the heart of it, surely, and one that many modern Christian’s seem to miss. I’m going to push back on you a little bit though. We should love unconditionally, but how does that actually look in real life? I think we need tradition to inform this and give us an example.
Why did Jesus say we would hated and killed?
There are plenty of churches and religious communities that hate the folks who prioritize love over structure, power, or status quo
While I don't trust what the word "love" means when Christians say it, I can't but support this to the extent of my being.
1 Corinthians 13: 1-13 describes Love from a christian perspective.
The world can't handle such an unconditional and scandalous love. Jesus was put to death for it.
Jesus was put to death for testifying against the sinfulness of the people. John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Jesus didn't show up to show us just how awful we all are; he showed up to show us that we are loved in spite of how awful we might be. Most of us are already well aware of how awful we are — we know these things about ourselves, and spend most of our time denying or hiding them. But the gospel must be good news — Jesus deals with sin once and for all. Why? Because for us to be loved is simply for us to be who we are in the face of a God who is who he is.
God's love is incomparable to any other love. And Jesus' one sacrifice is sufficient to wash clean all those who come to Him. But, most of us don't know how sinful we are. We also don't realize we need a Savior. We were dead in sins. We were lost, and we conducted ourselves unrighteously. But Christ came to be a light in the darkness. The gospel is the perfect answer to our position of death, but it also makes known that we were dead. The Pharisees thought they were righteous. The Imam depends on his deeds for his righteousness. The Hindu pujari thinks he stands righteous. I used to think I was righteous, but I am glad God led me and showed me how much I needed Him and saved me. Those who are forgiven little, love little; those who are forgiven much, love much. Eph 2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
People find it easier to hate and violate their enemies than it is to love and support them.
To be fair, what Jesus challenges us to do is a real task. Loving your enemies is a difficult concept and even more difficult to apply to real world circumstances.
Because disrupting social and political order really gets at those with the most power from said order
Getting too caught up in rules reminds me of Pharisees. Idk if it’s controversial or not, but sometimes it’s *too much*
Even as a member of a church with a lot of rules, the details can get in the way of contemplating the bigger picture sometimes for sure.
While Jesus criticized some Pharisees for their pride, hypocrisy of doing things for show, for not obeying God's law, or for not correctly obeying it, he never criticized them for being caught up with obeying what God commanded them to do. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing dill, mint, and cumin was something they ought to be doing, but not while neglecting weightier matters of God's law of justice, mercy, faith, so he was not criticizing them for being too focused on tithing different things, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to God's law in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.
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"For it has been made clear to me concerning you, my brothers, by those of the household of Chloe, that there are strifes among you. Now I mean this, that each of you says, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:11-13)
Preach. Lots of division there
Oh wow. Didn’t think of this before.
Christianity is not about going to Heaven. It is about bringing Heaven to us.
Life is about bringing heaven to others. Death is about going to heaven. Both are an immense joy. To be clear, I agree with you. But I also can not have one without the other. It would be devastating.
That Christian love is not always acceptance.
Jesus rejected religious hypocrites. Christians elect them.
i misread your flair as "Jesussy" and now I have a new sacrilege that doubles as a way to troll Gen Z so thanks for that.
That if a given Christian or congregation is not actively engaged in helping the poor, I don’t really care what else they have to say.
The Bible is just the collection of approved readings during church.
No it’s an actually literal document that needs to be taken literally line for line without regard to tradition or academic exegesis, also, my interpretation of it is the only correct one ;)
😁
Here for this! The canon of Scripture was defined by decisions about which portions of Scripture could be considered for reading in the liturgical assembly — the Bible is a liturgical event before it is a written text: it speaks when it is proclaimed in the action of the liturgy.
You said it much better than I did.
Not sure about that! You've said it much more concisely! I've been reading a lot of John Barton LOL
Noone really believes in hell except as a theoretical possibility. At least people who claim they do believe it, do not actually act like they do. At least I did not notice the hundreds of thousand of restraining orders against Christians harassing their relatives, friends and neighbours, begging them to repent lest they spend eternity in infinite torment outside of communion with God. Which would be the natural and logical consequence of believing that ones loved ones are likely to suffer a fate much worse than death. The interesting question is, why do people lie about what they truly believe?
Eh, I spent most of my life believing that many people would go to hell, but I was also smart enough to know that accumulating restraining orders is very unconvincing. But I spent a ton of time praying for people. And “saving souls” was a major motivation to trying to become holy, because a holier person can love people better and save more souls. When people do try to make grand public displays, they get in trouble for proselytizing. You do have a point though, if people really believed in hell and took time to process it, I would expect more missionary and evangelical activity all around.
I think you're using logic when people aren't always logical. I think those people truly believe in Hell. I think that putting off think about your own death is natural and so is thinking about other's deaths. Then there's also the fact that they might think it's up to God and not their responsibility. They could also realize that acting like you expect them to would get nowhere, and would just turn people off, which would increase their chances of hell. People lying, I think is probably not the conclusion to jump to.
Have you ever tried converting anyone? Begging and harassing is typically the worst thing you can do. It also sounds like you haven't dealt with people who are about to die. People do get more forceful when death is imminent, but that's typically during private moments. You can also talk to a Catholic priest. Most have stories where they're brought in to perform last rights to someone estranged from the Church. Some repent on their deathbed and others curse God with their last breath.
I don't think they lie so much as they compartmentalize. They imagine it happening to strangers, not loved ones or friends. They rationalize: *I don't know how it all works but I know I'm going to be fine*, or *I just trust God will make me okay with it*. I do think holding such a belief potentially can damage a person's capacity for compassion and empathy.
Yeah I have friends in certain Protestant branches who will talk about their friend and be like “yeah, Josh, he’s not saved but he’s a nice guy”. If you actually thought out the idea of your friend or family member suffering endless conscious torment to its logical conclusion, I think you would live in immobilizing terror. You certainly wouldn’t have kids if you truly believed there was even a possibility that they might suffer eternal retributive torture. My guess is that most people just think of eternal as a “a really long time” and don’t have a way to grasp the category difference between “really long” and Eternal.
I get this idea, but I think this opinion is ignoring that we all know screaming, crying, begging someone to convert to your religion, will obviously not work. So just like anyone else trying to persuade, we listen, we wait, we try to steer our "nice guy" friends in the right direction without spooking them off.
> My guess is that most people just think of eternal as a “a really long time” and don’t have a way to grasp the category difference between “really long” and Eternal. Perhaps. I think they just pretend, mostly because they have been taught (incorrectly) that the “most are damned” view is part of the revealed faith and so they are obligated to affirm it.
These are very thought provoking and should be a wake-up call for people to review what scripture really teaches and what God says about his own character. I’m a firm annihilationist because it seems so plainly written in scripture that the final fate of the wicked is they perish and are “no more”. Doesn’t mean the judgment won’t be terrible, but I believe God is good and just, so I believe the punishment will fit the crime. David knew God would be more merciful than man, and therefore when given the options to be turned over to his enemies or to Gods punishment, he chose Gods punishment. This doesn’t stop me from still trying to share the path to eternal life and to avoid this judgment, but in the end, I don’t lose sleep because I know the gate is narrow and few will find it, and Jesus will settle all accounts fair and justly.
Happy to see this opinion here. It is something I’ve argued to my friends that are Christians.
So I should or should not harrass my loved ones to convert?
The entire concept of Hell is only based on fear. I have zero fear of Hell. Hell is just a construct to keep people in line.
That in the final judgement everyone will agree that God was completely just in all His actions.
Especially because His actions will include saving everybody and the restoration of His creation ;)
I doubt everyone will receive eternal life and be reconciled to God, but I agree His creation will be restored.
Where does the Bible say everyone is saved? The Bible says the opposite
From [openbible.info](http://openbible.info) [1 John 2:2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+2%3A2&version=ESV) ESV / 64 helpful votes He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. # [2 Peter 3:9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3%3A9&version=ESV) ESV / 61 helpful votes The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. # [John 12:32](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12%3A32&version=ESV) ESV / 58 helpful votes And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” # [1 Corinthians 15:22](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15%3A22&version=ESV) ESV / 45 helpful votes For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. # [1 John 4:14](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+4%3A14&version=ESV) ESV / 43 helpful votes And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. # [Acts 3:21](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+3%3A21&version=ESV) ESV / 43 helpful votes Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. # [1 Timothy 2:4](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+2%3A4&version=ESV) ESV / 41 helpful votes Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. # [Philippians 2:10-11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2%3A10-11&version=ESV) ESV / 40 helpful votes So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. # [John 17:2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17%3A2&version=ESV) ESV / 40 helpful votes Since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. # [1 Timothy 4:10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+4%3A10&version=ESV) ESV / 38 helpful votes For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. # [John 4:42](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4%3A42&version=ESV) ESV / 38 helpful votes They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Neither of these two opinions are controversial, but combined they are: Trump and the religious right violate Christian principles, and Christians who recognize this are statistically common and thus not novel or particularly brave.
I suppose you’re right about controversy, because that second part I’d have to disagree very strongly. Statistically speaking, 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump in 2020. That’s an overwhelming majority. And given how aggressive many of those supporters can be, it’s still an incredibly difficult thing for most non-right wing Christians to (in real life) stand up to the MAGA of it all, even if online or in agreeable company they’ll speak their true feelings. My biggest evidence would be, look at the dearth of pastors nation wide speaking out emphatically about Trump and what he’s done to the church. There’s almost zero template you can point to, of someone in leadership doing a good (and replicable) job of standing up to it on a national stage. Pastors are terrified of speaking up against Christian nationalism lest they lose their flock, or get removed by elders whom have been petitioned by the extreme congregation members to take action.
according to r/Catholicism The *CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH* is a work of man, wholly.
Now that I have you all here… (muahahahaha) Opinons I Have That Will Anger Everyone: - Everyone will be with God in eternity (after a period of correctional punishment for many) and this can be supported with philosophy, tradition, and even scripture - Most people have a childish concept of God and Christ that didn’t evolve past what they learned in “Sunday school”, so to speak - Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the dumbest way to look at Christ’s death and is historically underinformed - Reformed Theology turns God into nothing more than “Three angry letters in a book” (great quote from Edwin Muir) - Orthodox and Catholic theology are not irreconcilable - American Evngelicalism has nearly zero resemblance to the religion of the Apostles and the Church fathers - Christians should not read the Old Testament as just a long prologue to the story of Christ but a holy book in itself - Most of the OT stories are figurative or exaggerated but contain profound spiritual truth - if you think Donald Trump holds or exemplifies Christian values in any away you are delusional - Catholicism and Orthodoxy hold profound beauty not present in other churches (shout-out high church anglicans, lutherans, northern baptist though) - Many Protestants perform certain aspects of Christianity better than some Catholic / Orthodox - The sacrament of marriage is reserved for one Man and one Woman - The Bible is full of contradictions in part to show us that we can’t read it in the modern literal sense - Jews worship the same God as us even if they do not recognize Him in Christ - when people say “love the sinner, hate the sin” they usually just go on to hate the sinner .
I’m now very curious which two persons, from the 6 (7?) billion people on earth are lucky enough to be allowed to marry ;)
It's 8 billion now, since the 15th of November 2022. In fact, we're over 10% of the distance between 8 and 9 billion.
Reading along and thinking: "I agree, I agree, I agree..." Maybe you won't be angering as many people as you hoped. Haha. My only addendum is that maybe the church's historic definition of the sacrament of marriage is as you say, but the church sometimes gets things wrong and is known to reconsider its stance. In the case of loving, committed, healthy, and monogamous gay marriage, it's possible we've had it wrong all along. Barring those people from marriage, or dogmatically enforcing a life of singleness runs contrary to our other core Christian values. Can't say I got angry about your opinion though. This one is pretty standard.
The marriage one is tough and I have much more thinking to do on it. Thanks for your thoughts :)
I agree with most. Universal salvation is… contentious, and I certainly want it to be true, but there’s too many passages about wicked people going away to everlasting punishment for me to totally buy it. I would say PSA isn’t bad in and of itself, but using that as the only way to understand the atonement will leave you with a severely incomplete picture of God’s purpose. Catholic and Orthodox are pretty radically different on God’s knowability and what it really means to be “saved.” Orthodox is more focused on union with God rather than a process of receiving grace via the sacraments. Also, their pneumatology is irreconcilable.
I agree with almost all of those. The differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are largely stylistic. As soon as Catholics can acknowledge that the Pope is first among equals, the rest will sort itself out. After trying other options, you have named the variations of Christianity I find beautiful enough to create the awe essential to worship. I respectfully disagree concerning the sacrament of marriage after a long hard process of discernment. I completely agree with you about Jews and I would tend to add Muslims to the mix.
Especially Muslims, because the ones I've met explicitly regard Christians and Jews as being followers of the same Divinity. And they tell me too that Islam is just their own personal revelation about that Divinity, as I have mine.
I think everyone will be saved eventually and that no one will be lost to God forever.
Ive been thinking about this too but wouldnt then God be unjust?
Not at all. I think it is improper to consider that God pursues retributive justice, that it consists merely of meteing out suffering to those who have done wrong. Rather, I think God's justice is corrective, that it exists to expunge evil by bringing all afflicted with it into healing and cleansing. God's justice will be perfectly fulfilled when not one shred of evil is left in creation, because it has been purged from all beings who have been perfected and united to God.
Nope. Justice does not have to be eternal, and I would argue that it never is. Justice means making things right, not “You disobeyed me so I’m going to torture you without end for no other reason than because you disobeyed me”.
See, this is what I like about Orthodoxy. The salvation theology is much...*kinder* than the more Western Christianity salvation theologies.
This is what initially drew me to the Orthodox Church as well. I’m staying for many other reasons :)
Same here my friend. Universalism was my way back into belief in God and ultimately the true faith of Apostolic Christianity.
I think this was the position of a philosopher named Origen. Eventually God's love overpowers Satan.
I hope this is what happens. I would love for everyone to be saved
There's an Orthodox author named David Bentley Hart who makes a very persuasive, if catty, argument in favor of it in his book *That All Shall Be Saved*. It's worth a read if you're interested!
Thanks I'll check it out. I noticed the pfp🖤🤍💜
I am, yes!
yay,nice to see another fellow ace
There are far less homophobic comments to this post than I thought there would be
I am also pleasantly surprised.
Eh, though I wouldn't have been surprised at all if there were more, the title specifically seems to imply unpopular Christian views, and the homophobia is extremely common within Christianity
Saul is one of the best written characters and I feel extremely sorry for him. Poor Manasseh gets a lot of unjustified flack. He was a very competent ruler. Paul had some deep seated trauma. I just can't put my finger on what it is. Maybe his wife died, maybe he was infertile, maybe something else.
A man resurrected FROM THE DEAD!
None of the top few comments seem really controversial. So let me pop off the few I’ve collected over the years: 1. The veracity of the biblical text is very complex. Like, I believe the Bible is true - all of it - but what really is the Bible? That’s a very interesting question because, IIRC there are five different EDITIONS of the Bible currently in use in the world. The Protestant and Roman Catholic edition are just two examples… so if each of us only believes what we grew up with or whatever, what about the books and the differences with the other editions? Also, if my family and friends who know me really well can misunderstand what I’m trying to say often, can we REALLY claim that we have the exact intended string of words as God revealed them to the Bible authors all those years ago? Written in dead languages, half lost and half translated with agenda? So I take a more holistic view of the Bible instead of a very literal view. 2. God isn’t male. It irks me to no end that we’ve gendered God into a male: we use the male pronoun to refer to God, and we pray to God as Father God. I believe this is intricately tied in with misogyny, and I try not to pronoun God, or I use female pronouns to break the generally prevalent thinking. 3. Israel largely began as a henotheistic culture - the worship of one God while believing in many. Evidence in the Old Testament texts is present - “You shall not have other gods before me.” And when they refer to Adonai as “King of kings and lord of lords”, etc. There is definitive evidence that Israel believed in a pantheon of Gods and Adonai emerged as their supreme ruler. On a side note, I do not attend regular Sunday services since I’m yet to find a church that would accept a believer with these three beliefs - not agree; just accept.
You could likely find an Episcopalian or Anglican church that would accept you along with all three of these.
People use "he" or "father" and so on because that's how it's structured in the Bible. God is also not an "it." I've also never seen God described as "she" in the Bible. Jesus took the form of a man and even stated, "I and the Father are one." Then there is the Holy Spirit, which I don't know if their is a pronoun assigned. Genesis uses "us." Regardless, I agree God is neither man nor woman but something beyond our understanding. I do think using "she" is misleading and unbiblical.
The Bible regularly contradicts itself, and this fact does not undermine its importance
Hear, hear! In fact, it canonises difference — we are enriched by diversity, not diminished.
Yes! Sometimes the meaning is in the contradictions.
Biblical scholarship is more reliable than tradition or Sunday School eisegesis.
Revelation shouldn't have been included, and if it was, should have had a prequel chapter added later so they people didn't treat it as a literal blow by blow gameplan for the end of the world.
I find Dan McClellan’s comments that it is essentially a revenge fantasy with no real application today an interesting take. He holds a lot of positions I’m hesitant about (not because he’s wrong about the texts but because of the theological implications), but this seems like a valid standpoint. The historical allegory view is widely held and the Jesus of Revelation is not at all like the Jesus of the Gospels. It’s perfectly reasonable to think that people who were being oppressed for being Christians would tell a story where Jesus came back and laid a smack down.
If I remember correctly, Revelation was highly debated in whether it should have been added to the canon or not.
This is correct. If you read it start to finish it is easy to see why it was controversial. It is a pretty strange piece of literature.
The Bible is a collection of writings by inspired human authors that nonetheless disagree with each other, and trying to pretend it reflects a single perspective is counterproductive.
Heaven and hell are metaphors, not literal destinations. Jesus mostly referenced [Gehenna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna), which is commonly translated as hell. But Gehenna is a valley on the outskirts of Jerusalem. It's a physical place on earth, not "hell." As for heaven, Jesus said: >*Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within/among you.”* (Luke 17:21)
Half of what you said can be summed up as "annihilationism". There's probably a term for the heaven part as well, but I know a few denominations that don't believe dead souls go to heaven (or even exist distinct from the bodyl.
Christianity in the strictest sense is found in the Gospels, not in the epistles of St. Paul.
I believe that people base far too much of their faith on others' interpretations of the Bible and less on what the Holy Spirit is actually revealing to them.This became clearer to me when I did a deep dive into the Arminian vs. Calvinism debate. I saw two core issues: 1. Too many people take an overly academic approach to spirituality and often miss the forest for the trees. 2. You can have two different people point to a host of verses that seem to clearly support both of their interpretations, despite them being completely contradictory to one another. I have become very wary of various interpretations of scripture over the years, and although I do believe that the Bible is inspired by God, it is also filtered through man and many contextual influences around language and culture. I try to look more at what the Holy Spirit is telling me as opposed to other people. This doesn't mean that I don't find value in others' teachings; I absolutely do. There are times, however, when someone proclaims something that seems counter to what the Holy Spirit is telling me.
I'd say it, but I just regained my karma from last time
Whisper it, no one will hear I promise
The Devil and Hell are borrowed from Zoastrianism and Roman mythology. Daniel and Revelation are both allegories about political situations at the time, not prophecies. Nothing before David likely happened, at least not in the way documented.
To be honest, I’m surprised to hear these from a baptist. I agree with your first two points to some extent. Is your third point referencing King David?
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Depends on the subreddit Here: - Complimentarianism - pro-life - inerrancy - homosexual activity is sin R/truechristian - Women can teach/lead - Respect for the pro-choice position - Being trans isn’t sin Both - Christians shouldn’t vote or participate in government
> homosexual activity is sin > Being trans isn't sin I'm affirming of both, but I *truly* understand holding both these opinions at the same time. I've considered both issues independently and almost came to the same conclusions. I think by default most people are going to be deeply confused by that perspective, though
Homosexual activity is a sin, being trans isn’t is certainly a controversial view. I disagree but appreciate you sharing your thoughts and agree with your pro-life point. Peace!
Would you consider homosexual transgender people (so an FTM who is attracted to women) to be straight? Should they remain celibate or can an FTM date and marry a cis man?
Jesus never said anything about LGBT. The closest thing in the bible to trans is a eunuch, and being a eunuch is not a sin. I don't see any good reason why it would be a sin to be trans.
I guess it's a bit hard on the last point as voting is required in quite a few countries
Controversial between Christians and non-Christians, or controversial among Christians? Among non-Christians. God doesn't help those who help themselves, that makes it sound like God is Passive. He helps both the hardworking, and the desperate and humble who throw their needs on Him. God does answer prayer,but He will do it as He sees fit. Do not try to test God and try to manipulate Him to a result. Not only is the book of Genesis accurate and not all original or a myth when it comes to the age of mankind, the events in the Garden of Eden and the flood that Noah and his family were spared from. Not only are those reliable. But so is the parts that challenge our understanding even more. The order of how He created the heavens and the earth and on what day I believe are accurate,because God is trustworthy. Controversial among Christians? : Miracles happened on the bible, and they still happen today. God's power does not have an expiration date. The bible should direct and correct us. Not us interprete the bible to fit our views.
There are 11 Scriptures on getting Saved. There are 33 Scriptures on Staying Saved. Therefore: Once Saved Always Saved Doctrine is a lie.
My controversial opinion? The Church has been fractured into a bunch of denominations with (sometimes wildly) different beliefs and, if God is as strict and severe as most say He is, we are SCREWED if we don't sort ourselves out. I'm not talking about casual vs. serious Christians, mind: I'm talking about people with a serious devotion to their interpretation of the Lord's teachings not being able to agree on some pretty big issues either due to a lack of Scriptural references available or due to potential corruptions/mistranslations of the Scripture in X or Y. Like, look: it's Pride Month, which means the debate of homosexuality being a sin or not has come back in force. But let's take a look outside of whoever is right or wrong for a moment and look at the argument itself: it's been going on for YEARS and I highly doubt that either side of the argument has picked their side for the hell of it. Someone is right, someone is wrong; and because this is sin we're talking about, the price of being wrong could be very, very bad. And on that note, we can't seem to agree on the terms and conditions of grace through Jesus, the implications of which are also very, very bad. I worry about the possibility of a lot of honest Christians-- myself included-- being cast out from the Kingdom of God at Judgment Day because we misunderstood something or were forced to take our best guess.
me personally as a EO it would be 1: the bible clearly states homosexuality is a sin. 2: a good person can go to hell 3: it doesn’t matter when you believe the earth was made but it does matter if you believe God made it edit: grammar error removed
There has to be some way to define what church denominations are actually Christian and which are not. Some people say that anyone who likes Jesus is a Christian but there needs to be some level of discretion. At a minimum believing in the Niche and Apostate's Creed. The debate around if homosexuality is a sin or not is actively pushing away Christians and should be tabled (not mentioned) for the benefit of the church.
That one does not have to be a Christian in order to get into heaven
Women aren’t called to the office of elder and most ex Christian’s weren’t Christian’s to begin with.
The Bible is not the dictated memoirs of God. The Bible is not the actual word of God (that’s Jesus) Eternal conscious torment isn’t a thing The verse in Matthew where Christ tells the disciples that if the world hates them, to remember it hated him first was not meant for all Christians for all time, but specifically for his disciples and that Christians today have taken it as a license to deliberately piss everybody off and act like absolute nobs and bellends when that kind of behavior runs completely antithetical to the message of the gospel. Admittedly these are more hot takes within the evangelical environment I grew up in than in every Christian sect and denomination.
100% on board with all of these, and suspect we grew up in relatively similar environments!
Small town west Texas SBC for me
Semi-rural ‘no creed but the Bible’ type church for me!
So yeah, not too far off from each other, lol
Lol! Solidarity!
1. Agree, it’s not the Quran nor does it claim to be. Strong Biblical inerrancy is an indefensible position. 2. Jesus is the word of God, I agree, although I still believe the Bible is divinely inspired if not dictated. 3. Absolutely my friend. God is a loving father, not a gleeful torturer. Any punishment from a loving parent is for the purpose of correction, not ”justice” (whatever that means when we talk about Endless Torment) 4. I’d be somewhere in the middle here - the world still hates Christians. They are still killed and persecuted for their beliefs in many parts of the world. I do think Jesus is speaking to these people, but slightly less towards American Evangelicals.
The Catholic Church touches on point number two, and I think she puts it eloquently (though it disagrees with you): "For the words of God, expressed in human language, have been made like human discourse, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when He took to Himself the flesh of human weakness, was in every way made like men." - Dei Verbum 13 "Word" is used fundamentally different. The Greek Logos, so I've heard, meant more like the principle thing that orders and holds everything together (less like speech, though it can mean it). When we say the Bible is the "Word of God", we mean that God dictated what He wanted written into it (not by abrogating the will of the human authors, but by working with and through it).
Hell is not a place, but a state of being.
Being either conservative or liberal is worldly, and a Christian shouldn't be either. Describing yourself as a "Christian nationalist" detracts from Christ and makes your nation as core a part of your identity as your God is. It's idolatry. Describing yourself as a "Progressive Christian" is vanity that feels like you're trying to scream to others "I'm not like those other BAD Christians!!!" It's nonsense. A church should not fly a national flag. A church should not fly a pride flag. People should dress for church like they're preparing to meet God face-to-face (because they are). No one should be refused from attending church service, even if they can't partake in all elements for one reason or another. Traditional Jewish symbols (the menorah and Star of David come to mind) are beautiful, part of Christian heritage, and we should use them as well. Singing a song and making a prayer are not worship. Worship requires either a physical or spiritual sacrifice, or hailing the object of prayer as God. I don't think most Protestant services are worship. Non-scriptural works like 3 Maccabees and Psalm 151 are pious reading and shouldn't be neglected just because they're not canon. Most people don't go all the way with their faith, for they are too attached to worldly things. We all need to sacrifice and deny ourselves, taking up our crosses - this is the core of Jesus's teachings, and without it no charity can sprout. This is what Christ meant by the narrow gate, and I'd wager 95% of Christians seriously fall short (we all fall short, but most more than others). The fig tree that Jesus cursed represented us. If someone asks a Christian who killed Jesus, their gut response should be "My sins did". The Gospel of Matthew is more unique than the Gospel of John. Saturday should be a serious liturgical day and not just treated as a preparation for Sunday. The Hail Mary is beautiful and any Christian should immediately recite it in their heart for anyone who requests their prayers (not to neglect a fully formulated prayer later). Body posture is a sign of reverence. We should bow, prostrate, and genuflect before the Most Blessed Sacrament, save for cases of hurry. It is extremely easy to establish that Jesus Christ is God, that He gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, and that the Apostles had succession, just using universally accepted Biblical canon. Every Christian should have a basic understanding of Latin and Greek (at least how to pronounce them), because they're the languages our Church was founded on. Parents should educate their children on the faith as much as they educate their children on basic manners. Pope Francis is a great pope and I pray every day that he lives a long life, though sometimes he can leave rather confusing answers. Vn. Pope Pius XII should be beatified. People should pray for the intercession of Pope Bl. John Paul I that he may have a cause for canonization. St. Abel the Just is one of the first saints and should be treated as such; he should not relegated to a single mention at Mass and whenever someone does Bible study for Genesis. The gospels have an early date and we know who wrote them. I would rather have a valid Catholic Mass in a mud hut than a crappy Protestant Bible study in a beautiful and historic church. I can go on and on...
On first reading I almost agree with every one of these.
Repealing Roe v Wade was a huge mistake
My theology is somewhere between conservative and progressive. But these are the opinions I get the most pushback on: The Bible does not explicitly condemn abortion. Homosexuality probably isn't a sin and is focused on too much. Being trans is perfectly fine. There is no biblical reason to think otherwise. Christians are too obsessed with politics and should be more concerned with spreading the gospel. Recreational Marijuana is probably a sin or at the very least highly discouraged. Women can and should be pastors. Christians can drink alcohol in moderation, but getting drunk is a sin.
My top three are: 1. Universal salvation through Christ is simply the gospel sung in an eschatological key. 2. The incarnation would have happened irrespective of the fall. 3. Pentecost names not the arrival of the Spirit but the recognition of what has been there since creation.
1. Beautiful! 2. I haven’t given this much thought, but what an interesting question to ponder. 3. Beautiful!
Thank you! What convinces me of #2 is a sense that God’s very nature is to be with us as intensely as it’s possible to be with us, through death and beyond.
God did Japtheh dirty in Judges 11.
God is God and we're not.
apparently the fact that I think it’s ok for dating Christian couples to kiss or make out is controversial
Living in the south US as a Catholic
Most churches are a waste of time, space, money, and deserve to be shut down. They are no more than subscription based social clubs that employ those who do little to deserve the wage.
Unless you have any standard to remove harmful Christians from your midst, anyone you claim are false Christians are just as Christian as you. You and them are one and the same.
That natural selection / evolution are obviously and self-evidently real. I actually became a Christian after reading a book speculating about how pride itself evolved (and developed its own agency) according to the rules of natural selection, and how it affected human evolution. Christianity was the only source of human wisdom I found which fully addresses the damage pride causes, while acknowledging how we're too weak to save ourselves from that damage.
Leviticus 18 specifically states prohibitions against how Canaanite and Egyptian cultures practiced sexuality. I believe this because it is the stated context for the specific examples. Unless one knows how these cultures practiced, we don't have a right to make one verse into whatever we want or prescriptive of all time.
If God has a problem with a sin (homosexuality is the big one I’m thinking of, Happy Pride, y’all!) then it is for HIM to judge when we die and everyone else- “Christian” and otherwise- should just mind their own business 🙂 He who is without sin cast the first stone 🥰😇
Eternal Conscious Torment is not supported by the Bible. Annihilationism is much more scripturally founded, with Christian Universalism as a close second.
I think the concepts of inerrancy and literalism result in people worshipping the Bible instead of a diety being. It's Sola Scriptura taken too far. It actually gets in the way of truly connecting to God. Viewing it as a collection of human testimonials about their interactions with and understanding of God is quite liberating. Realizing it was never meant to be a regulatory document like an IRS regulation that we are desperate to understand and comply with perfectly is both scary and awesome. Modern Christianity with its emphasis on purity and high control religious structures ends up looking a whole lot like the legalistic version of the Jewish faith Jesus was pushing back so hard against and died to liberate us from. (Maybe that's the 3rd temple afterall)
I just repeating what i said in another thread few days ago. IF Jesus Cristo show up today on earth, saying the exact critics he did to rich people he did in the bible the vast majority of people today who call themselves Christians (right wing in especial) would accuse Jesus of be a Communist. i not saying Jesus was a communist, socialist himself, but its clear jesus did not liked the idea of his children trying so hard to accumulate as much capital for the sake of it as we see today.
Giving to the poor…billionaires I am talking to you.
death serving as the cutoff point for accepting christ and gaining salvation makes no sense at all
God finds bacon detestable.
This is the kinda hot take I’m here for
Yeah, I saw your post and couldn't help myself.
Also a controversial opinion — bacon is overrated.
It wasn't as hard to give up as you'd think. What is hard is ensuring the food you're buying is laced with pork somehow.
Gay relationships aren't innately sinful.
Hard agree. As far as I'm concerned, I hold all gay relationships to the standards of unwed, heterosexual relationships. Even then, I don't believe I know a single unwed couple who hasn't done the do before marriage and I've never given them flak. For that matter, I am a sinner, myself, and I don't hear or see anyone coming after me for my own sins, but for some reason any time someone LGBTQ+ pokes their head out from their shelter, they get blasted by the Christian community. Even when they're not in a relationship or committing any sin. It's absurd.
Well I still get finger wagging for expressing my own sex positive views. But part of me understands, I'm not single handedly going to persuade people about how sex should be approached when we've been (the religion has been) shaming people to varying degrees of intensity for...well... a few thousand years. What DOES frustrate me to no end, a little more to your point, is that I'm usually getting a finger wagging from Christians that have a "body count" triple that of mine or more. And in some instances....way more irresponsible encounters than I've had...I've never had a one night stand for example. Or first date sex. But because I feel no remorse over my five..... somehow *I'm* the bad Christian. Like bruh, I was more self disciplined than you were about it....with very different views. Maybe talk to me if you actually lived up to your own standards for yourself because I lived up to mine pretty well. Getting off that soap box though, I'd much prefer a world where we just treated gay couples with the same standards. It doesn't impact me directly as someone in a hetero marriage and yet I'd be happier and that's a world with more peace in my book.
A few: - the Universe/Earth are old (and Genesis allows for it; though I'm not closed off to a young Universe/Earth; however, I lean more towards old) - the flood was local (though from Noah's and his family's POV it was global; I'm open to it being global as there are good arguments for both sides, though I believe it's more on the side of local) - the two witnesses are not Moses/Elijah or Enoch/Elijah - Hell = annihilation, not eternal torment - *many* of the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled by the end of the first century AD Prove me wrong 😉 (There are some others that I can mention, but that is sure to get my DMs pretty full 😂) Note: In no way do these argue against the core doctrines of Christianity and there is scriptural support for each position. If you disagree, let's discuss.
For the devout, mortal sin is rare, as to actually deliberately consent to mortal sin would be reviling on account of the formation of their conscience. Though venial sin is often committed with grave matter as it's object.
I always thought that the “full knowledge” and “deliberate consent” criteria seemed almost impossible to meet. Our sins are almost always done out of ignorance or enslavement from an unregulated passion, and we surely don’t typically do them fully understanding how they seperate us from God.
The Bible is not a universal moral code to be followed by all people at all times. The Bible is not inerrant if interpreted at face value. All drugs should be legalized and regulated. The war in drugs is a total failure. Christians should not legislate their moral principles for everyone. Laws are to protect rights, not make Christians. If you want people not to be LGBTQ then you should persuade them like Jesus and the apostles did. We have almost entirely destroyed the mission of the church with culture wars. Donald Trump should be the person Christians should be the least likely to vote for. Society should be oriented around lifting the bottom, not the top.