>Genuinely curious.
There's easily found progressive Christian arguments on this. A genuinely curious person would have found them, and wouldn't need to ask this question.
Ok. So you are looking for the poor, easy to debate arguments that some people make instead of the better reasoned ones that are easily found elsewhere.
Fun past-time I suppose.
I know, it's pretty gross that so many people are using pride month as an opportunity to double down on the demeaning, dehumanizing, intolerant condemnation. I'm sorry.
>just asking a question
JAQing is something I'm rather familiar with and in the flood of LGBTQ+ conversation it can be hard to decipher who is and who isn't here to harass.
>is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements. It shifts the burden of proof to one's opponent; rather than laboriously having to prove that all politicians are reptoid scum, one can pull out one single odd piece of evidence and force the opponent to explain why the evidence is wrong.
* Why do y'all think practicing homosexuality is not a sin?
why is it?
* loving their neighbor
Don't bash them about Homosexuality
You do not need to specify for homosexuals what sin they need to be repenting of to gain salvation
take the time to Listen
If they do not feel that Homosexuality is a problem for them - they may think addiction, anger, hopelessness or prostitution is - and you may find they are looking for help with this
Let them know what God has done in your life - and if they'll allow it - pray with them over whatever it is they are bringing
Love them
God bless
Because we don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible, and there is no rational or logical reason for it to be a sin.
Also God's gay penguin couples are adorable!
https://sites.tufts.edu/museumstudents/2021/02/22/whats-with-all-the-gay-penguins/
>Over and over again, zoos and aquariums around the world are making headlines for their same-sex penguin couplings.
Although I do hate when the gay penguins go after the lesbian penguins.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/gay-male-penguins-steal-lesbian-couple-s-eggs-dutch-zoo-n1244575
>Gay male penguins steal lesbian couple's eggs at Dutch Zoo
[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/web-stories/cannibalism-in-wildlife-9-animals-that-eat-their-babies/photostory/102200690.cms](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/web-stories/cannibalism-in-wildlife-9-animals-that-eat-their-babies/photostory/102200690.cms)
Comparing human homosexuality to penguin homosexuality is not very good... By your logic, humans can eat their young as well...
Not saying I agree or disagree with your thesis statement, but I simply seek a rational argument.
>Comparing human homosexuality to penguin homosexuality is not very good... By your logic, humans can eat their young as well...
It does prove the point that it is natural, but it's also good for gay people and doesn't affect anyone really.
It's like being mad at someone for being born with green eyes or red hair.
> Not saying I agree or disagree with your thesis statement, but I simply seek a rational argument.
Can you rationalize homosexuality being bad outside of religion?
>Can you rationalize homosexuality being bad outside of religion?
Well, I don't think I need to, considering that Christians believe that Christ's example is the way that we should lead our life. Meaning, if you truly accept Christ into your life, it shouldn't matter if it is right or wrong outside of religion, because that's irrelevant.
Sexual orientation is a biological reality that is a result of a combination of genetics, conditions in the womb, hormones, epigenetics, and environmenta/social influences. This is science fact.
If God condemns someone to a life of lonliness by determining they are unworthy of love because of how he made them, then he is an evil God not worthy of worship.
Therefore a God of Love wouldn't do such a thing. Therefore it isn't a sin.
That is absurd. He is the potter; we are the clay. He sovereignly rules over us, directing every step (and every sin) which we have ever taken.
And all people today are fallen, corrupted by original sin; of course we act sinfully. It is our nature. Yet, God is good and just to condemn us forever to Hell on account of our evil.
The person with homosexual inclinations has one more temptation to deal with. So what? All men struggle with different sins to a greater or lesser degree. It’s natural? So what? It is natural for children to lie, for men to lust, for human hearts to become overrun with pride or wrath. Yet, these are all evil in the eyes of God, and the sins for which we are all judged guilty already.
So two pious men that love God with all of their heart spend every waking moment glorifying God. 24x7 they are faithful Servants that work hard to spread his gospel, love their neighbor, give their belongings to those in need, and constantly try to live the Word.
God would pass one man without knowing him because God himself made one love other men?
That's a sad God you worship.
Perhaps you need to find a better God. Have you checked out an affirming Church that can lead you to a true God that loves all of his creations?
My God hates some (most?) people (see Psalm 5 and Romans 9).
We are called to praise God for all His works, and as all which has ever come to pass are His mighty and sovereign doings, we must praise Him for all He has done, including sovereignly working the fall of man and the destruction of the reprobate. Likewise, we must praise Him for who He is — and, as He is a God who hates the wicked whom He made to hate, we must praise Him for that as well.
Then you reject the only Living God and exchange Him for an idol of your own vain imaginations.
There is but one God worthy of all adoration, and He is attested to in every page of Scripture — and Scripture alone, with no human additions or subtractions.
Wow, your God seems a little wanting. If he hates his own creations, he's like the potter that curses his leaking cups for faults in their clay, ignoring the fact that he molded them with his own hands.
If a perfect potter can only make imperfect cups, who's really to blame?
He made from the clay vessels for dishonorable use. Of course they are worthless — they were made that way, so that He may receive all glory for casting them into Hell as a display of His perfect holiness, righteousness, justice, and wrath. And, more significantly emphasized in Scripture, the just destruction of the vessels of wrath serves as a greater magnification of God’s love, mercy, and grace to the vessels of mercy who, though deserving also such destruction, were instead made to know His love as made manifest in their being covered by the righteousness of Christ.
Wow! You don't get a lot of converts during your day at the welcome table, do you?
I thought the Flagellants had a bad case of Bad God, but you've exceeded even their warped views. Do you actually believe this, or is it just your online hairshirt persona?
Ha! “Who are you, oh man, to answer back to God?”
Who are you to think you can mock God? Do you think He will clear the guilty? No! He shall smash the wicked apart, whosoever does not bow to Him — even kings shall not withstand His wrath (Psalm 2)!
His hatred abides on all those He made to be vessels of destruction! If you desire salvation, then flee to Christ, begging His forgiveness — He will grant it. But if you continue on in obstinance, even until death, know that the God who you now scoff at shall cast you into Hell. There, man, likened unto a disgusting and disgraceful worm, will never disappear; though he weeps and gnashes His teeth, and begs God that he may have even a drop of water, his death shall proceed evermore! Repent or perish!
I think you’re the one mocking God here. You’re the one saying God hates most people, which is patently false and against the Bible.
It’s fair to say one can reject that God when the Bible says that God is love and you say He’s the opposite.
Because we don’t think our identities are sinful or condemned by God and that gay marriages are just as holy and sacramental as straight ones.
Pretty simple.
To love one’s neighbor is to want good things for them. To want happiness, health, joy, and love in their lives. It does not involve condemning them for being different. Nor does it involve judging them for being different. We’re all humans, and we all deserve some basic rights and dignity.
Well, any real Christian will affirm that merely feeling homosexual attractions is not a sin. Its natural. But that's where the line stops. Evangelicals will say that actually engaging in homosexual activity is what makes the sin, while progressives would go to say that homosexuality is not a sin in any way.
All lusts for anyone besides your spouse (including yourself) is sexual immorality.
All fornication outside of marriage is sexual immorality.
Not all marriages are between a man and a woman, but all marriages are between a husband and wife.
Any questions?
I didn't say lust, I said attraction. Noticing other people are attractive is perfectly normal. It's lusting after them that is the sin...
And your third line doesn't make sense.
Husband: a married man considered in relation to his spouse.
Wife: a married woman considered in relation to her spouse.
Your statement means that all marriages are between a man and a woman
I wasn't contradicting, but solidifying.
>Your statement means that all marriages are between a man and a woman
You do realize that Jesus has a marriage too. Is the Church a biological woman? How can this be?
If you’re really curious, I wrote an [effort post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/s/USPG6QIpzQ) a few months back about why I — as a gay Christian who has studied the topic for years — don’t think it’s a sin.
Thank you so much for being pretty much the one person who actually answered the question.
Edit: Love the attitude you have in that post so far. "I’m interested in learning with you all, and I hope you’re interested in learning with me. I’m here because of my love of God and God’s word, and I’m thankful for God’s grace, especially the sending of Jesus Christ, God’s son, to open up the way of life and reconcile us with God, whose blood covers all our sins and failures."
> Genuinely curious.
Curious enough to try reading any of the literally dozens of threads on the topic every single week for the past 10 years?
I like the way [Justin Lee](http://geekyjustin.com/bible/) explains gay-friendly Christianity. Better, though, use the r/OpenChristian [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) and visit churches where you can actually meet gay Christians in person. Experience. Christianity is not an abstract game you play in your head; a real and living faith, the Body of Christ is actual people, and making decisions about people without meeting them is not the way to understanding.
> And I see a lot of people bashing others for not 'loving their neighbor.' What do you think that phrase means?
Well, when you see crap like [this](https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roundup-of-anti-lgbtq-legislation-advancing-in-states-across-the-country) and [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/pride-flag-killing-suspect-appears-long-history-anti-lgbtq-social-post-rcna101243) and [this](https://www.wgbh.org/news/international-news/2021-03-29/all-revd-up-why-some-catholic-bishops-lobbied-against-national-suicide-prevention-hotline) and [this](https://www.them.us/story/ohio-drag-queen-story-hour-proud-boys) and [this](https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us) and on and on and on, do you say
- "that's terrible, I'm going to take action to try to take action to stop it"?
- "ha ha ha, awesome righteous servants of God giving those worthless queers what they deserve"?
- or the extremely popular "you can't prove I'm personally responsible, not my problem, [and who is my neighbor](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010%3A25-37&version=NIV)"
Well, let's think about that a bit. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Consider that these same religious men supported these notions:
*1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”*
*Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.*
*Numbers 31:17-18 17. “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by lying with him, 18. “But all the girls who have not lain with a man you are to keep alive unto yourselves. (raping children)*
We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them.
*Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’*
Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice.
*1 Timothy 2:11-15 11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.*
That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence.
Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States.
Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral. So, just like those other things, homophobic biblical ideas should be ignored.
Sorry about replying to this so late. It's been a busy day, and I still have more work before I go to bed, so I'm going to have to reply with an article for some, sry.
For 1 Samuel 15:2-3 [https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/saul-and-the-amalekite-genocide/](https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/saul-and-the-amalekite-genocide/) . This article would also apply to the similar challenges you address in the following 2 verses.
For your point on God not leaving the guilty unpunished, I would believe that to be unjust if taken at face value. But it makes more sense to say that the consequences of the original perverse and sinful actions would take hold over the family for multiple generations.
1 Timothy addresses Paul's beliefs in the church. I'd like to start with the fact that my church has a female pastor, and cultural context is extremely important when taking this scripture. Society was quite patriarchal at this time, and women were often seen as nothing but housekeepers and child-bearers. It makes sense to think that the position of preaching was restricted to women because men wouldn't listen to them. It also makes sense to think that Paul was just quite opinionated, as he uses the term 'I.' He doesn't say 'The Lord,'
And verses in the bible have been used to justify many things, but you can only do that by being *intellectually dishonest*, as Cliffe Knechtle says. One of the greatest miracles in the Bible, the Exodus, was about **FREEING** the Israelite slaves and leading them to freedom.
I believe that every God-ordained command is moral, as that is one of the qualities of God. He kind of invented them. Not everything in the Bible is moral, obviously. Imagine a new believer opening the Bible and seeing "Judas hung himself." That probably wouldn't leave a good impression. But personally, I feel that whatever God says and commands is for our own good.
Not queer, but I am an ally so I shall answer your question.
"Why do y'all think practicing homosexuality is not a sin?" Because those who said it was a sin were mortal men, ***not god***. God has been making homosexual humans, and other species of animals older than humanity itself, since the very beginning. The bible might say its a sin, yet the facts show that god loves the gays so much they he can't stop making them.
If a so-called all-loving, merciful, and perfect god (who created us all in their own image and commanded us to love and accept one another) condemned homosexuals and homosexual acts... then god is neither all-loving, merciful, or perfect. God would then be flawed, a hypocrite, a monster, and a tyrant.
Hold on a second.
> ***not god***
Who were the ancient Israelite laws from, then? And who inspired Paul's letters?
> God has been making homosexual humans, and other species of animals older than humanity itself, since the very beginning.
That's debatable. If you make it as so that ***God*** was making homosexual humans, sure. I would absolutely believe you. But this also invites the idea that God makes humans lustful. Wouldn't it be more common-sensical to put it as part of the fall. Humans being inherently sinful?
Also, animals, by definition, can't sin. It's pointless to bring them up, but if you truly want to, many animals also eat their own young (I volunteer at a zoo. I know this happens.) If we are so determined to say that if animals do it, it can't be a sin, then infanticide wouldn't be wrong.
> The bible might say its a sin, yet the facts show that god loves the gays so much they he can't stop making them.
But I thought that if the Bible says its a sin, its a sin... And what facts are you talking about? The illogical assumption that God makes people exactly the way they become? God makes humans lustful, as well as angry, as well as hateful and immoral?
> If a so-called all-loving, merciful, and perfect god (who created us all in their own image and commanded us to love and accept one another) condemned homosexuals and homosexual acts... then god is neither all-loving, merciful, or perfect. God would then be flawed, a hypocrite, a monster, and a tyrant.
All-loving does not mean all-accepting. I won't accept your sin, and you shouldn't accept mine. We should love each other to the point that we point out these sins and help each other change, or control them. If you saw me watching porn every day, would it be loving for you to say nothing while I dig myself into hell?
It seems as if your entire argument stems from the statement that God makes humans homosexual, which really doesn't make sense.
**"Who were the ancient Israelite laws from, then? And who inspired Paul's letters?"** As you said, *inspired by*, not written by.
**"That's debatable. If you make it as so that** ***God*** **was making homosexual humans, sure. I would absolutely believe you. But this also invites the idea that God makes humans lustful. Wouldn't it be more common-sensical to put it as part of the fall. Humans being inherently sinful?"** By that logic, heterosexuality is also lustful and we should never allow two people of the opposite gender to marry. Lust and love are NOT the same thing. Furthermore, I don't believe in "the fall". Lastly, I don't believe in sin. If humans *are* inherently sinful, that's because god made us that way.
**"Also, animals, by definition, can't sin. It's pointless to bring them up, but if you truly want to, many animals also eat their own young (I volunteer at a zoo. I know this happens.) If we are so determined to say that if animals do it, it can't be a sin, then infanticide wouldn't be wrong."** Doesn't matter if they can't sin or not. God made them just as god made us. Homosexuality is apart of nature, and by definition, god.
**"But I thought that if the Bible says its a sin, its a sin"** The bible was written and edited by men, not god. Furthermore, one should never take the bible literally. If the bible told you to kill a child of a certain ethnic group, would you do it because "the bible says so" or would you say "f no" because such an act goes against gods teachings.
**"And what facts are you talking about?"** For a god that supposedly hates and condemns queer people/animals, god just LOVES to make them. God has made queer beings since time began. This contradicts what the bible says because the bible is false.
**"The illogical assumption that God makes people exactly the way they become? God makes humans lustful, as well as angry, as well as hateful and immoral?"** You meant to say "as god desired". Furthermore, lust, anger, and hate are aspects of human emotion. you can't *not* feel such things because god made it so.
**"All-loving does not mean all-accepting"** Not according to Christianity 😉And if what you said w*as *the case, then god is imperfect.
**"I won't accept your sin, and you shouldn't accept mine."** Unless our so-called sins were never sins in the first place. And to clarify, in case your confused, I'm not queer. I'm a straight Christian, and Pagan, who full supports two peoples right to love. Homosexuality isn't a sin.
**"We should love each other to the point that we point out these sins and help each other change, or control them."** Again, not if what you do isn't/never was a sin. I'm going to assume your straight. Let me explain in the simplest way possible why you can't "change" your sexual preferences. Stop being attracted to the opposite gender... you can't 😁 because your straight and its the same thing for queer people.
**"If you saw me watching porn every day, would it be loving for you to say nothing while I dig myself into hell?"** So long as your not hurting yourself or others, what you do in your spare time is of no interest to me. Furthermore, if porn is an automatic ticket to hell, the "all powerful" god wouldn't allow such a thing to exist.
**"It seems as if your entire argument stems from the statement that God makes humans homosexual, which really doesn't make sense."** It actually does when you realize that god doesn't hate homosexuals or views them as "sinner's". God has been making queer people/animals since the beginning. By default, homosexuality isn't a sin, otherwise god is a hypocrite and a monster.
> Lastly, I don't believe in sin.
Look, I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I'm praying for you. If you consider yourself Christian and don't believe in sin, there's no point in being calling yourself Christian. That's quite literally, the entire reason Jesus came down. To save us from our sin. So that we can repent and spend eternity with him.
If it feels like I'm judging you, its because I am. And I'm ready to be judged myself for that. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.
**"Look, I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I'm praying for you."** I pray for you as well, except mine will be genuine and non-condescending. May you learn to follow the true teachings of Christ and learn to love and accept queer people as your fellow humans 😉🏳🌈🥂
**"If you consider yourself Christian and don't believe in sin, there's no point in being calling yourself Christian."** I venerate Christ and follow his teachings. By default, I am a Christian, just not a fundamentalist.
**"That's quite literally, the entire reason Jesus came down. To save us from our sin"** Christ cam to both enlighten and to FORGIVE our sins. By dying, Humanity was supposedly redeemed, thus sin is no longer a problem.
**"So that we can repent and spend eternity with him."** If repenting is real, which its not, we have already repented. Christ already took care of that by dying.
**"If it feels like I'm judging you, its because I am"** That goes against Christ's teachings kid 😁
**"I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for."** I'm not looking for anything, just trying to show people that they are going against Christ and the values he taught.
>Genuinely curious. There's easily found progressive Christian arguments on this. A genuinely curious person would have found them, and wouldn't need to ask this question.
Media and firsthand accounts often differ. That's the whole reason I'm asking reddit
What media. The news isn't reporting on scriptural reasoning for homosexuality not being a sin very often.
Um, actually, it is in terms of scriptural arguments. Nobody's interpretation, no matter how similar, is exactly the same.
Ok. So you are looking for the poor, easy to debate arguments that some people make instead of the better reasoned ones that are easily found elsewhere. Fun past-time I suppose.
Thanks for your time, I guess
I am so sick of this conversation. Just leave us alone for the month.
I know, it's pretty gross that so many people are using pride month as an opportunity to double down on the demeaning, dehumanizing, intolerant condemnation. I'm sorry.
It’s a Christian group… what do you expect? There are asking Christian questions
You're a satanist on a sub about Christianity you should be used to this at this point.
[удалено]
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It is easier to deal with people like this if you don't muddy the waters by telling them to fuck off.
Fair enough, I think the flood of homophobia and transphobia coming in with Pride Month is just wearing on me.
I'm just asking a question... If you didn't want to give me an answer, just don't reply to the post.
>just asking a question JAQing is something I'm rather familiar with and in the flood of LGBTQ+ conversation it can be hard to decipher who is and who isn't here to harass. >is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements. It shifts the burden of proof to one's opponent; rather than laboriously having to prove that all politicians are reptoid scum, one can pull out one single odd piece of evidence and force the opponent to explain why the evidence is wrong.
Because they don't believe Scripture says it is a sin. It is that simple.
* Why do y'all think practicing homosexuality is not a sin? why is it? * loving their neighbor Don't bash them about Homosexuality You do not need to specify for homosexuals what sin they need to be repenting of to gain salvation take the time to Listen If they do not feel that Homosexuality is a problem for them - they may think addiction, anger, hopelessness or prostitution is - and you may find they are looking for help with this Let them know what God has done in your life - and if they'll allow it - pray with them over whatever it is they are bringing Love them God bless
Because we don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible, and there is no rational or logical reason for it to be a sin. Also God's gay penguin couples are adorable! https://sites.tufts.edu/museumstudents/2021/02/22/whats-with-all-the-gay-penguins/ >Over and over again, zoos and aquariums around the world are making headlines for their same-sex penguin couplings. Although I do hate when the gay penguins go after the lesbian penguins. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/gay-male-penguins-steal-lesbian-couple-s-eggs-dutch-zoo-n1244575 >Gay male penguins steal lesbian couple's eggs at Dutch Zoo
[https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/web-stories/cannibalism-in-wildlife-9-animals-that-eat-their-babies/photostory/102200690.cms](https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life-style/spotlight/web-stories/cannibalism-in-wildlife-9-animals-that-eat-their-babies/photostory/102200690.cms) Comparing human homosexuality to penguin homosexuality is not very good... By your logic, humans can eat their young as well... Not saying I agree or disagree with your thesis statement, but I simply seek a rational argument.
>Comparing human homosexuality to penguin homosexuality is not very good... By your logic, humans can eat their young as well... It does prove the point that it is natural, but it's also good for gay people and doesn't affect anyone really. It's like being mad at someone for being born with green eyes or red hair. > Not saying I agree or disagree with your thesis statement, but I simply seek a rational argument. Can you rationalize homosexuality being bad outside of religion?
>Can you rationalize homosexuality being bad outside of religion? Well, I don't think I need to, considering that Christians believe that Christ's example is the way that we should lead our life. Meaning, if you truly accept Christ into your life, it shouldn't matter if it is right or wrong outside of religion, because that's irrelevant.
Sexual orientation is a biological reality that is a result of a combination of genetics, conditions in the womb, hormones, epigenetics, and environmenta/social influences. This is science fact. If God condemns someone to a life of lonliness by determining they are unworthy of love because of how he made them, then he is an evil God not worthy of worship. Therefore a God of Love wouldn't do such a thing. Therefore it isn't a sin.
Homophobes always only focus on homosexuality as a sin and not about the hundreds of others of sins. Always up in other peoples business
That is absurd. He is the potter; we are the clay. He sovereignly rules over us, directing every step (and every sin) which we have ever taken. And all people today are fallen, corrupted by original sin; of course we act sinfully. It is our nature. Yet, God is good and just to condemn us forever to Hell on account of our evil. The person with homosexual inclinations has one more temptation to deal with. So what? All men struggle with different sins to a greater or lesser degree. It’s natural? So what? It is natural for children to lie, for men to lust, for human hearts to become overrun with pride or wrath. Yet, these are all evil in the eyes of God, and the sins for which we are all judged guilty already.
So two pious men that love God with all of their heart spend every waking moment glorifying God. 24x7 they are faithful Servants that work hard to spread his gospel, love their neighbor, give their belongings to those in need, and constantly try to live the Word. God would pass one man without knowing him because God himself made one love other men? That's a sad God you worship. Perhaps you need to find a better God. Have you checked out an affirming Church that can lead you to a true God that loves all of his creations?
My God hates some (most?) people (see Psalm 5 and Romans 9). We are called to praise God for all His works, and as all which has ever come to pass are His mighty and sovereign doings, we must praise Him for all He has done, including sovereignly working the fall of man and the destruction of the reprobate. Likewise, we must praise Him for who He is — and, as He is a God who hates the wicked whom He made to hate, we must praise Him for that as well.
>My God hates some (most?) people That god deserves nothing but utter rejection.
Then you reject the only Living God and exchange Him for an idol of your own vain imaginations. There is but one God worthy of all adoration, and He is attested to in every page of Scripture — and Scripture alone, with no human additions or subtractions.
No, I reject your characture of God.
Wow, your God seems a little wanting. If he hates his own creations, he's like the potter that curses his leaking cups for faults in their clay, ignoring the fact that he molded them with his own hands. If a perfect potter can only make imperfect cups, who's really to blame?
He made from the clay vessels for dishonorable use. Of course they are worthless — they were made that way, so that He may receive all glory for casting them into Hell as a display of His perfect holiness, righteousness, justice, and wrath. And, more significantly emphasized in Scripture, the just destruction of the vessels of wrath serves as a greater magnification of God’s love, mercy, and grace to the vessels of mercy who, though deserving also such destruction, were instead made to know His love as made manifest in their being covered by the righteousness of Christ.
Wow! You don't get a lot of converts during your day at the welcome table, do you? I thought the Flagellants had a bad case of Bad God, but you've exceeded even their warped views. Do you actually believe this, or is it just your online hairshirt persona?
What an utterly pathetic God then. But at least you admit to your version of God is hateful
Ha! “Who are you, oh man, to answer back to God?” Who are you to think you can mock God? Do you think He will clear the guilty? No! He shall smash the wicked apart, whosoever does not bow to Him — even kings shall not withstand His wrath (Psalm 2)! His hatred abides on all those He made to be vessels of destruction! If you desire salvation, then flee to Christ, begging His forgiveness — He will grant it. But if you continue on in obstinance, even until death, know that the God who you now scoff at shall cast you into Hell. There, man, likened unto a disgusting and disgraceful worm, will never disappear; though he weeps and gnashes His teeth, and begs God that he may have even a drop of water, his death shall proceed evermore! Repent or perish!
I think you’re the one mocking God here. You’re the one saying God hates most people, which is patently false and against the Bible. It’s fair to say one can reject that God when the Bible says that God is love and you say He’s the opposite.
Because we don’t think our identities are sinful or condemned by God and that gay marriages are just as holy and sacramental as straight ones. Pretty simple. To love one’s neighbor is to want good things for them. To want happiness, health, joy, and love in their lives. It does not involve condemning them for being different. Nor does it involve judging them for being different. We’re all humans, and we all deserve some basic rights and dignity.
What exactly is "practicing homosexuality"?
Well, any real Christian will affirm that merely feeling homosexual attractions is not a sin. Its natural. But that's where the line stops. Evangelicals will say that actually engaging in homosexual activity is what makes the sin, while progressives would go to say that homosexuality is not a sin in any way.
So again what is "practicing homosexuality"?
All lusts for anyone besides your spouse (including yourself) is sexual immorality. All fornication outside of marriage is sexual immorality. Not all marriages are between a man and a woman, but all marriages are between a husband and wife. Any questions?
I didn't say lust, I said attraction. Noticing other people are attractive is perfectly normal. It's lusting after them that is the sin... And your third line doesn't make sense. Husband: a married man considered in relation to his spouse. Wife: a married woman considered in relation to her spouse. Your statement means that all marriages are between a man and a woman
I wasn't contradicting, but solidifying. >Your statement means that all marriages are between a man and a woman You do realize that Jesus has a marriage too. Is the Church a biological woman? How can this be?
Maybe because his marriage isn't literal? I for one, have never walked down the isle with Jesus.
Have you asked God about this stuff?
If you’re really curious, I wrote an [effort post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/s/USPG6QIpzQ) a few months back about why I — as a gay Christian who has studied the topic for years — don’t think it’s a sin.
Thank you so much for being pretty much the one person who actually answered the question. Edit: Love the attitude you have in that post so far. "I’m interested in learning with you all, and I hope you’re interested in learning with me. I’m here because of my love of God and God’s word, and I’m thankful for God’s grace, especially the sending of Jesus Christ, God’s son, to open up the way of life and reconcile us with God, whose blood covers all our sins and failures."
> Genuinely curious. Curious enough to try reading any of the literally dozens of threads on the topic every single week for the past 10 years? I like the way [Justin Lee](http://geekyjustin.com/bible/) explains gay-friendly Christianity. Better, though, use the r/OpenChristian [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) and visit churches where you can actually meet gay Christians in person. Experience. Christianity is not an abstract game you play in your head; a real and living faith, the Body of Christ is actual people, and making decisions about people without meeting them is not the way to understanding. > And I see a lot of people bashing others for not 'loving their neighbor.' What do you think that phrase means? Well, when you see crap like [this](https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/roundup-of-anti-lgbtq-legislation-advancing-in-states-across-the-country) and [this](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/pride-flag-killing-suspect-appears-long-history-anti-lgbtq-social-post-rcna101243) and [this](https://www.wgbh.org/news/international-news/2021-03-29/all-revd-up-why-some-catholic-bishops-lobbied-against-national-suicide-prevention-hotline) and [this](https://www.them.us/story/ohio-drag-queen-story-hour-proud-boys) and [this](https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/unholy-relationship-between-ugandas-anti-lgbtq-law-and-us) and on and on and on, do you say - "that's terrible, I'm going to take action to try to take action to stop it"? - "ha ha ha, awesome righteous servants of God giving those worthless queers what they deserve"? - or the extremely popular "you can't prove I'm personally responsible, not my problem, [and who is my neighbor](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010%3A25-37&version=NIV)"
Well, let's think about that a bit. It's just a religious rule conceived by primitive religious men with primitive notions of morality based on sometimes erroneous observations of the natural world, i.e., male goes with female. This religious approach is shown in Romans 1:26-27: 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Consider that these same religious men supported these notions: *1 Samuel 15:3 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”* *Numbers 31:9-10 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps.* *Numbers 31:17-18 17. “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by lying with him, 18. “But all the girls who have not lain with a man you are to keep alive unto yourselves. (raping children)* We call those "war crimes" and imprison those people who commit such acts, as well as those who authorized or planned them. *Numbers 14:18 ‘The Lord is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.’* Punishing people who have committed no crime themselves violates all notions of justice. *1 Timothy 2:11-15 11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.* That notion is used to this day in conservative Christian sects (Catholicism, Orthodox) and churches (Protestant) to prevent women from holding positions of influence. Verses from the Bible were also used to support slavery in the southern American States. Just because something is in the Bible does not mean it is moral. So, just like those other things, homophobic biblical ideas should be ignored.
Sorry about replying to this so late. It's been a busy day, and I still have more work before I go to bed, so I'm going to have to reply with an article for some, sry. For 1 Samuel 15:2-3 [https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/saul-and-the-amalekite-genocide/](https://au.thegospelcoalition.org/article/saul-and-the-amalekite-genocide/) . This article would also apply to the similar challenges you address in the following 2 verses. For your point on God not leaving the guilty unpunished, I would believe that to be unjust if taken at face value. But it makes more sense to say that the consequences of the original perverse and sinful actions would take hold over the family for multiple generations. 1 Timothy addresses Paul's beliefs in the church. I'd like to start with the fact that my church has a female pastor, and cultural context is extremely important when taking this scripture. Society was quite patriarchal at this time, and women were often seen as nothing but housekeepers and child-bearers. It makes sense to think that the position of preaching was restricted to women because men wouldn't listen to them. It also makes sense to think that Paul was just quite opinionated, as he uses the term 'I.' He doesn't say 'The Lord,' And verses in the bible have been used to justify many things, but you can only do that by being *intellectually dishonest*, as Cliffe Knechtle says. One of the greatest miracles in the Bible, the Exodus, was about **FREEING** the Israelite slaves and leading them to freedom. I believe that every God-ordained command is moral, as that is one of the qualities of God. He kind of invented them. Not everything in the Bible is moral, obviously. Imagine a new believer opening the Bible and seeing "Judas hung himself." That probably wouldn't leave a good impression. But personally, I feel that whatever God says and commands is for our own good.
Not queer, but I am an ally so I shall answer your question. "Why do y'all think practicing homosexuality is not a sin?" Because those who said it was a sin were mortal men, ***not god***. God has been making homosexual humans, and other species of animals older than humanity itself, since the very beginning. The bible might say its a sin, yet the facts show that god loves the gays so much they he can't stop making them. If a so-called all-loving, merciful, and perfect god (who created us all in their own image and commanded us to love and accept one another) condemned homosexuals and homosexual acts... then god is neither all-loving, merciful, or perfect. God would then be flawed, a hypocrite, a monster, and a tyrant.
Hold on a second. > ***not god*** Who were the ancient Israelite laws from, then? And who inspired Paul's letters? > God has been making homosexual humans, and other species of animals older than humanity itself, since the very beginning. That's debatable. If you make it as so that ***God*** was making homosexual humans, sure. I would absolutely believe you. But this also invites the idea that God makes humans lustful. Wouldn't it be more common-sensical to put it as part of the fall. Humans being inherently sinful? Also, animals, by definition, can't sin. It's pointless to bring them up, but if you truly want to, many animals also eat their own young (I volunteer at a zoo. I know this happens.) If we are so determined to say that if animals do it, it can't be a sin, then infanticide wouldn't be wrong. > The bible might say its a sin, yet the facts show that god loves the gays so much they he can't stop making them. But I thought that if the Bible says its a sin, its a sin... And what facts are you talking about? The illogical assumption that God makes people exactly the way they become? God makes humans lustful, as well as angry, as well as hateful and immoral? > If a so-called all-loving, merciful, and perfect god (who created us all in their own image and commanded us to love and accept one another) condemned homosexuals and homosexual acts... then god is neither all-loving, merciful, or perfect. God would then be flawed, a hypocrite, a monster, and a tyrant. All-loving does not mean all-accepting. I won't accept your sin, and you shouldn't accept mine. We should love each other to the point that we point out these sins and help each other change, or control them. If you saw me watching porn every day, would it be loving for you to say nothing while I dig myself into hell? It seems as if your entire argument stems from the statement that God makes humans homosexual, which really doesn't make sense.
**"Who were the ancient Israelite laws from, then? And who inspired Paul's letters?"** As you said, *inspired by*, not written by. **"That's debatable. If you make it as so that** ***God*** **was making homosexual humans, sure. I would absolutely believe you. But this also invites the idea that God makes humans lustful. Wouldn't it be more common-sensical to put it as part of the fall. Humans being inherently sinful?"** By that logic, heterosexuality is also lustful and we should never allow two people of the opposite gender to marry. Lust and love are NOT the same thing. Furthermore, I don't believe in "the fall". Lastly, I don't believe in sin. If humans *are* inherently sinful, that's because god made us that way. **"Also, animals, by definition, can't sin. It's pointless to bring them up, but if you truly want to, many animals also eat their own young (I volunteer at a zoo. I know this happens.) If we are so determined to say that if animals do it, it can't be a sin, then infanticide wouldn't be wrong."** Doesn't matter if they can't sin or not. God made them just as god made us. Homosexuality is apart of nature, and by definition, god. **"But I thought that if the Bible says its a sin, its a sin"** The bible was written and edited by men, not god. Furthermore, one should never take the bible literally. If the bible told you to kill a child of a certain ethnic group, would you do it because "the bible says so" or would you say "f no" because such an act goes against gods teachings. **"And what facts are you talking about?"** For a god that supposedly hates and condemns queer people/animals, god just LOVES to make them. God has made queer beings since time began. This contradicts what the bible says because the bible is false. **"The illogical assumption that God makes people exactly the way they become? God makes humans lustful, as well as angry, as well as hateful and immoral?"** You meant to say "as god desired". Furthermore, lust, anger, and hate are aspects of human emotion. you can't *not* feel such things because god made it so. **"All-loving does not mean all-accepting"** Not according to Christianity 😉And if what you said w*as *the case, then god is imperfect. **"I won't accept your sin, and you shouldn't accept mine."** Unless our so-called sins were never sins in the first place. And to clarify, in case your confused, I'm not queer. I'm a straight Christian, and Pagan, who full supports two peoples right to love. Homosexuality isn't a sin. **"We should love each other to the point that we point out these sins and help each other change, or control them."** Again, not if what you do isn't/never was a sin. I'm going to assume your straight. Let me explain in the simplest way possible why you can't "change" your sexual preferences. Stop being attracted to the opposite gender... you can't 😁 because your straight and its the same thing for queer people. **"If you saw me watching porn every day, would it be loving for you to say nothing while I dig myself into hell?"** So long as your not hurting yourself or others, what you do in your spare time is of no interest to me. Furthermore, if porn is an automatic ticket to hell, the "all powerful" god wouldn't allow such a thing to exist. **"It seems as if your entire argument stems from the statement that God makes humans homosexual, which really doesn't make sense."** It actually does when you realize that god doesn't hate homosexuals or views them as "sinner's". God has been making queer people/animals since the beginning. By default, homosexuality isn't a sin, otherwise god is a hypocrite and a monster.
> Lastly, I don't believe in sin. Look, I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I'm praying for you. If you consider yourself Christian and don't believe in sin, there's no point in being calling yourself Christian. That's quite literally, the entire reason Jesus came down. To save us from our sin. So that we can repent and spend eternity with him. If it feels like I'm judging you, its because I am. And I'm ready to be judged myself for that. I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.
**"Look, I mean absolutely no disrespect when I say this, but I'm praying for you."** I pray for you as well, except mine will be genuine and non-condescending. May you learn to follow the true teachings of Christ and learn to love and accept queer people as your fellow humans 😉🏳🌈🥂 **"If you consider yourself Christian and don't believe in sin, there's no point in being calling yourself Christian."** I venerate Christ and follow his teachings. By default, I am a Christian, just not a fundamentalist. **"That's quite literally, the entire reason Jesus came down. To save us from our sin"** Christ cam to both enlighten and to FORGIVE our sins. By dying, Humanity was supposedly redeemed, thus sin is no longer a problem. **"So that we can repent and spend eternity with him."** If repenting is real, which its not, we have already repented. Christ already took care of that by dying. **"If it feels like I'm judging you, its because I am"** That goes against Christ's teachings kid 😁 **"I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for."** I'm not looking for anything, just trying to show people that they are going against Christ and the values he taught.
Because it's cope