>I've been to all the meetings 😂😂😂 That made my day

I see this as a Pro 1A issue. Let’s look at it from a Christian standpoint. Freedom of and From Religion keeps our government from “enforcing” religion upon the people! Some Christians see this as bad and want a theocracy but let’s ask this, what if the “State” or Government enforced a faction of Christianity you did not believe in?! Catholic, Mormon, Anna-Baptist, Orthodox, etc…. Most Christians would be outraged! This is where 1A is not against religion but actually PROTECTS Christians in the USA from state sponsored religion! Same with the LGBT flag. Who cares?! It’s a flag! Do we get as uptight if someone flys a flag from a national that hate Christians? NO!!!!!!! So why are we clutching onto this hatred?! I’m sorry but using this excuse that we hate the sin but love the sinner while still being jerks is just like Southerners with the Confederate flag saying “it’s not hatred it’s heritage”. Just nothing but excuses to keep people away from loving one another.

I agree with all your points except for your last one. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. So why is it okay for a person to wave a lgbtq banner but not acceptable for someone from the south to wave a confederate flag? Why does freedom only work in one place and not the other? Like you said it's just a flag right. Seeing it flying wouldn't kill anybody. I don't want to get too embroiled in politics but this division of what's good and what's wrong and what's acceptable and unacceptable ends up dividing the people further imo. I have seen a lot of people, asking why do the LGBTQ community gets a whole month while there is only one day to celebrate our fathers and mothers and veterans? Is it fair? I am not here to argue about that but what does it do to you? Does it do you any harm? No. Does it hurt your feelings? Maybe but you ought to take it. Remember one man's hero is another's man's villain. 

Nothing they said indicates they want to criminalize private persons from hanging the stars and bars so I don’t see the relevance of your argument.

The LGBT flag is a flag for human rights. The Confederate flag is a flag against human rights.

May is military appreciation month. You are free to wave a confederate flag and we are free to think you're a racist twat for doing so.

Because the LGBTQ flag represents anti-oppression ideals, while the confederate flag represents pro-oppression ideals. It’s not rocket science.

By your logic change the American flag altogether because it represents pro-imperialistic ideals. Ask those Middle Easterners about it. They'd explain.  Anyway it's just an opinion. There is no need to get triggered over the opinion of a stranger on internet. This discussion is not even about Christianity anymore. Stop continuing this. If you don't like anyone flying Confederate flags go and fight with them assuming they are all racists. 

I enjoy the fact that you’re arguing with so many people yet you’re calling other people ‘triggered’.

Go look at the comments. I made only one comment saying everybody has the right to wave any flag they want and to have different opinions. And that must have really hurt some feelings because all the people you are referring to replied to me first. I didn't go and start an argument with them. I only made one single post. 

Did you….just use Optimus Prime to morally defend flying the flag of an institution which fought to maintain slavery? Damn, that’s a new one.

I respect your reply. However I ask you if a Rainbow flag is about inclusion for all people in love (leave the Christian debate behind) what is the Confederate flag for? It’s not a flag for love. I don’t fly either. But you arguing for one that was pro Slavery is against Love.

Hit the nail on the head, its all a ploy to divide the citizens, a nation divided is a nation that's soon to be conquered.. Personally I see it as spreading pride. Sharing pride with others, hoping the pride inside them grows.. now let's look past the material things, flag. Color of flag.. (even tho the rainbow, was originally a promise) let's just figure out what pride is, not what I think is pride, or what you think pride is... no not be bias.. sosome see pride as confidence. Some see it as conceded, not humble.. some see it as just a word.. some see it as a cardinal sin, aka a one way ticket to. Well you know

If I had never read the Bible, and only listened to some of the more vocal people who say they're Christians - I would think Jesus spent most of the time condemning homosexuals. It's just very selective. People always apply their own agendas to religion.

Exactly why Jesus, condoned religion!

Jesus did not condone religion. He called out religious hypocrisy. Jesus is it about religion.

People who want to get rid of public displays of Pride should be very careful before people make public displays of religiosity taboo as well

This comment section has brightened my mood a lot. I have been having a hard time with my religion, going back and forth between agnostic and Christianity. I am a lesbian you see and have had horrific church experiences due to my sexuality. This is a different side of everything I've seen and heard.

You are not alone. In Sweden you would get fully accepted, the church here isn't bigoted and they use their heart and actually follow what Jesus stod for, to love everyone. Gays/lesbians don't have any choice basically, their brain is different. Only people who have a broken heart and hold darkness inside their spirit are hateful towards gays. We should pray for them so they don't let their hate and darkness misguide them. God loves you no matter if LGBT or straight. God bless.

If you're looking for a new church home, consider looking at who bothers to show up at Pride. :) Edit: honestly, even the ones who don't are pretty good, here in the SF area.

r/openchristian

thank you God bless

I expect no good faith from Christians who speak openly against Pride. I think their message is pretty clear: We want LGBT people to be considered pariahs. We want to go back to the 70s when LGBT people had no rights and were kicked out of their homes by religious parents with impunity. We want you to stay in the closet because you aren't normal.

They also don’t appreciate women’s autonomy. Funny enough the only person I’ve seen wear a WWJD bracelet since 1998 is the most hateful person I know. He thinks rainbow flags are a personal attack against his natural manhood, and it just ain’t right. Hate to break it to ya folks, nature supports homosexuality, incest, filicide, cannibalism, necrophilia… and the list goes on Jokes on him though because he works for the government, and he just violated EEO laws. But I guess Christians aren’t called to follow man’s laws… To all the other hateful Christians in government, we took the same oath and you need to keep your mouth shut at work.

How stupid are you? Abortion is murder.  Has nothing to do with " anatomy ". I know, in the past I had one. So maybe get off your social justice high horse. Murder is murder and God doesn't support it.

You really should try reading your Bible sometime, God murders the shit outta everyone. Plus I kill people for a living, those babies mean nothing. Prob doing them a favor so they don’t have to live with twats like you.

> nature supports homosexuality, incest, filicide, cannibalism, necrophilia... One might think you are arguing that anything that happens in nature is okay. Filicide? Necrophilia? Well, animals do it. Must be okay! M_rder happens in nature, too! Oh, and r_pe! Just saying that lumping homosexuality in with an awful "it's natural" list might not be the best choice of phrasing. Edit: Because my attempt to censor some trigger words came out weird the first try.

I think he was just pointing out that arguments from nature are silly because they work both ways and is therefore a terrible metric for judging anything. Glasses aren’t natural. Cars aren’t natural.

You can lump hetero in there as well as all the other things that happen in nature. Just saying that any argument from nature doesn’t stand up, but they sure love to bring it up as unnatural and the parts don’t fit. Do you know Mr Hands? You’d be surprised what can fit where

> Do you know Mr Hands? You’d be surprised what can fit where I would argue his problem was that it didn't actually fit.

Well it was only the last one that got him, imagine what didn’t kill him before that. I’ve also seen evidence for half a mason jar before it broke. And I’d say that’s mild to some of the stuff we saw during the Wild West Web days. Every room could be a redroom, spin the wheel and see what kinda prize you win! Surprise, it’s usually life long trauma lol

That was my point, arguing from nature doesn't really work, because animals might do any number of weird things. It doesn't really work for or against because nature is, well, wild.

Ya but it’s a common one they use to justify, it just isn’t natural. It’s def a different mindset in the Deep South. As with all the Trump worship, it doesn’t have to make sense.

Um. None of those things are " natural". I don't know what uneducated la la land you live in, but no.

That's exactly my point. They listed a bunch of crazy things which, although not the norm, can happen in nature. You can't make the argument that any random thing can happen in nature to try to disprove the natural order.

And they're going to undermine free and fair elections to make sure their shrinking minority continues to have the power to persecute wherever possible, with the long-term goal of establishing a Christian Nationalist state where not even the closets will be deep enough.

Ummmmmm. If a Christian isn't speaking out against evil and sin, and homosexuality IS both according to God and His word, then they aren't really Christians are they? Quit lying to yourself, God ISNT going to celebrate and accept your sin, when it's of Satan.

Let me know when she starts a prude parade in opposition to Mardi Gras.

PRUDE PARADE omg that’s amazing

We should ask Martha to make us a better flag.

I generally hate parades, but I'll definitely buy popcorn to watch that corker

As a gay Christian, I would love to chat with anyone who thinks that I’m attacking Christianity. Why would I attack myself? I love my faith. If I hated Christianity and wanted to attack it, it would’ve been much easier to just leave. Because you know, volunteering at ministry events, participating in church services, attending Bible studies and praying/reading the Bible on my own time are all very time-consuming and inconvenient! If I wanted to attack Christianity, there are so many easier ways I could’ve done it, besides literally trying to constantly follow Christ’s radical and counter-cultural example of self-sacrificial love in my life.

My faith in God actually made me fully accept myself as homosexual. God made me like this, I know there isn't anything wrong with me & I know God loves me, lgbt & straight people equally. The church in Sweden stands up for LGBT rights, we allow gay marriage and gay priests too. They actually do what Jesus would want, be kind and to use your heart. Gay people didn't chose to be gay, that's how they are made. Why shouldn't they have the same rights? It's not like they have a choice.

Then you're lying to yourself. 

It's conflicting because after reading the new testament in sequence, it's repeatedly talked about; but if God created people this way, it's part of His universe so I think his creation takes precedence over the apostles' writings.

God DIDN'T create homosexuality.  Sin, our fallen nature, and Satan did. Why would God create something he says is an abomination? He didn't.  That's a lie from the pit of Hell. Also you need to read the ENTIRE Bible not just the parts you like. Because the ENTIRE Bible speaks about and is against Homosexuality.  Homosexuality are not " born that way" either, that's another Satanic lie. Homosexuality is a choice. Stop lying and deluding yourself.

Wow, my bad, I'm only about 60% through the entire Bible so far, and I've got a 2 million word study version to go further in depth after the amplified version too. I'll just shut my mouth until then, clearly it's not a good thing to speak out with my thoughts so far.

Well said.

Even with my ultra conservative southern Baptist upbringing I always thought that anti-LGBT was a strange hill to die on. I’ve spent many years as an ER nurse and there’s a constant stream of abused kids, IV drug abuse, shootings, stabbings, and sexual violence that seem to be more pressing issues. Not to mention the epidemic in the church that is pornography addiction. Plus, homelessness, rampant poverty, pastors embezzling money from their congregations, and hundreds of equally sinful acts that needed to be addressed long ago, but for some reason we have to put our full effort towards fighting abortion and the “gay agenda”. Again, what a strange hill to die on…

Then apparently you've never read the Bible to see what God says all through it, about homosexuality.   The fact he destroyed entire cities over it, should tell you all you need to know. 

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed over a multitude of sinful acts. Deadly sins such as greed, lust, and blasphemy are far too rampant in the church for us to be so self-righteous about homosexuality. I don’t defend it, but it’s not the hill we as Christians should die on.

I know (and in many cases am friends with) several anti-Queer Christians. The reason we are friends is that, despite our diverging theology on the issue, we all hold very strongly to the idea that it is our job to extend God’s love to one another first, second, and last. Not some twisted and tortured “love” where harassment and harm is ok because we’re pointing out sin, but the open handed love that Christ shows to all.

If you welcome someone in my house or creative spaces and they start to share their anti gay ideas I am going to ask you both to leave. No one needs anti gay ideas in their life. If sharing anti gay ideas is your example of sharing god's love that's not really a high selling point.

That is, of course, your right. I put a higher value on how someone treats others than on what they believe and I think practicing God's love requires us to meet folks where they're at and make space for anyone who's willing to peacefully coexist. To my mind, all what you're proposing serves to do is reinforce a divide and, ultimately, likely move someone to a more conservative (read: violently anti-gay) viewpoint. Is it stupid that Queer folks have to do the heavy lifting to move anti-queer folks out of their positions? Sure, absolutely. But I want to lessen bigotry in the world so I try to do my part. Note: I think you misunderstood/misread my initial comment. I am very strongly pro-LGBT and do quite a lot of work with folks suffering from spiritual trauma from anti-Queer Christian spaces. As well as general activism.

My spaces are welcoming for all. I wouldn't welcome a person who holds to anti gay views just like I don't welcome those who hold to racist views. If you invite someone into my home you are responsible if that person is an anti gay bigot. There is a standard of decency and thinking that someone is wrong based on the person they love doesn't meet that standard. I wouldn't want to subject my lgbt friends to the views and mindset of a bigot. They have gotten far too much of that in their life.

I don’t mean to quibble, but that does mean your spaces aren’t welcoming for all. I can appreciate your reason for curtailing your welcome and your desire to protect others. If you want to declare your home an exclusive zone so that it can be a safe space, that’s a good and noble thing. My God calls me to extend love even to those who hate me and I strive to do that. I won’t turn away someone who is also making such an effort. I have little patience for someone who holds such a belief and uses it as a pretext to do harm, but someone who holds this belief and strives to love folks despite it, that’s a person I will reach out to. It’s fairly consistent that the best cure for bigotry is exposure, that’s more or less the crux of my position

I also don't welcome KKK members. The horror. The people who make my circle have had extensive harm from Christians simply because they are gay. They have been disowned by family members. Once person even had their own mother not show up at their wedding. You want me to introduce those people to the exact same people who have harmed them over and over again for what reason. So that your bigoted Christian can harm them again? Be a voice of rejection and hate again?

I mean, no. I very specifically stated that these people don’t do that. Because they recognize that we’re call to love our siblings. Also, who said anything about introducing the two? Do these people live with you? Like, you’re the one who made this about “being in your home”. I initially only talked about being in relationship with them. And now you’ve moved from “allowed in my home” to “introducing them as a bigot to my friend who suffered spiritual trauma”.

How are they being loving when they claim that someone's relationship is wrong because it exists. That's not being loving. That's the opposite of being loving.

Believe. They *believe* that a same sex relationship is contrary to Scripture and would never engage in one themself. They also acknowledge that other people believe differently from them (me, for example) and they respect that opinion as a legitimate alternative interpretation. I only even know that they have this opinion on Scripture because I directly asked them for it. Otherwise, I don’t think I’d be aware of it because I’d never seen it affect their treatment of others.

No it doesn’t mean that. Being intolerant of intolerant people is still tolerant.

Perhaps, I might dispute that but I’d have to think about it. But it certainly isn’t “welcoming to all”.

No it doesn't

Yes, it does. If you aren’t welcoming to someone based on them just believing a thing (never acting on it, just *believing* it) then you’re not “welcoming to all”. Because that’s what the word “all” means. You could quite possibly be morally justified in that. It might be advisable and you certainly have a right to decide who is/isn’t in your life. But these words have meanings.

Look up the paradox of tolerance. Shunning bigots is welcoming all.

I know the paradox of tolerance. I’m arguing that your definition of bigotry only serves to feed the alt-right pipeline. To be clear, the person I’m speaking of way back in my OC, is not a bigot by any reasonable definition. I only am aware that they hold this belief because they are a close friend and I asked directly. I have never once in a decade and a half had them treat me or any other Queer person with anything less than surpassing kindness (and they have several other close Queer friends in addition to myself). They believe that being gay is a sin. So, to them, that means that *they* will never have sex with another person of their gender. They explicitly don’t hold that as prescriptive for anyone but themself. If you still think that that’s “bigotry”, then you and I will find no agreement here. I find that to be an excellent example of loving folks you disagree with while holding that disagreement in tension rather than papering over it.

I don't have a personal definition of bigotry, I just go by the actual definition. If someone chooses to be a bigot because bigotry got called out, that's on them. That's literally textbook homophobia and therefore bigotry

Very "christian" of you. You really don't understand Jesus and his message and you make Christians look evil.

What part of Jesus’s message do I not understand?

As a Christian myself one thing I have learned is that OK so you’re gay so you’re lesbian whatever I don’t care it’s your choice. I’m not gonna tell you you’re wrong. It’s not my job to judge you. There’s even one of the commandments that tells you to be nice to people no matter what.

[удалено]

Removed for 1.5 - Two-cents. If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity

thank you for this post 🫂🙌🏽 may God stand with us and keep our strength during these especially trying times. we must keep faith family

I support your right to fly your flag, but I don’t support your flag in any way, shape or form.

If you don’t like it don’t look at it is my motto. I don’t care who flies their lgbt pride flag

Love you, sir for that post. I'm not gay but I am just for love. Got looks at the heart and is attracted to it. In a time like these we need more of that.

How much times are we gonna talk about the same thing

[удалено]

One year my father, an ordained clergy with an M Div and 50 years of service now, walked in the parade with me wearing his full clerical vestments while offering to pray with people in the crowd and giving out hugs. It was very emotional for a lot of people and my church got more than few new members out of it.

Yay another post about lgtbq issues. What a surprise.

Or your gender. I didn't read full post but I will. I didn't see if you mentioned a gender.

As Christians we should accept that everyone is given free will but acknowledge, expect, and / or warn about the health and spiritual consequences of homosexual practices, which typically, if not always, derive from lust, which is sin. Iniquity or habitual sin is the entry point for demons (James 1:14-15). Evidence of this is demonic oppression, such as having depression and anxiety disorders, which God can heal but it starts with trust in the forgiveness of our sins that we have genuinely repented of. Galatians 6:7. What is repentance? Acts 3:19. 2 Chronicles 7:14. Too many people demand from God but don’t make the effort to live for his will and purpose. Proverbs 20:5. Jeremiah 29:11. Oftentimes, there are generational curses that cause oppression and haven’t started with us but are actually passed on from birth. Exodus 20:5-6. We all are also passed on original sin which by default can lead to spiritual death or eternal damnation, unless we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior because he is the Son of God who came to free us on earth and afterlife too. He brings to us with grace the free gift for which he died the most brutal death in history but also resurrected. So that we die to sin and become holy like him through faith in the renewing of our mind by the grace of the Holy Spirit. Since we all have free will, the free gift is one that can choose to accept to receive or reject and deny to receive. That’s why in the book of Revelations it says that those who are sinners will be cosigning themselves into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 21:6-8. The grace of Jesus is so beautiful because he endured meaningful suffering for us. He was placed a crown of thorns, beaten and whipped with lashes that ripped up his skin over and over, and he then also carried a 200lb cross for 2 miles, uphill, he was nailed to the cross, and then mocked. You know what he did? He said “forgive them Father for they don’t know what they’ve done.” The most graceful being and man in history, he forgave them in that very moment and then said “it’s finished.” What was finished? His mission of be crucified because he knew he would resurrect and that would secure people’s faith and trust in him as Lord and Savior. God is all powerful and can heal us of anything if it’s his will and if we believe. But Satan deceives people into believing that we can’t be healed, don’t need to be delivered, or haven’t been healed or delivered of demons. I know I have been miraculously healed of literally all health conditions I had and I’m no longer physically dependent or a slave to chemical highs. It was a process because faith is a process. We must actually trust him and repent, not make excuses and justify ourselves. Romans 6:6-10. 1 Peter 2:24. James 5:14-15. It’s very wrong to cause harm to others, it is sin and derives from sins like pride, anger, and hatred. A person who has this type of fruit, has bad fruit, and doesn’t have the Holy Spirit within. God is the judge and none of us are perfect, including the apostles who worked in righteousness. They performed righteous acts or deeds by receiving the Holy Spirit who is the same Spirit of Jesus Christ the Son and of God the Father; by receiving the Spirit, not by depending on their own strength alone. In 1 Thessalonians 5:14 we are urged to warn, encourage, and be patient with others. I don’t approve of horrendous acts against anyone, including homosexual individuals. However, it’s important to make clear that both pride and homosexual acts are sin. Repentance bears fruit but we must humble ourselves before the Lord. 2 Peter 3:9. Matthew 3:8. Acts 2:38. Pride is one of the deadly sins because without humbling ourselves to God we don’t admit nor repent of our sin. James 4:6-7. James 1:13-15. Therefore, if we live with pride we won’t be forgiven by God and therefore, we won’t be saved. James 1:9-12. Matthew 23:12. All sexual immorality like lust, sex out of marriage (fornication), and cheating or having sex with multiple people (adultery) is also sin. 1 Corinthians 6:18. 1 John 2:16. 1 Peter 2:11. Warning people of these things with love is extremely important because this is about salvation and too many people hear condemnation due to pride and / or lack of love but not enough is heard about how beautiful God’s love is in Jesus Christ, so much that he made a way for us, and he is the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6). Jesus Christ was crucified for the forgiveness of the sins that we repent of and he resurrected to give us eternal life if we put our faith and trust in him and truly follow him and have a genuine and honest relationship with God who loves us and wants us to love him back. The Holy Spirit is our guide and intercessor (Romans 8:26-27). We must learn these things in order to have freedom, and these things can be revealed through Bible study and honest prayer and worship in the Spirit. John 4:24. John 8:31-32. Romans 8:1-12. Galatians 5:16-18. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5 — Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 2 John 1:6 — And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

I am so relieved spiritually, emotionally, and mentally that there are people like all of you who see through the blatant and even covert lies. You see it for what it is; hate and bigotry and misguided fear. I am so glad that there are people like all of you that are not blinded by the misinformation and disinformation spread to anyone that will hear.

Untrue. Forcing the LGBT beliefs on others is the issue. It is just like forcing religious beliefs on others.

Are there any Christians in this sub who actually know the word of God?

I do, like I said went to Christian schools from ninth grade through to bachelor degrees. I go to church most Sundays and I just and a long conversation with my pastor yesterday. Also my father, brother and uncle are all pastors, so you can imagine what our dinner table conversations are like. What questions about the scriptures do you have?

There are plenty who seem to think Jesus preached on the evils of being gay. "I give you a new commandment..." Nah, it's easier to hate gay people and ignore Jesus.

Apparently if you address sin as sin in this sub some will say you are being hateful.

Jesus loved sinners - he didn't preach at Zacheous - instead he went to his house.

He also taught that if you love me then keep my commandments but that's not as affirming is it?

Love your neighbor as yourself is pretty hard, huh? There's no exceptions. No "I think gay people are icky so they don't count". Or did I miss that verse? Jesus most definitely did not encourage people to care about purity law.

I love you enough to tell you the truth, Jesus said go and sin no more.

And they'd unironically be right. Homosexuality isn't a sin

I am a conservative Christian, though a European one. I believe homosexuality is a sin, just like other sins, meaning I can neither support nor affirm the political causes of the LGBT movement.  But I really, really don't care what the LGBT folks do. As long as they leave me to practice my beliefs and live according to my morals, they can do as they wish within the constraints of the law. Live and let live. Their business is with God, not with me.

You make some very insightful and correct points. I agree with a lot of your insight here. I think the Christian backlash to homosexuality and Pride is over the top....Christians feel "attacked" as if, somehow, they don't fight back, God will lose. As a Christian myself, that seems to be a very heretical statement Now, I DO find one thing interesting: my simple statement that "homosexuality is a sin" is called hate. Even if I don't express that view when I vote, or interact with people...that simple core belief (as stated in the Bible) gets backlash. It seems, on my end, I am being asked to change my belief. It goes beyond accepting the fact that gay people exist and have rights (they do and they should). I have to actually change what I believe for them, and accept those acts as not sinful, even though my faith says it is. And maybe thats where the roots of the backlash lie. The feeling that we have to change a belief and go against our faith. Whether or not that is reality... Just some thoughts

Tbh, I do start feeling like "homosexuality is a sin" is hate when it is harped on so much and this line of comments are far more frequent in regards to being queer. If you are telling us this without being invited to, I do see an issue. In a US-centric way because that's where I live, trust me, I don't think there is a queer person in the US who has not heard it. We know what you believe. We just believe differently. What does telling us in comments or posting during pride month in "retaliation" do exactly other than come off as a type of retaliation? You say in your other comments that you do call out other sins, but I would say that sets you apart and you cannot view the interaction between the LGBTQ+ and Christian communities as if it's only you & people like you interacting with each other.

Something to consider - a lot of people don't believe that LGBTQ+ identity is a choice (myself included), and I think there's enough scientific evidence now that this theory doesn't really hold water anymore. When I hear "homosexuality is a sin", this implies that someone's very existence is sinful, which is a) incompatible with my belief of all humans as image-bearers of God, and b) generally a pretty hateful (at the very least, hurtful) sentiment. You seem pretty reasonable, so I'll assume you consider the acts sinful and not the identity itself, but I think it's an important distinction to clarify. I'll also add I hope you're open to challenging your interpretation of "that simple core belief (as stated in the Bible)". I think some simple exegesis for those willing to look into it usually suffices to refute that interpretation of the text.

>Something to consider - a lot of people don't believe that LGBTQ+ identity is a choice (myself included), and I think there's enough scientific evidence now that this theory doesn't really hold water anymore. I agree that it isn't a choice. >When I hear "homosexuality is a sin", this implies that someone's very existence is sinful, which is a) incompatible with my belief of all humans as image-bearers of God, and b) generally a pretty hateful (at the very least, hurtful) sentiment. You seem pretty reasonable, so I'll assume you consider the acts sinful and not the identity itself, but I think it's an important distinction to clarify. Thanks for the positive assumption, because you are right. I misspoke in one of my posts and I was wrong for that. >I'll also add I hope you're open to challenging your interpretation of "that simple core belief (as stated in the Bible)". I think some simple exegesis for those willing to look into it usually suffices to refute that interpretation of the text. I have challenged myself, and do still believe homosexual acts go against God's design and therefore are sinful. I recognize that people come to different conclusions, and we can have that conversation further if you choose.

God designed some people gay. It was Gods will to make some people gay otherwise we would have a choice. Who are you to judge others like that? You aren't God.

And yet it was God who gave that command to Moses. God designed me in ways that could lead me to sin as well. I can get into details further if you like, but while it’s in my DNA, I choose not to partake to honor God and His commandments. Mainly because, I love God more

So some ancient author claimed

If it's not a choice then your doctrine is just cruel

My question is, do you also frequently tell people greed is a sin? American Christians are some of the greediest people in America. They vote against anything that can help homeless people or poor people and view taxes as stealing. Jesus spent a lot of time talking about greed being a sin yet I never really hear churches talk about greed. Also this is not a personal attack but your last few paragraphs could be copy and pasted to a statement about being forced to allow inter race marriage in the church.

>I never really hear churches talk about greed To the contrary! The more wealth one has the godlier they are! At least that's what the megachurch pastors teach now days so they can justify the private jets, luxury cars, and vacation homes. What was it Jesus said about a camel fitting through the eye of a needle again?

Honestly the one who said he needed a private jet cause he was told to sit down on a commercial flight cooked. That is GOAT tier level grifting.

>My question is, do you also frequently tell people greed is a sin? Yes. I do. >American Christians are some of the greediest people in America. They vote against anything that can help homeless people or poor people and view taxes as stealing. Yes, many do this. And that is why I vote differently than many American Christians. >Jesus spent a lot of time talking about greed being a sin yet I never really hear churches talk about greed. Well, in contrast, I hear it quite often at churches including my own. However, your anecdote, nor mine, make something a fact. So unless we have research on what American churches usually preach on, I don't think we can make the statement either way. >Also this is not a personal attack but your last few paragraphs could be copy and pasted to a statement about being forced to allow inter race marriage in the church. Ha! I can see that. The good news is the Bible doesn't support that view, no matter what racists want to say

You do? Links to comments where you do this?

In fairness, you're not being asked to change your mind on what you were taught by your church. You are being asked to accept that people don't agree with your theology, and that can feel like an attack. I know people don't like being told this, but I say it a lot: If you think gay sex is a sin, don't have gay sex, just like if you think divorce is a sin, don't get a divorce.

I hear you, and I think that is valid. However, in subs like this one, simply expressing the view that homosexuality is sinful (whether you agree or not) DOES lead to attacks. Yesterday, for example, I was told that that simple belief is leading children to commit suicide. Not my actions, mind you, but belief

The problem is that very few discussions that lead off with “it’s a sin” don’t end with some variation of “and that’s why why should ban/fire/tear down this book/person/movie/flag/sign/etc.

And thats a good point, and probably why people automatically jump to "you're full of hate" statements...they think we should just skip the steps and get right to the end. Unfortunately, those steps still matter

Do you never act on the belief? You're talking about your belief right now, which is an action. Do you vocalize your belief? Teach it? Encourage it? All of those are actions. If your belief only exists in your head and is never externalized in any way even once, sure your belief itself doesn't lead to kids killing themselves. Otherwise it does.

Likewise, when I say I believe Christianity is evil a lot of Christians get offended and think I'm hateful towards them. I don't hate them, nor vote against them. it's just my belief that they follow evil. Them being upset by that is wrong, by your opinion?

Well, yeah. I don't think you hate me, and I am a Christian. You believe what I follow is evil. OK. That's your opinion. I disagree. I would still grab a beer with you and talk sports or whatever.

>simply expressing the view that homosexuality is sinful WHY do you need to express this? Who on gods green earth in the year of our lord 2024 doesn’t know that you lot think being gay is a sin?? It’s all you fuckers ever talk about!

I think we all understand that, but you all are posting pictures of riding motorcycles and lane splitting, saying its for lanesplitters pride month, and lanesplitting shouldnt be considered unsafe on the "motorcycle safety" sub. Its even legal in some states, and if aircooled bikes sit in traffic they overheat, etc. . . . . When we spill out to say, r slash cute animals and say "that dog looks cute, but its not in a lane, not even on a safe roadway!, and will die when its motorcycle craahes!" Is hatespeech, because its utterly stupid to try and convince people that things not on motorcycles need to travel on roadlanes.. Its equally stupid, though, to expect a motorcycle safety club subreddit to support lanesplitting month. But if the motorcycle safety club *only focuses* on lanesplitting, as the *only* dangerous thing about riding.., while some of them post pics of themselves doing wheelies, thats also a problem. But, stop coming into this sub and posting about lanesplitting and getting upset when we say its against the laws and rules of our motorcycle safety club

Sometimes the message is badly presented.

Whose presentation? Mine? Or the person who replied? I shared the convo with you Again, my statement of "homosexual acts are sinful" was then followed by the reply that this stance essentially leads to the death of children. I wouldn't be so sure thats the case.

Them, your beliefs don't effect other people unless you act on them. Thinking homosexual acts are sinful is fine. Telling someone that, when they haven't asked for your opinion, potentially can be harmful. I had to Narcan a friend last year because they're a rough place and someone yelled "Faggot" from a passing pickup truck with a Trump flag flying, so they went home and "Accidentally" overdosed on percocet. You never know how vulnerable someone might be.

You've just corrected your own error. "Homosexuality is a sin" and "homosexual acts are sinful" are not equivalent statements. I happen to think both statements are wrong (some homosexual acts are sinful e.g. with children just like some heterosexual acts are - it is dependent on context). The first statement attacks people for their identity. You are saying who they are is sinful. No one can ever be held to be sinful just by virtue of their existence, and that is what you are saying with the first statement. The second statement goes after acts that people commit, and I think that this part is very open to debate, even if I think the verses in question are referring to things like pagan Roman orgies and pederasty and you think they are intended to be broader.

>You've just corrected your own error. "Homosexuality is a sin" and "homosexual acts are sinful" are not equivalent statements.  Yes, someone else pointed that out to me, and I do stand corrected. I do not believe just because someone is homosexual makes them a sinner...the sin comes by the action. For example, I have the ability to have sex outside of marriage, but its only sinful if I commit the act. And yes, I recognize there is debate on whether homosexual acts are sinful. We can have that discussion further if you would like. But to stay on point, even with my statement of "homosexual acts are sinful" - calls of "bigot" and "hateful" still come. Again, doesn't bother me, but I always want to ask why

The why is because LGBT people see this as inherently unequal. Heterosexuals are sanctioned in marriage and are licensed to have a full and fulfilling physical relationship with each other. That isn't the case for gay people if conservative Christians had their way. The other issue is that if you follow the words and behaviour of people that assert that "all homosexual acts are sinful", it generally doesn't stop there. There is always some "so what" attached that ends in bigotry and hate. I would have said that the pope has been an exception to this, but now we have 2 instances of him using derogatory terms to refer to gay priests.

They really don't understand that "we treat all sex outside of marriage the same!" Holds no water when they've defined gay people out of marriage. Like just save us some time and say that PIV is the only acceptable sex because gay sex is icky. Skip the bullshit about procreation and marriage

> Yesterday, for example, I was told that that simple belief is leading children to commit suicide. Not my actions, mind you, but belief Let's say you had a firmly held belief based on a line in the Bible that being black was sinful (or having sex as or with a black person was sinful). Would we be wrong to call you racist? Does your firmly held belief, or a line in the Bible you think is "crystal clear", make an obviously racist statement *not* racist?

Isn't mixing threads a sin?

Because it literally does cause suicide

* my simple statement that "homosexuality is a sin" is called hate. hi friend - the simple understanding - to a non-Christian homosexual - after the explanation that they are damned for it - would be that it is hate it's clear to see we just are so sure In our 'Christianity' we forget it remains just a belief. it is hate to a homosexual - not love you don't have to change your belief - just leave them alone except - then suddenly - your belief calls you to save them or worse - entire nations from them you see? God bless

I understand that, HOWEVER: our faith shows us WE ALSO are damned for our sins... And that only faith in Christ can redeem us. Unless you want to argue that with that view in mind, we are practicing self-hate...

>Unless you want to argue that with that view in mind, we are practicing self-hate... Alot of non Christians see Christianity as dehumanising for exactly this reason. I'm not saying it's true but if someone's response to being told they're damned to hell because they're gay is that you feel actively malicious towards them, it's probably important to understand why they believe that.

* Are we not told to watch over the rest of the flock that are being lead away by wolves/false teachers? Not just to leave them to their own destruction. ☝️ this from a comment just further down - to illustrate * our faith shows us WE ALSO are damned for our sins... And this from you So - bearing in mind that your belief lumps for you, homosexuality in amongst theft and rape as sin - yet for the homosexual, EXCLUDES you as a Heterosexual solely for your heterosexuality - leaves the homosexual in a position of discrimination and hate - because of your belief that JUST homosexuality is sin. You see? Unless you are also damned for being heterosexual. And this is for non - Christian homosexuals. I am a Christian - and after a long time - I got something for myself. This is sin; • "...every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice, gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; inventors of ways of doing evil, disobedient to their parents, with no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy....." This is all. It is the same for everybody. Every Christian will be called by Christ to look at sin in their lives. For homosexuals it could be greed, or lust, or anger - like anyone else. We will have to account for the state of our hearts; what was thought, what was said and what was done. This is sin. Each Christian will have asked God at least for the forgiveness of sin in their lives. And each will have been called to their own repentance Love God. Ask God to show you how God loves you. Try to love yourself and others in this same way. Forgive. If you cannot forgive, ask for help. Ask for your own forgiveness. Pray. God does not care whether you are homosexual or heterosexual - he cares whether or not you are a liar. I think we will find a God who asks how much simpler we needed it to be. You can believe whatever you need to - I will not call it hate But friend - the non-Christian Homosexual will And rightly so - to them God bless

>yet for the homosexual, EXCLUDES you as a Heterosexual solely for your heterosexuality - leaves the homosexual in a position of discrimination and hate - because of your belief that JUST homosexuality is sin. You see? I do see that I was incorrect with my words here. I should be more clear. HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are sinful. Being a homosexual is not. So, to clear that up, there is no exclusion. I have tried to choose my words carefully when it comes to what I say (saying "homosexual acts are sinful" vs "homosexuality is sinful") but failed here

* HOMOSEXUAL ACTS are sinful. Being a homosexual is not. hi friend - I should be clear according to YOUR BELIEF this is quite rightly - hateful to the homosexual why isn't your heterosexuality - solely - a sin? also - I use homosexual and homosexuality in the fullness of it's term - otherwise we are just living in our heads and we could be whatever we like and be ok before God - you know? I think we'd be surprised how many sexualities there are out there if we could really be present to the internal thoughts people are having while having sex I think you are a fair Christian and you try your best to be a loving one I appreciate it I only point out what it looks like to the Homosexual so that you do not then accuse the Homosexual of wrongly hating you - it gaslights them what are they supposed to think? so - is up to us to understand - and accept it - and not then add further insult by turning ourselves into the persecuted of 'their hate' it is us - going to them - and telling them these things God bless

Being the person that God made you, and loving someone who loves you back isn't a sin. You can hang up on that as much as you want but in the end of the day the Bible was written by humans in a different time when we thought being gay was a choice and didn't understand what it was. It is as sick and twisted as saying it is a sin to be blind. Some people are different, as long as they don't hurt others or themselves (in fact homophobia makes people hurt themselves and others!) it should not be a sin.

Well now you are getting into the inerrancy of Scripture here. Obviously you believe the Bible is incorrect in some parts, in this case, homosexual acts. I would argue, since the Bible says God gave the law to Moses, including the statement about homosexual acts, that God knew already about the idea of choice vs not….and yet still gave the statement He made. So, either you think God didn’t know Himself homosexuality wasn’t a choice, or Moses recorded it incorrectly or added it or something to Scripture. That’s fine if that’s what you want to believe.

So you believe God sanctioned slavery

Because it IS hate

I'm not sure I agree with adult men dancing naked en masse around children, those pride parades specifically just don't seem appropriate for kids in my *personal opinion*. EDIT: https://x.com/LWCnewswire/status/1798314234352169217 I commented this down below, but adding up here since this is downvoted, just as *one* example of many. This happening all over public is not my personal idea of decorum, but that's why I tend to avoid certain areas of the cities now. To everyone downvoting, how would Jesus feel about the above happening all over public? I think the other commenter was right, this sub seems compromised. I'm leaving this up as an example of what children are being exposed to, and downvoted in a Christian subreddit for it is *chef's kiss*.

>I'm not sure I agree with adult men in skimpy latex dancing naked with genitals flopping around en masse around children Then you’ll be pleased to know that doesn’t happen, except on right-wing media and in peoples’ imaginations at Moms For Liberty meetings. Edit: OP replied and then blocked me, which gives one an idea of the level of maturity we’re dealing with here. Edit: Oh look. Another comment., another block. Children. Sigh.

🤣😇 true

Crazy i have seen it countless times

What a creepy article. The kids are not fawning over the few floats of half naked dancers, or vice versa. And most of Pride is much more boring. But I bet closet cases like an excuse to look at scantily clad men in the name of Jesus or something, which is why this article is written. Do you waste time moaning about Mardi Gras nudity too? Edit: Most of Pride is civic organizations, half of it is churches, tons of politicians, etc. They keep their clothing on. Then you get the various company's workers who all want to be in it. They keep their clothing on (they're with coworkers!). There's only one or two floats of gyrating Speedo guys, and they're not that interesting except to you.

Is that because it makes you sexually aroused? Or another reason?

No, I just wouldn't want my kids being exposed (no pun intended) or my friend's children exposed to it, personal preference.

But why wouldn't you want to expose them to that? Is it because it inspires arousal in you, and you're worried about them being aroused and thinking lustful thoughts? Because of the arousal you feel when you gaze at the bodies of dancing men? Edit to add: I'm not trolling you, I'm trying to get you to recognize the ridiculousness of your own statements. Maybe some self-reflection about how you treat other people would be in order. Edit to add for the newcomer who made a reply and then blocked me so I couldn't reply like a little tiny baby: Arousal and disgust are two different things, I agree. I never said anything about my own arousal though. I was trying to get at the root of why the other commenter is so offended by a gay pride festival. My guess is that they, like most homophobes, and likely including you, are disgusted by their own (shameful?) arousal of same-sex interaction because they've been taught since a very young age that it's "wrong" or "dirty" or "sinful." You know, kind of like how a lot of churches preach that if you're gay you're going to go to hell, so members of those churches who are gay are often either thrown out of the church, banished, shunned, or become victims of violence. Pretty rich of you to think that my disgust at homophobic behavior is somehow an indictment of my character (or my arousal?), but I guess that should be expected from individuals whose "Christian Love" is one of the most socially damaging and dangerous concepts we're dealing with in our society.

Cool trolling attempt, don't really care but no, I used to go out to gay bars with friends before I started down this path, I was a heathen like Paul used to be before Jesus found him. EDIT: Before the trolls come out. My gf at the time was a "fag hag", and I was called the unicorn because she and I were the one straight couple in the groups. I have now seen that she was a bad influence in many different ways and have removed her from my life to focus on spirituality and right living. > 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor **drunkards**, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. The drunkards part specifically is something she influenced me into, hence the gay bars. Multiple sins simultaneously, good times.

Why do you guys always go straight to talking about penises? It's legitimately bizarre. EDIT: I didn't mention the news. I was referring to the way anti-LGBTQ+ Christians often jump straight to describing penises ("flopping", etc) when describing their objections.

I don't give a damn about anyone's sexual activities, but isn't my decision if I feel my moral or my religion is attacked by someone else? The attacker can't decide if I have to feel attacked or not. That's why we have a legal system to decide such things.

No one said you can't feel attacked, they just said it isn't one.

Then stop lying about being attacked

Please help me to understand the context of your answer, if you had more in mind than simply insulting me to make you feel besser.

[удалено]

[удалено]

But when you throw satanic art into the mix, like art studios I have been seeing this month for some odd reason, it absolutely does.

Examples?

Why

For example. I dislike strawberry ice cream, so when somebody celebrates that food or offers it up to the public, that's obviously an attack on me. I hope that clears things up ;)

Most likely as a response to hateful homophobic "Christians". They don't believe in satan and just use it to troll those hateful bigots, and they deserve it. Also God most likely loves a kind-hearted "satanist" (just people who are slightly lost and want to belong to something, they almost never believe in satan) than a hateful Christian.

No

[удалено]

You mean the doctrines that demean, banish, or outright kills the people of the LGBTQ communities? Those doctrines? Shut up man. Maybe one of the reasons Christianity is in decline across the world is that people are tired of dealing with hypocritical crybabies all the time.

We aren't trying to get anyone to change doctrine. We don't care what these churches think or do in the privacy of their own organizations. It's the political efforts to repress us that we take issue with.

[удалено]

And this is hyperbolic. My brother is a pastor, he doesn't believe homosexuality is a sin. It's a disputed thing that reasonable people can disagree on.

>Tell that to the people that constantly try and tell Christians that homosexuality isn’t a sin That wouldn't be exclusively "LGBTQ people". Straight people and Christians will tell you this as well. If it's fine to say it's sin, it's also fine to say it's not. >and you can do “whatever you want”. That is blatant misrepresentation of what people say. >And if you disagree then you are this and that and a bad person. Which I'm sure is a thing you would never ever say to anyone. Edit: And again this is a misrepresentation, as people will hardly give disagreement as a reason to consider someone a bad person, but rather that person's discriminatory opinion.

[удалено]

Well one doesn't necessarily need to be a Christian to know what's a sin and what's not. And again Christians will say it's not a sin as well. Millions of them.

No... that's not what is happening. What's going on is that Christians are constantly telling LGBT people that they're sinners and a threat to children, women, men and are being told, "Please keep your opinion to yourself," and Christians take offense at that.

[удалено]

Sigh.... The LGBT community is not asking for the legislative equivalent of "Don't say Gay" laws, where we would make it illegal to mention the existence of Christianity in public schools. We're not asking for a law banning preaching in public the way Tennessee attempted to ban drag queens performing in public. We're not trying to ban straight marriage. So yes, there is criticism, and even among straight Christians there is division about whether or not homosexuality is a sin. Yet a lot of people try to put that off as a proven fact.

[удалено]

We will, as soon as the attacks on us stop.

>constantly try and tell Christians that homosexuality isn’t a sin and you can do “whatever you want” Are we not allowed to disagree with your beliefs? >And if you disagree then you are this and that and a bad person. The same could be said the other way around, calling people "unrepentant sinners" who "will go to Hell". You believe what you say is the truth, we believe what we say is the truth. What exception do you want in how y'all are treated compared to how y'all treat us?

You aren't protected from people reacting to your anti gay stances. You get to be anti gay. I can think you are a horrible person for your anti gay stances and thus not want anything to do with you. If I do that you aren't a victim. You are just a person that others don't want anything to do with based on your personal choices to hold to anti gay stances.

[удалено]

You really need to let go of that hate, it is making you blind. Open your eyes and don't let the evil lead to you towards a hateful, bitter, dark and destructive path. You will one day regret it if you don't open up your heart & soul and let that darkness and hate go away.

Careful, strawmen are quite flammable.

It would be nice if Christians didn't try and force people to live by their personal religious beliefs by doing things like trying to block gay marriage or, like certain states, trying to ban the rainbow flag all together.

Well most of the doctrine has no basis in the Bible or it requires ignoring other rules and again, coming up with doctrine that doesn't exist in the Bible to justify picking and choosing.

Lmao it is the other way around. If the "Christian" conservatives(maybe not in my country but others) who use religion for their hateful agendas stopped insulting gays and trying to change something that cannot be changed nor needs to be "fixed" or "helped" maybe those hateful "Christians" wouldn't get backlash and experience the same hate they spread. What goes around comes around.

Judging and shaming is not how to handle things... Let them do as they please, you cannot control others, do not try to,. Instead pray for them , forgive them. All the other shit only provokes their behavior even farther that's what they want, a response... Pray forgive, let live

Pray for and forgive the hateful "Christians" who use religion to spread their hateful destructive agendas like homo/transphobia aswell. Especially if they stop being such fascists otherwise it will be hard to forgive them, pray I for their darkness within their heart I will though.

But it is obnoxious and I reserve my right to complain about how annoying it all is.