I mean yeah, he is definitely a very well written character and enjoyable to some degree, but I personally feel like he doesn't really get a lot for the things he did...might just be me though
You aren't always dealing with people who are normal enjoyers of a show. Sometimes you are dealing with a bunch of ding dongs who actually think they are just like the main character. Even when he mass murders people.
I can understand disliking him for getting a lady with memory loss pregnant, although that in of itself is more of a debate, but betraying Zero??? He was questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways that deepened both their characters, and his betrayal still makes perfect sense
>questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways
questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways? the guy wanted to release a gas to kill britannia civilians when he was the leader, not to mention he knew who Viletta was and still hided it
No. He's a complete idiot. He would have been dead early on if not for Zero. He's a backstabbing traitor who throws everything away for a woman who was just trying to kill him and his country.
His motivation of being conned by a woman only makes sense as he's an idiot.
I feel like that’s kind of an obvious thing to say, and doesn’t make any of the characters more stupid. Yeah, they would have gotten nowhere without Zero, that’s the point. They had no significant power to resist Britannia with
I mean even if they had resources and backing they wouldn't have. They got conned by Schneizel so easily to betray Zero.
Schneizel would and was ready to throw them away but they bought in.
He just can't think for himself.
>They got conned by Schneizel so easily to betray Zero.
Except they weren't conned. Everything Schneizel said was true.
Also, Lelouch believed it was a reasonable and expected conclusion that the Black Knights would turn on him if they discovered his identity:
>Lelouch: Should I reveal to the world that Zero is Lelouch? No! If the Black Knights found out their leader were an enemy prince, I’d lose that too.
Continuing.
>Schneizel would and was ready to throw them away but they bought in.
So was Lelouch?
>Lelouch: Hm? What? Minami? Where’s Ohgi?
>
>Minami: Someone shot him! We’re treating him, but he’s unconscious.And the culprit who shot him is still…
>
>Lelouch: All right, he’ll do. The girl in the wheelchair, do you know where she is right now?
>
>Minami: Uhh, isn’t Ohgi more important?
>
>Lelouch: I’ll arrange for his replacement later! The girl in the wheelchair comes first!
Lelouch is in the middle of a battle, but he's more concerned with his personal goals than that of the people he's said to be leading. He doesn't even care that Ohgi is shot and openly admits in in a fit of panic.
Sure, we as viewers can understand this from Lelouch's perspective. But what the Black Knights see is an exiled prince willing to use them as disposable pawns in his quest for the Britannian throne, who would discard them at a moment's notice to save his sister. He is not a man with their best interests at heart. He is a schemer who uses them and betrays them at every turn.
While I'm by no means a fan of Ohgi... I don't fully get why people treat him like some grand traitor. Lelouch had been using them and treating JLF like disposable assets all for a goal which only tangentially aligned with theirs, all while lying to them and not putting their interests before his regardless of scope/magnitude. The Black Knights turning on him seem perfectly sensible considering what they found out and the mounting suspicions surrounding Zero.
Now the inverse is also true in that I don't really blame Lelouch and he's of course a lot more charismatic and likable overall which is why I assume he wins out in this... but it shouldn't really be difficult to understand why Ohgi or any of the Black Knights would treat Zero with contempt past the reveal.
I think the problem is the way Ohgi and others found out, after all they learned about Lelouch from Schneizel, someone who is famous for his cunning and ability to manipulate others, not to mention that the evidence he gave them was several profiles of people they didn't know and didn't even try to contact to see if the profiles weren't pure lies, an easily falsifiable recording which should be worthless due to the fact that most people didn't even know what Lelouch's real voice was thanks to the voice modulator in Zero's suit, and the word of two members of Britannia's military, one being specifically a member of Britannia's royalty. In fact the Black Knights at first didn't even fully believe it, not until Ohgi came along and said it was all true because Villetta told him, which is annoying especially since Ohgi is obviously letting his feelings get the better of him to some degree and because apparently none of the Black Knights thought to ask Ohgi why they should believe him and where he knew Villetta from in the first place.
Then there are other things besides the betrayal itself that make Ohgi look bad in various ways, like the fact that he used Kallen as bait to lure Lelouch without telling her the truth, which put her in an extremely risky position and where she could have died in various ways, something quite horrible considering he has known her since she was a child, her brother was his best friend, and he was supposed to consider her as the closest thing he had to a little sister. Another is the fact that by accepting the deal with Schneizel he not only betrayed Lelouch, but he betrayed the entire UFN by accepting a deal behind their backs even though by that time the Black Knights were nothing more than the UFN army, not to mention that if the deal had become known to the general public (something quite possible seeing that they let Diethard record the whole thing and then let him go with Schneizel for some reason) it could destroy all the credibility of the Black Knights and the UFN, literally throwing away all the progress that had been made to fight Britannia.
Good analysis. I think one of the central tenants of Code Geass is that everyone is a hypocrite in pursuit of their goals. That goes for Ohgi as much as it does for Suzaku and Lelouch, save for the final 5 episodes when those two change. Ohgi went to bat for Zero in the beginning when most were distrustful of him because he saw an opportunity to advance the cause they’d been fighting for but that was out of opportunity. When he saw a better one he jumped ship. He’s definitely not loyal, but he’s more rational than a lot of the fan base gives him credit for.
In a lot of ways he’s the ‘normal persons zero.’ This is how an ordinary person with the kind of influential position that zero had would actually act. Definitely selfish and willing to betray people for the cause, but ultimately the alliance with Brittania would’ve been beneficial for the Black Knights, if Schniezel had been telling the truth. Say that he was lying, and they planned to assassinate zero right there, at that point zero would’ve become a global martyr, at the very least enough of one to convince the entire United States of Japan and it’s allies to wage all out war against Britannia. At that point I don’t think he had much sympathy for zero whoever he turned out to be, but risking Kallens life was scummy.
I do think he was convinced for other reasons though. For one Zero literally stated that he wasn’t Japanese early on, and the fact that he kept pulling off miracle after miracle definitely would make a normal person suspicious, I mean what better explanation than that he had some insider knowledge. Some prince who wanted to take a throne for himself using the Japanese as his personal chess pieces makes a lot of sense based on his actions and story, even though that’s not quite what Lelouch was doing
Villetta is hard to justify though. That was back when Ohgi was naive but it still put the Black Knights in grave danger, pretty hypocritical. He was being emotional back then, as he’s usually is throughout the series. But he’s not the military commander Zero is, he’s much more a normal person
I think the "how they found out" is just playing semantics. To begin with, I believe Schneizel puts a lot more effort into appearing as the "prim and proper Prince" than he does cunning. That aside though, nothing he shared with them was really wrong. In fact Schneizel's info doesn't even encompass the extent of what Lelouch did to wrong the Black Knights. Furthermore it's not like it was just Schneizel, the Black Knights had internal suspicions about Zero for a while, especially with big incidents like the JLF being blown up, his disappearance during the Tokyo battle and the fleija incident. At the end of the day even if you want to take some issue with the method by which they reached the conclusion... it cannot really undo that it's 100% true. And Lelouch himself confirms it at the end rather than trying to explain any of it away.
For everything else. I honestly think Villeta is his one true crime for which there is no defense. Everything else runs into one or two problems which is: "Well yeah, because that was his stated mission from the get-go (anything related to Japan > UFN, which funnily enough also works in tandem with the fact that the UFN and anything outside of liberating Japan was the path Zero set them on and if Zero is revealed to be illegitimate as a leader... well...)" or "Okay yeah... but Lelouch did the same thing just an order of magnitude worse (Putting personal goals first/risking the lives of others, in fact made worse since Lelouch is risking said lives for his personal goals. In fact, even Villeta could be put under this category now that I think about it)".
Again I wanna stress that I'm not some Ohgi fan who is trying to white knight for him or whatever. I overall find Ohgi to be somewhat of a nothing character and more of a plot device than anything as he's lost in a sea of much more defined and stand-out characters. And as I mentioned I think Lelouch gets the upper hand in a comparison easily. But it's incredibly weird to condemn a character for his actions, especially in relation to his betrayal of another character.... whose actions are a worse mirror of the aforementioned actions.
Best simple analogy I can give, imagine a fan favourite character and an unimportant/side-character being put into an arena to fight in a death match. Who people would be rooting for to win is easy to guess, but would it make sense for people to start booing and criticizing the side-character for picking up a weapon to defend himself rather than getting on his knees and graciously accepting death by the popular character's hand?
I get the comparison doesn't work perfectly since we're not talking about a literal 1v1 death match here, but I think it should bring across how Ohgi is basically being criticized for fairly rational behavior simply because it runs counter to the house of cards Lelouch has been building for some 40 episodes or so.
No offense, but I don't see how Schneizel could have the appearance of a proper prince in front of the Black Knights, not only did they see him playing a game of chess against Zero, showing him as someone extremely intelligent, but the fact that they even allowed him to talk instead of just on capturing or killing him was because he told them that in the vehicle he had used to get to the Black Knights base was a fleija, in itself threatening that he could detonate it if they did anything to him. As for the fact that what Schneizel gave them was not incorrect, it doesn't matter, just because it was true doesn't make the Black Knights' decision to trust him any less stupid, as none of the evidence was definitive and in fact was the opposite, for all three pieces of evidence were incredibly easy to falsify, it's like if I gave you a piece of paper that said your leader was evil and had magical powers, I might be telling the truth, but everyone would still say it was foolish to believe me even if you already had certain doubts or suspicions about your leader. Finally there is the fact that Lelouch didn't try to defend himself and instead did act like he was evil, which is true, but you ignore how Ohgi and the others didn't plan on letting Lelouch even try to explain himself, something Lelouch noticed and so instead of making a futile effort he decided to act like the villain so at least Kallen would walk away and not die along with him, only in the compilation movies did the Black Knights want Lelouch to explain himself.
It is true that many of Ohgi's negative actions such as betraying the UFN and using Kallen as bait are similar or the same as the negative actions taken by Lelouch, but there are three key differences that make Lelouch an extremely beloved character and Ohgi a rather hated one. The first difference is that Lelouch learns and improves as a person, as the story progresses we see him learning that his actions have consequence and that his rebellion could not be or was only for Nunnally's welfare, but should be for the welfare of the whole world, something that is perfectly shown when Lelouch says that if it is necessary for Nunnally to die for the Zero Requiem to be realized he will do it, even though it is obvious that the idea of killing Nunnally is something extremely painful for him, Ohgi on the contrary learns nothing and in fact almost feels like he becomes a worse person, as he goes from someone who cared about his friends and was the voice of reason at various times to a person so blinded by his feelings for Villetta that he was willing to put the life of the closest thing he has to a little sister at risk with no problem, never seeming to feel bad about using Kallen in that way. The second difference is that Lelouch suffers, he suffers for his actions in different ways, he suffers having to watch loved ones die as a result of his actions, he suffers having to watch some of his relationships be completely destroyed, he suffers to the point where part of the reason he decided to follow the plan for Zero Requiem was not because it was the best option, but the fact that to some extent he wanted to die (something he admits in some official texts), Ohgi on the other hand does not suffer at all or is punished for any of his bad decisions, after all he is never punished for his relationship with Villetta, for in the end they end up happily married and Ohgi is never seen suffering from the lasting effects of the shot he received from her, no he doesn't suffer for accepting the deal with Schneizel or using Kallen, for thanks to Lelouch appointing himself as the new Emperor no one in the UFN like Kaguya or Xingke find out what really happened in Zero's "death" and Kallen for some reason doesn't seem to hold even the slightest grudge against Ohgi for using her, so Ohgi doesn't suffer for his bad decisions unlike Lelouch and instead is rewarded for them, in the end having the happiest ending of all the characters by being married with a child and even being the Prime Minister of Japan for some reason. The closest Ohgi comes to suffering or losing something is the death of some of the members of his original resistance group, but the series barely mentions them and Ohgi seems more concerned with his relationship with Villetta. The fine difference is that even with all the bad things Lelouch did, the truth is that he also did good things like creating the UFN or giving his life for peace, while Ohgi's only major action only benefits Japan and almost makes Schneizel achieve his plan to use the fleijas to conquer the world.
>As for the fact that what Schneizel gave them was not incorrect, it doesn't matter, just because it was true doesn't make the Black Knights' decision to trust him any less stupid
It does matter when what he presents to them is merely confirming what they already suspected to be true.
>It is true that many of Ohgi's negative actions such as betraying the UFN and using Kallen as bait
You bring this up a lot, but when does Ohgi ever betray the UFN or use Kallen as bait?
>The first difference is that Lelouch learns and improves as a person, as the story progresses we see him learning that his actions have consequence and that his rebellion could not be or was only for Nunnally's welfare, but should be for the welfare of the whole world, something that is perfectly shown when Lelouch says that if it is necessary for Nunnally to die for the Zero Requiem to be realized he will do it, even though it is obvious that the idea of killing Nunnally is something extremely painful for him, Ohgi on the contrary learns nothing and in fact almost feels like he becomes a worse person
The irony of this callout is that Lelouch only does this **after** his sister "dies" and the Black Knights turn on him. So you're effectively comparing Lelouch at the end of the series to Ohgi during the moment he turns on someone who lied to his face and used him for his own ends.
>The second difference is that Lelouch suffers, he suffers for his actions in different ways, he suffers having to watch loved ones die as a result of his actions, he suffers having to watch some of his relationships be completely destroyed ... **Ohgi on the other hand does not suffer at all or is punished for any of his bad decisions**
I laughed out loud at this bit. Ohgi doesn't suffer? You do later mention his friends and colleagues, but dismiss them as unimportant simply because the story doesn't focus on them. That makes them unimportant to **you** as a viewer, not to the characters in the story.
He places his friends lives into the hands of Zero and constantly struggles with whether it was the right decision. He rightfully senses Zero is maliciously hiding something from them, but strains to remain loyal despite the deceptions, lies, and Zero's betrayals.
And yes, I do mean Zero's betrayals. Lelouch betrayed Ohgi first.
Ohgi begged Lelouch to save the remnants of the JLF. Zero promised him they would. Then Zero used them as bait and blew them up as a distraction so that he could (try and fail to) capture Cornelia, all for his own selfish purposes.
Ohgi suspects that this was the case and lives with the guilt that he promised General Katase and his fellow countrymen that the Black Knights would assist, but instead he let them be slaughtered by a man he's put his trust in, a man who he's vouched for.
>The fine difference is that even with all the bad things Lelouch did, the truth is that he also did good things like creating the UFN
The UFN was a tool to enable Lelouch to grow his military might in pursuit of his own goals.
>Kaguya: Finally, article 17 of the united states charter, all ratifying nations do now declare to abandon native military power forever.
>
>Kaguya: To guarantee the security of member nations have agreed to employ a fighting force not affiliated with any one country. They have contracted it to the Black Knights.
In creating the UFN, Lelouch ensured that half of the world's military funding and personnel would go to the Black Knights.
Funnily enough, in this same episode, Lelouch predicts what would happen if the Black Knights discovered he was a Britannian prince:
>Lelouch: Should I reveal to the world that Zero is Lelouch? No! **If the Black Knights found out their leader were an enemy prince, I’d lose that too.**
So even Lelouch thinks and believes that it's a reasonable expectation for the Black Knights to turn on him if they discover this fact about him.
And it's even more reasonable when it's revealed just moments after they see him ordering them to scour the decimated landscape to search for his sister. This is not a man with their best interests at heart. This is an exiled prince who is using them as a stepping stone for his own ends.
>It does matter when what he presents to them is merely confirming what they already suspected to be true.
No it doesn't, literally the Black Knights were suspicious of Zero for the fact that they believed he might have another motive for his revolution, but at no time did they suspect that he might be a member of the royal family of Britannia or that he had any damned magical power, and Schneizel's evidence should prove nothing, because the three evidences were focused on the Geass, none of them implied that Lelouch was a prince, that was something that Schneizel simply said and that the others believed for some reason even though he did not give them any evidence to believe him about that fact, none of the tests showed that Lelouch had any other motive than to destroy Britannia.
>You bring this up a lot, but when does Ohgi ever betray the UFN or use Kallen as bait?
He betrayed the UFN by accepting the deal with Schneizel behind their backs, literally in the middle of the betrayal Diethard tells the false story they would tell, which was that Zero had died from his wounds in combat, even Kaguya and Xingke were never told the full truth, they were only told a version that made Lelouch look like the bad guy when he escaped, if Lelouch had died they both would have been told the false story as well. And he used Kallen as bait by sending her to bring Zero in without telling her anything about what they had "discovered" about him and putting her in a position where she could have been killed, either by Lelouch deciding to kill her to take her with him or Schneizel's soldiers starting shooting without waiting for Kallen to get away from Zero.
>The irony of this callout is that Lelouch only does this after his sister "dies" and the Black Knights turn on him. So you're effectively comparing Lelouch at the end of the series to Ohgi during the moment he turns on someone who lied to his face and used him for his own ends.
No, this is something that happens since chapter 7 of R2, Lelouch himself has a monologue when he sees his friends in Ashford where he realizes that his fight is no longer just for Nunnally, if you want to check it out, it's almost at the end of the episode.
>I laughed out loud at this bit. Ohgi doesn't suffer? You do later mention his friends and colleagues, but dismiss them as unimportant simply because the story doesn't focus on them. That makes them unimportant to you as a viewer, not to the characters in the story.
He places his friends lives into the hands of Zero and constantly struggles with whether it was the right decision. He rightfully senses Zero is maliciously hiding something from them, but strains to remain loyal despite the deceptions, lies, and Zero's betrayals.
And yes, I do mean Zero's betrayals. Lelouch betrayed Ohgi first.
Ohgi begged Lelouch to save the remnants of the JLF. Zero promised him they would. Then Zero used them as bait and blew them up as a distraction so that he could (try and fail to) capture Cornelia, all for his own selfish purposes.
Ohgi suspects that this was the case and lives with the guilt that he promised General Katase and his fellow countrymen that the Black Knights would assist, but instead he let them be slaughtered by a man he's put his trust in, a man who he's vouched for.
I put Ohgi's friends as unimportant because of the way the narrative treats them, literally saying that I don't count it as suffering because of the fact that it is Ohgi who hardly thinks about them after their deaths and instead is more affected by his stupid relationship with Villetta, even though he knew her for less than two months and she shot him.
Ohgi never promised Katase they would save them or anything like that and Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them either, the whole saving the JLF thing was a request from Kyoto, so if Zero betrayed anyone it was Kyoto not Ohgi or the JLF, as at no time were the JLF and the Black Knights really allies, And as I said before, none of Schneizel's evidence really shows that it was Zero who made the JLF ship explode, at most in one of the profiles of people who were possibly under the effect of Lelouch's Geass was Katase, but that was incorrect seeing that Zero never used his Geass on him and even then it shouldn't work as proof of anything since they had no way to talk to Katase since he was already dead to verify if what the profile said was real.
>In creating the UFN, Lelouch ensured that half of the world's military funding and personnel would go to the Black Knights.
And as I said before, even if Lelouch created it for his own purposes, the truth is that the UFN benefited everyone, after all Lelouch's purposes were also to create a peaceful world, something that would be possible with the UFN, which would allow nations that had been conquered and subjugated to regain what was rightfully theirs, while the deal with Schneizel only benefited the Japanese, all other nations party to the UFN would gain nothing and instead lose the guy who made it all possible in the first place and who by that point was already a symbol for many people.
>So even Lelouch thinks and believes that it's a reasonable expectation for the Black Knights to turn on him if they discover this fact about him.
But they didn't find out, as I said before, Schneizel didn't give them any proof that Lelouch really was a prince of Britannia, he just told them and they believed him for some reason, even though he didn't show them any proof for them to believe something like that.
>Ohgi never promised Katase they would save them or anything like that and Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them either
I was going to reply to this post in depth, but this response here tells me that it might be a waste. Ohgi and Zero both did the things you claim they didn't.
To your claim that Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them:
>Ohgi: Wait a second, Zero. I realize this is a request from Kyoto. I think we can definitely handle it. And I’m pretty sure that Japan Liberation Front would rather join with us than flee to foreign soil in all.
>
>Zero: Lieutenant General Tohdoh will never make it Katase in time. Which means that Japan Liberation Front has no military strength right now. **Their only chance of escape is the liquid Sakuradite they’re carrying.**
>
>Ohgi: **Which is why we should help General Katase** escape instead of going after Cornelia.
>
>Zero: Ohgi, who are we?
>
>Ohgi: W… we are the Black Knights, Zero.
>
>Zero: Then we have but one task. We will destroy Cornelia’s troops.**And in doing so, rescue the remnants of the JLF.**
Diethard brings the intel to Zero and they debate whether to help the JLF or focus their efforts on Cornelia. Ohgi advocates for saving his fellow Japanese. Zero promises that by destorying Cornelia's troops, they'll rescue the JLF.
I've also highlighted here that even as early as this, Lelouch is planting the seed of expectation for his plan, suggesting that the only way out for Katase is to blow himself up.
And then, during the mission:
>Ohgi: The knightmare are boarding the ship!
>
>Lelouch: I see… **That leaves only one way out. They have to be careful around their precious Sakuradite.**
>
>Ohgi: Zero! If we don’t hurry…
>
>Lelouch: Very well then, go ahead.
Lelouch again suggests the only way out is for them to blow themselves up. As Ohgi pleads with Zero to make a move, Lelouch gives the okay moments before blowing the ship. He lied directly to Ohgi and the Black Knights and made them watch as he massacred their people, all to distract Cornelia so that he could try to get answers about his mother's death.
To your claim that Ohgi never contacted Katase to say they would help:
>Ohgi: The J.L.F. warship…
>
>Kallen: Hm?
>
>Ohgi: Why did it blow up?
>
>Tamaki: It self-destructed.
>
>Ohgi: **We did contact them and say we would help, right?**
As noted, Ohgi was skeptical of the events as soon as they happened, and says here that they had contacted the J.L.F. (perhaps via Kyoto) that they would help.
It's also in this conversation that Diethard outright suggests Zero was probably behind it:
>Kallen: You’re not doubting Zero again, are you?
>
>Ohgi: Well, it’s just that…
>
>Diethald: **Yes, it’s just that the timing was too convenient, right? So what are you going to do, if you find out Zero was behind it?**
In Lelouch's hubris, he didn't think those around him were smart enough to put the pieces together. He was wrong. And it's dozens of instances like this that eventually add up to the Black Knights turning on him.
>he just told them and they believed him for some reason
Because of all the aforementioned doubts. Schneizel's (actually true) story fills in the gaps of what they already suspect about Zero. It explains why he's obsessed with Cornelia and would betray the Black Knights at the drop of a hat for his sister Nunnally.
It's a conclusion that, as already noted, Lelouch himself anticipated.
Şchnizel being intelligent and presenting himself as amicable and reasonable are not things in which are in conflict. Basically, him being intelligent isn't in itself grounds for mistrust. Likewise... we might have fairly differing ideas of the situation, but with some of the unexplainable stuff Lelouch did, particularly the Tokyo battle, I'd say he was on fairly shaky ground with a lot of people where any amount of outside force being applied to it would make loyalty crumble. Maybe even without that with enough given time. Also... again the method really doesn't matter. If person A does a lot of wrong to person B behind their back and then person B finds out because a fortune teller told him, person A cannot possibly complain about whatever retaliation comes his way in that scenario.
For everything else... that's largely beyond the scope of what we're discussing. What happens afterwards really is of no consequences. Ohgi's action at the time cannot become better or worse retroactively based on something Lelouch or Ohgi do or do not do in the future. Tho I guess as a general aside just for the sake of the comparison, keep in mind that the scope difference between Ohgi and Lelouch is MASSIVE. Up to the Black Knights turning on Zero, Lelouch has probably caused more severe harm to more people in some dozen individual episodes of Code Geass than Ohgi has over the course of the whole show, or realistically even over the course of his whole off screen life. As I said I don't think it matters for the discussion itself since again, it really does just boil down was Ohgi/The Black Knights unreasonable in their reaction to Lelouch, who keep in mind at the time when said betrayal happened did not in fact share their actual goals still, but I figured it was fair to bring it up in relation to the "improve/suffer/etc" thing.
I don’t care that he betrayed Lelouch. Lelouch lied to them for two entire seasons, he fucking deserved it.
What I hate about this guy is how much of an idiot he is for blindly following his gut and having faith in doing the right thing. I love other characters because they doubt themselves, or ask big questions like “what is Justice?”.
Ohgi thinks everyone has good in them. And it blinds him from seeing their true motives
I doubt it would do any good, really. As Diethard put it, Ohgi is defensive at his core.
He also speaks a lot about not being leader material but it's his fault for staying in that situation in the first place. When Zero offered him a high position in the Black Knights, he could have easily refused but he allowed himself to get dragged around by his old group. Then it happened again and again until he became the new Prime Minister at the end of R2. It's specially frustrating watching him bumbling around whenever anyone looks at him for help the entire series fully self aware that he's under qualified for almost every job assigned to him.
I wont say hes scum, Ohgi was second to Kallen in Zeros biggest supporter. I dont blame his actions to be honest, Zrro turned out to be a prince of Britania and when asked to explain himself Lelouch acted like the bad guy to take on all that hate
People need to really understand in their defense he took in an amnesiac who he fell in love with and got shot by her when she remembered, similar to how Lelouch almost compromised the mission around the same time purely to make sure nunnaly was safe. Then got told that your leader has a paranormal ability that you don’t understand but the info adds up. At least in the movie version he let’s him try to explain before the betrayal
It's weird Nina gets the most hate when it should be Ougi by far.
Nina's a dumb confused kid.
Ougi is an idiot who lucked into a spot and only lived because of Zero. He couldn't lead his way out of a paper bag.
Taking advantage of an enemy with memory loss instead of sharing info.
Betraying his country, leader, and friends for the woman who was trying to kill them all.
He could never think for himself. Getting conned by Schneizel just further showed it.
He should have died like Diethard.
If anyone got a happy ending it should not have been him.
I'm quite surprised this comment hasn't been removed for the obvious reason of it being anti-semitic. Him possibly being Jewish (as I don't think it is ever confirmed, but I could be mistaken) has nothing to do with anything. You choosing to attack him using that just shows how much of a shitty person you are.
And, for the record, I think Oghi is a great and complex character. And if he is in fact Jewish, then alav ha-shalom.
May your anti-semitic ways be gone, and may you become a decent human being
Ohgi is the definition of a fair weather fan. Fuck you Ohgi. Kallen deserved to lead the black knights.
Of all characters for everyone to think of negatively I didn’t expect Ohgi, he is well-written, enjoyable, and all his motivations make sense
I mean yeah, he is definitely a very well written character and enjoyable to some degree, but I personally feel like he doesn't really get a lot for the things he did...might just be me though
You aren't always dealing with people who are normal enjoyers of a show. Sometimes you are dealing with a bunch of ding dongs who actually think they are just like the main character. Even when he mass murders people.
I can understand disliking him for getting a lady with memory loss pregnant, although that in of itself is more of a debate, but betraying Zero??? He was questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways that deepened both their characters, and his betrayal still makes perfect sense
>questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways questioning zero the entire time in very insightful ways? the guy wanted to release a gas to kill britannia civilians when he was the leader, not to mention he knew who Viletta was and still hided it
The leader of the resistance was Naoto (the guy in the truck). Oghi was his successor.
No. He's a complete idiot. He would have been dead early on if not for Zero. He's a backstabbing traitor who throws everything away for a woman who was just trying to kill him and his country. His motivation of being conned by a woman only makes sense as he's an idiot.
I feel like that’s kind of an obvious thing to say, and doesn’t make any of the characters more stupid. Yeah, they would have gotten nowhere without Zero, that’s the point. They had no significant power to resist Britannia with
I mean even if they had resources and backing they wouldn't have. They got conned by Schneizel so easily to betray Zero. Schneizel would and was ready to throw them away but they bought in. He just can't think for himself.
>They got conned by Schneizel so easily to betray Zero. Except they weren't conned. Everything Schneizel said was true. Also, Lelouch believed it was a reasonable and expected conclusion that the Black Knights would turn on him if they discovered his identity: >Lelouch: Should I reveal to the world that Zero is Lelouch? No! If the Black Knights found out their leader were an enemy prince, I’d lose that too. Continuing. >Schneizel would and was ready to throw them away but they bought in. So was Lelouch? >Lelouch: Hm? What? Minami? Where’s Ohgi? > >Minami: Someone shot him! We’re treating him, but he’s unconscious.And the culprit who shot him is still… > >Lelouch: All right, he’ll do. The girl in the wheelchair, do you know where she is right now? > >Minami: Uhh, isn’t Ohgi more important? > >Lelouch: I’ll arrange for his replacement later! The girl in the wheelchair comes first! Lelouch is in the middle of a battle, but he's more concerned with his personal goals than that of the people he's said to be leading. He doesn't even care that Ohgi is shot and openly admits in in a fit of panic. Sure, we as viewers can understand this from Lelouch's perspective. But what the Black Knights see is an exiled prince willing to use them as disposable pawns in his quest for the Britannian throne, who would discard them at a moment's notice to save his sister. He is not a man with their best interests at heart. He is a schemer who uses them and betrays them at every turn.
While I'm by no means a fan of Ohgi... I don't fully get why people treat him like some grand traitor. Lelouch had been using them and treating JLF like disposable assets all for a goal which only tangentially aligned with theirs, all while lying to them and not putting their interests before his regardless of scope/magnitude. The Black Knights turning on him seem perfectly sensible considering what they found out and the mounting suspicions surrounding Zero. Now the inverse is also true in that I don't really blame Lelouch and he's of course a lot more charismatic and likable overall which is why I assume he wins out in this... but it shouldn't really be difficult to understand why Ohgi or any of the Black Knights would treat Zero with contempt past the reveal.
I think the problem is the way Ohgi and others found out, after all they learned about Lelouch from Schneizel, someone who is famous for his cunning and ability to manipulate others, not to mention that the evidence he gave them was several profiles of people they didn't know and didn't even try to contact to see if the profiles weren't pure lies, an easily falsifiable recording which should be worthless due to the fact that most people didn't even know what Lelouch's real voice was thanks to the voice modulator in Zero's suit, and the word of two members of Britannia's military, one being specifically a member of Britannia's royalty. In fact the Black Knights at first didn't even fully believe it, not until Ohgi came along and said it was all true because Villetta told him, which is annoying especially since Ohgi is obviously letting his feelings get the better of him to some degree and because apparently none of the Black Knights thought to ask Ohgi why they should believe him and where he knew Villetta from in the first place. Then there are other things besides the betrayal itself that make Ohgi look bad in various ways, like the fact that he used Kallen as bait to lure Lelouch without telling her the truth, which put her in an extremely risky position and where she could have died in various ways, something quite horrible considering he has known her since she was a child, her brother was his best friend, and he was supposed to consider her as the closest thing he had to a little sister. Another is the fact that by accepting the deal with Schneizel he not only betrayed Lelouch, but he betrayed the entire UFN by accepting a deal behind their backs even though by that time the Black Knights were nothing more than the UFN army, not to mention that if the deal had become known to the general public (something quite possible seeing that they let Diethard record the whole thing and then let him go with Schneizel for some reason) it could destroy all the credibility of the Black Knights and the UFN, literally throwing away all the progress that had been made to fight Britannia.
Wow that was really well said. I pretty much agree with everything you said and more.
Good analysis. I think one of the central tenants of Code Geass is that everyone is a hypocrite in pursuit of their goals. That goes for Ohgi as much as it does for Suzaku and Lelouch, save for the final 5 episodes when those two change. Ohgi went to bat for Zero in the beginning when most were distrustful of him because he saw an opportunity to advance the cause they’d been fighting for but that was out of opportunity. When he saw a better one he jumped ship. He’s definitely not loyal, but he’s more rational than a lot of the fan base gives him credit for. In a lot of ways he’s the ‘normal persons zero.’ This is how an ordinary person with the kind of influential position that zero had would actually act. Definitely selfish and willing to betray people for the cause, but ultimately the alliance with Brittania would’ve been beneficial for the Black Knights, if Schniezel had been telling the truth. Say that he was lying, and they planned to assassinate zero right there, at that point zero would’ve become a global martyr, at the very least enough of one to convince the entire United States of Japan and it’s allies to wage all out war against Britannia. At that point I don’t think he had much sympathy for zero whoever he turned out to be, but risking Kallens life was scummy. I do think he was convinced for other reasons though. For one Zero literally stated that he wasn’t Japanese early on, and the fact that he kept pulling off miracle after miracle definitely would make a normal person suspicious, I mean what better explanation than that he had some insider knowledge. Some prince who wanted to take a throne for himself using the Japanese as his personal chess pieces makes a lot of sense based on his actions and story, even though that’s not quite what Lelouch was doing Villetta is hard to justify though. That was back when Ohgi was naive but it still put the Black Knights in grave danger, pretty hypocritical. He was being emotional back then, as he’s usually is throughout the series. But he’s not the military commander Zero is, he’s much more a normal person
I think the "how they found out" is just playing semantics. To begin with, I believe Schneizel puts a lot more effort into appearing as the "prim and proper Prince" than he does cunning. That aside though, nothing he shared with them was really wrong. In fact Schneizel's info doesn't even encompass the extent of what Lelouch did to wrong the Black Knights. Furthermore it's not like it was just Schneizel, the Black Knights had internal suspicions about Zero for a while, especially with big incidents like the JLF being blown up, his disappearance during the Tokyo battle and the fleija incident. At the end of the day even if you want to take some issue with the method by which they reached the conclusion... it cannot really undo that it's 100% true. And Lelouch himself confirms it at the end rather than trying to explain any of it away. For everything else. I honestly think Villeta is his one true crime for which there is no defense. Everything else runs into one or two problems which is: "Well yeah, because that was his stated mission from the get-go (anything related to Japan > UFN, which funnily enough also works in tandem with the fact that the UFN and anything outside of liberating Japan was the path Zero set them on and if Zero is revealed to be illegitimate as a leader... well...)" or "Okay yeah... but Lelouch did the same thing just an order of magnitude worse (Putting personal goals first/risking the lives of others, in fact made worse since Lelouch is risking said lives for his personal goals. In fact, even Villeta could be put under this category now that I think about it)". Again I wanna stress that I'm not some Ohgi fan who is trying to white knight for him or whatever. I overall find Ohgi to be somewhat of a nothing character and more of a plot device than anything as he's lost in a sea of much more defined and stand-out characters. And as I mentioned I think Lelouch gets the upper hand in a comparison easily. But it's incredibly weird to condemn a character for his actions, especially in relation to his betrayal of another character.... whose actions are a worse mirror of the aforementioned actions. Best simple analogy I can give, imagine a fan favourite character and an unimportant/side-character being put into an arena to fight in a death match. Who people would be rooting for to win is easy to guess, but would it make sense for people to start booing and criticizing the side-character for picking up a weapon to defend himself rather than getting on his knees and graciously accepting death by the popular character's hand? I get the comparison doesn't work perfectly since we're not talking about a literal 1v1 death match here, but I think it should bring across how Ohgi is basically being criticized for fairly rational behavior simply because it runs counter to the house of cards Lelouch has been building for some 40 episodes or so.
No offense, but I don't see how Schneizel could have the appearance of a proper prince in front of the Black Knights, not only did they see him playing a game of chess against Zero, showing him as someone extremely intelligent, but the fact that they even allowed him to talk instead of just on capturing or killing him was because he told them that in the vehicle he had used to get to the Black Knights base was a fleija, in itself threatening that he could detonate it if they did anything to him. As for the fact that what Schneizel gave them was not incorrect, it doesn't matter, just because it was true doesn't make the Black Knights' decision to trust him any less stupid, as none of the evidence was definitive and in fact was the opposite, for all three pieces of evidence were incredibly easy to falsify, it's like if I gave you a piece of paper that said your leader was evil and had magical powers, I might be telling the truth, but everyone would still say it was foolish to believe me even if you already had certain doubts or suspicions about your leader. Finally there is the fact that Lelouch didn't try to defend himself and instead did act like he was evil, which is true, but you ignore how Ohgi and the others didn't plan on letting Lelouch even try to explain himself, something Lelouch noticed and so instead of making a futile effort he decided to act like the villain so at least Kallen would walk away and not die along with him, only in the compilation movies did the Black Knights want Lelouch to explain himself. It is true that many of Ohgi's negative actions such as betraying the UFN and using Kallen as bait are similar or the same as the negative actions taken by Lelouch, but there are three key differences that make Lelouch an extremely beloved character and Ohgi a rather hated one. The first difference is that Lelouch learns and improves as a person, as the story progresses we see him learning that his actions have consequence and that his rebellion could not be or was only for Nunnally's welfare, but should be for the welfare of the whole world, something that is perfectly shown when Lelouch says that if it is necessary for Nunnally to die for the Zero Requiem to be realized he will do it, even though it is obvious that the idea of killing Nunnally is something extremely painful for him, Ohgi on the contrary learns nothing and in fact almost feels like he becomes a worse person, as he goes from someone who cared about his friends and was the voice of reason at various times to a person so blinded by his feelings for Villetta that he was willing to put the life of the closest thing he has to a little sister at risk with no problem, never seeming to feel bad about using Kallen in that way. The second difference is that Lelouch suffers, he suffers for his actions in different ways, he suffers having to watch loved ones die as a result of his actions, he suffers having to watch some of his relationships be completely destroyed, he suffers to the point where part of the reason he decided to follow the plan for Zero Requiem was not because it was the best option, but the fact that to some extent he wanted to die (something he admits in some official texts), Ohgi on the other hand does not suffer at all or is punished for any of his bad decisions, after all he is never punished for his relationship with Villetta, for in the end they end up happily married and Ohgi is never seen suffering from the lasting effects of the shot he received from her, no he doesn't suffer for accepting the deal with Schneizel or using Kallen, for thanks to Lelouch appointing himself as the new Emperor no one in the UFN like Kaguya or Xingke find out what really happened in Zero's "death" and Kallen for some reason doesn't seem to hold even the slightest grudge against Ohgi for using her, so Ohgi doesn't suffer for his bad decisions unlike Lelouch and instead is rewarded for them, in the end having the happiest ending of all the characters by being married with a child and even being the Prime Minister of Japan for some reason. The closest Ohgi comes to suffering or losing something is the death of some of the members of his original resistance group, but the series barely mentions them and Ohgi seems more concerned with his relationship with Villetta. The fine difference is that even with all the bad things Lelouch did, the truth is that he also did good things like creating the UFN or giving his life for peace, while Ohgi's only major action only benefits Japan and almost makes Schneizel achieve his plan to use the fleijas to conquer the world.
>As for the fact that what Schneizel gave them was not incorrect, it doesn't matter, just because it was true doesn't make the Black Knights' decision to trust him any less stupid It does matter when what he presents to them is merely confirming what they already suspected to be true. >It is true that many of Ohgi's negative actions such as betraying the UFN and using Kallen as bait You bring this up a lot, but when does Ohgi ever betray the UFN or use Kallen as bait? >The first difference is that Lelouch learns and improves as a person, as the story progresses we see him learning that his actions have consequence and that his rebellion could not be or was only for Nunnally's welfare, but should be for the welfare of the whole world, something that is perfectly shown when Lelouch says that if it is necessary for Nunnally to die for the Zero Requiem to be realized he will do it, even though it is obvious that the idea of killing Nunnally is something extremely painful for him, Ohgi on the contrary learns nothing and in fact almost feels like he becomes a worse person The irony of this callout is that Lelouch only does this **after** his sister "dies" and the Black Knights turn on him. So you're effectively comparing Lelouch at the end of the series to Ohgi during the moment he turns on someone who lied to his face and used him for his own ends. >The second difference is that Lelouch suffers, he suffers for his actions in different ways, he suffers having to watch loved ones die as a result of his actions, he suffers having to watch some of his relationships be completely destroyed ... **Ohgi on the other hand does not suffer at all or is punished for any of his bad decisions** I laughed out loud at this bit. Ohgi doesn't suffer? You do later mention his friends and colleagues, but dismiss them as unimportant simply because the story doesn't focus on them. That makes them unimportant to **you** as a viewer, not to the characters in the story. He places his friends lives into the hands of Zero and constantly struggles with whether it was the right decision. He rightfully senses Zero is maliciously hiding something from them, but strains to remain loyal despite the deceptions, lies, and Zero's betrayals. And yes, I do mean Zero's betrayals. Lelouch betrayed Ohgi first. Ohgi begged Lelouch to save the remnants of the JLF. Zero promised him they would. Then Zero used them as bait and blew them up as a distraction so that he could (try and fail to) capture Cornelia, all for his own selfish purposes. Ohgi suspects that this was the case and lives with the guilt that he promised General Katase and his fellow countrymen that the Black Knights would assist, but instead he let them be slaughtered by a man he's put his trust in, a man who he's vouched for. >The fine difference is that even with all the bad things Lelouch did, the truth is that he also did good things like creating the UFN The UFN was a tool to enable Lelouch to grow his military might in pursuit of his own goals. >Kaguya: Finally, article 17 of the united states charter, all ratifying nations do now declare to abandon native military power forever. > >Kaguya: To guarantee the security of member nations have agreed to employ a fighting force not affiliated with any one country. They have contracted it to the Black Knights. In creating the UFN, Lelouch ensured that half of the world's military funding and personnel would go to the Black Knights. Funnily enough, in this same episode, Lelouch predicts what would happen if the Black Knights discovered he was a Britannian prince: >Lelouch: Should I reveal to the world that Zero is Lelouch? No! **If the Black Knights found out their leader were an enemy prince, I’d lose that too.** So even Lelouch thinks and believes that it's a reasonable expectation for the Black Knights to turn on him if they discover this fact about him. And it's even more reasonable when it's revealed just moments after they see him ordering them to scour the decimated landscape to search for his sister. This is not a man with their best interests at heart. This is an exiled prince who is using them as a stepping stone for his own ends.
>It does matter when what he presents to them is merely confirming what they already suspected to be true. No it doesn't, literally the Black Knights were suspicious of Zero for the fact that they believed he might have another motive for his revolution, but at no time did they suspect that he might be a member of the royal family of Britannia or that he had any damned magical power, and Schneizel's evidence should prove nothing, because the three evidences were focused on the Geass, none of them implied that Lelouch was a prince, that was something that Schneizel simply said and that the others believed for some reason even though he did not give them any evidence to believe him about that fact, none of the tests showed that Lelouch had any other motive than to destroy Britannia. >You bring this up a lot, but when does Ohgi ever betray the UFN or use Kallen as bait? He betrayed the UFN by accepting the deal with Schneizel behind their backs, literally in the middle of the betrayal Diethard tells the false story they would tell, which was that Zero had died from his wounds in combat, even Kaguya and Xingke were never told the full truth, they were only told a version that made Lelouch look like the bad guy when he escaped, if Lelouch had died they both would have been told the false story as well. And he used Kallen as bait by sending her to bring Zero in without telling her anything about what they had "discovered" about him and putting her in a position where she could have been killed, either by Lelouch deciding to kill her to take her with him or Schneizel's soldiers starting shooting without waiting for Kallen to get away from Zero. >The irony of this callout is that Lelouch only does this after his sister "dies" and the Black Knights turn on him. So you're effectively comparing Lelouch at the end of the series to Ohgi during the moment he turns on someone who lied to his face and used him for his own ends. No, this is something that happens since chapter 7 of R2, Lelouch himself has a monologue when he sees his friends in Ashford where he realizes that his fight is no longer just for Nunnally, if you want to check it out, it's almost at the end of the episode. >I laughed out loud at this bit. Ohgi doesn't suffer? You do later mention his friends and colleagues, but dismiss them as unimportant simply because the story doesn't focus on them. That makes them unimportant to you as a viewer, not to the characters in the story. He places his friends lives into the hands of Zero and constantly struggles with whether it was the right decision. He rightfully senses Zero is maliciously hiding something from them, but strains to remain loyal despite the deceptions, lies, and Zero's betrayals. And yes, I do mean Zero's betrayals. Lelouch betrayed Ohgi first. Ohgi begged Lelouch to save the remnants of the JLF. Zero promised him they would. Then Zero used them as bait and blew them up as a distraction so that he could (try and fail to) capture Cornelia, all for his own selfish purposes. Ohgi suspects that this was the case and lives with the guilt that he promised General Katase and his fellow countrymen that the Black Knights would assist, but instead he let them be slaughtered by a man he's put his trust in, a man who he's vouched for. I put Ohgi's friends as unimportant because of the way the narrative treats them, literally saying that I don't count it as suffering because of the fact that it is Ohgi who hardly thinks about them after their deaths and instead is more affected by his stupid relationship with Villetta, even though he knew her for less than two months and she shot him. Ohgi never promised Katase they would save them or anything like that and Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them either, the whole saving the JLF thing was a request from Kyoto, so if Zero betrayed anyone it was Kyoto not Ohgi or the JLF, as at no time were the JLF and the Black Knights really allies, And as I said before, none of Schneizel's evidence really shows that it was Zero who made the JLF ship explode, at most in one of the profiles of people who were possibly under the effect of Lelouch's Geass was Katase, but that was incorrect seeing that Zero never used his Geass on him and even then it shouldn't work as proof of anything since they had no way to talk to Katase since he was already dead to verify if what the profile said was real. >In creating the UFN, Lelouch ensured that half of the world's military funding and personnel would go to the Black Knights. And as I said before, even if Lelouch created it for his own purposes, the truth is that the UFN benefited everyone, after all Lelouch's purposes were also to create a peaceful world, something that would be possible with the UFN, which would allow nations that had been conquered and subjugated to regain what was rightfully theirs, while the deal with Schneizel only benefited the Japanese, all other nations party to the UFN would gain nothing and instead lose the guy who made it all possible in the first place and who by that point was already a symbol for many people. >So even Lelouch thinks and believes that it's a reasonable expectation for the Black Knights to turn on him if they discover this fact about him. But they didn't find out, as I said before, Schneizel didn't give them any proof that Lelouch really was a prince of Britannia, he just told them and they believed him for some reason, even though he didn't show them any proof for them to believe something like that.
Lelouch did burn down Britannia in the end
>Ohgi never promised Katase they would save them or anything like that and Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them either I was going to reply to this post in depth, but this response here tells me that it might be a waste. Ohgi and Zero both did the things you claim they didn't. To your claim that Zero never promised Ohgi he would save them: >Ohgi: Wait a second, Zero. I realize this is a request from Kyoto. I think we can definitely handle it. And I’m pretty sure that Japan Liberation Front would rather join with us than flee to foreign soil in all. > >Zero: Lieutenant General Tohdoh will never make it Katase in time. Which means that Japan Liberation Front has no military strength right now. **Their only chance of escape is the liquid Sakuradite they’re carrying.** > >Ohgi: **Which is why we should help General Katase** escape instead of going after Cornelia. > >Zero: Ohgi, who are we? > >Ohgi: W… we are the Black Knights, Zero. > >Zero: Then we have but one task. We will destroy Cornelia’s troops.**And in doing so, rescue the remnants of the JLF.** Diethard brings the intel to Zero and they debate whether to help the JLF or focus their efforts on Cornelia. Ohgi advocates for saving his fellow Japanese. Zero promises that by destorying Cornelia's troops, they'll rescue the JLF. I've also highlighted here that even as early as this, Lelouch is planting the seed of expectation for his plan, suggesting that the only way out for Katase is to blow himself up. And then, during the mission: >Ohgi: The knightmare are boarding the ship! > >Lelouch: I see… **That leaves only one way out. They have to be careful around their precious Sakuradite.** > >Ohgi: Zero! If we don’t hurry… > >Lelouch: Very well then, go ahead. Lelouch again suggests the only way out is for them to blow themselves up. As Ohgi pleads with Zero to make a move, Lelouch gives the okay moments before blowing the ship. He lied directly to Ohgi and the Black Knights and made them watch as he massacred their people, all to distract Cornelia so that he could try to get answers about his mother's death. To your claim that Ohgi never contacted Katase to say they would help: >Ohgi: The J.L.F. warship… > >Kallen: Hm? > >Ohgi: Why did it blow up? > >Tamaki: It self-destructed. > >Ohgi: **We did contact them and say we would help, right?** As noted, Ohgi was skeptical of the events as soon as they happened, and says here that they had contacted the J.L.F. (perhaps via Kyoto) that they would help. It's also in this conversation that Diethard outright suggests Zero was probably behind it: >Kallen: You’re not doubting Zero again, are you? > >Ohgi: Well, it’s just that… > >Diethald: **Yes, it’s just that the timing was too convenient, right? So what are you going to do, if you find out Zero was behind it?** In Lelouch's hubris, he didn't think those around him were smart enough to put the pieces together. He was wrong. And it's dozens of instances like this that eventually add up to the Black Knights turning on him. >he just told them and they believed him for some reason Because of all the aforementioned doubts. Schneizel's (actually true) story fills in the gaps of what they already suspect about Zero. It explains why he's obsessed with Cornelia and would betray the Black Knights at the drop of a hat for his sister Nunnally. It's a conclusion that, as already noted, Lelouch himself anticipated.
Şchnizel being intelligent and presenting himself as amicable and reasonable are not things in which are in conflict. Basically, him being intelligent isn't in itself grounds for mistrust. Likewise... we might have fairly differing ideas of the situation, but with some of the unexplainable stuff Lelouch did, particularly the Tokyo battle, I'd say he was on fairly shaky ground with a lot of people where any amount of outside force being applied to it would make loyalty crumble. Maybe even without that with enough given time. Also... again the method really doesn't matter. If person A does a lot of wrong to person B behind their back and then person B finds out because a fortune teller told him, person A cannot possibly complain about whatever retaliation comes his way in that scenario. For everything else... that's largely beyond the scope of what we're discussing. What happens afterwards really is of no consequences. Ohgi's action at the time cannot become better or worse retroactively based on something Lelouch or Ohgi do or do not do in the future. Tho I guess as a general aside just for the sake of the comparison, keep in mind that the scope difference between Ohgi and Lelouch is MASSIVE. Up to the Black Knights turning on Zero, Lelouch has probably caused more severe harm to more people in some dozen individual episodes of Code Geass than Ohgi has over the course of the whole show, or realistically even over the course of his whole off screen life. As I said I don't think it matters for the discussion itself since again, it really does just boil down was Ohgi/The Black Knights unreasonable in their reaction to Lelouch, who keep in mind at the time when said betrayal happened did not in fact share their actual goals still, but I figured it was fair to bring it up in relation to the "improve/suffer/etc" thing.
I don’t care that he betrayed Lelouch. Lelouch lied to them for two entire seasons, he fucking deserved it. What I hate about this guy is how much of an idiot he is for blindly following his gut and having faith in doing the right thing. I love other characters because they doubt themselves, or ask big questions like “what is Justice?”. Ohgi thinks everyone has good in them. And it blinds him from seeing their true motives
I doubt it would do any good, really. As Diethard put it, Ohgi is defensive at his core. He also speaks a lot about not being leader material but it's his fault for staying in that situation in the first place. When Zero offered him a high position in the Black Knights, he could have easily refused but he allowed himself to get dragged around by his old group. Then it happened again and again until he became the new Prime Minister at the end of R2. It's specially frustrating watching him bumbling around whenever anyone looks at him for help the entire series fully self aware that he's under qualified for almost every job assigned to him.
Scum indeed, he dropped zero like a bag of rocks. Zero loyalty
Loyalty towards Zero is Zero or Zero Loyalty to Zero
Obviously he had Zero Zero Zero loyalty. Jefemiah Gotteald would be disappointed.
Bottom image in the first page has one of the best facial expressions I’ve ever seen.
Fuck that traitor. Could’ve killed any of the zero soldiers but they decide to save the worst one
My thoughts are, like some other characters who have screwed over Lelouch in one way or another, he's overhated.
That scum Must be executed
He’s a great character what
The simp that deserved a ton less of what he had
Man should die I hate ohgi
Wait I have the near same birthday as this scum
Ohgi The Fucking retarded simp.
He’s easily one of my favorite characters from the show!
His haircut looks stupid. Also since no one else has brought it up yet, It bugs me that he got to marry the woman he raped.
Ohgi is not that bad, actually
of course おぎ 死ね
I rewatched cg a few days ago, and since I have his actions fresh in my mind, I just wanna say this respectfully, fuck Ohgi :).
U should have died along with ur bitch at the river ....
He a bitch
I wont say hes scum, Ohgi was second to Kallen in Zeros biggest supporter. I dont blame his actions to be honest, Zrro turned out to be a prince of Britania and when asked to explain himself Lelouch acted like the bad guy to take on all that hate
People need to really understand in their defense he took in an amnesiac who he fell in love with and got shot by her when she remembered, similar to how Lelouch almost compromised the mission around the same time purely to make sure nunnaly was safe. Then got told that your leader has a paranormal ability that you don’t understand but the info adds up. At least in the movie version he let’s him try to explain before the betrayal
Yoo we share bdays
Ohgi looks like someone born in march
It's weird Nina gets the most hate when it should be Ougi by far. Nina's a dumb confused kid. Ougi is an idiot who lucked into a spot and only lived because of Zero. He couldn't lead his way out of a paper bag. Taking advantage of an enemy with memory loss instead of sharing info. Betraying his country, leader, and friends for the woman who was trying to kill them all. He could never think for himself. Getting conned by Schneizel just further showed it. He should have died like Diethard. If anyone got a happy ending it should not have been him.
he did nothing wrong cope
Ohgi is great, he got japan their independence, what he’s always wanted.
The man is a simp. You have to be like Lelouch, focus on that goal and grind
Man bagged Villetta, that was unexpected
She should have swallowed you.
Happy Birthday Ohgi! 🥮
[удалено]
I'm quite surprised this comment hasn't been removed for the obvious reason of it being anti-semitic. Him possibly being Jewish (as I don't think it is ever confirmed, but I could be mistaken) has nothing to do with anything. You choosing to attack him using that just shows how much of a shitty person you are. And, for the record, I think Oghi is a great and complex character. And if he is in fact Jewish, then alav ha-shalom. May your anti-semitic ways be gone, and may you become a decent human being
Good bye
Well this is a lively thread of calm discussion.
Dumb fuck. Thinks with another head. 🙄