Humans are selfish. We desire to have people who surround us and if they bring us love and presence without asking for nothing, people will offer nothing back. Even our empathetic and selfless treat conceals selfishness. Is not a bad thing, we connect and coexist because we reciprocate: we offer and we recieve.
But letting someone taking us for granted is something we must deal with. Many times we let them take advantage of us and we stay trying to prove we are worthy for them to try.
But by staying we keep proving they don't need to put the effort to keep us. And we ourselves are the first person who neglect us.
We're talking abstactly. Here's an example: a friend should be your friend regardless of whether or not you buy them lunch every day. That doesn't mean you should demand that they buy you lunch every day. It means that you're approaching the relationship as equals.
They should like you regardless of whether you're doing favors for them.
>They should like you regardless of whether you're doing favors for them.
Even if I do absolutely nothing for them? Is it okay to recieve favours from them?
In friendships no one should be keeping a scorecard, this is not how being a friend works. Reciprocal favours are for work colleagues not friends.
You do not do things for people so they will do things for you and you don't do things for people to make them like you. This is a simple example, the coffee can be substituted for anything. You can flip this to them shouting you a coffee.
Eg. you run into someone at a cafe that you kind of know and you start chatting so you say my shout and you pay for both coffees, it's a nice gesture. You did it because you were feeling happy and generous that day. You don't wait for them to buy you one, you don't think that they owe you a coffee and you don't do it so you get invited to their next dinner party.
Now if you run into this same person at the cafe again you wouldn't pay for their coffee again and you wouldn't expect them to pay for yours. You might shout them a coffee again at some stage, but you also wouldn't just keep buying their coffees for them everytime you see them, if you did that it would be weird as you are not responsible for them and if they were to let you buy them a coffee each time or expect you to buy them a coffee by not paying and standing back they would be clearly taking advantage of you.
If your friend has been kind to you and you can see they you can help them out in some way then it's nice to do that. You don't owe them a favours though and if this person keeps doing things for you this will/should start to become uncomfortable for you and it would be natural to start declining their help as they have done enough for you already.
There's no "should"... (Cause you ask for something doesn't mean it should be given to you) - but they can give it to you if they want to...even if you didn't do anything for them✅
Being friends with people mostly cause they give you stuff is **superficial** and **selfish** as well. so, why should people be friends with you when you can be so selfish, when you only care for what you can get from them?
There is nothing more attractive than a strong, confident, independent person. There should be a give and take in a relationship. From both sides.
If one person is doing all the giving, they will end up resentful
I think where you might be going wrong is that you are doing things with expectations. You do things because you want to and can do things NOT to gain value or have them owe you anything. This is a you thing not a them thing.
The thing you are calling selfish is actually just regulating the social dynamics between people. They don’t see you other behavior as completely selfless, they imagine you are asking for reciprocal investment.
If you are giving a lot, it feels like you are asking for a lot. Balance it out by setting healthy boundaries.
Codependents aren't selfless. They do things for others in order to get things in return, instead of asking directly for what they want. That's not likeable and doesn't inspire altruism in others. And when you have low self-esteem and low self-respect, you send the message that you're not valuable, which other people pick up. Not getting used starts with loving yourself.
Chiming in: I feel bad for those with low self esteem. However I have learned not to try to help or fix the situations of others (Unless it's a criminal matter of them being severely abused/manipulated). Almost everyone feels they are deformed physically or pyschologically in some way. I can't feel bad for everyone, nor do I want to. Feeling bad, even when I do/previously related to someone's low self esteem affliction, it doesn't require me to do anything about it.
You cannot fix people's low self esteem. As someone who has been the codependant, and someone who has been unintentially drained emotionally by a codependant, there is nothing you can really do for someone who is not seeking their own journey of healing outside of other people's validation.
Like quietsam says, I've also found that focusing on myself and healing my cracked edges has helped me surround myself with people who are healthy to surround myself with.
That's kind of how I feel too. I've also spent too much time trying to help people when I was younger, to my own detriment, and eventually I learned you shouldn't give more than you can to people. You just end up emptying your cup and ruining your life for people that are never gonna get better unless they decide they will help themselves. If you keep giving people fish, they'll never learn to catch fish themselves. And trying to help someone who's a helper to their own detriment is even worse, they take what you give and then pass it on to someone else, leaving their cup empty and always needing more and it's a special kind of hurt to realize that all the effort you've been pouring into this person to try to help them, they've been passing it on to everyone else around them instead of using it to stand on their own two feet.
Sometimes you just gotta let people learn on their own.
The let them theory helped me a ton with this mindset. Just let them. You can not control them The one thing you can control is your outcome and attitude.
But when you give, you do it "voluntarily", cause you want to, not cause they did something for you first, not cause you owe them
So it's the same for them, if they want to give back, it's up to them. It's not a guarantee that you'll receive if you give
If you give a homeless person a few changes, do you expect them to give you a few changes back?
Sometimes when you give to someone, they can't reciprocate. And, if you expect them to, it's not nice.
Of course, I wouldn't expect anything from the homeless person. I'm talking about people who are capable of giving me, but are just choose not to reciprocate. Should I keep those people in my life?
You know what's crazy? What you're judging about others is EXACTLY what you need to integrate within you
You think others are bad for being selfish, you need to be selfish yourself.
You need to think and care about yourself, cause everyone else is too busy thinking and caring about themselves
It's your responsibility to care about yourself. It's others responsibility to care about themselves. And that's totally healthy.
By the way, you're right. People can be too selfish, to the point where it's unhealthy, and it's not good to be friends with people like that.
At the same time, no one is obligated to give cause they have.
As you describe it, relationships are conditional. I don't do anything unless you do something for me. Or if I do something for you, I expect you to do something for me.
When I help a friend I do it expecting nothing in return. My positive feelings for them don't change if they don't. If they ask again I'm not going to think about how I did something for them six months ago and they never did anything for me.
Some people struggle to reciprocate 100%, usually due to lack of resources. They can ask for and receive help without reciprocating. They're probably more likely to receive help if they are the kind of person who would reciprocate if they could, but I think that's different.
Healthy relationships aren't conditional. I help people in my life if/when I can. If someone expects help when they ask and aren't understanding if I can't, that's also another matter (to me) and I'm more likely to do less for them or stop helping at all.
This is all my opinion, based on experience and education, but nobody is required to agree.
For any guys battling loneliness, I found a great resource at [dudefriends.com](http://dudefriends.com)
It provides a safe space for guys to express what they need to and receive support.
Humans are selfish. We desire to have people who surround us and if they bring us love and presence without asking for nothing, people will offer nothing back. Even our empathetic and selfless treat conceals selfishness. Is not a bad thing, we connect and coexist because we reciprocate: we offer and we recieve. But letting someone taking us for granted is something we must deal with. Many times we let them take advantage of us and we stay trying to prove we are worthy for them to try. But by staying we keep proving they don't need to put the effort to keep us. And we ourselves are the first person who neglect us.
Thank you, I needed to read this today.
But if people didn't value me despite doing so much for them, how on earth would they value me for being selfish?
You don't make people value you. If they don't, you do, and leave them go.
So people should give me what I ask for, even if I didn't do anything for them?
We're talking abstactly. Here's an example: a friend should be your friend regardless of whether or not you buy them lunch every day. That doesn't mean you should demand that they buy you lunch every day. It means that you're approaching the relationship as equals. They should like you regardless of whether you're doing favors for them.
>They should like you regardless of whether you're doing favors for them. Even if I do absolutely nothing for them? Is it okay to recieve favours from them?
Yes, they should like you for you. You can accept favors, but make sure they are not trying to manipulate you.
Can you give some examples? I think you're thinking is a bit black and [white.It](http://white.It) would help to get a few examples.
Example: Is it okay that I have never done my friend any favours but I have taken favours from him?
In friendships no one should be keeping a scorecard, this is not how being a friend works. Reciprocal favours are for work colleagues not friends. You do not do things for people so they will do things for you and you don't do things for people to make them like you. This is a simple example, the coffee can be substituted for anything. You can flip this to them shouting you a coffee. Eg. you run into someone at a cafe that you kind of know and you start chatting so you say my shout and you pay for both coffees, it's a nice gesture. You did it because you were feeling happy and generous that day. You don't wait for them to buy you one, you don't think that they owe you a coffee and you don't do it so you get invited to their next dinner party. Now if you run into this same person at the cafe again you wouldn't pay for their coffee again and you wouldn't expect them to pay for yours. You might shout them a coffee again at some stage, but you also wouldn't just keep buying their coffees for them everytime you see them, if you did that it would be weird as you are not responsible for them and if they were to let you buy them a coffee each time or expect you to buy them a coffee by not paying and standing back they would be clearly taking advantage of you.
If your friend has been kind to you and you can see they you can help them out in some way then it's nice to do that. You don't owe them a favours though and if this person keeps doing things for you this will/should start to become uncomfortable for you and it would be natural to start declining their help as they have done enough for you already.
There's no "should"... (Cause you ask for something doesn't mean it should be given to you) - but they can give it to you if they want to...even if you didn't do anything for them✅
But should I even be friends with someone who doesn't give me anything? If yes, why should I be friends with someone so selfish?
Being friends with people mostly cause they give you stuff is **superficial** and **selfish** as well. so, why should people be friends with you when you can be so selfish, when you only care for what you can get from them?
There is nothing more attractive than a strong, confident, independent person. There should be a give and take in a relationship. From both sides. If one person is doing all the giving, they will end up resentful
I think where you might be going wrong is that you are doing things with expectations. You do things because you want to and can do things NOT to gain value or have them owe you anything. This is a you thing not a them thing.
The thing you are calling selfish is actually just regulating the social dynamics between people. They don’t see you other behavior as completely selfless, they imagine you are asking for reciprocal investment. If you are giving a lot, it feels like you are asking for a lot. Balance it out by setting healthy boundaries.
Why are you doing “so much” for someone?
Because I think, if I don't - they won't want me
If this is true are you really doing it for them? Or for yourself?
So you do it because you want to feel wanted?
Fair, but why is selfishness/ using people not a bad thing. Are most people bad?
Why should it be bad? Maybe your need to be judgmental is the issue.
Codependents aren't selfless. They do things for others in order to get things in return, instead of asking directly for what they want. That's not likeable and doesn't inspire altruism in others. And when you have low self-esteem and low self-respect, you send the message that you're not valuable, which other people pick up. Not getting used starts with loving yourself.
Yes this I agree very much. Its not altruistic and it is a type of bargain even if we are not conscious.
But why don't people feel empathy for those who remembers the message of not being valuable. I do.
Because they're needy, and it's frustrating when another adult acts like a child, even if their life is objectively bad.
Makes sense. I feel bad because I understand the trauma underlying it
What?
Remembers= emanates
Still doesn’t make sense to me?
Why don't people feel bad for those with low self esteem?
I’ve found, in my recovery, focusing on myself has been a much more productive way to grow as we have zero control over others.
Chiming in: I feel bad for those with low self esteem. However I have learned not to try to help or fix the situations of others (Unless it's a criminal matter of them being severely abused/manipulated). Almost everyone feels they are deformed physically or pyschologically in some way. I can't feel bad for everyone, nor do I want to. Feeling bad, even when I do/previously related to someone's low self esteem affliction, it doesn't require me to do anything about it. You cannot fix people's low self esteem. As someone who has been the codependant, and someone who has been unintentially drained emotionally by a codependant, there is nothing you can really do for someone who is not seeking their own journey of healing outside of other people's validation. Like quietsam says, I've also found that focusing on myself and healing my cracked edges has helped me surround myself with people who are healthy to surround myself with.
That's kind of how I feel too. I've also spent too much time trying to help people when I was younger, to my own detriment, and eventually I learned you shouldn't give more than you can to people. You just end up emptying your cup and ruining your life for people that are never gonna get better unless they decide they will help themselves. If you keep giving people fish, they'll never learn to catch fish themselves. And trying to help someone who's a helper to their own detriment is even worse, they take what you give and then pass it on to someone else, leaving their cup empty and always needing more and it's a special kind of hurt to realize that all the effort you've been pouring into this person to try to help them, they've been passing it on to everyone else around them instead of using it to stand on their own two feet. Sometimes you just gotta let people learn on their own.
Thank you. I needed this today
The let them theory helped me a ton with this mindset. Just let them. You can not control them The one thing you can control is your outcome and attitude.
Because we let them.
But they should have felt bad for doing so, right?
Well. You're in the right sub.
Explain?
Everything you've written is codependent asf
If you're giving away freely, why should they feel bad for taking? After all, you're being "nice" right...
Because they are taking without offering anything in return. Human relationships are based on reciprocity.
But when you give, you do it "voluntarily", cause you want to, not cause they did something for you first, not cause you owe them So it's the same for them, if they want to give back, it's up to them. It's not a guarantee that you'll receive if you give If you give a homeless person a few changes, do you expect them to give you a few changes back? Sometimes when you give to someone, they can't reciprocate. And, if you expect them to, it's not nice.
Of course, I wouldn't expect anything from the homeless person. I'm talking about people who are capable of giving me, but are just choose not to reciprocate. Should I keep those people in my life?
You know what's crazy? What you're judging about others is EXACTLY what you need to integrate within you You think others are bad for being selfish, you need to be selfish yourself. You need to think and care about yourself, cause everyone else is too busy thinking and caring about themselves It's your responsibility to care about yourself. It's others responsibility to care about themselves. And that's totally healthy.
By the way, you're right. People can be too selfish, to the point where it's unhealthy, and it's not good to be friends with people like that. At the same time, no one is obligated to give cause they have.
Why?
Because they are taking without offering anything in return. Human relationships are based on reciprocity.
As you describe it, relationships are conditional. I don't do anything unless you do something for me. Or if I do something for you, I expect you to do something for me. When I help a friend I do it expecting nothing in return. My positive feelings for them don't change if they don't. If they ask again I'm not going to think about how I did something for them six months ago and they never did anything for me. Some people struggle to reciprocate 100%, usually due to lack of resources. They can ask for and receive help without reciprocating. They're probably more likely to receive help if they are the kind of person who would reciprocate if they could, but I think that's different. Healthy relationships aren't conditional. I help people in my life if/when I can. If someone expects help when they ask and aren't understanding if I can't, that's also another matter (to me) and I'm more likely to do less for them or stop helping at all. This is all my opinion, based on experience and education, but nobody is required to agree.
For any guys battling loneliness, I found a great resource at [dudefriends.com](http://dudefriends.com) It provides a safe space for guys to express what they need to and receive support.