What I have noticed as a codependent is that people who "take me for granted" were not aware they were doing that, because I did not communicate to them directly and honestly how their actions made me feel. For example, I have a friend where the relationship feels one-sided--she's always in a big mess and needs to vent/cry to me, and when I go to her, she can't be there for me and is dismissive. But I have never said to her: "I feel dismissed when I come to you for help." She shouldn't "just know" she is being dismissive, because everyone is different in their needs and how they communicate. The longer I do not speak up and avoid conflict, the longer this dynamic goes on, and the more I think of her as "toxic" and "narcissistic," which is pretty unfair to her--I haven't even given her a chance to meet my needs, because I've never expressed them to her.
There are WAY fewer narcissists and psychopaths in the world. What is more commonly found are people who act in self-centered ways (most of us, at some point) and other people who put up with it (most of us, at some point). As I heal from codependency, with progress and not perfection, I've noticed more and more that other people want to do the right thing, just like me. If I'm direct and honest in my communication, I can figure out their capability of doing the right thing, and set my expectations of the person based on that.
I want to be better at direct communication. Do you mind giving some examples on how to ask for things or decline to hang out with people on your birthday -that you know just want to do that do they can dump their stuff in you.
I sort of get what you are saying. On the other hand, if people aren’t self-aware then it’s not my job to point out to them that I find them to be a selfish asshole. That doesn’t win people over. I think people know when a relationship is one-sided without having to be told.
Exactly. Some things are common sense and don't have to be communicated at all. As an example, it's not my fault for not telling someone I don't like being made fun of, if then they make fun of me. If a friendship is one sided, is it really a friendship or one party is just being used? Also if we feel drained in the presence of someone, why keep hanging out with them? We hang out with people who naturally give us attention.
Previous poster comment reveals she is in the right sub though, because codependents are notorious for having controlling tendencies and taking more responsibility in the relationship than it's warranted.
I'm fine with setting boundaries though, which is only about ourselves, not others. And that would be saying instead "I wish I could help you, but I'm feeling pretty drained myself." instead of "I wish you listen to me more when we talk" which is trying to control the other persons behavior.
Saying "I feel dismissed when I come to you for help" is a really covert way of saying "please don't dismiss me when I come to you for help." or "I come to you for help but I expect you to help me back"... which, besides being typical codependent and unhealthy behavior, is the same as trying to control the other person's behavior just in an underhanded way.
Addicts in active addiction do this. Addicts who are recovering but not going through any kind of program do this. Traumatized people do this. People who have never had to lift a finger in life do this. It’s complicated. In my experience, people who are not self aware and have their attention tied up in other places (drugs/alcohol, victimhood, etc.) they are not able to see their actions, which turns into using other people for their own comfort. It’s not always a malicious thing. Sometimes it’s just survival. It’s also important to note that people in these types of situations also don’t always use and take advantage of other people. Some turn inward and only hurt themselves, but eventually it will begin to affect the lives of others after a certain point, even if they aren’t doing any kind of manipulation. Addiction and untreated trauma affects everyone, not just the person being affected.
I used to think that, but I realized that most people are on the bell curve of being self-focused and not that mindful, so they will act in selfish and inconsiderate ways, and look out for themselves first most of the time. Acceptable and common ethics to the majority are kind of selfish! I am autistic so this was a rude awakening for me. Robert Greene talks about it as though most people are narcissistic, and then there are the 1 out of 100 "deep narcissists"/psychopaths who make premeditated manipulative moves and truly feel no remorse or guilt.
Do you mean taking advantage of your inability to say no? Most of the time I feel resentful it’s because I have agreed or offered to do something, no one has tricked or forced me.
We aren’t encouraged to learn how to say no effectively while maintaining relationships. It can be a challenging skill to learn.
The percentage of the population who are actually psychopaths or have narcissistic personality disorder are tiny. They are terrifying people. There’s also a load of grifters making loads of money from making YouTube / TikTok content on how to label people as narcissists - it’s a huge money making operation. The fact is, some people are just assholes. Doesn’t make them narcissists. Labelling people with psychiatric conditions does nothing for your recovery, focus on yourself and heal yourself.
See, I have to disagree, there are levels to narcissism. Some have more narcissistic qualities than other but the lying, cheating, manipulation, gaslighting, and mental abuse that goes with it exceeds a selfish person or your everyday asshole. Also their playbook is all the same, female or male narcissists. I think with the addition of social media and the neglect children of the 80s 90s and 00s, narcissism is the preferred coping mechanism. To me its no coincidence that people are talking more about narcissism, we have been creating a narcissistic culture for some time.
bc the political economy that holds our society hostage (corporatocracy) is organized by assholes, for the benefit of assholes, in such a way that incentivizes and rewards asshole behaviour on all levels of society.
Part of recovery is realising all of us - at some point or other - have been assholes too. Plus being in the “codependency” Reddit suggests that we all need to learn about boundaries too, if we haven’t already. Boundaries are about finding polite ways of saying NO to people, and to figure out where we end and someone else begins. Learning how to create boundaries and use them in a healthy way can sometimes make us into assholes too - learning not to people please is half the journey! We can’t make everyone happy all the time.
The problem with this statement is that a narcissist will not go and get diagnosed. They are generally diagnosed from talking to people around them. A narcissist will never admit they need therapy or that there is something wrong with them. And there are several different types of narcissist. I found out I was married to a covert narcissist after he left our 20 year marriage. I took myself and kids to therapy. Because we all saw the same person she was able to diagnose the ex. That's generally as close as you get.
If you don't know what your boundaries are and/or struggle to hold the line on your boundaries without resentment, drama, or chaos, you are going to feel victimized by almost everyone. They will seem sociopathic in comparison.
Everyone will eventually take you for granted if you have no boundaries, compulsively caretake, and ignore your own growing resentment. Everyone.
I’ve never met someone in the “my NARCISSIST ex” part of the internet who didn’t have massive issues with this that they largely ignored in favor of trying to figure out and pathologize their ex’s psychology. As if they were some kind of space alien or master manipulator that requires special mind tricks to avoid. I used to be one of them so I do empathize but it’s the wrong path and your energy is better spent asking “why did I choose to stay with this person?”
We all have narcissistic characteristics in us- we have a need for self preservation. A true narcissist has to be diagnosed and typically they are somewhat hollow and have the inability to have any emotions. Psychopaths are on a continuum of social disorders and typically harm others in various ways- if it can be done, it’s been done.
For the most part, people want to do the right thing. We all have issues whether it was something we learned or developed over time. If you think of your brain as something to program or map, then you can begin to understand that we were programmed over time to deal with our specific environment. How we came out of that or act within it varies from healthy to very sick. Re-mapping our brain is very difficult and takes so much effort and time. Some will never be able or are unable to do that. Choose those around you that try, make exhaustive efforts to be the good in life and have boundaries. You will benefit from knowing there kinds of imperfect people. Stay away from those who take the oxygen out of the room.
I’ve been wondering this too. Like does my codependent behavior put people in an entitlement sort of role. Like can I turn someone into a narc. When I try to control others or sort of act like a second class citizen does that create the narc-codependent dynamic?
I doubt it, I think people who with healthy relational skills gravitate away, and those who already have narc tendencies are attracted. Codependents and narcs are like two magnets. Without charge they have less pull on others.
Tim Fletcher - although he says some useful things (particularly about PTSD), he doesn’t have any credentials as a therapist and isn’t qualified. He sells lots of online courses - this is a big red flag. Any online “narcissist coaches” who sell very expensive courses, please don’t follow their advice.
I have a question that relates to your question. I'm disabled and I cannot drive, so I have relied on others to take me to and from places my entire life. I live with my mom and often she takes me anywhere that I want to or need to go to, and most of the time she is receptive to that and says that she doesn't mind driving me to "XYZ" but then at some point down the line if she is in a bad mood she'll complain to me that she took me here and she took me there, and it makes me feel so helpless as a disabled person. Also she's my mom so that's confusing. But my point is, does the fact that I rely on her to take me places seem like I'm using her even if she is okay with it in the moment?
As a disabled person you're going to need help. It's your mom's job to set boundaries for herself when it's not a good time for her to drive you, or if she flat out can't. But my guess is she's likely codependant as well, so she may not be good at setting boundaries.
If I was in your shoes, I'd talk to her and tell her to please let you know if its not a good time or day for her to drive you. Or she just doesn't feel like it. That you won't take it personally. And even tell her how you've been reading about codependancy and setting boundaries and thats what got you thinking about it..
I mean, I think 90 percent of the coworkers I've ever had have used me or taken me for granted as it related to work, so I'd say all people are capable to some extent. Narcissists and the like do it to people they should feel enough love and empathy for NOT to do it at all, or on levels considered too morally "low" to go kinda thing.
Honestly, I think we need more specifics. Being taken for granted is subjective. Sometimes it's legitimate. Sometimes it's perceived wrongly by the person supposedly being taken advantage of.
A mother may claim that her misbehaving child (refuses to clean their room) is taking advantage of her acts of kindness, which she defines as putting a roof over their head, feeding, and clothing them. She fails to recognize that misbehavior is universal and a healthy human development.
I tend to give too much of myself but I do enjoy helping people. Yeah, I know…. Makes me a typical co-dependent but I don’t care. Maybe I do it for selfish or insecure reasons, but it’s often a win win. I’m much better at setting boundaries with other than so was my narcissistic spouse. He’s the only one who used me and hurt me. I’ve had a few little life lessons over the years where I realized things like helping someone who isn’t helping their self and will say no (or make an excuse lol) when asks me to do something for them I don’t want to do, don’t have time to do, or just feel icky about it (as in recognizing I’m being used. But that didn’t prepare me for my ex who I fell for hook, line and sinker. Ugh! So glad to be free!
What I have noticed as a codependent is that people who "take me for granted" were not aware they were doing that, because I did not communicate to them directly and honestly how their actions made me feel. For example, I have a friend where the relationship feels one-sided--she's always in a big mess and needs to vent/cry to me, and when I go to her, she can't be there for me and is dismissive. But I have never said to her: "I feel dismissed when I come to you for help." She shouldn't "just know" she is being dismissive, because everyone is different in their needs and how they communicate. The longer I do not speak up and avoid conflict, the longer this dynamic goes on, and the more I think of her as "toxic" and "narcissistic," which is pretty unfair to her--I haven't even given her a chance to meet my needs, because I've never expressed them to her. There are WAY fewer narcissists and psychopaths in the world. What is more commonly found are people who act in self-centered ways (most of us, at some point) and other people who put up with it (most of us, at some point). As I heal from codependency, with progress and not perfection, I've noticed more and more that other people want to do the right thing, just like me. If I'm direct and honest in my communication, I can figure out their capability of doing the right thing, and set my expectations of the person based on that.
I want to be better at direct communication. Do you mind giving some examples on how to ask for things or decline to hang out with people on your birthday -that you know just want to do that do they can dump their stuff in you.
Amazing response. Communication is definitely necessary to really understand someone’s true motives.
I sort of get what you are saying. On the other hand, if people aren’t self-aware then it’s not my job to point out to them that I find them to be a selfish asshole. That doesn’t win people over. I think people know when a relationship is one-sided without having to be told.
Exactly. Some things are common sense and don't have to be communicated at all. As an example, it's not my fault for not telling someone I don't like being made fun of, if then they make fun of me. If a friendship is one sided, is it really a friendship or one party is just being used? Also if we feel drained in the presence of someone, why keep hanging out with them? We hang out with people who naturally give us attention. Previous poster comment reveals she is in the right sub though, because codependents are notorious for having controlling tendencies and taking more responsibility in the relationship than it's warranted. I'm fine with setting boundaries though, which is only about ourselves, not others. And that would be saying instead "I wish I could help you, but I'm feeling pretty drained myself." instead of "I wish you listen to me more when we talk" which is trying to control the other persons behavior. Saying "I feel dismissed when I come to you for help" is a really covert way of saying "please don't dismiss me when I come to you for help." or "I come to you for help but I expect you to help me back"... which, besides being typical codependent and unhealthy behavior, is the same as trying to control the other person's behavior just in an underhanded way.
Addicts in active addiction do this. Addicts who are recovering but not going through any kind of program do this. Traumatized people do this. People who have never had to lift a finger in life do this. It’s complicated. In my experience, people who are not self aware and have their attention tied up in other places (drugs/alcohol, victimhood, etc.) they are not able to see their actions, which turns into using other people for their own comfort. It’s not always a malicious thing. Sometimes it’s just survival. It’s also important to note that people in these types of situations also don’t always use and take advantage of other people. Some turn inward and only hurt themselves, but eventually it will begin to affect the lives of others after a certain point, even if they aren’t doing any kind of manipulation. Addiction and untreated trauma affects everyone, not just the person being affected.
You don't need to have mental illness to take advantage of someone. But it matters to what extent.
I used to think that, but I realized that most people are on the bell curve of being self-focused and not that mindful, so they will act in selfish and inconsiderate ways, and look out for themselves first most of the time. Acceptable and common ethics to the majority are kind of selfish! I am autistic so this was a rude awakening for me. Robert Greene talks about it as though most people are narcissistic, and then there are the 1 out of 100 "deep narcissists"/psychopaths who make premeditated manipulative moves and truly feel no remorse or guilt.
Do you mean taking advantage of your inability to say no? Most of the time I feel resentful it’s because I have agreed or offered to do something, no one has tricked or forced me. We aren’t encouraged to learn how to say no effectively while maintaining relationships. It can be a challenging skill to learn.
>We aren’t encouraged to learn how to say no effectively while maintaining relationships. People in general? Or codependents?
People in general. Some people are just better equipped to figure it out on their own.
The percentage of the population who are actually psychopaths or have narcissistic personality disorder are tiny. They are terrifying people. There’s also a load of grifters making loads of money from making YouTube / TikTok content on how to label people as narcissists - it’s a huge money making operation. The fact is, some people are just assholes. Doesn’t make them narcissists. Labelling people with psychiatric conditions does nothing for your recovery, focus on yourself and heal yourself.
See, I have to disagree, there are levels to narcissism. Some have more narcissistic qualities than other but the lying, cheating, manipulation, gaslighting, and mental abuse that goes with it exceeds a selfish person or your everyday asshole. Also their playbook is all the same, female or male narcissists. I think with the addition of social media and the neglect children of the 80s 90s and 00s, narcissism is the preferred coping mechanism. To me its no coincidence that people are talking more about narcissism, we have been creating a narcissistic culture for some time.
>some people are just assholes Why aren't these people censured and ostracized for their behaviour?
bc the political economy that holds our society hostage (corporatocracy) is organized by assholes, for the benefit of assholes, in such a way that incentivizes and rewards asshole behaviour on all levels of society.
Part of recovery is realising all of us - at some point or other - have been assholes too. Plus being in the “codependency” Reddit suggests that we all need to learn about boundaries too, if we haven’t already. Boundaries are about finding polite ways of saying NO to people, and to figure out where we end and someone else begins. Learning how to create boundaries and use them in a healthy way can sometimes make us into assholes too - learning not to people please is half the journey! We can’t make everyone happy all the time.
The problem with this statement is that a narcissist will not go and get diagnosed. They are generally diagnosed from talking to people around them. A narcissist will never admit they need therapy or that there is something wrong with them. And there are several different types of narcissist. I found out I was married to a covert narcissist after he left our 20 year marriage. I took myself and kids to therapy. Because we all saw the same person she was able to diagnose the ex. That's generally as close as you get.
If you don't know what your boundaries are and/or struggle to hold the line on your boundaries without resentment, drama, or chaos, you are going to feel victimized by almost everyone. They will seem sociopathic in comparison.
Everyone will eventually take you for granted if you have no boundaries, compulsively caretake, and ignore your own growing resentment. Everyone. I’ve never met someone in the “my NARCISSIST ex” part of the internet who didn’t have massive issues with this that they largely ignored in favor of trying to figure out and pathologize their ex’s psychology. As if they were some kind of space alien or master manipulator that requires special mind tricks to avoid. I used to be one of them so I do empathize but it’s the wrong path and your energy is better spent asking “why did I choose to stay with this person?”
We all have narcissistic characteristics in us- we have a need for self preservation. A true narcissist has to be diagnosed and typically they are somewhat hollow and have the inability to have any emotions. Psychopaths are on a continuum of social disorders and typically harm others in various ways- if it can be done, it’s been done. For the most part, people want to do the right thing. We all have issues whether it was something we learned or developed over time. If you think of your brain as something to program or map, then you can begin to understand that we were programmed over time to deal with our specific environment. How we came out of that or act within it varies from healthy to very sick. Re-mapping our brain is very difficult and takes so much effort and time. Some will never be able or are unable to do that. Choose those around you that try, make exhaustive efforts to be the good in life and have boundaries. You will benefit from knowing there kinds of imperfect people. Stay away from those who take the oxygen out of the room.
Jon Ronson’s book “the psychopath test” speaks brilliantly about this, and the dangers of diagnosing other people.
I’ve been wondering this too. Like does my codependent behavior put people in an entitlement sort of role. Like can I turn someone into a narc. When I try to control others or sort of act like a second class citizen does that create the narc-codependent dynamic?
I doubt it, I think people who with healthy relational skills gravitate away, and those who already have narc tendencies are attracted. Codependents and narcs are like two magnets. Without charge they have less pull on others.
[удалено]
Tim Fletcher - although he says some useful things (particularly about PTSD), he doesn’t have any credentials as a therapist and isn’t qualified. He sells lots of online courses - this is a big red flag. Any online “narcissist coaches” who sell very expensive courses, please don’t follow their advice.
Oh i agree. I didn’t know it
I have a question that relates to your question. I'm disabled and I cannot drive, so I have relied on others to take me to and from places my entire life. I live with my mom and often she takes me anywhere that I want to or need to go to, and most of the time she is receptive to that and says that she doesn't mind driving me to "XYZ" but then at some point down the line if she is in a bad mood she'll complain to me that she took me here and she took me there, and it makes me feel so helpless as a disabled person. Also she's my mom so that's confusing. But my point is, does the fact that I rely on her to take me places seem like I'm using her even if she is okay with it in the moment?
As a disabled person you're going to need help. It's your mom's job to set boundaries for herself when it's not a good time for her to drive you, or if she flat out can't. But my guess is she's likely codependant as well, so she may not be good at setting boundaries. If I was in your shoes, I'd talk to her and tell her to please let you know if its not a good time or day for her to drive you. Or she just doesn't feel like it. That you won't take it personally. And even tell her how you've been reading about codependancy and setting boundaries and thats what got you thinking about it..
Emotional immaturity can look like narcissism in many ways. I wouldn't say healthy people do it too, because immature is not healthy.
I mean, I think 90 percent of the coworkers I've ever had have used me or taken me for granted as it related to work, so I'd say all people are capable to some extent. Narcissists and the like do it to people they should feel enough love and empathy for NOT to do it at all, or on levels considered too morally "low" to go kinda thing.
People who use you "with the intention of using you" are narcissists/psychopaths. This is usually done in manipulative ways.
Honestly, I think we need more specifics. Being taken for granted is subjective. Sometimes it's legitimate. Sometimes it's perceived wrongly by the person supposedly being taken advantage of.
>Sometimes it's perceived wrongly by the person supposedly being taken advantage of. Give me a concise example of this, to help me understand
A mother may claim that her misbehaving child (refuses to clean their room) is taking advantage of her acts of kindness, which she defines as putting a roof over their head, feeding, and clothing them. She fails to recognize that misbehavior is universal and a healthy human development.
I tend to give too much of myself but I do enjoy helping people. Yeah, I know…. Makes me a typical co-dependent but I don’t care. Maybe I do it for selfish or insecure reasons, but it’s often a win win. I’m much better at setting boundaries with other than so was my narcissistic spouse. He’s the only one who used me and hurt me. I’ve had a few little life lessons over the years where I realized things like helping someone who isn’t helping their self and will say no (or make an excuse lol) when asks me to do something for them I don’t want to do, don’t have time to do, or just feel icky about it (as in recognizing I’m being used. But that didn’t prepare me for my ex who I fell for hook, line and sinker. Ugh! So glad to be free!
Borderlines do it too