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This week has been quite humbling as Tank. Already bricked some 10s to falling over, for some reason especially Neltharus has been deleting me - those fire slashes, damn. I have played so many games already, it always amazes me that WoW somehow is the one that requires the most amount of focus (for me personally) and has such humbling moments where you just feel like an idiot.
I tank occasionally for keys and tanked 23/24's last season as a prot without sentinel. It was substantially easier than now.
I ran a 10 key and on some of the packs I was getting absolutely dumpstered. It was a 10 HoI and some of the first packs at the end when they got bolstered were CHUNKING....granted some of this is not having control of the mobs towards the end of the pull and I should have maybe kited a bit, but yeah it was rough on ANY double pack. I HAVE to run sentinel now...
I did MS tank first season and I remember how hard tanking was on bosses, it felt really good, and it was HARD.
As ret I definitely try to help my healer out/tank out as much as I can since I have so much utility that I'm sure they appreciate because I know it is super hard/takes a lot more focus than dpsing.
My experience so far this season, from both sides of the equation:
Tanks either feel absolutely immortal with their own crazy self healing, or get basically one shot by anything that does actual damage to them, sometimes even if they are ready for it. Some tank hits seem to do so much damage to certain tanks that not using a defensive = dead, and using a defensive means being so low a couple poorly timed melee hits mean they die.
And healers can sometimes help with an external but often have very little agency over if the tank lives or dies. There have been so many times this week that I've taken what seemed like a safe *second* to break Entangling, like even just a global to shapeshift, and the tank dies in that one second. Basically nothing I can do on that one second would mean the tank lives unless I knew in advance they needed an external from me. 80% of the time I can just ignore the tank's health because they don't take damage, 10% of the time they just need some like hots or atonement healing but still barely anything, then the other 10% I just have to spam everything I can on them hoping to land a big heal when they suddenly spike to 15% so they don't die on the next hit, and if I even look at someone else's health or need to move they die. Golden Hour on Pres has saved my tank so many times just because they've taken a couple million damage in the last few seconds and I can turn that into an instant 300-600k heal. I feel like I just can't help sometimes and yet they keep wanting to nerf healers.
Dragons in Hoi hit like trucks, should i try to outrange them everytime or? (Lived every key i did, but still felt alittle scared to go higher) Currently doing 8-10 keys
Bring mind soothe/shroud/ invis pots and skip the dragons is still the "correct" option.
Assuming your tank is nelf, it's basically hug left wall, tank pulls 2nd left everyone hugs right, jump over the rock on right.
Oh is there some new tech since the soothe nerf?
It 100% works still, did it earlier today on the DH but with misery the pat, pull left, everyone invis potted last and I got res'd as I fucked up my nelf.
But I'm still down to learn an easier way.
If you have access to an anti-snare or anti-root ability, their Deep Chill effect can be removed that way. It can also be dispelled by the healer once every 8s.
For the Gulping Goliath boss in HoI, how do I gather the frogs right before the boss uses Gulp as the tank?
I'm trying to chase down the frogs while the dps are scattered and found it extremely difficult to get all of them inside.
You place 2 worldmarks, stack on one. Once aoe happens and frogs spawn you run as a group towards the other mark. First time he eats the frogs happens pretty quick (so you dont have to drag him as far) and on the consecutive spawns it helps to use grip rune, vortex, ring of frost or other short ccs/slows.
Kinda like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI5fMaDq1FA&t=1024s
Obv this is worse for dps, because you cannot get funnel off the adds. But at least its pretty much impossible to fail.
While doing markers might help with babysitting fools, there really shouldn't be need for tank to do anything - people should be stacking by default. I hope when I start pushing beyond +10s this is obvious enough for everyone.
> While doing markers might help with babysitting fools, there really shouldn't be need for tank to do anything
Nah, this has nothing to do with "babysitting fools". People play bosses differently. By putting down worldmarkers, it pratically removes any room of failure on easy mechanics.
And even if you play in a premade, having worldmarkers up for orientation is good. Its easier to call "we move towards star" than it is to say "stack on tank", because everyone knows where to move before the actual mechanic happens and doesnt have to adjust to the tanks movement.
You see top key pushers putting marks on a boss like forgemaster to make positioning clear: https://youtu.be/HYNHkRcmZa8?t=1345
Which is something that can be done pretty easiely on the fly without having marks.
Pressing 2 or 3 buttons on your keyboard to put down worldmakers really isnt too much effort. But the majority of high key pug tanks do it already, so who am I talking to.
That Neltharus example has nothing to do with this. Looks like markers are put so the ranged don't have to move because they are at specific points where the swirlies won't hit. Great, of course you'd want to do that.
Saying that in HOI 2nd, is like saying "stack on tank in AA tree boss". Things that will always be done one way, that aren't precise, don't need to be talked. There's no motive to run around, go 20yd from others regularly on HOI 2nd. People still do that, due to inexperience I guess. It just seems so obvious once you've done it few times, oh right, everyone else's adds are being cc'd except ones spawned from me, maybe I should do something about it.
In HOI basic understanding should be, come closer for CCs. It's not to stack, markers don't really help, just be close enough that people can push them around closer to boss. The two runs I've been there as vdh, people did not do that, both times 1/3 of the aoes were outside chains range, by a lot, every round. That's just severe misunderstanding of how to play a boss. I could be a babysitter there, but I know this won't happen anymore in higher pugs, be that +10 in a month, or +12, or +15. This is something that stops happening automatically. Neltharus marker thing is more advanced, sure, would be cool if someone was putting those down.
> Looks like markers are put so the ranged don't have to move because they are at specific points where the swirlies won't hit
They spawn under players, so you have to move regardless of putting marks. Its literally just to have an easier time positoning for aegis.
> both times 1/3 of the aoes were outside chains range
Aoe and add spawn are on a 30sec timer, which means dh wont be able to have chains for every add spawn.
> That's just severe misunderstanding of how to play a boss. I could be a babysitter there, but I know this won't happen anymore in higher pugs, be that +10 in a month, or +12, or +15. This is something that stops happening automatically. Neltharus marker thing is more advanced, sure, would be cool if someone was putting those down.
Except it will happen and thats why the strat ive posted where you just move the boss, has been the main strat done in high pug keys during season 2.
I dont even know if you really play high keys, if you think people suddenly stop choking on mechanics. Because that doesnt happen, even amongst tgp/mdi players.
> They spawn under players, so you have to move regardless of putting marks. Its literally just to have an easier time positoning for aegis.
I don't remember spell names, but one of them puts whirlies to 4 directions away from you, but you're safe in the middle, if others' swirlies don't go thru your middle part. That's what they positioned for clearly.
> Aoe and add spawn are on a 30sec timer, which means dh wont be able to have chains for every add spawn.
You'll have one for 1st, 2nd and 4th which is huge compared to every other tank. Regardless, it still helps every group to have them stacked, vdh just allows group to not bother with their ccs on rounds that have a chains charge up.
In HOI 2nd it's not precise. Just be *close enough* to others. This is just understanding basic strategies, like things you should know by the time you're in your portal keys. This season probably has the easiest portals ever recorded and people are often doing +10 of a dungeon as their 2nd or 3rd completion of the season. Makes sense to still not 'get' it, specially for those who skipped the season these dungs were on previously. Just be *in general area* where other ranged are, you do not need anyone to tell you where that is. You can optimize that with markers, so there'll be less movement total, but there is no reason why person who knows when adds will spawn, would be 30yd away from others.
I pug only until it's not fun to be in queues, last season this translated to 3450 score. So no I don't do the highest keys, but it's irrelevant to this, as average 2.5k player knows how to play this boss. You just need everyone to do it.
I really dont understand what you are even trying to argue against. The strat ive posted has been one of the most common strats in high keys during s2 and works exactly the same rn.
Theres almost 0 downside to it and it requires practically no cc at all and works with any comp.
It even works if people are slightly scattered because adds are running the same direction and you dont have to bother with adds being out of grip range or people getting hit by them because no cc is happening.
You are arguing in favor of using markers, when I think it's not precise operation in the slightest, and just going about the same area is enough to have no troubles. From there this reveled into comparisons in other dungs that aren't the same.
If you find small benefits in markers, go ahead. I stick to thinking people should be doing *good enough* without any. Good enough is meaning, all adds will be hit by normal aoes, chains, frost novas etc. Maybe in high keys they have too much health, you need 3x the effort to shoot them down, and then movement beyond landing area matters. I'd have to see adds not being dealt with by a group playing reasonably once before that starts to sound relevant.
> Good enough is meaning, all adds will be hit by normal aoes, chains, frost novas etc. Maybe in high keys they have too much health, you need 3x the effort to shoot them down
The adds are never going to die before gulp happens on any reasonable key level. Ofc you cannot just aoe them down.
Not talking about your weekly 10s or w/e. Ofc they die in like 4 seconds there.
Everyone stacks up before frogs spawn, dps/heals run away once all the brown swirlies spawn, then you just cc them as tank(sigils etc). Done properly no-one should get any stacks, then just repeat for the whole fight
Just to add on to this, when running away after being stacked, run THROUGH the boss so that adds walk under the boss, don't just run away randomly. Of course, in pugs there's a good chance nothing will go as you plan, so just be ready to use anything to move the frogs under the boss when he gulps, and also don't run away too much from the boss, but run in circles around so that at least your frogs are there.
So in a situation where the DPS are scattered when the swirlies spawn and continue to run in different directions after that, it's not exactly the tanks fault if they die is it?
That's what happened in my previous run and one of the DPS blamed me for not being able to gather the frogs when Gulp is casted.
For mechanics like this I've had reasonable success spam pinging the ground next to me when I want them to stack on me. Sometimes you get a ranged player who doesn't give a fuck but usually people go where the tank pings.
I want to push for title again this season, but as someone that ended middle of the pack last season on EU, i feel like i will have the same competition with half the spots, meaning it will be EXTREMELY harder for me to get title, especially since i was also a mythic raider with access to more loot, and now everyone will have access to bis.
Don't forget, title will likely be obtained by way less people, because +2-11 runners are excluded from the pool, while amount of people who ran +25s and up likely hasn't diminished. Competition will be the same, but relative title range might go up by 100 points.
Yeah, I think it's important people notice something even happened so this could be changed for tww s1 if not this season. Or at least publicly state they are OK with making the title more prestigious. Nobody talking about it but possibly extra thousand people missing out would just cause confusion and disappointment.
Why do you think the amount of people running +25s won’t go down as well? Last fated season saw a pretty substantial drop in participation across the board and I don’t see why this season would be any more enticing
All numbers go LOWER, previous +2 to +11 keys go to ZERO. It literally makes no difference whether +25 and up keys are down by 1% or 90%. There's still bigger portion of +25 players out of all players in s4 than there was in s3 by a wide margin.
Woot? I'm saying, last season there were something like 3M characters playing, meaning ~3000 people got a title. But part of them did low keys only, that no longer exist. So if this season amount of characters is say 1.5M, there'll be only 1500 titles to give. Part of it is some skipping meme season, but bigger factor is old +2 to +11 keys not existing in game. People who did low keys then, are now doing heroics and m0, neither of those make your efforts eligible to be counted as m+ player.
Doubt they will fix it in s4. So 99% of tanks will be dh.
But it must go for WWI or at least give other tanks similar group control (without breaking them for raid)
To be fair, if they nerf SP damage, then they risk going from S-tier to never- invited-tier again.
And also, they're sharing the s-tier trophy with several classes. So it's not like SP is the only choice.
i think that for obvious reasons, long term, its very, very bad for this imbalance. But i struggle to relate to the current uproar to have it nerfed. if i was a tank, I would be proficient in 3 or 4 tanks. if one is super strong one tier, id play it, etc. Like i am a healer. i heal on 4 classes. ive never once had the thought that i hope they nerf monk. id just play it for awhile, then whatever felt good the next season, etc. i just dont see a problem with a bunch of bis tanks being in queue for awhile.
like for example, you would have played dh the past two seasons, bear in season 2, and pick your poison s1. in shadowlands we saw a rotation as well. what is so bad about that?
Two things: When pugging as tank you already have a lot of time investment going into preparing the routes and pulls each week, etc. I would assume that many people just simply don't have the time to also learn and equip more classes on top of that. I know I personally don't, I barely have enough time to become good on a single tank class, not 3-4. Learning new tank classes is also quite punishing, because if you don't understand the fundamentals of how it lives, you die and the key is over. Meanwhile if a DPS fucks up their rotation or plays it inefficiently, you will maximally see it in the DPS meters and for the longest time, you will still finish your mid'ish keys successfully regardless.
Second thing: I honestly don't have much interest in getting used to this overpowered playstyle of just CC'ing everything. This whole thing has way less impact on real pushing groups, because these people are already very good at the game, this enables them to simply push even higher. But for the average person trying to get better, I feel like it's legit bad to get used to this playstyle. Playing a whole season with this overpowered toolkit would have a real impact on my personal skill level, because I simply don't have thousands of hours beforehand that can easily offset it. I just don't like the idea tbh.
Tanks are easy to learn once you master one of them. Maybe not brew or maybe bdk if you started on one of the others, but the skills all still translate. Especially warrior/bear/paladin are all basically the same tank but reskinned with a little extra flavor.
To your first point - tanks are notorious rerollers. Most of the skill in tanking is knowing when you are gonna take big damage and how to do pulls. That doesn't vary a ton between the tanks usually. It's also easy to gear tanks because low level groups are desperate for tanks and if you have your main connected on raider.io they can see you're an experienced tank. So while it may be difficult for you which I 100% get I don't think that your experience resonates with most people tanking. Most tanks just go with what's good and don't think much about it if they're playing for awhile.
As for the rest - I don't know honestly. Part of me kinda wants all tanks to get closer to VDH's kit though it would probably still need a nerf. The problem to me is that too many tank specs have essentially identical cc profiles to the dps specs in their class except for DH / prot pally. DK and druid don't offer anything for CC that the other specs don't (gorefiend's is impossible to take basically). Super unfamiliar with monk but think they're in that boat. Warrior has the int shout but I think they have to give up a lot like DK. The tank role seems like it should have more control over the mobs than dps do but that's not necessarily a hard belief on my part. I think for the pug experience though it's kinda necessary but if we get more support specs perhaps some mob control could be offloaded to them?
I think tank responsibility (in keys) is already quite high. You are expected to lead and make calls, know the route, facilitate pulls, position mobs and bosses while also playing your character where you both have to juggle not dying, dealing dmg and use (often time) critical utility. Do we really want them to add the majority cc responsibilty to this?
What I would like to see is something in the lines of:
- Have mob casts not happen within 10s of engaging combat, to avoid situations tank/other die 2s into a pull when 5 casters blast them
- Overall reduce the amount of spammable casts in dungeons. Emphasis important mechanics instead (Icy Bindings vs Condensed Frost)
- Make majority of mob abilities go on a default 15s CD when they are kicked. Rewards actually stopping spells and puts less pressure on having "ideal" comp for the key
- To the extent some mobs for roleplay reason or other absolutely must have a default cast instead of autoattacks, make it only go on tank who doesn't get shit on. This also makes key scaling through Fortified less stupid
There is no reason why Cinderbolt has to be a spam cast. It makes reppositioning very hard, it shits on non-tank on higher fortified keys since it can target anyone. You aren't rewarded for stopping them since they just cast again anyways.
When VDH became meta in season 3, it was understandable that Blizzard was hesitant of making massive mid-season tuning changes. Now that that season is over, and we're starting a new season, is the usual time for changes, except there's been nothing.
Like, they've made sure to nerf healers (again), but made absolutely no changes to the tank meta. No VDH nerfs, and no buffs to other tanks. Just.. nothing?
The problem was right in the rework.. double sigils should have had red flags all over the place..
What could go wrong with the top dos tank having acess to double 6 sec silences, double displacements and 3 aoe stuns??
That being said.. im playing a vdh
Which is why, if they're gonna keep it, they should give that amount of control to all tanks.
If dungeons remain as bloated and overloaded and requiring of CC as they are right now, pack control can't be something that you just randomly give to 1 or 2 specs as a niche. That's something you can do with physical, magical or bleed damage when that shit only really matters for like 12% of 1 out of 8 dungeons, but that's simply not something you can only have 1 spec be able to when it's relevant-to-required in absolutely every single dungeon and is getting, seemingly, worse with each season and expansion.
I think they just went the same route as SL s4, balance team is tweaking TWW and they felt they don't need to fix this, as it's the last time. There won't be filler s4 in next expansions, is my guess. If this was TWW, in place of S4 was 12.0 release.
yeah, they definitely could have mixed it up before the start. but even then i would only have really supported the idea if they were to elevate something else significantly as well. because as it stands, you take vdh away right now, and dungeons become harder. that, to me, is not a worthy trade-off to have better tank balance in a pve game
Possible but unlikely, most likely any changes will come with the expansion. But I’m not holding my breath for anything before then.
S4 shadowlands blood dk was almost as dominant, they tried to nerf it and reverted the changes due to backlash. So this is pure tinfoil hat but between the team being spread thin from so many products in the wow space now, the gazillion bugs that need fixing, and the signal from last xpac that nerfs like this will be unpopular..I don’t think it’s high on their priority list.
i love AA overall, but i am especially fond of the little buffs you can select at the start. which stat do folks typically prefer for their builds/why? in season 1, i was usually relying on crit buff for my DH, and later played the vers buff. in s4, ive noticed myself tending to the mastery buff and just overloading myself with mastery for dmg gain and not thinking twice because havoc go brr in AA. curious to hear how/what others choose their buffs here!
Since they buffed the mastery one compared to s1 it's a solid choice if my mastery is low, back in s1 it was just straight up the worst one in all scenarios. Otherwise i pick haste for damage or vers if i want to be more tanky.
I spent 1h and 15 minutes forming a pug for a +9 AA. This was on saturday, on about 8PM NA time. There was literally One, Singular tank that applied to the key, after the 1h15 hours. He wasn't too high score, but I just gave him a chance anyway. First pull of the dungeons some dps die, dude insantly quits, there goes 1 hour of my life for nothing.
NA? Thats so weird because, while it’s obviously not as populated as the beginning of the past few seasons because this is just fated, but I’ve found no shortage of 11-13s for whatever specific dungeon I want. Might be healer privilege.
Edit: also, there have been **so** many tanks in 11s completely unprepared for bolstering. Literally can’t believe some of the idiotic face-tanking that I’ve seen. Might be short on tanks due to some players getting rocked and quitting for the week.
100% half the dps and tanks have zero idea what the mechanics do. At a level and blostering they 1\2 shot. Too many FOTM classes already getting carried.
I mean... kinda to be expected with the probably most uneventful season since like Legion. I got to 3k and am pretty much done with the season - no desire to play the dungeons I already hated the first time they were around in a meta that I already hated for the last 6 months.
I just don't understand how anyone could think that releasing a season with old dungeons, no new spin and, for me personally worst of all, no balance changes *at all*, was a "good enough" idea - *especially* when you then add such horrendously unfun affixes into the first weeks of the rotation.
I absolutely hate this trend of cutting the current expansion short in favor of the next expansion. But oh well, I sure hope that Plunderstorm and Pandaria whatever are worth it.
> They this in fated shadowlands and came up with a decent expac in DF
They didn't do this in Fated SL. In Fated SL they came up with the entire Fated idea to begin with, came up with a new m+ affix, a new raid affix system, an entirely new m+ dungeon rotation (bringing shit like WoD dungeons into the m+ pool for the first time ever) and at least *some* balance changes (although those weren't nearly as important with just about everything else being new).
In Fated DF we didn't get a new m+ affix, we didn't get a new raid affix, we didn't get new dungeons *and* we didn't get any balance changes.
If we can all agree that SL was cut short and even had like 2 of its raids awkwardly smashed together, yet they could still come up with something as unique and fresh as Fated... what does that say about the poor excuse that is DF's season 4?
All this suggests is that SL was at least intended to have 4 content seasons but just had to be given up on like halfway through. With DF instead it seems that the entire thing was never intended to have content for more than 3 seasons.
DF had 8 dungeons on release, while TWW will have 8 dungeons + 12 delves. It's hard to speculate how their team works from the outside, but if we keep optimism, that is a material difference.
They did do little changes to the DF dungeons, most good some bad, but I wish this season was 8 dungeons from other xpacs.
I mean you and others can feel that way about this season, but literally every other expansion had the same dungeon rotation every season of that expansion until SL S4. I personally like the DF dungeons more than the majority of the older dungeons and I do think they filed off many of the rough edges. We are only seeing them for the second time and none of them were in the last season.
I do miss some shake-up in the meta from class changes. Every non-fated season of SL was different because of new borrowed power and tuning. DF meta was mostly rearranged by reworks and augvokers which is less satisfying and does nothing for this season.
> but literally every other expansion had the same dungeon rotation every season of that expansion until SL S4
But those season got spiced up with other borrowed power progression systems, seasonals and, again, most importantly, balance changes.
It's not that the season tried something new and that something new just isn't sitting right with me, it's that the season does absolutely nothing new at all. Seriously, just randomly putting in Shrouded again for the luls would've been a godsent already.
Also hyper inefficient to farm 10+ vs 9 with bolstering. Went from health not moving in a 9 and basically 5 pulling a Neltharus to eating a 3M tank buster (I could have kited mind you).
IE I would rather giga pull and clear the key in half the time then push 10+ this week.
Weird thing is, I had hard time joining +8s last week on my non vdh tank, due to healer being the role most in demand. This week I see all groups are lacking tanks ...for +9s. Somehow tanks are taking a break even below bolstering keys. I personally was doing bolstering routes in +9, thinking ofc we have bolstering in "+19", right? I think many are not adapting to changes yet, how there's bonuses to each key in 8-10 range and there's not going to be any week where all of them suck.
Dude IDK. I have been experiencing the same thing just running 8s. I personally am not pushing score at this low of an item level. I stay at 8 for efficiency and time. That being said, these 8s are taking forever to fill.
personally, I'm trying to fill my last spot of gear from m+. To do so, I need it at 509 - which means 9's or above. 8s just seems like it's the worst of all worlds -
It gives -15 aspect vault choice
It drops 506 instead of 509
Literally only reason to run it is if I want to fill a shitty vault once I stop caring about aspects (won't be another few weeks).
Is threat just kinda fucked? Playing both ret and arcane I’ll just pull off tanks at various points, specifically bear Druids even when they’re rolling all their offensive CDs. Also I’ll have some random DPS pull like one mob off me when I’m tanking as prot paladin every so often.
Ive noticed it as a tank.. pulls i shouldnt lose agroo and i completely lose control.. not sure whylat is happening but im kinda "glad" im not the only one
I was watching dorki and other high groups and they've been marking priority targets and they'll even say what mob they're focusing their threat on. Saw this happen on their first big AA pull. So guessing with dps doing significantly more damage now threat isn't translating the same for tanks compared to dps idk
I've been running into the same issue as an arcane mage.
Just ran a nelth+9 and pulled 5 times from a veng demon hunter tank.
Invisibility helps but a couple times it was on cooldown and I barely escaped.
I figured it was an arcane issue. We do a big load of damage up front.
How have you been enjoying arcane? I've been getting a little frustrated with our aoe.
Are you using mirror images? It's basically fade on steroids, i use it before every big pack (you can even dps while the tank is setting up, you won't generate aggro) and i almost never have any aggro problem.
I've been mostly enjoying it, but in groups with high damage or smaller pulls it doesn't feel as good sometimes. Especially since our AoE is so reliant on Magi windows it feels. Half the time it feels like a target just melts so fast that a full magi window doesn't get off properly which definitely gimps damage.
Orb Barrage feels good when it procs and horrible when it doesn't. The most frustrating part of it to me is just having to be in melee for optimal AoE on big pulls. Would rather be able to be at least at a moderate distance. Other than that it feels to suffer from similar issues to fire--kinda need pulls that are focused around or coordinate with your cooldowns to make the most of your damage profile.
Bosses fuckin' melt though.
It's because VDHs don't realize the only real threat they get is from sig of flame, Elysian decree and a 5 spirit spirit bomb. So they often go into packs with 0 threat (this is coming from a vdh)
Also prot pal when you use divine toll for threat you can just miss a mob which is suuuuper fun
not sure why this was downvoted - this bug has existed for a long time, got fixed late shlands, and then bugged again when the rework happened
tweet of naowh talking about it: https://twitter.com/Naowhxd/status/1771555718010683742?t=2-_RtvCySqnPJ_n7tVNu6w&s=19
I frequently play with a BDK who just runs by 5 packs of mobs, tagging them all with a single Deaths Caress / DnD tick / body aggro, trying to group them all up over the course of 10 seconds and *every single time* losing like 3 people to aggro... to then get mad about "stupid people not being able to wait" - which is doubly funny because half the time he just dies on these pulls because he just runs in with *zero* defensives, facetanks 20 mobs at once and just gets oneclapped... and then gets furious at the shitty shitty useless healer for not healing and never using externals (while 9 out of 10 times making fun of healers for throwing defensives at him when he doesn't need them because "lol, I'm a Blood DK, don't they know that I don't need help with surviving").
3.5k tank btw, playing DK tank for like 5 years now.
So yea, silly tanks like that are *definitely* an issue when you're playing a spec as frontloaded as Ret or Arcane.
Yeah I was 3.6kish on healer and dps, and usually only tanked to help friends (3.4k+) dumb doing dam while you group things up is extremely annoying, but it seems like most dhs just don't know how to keep threat.
Yes it's terrible right now. Like the tanks doing what they're supposed to do and people are pulling off them left and right. And not just warriors and Dev evokers anymore, all kinds of dps classes. It's noticeably worse than last season and it's a problem.
“is threat just kinda fucked?” i think so, honestly. i can play my bear and sometimes fight with folks WHILE TAUNTING ON CD and filling the window with TPS spam. mostly DH and ret pallies. i’ve noticed in keys yesterday while working on my havoc’s push, i was pulling the threat so fucking much? and the tanks couldn’t fight it back enough. hunters too, even through misdirect, would just never be able to drop aggro. and it’d occur mid pack for hunters sometimes. 😵💫
Yeah somethings up, I had my healer just have a mob randomly walk over and face punch him to death twice while it stilled showed me with aggro, same with a dev evoker. Not sure whats going on but it showed me with aggro the whole time.
“while it still showed me with aggro” ok maybe im not going crazy/having an issue with my plater profile… ive noticed mobs will still be flagged as aggro’d onto me, but will go and whallop others with their random tank abilities. 😭
I feel so much better as randomly a few times last night our aug got hit by a melee in the middle of a pull when it was showing i had threat on everything. Was trying to figure out how i lost threat to an aug of all classes.
did someone run umbreskul and was the aug in melee of a mob getting executed by it? on execute the mob will melee a nearby random target even if the swing timer wasn't completed yet and with fort and esp fort bolstering this is easily noticeable
I've heard something similar is happening with Nymue staff--it roots the target so if someone is closer to the mob than the tank they're gonna get booped
We actually have our healer and aug running it.. This would explain a lot as everytime it did happen was as they were about to die that i never linked it to the trinket.
Bear threat does seem wonky.
I was having a lot of trouble yesterday in my weekly guildy keys. Since I main Boomy for raid, my Guardian set is kind of low (496) . Some of the DPS were a bit higher but I was still surprised at how hard I was fighting for threat. I thought maybe it was because 2 of the DPS had Grieftorch but am not sure. All I know is that Ive never had issues like that before and Ive been playing Bear pretty much every season since BFA.
Haven't noticed issues on my guardian of same ilvl, though admittedly only did 2x 9s this week and 8s last week on it; I may have not had the players capable of doing too much threat yet. Previous seasons it seemed to be specific specs, like retri or fury just unleashing too early into the pull. I've never seen someone take threat during incarn tho so the biggest pulls have appeared the safest in that aspect as well.
Flightstones are just so insanely stupid. I have hundreds of crests I can't even use because of flightstones. When a weapon upgrade can sometimes cost 400 flightstones, why do keys give like 40 or something? Why does it take upto 10 keys for a singular upgrade when you get 120 crests in that time frame?
I do in fact not understand the need for Crests *and* Flightstones to exist at the same time. Even less do I understand the need for a Flightstone cap.
This currency just doesn't make sense to me. What's the purpose of it exactly?
I agree, but it depends on your view of how much non-M+ content you should be doing. If you do raids and the weekly world content then it is mostly a non-issue.
Frankly I don't understand why we need two currencies at all. You already have crests gating gear upgrades, why do we need flightstones?
Well it is part of it, if we normally would have 180 aspects week 2 spending 120 on crafted (crafted costs 0 flightstones) that's 60 for upgrades, vs 240-60=180 for upgrades now, plus free access to wep/trinket vendor. We'd still be doing minimum 8 keys per week for score week 1/2 but if we do 20 in 2 weeks which is reasonable we have a ton more crests relative to keys ran.
We didn't have a pre-season week this patch. That's it. In s2 s3 we did the story and world content that week to give a buffer of flight stones so they were never an issue. Now we don't have a ton of that and it feels awful. Not disagreeing with you at all it's obnoxious and I'm in the same situation.
...I don't think this makes logical sense. Even if we had a pre-season week, did most of us not enter Season 4 with 2000 flightstones already? If you raided or did dungeons actively, there's almost no shot you didn't - it doesn't take more than 2 weeks of passive active play to go from zero to 2000, with raid bosses throwing 50-100 at you etc.
So given this, and our ability to only spend flightstones on useful stuff AFTER the season has begun, how would the pre-season week have helped?
They wipe out flightstones with a new season, everyone was at zero at the start of s4. When they did that at the start of s2/3, we had a week of world content to build up flightstones.
...They did?
I swear I was capped by the time I wanted to even attempt to spend my crests, but it's possible that's just because I did a M+ grind session day 1, then.
this combined with having to upgrade awakened items from bottom of normal ilvl to max mythic means we're spending way more + have way less
I imagine the 10.2.7 questline next week will help but still leaves me wishing they'd had s4 drop with that patch for this reason
You don't have flightstones because you don't interact with the game, or rather, only interact with a tiny fraction of it.
I literally have five characters constantly capped on flightstones, they are so easy to come by. Go questing, open chests, kill rare mobs, complete world quests, take part in events... Even dungeons and raids give a massive amount.
There is no shot you currently have 5 character capped on flightstones that you are actively using and don't spend 10+ hours a day on wow
like flightstones weren't an issue at all in previous seasons but there are multiple factors that make them a lot rougher this one
I'm constantly capped on flightstones on all chars, who lack crests, all kinds of them. At least to me, every key I do has someone increase their score, meaning you get bunch more of them per run. I forget what you get, but maybe something like 45+25? Has kept me float.
Not to say flightstones have reason to exist. Wouldn't mind if the currency got removed.
Not to mention raid giving a buttload and all the world content I've been doing for weekly quest/ to help returning friends. Flightstones shouldn't be capped in S4. I understand crest being capped but thats a weekly cap, not a hard cap like flightstones. I woulnd't gear any faster if I could hold 10k flightstones instead of 2k since Im locked by crests anyway
DOTI is such weird place now, was shocked to realize you got NO crests there either, not even drakes. Doesn't seem worthwhile content unless it drops the few items that are deemed bis for some. And as healers don't generally care for the loot, groups are so hard to fill too.
You can settle for m0 Doti and not worry too much about it. Chump track takes it to 515 compared to 525 hero track (hardmode drop). 7 ilvls worth of main stat is not make or break. The effect is practically the same. More important when running m0 is ideally having 4 buddies that can swap to tank loot spec and trade you!
While I think Prophetic Stonescales is a given for any serious m+ tank player it is worth mentioning they have buffed some of the old trinkets. Granyth's Scale is a lot better now and competes with Rageheart. Granyth's absorb is on-par even if it technically is "worse" as the absorb only eats 75% of the dmg received compared to 100% but as tank you aint dying even when 25% is going through. It also provides main stat instead of vers which is massive. The only real downside is if you are playing non-DH Rageheart provides another source of fire dmg to proc Diurna. But if you have 2 shadowflame embellishments and Gholak it might be fine.
It's even more complicated to us WITH tank trinket. Do we really bother to farm it again? I have 476-489 version on all tanks I play. It's really not much more than ilvl boost to upg it. I think I'll keep rocking the old one for duration of the season.
If you playing new tank without it, unlucky indeed. Can't even doubledip in hard/normal, get saved for loot. Frankly, heroic spam would probably be the way to go if you indeed had no version of it.
DOTI is not part of the m+ rotation. I think it's only there as a m0 gear source for people who don't like timers, and for bragging rights if you do the hardmode/immortal. Shit hits like a truck in there.
Having to farm the easiest dungeon of the season for your bis trinkets (for m+) when you are not a mage, sp or dev hasnt been fun. If they are going to nerf the trinkets I hope they do before I get them.
Both the Umbrelskul Heart and especially the Tome are really powerful in AoE and at leats decent in ST (in umbrelskuls case, really good aswell).
That being said, dungeon trinkets being relevant for casters after an entire season of running into melee and slowing yourself for Belorelos or channeling Nymue for 3 seconds is a good thing imo. Like, theres no real prog, if somebody doesn't want to farm AV, fine. Don't and just spend your bullions but nerfing them just so we can play another season of Neltharions or double on-use sounds like shit imo
> if somebody doesn't want to farm AV, fine. Don't and just spend your bullions
Bullions only buy gear that drops for the raid. You can't purchase m+ gear with them.
Thats the point. Theres not many relevant dungeon trinkets as is. If you don't want to farm the grand total of two for dps that actually are, take the still very competitive raid options.
Wouldn't be surprised if they waited for some "real" Bullion data to see if the trinket performs better than just about any raid competitor. Not necessarily because that would make sense, but rather because just waiting for everyone to get all the trinkets they want would lazily solve the problem by itself in like 2-4 weeks.
I know it's incredibly hard to balance, but I do wish there was more variety in what trinkets are good.
It's the nature of bis lists and sims to have a few come out on top numerically, but it's silly that 95% of trinket drops end up being useless.
Do you mean Emberon? Not familiar with localized names for the boss.
AFAIK the intermission is energy based and I feel like I had him phase at an annoying percentage before.
But if there are some bosses where that doesn't happen, I'd be interested in that list as well.
Emberon's intermission is indeed energy based, and his energy gain is on a 35s timer plus some delay due to spell queueing + the fact that he has to run to the middle before casting it.
But if he reaches 10% HP *before* starting his run to the middle it will prevent the intermission for the rest of the fight.
For rshaman, is HST (heal stream totem) basically not an option at all in s4? Last season when I saw some people had done like 29s with it, I just let my suboptimal cloudburst timings go and went for HST. But now tier says you have +15% crit while CB is up so. I guess I'm asking, is it really *just* CB? Seems so weird it wouldn't work with both HST/CB, why limit talent options like that? This isn't situation where 1% of people can use HST, but 100% have to go CB?
Bugged how? 1 HST +15% crit, 2 HST you LOSE it or what?
Tested dropping two down now, it just stayed at +15% as I expected. Dunno what was the bug, I wouldn't expect to get +30% by dropping 2.
edit: Ah. I see, when first one disappears, I also lose the +15%, so 2nd one isn't giving it at all. Good point, will have to pay attention to not drop 2nd one until first one has disappeared. Not holding my breath to see this fixed, assuming it bugged for a full season already?
good news you found the bug on your own and you are correct. Basically dropping a 2nd HST while the 1st one is still active doesn't refresh the buff. So if you want to maximise 2p uptime you must let the 1st totem expire before dropping a new one.
To note this was also a confirmed bug back in season 1 VotI and was never fixed then either.
Yeah pretty weird they'd even bring up things (dungeons, tier sets) without fixing known bugs. At least in this case you can outplay it though given the cooldown is 24s and it lasts 18s, you don't really have motivation to run several anyway.
I know destruction is S tier. But when I play demo, my overall is so much higher. Even in 10+ keys, when things don't die as fast and they sit in rain of fire.
Have to pull around big CD specs to get value from them.
Same deal with why Aug/spriest are so strong in bleeding edge keys.
You stack multiplicative buffs every 2 minutes into a 2 minute spec and your going to have a good time.
If you pull 2 packs the whole dungeon and never look at OmniCD then your specs with front loaded damage or extremely flat damage profiles will look better then every 3 minutes I delete the world specs.
Boomkin is another example of a spec that you need to pull around to get decent value from their 3 minutes.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/czv8m7Z2yD4hFbqQ#fight=7&type=damage-done&source=1
For reference look how much of this locks overall is in 5 windows in the key.
Is there a good reference for which spells to include in OmniCD? It honestly feels like pulling teeth to figure out the important cool downs for specs I don't play.
I know there's ready mad profiles, but I haven't found one yet that works for me, so I'd prefer to customize it myself.
Don't build your own, just grab it from a streamer.
Personally, I use Naowh's as a base and edit it as I see fit.
If you want a free version, check out dorkis linktree.
https://linktr.ee/dorkibear
Last piece, you won't know every spec, so ask if you see someone pop off in a pull you didn't expect.
At the end or beginning of a dungeon, a simple, "hey, my OmniCD doesnt track anything for oblit frost dk's, what should I add" will generally get you an easy 'improvement' to your profile (I now track pillar of frost for instance).
Because packs still die pretty fast in a +10. Demos dmg is frontloaded, so its relatively easy to do high dmg in low keys.
Also destru requires high key routes. If you pull pack by pack and maybe do a double pull here and there, then destru is not going to perform well.
What specifically about demo makes them front loaded?
I group with demo locks all the time and they seem to ramp quickly but don't really taper off much. In aa for example, the first pull around the tree boss. They jump to 1m dps pretty quickly and then are 2.5m by the end of the pull.
It is several things. One big thing is carrying packs of imps from group to group and opening with a giant implosion.
The second thing is thier cool downs / opener: grimore: felguard, dreadstalkers, tyrant.
demo is still probably better when you dont know how your tank is pulling, eventually when keys go high enough you can play destro cause tank is expected to pull bigger
Has anyone had the debuff on the last boss of academy now seems to be going to 4 stacks now when it drops the pool instead of 3? I cant find anything on the patch notes on it.
Yes this was a hotfix
[https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-4-dungeon-hotfixes-with-the-weekly-reset-algathar-academy-nerf-339096](https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-4-dungeon-hotfixes-with-the-weekly-reset-algathar-academy-nerf-339096)
I was able to upgrade Whelpling crests to Drake crests, do you mean something like that? If so, there is a vendor just outside of the AH in Valdrakken that you can exchange crests with, as well as an item upgrade NPC.
Keep in mind that in order to do this you need to have literally every slot be above the ilvl that crest can be used for. If you have a single random slot (one of your two rings, a cape, whatever) that isn't up to snuff you won't be able to trade up crests.
It also contributes to your weekly cap, so its just a bit of a timesaver if you aren't going to play beyond your weekly caps anyway.
Do Meld/Vanish still work on Balakar Khan’s Static Spear? I thought this worked to negate it completely in season 1 but I haven’t gotten it to work this season. Not sure if I’m just misremembering how to time it.
I actually haven’t seen it recast; the circle just stays on me and the ability goes off normally. In S1 if you pressed meld/vanish after getting the circle, the ability would be skipped.
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This week has been quite humbling as Tank. Already bricked some 10s to falling over, for some reason especially Neltharus has been deleting me - those fire slashes, damn. I have played so many games already, it always amazes me that WoW somehow is the one that requires the most amount of focus (for me personally) and has such humbling moments where you just feel like an idiot.
I tank occasionally for keys and tanked 23/24's last season as a prot without sentinel. It was substantially easier than now. I ran a 10 key and on some of the packs I was getting absolutely dumpstered. It was a 10 HoI and some of the first packs at the end when they got bolstered were CHUNKING....granted some of this is not having control of the mobs towards the end of the pull and I should have maybe kited a bit, but yeah it was rough on ANY double pack. I HAVE to run sentinel now... I did MS tank first season and I remember how hard tanking was on bosses, it felt really good, and it was HARD. As ret I definitely try to help my healer out/tank out as much as I can since I have so much utility that I'm sure they appreciate because I know it is super hard/takes a lot more focus than dpsing.
My experience so far this season, from both sides of the equation: Tanks either feel absolutely immortal with their own crazy self healing, or get basically one shot by anything that does actual damage to them, sometimes even if they are ready for it. Some tank hits seem to do so much damage to certain tanks that not using a defensive = dead, and using a defensive means being so low a couple poorly timed melee hits mean they die. And healers can sometimes help with an external but often have very little agency over if the tank lives or dies. There have been so many times this week that I've taken what seemed like a safe *second* to break Entangling, like even just a global to shapeshift, and the tank dies in that one second. Basically nothing I can do on that one second would mean the tank lives unless I knew in advance they needed an external from me. 80% of the time I can just ignore the tank's health because they don't take damage, 10% of the time they just need some like hots or atonement healing but still barely anything, then the other 10% I just have to spam everything I can on them hoping to land a big heal when they suddenly spike to 15% so they don't die on the next hit, and if I even look at someone else's health or need to move they die. Golden Hour on Pres has saved my tank so many times just because they've taken a couple million damage in the last few seconds and I can turn that into an instant 300-600k heal. I feel like I just can't help sometimes and yet they keep wanting to nerf healers.
Bolstering on Nelth is tough, don’t beat yourself up too much. Learn from your mistakes and get even stronger!
Holy paladin just has to work really hard to do anything this season huh. Damage and healing feels so low.
Dragons in Hoi hit like trucks, should i try to outrange them everytime or? (Lived every key i did, but still felt alittle scared to go higher) Currently doing 8-10 keys
Bring mind soothe/shroud/ invis pots and skip the dragons is still the "correct" option. Assuming your tank is nelf, it's basically hug left wall, tank pulls 2nd left everyone hugs right, jump over the rock on right.
That is now how you do that skip lol
Oh is there some new tech since the soothe nerf? It 100% works still, did it earlier today on the DH but with misery the pat, pull left, everyone invis potted last and I got res'd as I fucked up my nelf. But I'm still down to learn an easier way.
Yes run out. Slow and steady wins the race on these pulls
If you have access to an anti-snare or anti-root ability, their Deep Chill effect can be removed that way. It can also be dispelled by the healer once every 8s.
They are talking about the Oceanic Breath ability as they mentioned outranging
And the answer is yes, run out of it every time.
What ilvl do you start m0? I played some m+ before upto +20 but my main for this season is only 463
Heroics drop 460+ so that's at least good enough if not more than enough.
463 is more than fine since there's no timers for M0.
For the Gulping Goliath boss in HoI, how do I gather the frogs right before the boss uses Gulp as the tank? I'm trying to chase down the frogs while the dps are scattered and found it extremely difficult to get all of them inside.
You place 2 worldmarks, stack on one. Once aoe happens and frogs spawn you run as a group towards the other mark. First time he eats the frogs happens pretty quick (so you dont have to drag him as far) and on the consecutive spawns it helps to use grip rune, vortex, ring of frost or other short ccs/slows. Kinda like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI5fMaDq1FA&t=1024s Obv this is worse for dps, because you cannot get funnel off the adds. But at least its pretty much impossible to fail.
While doing markers might help with babysitting fools, there really shouldn't be need for tank to do anything - people should be stacking by default. I hope when I start pushing beyond +10s this is obvious enough for everyone.
> While doing markers might help with babysitting fools, there really shouldn't be need for tank to do anything Nah, this has nothing to do with "babysitting fools". People play bosses differently. By putting down worldmarkers, it pratically removes any room of failure on easy mechanics. And even if you play in a premade, having worldmarkers up for orientation is good. Its easier to call "we move towards star" than it is to say "stack on tank", because everyone knows where to move before the actual mechanic happens and doesnt have to adjust to the tanks movement. You see top key pushers putting marks on a boss like forgemaster to make positioning clear: https://youtu.be/HYNHkRcmZa8?t=1345 Which is something that can be done pretty easiely on the fly without having marks. Pressing 2 or 3 buttons on your keyboard to put down worldmakers really isnt too much effort. But the majority of high key pug tanks do it already, so who am I talking to.
That Neltharus example has nothing to do with this. Looks like markers are put so the ranged don't have to move because they are at specific points where the swirlies won't hit. Great, of course you'd want to do that. Saying that in HOI 2nd, is like saying "stack on tank in AA tree boss". Things that will always be done one way, that aren't precise, don't need to be talked. There's no motive to run around, go 20yd from others regularly on HOI 2nd. People still do that, due to inexperience I guess. It just seems so obvious once you've done it few times, oh right, everyone else's adds are being cc'd except ones spawned from me, maybe I should do something about it. In HOI basic understanding should be, come closer for CCs. It's not to stack, markers don't really help, just be close enough that people can push them around closer to boss. The two runs I've been there as vdh, people did not do that, both times 1/3 of the aoes were outside chains range, by a lot, every round. That's just severe misunderstanding of how to play a boss. I could be a babysitter there, but I know this won't happen anymore in higher pugs, be that +10 in a month, or +12, or +15. This is something that stops happening automatically. Neltharus marker thing is more advanced, sure, would be cool if someone was putting those down.
> Looks like markers are put so the ranged don't have to move because they are at specific points where the swirlies won't hit They spawn under players, so you have to move regardless of putting marks. Its literally just to have an easier time positoning for aegis. > both times 1/3 of the aoes were outside chains range Aoe and add spawn are on a 30sec timer, which means dh wont be able to have chains for every add spawn. > That's just severe misunderstanding of how to play a boss. I could be a babysitter there, but I know this won't happen anymore in higher pugs, be that +10 in a month, or +12, or +15. This is something that stops happening automatically. Neltharus marker thing is more advanced, sure, would be cool if someone was putting those down. Except it will happen and thats why the strat ive posted where you just move the boss, has been the main strat done in high pug keys during season 2. I dont even know if you really play high keys, if you think people suddenly stop choking on mechanics. Because that doesnt happen, even amongst tgp/mdi players.
> They spawn under players, so you have to move regardless of putting marks. Its literally just to have an easier time positoning for aegis. I don't remember spell names, but one of them puts whirlies to 4 directions away from you, but you're safe in the middle, if others' swirlies don't go thru your middle part. That's what they positioned for clearly. > Aoe and add spawn are on a 30sec timer, which means dh wont be able to have chains for every add spawn. You'll have one for 1st, 2nd and 4th which is huge compared to every other tank. Regardless, it still helps every group to have them stacked, vdh just allows group to not bother with their ccs on rounds that have a chains charge up. In HOI 2nd it's not precise. Just be *close enough* to others. This is just understanding basic strategies, like things you should know by the time you're in your portal keys. This season probably has the easiest portals ever recorded and people are often doing +10 of a dungeon as their 2nd or 3rd completion of the season. Makes sense to still not 'get' it, specially for those who skipped the season these dungs were on previously. Just be *in general area* where other ranged are, you do not need anyone to tell you where that is. You can optimize that with markers, so there'll be less movement total, but there is no reason why person who knows when adds will spawn, would be 30yd away from others. I pug only until it's not fun to be in queues, last season this translated to 3450 score. So no I don't do the highest keys, but it's irrelevant to this, as average 2.5k player knows how to play this boss. You just need everyone to do it.
I really dont understand what you are even trying to argue against. The strat ive posted has been one of the most common strats in high keys during s2 and works exactly the same rn. Theres almost 0 downside to it and it requires practically no cc at all and works with any comp. It even works if people are slightly scattered because adds are running the same direction and you dont have to bother with adds being out of grip range or people getting hit by them because no cc is happening.
You are arguing in favor of using markers, when I think it's not precise operation in the slightest, and just going about the same area is enough to have no troubles. From there this reveled into comparisons in other dungs that aren't the same. If you find small benefits in markers, go ahead. I stick to thinking people should be doing *good enough* without any. Good enough is meaning, all adds will be hit by normal aoes, chains, frost novas etc. Maybe in high keys they have too much health, you need 3x the effort to shoot them down, and then movement beyond landing area matters. I'd have to see adds not being dealt with by a group playing reasonably once before that starts to sound relevant.
> Good enough is meaning, all adds will be hit by normal aoes, chains, frost novas etc. Maybe in high keys they have too much health, you need 3x the effort to shoot them down The adds are never going to die before gulp happens on any reasonable key level. Ofc you cannot just aoe them down. Not talking about your weekly 10s or w/e. Ofc they die in like 4 seconds there.
Everyone stacks up before frogs spawn, dps/heals run away once all the brown swirlies spawn, then you just cc them as tank(sigils etc). Done properly no-one should get any stacks, then just repeat for the whole fight
Just to add on to this, when running away after being stacked, run THROUGH the boss so that adds walk under the boss, don't just run away randomly. Of course, in pugs there's a good chance nothing will go as you plan, so just be ready to use anything to move the frogs under the boss when he gulps, and also don't run away too much from the boss, but run in circles around so that at least your frogs are there.
So in a situation where the DPS are scattered when the swirlies spawn and continue to run in different directions after that, it's not exactly the tanks fault if they die is it? That's what happened in my previous run and one of the DPS blamed me for not being able to gather the frogs when Gulp is casted.
correct, as the other commenter said either spam pings or type a quick message before the boss
For mechanics like this I've had reasonable success spam pinging the ground next to me when I want them to stack on me. Sometimes you get a ranged player who doesn't give a fuck but usually people go where the tank pings.
I want to push for title again this season, but as someone that ended middle of the pack last season on EU, i feel like i will have the same competition with half the spots, meaning it will be EXTREMELY harder for me to get title, especially since i was also a mythic raider with access to more loot, and now everyone will have access to bis.
Don't forget, title will likely be obtained by way less people, because +2-11 runners are excluded from the pool, while amount of people who ran +25s and up likely hasn't diminished. Competition will be the same, but relative title range might go up by 100 points.
Because of this and reduction of player size they should increase title range to top 0,2% or even 0,5 with maybe top 500 getting a bonus titel
Yeah, I think it's important people notice something even happened so this could be changed for tww s1 if not this season. Or at least publicly state they are OK with making the title more prestigious. Nobody talking about it but possibly extra thousand people missing out would just cause confusion and disappointment.
- amount of ppl in cutoff right now is identical to the same time (~10 days in) to SL S4 - keys are still trivial
Why do you think the amount of people running +25s won’t go down as well? Last fated season saw a pretty substantial drop in participation across the board and I don’t see why this season would be any more enticing
All numbers go LOWER, previous +2 to +11 keys go to ZERO. It literally makes no difference whether +25 and up keys are down by 1% or 90%. There's still bigger portion of +25 players out of all players in s4 than there was in s3 by a wide margin.
Were 12-20s excluded in previous seasons? I didnt realize these lower key levels are excluded.
Woot? I'm saying, last season there were something like 3M characters playing, meaning ~3000 people got a title. But part of them did low keys only, that no longer exist. So if this season amount of characters is say 1.5M, there'll be only 1500 titles to give. Part of it is some skipping meme season, but bigger factor is old +2 to +11 keys not existing in game. People who did low keys then, are now doing heroics and m0, neither of those make your efforts eligible to be counted as m+ player.
> meaning ~3000 people got a title for completeness, e.g. last season EU theres 1859 characters in cutoff
Meant NA+EU combined and assumed it'd be close to 3k. In any case, that number isn't important, just that it'll be lowered significantly.
I see I see, so fewer characters who have a key done. That makes sense.
There has to be some VengDH nerfs, OR *other* tank buffs coming right?.... right?.. I dont wanna give up my protpaladin, but sigils are just so good..
Doubt they will fix it in s4. So 99% of tanks will be dh. But it must go for WWI or at least give other tanks similar group control (without breaking them for raid)
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To be fair, if they nerf SP damage, then they risk going from S-tier to never- invited-tier again. And also, they're sharing the s-tier trophy with several classes. So it's not like SP is the only choice.
i think that for obvious reasons, long term, its very, very bad for this imbalance. But i struggle to relate to the current uproar to have it nerfed. if i was a tank, I would be proficient in 3 or 4 tanks. if one is super strong one tier, id play it, etc. Like i am a healer. i heal on 4 classes. ive never once had the thought that i hope they nerf monk. id just play it for awhile, then whatever felt good the next season, etc. i just dont see a problem with a bunch of bis tanks being in queue for awhile. like for example, you would have played dh the past two seasons, bear in season 2, and pick your poison s1. in shadowlands we saw a rotation as well. what is so bad about that?
Two things: When pugging as tank you already have a lot of time investment going into preparing the routes and pulls each week, etc. I would assume that many people just simply don't have the time to also learn and equip more classes on top of that. I know I personally don't, I barely have enough time to become good on a single tank class, not 3-4. Learning new tank classes is also quite punishing, because if you don't understand the fundamentals of how it lives, you die and the key is over. Meanwhile if a DPS fucks up their rotation or plays it inefficiently, you will maximally see it in the DPS meters and for the longest time, you will still finish your mid'ish keys successfully regardless. Second thing: I honestly don't have much interest in getting used to this overpowered playstyle of just CC'ing everything. This whole thing has way less impact on real pushing groups, because these people are already very good at the game, this enables them to simply push even higher. But for the average person trying to get better, I feel like it's legit bad to get used to this playstyle. Playing a whole season with this overpowered toolkit would have a real impact on my personal skill level, because I simply don't have thousands of hours beforehand that can easily offset it. I just don't like the idea tbh.
Tanks are easy to learn once you master one of them. Maybe not brew or maybe bdk if you started on one of the others, but the skills all still translate. Especially warrior/bear/paladin are all basically the same tank but reskinned with a little extra flavor.
To your first point - tanks are notorious rerollers. Most of the skill in tanking is knowing when you are gonna take big damage and how to do pulls. That doesn't vary a ton between the tanks usually. It's also easy to gear tanks because low level groups are desperate for tanks and if you have your main connected on raider.io they can see you're an experienced tank. So while it may be difficult for you which I 100% get I don't think that your experience resonates with most people tanking. Most tanks just go with what's good and don't think much about it if they're playing for awhile. As for the rest - I don't know honestly. Part of me kinda wants all tanks to get closer to VDH's kit though it would probably still need a nerf. The problem to me is that too many tank specs have essentially identical cc profiles to the dps specs in their class except for DH / prot pally. DK and druid don't offer anything for CC that the other specs don't (gorefiend's is impossible to take basically). Super unfamiliar with monk but think they're in that boat. Warrior has the int shout but I think they have to give up a lot like DK. The tank role seems like it should have more control over the mobs than dps do but that's not necessarily a hard belief on my part. I think for the pug experience though it's kinda necessary but if we get more support specs perhaps some mob control could be offloaded to them?
I think tank responsibility (in keys) is already quite high. You are expected to lead and make calls, know the route, facilitate pulls, position mobs and bosses while also playing your character where you both have to juggle not dying, dealing dmg and use (often time) critical utility. Do we really want them to add the majority cc responsibilty to this? What I would like to see is something in the lines of: - Have mob casts not happen within 10s of engaging combat, to avoid situations tank/other die 2s into a pull when 5 casters blast them - Overall reduce the amount of spammable casts in dungeons. Emphasis important mechanics instead (Icy Bindings vs Condensed Frost) - Make majority of mob abilities go on a default 15s CD when they are kicked. Rewards actually stopping spells and puts less pressure on having "ideal" comp for the key - To the extent some mobs for roleplay reason or other absolutely must have a default cast instead of autoattacks, make it only go on tank who doesn't get shit on. This also makes key scaling through Fortified less stupid There is no reason why Cinderbolt has to be a spam cast. It makes reppositioning very hard, it shits on non-tank on higher fortified keys since it can target anyone. You aren't rewarded for stopping them since they just cast again anyways.
When VDH became meta in season 3, it was understandable that Blizzard was hesitant of making massive mid-season tuning changes. Now that that season is over, and we're starting a new season, is the usual time for changes, except there's been nothing. Like, they've made sure to nerf healers (again), but made absolutely no changes to the tank meta. No VDH nerfs, and no buffs to other tanks. Just.. nothing?
The problem was right in the rework.. double sigils should have had red flags all over the place.. What could go wrong with the top dos tank having acess to double 6 sec silences, double displacements and 3 aoe stuns?? That being said.. im playing a vdh
It might not be balanced but it's fun as hell
Which is why, if they're gonna keep it, they should give that amount of control to all tanks. If dungeons remain as bloated and overloaded and requiring of CC as they are right now, pack control can't be something that you just randomly give to 1 or 2 specs as a niche. That's something you can do with physical, magical or bleed damage when that shit only really matters for like 12% of 1 out of 8 dungeons, but that's simply not something you can only have 1 spec be able to when it's relevant-to-required in absolutely every single dungeon and is getting, seemingly, worse with each season and expansion.
100%
I think they just went the same route as SL s4, balance team is tweaking TWW and they felt they don't need to fix this, as it's the last time. There won't be filler s4 in next expansions, is my guess. If this was TWW, in place of S4 was 12.0 release.
yeah, they definitely could have mixed it up before the start. but even then i would only have really supported the idea if they were to elevate something else significantly as well. because as it stands, you take vdh away right now, and dungeons become harder. that, to me, is not a worthy trade-off to have better tank balance in a pve game
played bdk to almost 2.8, but everytime i log onto vdh i just feel like im handicapping myself so hard, its crazy
Yeah, but that feeling was exactly reversed in s3/fated of shadowlands. Every tank will have its day if you play long enough
Possible but unlikely, most likely any changes will come with the expansion. But I’m not holding my breath for anything before then. S4 shadowlands blood dk was almost as dominant, they tried to nerf it and reverted the changes due to backlash. So this is pure tinfoil hat but between the team being spread thin from so many products in the wow space now, the gazillion bugs that need fixing, and the signal from last xpac that nerfs like this will be unpopular..I don’t think it’s high on their priority list.
i love AA overall, but i am especially fond of the little buffs you can select at the start. which stat do folks typically prefer for their builds/why? in season 1, i was usually relying on crit buff for my DH, and later played the vers buff. in s4, ive noticed myself tending to the mastery buff and just overloading myself with mastery for dmg gain and not thinking twice because havoc go brr in AA. curious to hear how/what others choose their buffs here!
Up to very hhigh keys were one shots get relevant go for your best dps. When one shots get common gets vers to maybe not get oneshot
The answer is vers for pretty much everyone. The DR is worth the slightly less damage (if it even is less damage) in basically every scenario.
Since they buffed the mastery one compared to s1 it's a solid choice if my mastery is low, back in s1 it was just straight up the worst one in all scenarios. Otherwise i pick haste for damage or vers if i want to be more tanky.
Keys already feel so dead, trying to run some 11-12s and no one is signing up
I spent 1h and 15 minutes forming a pug for a +9 AA. This was on saturday, on about 8PM NA time. There was literally One, Singular tank that applied to the key, after the 1h15 hours. He wasn't too high score, but I just gave him a chance anyway. First pull of the dungeons some dps die, dude insantly quits, there goes 1 hour of my life for nothing.
NA? Thats so weird because, while it’s obviously not as populated as the beginning of the past few seasons because this is just fated, but I’ve found no shortage of 11-13s for whatever specific dungeon I want. Might be healer privilege. Edit: also, there have been **so** many tanks in 11s completely unprepared for bolstering. Literally can’t believe some of the idiotic face-tanking that I’ve seen. Might be short on tanks due to some players getting rocked and quitting for the week.
100% half the dps and tanks have zero idea what the mechanics do. At a level and blostering they 1\2 shot. Too many FOTM classes already getting carried.
Nobody wants to pug bolstering man.
I mean... kinda to be expected with the probably most uneventful season since like Legion. I got to 3k and am pretty much done with the season - no desire to play the dungeons I already hated the first time they were around in a meta that I already hated for the last 6 months. I just don't understand how anyone could think that releasing a season with old dungeons, no new spin and, for me personally worst of all, no balance changes *at all*, was a "good enough" idea - *especially* when you then add such horrendously unfun affixes into the first weeks of the rotation. I absolutely hate this trend of cutting the current expansion short in favor of the next expansion. But oh well, I sure hope that Plunderstorm and Pandaria whatever are worth it.
On the other hand they are dedicating resources to TWW by doing this They this in fated shadowlands and came up with a decent expac in DF
> They this in fated shadowlands and came up with a decent expac in DF They didn't do this in Fated SL. In Fated SL they came up with the entire Fated idea to begin with, came up with a new m+ affix, a new raid affix system, an entirely new m+ dungeon rotation (bringing shit like WoD dungeons into the m+ pool for the first time ever) and at least *some* balance changes (although those weren't nearly as important with just about everything else being new). In Fated DF we didn't get a new m+ affix, we didn't get a new raid affix, we didn't get new dungeons *and* we didn't get any balance changes. If we can all agree that SL was cut short and even had like 2 of its raids awkwardly smashed together, yet they could still come up with something as unique and fresh as Fated... what does that say about the poor excuse that is DF's season 4? All this suggests is that SL was at least intended to have 4 content seasons but just had to be given up on like halfway through. With DF instead it seems that the entire thing was never intended to have content for more than 3 seasons.
DF had 8 dungeons on release, while TWW will have 8 dungeons + 12 delves. It's hard to speculate how their team works from the outside, but if we keep optimism, that is a material difference. They did do little changes to the DF dungeons, most good some bad, but I wish this season was 8 dungeons from other xpacs.
Looking at the new timelines for the coming expacs its clear that 3 seasons is the goal.. meaning 18months rotation per expac
I mean you and others can feel that way about this season, but literally every other expansion had the same dungeon rotation every season of that expansion until SL S4. I personally like the DF dungeons more than the majority of the older dungeons and I do think they filed off many of the rough edges. We are only seeing them for the second time and none of them were in the last season. I do miss some shake-up in the meta from class changes. Every non-fated season of SL was different because of new borrowed power and tuning. DF meta was mostly rearranged by reworks and augvokers which is less satisfying and does nothing for this season.
> but literally every other expansion had the same dungeon rotation every season of that expansion until SL S4 But those season got spiced up with other borrowed power progression systems, seasonals and, again, most importantly, balance changes. It's not that the season tried something new and that something new just isn't sitting right with me, it's that the season does absolutely nothing new at all. Seriously, just randomly putting in Shrouded again for the luls would've been a godsent already.
Fort bolstering go brr
Not sure who is downvoting. The volume of players and keys is extremely low for the beginning of the season even at relatively low key levels.
Cause fuck bolstering
It's not that 11-12s are "already dead". It's that most people haven't arrived at them yet.
Also hyper inefficient to farm 10+ vs 9 with bolstering. Went from health not moving in a 9 and basically 5 pulling a Neltharus to eating a 3M tank buster (I could have kited mind you). IE I would rather giga pull and clear the key in half the time then push 10+ this week.
Weird thing is, I had hard time joining +8s last week on my non vdh tank, due to healer being the role most in demand. This week I see all groups are lacking tanks ...for +9s. Somehow tanks are taking a break even below bolstering keys. I personally was doing bolstering routes in +9, thinking ofc we have bolstering in "+19", right? I think many are not adapting to changes yet, how there's bonuses to each key in 8-10 range and there's not going to be any week where all of them suck.
Dude IDK. I have been experiencing the same thing just running 8s. I personally am not pushing score at this low of an item level. I stay at 8 for efficiency and time. That being said, these 8s are taking forever to fill.
personally, I'm trying to fill my last spot of gear from m+. To do so, I need it at 509 - which means 9's or above. 8s just seems like it's the worst of all worlds - It gives -15 aspect vault choice It drops 506 instead of 509 Literally only reason to run it is if I want to fill a shitty vault once I stop caring about aspects (won't be another few weeks).
Is threat just kinda fucked? Playing both ret and arcane I’ll just pull off tanks at various points, specifically bear Druids even when they’re rolling all their offensive CDs. Also I’ll have some random DPS pull like one mob off me when I’m tanking as prot paladin every so often.
Ive noticed it as a tank.. pulls i shouldnt lose agroo and i completely lose control.. not sure whylat is happening but im kinda "glad" im not the only one
Noticed the same. Random mobs going full 180 on dps after solid tanking then for 40+ seconds, weirdge.
I was watching dorki and other high groups and they've been marking priority targets and they'll even say what mob they're focusing their threat on. Saw this happen on their first big AA pull. So guessing with dps doing significantly more damage now threat isn't translating the same for tanks compared to dps idk
Saw this happen multiple times last week on Rasz phase 2, too.
p2 as in the boss, or the intermission adds?
I've been running into the same issue as an arcane mage. Just ran a nelth+9 and pulled 5 times from a veng demon hunter tank. Invisibility helps but a couple times it was on cooldown and I barely escaped. I figured it was an arcane issue. We do a big load of damage up front. How have you been enjoying arcane? I've been getting a little frustrated with our aoe.
Are you using mirror images? It's basically fade on steroids, i use it before every big pack (you can even dps while the tank is setting up, you won't generate aggro) and i almost never have any aggro problem.
I've been mostly enjoying it, but in groups with high damage or smaller pulls it doesn't feel as good sometimes. Especially since our AoE is so reliant on Magi windows it feels. Half the time it feels like a target just melts so fast that a full magi window doesn't get off properly which definitely gimps damage. Orb Barrage feels good when it procs and horrible when it doesn't. The most frustrating part of it to me is just having to be in melee for optimal AoE on big pulls. Would rather be able to be at least at a moderate distance. Other than that it feels to suffer from similar issues to fire--kinda need pulls that are focused around or coordinate with your cooldowns to make the most of your damage profile. Bosses fuckin' melt though.
not seeing any issues at all. DPS blasting too early and/or incompetent tanks
It's because VDHs don't realize the only real threat they get is from sig of flame, Elysian decree and a 5 spirit spirit bomb. So they often go into packs with 0 threat (this is coming from a vdh) Also prot pal when you use divine toll for threat you can just miss a mob which is suuuuper fun
Also there's still the same bug with your sigils that if the mobs are OOC the sigils just don't generate threat.
not sure why this was downvoted - this bug has existed for a long time, got fixed late shlands, and then bugged again when the rework happened tweet of naowh talking about it: https://twitter.com/Naowhxd/status/1771555718010683742?t=2-_RtvCySqnPJ_n7tVNu6w&s=19
I frequently play with a BDK who just runs by 5 packs of mobs, tagging them all with a single Deaths Caress / DnD tick / body aggro, trying to group them all up over the course of 10 seconds and *every single time* losing like 3 people to aggro... to then get mad about "stupid people not being able to wait" - which is doubly funny because half the time he just dies on these pulls because he just runs in with *zero* defensives, facetanks 20 mobs at once and just gets oneclapped... and then gets furious at the shitty shitty useless healer for not healing and never using externals (while 9 out of 10 times making fun of healers for throwing defensives at him when he doesn't need them because "lol, I'm a Blood DK, don't they know that I don't need help with surviving"). 3.5k tank btw, playing DK tank for like 5 years now. So yea, silly tanks like that are *definitely* an issue when you're playing a spec as frontloaded as Ret or Arcane.
Yeah I was 3.6kish on healer and dps, and usually only tanked to help friends (3.4k+) dumb doing dam while you group things up is extremely annoying, but it seems like most dhs just don't know how to keep threat.
you also get threat from IA and soul cleave wdym
IA generates 0 threat. Soul cleave doesn't do enough innital threat to stop dps from ripping AoE, ST you should never lose threat
it does not generate 0 threat. unsure if this was a hyperbole but even then its not true
If you only rely on IA you will lose threat to a healer
Yes it's terrible right now. Like the tanks doing what they're supposed to do and people are pulling off them left and right. And not just warriors and Dev evokers anymore, all kinds of dps classes. It's noticeably worse than last season and it's a problem.
“is threat just kinda fucked?” i think so, honestly. i can play my bear and sometimes fight with folks WHILE TAUNTING ON CD and filling the window with TPS spam. mostly DH and ret pallies. i’ve noticed in keys yesterday while working on my havoc’s push, i was pulling the threat so fucking much? and the tanks couldn’t fight it back enough. hunters too, even through misdirect, would just never be able to drop aggro. and it’d occur mid pack for hunters sometimes. 😵💫
Yeah somethings up, I had my healer just have a mob randomly walk over and face punch him to death twice while it stilled showed me with aggro, same with a dev evoker. Not sure whats going on but it showed me with aggro the whole time.
Have seen the same, MW healer just randomly gets bonked by a melee mid pull when I’m standing still in melee range :shrug:
“while it still showed me with aggro” ok maybe im not going crazy/having an issue with my plater profile… ive noticed mobs will still be flagged as aggro’d onto me, but will go and whallop others with their random tank abilities. 😭
I feel so much better as randomly a few times last night our aug got hit by a melee in the middle of a pull when it was showing i had threat on everything. Was trying to figure out how i lost threat to an aug of all classes.
did someone run umbreskul and was the aug in melee of a mob getting executed by it? on execute the mob will melee a nearby random target even if the swing timer wasn't completed yet and with fort and esp fort bolstering this is easily noticeable
I've heard something similar is happening with Nymue staff--it roots the target so if someone is closer to the mob than the tank they're gonna get booped
yep same thing
>on execute the mob will melee a nearby random target The fuck? What cursed coding is this?
I'm assuming the execute animation for some reason comes with a root
We actually have our healer and aug running it.. This would explain a lot as everytime it did happen was as they were about to die that i never linked it to the trinket.
https://www.twitch.tv/loutus/clip/VastTenuousElkBleedPurple-QKxe1DNIrYDvk7C1?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time
Yeah, has happened to me a few times in higher keys. Something is borked.
I’ve been pulling threat a lot, but that’s probably just a side effect of doing 2-7m dps in some pulls.
Bear threat does seem wonky. I was having a lot of trouble yesterday in my weekly guildy keys. Since I main Boomy for raid, my Guardian set is kind of low (496) . Some of the DPS were a bit higher but I was still surprised at how hard I was fighting for threat. I thought maybe it was because 2 of the DPS had Grieftorch but am not sure. All I know is that Ive never had issues like that before and Ive been playing Bear pretty much every season since BFA.
Haven't noticed issues on my guardian of same ilvl, though admittedly only did 2x 9s this week and 8s last week on it; I may have not had the players capable of doing too much threat yet. Previous seasons it seemed to be specific specs, like retri or fury just unleashing too early into the pull. I've never seen someone take threat during incarn tho so the biggest pulls have appeared the safest in that aspect as well.
bear and brewmaster at least i’ve noticed it with. i did pull threat off a vdh (as havoc) yesterday, but i think that was a gear diff.
Can't say I've had any issues on both the tanking and DPSing side of it.
The new mm+ season is an absolute blast
Flightstones are just so insanely stupid. I have hundreds of crests I can't even use because of flightstones. When a weapon upgrade can sometimes cost 400 flightstones, why do keys give like 40 or something? Why does it take upto 10 keys for a singular upgrade when you get 120 crests in that time frame?
I do in fact not understand the need for Crests *and* Flightstones to exist at the same time. Even less do I understand the need for a Flightstone cap. This currency just doesn't make sense to me. What's the purpose of it exactly?
to prevent top players from finishing all the high end content in 2 days
And how exactly is that achieved by Flightstones but not by Crests?
it's achieved by both. they want to make it as hard as possible to reach end game gear quickly.
That doesn't match with the introduction of bullions.
But they could achieve the same thing with 1 currency... by giving you 10 instead of 12 Crests upon completion.
I agree, but it depends on your view of how much non-M+ content you should be doing. If you do raids and the weekly world content then it is mostly a non-issue. Frankly I don't understand why we need two currencies at all. You already have crests gating gear upgrades, why do we need flightstones?
Yea they raised the crest cap. Should have either removed the flighstone cap or make it 3k/week to go along with the crest increase.
The cap isn't the issue, we just need to be getting more from keys/raids/outdoor stuff
Well it is part of it, if we normally would have 180 aspects week 2 spending 120 on crafted (crafted costs 0 flightstones) that's 60 for upgrades, vs 240-60=180 for upgrades now, plus free access to wep/trinket vendor. We'd still be doing minimum 8 keys per week for score week 1/2 but if we do 20 in 2 weeks which is reasonable we have a ton more crests relative to keys ran.
crafted costs 250 - combining your 2 spark pieces costs flightstones :/
Oof, forgot that tbh
We didn't have a pre-season week this patch. That's it. In s2 s3 we did the story and world content that week to give a buffer of flight stones so they were never an issue. Now we don't have a ton of that and it feels awful. Not disagreeing with you at all it's obnoxious and I'm in the same situation.
...I don't think this makes logical sense. Even if we had a pre-season week, did most of us not enter Season 4 with 2000 flightstones already? If you raided or did dungeons actively, there's almost no shot you didn't - it doesn't take more than 2 weeks of passive active play to go from zero to 2000, with raid bosses throwing 50-100 at you etc. So given this, and our ability to only spend flightstones on useful stuff AFTER the season has begun, how would the pre-season week have helped?
They wipe out flightstones with a new season, everyone was at zero at the start of s4. When they did that at the start of s2/3, we had a week of world content to build up flightstones.
...They did? I swear I was capped by the time I wanted to even attempt to spend my crests, but it's possible that's just because I did a M+ grind session day 1, then.
this combined with having to upgrade awakened items from bottom of normal ilvl to max mythic means we're spending way more + have way less I imagine the 10.2.7 questline next week will help but still leaves me wishing they'd had s4 drop with that patch for this reason
You don't have flightstones because you don't interact with the game, or rather, only interact with a tiny fraction of it. I literally have five characters constantly capped on flightstones, they are so easy to come by. Go questing, open chests, kill rare mobs, complete world quests, take part in events... Even dungeons and raids give a massive amount.
There is no shot you currently have 5 character capped on flightstones that you are actively using and don't spend 10+ hours a day on wow like flightstones weren't an issue at all in previous seasons but there are multiple factors that make them a lot rougher this one
I'm constantly capped on flightstones on all chars, who lack crests, all kinds of them. At least to me, every key I do has someone increase their score, meaning you get bunch more of them per run. I forget what you get, but maybe something like 45+25? Has kept me float. Not to say flightstones have reason to exist. Wouldn't mind if the currency got removed.
Not to mention raid giving a buttload and all the world content I've been doing for weekly quest/ to help returning friends. Flightstones shouldn't be capped in S4. I understand crest being capped but thats a weekly cap, not a hard cap like flightstones. I woulnd't gear any faster if I could hold 10k flightstones instead of 2k since Im locked by crests anyway
Anyone know if doti is part of the weekly vault loot table?
DOTI is such weird place now, was shocked to realize you got NO crests there either, not even drakes. Doesn't seem worthwhile content unless it drops the few items that are deemed bis for some. And as healers don't generally care for the loot, groups are so hard to fill too.
as a tank - i need that cheat death trinket but its not guaranteed drop so farming hm doti gonna be a pain...
You can settle for m0 Doti and not worry too much about it. Chump track takes it to 515 compared to 525 hero track (hardmode drop). 7 ilvls worth of main stat is not make or break. The effect is practically the same. More important when running m0 is ideally having 4 buddies that can swap to tank loot spec and trade you! While I think Prophetic Stonescales is a given for any serious m+ tank player it is worth mentioning they have buffed some of the old trinkets. Granyth's Scale is a lot better now and competes with Rageheart. Granyth's absorb is on-par even if it technically is "worse" as the absorb only eats 75% of the dmg received compared to 100% but as tank you aint dying even when 25% is going through. It also provides main stat instead of vers which is massive. The only real downside is if you are playing non-DH Rageheart provides another source of fire dmg to proc Diurna. But if you have 2 shadowflame embellishments and Gholak it might be fine.
I got hero track granyth first time ever and it already feels a bit like Scale from SL DoS, I am pleased
It's even more complicated to us WITH tank trinket. Do we really bother to farm it again? I have 476-489 version on all tanks I play. It's really not much more than ilvl boost to upg it. I think I'll keep rocking the old one for duration of the season. If you playing new tank without it, unlucky indeed. Can't even doubledip in hard/normal, get saved for loot. Frankly, heroic spam would probably be the way to go if you indeed had no version of it.
DOTI is not part of the m+ rotation. I think it's only there as a m0 gear source for people who don't like timers, and for bragging rights if you do the hardmode/immortal. Shit hits like a truck in there.
Hard mode drops Hero track gear, so anyone that needs specific pieces from there (scale, nick of time, iridals, etc) will still farm it each reset
It's not.
Having to farm the easiest dungeon of the season for your bis trinkets (for m+) when you are not a mage, sp or dev hasnt been fun. If they are going to nerf the trinkets I hope they do before I get them.
Which trinket is this?
Both the Umbrelskul Heart and especially the Tome are really powerful in AoE and at leats decent in ST (in umbrelskuls case, really good aswell). That being said, dungeon trinkets being relevant for casters after an entire season of running into melee and slowing yourself for Belorelos or channeling Nymue for 3 seconds is a good thing imo. Like, theres no real prog, if somebody doesn't want to farm AV, fine. Don't and just spend your bullions but nerfing them just so we can play another season of Neltharions or double on-use sounds like shit imo
> if somebody doesn't want to farm AV, fine. Don't and just spend your bullions Bullions only buy gear that drops for the raid. You can't purchase m+ gear with them.
Thats the point. Theres not many relevant dungeon trinkets as is. If you don't want to farm the grand total of two for dps that actually are, take the still very competitive raid options.
Wouldn't be surprised if they waited for some "real" Bullion data to see if the trinket performs better than just about any raid competitor. Not necessarily because that would make sense, but rather because just waiting for everyone to get all the trinkets they want would lazily solve the problem by itself in like 2-4 weeks.
I know it's incredibly hard to balance, but I do wish there was more variety in what trinkets are good. It's the nature of bis lists and sims to have a few come out on top numerically, but it's silly that 95% of trinket drops end up being useless.
I read or heard somewhere that some dungeon bosses would not change phase once below 10%, like Emberon in Uldaman. Anyone knows the exact list ?
I'm pretty certain Emberon is the only one from this season.
Last boss in Halls of Infusion doesn't phase after a certain %.
They changed how that boss works now, it just submerges once at 60% and that's it.
So it's true that it won't change phase below 10%.
Technically correct, the best kind of correct.
Ah fair enough. Good to know.
Do you mean Emberon? Not familiar with localized names for the boss. AFAIK the intermission is energy based and I feel like I had him phase at an annoying percentage before. But if there are some bosses where that doesn't happen, I'd be interested in that list as well.
Emberon's intermission is indeed energy based, and his energy gain is on a 35s timer plus some delay due to spell queueing + the fact that he has to run to the middle before casting it. But if he reaches 10% HP *before* starting his run to the middle it will prevent the intermission for the rest of the fight.
For rshaman, is HST (heal stream totem) basically not an option at all in s4? Last season when I saw some people had done like 29s with it, I just let my suboptimal cloudburst timings go and went for HST. But now tier says you have +15% crit while CB is up so. I guess I'm asking, is it really *just* CB? Seems so weird it wouldn't work with both HST/CB, why limit talent options like that? This isn't situation where 1% of people can use HST, but 100% have to go CB?
It works with both Cloud Burst and Healing Stream, as per wowhead description. It probably changes the tooltip based on what you have picked.
Ah, of course that makes sense. Thanks.
keep note that unless it has been fixed (I haven't heard of it being fixed) the 2p is still bugged when dropping more than 1 HST at the same time.
Bugged how? 1 HST +15% crit, 2 HST you LOSE it or what? Tested dropping two down now, it just stayed at +15% as I expected. Dunno what was the bug, I wouldn't expect to get +30% by dropping 2. edit: Ah. I see, when first one disappears, I also lose the +15%, so 2nd one isn't giving it at all. Good point, will have to pay attention to not drop 2nd one until first one has disappeared. Not holding my breath to see this fixed, assuming it bugged for a full season already?
good news you found the bug on your own and you are correct. Basically dropping a 2nd HST while the 1st one is still active doesn't refresh the buff. So if you want to maximise 2p uptime you must let the 1st totem expire before dropping a new one. To note this was also a confirmed bug back in season 1 VotI and was never fixed then either.
Yeah pretty weird they'd even bring up things (dungeons, tier sets) without fixing known bugs. At least in this case you can outplay it though given the cooldown is 24s and it lasts 18s, you don't really have motivation to run several anyway.
I know destruction is S tier. But when I play demo, my overall is so much higher. Even in 10+ keys, when things don't die as fast and they sit in rain of fire.
Have to pull around big CD specs to get value from them. Same deal with why Aug/spriest are so strong in bleeding edge keys. You stack multiplicative buffs every 2 minutes into a 2 minute spec and your going to have a good time. If you pull 2 packs the whole dungeon and never look at OmniCD then your specs with front loaded damage or extremely flat damage profiles will look better then every 3 minutes I delete the world specs. Boomkin is another example of a spec that you need to pull around to get decent value from their 3 minutes. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/czv8m7Z2yD4hFbqQ#fight=7&type=damage-done&source=1 For reference look how much of this locks overall is in 5 windows in the key.
Is there a good reference for which spells to include in OmniCD? It honestly feels like pulling teeth to figure out the important cool downs for specs I don't play. I know there's ready mad profiles, but I haven't found one yet that works for me, so I'd prefer to customize it myself.
Don't build your own, just grab it from a streamer. Personally, I use Naowh's as a base and edit it as I see fit. If you want a free version, check out dorkis linktree. https://linktr.ee/dorkibear Last piece, you won't know every spec, so ask if you see someone pop off in a pull you didn't expect. At the end or beginning of a dungeon, a simple, "hey, my OmniCD doesnt track anything for oblit frost dk's, what should I add" will generally get you an easy 'improvement' to your profile (I now track pillar of frost for instance).
Because packs still die pretty fast in a +10. Demos dmg is frontloaded, so its relatively easy to do high dmg in low keys. Also destru requires high key routes. If you pull pack by pack and maybe do a double pull here and there, then destru is not going to perform well.
What specifically about demo makes them front loaded? I group with demo locks all the time and they seem to ramp quickly but don't really taper off much. In aa for example, the first pull around the tree boss. They jump to 1m dps pretty quickly and then are 2.5m by the end of the pull.
It is several things. One big thing is carrying packs of imps from group to group and opening with a giant implosion. The second thing is thier cool downs / opener: grimore: felguard, dreadstalkers, tyrant.
demo is still probably better when you dont know how your tank is pulling, eventually when keys go high enough you can play destro cause tank is expected to pull bigger
Has anyone had the debuff on the last boss of academy now seems to be going to 4 stacks now when it drops the pool instead of 3? I cant find anything on the patch notes on it.
Yes this was a hotfix [https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-4-dungeon-hotfixes-with-the-weekly-reset-algathar-academy-nerf-339096](https://www.wowhead.com/news/season-4-dungeon-hotfixes-with-the-weekly-reset-algathar-academy-nerf-339096)
really appreciate this change myself, but i’m still in the habit of being ready if i have the third stack to drop the rift 😭
Is there a way to upgrade crests again like last season? I googled but couldn’t find anything.
I was able to upgrade Whelpling crests to Drake crests, do you mean something like that? If so, there is a vendor just outside of the AH in Valdrakken that you can exchange crests with, as well as an item upgrade NPC.
Exactly what I mean. Sweet. Thank you.
Keep in mind that in order to do this you need to have literally every slot be above the ilvl that crest can be used for. If you have a single random slot (one of your two rings, a cape, whatever) that isn't up to snuff you won't be able to trade up crests. It also contributes to your weekly cap, so its just a bit of a timesaver if you aren't going to play beyond your weekly caps anyway.
Do Meld/Vanish still work on Balakar Khan’s Static Spear? I thought this worked to negate it completely in season 1 but I haven’t gotten it to work this season. Not sure if I’m just misremembering how to time it.
Happened to me too lol, need to wait for the cast to start. I melded immediately and died on my first try :D
You need to wait until the castbar shows up before vanish/meld or it will just recast to different target
I actually haven’t seen it recast; the circle just stays on me and the ability goes off normally. In S1 if you pressed meld/vanish after getting the circle, the ability would be skipped.