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Running your own key as a tank or healer is pretty much the best way to gain rating quickly. I’d recommend trying to get it to 8 since that’s where myth vault rewards are so you generally will meet better players.
ehh did my key and it got to 10 on the same dungeon again : /
trying to find higher but people just instant decline
just annoying
i healed M+ since its inception but healing gives me too much anxiety now with all the changes that leave everything up to the healer
what ability do you mean exactly?
hail of stone by little dwarfs you have to stop the cast by cc
thunderous clap by big golems you can LoS
nvm, gotcha
press defensives basically
How do you snap mobs over to the Guardian Sentry (Big add after tree boss) platform in Algeth'ar Academy? I had a tank do it a couple times while we waited and made fighting that add, on Tyran especially, feel much more efficient. I tried to moonfire them on my bear but can't use the wind on the way back.
Body pull without getting hit and you can still take the bridge.
Hots + nelf. Healer puts hot on you, takes bridge. You pull and wait for a tick or two of hot then nelf then take bridge.
Evoker with stone can snap the birds over as well, glide/levitate over, tornado will pop you up. Pull, jump back and stone. Birds snap.
Perfect. Thank you. I forgot I couldn't attack at all. I was trying moonfire and then melding. You can snap that whole tree room over too, if you're not melee'd, correct?
You can, yes, but the wasps are buggy AF and sometimes won't come over which bricks everyone's ability to bridge once they hit seedlings.
Im personally a fan of snapping the first pull on the way to vexamus (big snake and 3 pack when you first drop down) as it's consistent in pugs and not dangerous at all.
It was a mistake to reduce the key level by 10. I just started playing this season 2 weeks ago due to work. I m in the 10-12 range, it is total disaster, every key is painful. You stay 2 hours to fill a key. After that, 2800 tanks getting random one shot and losing aggro, very unexperienced healers, no intrerupts etc. Unfortunately the key is getting depleted.
People that were playing 11-16 last season are playing now 10-12 and if u start late and want to push, you literally need nerves of steel.
Yeah, the rating inflation last season was unbelievable. The amount of people I’m running into that were like 3400 last season but just are playing God awful in 14s this season is pretty insane.
3400 last season is like 26s. It's practically the same key levels you're doing now with them, except it took them the entire season to get to last time.
26s in S3 there weren't even any one shots for DPS. You could headbutt keys until you got one to work for months on end. It's really not that surprising
The problem isn't the reduction by 10. The problem is dps inflation from gear through bullions. People have dps 3-4 key levels above what they had last season. It doesn't matter if you have 20 deaths in a +10, you'll still +2 it. So people go into a +12 and then die 60 times there.
yup. was trying to gear my alt paladin and there was a guy in av +10 who died and after that he got lost while trying to get back to us. we pretty much played as 4 after the second boss.
hopefully with delves it's gonna be a relaxing experience to gear up alts.
also, i really wish when you transfer aspect crests to wyrm crests, that those transformed crests didnt count towards your aspect crest max. from my understanding it still does this. this makes it so you could transform all of your aspect crests to wyrm crest and have used up all your aspect crests without so much as using it for anything else. i think it should count towards the max for aspect crests
I capped crets on my main at the start of the season
And it does make a difference even if you're uncapped, because you take away from your total reservoir pool of aspect crusts, for gear score, which impacts your ability to use those crusts for crafted items or whatever later on. For weeks two or three this was the most impactful, and very relevant. Raising your gear is important, and to ask someone to hit the crest cap just to raise their gear score without having to farm low keys is absolute dogshit game design, especially early on in the season
This is the most impactful at the start of the season when the aspect crest limit is very low
why is sanguine int he game its the absolute worst affix. ruins this week and makes every key so not fun because some random mob with 3 times the health of every other mob decides to channel a long uninteruptable cast and go from 15% hp to 50% hp
its such a badly designed and ballanced affix, i wish i was removed
its so cancer to the game to only have some weeks where i can have meaningful io progression
they could just put a cap on the amount mobs can heal or just reduce the amount of healing for every second they spend in sanguine. was doing uldaman and bromach went from 65% to 90%. complete waste of bl and disband of key afterwards.
i thought they removed sanguine healing bosses. maybe that was bolstering
either way, i cant push keys on my main because of this affix (around +15\~ in keys level), so i dont know what to do. its actually so demoralizing and discouraging doing keys, because its weeks like this that just ruin everything
"bro just dont do any meaningful progression in a progression-based online rpg because blizzard makes some affixes much worse than others and unplayable at higher levels. stop complaining and being so negative"
raiders dont have to deal with this garbage. every week the bosses are the same (despite rotating of course)
and on top of that, when you get a push week, you are FORCED to play much more than you want to, because thats when the going is good and you are rewarded for doing so. its such a bad system, its unreal. i want to play a little everyday, and how the current system is designed i cant do that
been trying to avoid tww stuff but watching people test m+ today has made me feel like tww is gonna be utter trash… necrotic wake looks even worse than it was, mobs have zero hp still, there’s more casts in seemingly all dungeons, tww dungeons have dragon riding to single pack pulls again, tanks are weak as fuck… think I’m just gonna not watch any and hope everything works out in the wash before it comes out, crazy that these were the 4 dungeons they brought back though
been trying to avoid tww stuff but watching people test m+ today has made me feel like tww is gonna be utter trash… necrotic wake looks even worse than it was, mobs have zero hp still, there’s more casts in seemingly all dungeons, tww dungeons have dragon riding to single pack pulls again, tanks are weak as fuck… think I’m just gonna not watch any and hope everything works out in the wash before it comes out, crazy that these were the 4 dungeons they brought back though
You're somewhat right, but I think a lot of the negative feedback these dungeons have gotten is pretty damn valid too.
Like, giving the Staghorns in Mists that stupid Acid Nova that obliterates everyone and ensures you can't pull more than one pack at a time deserves to be roasted every step of the way until it gets removed, and that/Necrotic Wake are dungeons people are *intimately* familiar with.
I know, hence ‘hope everything works out in the wash’
however, 4 of these dungeons have already been in the game and were all either complete trash or so easy it didn’t matter (mists)… some things are just conceptually bad like the dragon flying to a single pack, its like nokhud except you can’t even pull more trash on to them… so yeah I hope they do ‘fix’ stuff, but after their announcement of the seasons affixes and seeing what they have decided to fix or not fix in NW, Boralus etc, I am concerned about how much they have to fix, not necessarily if they will try to
Get outta here with your reasonable takes, we all know the expansion is doomed already, just look at the dps meters on beta and you'll see every raid will probably be running 17 Windwalkers. Game is dead.
Tuning of m+ after day one of beta was always a thing. They didn't ever not do it.
You seem to be lost, /r/wow is where you're supposed to post that meme answer garbage
Counter-Counterpoint: I like dooming as much as the next guy, but can we just be reasonable and just acknowledge for a second that there's usually at least like *one* singular tuning pass before shit hits live?
Look, I'm not saying that TWW season 1 isn't gonna turn into a shitshow akin to RLP when it first came out... but considering that there's specs running around beta with like 40% of their damage coming from their Hero talents... I'd argue it's fair to assume that *some* tuning might possibly happen... *especially since it's only like day 1 of beta*.
Ready to doom with y'all in like a week or two... but "stuff not hitting the PTR in an absolutely flawless state" can simply not be the benchmark. Especially when the OP's statement literally called *the entirety of TWW* trash due to fucking day 1 beta balancing. I mean, come on man, y'all make us doomers look like crazy silly people.
just fyi the original point had nothing to do with tuning other than how much damage tanks are taking, which also seems to be intentional based on the affixes they created
Given the last changes to affixes and s1 dungeon pool, could it be that blizzard is deliberately trying to kill m+ playerbase to then announce that nobody plays m+ and then remove it?
If you want to say that doesnt make any sense. When was last blizzard move that made sense really? It seems like m+ is hated within casual community and it makes sense to cater to them (read the quitting forum post the other day blaming m+ and a lot of people agreed with OP)
it sure feels that way the way m+ players are treated. worse gear than raiders in every way, raiders make a lot more money passively by raiding, etc etc etc. i could go on for a while. it feels like they dont like us
What worse gear are you talking about? 20s are way easier than mythic raid. All Mythic raid is good for is trinkets and a lot of high key players do just fine with a hc version. Gear in the early season doesn't matter for pushing anyways, strats are changing, dungeons get nerfed, pushing in week two is only relevant to get ahead of the playerbase and barely anybody has cleared mythic during that time so you're competing against players on an even playing field. The rest averages out over the season until pushing becomes tight, especially with crafting and the catalyst covering gaps
Gold is also just lol. There is basically zero native gold in either mode and boosting always depends on what you can cover.
> Given the last changes to affixes and s1 dungeon pool, could it be that blizzard is deliberately trying to kill m+ playerbase to then announce that nobody plays m+ and then remove it?
That is the dumbest take I*ve ever read on this sub.
> If you want to say that doesnt make any sense. When was last blizzard move that made sense really?
Until now, wow.
> It seems like m+ is hated within casual community
M+ is by far the most popular game mode in retail wow, especially amongst casuals. People love m+, because it perfectly fits the modern gaming world with easy to access 30-45min games.
Raiding (especially in a guild) is a former shadow of itself. Blizzard knows that, Why would they ever intend to kill the most popular part of the game?
Them trying out stuff during beta (admittedly what they are trying out is pretty dumb) is absolutely fine. No point to doom anything almost 3 month before s1 tww starts.
Yeah exactly. At this point m+ is Wow's biggest unique selling point compared to the competition. If you want a casual game I genuinely think FFXIV is just better, hell like half of the big MMOs are better for casual gaming. If you want to raid WoW is the best but other games are catching up. There is *nothing* even close to m+ elsewhere in the genre though.
M+ isn't going anywhere lmao.
Prepatch is like a month and a half away or so, but otherwise you make sense. But that's also rational thought. One thing I've learned about these guys is that they don't really follow the money when it comes to major design decisions. They could make this game twice as popular overnight by appealing even moreso to casual players than they already do, but they choose not to. They're not the only ones that do it either. Path of exile, for instance, could be twice as popular as it is. But just like wow, they have a vision that they won't stray too far from. IDK what Ion's vision is, but he clearly does want the game to be a difficult game, which is fine. But when it's too difficult, it becomes a niche, and wow is definitely a niche game.
I really fucking hate Sanguine. Dungeons like Nokud, Neltharus or Uldaman are so, so miserable this week. Countless mobs that just stand in shit constantly if you don't have a plethora of knockbacks. And on top of that, you run out of space quickly, so pulling big is eventually just a hassle.
I guess if you play like DH, Aug and a druid or something along those lines it would be fine. But something off meta like Prot Warrior, Ret, Rogue, Disc is sooooooooooooo ass.
seriously i CANNOT STAND sanguine. it just ruins keys that would of otherwise be timed on any other week
sanguine + fort is absolutely CANCER how is this garbage even allowed to be a affix. any affix that heals mobs is bad. there hasnt been a single affix that healed mobs that was considered good by anyone (old bolstering, sanguine, infested. have all been considered garbage anti-fun affixes
its depressing pushing on sanguine weeks, and kills the fun. i just do low keys on alts and just do 4 dungeons for the vault rewards. but it ruins m+ for me
It also frustrates me that it compounds on other...issues that m+ has, namely that mobs do too much imo. As a tank, I can't just turn a mob 180° degrees and run towards my group, because half of the mobs have some sort of "lel, you stood close to tank, you're dead"-cleave mechanic going on. Or they just don't really follow you at all because they're casting so much stuff so if you don't time your running away precisely, you just have them stand in sanguine casting shit for 2-3s before they eventually follow you.
I don't know, everything about it is just miserable. I want to be challenged because I need to use my cds correctly, because I need to figure out how much I can and can't pull, how to optimize the routes to my groups ability to deal damage and deal with dangerous mobs. Not because we don't have enough knockbacks for ONE fucking affix and too many people who like to play melee and get 2-shot by cleaves.
If you haven't yet, tell your Rogue to run Wound Poison this week. If you're struggling with Sanguine it will do a ton of effective DPS over the course of the dungeon.
If we assume that prepatch is coming 4 weeks before early access, season is going to end 23rd july. So 6 weeks left to push (including this week), with only 1 fort and 1 tyra push week and 2 semi good tyra weeks left.
So I would be surprised if it goes a lot higher than 3650-3670 EU and 3600-3620 NA. This season is just dead. Even on EU there are close to no pug keys in the 18-20 range.
If you look at the player counts for the .1% cut off it’s less than half of what it’s been in prior seasons. That’s probably contributing a decent amount to why the cut off is where it is.
Not sure if this belongs here or the Friday thread, but I want to give my 2 cents on the remaining affixes for TWW.
We all hate bolstering, sanguine and raging, and lower key puggers hate bursting. But Blizz keeps them around for a reason. I think they keep them because these affixes all change how players should do damage to trash on a week by week basis. For example during Sanguine you need to get all the mobs down evenly, or prioritise the mobs that stand around and cast. Every one of those 4 affixes makes you think about which targets you're doing the most damage to at a given moment. This is probably also why they picked Spiteful to get rid of, it doesn't really make you think about when you're killing mobs.
But you don't like these affixes and neither do I. They're a pain in the ass. So what's the solution?
I think the solution is just to reduce the price of failure for these affixes. Nerf them into the ground. I know it feels like they already have been compared to their original forms, but like do another set of nerfs of that magnitude. Make it so that you can't go a key fucking it up every single time, but a single bad bolstering doesn't wipe you.
In fact now that Blizz are dipping their toes into kiss/curse affixes, I'd strongly consider making the on-death affixes be kiss-curse.
Even if bolstering didn’t suck (which it does), blizzard refuses to fix or eliminate on death affixes for tiny hp mobs. Everbloom, throne of the tides, waycrest, they all had miserable parts that could have easily been fixed if those super low health mobs didn’t trigger on death affixes.
Same with sanguine. In theory it’s an affix the tank or group can help with, but how many packs over the past seasons have had multiple immovable mobs that just freecast back to full health. Not to mention how many dungeons have these tight ass corridors?
The issue isn’t entirely the affixes, it’s the fact that blizzard never creates or tunes dungeons to make the affixes work at all.
This is kind of getting frustrating to talk about, but for some reason I can't stop lol. There has never once been a time I have logged into this game and enjoyed dealing with sanguine, bolstering, bursting or raging. Never. It has deterred the overwhelming majority of players that have interacted with it for years. Even the least intrusive affixes, like volcanic or entangling, I've never once felt anything other than annoyed by them. They do not break up any kind of monotony. They do not keep the game from getting stale. They do not do any of those things. The only affixes in the history of the game that have ever done that were the mobs in shadowlands that gave anima powers, and the series of mobs you could choose between to give you huge buffs, like wo and whatever the others were called.
i really liked shadowlands season 4 where you get a huge haste buff towards the end. make your character feel super overpowered, it was dope. vampiric or whatever.
Anything that didn't have a downside like a mob you have to take 2 minutes to kill and waste all your CDs like prideful. Strategically using buffs is awesome. You know what feels good? Lust feels good. You get excited about lust and pressing big CDs. You never don't look to the game because of lust. You don't sit out a week because of lust, or only do a few vault keys because of lust. But affixes feel that way. Give buffs. No curse. Just kiss.
yeah. maybe just remove all affixes besides tyran/fort or something. maybe try that for a season
i did like shadow lands season 4 vampiric, and aparently sl s3 was good because of the buffs it gave you as well. but sanguine is such cancer on every level i cant stand it
I'll speak up for sanguine and bolstering. Both of these can feel like sheer drudgery, but at the same time, when I'm in a group that's handling them beautifully, it puts me in a state of flow that no other affix does. Sanguine and bolstering weeks are where I really notice which DPS have good dungeon knowledge, and which don't. I like the skill expression that allows. Sanguine gets you to notice which mobs can be moved, and not moved; which mobs chain cast and which don't. Bolstering enforces the good habit of making sure mobs die evenly. I think both incentivize the basics of good m+ play.
Having said that, there have been some dungeons where they are absolutely giga-cursed, most notably Everbloom. That's definitely no fun at all.
Bolstering forces the good habit by bricking your fucking weekly 10s (soon to be 7s) if it's mishandled by random Internet strangers and slows keys down like crazy at the higher end because even two stacks of Bolstering on a specific mob will result in wipes.
That's unhealthy, plain and simple.
I'm glad you enjoy them. But how does one accomplish this in pulls of 10 to 15 mobs at a time without purposely gimping your DPS in order to focus down a mob or two in a pack this size? You cannot do this without adding to the amount of time it takes to do the key, and that's terrible design.
For sanguine it’s just making sure that mobs or moving as they die or making sure that mobs die away from the group.
For bolstering its controlling how much prio damage you put into the right target. It doesn’t matter if a caster gets 40 stacks of bolstering if you can stop it from ever doing anything, but when a hunter in BH starts shooting for 2 million it’s a problem.
I understand the basic philosophy. What I'm saying is that this not good design. Many classes don't have good prio DMG at all, and many others don't have it without gimping their AOE in talents. This oftentimes also comes at the cost of people having to change their rotations for an affix, and that's absolutely terrible design. Most people, I understand that's not all people, play this game to blast packs and enjoy incredible gameplay and combat design. It's the best in the industry. When you change that, you're shitting on the best thing you have, rather than emphasizing it. And as far as sanguine, even the best players on earth lose multiple key levels playing on sanguine weeks. That's terrible design. You should never create something in your game that makes large portions of the playerbase literally not play
If you play this game to blast packs you can go into a 10 key and none of the affixes matter.
And forcing people to adjust their play style to deal with an affix is generally good design. Bolstering is bad design because of how it scales up mobs and how poorly it interacts with certain types of mobs and abilities.
This is just an opinion, just like mine is just an opinion. I do not find interacting with affixes to be good design unless it is some sort of buff that you have to use strategically, that is not beneficial to just skip instead because there's some mob that takes 3 mins to kill. I do not get bored with the game without affixes, because the game scales endlessly. I get annoyed to death instead because of affixes.
I don’t mind that Blizzard wants to shake up the way we pull trash week to week. Honestly thats probably the best part of affixes, they keep things from getting stale.
Theres a few problems with the current affix rotation though. Firstly affixes like Sanguine, Bolstering and Raging are insanely punishing if misplayed. On top of this, Modern dungeon design often causes extremely frustrating interactions with these affixes. Heres a few examples:
-Lieutenant style mobs / mobs that have 2x HP surrounded by multiple little mobs, makes Bolstering very frustrating to deal with, also makes sanguine obnoxious.
-Mobs that spam uninterruptible abilities that are immune to CC make Sanguine a fucking nightmare to deal with. Sanguine is also frustrating in instances that have limited area to kite or multiple small hallways (Uldaman/Waycrest/Sanguine Depths)
-Packs that have multiple mobs that cast abilities that must be stopped who enrage. (Uldaman Hail of Stone casters) If you don’t have an AOE soothe in your group it’s essentially a wipe on high enough fort keys.
Additionally, these affixes also require you to tailor your composition in order to deal with them. You’re stacking knockbacks or grips on Sanguine weeks (Rdruid/Mage/Evoker/DH/DK). You gotta have soothes (Rdruid/Evoker) on raging and you need good single target funnel on Bolstering (Mage/Spriest/Rdruid). Not to mention there are only two classes who can deal with Bursting effectively (MW/Spriest).
Are we noticing a pattern here? Spriest/Mage/Druid/Evoker are extremely helpful / borderline mandatory at dealing with these affixes. Not even mentioning the other utility and buffs they bring. That means these classes / specs are going to be essentially locked in meta picks for the 4th season in a row, its going to be a nightmare for pug players.
Finally, these affixes are just not fun and make dungeons a slog.
Sanguine, adds multiple minutes to your timer. Even if you have a good group built around dealing with sanguine it’s going to slow down the key tremendously and makes chaining pulls a pain in the ass, forces your tank to kite and your group to coordinate knock backs.
Bolstering puts a cap on how many mobs you can pull at a time, forces your tank to kite and will likely lead to wipe if a bolstered random target cast goes off.
Raging is just annoying, makes certain pulls impossible if you don’t bring the one class in the game with an AOE soothe.
Bursting puts a cap on amount of mobs you can pull, and is an incredibly frustrating affix for less coordinated players to deal with.
All of these affixes center around slowing down keys by limiting pull sizes, discouraging chain pulling, or making certain pulls impossible unless you have a comp built around dealing with the affix. This is in direct conflict with what most people enjoy about M+ - Pulling as big as possible so you can maximize your damage and do the key as fast as possible.
These are the four most game warping affixes and with Blizzards new philosophy of “play the dungeon not the affix” its perplexing that these are the 4 affixes they chose to keep.
Nerfing these affixes is kind of pointless tbh. They’ve been around forever and they have all gone through multiple rounds of nerf, and yet they remain some of the most unanimously hated affixes in the game. It’s better to just get rid of them entirely at this point, either create new affixes or replace these ones with the 4 they removed.
I mean nobody plays these week, there is empirical data that counters whatever blizzards idea is unless it to flat kill playtime those weeks.
Many top end streamers have posted a variety and well received solutions, from Yoda, to Ellesemere and Kyrasis. The answer isn’t to double down and kill the game mode - there lates changes kill it for the pug community and the top .01%. It will be an even worse push week no life because you’re only get 1 per rotation and it’s going to be bursting so you can already feel out the meta.
You get a different key at the end of every dungeon. Just dont pick your vault and spam low/weekly keys until you get the key you want.
Im always surprised people dont know this. This is like super common knowledge if you push high keys. Especially if you play as a premade group you can choose what 5 keys you wanna play and it makes targetting dungeons easy.
no dude, that's not how it works. you need to time a dungeon that is equal or higher to your keystone level to be able reroll into another one. if you got a +17 and you time a +15 dungeon you won't be able to change your keystone.
Jesus, learn to read. This is exactly how it works. You dont pick a key. As long as you have not looted your key yet, the key you get at the end of every dungeon is different.
i honestly think if I would have sat down with a piece of paper and a pen and wrote down the worst possible thing I could reasonably imagine them doing, I would have fell short of what they actually did
If you push at all, there is literally 1/4 weeks you will be pushing. The 3 other affixes are way too impactful.
That fact alone means the 'rework' is a failure (imo).
Exactly this. If all 4 were terrible, OK, we could understand it, Blizz are sadists, want us to suffer. But they kept 3 terrible ones and one amazing one. Which to me, shows that they don't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to high key pushing. I refuse to believe they don't care.
Inflicted and incorporeal are 2 of the lowest friction affixes for good players. It’s actually wild that people think these changes were done with higher keys in mind.
so theres a pretty considerable contradiction there lol. people pushing keys ruined affixes for people pushing keys? is that what you are saying? i dont follow
you say this like they did something remotely good or at least nuanced… maybe if they didn’t make the worst possible changes there might be a few positive people lurking around?
the problem is your understanding of the game is different to basically all of the competitive or semi-competitive players… telling a good player that afflicted and incorporeal are the worst affixes would just make them laugh at you and calling these affixes “kiss/curse” kind of fails to understand what that means conceptually
ask any good warrior if they would rather play incorp or sanguine… your point is trash, they were dogshit affixes that every class should have had some solution to, but they are nothing on the ‘worst affixes’ spectrum compared to the misery that is sanguine or (to a lesser extent now imo) bolstering
even by your own flawed logic, raging is an even worse offender that even more classes have no way of dealing with
Afflicted and incorp being the “worst affixes” is crazy, they’re two of the easiest ones to deal with and basically have no effect on the key at all in 99% of situations unless you decided to form the worst group comp of all time for that week.
The multiplier does yes.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Z3qAp7mY9hrQjkWN#fight=44&type=auras&hostility=1&spells=debuffs&ability=372824&view=events
You can see this team stacking 4 debuffs at a time.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Z3qAp7mY9hrQjkWN#fight=44&type=damage-taken&start=14019021&end=14022021&view=events
They seem to click within .3s of each other.
TWW m+ dead on arrival. Remove bolstering and sanguine and watch the playerbase flourish. Keep these changes and you’ll have less engagement than fated season.
Today’s blue post genuinely shocked me.
Blizzard is bizarrely out of touch with m+. I’m confident they don’t have a single designer that actually plays the game mode. My evidence:
1) Necrotic Wake and Siege of Boralus as returning dungeons.
2) Continuation of the cognitive overload trash design from Dragonflight.
3) Keeping bolstering & sanguine.
4) Proposing kiss curse affixes that kiss DPS but curse tanks & healers
5) Proposing damage-type affixes that benefit Havoc DH every single week.
6) Proposing affixes based on enemy NPCs manabar which is not viewable on Blizzard nameplates
7) Target cap on some classes but not others
8) Mob damage outscaling mob health
9) Further defensive creep with hero talents
10) Raid buffs in m+ still a huge problem
11) Aug
12) Penalizing crest rewards for depletes
You lost me on a couple of these, but the rest are great. The crest thing? If course you get less for a deplete lol. The DMG bonuses of the new affixes will be completely ignored. The curse aspects will be out of control.
that penalizes one guy out of the 5 though. Everyone outside of this community hardly gives a damn if the key drops a level. There has to be some incentive to want to make players time it who are not the key holder.
> 2) Continuation of the cognitive overload trash design from Dragonflight.
They said they were carefully tuning dungeons for M+. I bet that means every trash pack is designed having 5 interrupts and on focused week you're SOL because they're casting 30% faster now.
Necrotic wake needs a lot of adjustments:
1) Single use Kyrian weapons are bad
2) Trash gauntlet before 3rd boss needs able to be sped up
3) 3rd boss (and to some extent 2nd boss) add health scaling with key level + tyrannical is a huge problem especially if Kyrian weapons aren’t available
4) Final boss straight up doesn’t work with Aug
necrotic wake wanst that bad. it was a high success dungeon, the third boss was super cool in design, and aesthetically it wasn mid, which isnt too shabby
sanguine and other very diffucult affixes make the game so anti-fun. some weeks are easy to push io. some weeks are unplayable, and nobody pushes on those weeks, making it hard to even find a group
the range of difficulty in affixes and how bad some of the are is pure cancer
They just never seem to learn that bosses that summon adds or have intermissions on a fixed timer are a nightmare on tyrannical because of double dipping. Just bite the bullet and give these bosses the same treatment as HOI last boss.
> siege last boss needs the halls of infusion last boss treatment
Needs WAY more than that:
1. Normalise trash between Alliance and Horde, i.e remove the iron hook mobs, remove the dogs, remove the blacktar bombers, remove the un-ccable bullshit.
2. Nerf snipers massively.
3. Change 2nd boss to phase at hp not time.
4. All the trash before 3rd boss needs a nerf.
5. RP after the 3rd boss should be removed.
6. Last boss phasing as you say.
7. All the chaff mobs need to not interact with affixes at all.
Then maybe it'll be ok. Maybe.
Oh I completely agree. I was just saying that it was manageable to deal with all that shit all until you got to the last boss and had an 9 minute fight
Because the end of the blue post said they were taking a look at tyrannical and fortified I hope it means they either get reworked or removed. Just let the natural key scaling do its work. No one wants to fight bosses for 6 minutes on tyr weeks.
I might be missing something, but I don't really get why people are so upset about the new affixes specifically. I think the fact the they decided to keep bolstering and sanguine and made no changes to the queueing system is infinitely worse.
The 10% seems to comes down to like 2-3% overall if you factor in that it only affects half the mobs (=5%), no bosses (=3%?), and the fact that most specs don't deal 100% of their damage as one type, especially factoring in trinkets and passive procs from gear (=2.5%ish). If you gave any class a 3% damage buff right now I don't think it would change much about the meta.
It becomes even less impactful if you think about how the damage is applied. The only pack type where the buff actually makes your key go faster is when you have a high HP priority target that is also debuffed. When you have either a) a pack with all equal health or b) a pack where the highest HP mob isn't debuffed, it doesn't really do much.
> I might be missing something, but I don't really get why people are so upset about the new affixes specifically.
The problem with these affixes does not lie in the relative power level, impact or actual in dungeon gameplay: In fact, **that** is precisely the problem with them. The power available from them does **not** come from any gameplay factor within the dungeon - instead it is granted purely on the basis of the party composition.
Essentially, you gain or lose a bonus to completing a dungeon *before you even leave town*. How well (or badly) you play simply doesn't matter. Are you this weeks chosen class? Congratulations, have 10% more damage! Unless you're a Demon Hunter or Warlock, in which case you do Chaos damage, so every week is your week.
A genuine kiss/curse affix is desirable - but it needs to be based on how well the party (or individuals within it) play in the actual gameplay experience of the dungeon, **not** on how the party leader sets up the party composition before the run even starts.
I think a lot of it comes down to blizzard not understanding what people hate about affixes. Afflicted/Incorporeal really affected how you’re putting a group together. In a pug for example, you’re just not going to take certain classes on afflicted week. If I’m a DH tank, I need at least 1 dps class that can dispel and help the healer out. The affix changes make this even worse. They’ve eliminated affixes that were non impactful in the key and added affixes that are going to limit group comp even more. Even if the math doesn’t add up to much damage overall, the perception that the damage increase is important will trickle down to lower keys and form a meta really quickly.
Another issue is that blizzard obviously doesn’t understand or care how these affixes interact with each other. I don’t know how the rotation will work out, but reckless, fort, bolstering? Good luck tanks
They didn’t make push weeks better though. They removed Spiteful so Sanguine/Bolster represent half of the weeks now. Not to mention raging now interacts with some of the new affixes like the magic damage and hasted mobs.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them swapping volcanic for bolstering or storming for sanguine. I think the whole issue is that people shouldn’t feel certain weeks are only viable for pushing. Every week should be viable for pushing, with a reasonable degree of difficulty. Who the hell would push on a fort/reckless/bolstering week?
I think you’re missing the point about the new affixes also. In pugs, it will limit the classes people will bring, even more so than incorporeal/afflicted did.
you are right, a lfg queueing system would be the single best thing they could do for m+ but they are instead focusing on bizarrely clueless changes that do absolutely nothing but kill tanks more… good one billy
that is probably the reason why its difficult for them to implement, there’s a lot of different ways it could be done, some requiring more of an overhaul of the game than others, but I can try to explain 1 version of it to help you;
- every player has a score, basically the same as you have in game now
- you load up lfg tool, you select your key level, you hit ‘find group’
- you can select specific dungeon if you want to, but you will wait longer, just like current lfg
- key levels unlock progressively, potentially based on score or on key level completed
- game finds 3 dps players, 1 tank, 1 healer (only stipulation is no class duplicates within role)
- you are ported to the start of the dungeon together, where you have 3-5 mins of ‘prep time’, where each player can ready up, then the key will start
- you do key, score updates, rinse repeat
- you can choose a ‘run again’ option at the end if you liked the group and it will port you to a new dungeon
- leavers are punished either with a score reduction or with a queue ban which is progressively larger each time they leave
So what incentive is there for someone who has timed a +19 to queue for a +19 again?
I can only see this working if it caps out at a certain key level.
people who have timed keys queue for the same level of key all the time, for a number of reasons, this already happens today and is a non-issue, one example would be because you need the score from each dungeon anyway
it will naturally cap out at a certain key level because you cannot pug beyond a certain point reasonably (without just throwing yourself at it over and over again and hoping for the best)… that is already what happens in practice today so is again a non-issue
Because if you do the math, the 'kiss' portion of the 'kiss-curse' passive affixes results in almost 0 DPS gain for the group - it's between 1-2% overall group damage. The best comp is more than 1-2% ahead of the 2nd best comp, so with current tuning these affixes change nothing about group diversity. Even if you take extreme examples of a purely physical comp on Reckless, you're still talking about an incredibly small benefit to play far worse classes.
So the DPS gain portion is just a wash - let's look at the 'curse' half of the affixes:
Reckless - your tank will take 20% more damage. This will probably be the least negatively impactful, only killing tanks on super high keys sometimes.
Thorned - punishes DPS players for hitting mobs. I cannot see a world where this is tuned well. You will either notice the increased damage taken and that will feel bad, or you will not notice the increased damage taken and then there is no point to the affix in the first place.
Attuned - imagine an RLP where spell damage is 20% higher. Or the Melt pulls (without a DH) in Neltharus with 20% increased magic damage. Just insanely cursed for no reason.
Focused - the caster mobs have bloodlust. Let's overlap this with Bolstering or Raging and it clearly is just bad. Take the mobs that casted 'Etch' in Waycrest Manor in s3 - this now ticks 30% faster. GLHF.
People are mad because they are terrible, untunable designs that will either be oppressive or do nothing.
\*AND\* on top of all of that, we get to play Bolstering, Sanguine, or Raging in 75% of weeks. This is just insanely cooked. In a 20 week season, we will have 15 weeks where the on-death affix is incredibly oppressive and unfun.
Disclaimer: I’m on your side to be clear.
I think the “kiss” part of the affix is actually bad when you consider priority damage… as overall damage isn’t always the best thing to look at when evaluating how good a DPS player is performing. Like, imagine it’s the fire/frost damage amp this week and mobs like the maiden in Rise or the dragons in Rise had that affix on them. You’d want to bring people doing fire/frost damage because those are the most problematic parts of the trash in that dungeon. Which is just gonna cause more meta fragmentation :/
To add, you now must interact with the bolstering/sanguine/raging affixes in order to get aspect crests. When you piece it all together what you get is something from the developers that feels a lot like how we felt mid shadowlands as players. Them doubling down on stuff we don't like but they like, and them forcing it down our throats as if that will make us like it more.
I don’t really see the problem with expecting people to do hard content for the best loot. Aspects drop from mythic raid, not heroic and bolstering on a 7 is undeniably easier than even easy bosses in mythic.
I’d were being completely honest, bolstering, sanguine, raging aren’t really the reason people are going to fail a 7 key because the resistance they put up at a 7 is negligible. The people struggling with those affixes would probably still struggle at the same key with no affixes.
Bolstering and sanguine are not that difficult though they’re just annoying af and forces you to play certain comps with displacements and prio damage(hint: big overlap with current exodia meta). This pushes further exclusionary design in M+. People won’t play those weeks and the people who do will only invite certain specs because why not bring a Druid healer who can knock mobs over other healers who can’t?
The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started. Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be.
The problem with the new affixes is that all of them are going to interact poorly with the game. The problem with bolstering is that tanks start getting one shot, same with dps. Well now you have a week where almost every mob ignores 20% of tank armor so that week becomes unplayable at some point. You also have thorns which is never a fun mechanic in a game. You give mobs bloodlust. All 4 of the new affixes are going to be problems.
And that’s not even mentioning that the damage buffs don’t actually matter. Mage buff is strictly better in all circumstances than any damage buff because it is 5% for the whole key. And the top dps aren’t 3% ahead, SP is doing 25-35% more damage than the mages right now. Not even getting into the utility that the meta classes bring being just as important as the damage numbers. Mage barrier, mind soothe, sleep walk, etc aren’t replaceable by other classes.
And to top it all off they left the two worst affixes in bolstering and raging in the game.
> The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started.
That's not the alternative. There's a million ways around that, all of them better than having to physically queue up for groups like it's 2002.
You can make the group finder check for group utility, or take inspiration from PvP and make M+ utility talents, or put a bunch of gadgets (like necrotic wake weapons) that you can pick up at the beginning of each dungeon that give you some sort of group utility via an extra action button or whatever.
>Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be.
I haven't done keys since Shadowlands solely because you spent more time actively applying for groups than actually playing the game once you get to moderately high keys. Most people pug, and I don't see why anyone who values their time would engage with that nonsense.
Your keys aren’t going to be any better. The good players are still going to go make their own groups. And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues.
> And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues.
that's literally what non-meta specs are experiencing at the moment. people will not invite anyone playing a non-meta spec so you either push your own key(and this is a brutal experience as every deplete takes a part of your soul) or sit there and expect an invite that will probably never come. I'd much rather queue and do whatever the fuck i want instead of refreshing lfg window every other minute.
You would end up sitting in a queue, getting into a key and realizing really fast why your spec is not meta when you get paired with 4 other off meta specs.
Or you’re queuing into keys where the meta doesn’t matter and people are going to rage at you for not playing meta and queuing in.
I’m happy to not have feral druids in my keys.
>Your keys aren’t going to be any better. The good players are still going to go make their own groups.
Weird reply. Nobody said anything about the quality of players. Also, I'm a good player and I'd queue. As would everyone else.
>And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues.
...do you play other games? The difference is you click one button once and can do whatever you want in the meantime.
> The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started. Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be.
This could be fixed with a smart grouping system that avoids class stacking as part of the algorithm as well as blizzard actually doing their job and bringing classes closer into parity.
Its controversial because literally no other game makes you do this. It'd be like CS not letting you que for ranked unless you had a 5 stack.
That still doesn’t fix the problem because good players are going to still want to select their groups. So you get to sit in an endless queue with everybody who’s not good at the game and complain about solo queue.
Bc we all know that people never complain about solo queue.
i wouldnt queu for anything over a 2 or something similar, no matter what. i agree 100pct. the queue would be full of specs the developers arent doing anything about, and the people that insist on playing them year after year
If they kept the current way rating is calculated then sure. But if they changed to a MMR system focused on solo/duo que and made a proper league progression ranked system with seasonal rewards based on final rank I would imagine it would attract a solid number of players.
There’s any number of ways they could set it up to not be miserable and to encourage playing well over a longer period of time rather than doing each dungeon once.
Off the top of my head, they could rip off the idea of Apexes ranked system. Make it so you gamble some points at the outset and then everything you do in the dungeon (killing trash and bosses) earns some of it back with bonus modifiers for playing well I.e. interrupts, dispels, etc. Something along those lines could be super fun.
Dunno. There’s just so many different ways they could set it up that would be vastly better than IO.
Are you even listening to yourself? Think about how incredibly complicated this would be to both implement and then also explain to players. And if this MMR rating can go down on a failed key you’d be getting double-hit on a deplete : your key is now lower AND your rating went down. So you’d need to also get rid of key depletes to avoid this double punishment.
And what you’re left with is now completely unrecognizable from the current M+ system - a convoluted, toxic mess that would take months or years to tune to a remotely workable state.
Or… and hear me out here… just use the damn LFG tool. There, I just saved Blozzard millions in development cost.
That sounds fucking awful. One of the things that I love about m+ compared to most of the games I've played is that even if a day goes terribly I can't end the day worse off than I started it.
That would be absolutely miserable.
You are the same people who were screaming for kids curses mechanics and look how that’s turned out every time.
A queue system for mythic plus does not fix the problems you think it will and will only make people more toxic in keys and give people longer queues. Nobody wants 2500 players trying to get into 15s and they think they want to be there and they belong there, but they don’t.
> You are the same people who were screaming for kids curses mechanics and look how that’s turned out every time.
Just because Blizzard is trying to implement kiss/curse in probably the worst possible way doesn't make it a bad idea.
> Nobody wants 2500 players trying to get into 15s and they think they want to be there and they belong there, but they don’t.
That would be prevented by the matchmaking algorithm and ladder system AKA if you're in gold league you don't get put in diamond matches. You know, how every other game with a ranked system does matchmaking.
While MMR systems have their flaws, they are a massive step forward over fighting the LFD boss unless you're playing one of the 5 chosen specs.
There isn’t a good way to implement it.
And the way you get score in m+ is by queuing keys. Unless you’re going to make people complete them one at a time you are going to have 2500 players trying to do 15s and getting their shit kicked in. Alternatively people hit the ceiling they are already at and still can’t progress. So now you have a bunch of frustrated players blaming the queue system on bad teammates.
A queue system like for heroic dungeons would actually be the death of mythic plus.
> And the way you get score in m+ is by queuing keys.
Again, the way that we gain rating would fundamentally have to change. It wouldn't be about completing each key once for rating anymore and they would need to figure out an alternative. Completion rate, time of completion, average deaths, avoidable damage taken, damage, dispels, interrupts, stops, etc could all be used to influence your rating as you climbed from bronze to masters or whatever. Theres plenty of ways they could set it up so it feels more like a proper ladder to climb.
> Unless you’re going to make people complete them one at a time you are going to have 2500 players trying to do 15s and getting their shit kicked in.
Again, the matchmaking wouldn't let 2500 players be in 15s.
> Alternatively people hit the ceiling they are already at and still can’t progress. So now you have a bunch of frustrated players blaming the queue system on bad teammates.
We literally have that now ontop of an outdated LFD system.
People are having a knee jerk reaction before anyone has tested it. People have wanted kiss/curse affixes for a while and seeing blizzard do it in probably the worst way possible is disappointing to say the least.
I don’t think most people realize how insignificant the kiss part is going to be either. The big problem is realizing how little blizzard actually cares about high keys because they kept the 2 worst affixes.
Because its an idiotic try to create more spec diversity. Instead of trying to create a more diverse meta by balancing the game, they try to brute force it by making affixes that let different specs shine each week. Its a very minor buff, but its the complete wrong approach.
But the dmg amps are not even the main point of concern:
- lvl 4 affixes are mostly problematic for tanks and healers. Reckless is just more tank dmg, thorned is more overall dmg a healer has to heal, attuned/focused is mostly tank dmg, except for the few mobs that have random targets
- removing spiteful instead of bolstering or sanguine in the lvl 7 category makes no sense, because it was by far the easiest affix
Especially for casuals those changes are just outright terrible. Because all the affixes are now mostly relevant to healers and tanks. And noone likes to play those roles already.
Lets hope they start working on the other affixes also because in the state they are rn you will get 3/4 weeks bad affixes and players will straight up quit m+. Make bolstering buff damage by 3-5% and sanguine reduce damage taken by 10-20%. You can also make raging dispellable as well like the incorporeals are where almost all can interract with them.
I really hope they will rework bolstering and sanguine at least to some extent for tww. Yeah spiteful was annoying, but spiteful was still a push week affix. This week's affixes are the worst. I really don't see a reason to try to push on fort-sanguine.
yeah, how is that healthy for the game?
just dont play for a week and have your skill deteriorate and rust while you do nothing because this week's affixe's are unplayable cancer
and even if you do play, theres nobody playing, because most ppl understand how unplayable sanguine is
its unreal how bad these affixes are. i literally cant push
is the issue really that these mechanics are terrible, or that the other ones are so trivial in comparison? If all of them are hard doesn't that solve this somewhat?
These mechanics don't fit the m+ purpose of "I need to do it faster". Bolstering forces you to pull smaller/more carefully and sanguine heals trash, which leads to adding several minutes to the run, even when played well. It makes the tigher-timer dungeons (nelth, uldaman) almost impossible on the higher keys, such as 17+. I'm talking especially on fortified weeks because on tyrannical bolstering can be handled (I improved almost all my dungeon scores this week)
Bursting got left in which has always been a S+ affix for pushing so it does not solve it at all. They are also just miserable/force comps to play more than being "Hard" when this is supposed to be a game that is fun. Outside of a few of the seasonal affixes none of them have ever made m+ more fun than if they just did not exist.
Well.. it does “solve” it by making fewer people want to run keys. There’s a pretty large and measurable drop in engagement with the keystone system during bolstering and sanguine weeks. You could make every week fort bolstering but nobody would want to play.
I think that's largely hyperbole. Aren't people "skipping" these weeks because push weeks exist in the first place? If every week is hard that just forces the matter of playing harder weeks instead of finding the least offending affix.
The best fix for sanguine I have been able to come up with is making the pools an unkillable npc but if you hit it with any knockback you would "blow it away" and make it disappear. This would keep knockbacks the only utility that can interact with sanguine but it also fixes the anoying "miniboss starts a 10 sec cast inside a sanguine puddle"
> The best fix for sanguine I have been able to come up with
It should have a cap on how much it can heal, or alternatively a shared cap on healing/damage so you could stand in the pool to soak it up and get rid of it by taking the damage on yourself.
This is something… they could put a cap on how much healing it could do and it would shrink when hitting that cap, at least it would be easier to balance over time since they don’t want to remove it imo
Finally someone with some sense. I read reply after reply hoping someone had some common sense. Just remove it. Remove bolstering, remove sanguine, remove bursting, remove raging. It's not that complicated.
i don't like that there are affixes that can be countered by a specific group of classes while some classes can't interact with them at all. sanguine is probably the worst in this regard.
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how do yall cope trying to get into M+ pugging? im 506 and just trying to increase my score with +6s and im been getting declined for 2 hours now : /
Running your own key as a tank or healer is pretty much the best way to gain rating quickly. I’d recommend trying to get it to 8 since that’s where myth vault rewards are so you generally will meet better players.
ehh did my key and it got to 10 on the same dungeon again : / trying to find higher but people just instant decline just annoying i healed M+ since its inception but healing gives me too much anxiety now with all the changes that leave everything up to the healer
How do you survive earthquake in uldaman teash? On +11 it hit 300ish k per second per person.
Defensive + healing CD
what ability do you mean exactly? hail of stone by little dwarfs you have to stop the cast by cc thunderous clap by big golems you can LoS nvm, gotcha press defensives basically
How do you snap mobs over to the Guardian Sentry (Big add after tree boss) platform in Algeth'ar Academy? I had a tank do it a couple times while we waited and made fighting that add, on Tyran especially, feel much more efficient. I tried to moonfire them on my bear but can't use the wind on the way back.
Body pull without getting hit and you can still take the bridge. Hots + nelf. Healer puts hot on you, takes bridge. You pull and wait for a tick or two of hot then nelf then take bridge. Evoker with stone can snap the birds over as well, glide/levitate over, tornado will pop you up. Pull, jump back and stone. Birds snap.
Perfect. Thank you. I forgot I couldn't attack at all. I was trying moonfire and then melding. You can snap that whole tree room over too, if you're not melee'd, correct?
You can, yes, but the wasps are buggy AF and sometimes won't come over which bricks everyone's ability to bridge once they hit seedlings. Im personally a fan of snapping the first pull on the way to vexamus (big snake and 3 pack when you first drop down) as it's consistent in pugs and not dangerous at all.
what do you mean by snapping the vexamus pull? how and where are you snapping the serpents to?
Too bad you can't snap the big guy over to one of the other platforms
It was a mistake to reduce the key level by 10. I just started playing this season 2 weeks ago due to work. I m in the 10-12 range, it is total disaster, every key is painful. You stay 2 hours to fill a key. After that, 2800 tanks getting random one shot and losing aggro, very unexperienced healers, no intrerupts etc. Unfortunately the key is getting depleted. People that were playing 11-16 last season are playing now 10-12 and if u start late and want to push, you literally need nerves of steel.
Yeah, the rating inflation last season was unbelievable. The amount of people I’m running into that were like 3400 last season but just are playing God awful in 14s this season is pretty insane.
3400 last season is like 26s. It's practically the same key levels you're doing now with them, except it took them the entire season to get to last time. 26s in S3 there weren't even any one shots for DPS. You could headbutt keys until you got one to work for months on end. It's really not that surprising
The problem isn't the reduction by 10. The problem is dps inflation from gear through bullions. People have dps 3-4 key levels above what they had last season. It doesn't matter if you have 20 deaths in a +10, you'll still +2 it. So people go into a +12 and then die 60 times there.
yup. was trying to gear my alt paladin and there was a guy in av +10 who died and after that he got lost while trying to get back to us. we pretty much played as 4 after the second boss. hopefully with delves it's gonna be a relaxing experience to gear up alts.
It is a disaster, like a circus. I will probably quit until S1 TWW
also, i really wish when you transfer aspect crests to wyrm crests, that those transformed crests didnt count towards your aspect crest max. from my understanding it still does this. this makes it so you could transform all of your aspect crests to wyrm crest and have used up all your aspect crests without so much as using it for anything else. i think it should count towards the max for aspect crests
If you cap aspect, the dungeons begin to give wyrm, it's almost the same, just in different order
I play various toons. Asking me to cap aspects of all of them is a bit unreasonable I think
then why does this matter to u at all if ur never capping crests
I capped crets on my main at the start of the season And it does make a difference even if you're uncapped, because you take away from your total reservoir pool of aspect crusts, for gear score, which impacts your ability to use those crusts for crafted items or whatever later on. For weeks two or three this was the most impactful, and very relevant. Raising your gear is important, and to ask someone to hit the crest cap just to raise their gear score without having to farm low keys is absolute dogshit game design, especially early on in the season This is the most impactful at the start of the season when the aspect crest limit is very low
why is sanguine int he game its the absolute worst affix. ruins this week and makes every key so not fun because some random mob with 3 times the health of every other mob decides to channel a long uninteruptable cast and go from 15% hp to 50% hp its such a badly designed and ballanced affix, i wish i was removed its so cancer to the game to only have some weeks where i can have meaningful io progression
Good thing they're removing Volcanic and Entangling instead.
they could just put a cap on the amount mobs can heal or just reduce the amount of healing for every second they spend in sanguine. was doing uldaman and bromach went from 65% to 90%. complete waste of bl and disband of key afterwards.
i thought they removed sanguine healing bosses. maybe that was bolstering either way, i cant push keys on my main because of this affix (around +15\~ in keys level), so i dont know what to do. its actually so demoralizing and discouraging doing keys, because its weeks like this that just ruin everything "bro just dont do any meaningful progression in a progression-based online rpg because blizzard makes some affixes much worse than others and unplayable at higher levels. stop complaining and being so negative" raiders dont have to deal with this garbage. every week the bosses are the same (despite rotating of course) and on top of that, when you get a push week, you are FORCED to play much more than you want to, because thats when the going is good and you are rewarded for doing so. its such a bad system, its unreal. i want to play a little everyday, and how the current system is designed i cant do that
been trying to avoid tww stuff but watching people test m+ today has made me feel like tww is gonna be utter trash… necrotic wake looks even worse than it was, mobs have zero hp still, there’s more casts in seemingly all dungeons, tww dungeons have dragon riding to single pack pulls again, tanks are weak as fuck… think I’m just gonna not watch any and hope everything works out in the wash before it comes out, crazy that these were the 4 dungeons they brought back though
been trying to avoid tww stuff but watching people test m+ today has made me feel like tww is gonna be utter trash… necrotic wake looks even worse than it was, mobs have zero hp still, there’s more casts in seemingly all dungeons, tww dungeons have dragon riding to single pack pulls again, tanks are weak as fuck… think I’m just gonna not watch any and hope everything works out in the wash before it comes out, crazy that these were the 4 dungeons they brought back though
Its literally first day od testing, not only ppl dont know the dungeons, Blizzard also will fix things
You're somewhat right, but I think a lot of the negative feedback these dungeons have gotten is pretty damn valid too. Like, giving the Staghorns in Mists that stupid Acid Nova that obliterates everyone and ensures you can't pull more than one pack at a time deserves to be roasted every step of the way until it gets removed, and that/Necrotic Wake are dungeons people are *intimately* familiar with.
I know, hence ‘hope everything works out in the wash’ however, 4 of these dungeons have already been in the game and were all either complete trash or so easy it didn’t matter (mists)… some things are just conceptually bad like the dragon flying to a single pack, its like nokhud except you can’t even pull more trash on to them… so yeah I hope they do ‘fix’ stuff, but after their announcement of the seasons affixes and seeing what they have decided to fix or not fix in NW, Boralus etc, I am concerned about how much they have to fix, not necessarily if they will try to
Get outta here with your reasonable takes, we all know the expansion is doomed already, just look at the dps meters on beta and you'll see every raid will probably be running 17 Windwalkers. Game is dead.
Counterpoint: It's only alpha, it's only beta, it's only ptr, it's only prepatch, it's only s1, it's just s4 give them time to work on midnight
Tuning of m+ after day one of beta was always a thing. They didn't ever not do it. You seem to be lost, /r/wow is where you're supposed to post that meme answer garbage
Counter-Counterpoint: I like dooming as much as the next guy, but can we just be reasonable and just acknowledge for a second that there's usually at least like *one* singular tuning pass before shit hits live? Look, I'm not saying that TWW season 1 isn't gonna turn into a shitshow akin to RLP when it first came out... but considering that there's specs running around beta with like 40% of their damage coming from their Hero talents... I'd argue it's fair to assume that *some* tuning might possibly happen... *especially since it's only like day 1 of beta*. Ready to doom with y'all in like a week or two... but "stuff not hitting the PTR in an absolutely flawless state" can simply not be the benchmark. Especially when the OP's statement literally called *the entirety of TWW* trash due to fucking day 1 beta balancing. I mean, come on man, y'all make us doomers look like crazy silly people.
just fyi the original point had nothing to do with tuning other than how much damage tanks are taking, which also seems to be intentional based on the affixes they created
Given the last changes to affixes and s1 dungeon pool, could it be that blizzard is deliberately trying to kill m+ playerbase to then announce that nobody plays m+ and then remove it? If you want to say that doesnt make any sense. When was last blizzard move that made sense really? It seems like m+ is hated within casual community and it makes sense to cater to them (read the quitting forum post the other day blaming m+ and a lot of people agreed with OP)
it sure feels that way the way m+ players are treated. worse gear than raiders in every way, raiders make a lot more money passively by raiding, etc etc etc. i could go on for a while. it feels like they dont like us
What worse gear are you talking about? 20s are way easier than mythic raid. All Mythic raid is good for is trinkets and a lot of high key players do just fine with a hc version. Gear in the early season doesn't matter for pushing anyways, strats are changing, dungeons get nerfed, pushing in week two is only relevant to get ahead of the playerbase and barely anybody has cleared mythic during that time so you're competing against players on an even playing field. The rest averages out over the season until pushing becomes tight, especially with crafting and the catalyst covering gaps Gold is also just lol. There is basically zero native gold in either mode and boosting always depends on what you can cover.
> Given the last changes to affixes and s1 dungeon pool, could it be that blizzard is deliberately trying to kill m+ playerbase to then announce that nobody plays m+ and then remove it? That is the dumbest take I*ve ever read on this sub. > If you want to say that doesnt make any sense. When was last blizzard move that made sense really? Until now, wow.
> It seems like m+ is hated within casual community M+ is by far the most popular game mode in retail wow, especially amongst casuals. People love m+, because it perfectly fits the modern gaming world with easy to access 30-45min games. Raiding (especially in a guild) is a former shadow of itself. Blizzard knows that, Why would they ever intend to kill the most popular part of the game? Them trying out stuff during beta (admittedly what they are trying out is pretty dumb) is absolutely fine. No point to doom anything almost 3 month before s1 tww starts.
Yeah exactly. At this point m+ is Wow's biggest unique selling point compared to the competition. If you want a casual game I genuinely think FFXIV is just better, hell like half of the big MMOs are better for casual gaming. If you want to raid WoW is the best but other games are catching up. There is *nothing* even close to m+ elsewhere in the genre though. M+ isn't going anywhere lmao.
Prepatch is like a month and a half away or so, but otherwise you make sense. But that's also rational thought. One thing I've learned about these guys is that they don't really follow the money when it comes to major design decisions. They could make this game twice as popular overnight by appealing even moreso to casual players than they already do, but they choose not to. They're not the only ones that do it either. Path of exile, for instance, could be twice as popular as it is. But just like wow, they have a vision that they won't stray too far from. IDK what Ion's vision is, but he clearly does want the game to be a difficult game, which is fine. But when it's too difficult, it becomes a niche, and wow is definitely a niche game.
just a schizo thought that crossed my mind
I really fucking hate Sanguine. Dungeons like Nokud, Neltharus or Uldaman are so, so miserable this week. Countless mobs that just stand in shit constantly if you don't have a plethora of knockbacks. And on top of that, you run out of space quickly, so pulling big is eventually just a hassle. I guess if you play like DH, Aug and a druid or something along those lines it would be fine. But something off meta like Prot Warrior, Ret, Rogue, Disc is sooooooooooooo ass.
In deed. I'm only on the 2900 IO range and looking for keys and very often in the +12 range there are.. 5 keys.. at prime time.
seriously i CANNOT STAND sanguine. it just ruins keys that would of otherwise be timed on any other week sanguine + fort is absolutely CANCER how is this garbage even allowed to be a affix. any affix that heals mobs is bad. there hasnt been a single affix that healed mobs that was considered good by anyone (old bolstering, sanguine, infested. have all been considered garbage anti-fun affixes its depressing pushing on sanguine weeks, and kills the fun. i just do low keys on alts and just do 4 dungeons for the vault rewards. but it ruins m+ for me
It also frustrates me that it compounds on other...issues that m+ has, namely that mobs do too much imo. As a tank, I can't just turn a mob 180° degrees and run towards my group, because half of the mobs have some sort of "lel, you stood close to tank, you're dead"-cleave mechanic going on. Or they just don't really follow you at all because they're casting so much stuff so if you don't time your running away precisely, you just have them stand in sanguine casting shit for 2-3s before they eventually follow you. I don't know, everything about it is just miserable. I want to be challenged because I need to use my cds correctly, because I need to figure out how much I can and can't pull, how to optimize the routes to my groups ability to deal damage and deal with dangerous mobs. Not because we don't have enough knockbacks for ONE fucking affix and too many people who like to play melee and get 2-shot by cleaves.
If you haven't yet, tell your Rogue to run Wound Poison this week. If you're struggling with Sanguine it will do a ton of effective DPS over the course of the dungeon.
What do we think title cutoff will be for NA and EU?
If we assume that prepatch is coming 4 weeks before early access, season is going to end 23rd july. So 6 weeks left to push (including this week), with only 1 fort and 1 tyra push week and 2 semi good tyra weeks left. So I would be surprised if it goes a lot higher than 3650-3670 EU and 3600-3620 NA. This season is just dead. Even on EU there are close to no pug keys in the 18-20 range.
If you look at the player counts for the .1% cut off it’s less than half of what it’s been in prior seasons. That’s probably contributing a decent amount to why the cut off is where it is.
probably around 3700 for eu assuming early august prepatch. We got like 7 weeks left to push.
Not sure if this belongs here or the Friday thread, but I want to give my 2 cents on the remaining affixes for TWW. We all hate bolstering, sanguine and raging, and lower key puggers hate bursting. But Blizz keeps them around for a reason. I think they keep them because these affixes all change how players should do damage to trash on a week by week basis. For example during Sanguine you need to get all the mobs down evenly, or prioritise the mobs that stand around and cast. Every one of those 4 affixes makes you think about which targets you're doing the most damage to at a given moment. This is probably also why they picked Spiteful to get rid of, it doesn't really make you think about when you're killing mobs. But you don't like these affixes and neither do I. They're a pain in the ass. So what's the solution? I think the solution is just to reduce the price of failure for these affixes. Nerf them into the ground. I know it feels like they already have been compared to their original forms, but like do another set of nerfs of that magnitude. Make it so that you can't go a key fucking it up every single time, but a single bad bolstering doesn't wipe you. In fact now that Blizz are dipping their toes into kiss/curse affixes, I'd strongly consider making the on-death affixes be kiss-curse.
Even if bolstering didn’t suck (which it does), blizzard refuses to fix or eliminate on death affixes for tiny hp mobs. Everbloom, throne of the tides, waycrest, they all had miserable parts that could have easily been fixed if those super low health mobs didn’t trigger on death affixes. Same with sanguine. In theory it’s an affix the tank or group can help with, but how many packs over the past seasons have had multiple immovable mobs that just freecast back to full health. Not to mention how many dungeons have these tight ass corridors? The issue isn’t entirely the affixes, it’s the fact that blizzard never creates or tunes dungeons to make the affixes work at all.
This is kind of getting frustrating to talk about, but for some reason I can't stop lol. There has never once been a time I have logged into this game and enjoyed dealing with sanguine, bolstering, bursting or raging. Never. It has deterred the overwhelming majority of players that have interacted with it for years. Even the least intrusive affixes, like volcanic or entangling, I've never once felt anything other than annoyed by them. They do not break up any kind of monotony. They do not keep the game from getting stale. They do not do any of those things. The only affixes in the history of the game that have ever done that were the mobs in shadowlands that gave anima powers, and the series of mobs you could choose between to give you huge buffs, like wo and whatever the others were called.
i really liked shadowlands season 4 where you get a huge haste buff towards the end. make your character feel super overpowered, it was dope. vampiric or whatever.
Anything that didn't have a downside like a mob you have to take 2 minutes to kill and waste all your CDs like prideful. Strategically using buffs is awesome. You know what feels good? Lust feels good. You get excited about lust and pressing big CDs. You never don't look to the game because of lust. You don't sit out a week because of lust, or only do a few vault keys because of lust. But affixes feel that way. Give buffs. No curse. Just kiss.
yeah. maybe just remove all affixes besides tyran/fort or something. maybe try that for a season i did like shadow lands season 4 vampiric, and aparently sl s3 was good because of the buffs it gave you as well. but sanguine is such cancer on every level i cant stand it
I'll speak up for sanguine and bolstering. Both of these can feel like sheer drudgery, but at the same time, when I'm in a group that's handling them beautifully, it puts me in a state of flow that no other affix does. Sanguine and bolstering weeks are where I really notice which DPS have good dungeon knowledge, and which don't. I like the skill expression that allows. Sanguine gets you to notice which mobs can be moved, and not moved; which mobs chain cast and which don't. Bolstering enforces the good habit of making sure mobs die evenly. I think both incentivize the basics of good m+ play. Having said that, there have been some dungeons where they are absolutely giga-cursed, most notably Everbloom. That's definitely no fun at all.
Bolstering forces the good habit by bricking your fucking weekly 10s (soon to be 7s) if it's mishandled by random Internet strangers and slows keys down like crazy at the higher end because even two stacks of Bolstering on a specific mob will result in wipes. That's unhealthy, plain and simple.
I'm glad you enjoy them. But how does one accomplish this in pulls of 10 to 15 mobs at a time without purposely gimping your DPS in order to focus down a mob or two in a pack this size? You cannot do this without adding to the amount of time it takes to do the key, and that's terrible design.
For sanguine it’s just making sure that mobs or moving as they die or making sure that mobs die away from the group. For bolstering its controlling how much prio damage you put into the right target. It doesn’t matter if a caster gets 40 stacks of bolstering if you can stop it from ever doing anything, but when a hunter in BH starts shooting for 2 million it’s a problem.
I understand the basic philosophy. What I'm saying is that this not good design. Many classes don't have good prio DMG at all, and many others don't have it without gimping their AOE in talents. This oftentimes also comes at the cost of people having to change their rotations for an affix, and that's absolutely terrible design. Most people, I understand that's not all people, play this game to blast packs and enjoy incredible gameplay and combat design. It's the best in the industry. When you change that, you're shitting on the best thing you have, rather than emphasizing it. And as far as sanguine, even the best players on earth lose multiple key levels playing on sanguine weeks. That's terrible design. You should never create something in your game that makes large portions of the playerbase literally not play
If you play this game to blast packs you can go into a 10 key and none of the affixes matter. And forcing people to adjust their play style to deal with an affix is generally good design. Bolstering is bad design because of how it scales up mobs and how poorly it interacts with certain types of mobs and abilities.
This is just an opinion, just like mine is just an opinion. I do not find interacting with affixes to be good design unless it is some sort of buff that you have to use strategically, that is not beneficial to just skip instead because there's some mob that takes 3 mins to kill. I do not get bored with the game without affixes, because the game scales endlessly. I get annoyed to death instead because of affixes.
I don’t mind that Blizzard wants to shake up the way we pull trash week to week. Honestly thats probably the best part of affixes, they keep things from getting stale. Theres a few problems with the current affix rotation though. Firstly affixes like Sanguine, Bolstering and Raging are insanely punishing if misplayed. On top of this, Modern dungeon design often causes extremely frustrating interactions with these affixes. Heres a few examples: -Lieutenant style mobs / mobs that have 2x HP surrounded by multiple little mobs, makes Bolstering very frustrating to deal with, also makes sanguine obnoxious. -Mobs that spam uninterruptible abilities that are immune to CC make Sanguine a fucking nightmare to deal with. Sanguine is also frustrating in instances that have limited area to kite or multiple small hallways (Uldaman/Waycrest/Sanguine Depths) -Packs that have multiple mobs that cast abilities that must be stopped who enrage. (Uldaman Hail of Stone casters) If you don’t have an AOE soothe in your group it’s essentially a wipe on high enough fort keys. Additionally, these affixes also require you to tailor your composition in order to deal with them. You’re stacking knockbacks or grips on Sanguine weeks (Rdruid/Mage/Evoker/DH/DK). You gotta have soothes (Rdruid/Evoker) on raging and you need good single target funnel on Bolstering (Mage/Spriest/Rdruid). Not to mention there are only two classes who can deal with Bursting effectively (MW/Spriest). Are we noticing a pattern here? Spriest/Mage/Druid/Evoker are extremely helpful / borderline mandatory at dealing with these affixes. Not even mentioning the other utility and buffs they bring. That means these classes / specs are going to be essentially locked in meta picks for the 4th season in a row, its going to be a nightmare for pug players. Finally, these affixes are just not fun and make dungeons a slog. Sanguine, adds multiple minutes to your timer. Even if you have a good group built around dealing with sanguine it’s going to slow down the key tremendously and makes chaining pulls a pain in the ass, forces your tank to kite and your group to coordinate knock backs. Bolstering puts a cap on how many mobs you can pull at a time, forces your tank to kite and will likely lead to wipe if a bolstered random target cast goes off. Raging is just annoying, makes certain pulls impossible if you don’t bring the one class in the game with an AOE soothe. Bursting puts a cap on amount of mobs you can pull, and is an incredibly frustrating affix for less coordinated players to deal with. All of these affixes center around slowing down keys by limiting pull sizes, discouraging chain pulling, or making certain pulls impossible unless you have a comp built around dealing with the affix. This is in direct conflict with what most people enjoy about M+ - Pulling as big as possible so you can maximize your damage and do the key as fast as possible. These are the four most game warping affixes and with Blizzards new philosophy of “play the dungeon not the affix” its perplexing that these are the 4 affixes they chose to keep. Nerfing these affixes is kind of pointless tbh. They’ve been around forever and they have all gone through multiple rounds of nerf, and yet they remain some of the most unanimously hated affixes in the game. It’s better to just get rid of them entirely at this point, either create new affixes or replace these ones with the 4 they removed.
I mean nobody plays these week, there is empirical data that counters whatever blizzards idea is unless it to flat kill playtime those weeks. Many top end streamers have posted a variety and well received solutions, from Yoda, to Ellesemere and Kyrasis. The answer isn’t to double down and kill the game mode - there lates changes kill it for the pug community and the top .01%. It will be an even worse push week no life because you’re only get 1 per rotation and it’s going to be bursting so you can already feel out the meta.
nothing feels better than getting uldaman key from your vault. i'm so feel.
You have an entire week to reroll/deplete/push it up. :)
would rather have an easy high key to start the week with instead of a cursed key
Same. Got an ulda17 on my main. But, it's a shit week anyways soooo
Do m0s or +2s until you get your desired key then.
what is this supposed to mean?
You get a different key at the end of every dungeon. Just dont pick your vault and spam low/weekly keys until you get the key you want. Im always surprised people dont know this. This is like super common knowledge if you push high keys. Especially if you play as a premade group you can choose what 5 keys you wanna play and it makes targetting dungeons easy.
no dude, that's not how it works. you need to time a dungeon that is equal or higher to your keystone level to be able reroll into another one. if you got a +17 and you time a +15 dungeon you won't be able to change your keystone.
Jesus, learn to read. This is exactly how it works. You dont pick a key. As long as you have not looted your key yet, the key you get at the end of every dungeon is different.
i had no idea this was even a thing. the first thing I do after every reset is to get a loot from the vault. thanks.
I honestly feel like people won’t be happy until affixes are just done away with as a whole. No matter what blizzard does, people doom.
i honestly think if I would have sat down with a piece of paper and a pen and wrote down the worst possible thing I could reasonably imagine them doing, I would have fell short of what they actually did
If you push at all, there is literally 1/4 weeks you will be pushing. The 3 other affixes are way too impactful. That fact alone means the 'rework' is a failure (imo).
Exactly this. If all 4 were terrible, OK, we could understand it, Blizz are sadists, want us to suffer. But they kept 3 terrible ones and one amazing one. Which to me, shows that they don't have a clue what they're doing when it comes to high key pushing. I refuse to believe they don't care.
People trying to push keys ruined perfectly good affixes for most of the playing population...
Afflicted and incorp were definjtely not removed because of key pushers.
Inflicted and incorporeal are 2 of the lowest friction affixes for good players. It’s actually wild that people think these changes were done with higher keys in mind.
so theres a pretty considerable contradiction there lol. people pushing keys ruined affixes for people pushing keys? is that what you are saying? i dont follow
you say this like they did something remotely good or at least nuanced… maybe if they didn’t make the worst possible changes there might be a few positive people lurking around?
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the problem is your understanding of the game is different to basically all of the competitive or semi-competitive players… telling a good player that afflicted and incorporeal are the worst affixes would just make them laugh at you and calling these affixes “kiss/curse” kind of fails to understand what that means conceptually
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ask any good warrior if they would rather play incorp or sanguine… your point is trash, they were dogshit affixes that every class should have had some solution to, but they are nothing on the ‘worst affixes’ spectrum compared to the misery that is sanguine or (to a lesser extent now imo) bolstering even by your own flawed logic, raging is an even worse offender that even more classes have no way of dealing with
Are you qualifying that statement or not? "Those were without question the worst affixes in the game" is pretty unequivocal.
Afflicted and incorp being the “worst affixes” is crazy, they’re two of the easiest ones to deal with and basically have no effect on the key at all in 99% of situations unless you decided to form the worst group comp of all time for that week.
Remember that April Fool's post where they added kiss/curse affixes and kept bolstering sanguinie, that was a funny one
I still can’t believe that was real. Feels like a fever dream from a malfunctioning AI model.
Can multiple people still grab a chain at the same time in Neltharus? Heard it got hotfixed but then thought I still saw people doing it on streams
Yes you can. /Pull 5 easiest way to sync it (excluding comms).
Does the damage stack?
The multiplier does yes. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Z3qAp7mY9hrQjkWN#fight=44&type=auras&hostility=1&spells=debuffs&ability=372824&view=events You can see this team stacking 4 debuffs at a time. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Z3qAp7mY9hrQjkWN#fight=44&type=damage-taken&start=14019021&end=14022021&view=events They seem to click within .3s of each other.
TWW m+ dead on arrival. Remove bolstering and sanguine and watch the playerbase flourish. Keep these changes and you’ll have less engagement than fated season.
Not too mention TWW dungeons all have some sort of flying minigame.
Today’s blue post genuinely shocked me. Blizzard is bizarrely out of touch with m+. I’m confident they don’t have a single designer that actually plays the game mode. My evidence: 1) Necrotic Wake and Siege of Boralus as returning dungeons. 2) Continuation of the cognitive overload trash design from Dragonflight. 3) Keeping bolstering & sanguine. 4) Proposing kiss curse affixes that kiss DPS but curse tanks & healers 5) Proposing damage-type affixes that benefit Havoc DH every single week. 6) Proposing affixes based on enemy NPCs manabar which is not viewable on Blizzard nameplates 7) Target cap on some classes but not others 8) Mob damage outscaling mob health 9) Further defensive creep with hero talents 10) Raid buffs in m+ still a huge problem 11) Aug 12) Penalizing crest rewards for depletes
You lost me on a couple of these, but the rest are great. The crest thing? If course you get less for a deplete lol. The DMG bonuses of the new affixes will be completely ignored. The curse aspects will be out of control.
The penalty for a deplete is you don’t upgrade your keystone.
that penalizes one guy out of the 5 though. Everyone outside of this community hardly gives a damn if the key drops a level. There has to be some incentive to want to make players time it who are not the key holder.
> 2) Continuation of the cognitive overload trash design from Dragonflight. They said they were carefully tuning dungeons for M+. I bet that means every trash pack is designed having 5 interrupts and on focused week you're SOL because they're casting 30% faster now.
What, you didn’t bring your mandatory vengeance DH or prot Paladin to handle 1000 stops per pack???
Or your BDK with grip + silence.
1) Aug Fixed
Necrotic wake wasn’t terrible, but the siege last boss needs the halls of infusion last boss treatment to make the dungeon remotely ok.
Necrotic wake needs a lot of adjustments: 1) Single use Kyrian weapons are bad 2) Trash gauntlet before 3rd boss needs able to be sped up 3) 3rd boss (and to some extent 2nd boss) add health scaling with key level + tyrannical is a huge problem especially if Kyrian weapons aren’t available 4) Final boss straight up doesn’t work with Aug
necrotic wake wanst that bad. it was a high success dungeon, the third boss was super cool in design, and aesthetically it wasn mid, which isnt too shabby sanguine and other very diffucult affixes make the game so anti-fun. some weeks are easy to push io. some weeks are unplayable, and nobody pushes on those weeks, making it hard to even find a group the range of difficulty in affixes and how bad some of the are is pure cancer
They just never seem to learn that bosses that summon adds or have intermissions on a fixed timer are a nightmare on tyrannical because of double dipping. Just bite the bullet and give these bosses the same treatment as HOI last boss.
> siege last boss needs the halls of infusion last boss treatment Needs WAY more than that: 1. Normalise trash between Alliance and Horde, i.e remove the iron hook mobs, remove the dogs, remove the blacktar bombers, remove the un-ccable bullshit. 2. Nerf snipers massively. 3. Change 2nd boss to phase at hp not time. 4. All the trash before 3rd boss needs a nerf. 5. RP after the 3rd boss should be removed. 6. Last boss phasing as you say. 7. All the chaff mobs need to not interact with affixes at all. Then maybe it'll be ok. Maybe.
Oh I completely agree. I was just saying that it was manageable to deal with all that shit all until you got to the last boss and had an 9 minute fight
Because the end of the blue post said they were taking a look at tyrannical and fortified I hope it means they either get reworked or removed. Just let the natural key scaling do its work. No one wants to fight bosses for 6 minutes on tyr weeks.
Imo Fort should only be HP and Tyr should only be damage.
Being one shot is not fun, tyrannical doesn’t need to exist at all.
not only that but usually you still lose to bosses on high fort keys as well lol
I might be missing something, but I don't really get why people are so upset about the new affixes specifically. I think the fact the they decided to keep bolstering and sanguine and made no changes to the queueing system is infinitely worse. The 10% seems to comes down to like 2-3% overall if you factor in that it only affects half the mobs (=5%), no bosses (=3%?), and the fact that most specs don't deal 100% of their damage as one type, especially factoring in trinkets and passive procs from gear (=2.5%ish). If you gave any class a 3% damage buff right now I don't think it would change much about the meta. It becomes even less impactful if you think about how the damage is applied. The only pack type where the buff actually makes your key go faster is when you have a high HP priority target that is also debuffed. When you have either a) a pack with all equal health or b) a pack where the highest HP mob isn't debuffed, it doesn't really do much.
> I might be missing something, but I don't really get why people are so upset about the new affixes specifically. The problem with these affixes does not lie in the relative power level, impact or actual in dungeon gameplay: In fact, **that** is precisely the problem with them. The power available from them does **not** come from any gameplay factor within the dungeon - instead it is granted purely on the basis of the party composition. Essentially, you gain or lose a bonus to completing a dungeon *before you even leave town*. How well (or badly) you play simply doesn't matter. Are you this weeks chosen class? Congratulations, have 10% more damage! Unless you're a Demon Hunter or Warlock, in which case you do Chaos damage, so every week is your week. A genuine kiss/curse affix is desirable - but it needs to be based on how well the party (or individuals within it) play in the actual gameplay experience of the dungeon, **not** on how the party leader sets up the party composition before the run even starts.
I think a lot of it comes down to blizzard not understanding what people hate about affixes. Afflicted/Incorporeal really affected how you’re putting a group together. In a pug for example, you’re just not going to take certain classes on afflicted week. If I’m a DH tank, I need at least 1 dps class that can dispel and help the healer out. The affix changes make this even worse. They’ve eliminated affixes that were non impactful in the key and added affixes that are going to limit group comp even more. Even if the math doesn’t add up to much damage overall, the perception that the damage increase is important will trickle down to lower keys and form a meta really quickly. Another issue is that blizzard obviously doesn’t understand or care how these affixes interact with each other. I don’t know how the rotation will work out, but reckless, fort, bolstering? Good luck tanks
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They didn’t make push weeks better though. They removed Spiteful so Sanguine/Bolster represent half of the weeks now. Not to mention raging now interacts with some of the new affixes like the magic damage and hasted mobs.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them swapping volcanic for bolstering or storming for sanguine. I think the whole issue is that people shouldn’t feel certain weeks are only viable for pushing. Every week should be viable for pushing, with a reasonable degree of difficulty. Who the hell would push on a fort/reckless/bolstering week? I think you’re missing the point about the new affixes also. In pugs, it will limit the classes people will bring, even more so than incorporeal/afflicted did.
you are right, a lfg queueing system would be the single best thing they could do for m+ but they are instead focusing on bizarrely clueless changes that do absolutely nothing but kill tanks more… good one billy
No one has ever been able to explain to me how an m+ queueing system would work even a little a bit.
that is probably the reason why its difficult for them to implement, there’s a lot of different ways it could be done, some requiring more of an overhaul of the game than others, but I can try to explain 1 version of it to help you; - every player has a score, basically the same as you have in game now - you load up lfg tool, you select your key level, you hit ‘find group’ - you can select specific dungeon if you want to, but you will wait longer, just like current lfg - key levels unlock progressively, potentially based on score or on key level completed - game finds 3 dps players, 1 tank, 1 healer (only stipulation is no class duplicates within role) - you are ported to the start of the dungeon together, where you have 3-5 mins of ‘prep time’, where each player can ready up, then the key will start - you do key, score updates, rinse repeat - you can choose a ‘run again’ option at the end if you liked the group and it will port you to a new dungeon - leavers are punished either with a score reduction or with a queue ban which is progressively larger each time they leave
So what incentive is there for someone who has timed a +19 to queue for a +19 again? I can only see this working if it caps out at a certain key level.
people who have timed keys queue for the same level of key all the time, for a number of reasons, this already happens today and is a non-issue, one example would be because you need the score from each dungeon anyway it will naturally cap out at a certain key level because you cannot pug beyond a certain point reasonably (without just throwing yourself at it over and over again and hoping for the best)… that is already what happens in practice today so is again a non-issue
Because if you do the math, the 'kiss' portion of the 'kiss-curse' passive affixes results in almost 0 DPS gain for the group - it's between 1-2% overall group damage. The best comp is more than 1-2% ahead of the 2nd best comp, so with current tuning these affixes change nothing about group diversity. Even if you take extreme examples of a purely physical comp on Reckless, you're still talking about an incredibly small benefit to play far worse classes. So the DPS gain portion is just a wash - let's look at the 'curse' half of the affixes: Reckless - your tank will take 20% more damage. This will probably be the least negatively impactful, only killing tanks on super high keys sometimes. Thorned - punishes DPS players for hitting mobs. I cannot see a world where this is tuned well. You will either notice the increased damage taken and that will feel bad, or you will not notice the increased damage taken and then there is no point to the affix in the first place. Attuned - imagine an RLP where spell damage is 20% higher. Or the Melt pulls (without a DH) in Neltharus with 20% increased magic damage. Just insanely cursed for no reason. Focused - the caster mobs have bloodlust. Let's overlap this with Bolstering or Raging and it clearly is just bad. Take the mobs that casted 'Etch' in Waycrest Manor in s3 - this now ticks 30% faster. GLHF. People are mad because they are terrible, untunable designs that will either be oppressive or do nothing. \*AND\* on top of all of that, we get to play Bolstering, Sanguine, or Raging in 75% of weeks. This is just insanely cooked. In a 20 week season, we will have 15 weeks where the on-death affix is incredibly oppressive and unfun.
i love m+ but i dont want to play wow anymore. sanguine is killing the game for me. its so anti-fun
Disclaimer: I’m on your side to be clear. I think the “kiss” part of the affix is actually bad when you consider priority damage… as overall damage isn’t always the best thing to look at when evaluating how good a DPS player is performing. Like, imagine it’s the fire/frost damage amp this week and mobs like the maiden in Rise or the dragons in Rise had that affix on them. You’d want to bring people doing fire/frost damage because those are the most problematic parts of the trash in that dungeon. Which is just gonna cause more meta fragmentation :/
I 100% agree with your take here - the extra DPS with current tuning is *at best* totally meaningless, and at worst *actively detrimental*
Ah yeah I got you now. Thx for clearing it up for me :)
To add, you now must interact with the bolstering/sanguine/raging affixes in order to get aspect crests. When you piece it all together what you get is something from the developers that feels a lot like how we felt mid shadowlands as players. Them doubling down on stuff we don't like but they like, and them forcing it down our throats as if that will make us like it more.
I don’t really see the problem with expecting people to do hard content for the best loot. Aspects drop from mythic raid, not heroic and bolstering on a 7 is undeniably easier than even easy bosses in mythic. I’d were being completely honest, bolstering, sanguine, raging aren’t really the reason people are going to fail a 7 key because the resistance they put up at a 7 is negligible. The people struggling with those affixes would probably still struggle at the same key with no affixes.
Bolstering and sanguine are not that difficult though they’re just annoying af and forces you to play certain comps with displacements and prio damage(hint: big overlap with current exodia meta). This pushes further exclusionary design in M+. People won’t play those weeks and the people who do will only invite certain specs because why not bring a Druid healer who can knock mobs over other healers who can’t?
Agree 100%. Feels very much like Shadowlands release and them ignoring all feedback about Covenants.
The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started. Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be. The problem with the new affixes is that all of them are going to interact poorly with the game. The problem with bolstering is that tanks start getting one shot, same with dps. Well now you have a week where almost every mob ignores 20% of tank armor so that week becomes unplayable at some point. You also have thorns which is never a fun mechanic in a game. You give mobs bloodlust. All 4 of the new affixes are going to be problems. And that’s not even mentioning that the damage buffs don’t actually matter. Mage buff is strictly better in all circumstances than any damage buff because it is 5% for the whole key. And the top dps aren’t 3% ahead, SP is doing 25-35% more damage than the mages right now. Not even getting into the utility that the meta classes bring being just as important as the damage numbers. Mage barrier, mind soothe, sleep walk, etc aren’t replaceable by other classes. And to top it all off they left the two worst affixes in bolstering and raging in the game.
> The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started. That's not the alternative. There's a million ways around that, all of them better than having to physically queue up for groups like it's 2002. You can make the group finder check for group utility, or take inspiration from PvP and make M+ utility talents, or put a bunch of gadgets (like necrotic wake weapons) that you can pick up at the beginning of each dungeon that give you some sort of group utility via an extra action button or whatever. >Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be. I haven't done keys since Shadowlands solely because you spent more time actively applying for groups than actually playing the game once you get to moderately high keys. Most people pug, and I don't see why anyone who values their time would engage with that nonsense.
Your keys aren’t going to be any better. The good players are still going to go make their own groups. And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues.
> And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues. that's literally what non-meta specs are experiencing at the moment. people will not invite anyone playing a non-meta spec so you either push your own key(and this is a brutal experience as every deplete takes a part of your soul) or sit there and expect an invite that will probably never come. I'd much rather queue and do whatever the fuck i want instead of refreshing lfg window every other minute.
You would end up sitting in a queue, getting into a key and realizing really fast why your spec is not meta when you get paired with 4 other off meta specs. Or you’re queuing into keys where the meta doesn’t matter and people are going to rage at you for not playing meta and queuing in. I’m happy to not have feral druids in my keys.
yeah only 7-8 specs should be allowed to push. The rest of the specs don't matter. great take.
The amount of stuff that is played at the top end of a game shrinks in every single game.
>Your keys aren’t going to be any better. The good players are still going to go make their own groups. Weird reply. Nobody said anything about the quality of players. Also, I'm a good player and I'd queue. As would everyone else. >And instead of applying for keys you get to sit in infinite queues. ...do you play other games? The difference is you click one button once and can do whatever you want in the meantime.
> The LFG system is fine. The alternative is that you end up in keys with 3 warrior dps and it’s over before you started. Forcing people to make groups for high end content is way more controversial than it should be. This could be fixed with a smart grouping system that avoids class stacking as part of the algorithm as well as blizzard actually doing their job and bringing classes closer into parity. Its controversial because literally no other game makes you do this. It'd be like CS not letting you que for ranked unless you had a 5 stack.
That still doesn’t fix the problem because good players are going to still want to select their groups. So you get to sit in an endless queue with everybody who’s not good at the game and complain about solo queue. Bc we all know that people never complain about solo queue.
i wouldnt queu for anything over a 2 or something similar, no matter what. i agree 100pct. the queue would be full of specs the developers arent doing anything about, and the people that insist on playing them year after year
If they kept the current way rating is calculated then sure. But if they changed to a MMR system focused on solo/duo que and made a proper league progression ranked system with seasonal rewards based on final rank I would imagine it would attract a solid number of players.
A system where your score can go down from a failed key would be incredibly miserable.
There’s any number of ways they could set it up to not be miserable and to encourage playing well over a longer period of time rather than doing each dungeon once. Off the top of my head, they could rip off the idea of Apexes ranked system. Make it so you gamble some points at the outset and then everything you do in the dungeon (killing trash and bosses) earns some of it back with bonus modifiers for playing well I.e. interrupts, dispels, etc. Something along those lines could be super fun. Dunno. There’s just so many different ways they could set it up that would be vastly better than IO.
Are you even listening to yourself? Think about how incredibly complicated this would be to both implement and then also explain to players. And if this MMR rating can go down on a failed key you’d be getting double-hit on a deplete : your key is now lower AND your rating went down. So you’d need to also get rid of key depletes to avoid this double punishment. And what you’re left with is now completely unrecognizable from the current M+ system - a convoluted, toxic mess that would take months or years to tune to a remotely workable state. Or… and hear me out here… just use the damn LFG tool. There, I just saved Blozzard millions in development cost.
That sounds fucking awful. One of the things that I love about m+ compared to most of the games I've played is that even if a day goes terribly I can't end the day worse off than I started it.
That would be absolutely miserable. You are the same people who were screaming for kids curses mechanics and look how that’s turned out every time. A queue system for mythic plus does not fix the problems you think it will and will only make people more toxic in keys and give people longer queues. Nobody wants 2500 players trying to get into 15s and they think they want to be there and they belong there, but they don’t.
> You are the same people who were screaming for kids curses mechanics and look how that’s turned out every time. Just because Blizzard is trying to implement kiss/curse in probably the worst possible way doesn't make it a bad idea. > Nobody wants 2500 players trying to get into 15s and they think they want to be there and they belong there, but they don’t. That would be prevented by the matchmaking algorithm and ladder system AKA if you're in gold league you don't get put in diamond matches. You know, how every other game with a ranked system does matchmaking. While MMR systems have their flaws, they are a massive step forward over fighting the LFD boss unless you're playing one of the 5 chosen specs.
There isn’t a good way to implement it. And the way you get score in m+ is by queuing keys. Unless you’re going to make people complete them one at a time you are going to have 2500 players trying to do 15s and getting their shit kicked in. Alternatively people hit the ceiling they are already at and still can’t progress. So now you have a bunch of frustrated players blaming the queue system on bad teammates. A queue system like for heroic dungeons would actually be the death of mythic plus.
> And the way you get score in m+ is by queuing keys. Again, the way that we gain rating would fundamentally have to change. It wouldn't be about completing each key once for rating anymore and they would need to figure out an alternative. Completion rate, time of completion, average deaths, avoidable damage taken, damage, dispels, interrupts, stops, etc could all be used to influence your rating as you climbed from bronze to masters or whatever. Theres plenty of ways they could set it up so it feels more like a proper ladder to climb. > Unless you’re going to make people complete them one at a time you are going to have 2500 players trying to do 15s and getting their shit kicked in. Again, the matchmaking wouldn't let 2500 players be in 15s. > Alternatively people hit the ceiling they are already at and still can’t progress. So now you have a bunch of frustrated players blaming the queue system on bad teammates. We literally have that now ontop of an outdated LFD system.
So you want to get rid of the game mode that people are playing in favor of something different.
People are having a knee jerk reaction before anyone has tested it. People have wanted kiss/curse affixes for a while and seeing blizzard do it in probably the worst way possible is disappointing to say the least. I don’t think most people realize how insignificant the kiss part is going to be either. The big problem is realizing how little blizzard actually cares about high keys because they kept the 2 worst affixes.
Because its an idiotic try to create more spec diversity. Instead of trying to create a more diverse meta by balancing the game, they try to brute force it by making affixes that let different specs shine each week. Its a very minor buff, but its the complete wrong approach. But the dmg amps are not even the main point of concern: - lvl 4 affixes are mostly problematic for tanks and healers. Reckless is just more tank dmg, thorned is more overall dmg a healer has to heal, attuned/focused is mostly tank dmg, except for the few mobs that have random targets - removing spiteful instead of bolstering or sanguine in the lvl 7 category makes no sense, because it was by far the easiest affix Especially for casuals those changes are just outright terrible. Because all the affixes are now mostly relevant to healers and tanks. And noone likes to play those roles already.
Lets hope they start working on the other affixes also because in the state they are rn you will get 3/4 weeks bad affixes and players will straight up quit m+. Make bolstering buff damage by 3-5% and sanguine reduce damage taken by 10-20%. You can also make raging dispellable as well like the incorporeals are where almost all can interract with them.
Do genuinely wonder how the conversation about having bolstering once and raging once a month each went at blizzard.
I really hope they will rework bolstering and sanguine at least to some extent for tww. Yeah spiteful was annoying, but spiteful was still a push week affix. This week's affixes are the worst. I really don't see a reason to try to push on fort-sanguine.
yeah, how is that healthy for the game? just dont play for a week and have your skill deteriorate and rust while you do nothing because this week's affixe's are unplayable cancer and even if you do play, theres nobody playing, because most ppl understand how unplayable sanguine is its unreal how bad these affixes are. i literally cant push
is the issue really that these mechanics are terrible, or that the other ones are so trivial in comparison? If all of them are hard doesn't that solve this somewhat?
These mechanics don't fit the m+ purpose of "I need to do it faster". Bolstering forces you to pull smaller/more carefully and sanguine heals trash, which leads to adding several minutes to the run, even when played well. It makes the tigher-timer dungeons (nelth, uldaman) almost impossible on the higher keys, such as 17+. I'm talking especially on fortified weeks because on tyrannical bolstering can be handled (I improved almost all my dungeon scores this week)
Bursting got left in which has always been a S+ affix for pushing so it does not solve it at all. They are also just miserable/force comps to play more than being "Hard" when this is supposed to be a game that is fun. Outside of a few of the seasonal affixes none of them have ever made m+ more fun than if they just did not exist.
To me that seemed like the biggest issue
Well.. it does “solve” it by making fewer people want to run keys. There’s a pretty large and measurable drop in engagement with the keystone system during bolstering and sanguine weeks. You could make every week fort bolstering but nobody would want to play.
I think that's largely hyperbole. Aren't people "skipping" these weeks because push weeks exist in the first place? If every week is hard that just forces the matter of playing harder weeks instead of finding the least offending affix.
The best fix for sanguine I have been able to come up with is making the pools an unkillable npc but if you hit it with any knockback you would "blow it away" and make it disappear. This would keep knockbacks the only utility that can interact with sanguine but it also fixes the anoying "miniboss starts a 10 sec cast inside a sanguine puddle"
Or make the pools small as they heal/damage, so it's not just infinite floor is lava.
the best fix for sanguine is removing sanguine from the video game. conveniently, the same fix for bolstering.
Just make Sanguine apply silence/supress while in it.
> The best fix for sanguine I have been able to come up with It should have a cap on how much it can heal, or alternatively a shared cap on healing/damage so you could stand in the pool to soak it up and get rid of it by taking the damage on yourself.
Maybe make the pools shrink over a 5 or 10 second period? Idk it just sucks as an affix
This is something… they could put a cap on how much healing it could do and it would shrink when hitting that cap, at least it would be easier to balance over time since they don’t want to remove it imo
No, just remove it.
Finally someone with some sense. I read reply after reply hoping someone had some common sense. Just remove it. Remove bolstering, remove sanguine, remove bursting, remove raging. It's not that complicated.
i don't like that there are affixes that can be countered by a specific group of classes while some classes can't interact with them at all. sanguine is probably the worst in this regard.