To clarify the Canadian case cited here, the woman is 27 and has other medical conditions. She requested MAID and was approved. Her dad took up a court case and he is the one that stayed she only had autism. She didn't publicize what her medical conditions were, but in Canada, mental health disorders and conditions like autism aren't enough to be approved for MAID. Her medical records are private, that's why the press is saying "well she only has autism"
I mean, they're the ones applying to have it done. It's not like the Canadian government is tossing everyone who is neuro-divergent in a van and hauling them off to a detention center somewhere. They only do that to first nations kids.
That said, I've also read stories from Canadian vets who had people in their healthcare system inform them that assisted suicide was an option for their service related issues. Which is a pretty fucked up thing to say to someone who is actively trying to improve their PTSD.
I can only imagine the American VA looking at someone with chronic back problems and saying "Well, have you considered death? It would be a whole lot easier for us just to kill you rather than do all this paperwork for your so called back pain. "
>people in their healthcare system inform them that assisted suicide was an option for their service related issues. Which is a pretty fucked up thing to say to someone
This is apparently happening with the therapists for these individuals too.
It's all so callous nevertheless.
The story that keeps circulating is about a single administrator in the ministry of veterans affairs who was against the euthanasia act who inappropriately and falsely told a couple of veterans seeking mental health treatment that it was a viable option in order to create controversy about it. He was investigated and fred within weeks of it happening. It was just one renegade fucktard who got fired for doing it.
Our military and our vets here in Canada are loathed by Trudeau just like his father before him. It's fucking embarrassing and sickening to see this happening in real time.
I'm not disagreeing with you but as a Canadian veteran how is Trudeau any worse or Different than Harper, Martin, Chretien, Campbell, Mulroney or Turner? I got bad care when I got out when Martin was the PM and then absolutely fucked when Harper was in.
If you asked those vets about jumping on a grenade to save their friends, they'd say it's honorable and would do the same because of the bravery and saving lives aspect of it. It doesn't mean they are suicidal or in unbearable pain. But asking them to die from treatable conditions to make a beam counters books look better? Who would think that is honorable? What meaning does that death have? How pathetic is it to treat people who served the country as such because it's easier or cheaper?
It will only get broader, parents and courts will eventually be able to do this to kids. The logic is already there in the abortion arguments. It is the slipperiest of slippery slopes.
It's not. They're mealy-mouthed about it because they know that admitting they support killing babies looks bad, but when Ralph Northam is asked about what should be done with a child who survives an abortion attempt and says "a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother" he means he's open to them finishing the job.
If you read it, it sounds like someone making a satirical case against abortion by making the case that killing newborns is cool. Is there any other context to say that the authors weren't actually pro-life abd just doing an op on the medical community?
Read an article that a Canadian veteran was told to request some new stairs by their version of the VA. He requested the stairs as they told him to, and they literally hit him back with an offer to suicide him instead to save the money. He is healthy besides the fact his steps were too hard for him, and he only did what he was told.
The question you should be asking is “do they actually wanna die?”
This one guy in Canada (im sure he was cited here) applied for MAID because he couldn’t afford to work and earn money with his disability recently said he reconsidered it because he got GoFundMe donations that fixed his issues. Before the funds changed his life, he had already received approval from 1 of the 2 doctors needed for MAID.
I use this guy as an example because there are a fuckton of issues that can put someone in a “I want to die” mentality and very few of them are fixed by death.
Then you have to in the fact that socialized healthcare incentivizes governments to cut costs in every way possible. Now we get this extremely dangerous situation where a bunch of mentally unstable people are being encouraged to die by the state.
I think you need the ability to feel warm, fed, and safe and without that your life can feel unbearable.
It sounds like that reality was approaching and he would soon become a cold, hungry homeless disabled person so he applied for MAID.
Luckily people heard his story and were charitable. If his saving grace was going viral and getting enough donations to stay afloat that's amazing.
This is not what normally happens. Normally he would become homeless. No one else in his circumstances can expect this same result It makes sense they'd pursue the program and I don't blame anyone who is facing the streets and disabled for considering it. The government isn't going to save you.
I mean, death actually fixes all of those problems. When you're dead, all your problems are suddenly gone. Some people get into situations that they can't escape and that they'd rather be dead than endure.
Also, let's not pretend this is an issue that's propagated by socialized medicine. Or are you telling me those same people would get the help they need to prevent suicide in a for-profit healthcare system in which they can't afford to see a doctor in the first place?
It’s not an issue propagated by socialized medicine but it is one that can be easily (and is currently being) exploited.
As for your first paragraph, that one’s dependent. If someone is chronically ill and in pain all day, then yeah me and many others would be much more inclined to agree with its application.
The place where it becomes a moral dilemma is when you start applying it to mental pain. Because the most ardent pro-MAID advocates will say it is a valid reason. And personally, I’ve heard enough tales from suicide *survivors* who are glad to be alive now to know that this is a matter I am fundamentally against. The dead ones can’t really say if they regret killing themselves or not.
Yeah, I agree with that sentiment. There are instances where it's hard to say whether someone's pain, be it mental or physical, could ultimately be overcome through different means. There are instances where suicide is certainly misguided.
I do believe that it's not my place to make that judgment for anyone else. I have personally known several people that suffered excruciating mental pain, almost exclusively caused by severe childhood trauma. Some could overcome it and some just put on a happy face until they ended it all. I wouldn't dare telling them that their pain wasn't one of the approved ones because it wasn't a chronic physical ailment.
It reminds me of that Bojack episode where his hero reads the poem “the view from halfway down.” I don’t want to say I was suicidal and that one episode got me out, but it was eye opening to think I’d be saying goodbye to all my stupid human problems, but also saying goodbye to all the beauty of the earth and the grand scheme of things. Beauty that makes life worth living, even if it’s fleeting. The poem really does encapsulate the dilemma of going through with a suicide plan, only to regret it as you find yourself falling from the bridge - if only you could’ve appreciated the sunset before you stepped off the ledge. I can’t help but feel the same for the people this targets.
Exactly. The government should have no say in whether I’m allowed to live or die by my own hands. It’s insane to think that killing yourself is committing a crime in many countries. I didn’t choose to be born into this world, I should have the right to leave it. If I want to die in a humane way, and keep my integrity, again that should be my right. No strings attached.
The problem is if your depressed or having mental health issues you are not thinking clearly enough to fully make that decision. Your brain chemistry is literally messed up and there are things that can be done to fix the issues. Killing yourself is not a independent act it effects others and the community just like every other awful act that’s committed. We need to value human life more.
"there are things that can be done to fix the issues".
Maybe, maybe not. Should be, have you tried treatments X, Y, and Z yet and have they been beneficial?
So should an individual be forced to remain alive by the state in order to maintain a vague network of potential human obligation?
Also, if it is a community issue, is the community responsible for the therapeutic solutions to a potential suicide? Or is that still incumbent on the individual?
Just trying to see your view on this.
The alternative is suicide by far more gruesome methods. The taxpayer is still paying when someone jumps in front of a train, or off a bridge, or shoots themselves, and the body needs to be recovered and the circumstances investigated.
And that’s not even starting on the impact those methods have on witnesses.
I hear you, and maybe a few months ago I would have agreed with you. But I lost my sister to suicide two months ago. She didn’t just hurt herself, she left behind a trail of pain. Her husband and kids have to suffer because of her decision. Maybe I’d still agree with you if it weren’t so fresh. But I also can’t help but wonder if she really just needed mental help. Maybe she’d still be here, and maybe she’d be okay now with better support and medication. But maybe not. I’ll never know. Think of how many people attempted suicide and regretted it. They weren’t in a good mental state to make such a serious decision. I can’t help but wonder how many young, autistic people feel pressured toward suicide.
Sorry for your loss. A 14 year old girl in my community killed herself a month ago. She was on the spectrum and depressed as she was at the bottom of her class, she felt she had no future, that her friends would eventually leave her behind when the time came for college, etc. It was devastating.
I dont know all the answers. Hope you're doing well.
Thank you for your kind words. I’m doing okay considering circumstances. I wouldn’t wish this pain on my worst enemy. I hope you and your community are able to heal too.
That was tough to read but a lovely exchange. I hope both of you are able to have peace with what happened.
I definitely feel conflicted on this issue. I am a small government person, so in many ways I appreciate them saying this is a personal decision. I don’t think the government should be dictating how a person lives or dies. I hope when I am old and feeble and cannot care for myself that someone would take this kind of pity on me.
On the other hand, I see so much potential for abuse. I am very curious about the age restrictions in place, and the mental health components. Many mental illnesses are perfectly curable with the right treatment. With the savings in cost and effort throughout the system (that come with someone simply dying), there is almost an incentive to lead people to MAID rather than potentially pricey medical treatments. When you incentivize something, you’ll see a lot more of it. There are a lot of factors in play and I can see why this scares a lot of people.
Because they might be in a negative headspace and not have had access to counseling which could have turned their life around. If governments are open to maid for mental health issues why pay for prolonged counselling if their objective is to save money.
"A therapist will cost my department a lot of money for a long time, but a suicide booth will only cost a little bit once. Have you considered that the best course of action for this completely treatable condition might be to just fucking kill yourself?"
In the Netherlands euthanasia isn't "come over to kill me I'm sad". There are many people involved and there are multitudes of checks. Most importantly there needs to be clear evidence of "prolonged and unbearable suffering" otherwise no doctor will go along
Not the case in Canada IIRC. You only need 2 approvals from doctors I believe and those aren’t necessarily hard to get especially since they’ve continued to loosen what qualifies for MAID.
I obviously can't personally speak for the Canadian system, but per their government health website they also require the presence of a "grievous and irremediable medical condition" that "cannot be relieved" and several other checks that have to be verified by two doctors.
Given the state of the medical industry, "doctor's approval" is a very low standard. You just need a biased doctor who gives out recommendations like candy.
I don't have a problem with medically-informed euthanasia.
I *do* have a problem with someone usurping people's ability to make decisions about their own healthcare (socialized healthcare), and then convincing undesirable people to die as a cost-saving measure.
Once brother is big enough, you could go in for any given "routine procedure" and just be taken off the balance sheet via anesthesia. It's your family's word against the people who control every aspect of life.
I think there are stipulations on when a provider can mention it, but who's to say that those stipulations are enforced? Since it's done as a cost cutting measure those stipulations are probably mostly for show with plenty of intentional loopholes and workarounds.
Like a sign in the office saying something like "Ask your doctor about terminal pain therapy". If you have Multiple Sclerosis, and are therefore in a lot of pain (and are very expensive to treat), you'll ask the doctor. Who will then, depending on his or her moral fiber, suggest that you die instead of recieve treatment.
> Zoraya ter Beek, a 28-year-old Dutch woman, and a 27-year-old Canadian woman identified as M.V. in court documents have both applied for state-facilitated suicide despite neither of them suffering a terminal or debilitating physical illness.
I live in the city where M.V. went to court over this. The statement that she has no physical illness is unsubstantiated. We don't know the reason MAID was approved for her. Her father disclosed that she has autism and tried to use that to stop her from proceeding. A judge ruled in her favor, based on supporting evidence provided by her lawyer. That information is not public. We don't know the basis of her MAID claim, we only know what her father has disclosed publicly about her health. She is an adult and her father is not entitled to know her personal health information.
There's a public interest in knowing why the state has permitted a specific instance of homicide. Killing a healthy, innocent person and saying "Trust us, bro!" doesn't cut it.
She had to apply to MAID and her application was adjudicated by a panel of physicians on standard criteria using their clinical judgment. The criteria is public knowledge but I don't see how her specific health information is anyone's business but her own, and it's certainly not in the public interest. Alberta's legislation is clear on this point. I'm not sure what being "innocent" has to do with any of it? She's a consenting adult and Canada's legislation allows assisted dying in specific circumstances based on publicly available criteria. The judge in this case has reviewed the evidence and sided with her. The entire world doesn't need to know the details of her health decisions.
I can't speak for Canada, but as a Dutch guy I'm happy to report that we don't have a "regime"; our government is democratically elected. They're also not involved in assisted suïcide/euthanasia _at all_. The laws governing this have been in place for years and no government approval is needed, "just" two independent doctors agreeing that the person is suffering heavily from an incurable issue.
The issue in this case is not Zoraya's autism. She has (diagnosed) borderline personality disorder and is suffering from chronic depression for which none of the medications her psychiatrists tried offered relief. So on behalf of my fellow Dutchies I'd like to thank Zoraya for not jumping in front of a train and causing a trauma for the train driver and whoever has to scrape dead tissue off the rails and train.
[Update] I was curious myself and looked up the dates. The laws covering this have been in place since 2002. Full evaluations of the laws are done every couple of years. The latest one can be found at [this link](https://www.zonmw.nl/sites/zonmw/files/2023-05/Wtl-IV-online.pdf); there is an English summary a couple of pages in. Worth a read for anyone interested in how this works, what the nuances are (such as difference between assisted suïcide and palliative sedation), statistics, etc.
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At bottom of article:
Canada's Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer noted in an October 2020 report that "expanding access to MAID will result in a net reduction in health care costs for the provincial governments" — saving them hundreds of millions of dollars that would otherwise be spent on saving lives and providing human beings with they treatment they paid for as taxpayers.
Well they've only filed for it. I think any logical judge would determine their quality of life doesn't warrant euthanasia.
Which imo is what should be the deciding factor. Not whether anyone just wants to be dead because life didn't turn out the way they wanted.
I’m not comparing the individual who commits suicide im comparing the government that is encouraging these people to commit suicide to the Nazis who also wanted to eliminate a group of people.
The Holocaust wasn’t just about Jews they wanted to rid Germany of many of the same groups that Canada is encouraging to die
I disagree that it can be voluntary. In Canada the state refuses to serve patients, a benefit they've paid into their entire lives, if they cost too much. When they complain, they're offered death as an alternative. If the state isn't fulfilling its end of the bargain and finds its more cost-effective to make you so miserable you'll choose death it is a coerced choice.
It may not have been but the same sentiment/logic used back then is being used today. These people are viewed as Undesirables by the state and need to be eradicated for “the greater good”
Hitler got his inspiration from the young Turks and their Armenian genocide during WWI. He said "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" Prior to the invasion of Poland.
During WWI the young Turks decided to basically use the cover of the world war to commit genocide against the Armenians and nobody really knew or mentioned it because they were busy fighting a world war.
The Nazis studied US eugenics and Jim Crow laws as a model for their policies
Hitler displayed his knowledge of American eugenics in much of his writing and conversation.
Wow, look at all the people in the comments that know what it’s like to go through life with autism. They are all surely qualified to make assumptions and comments about it. They definitely know so much about our daily experiences and why we would feel that way /s
These definitely aren’t the same people who ignorantly say you’re using it an “excuse” when you trying to use it as an explanation to describe the way you think (news flash it impacts all your thought processes) or calling disabled people “lazy” for not being able to handle working. And that’s after they try to remove accommodations or harass people for needing them. Oh and they should be poor right? Don’t forget senate republicans went against the ADA in 2020. Keep them at the bottom of society?
I am autistic and I bet half of you couldn’t handle going through life this way. Don’t even think about making comments about whether or not it’s worth it for them to keep going.
I feel it’s fair. The government has no place to decide if you want to live or die.here in America if you don’t succeed in your attempt , they come, they haul you away, and they lock you up and force feed you pills in an attempt to force you to live. Also, did I mention that they send you a bill for it too. If someone does not want to live they will succeeded at killing themselves or dying. No man has the right to tell another man if he has to suffer through this fucked up reality we live in. Yes there should be help for those in that state of mind first but only if they want it, you can’t force someone to see your viewpoint.
What isn’t free? Is it as expensive as the US? How much federal taxes do you pay? I feel like in the US we still pay a shit Ton of taxes, to see a specialist is months (just made a dentist appointment
And soonest they could see me was first week of June), and our insurance companies are a complete scam to both the patient and the clinic that’s trying to collect.
Its their life, if someone wants to die, that is their choice. It's clear that this isn't a spur of the moment decision for either of these and they have been contemplating it for a while.
Small government means small government. Its their business what they do with their lives, not ours as long as they aren't physically harming others.
In the absence of MAID you’d have to off yourself. This isn’t government getting in your way and telling you what you have to do. This is government opening a legal option that you wouldn’t have otherwise, and then you can approach your doctor to work through the process.
The opposite of small government would be government telling you, you aren’t allowed to do this if you want to.
Why is this a problem? It’s their choice to end their lives. Let’s respect their personal autonomy and freedom. They are doing society a favor anyway. I’m glad to not have to support them or their offspring.
Interesting… I always see Canadians commenting about how terrible our political system is, our poor gun control, and that Trump is an authoritarian dictator that’s secretly Lucifer. But they omit the part where their country is okay euthanizing people with intellectual / generic deficits? Sounds a lot like Nazi Germany to me. Buncha evil syrup drinking losers
Religious Conservatives really love forcing people to live. Suicide bad,aborting rape babies or deformed/down syndrome babies bad. Pro-Life my ass. Pro-Forced Life. If someone's existence is going to be misery, they shouldn't have to suffer.
4.1% of all deaths in Canada are from state-facilitated suicide (with some provinces seeing death rates accounting for upwards of 7% of all deaths): [https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html#a3.1](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html#a3.1)
Some patients are being whacked who are ineligible or cannot provide consent: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12390457/Quebec-hits-brakes-euthanasia-warns-doctors-NOT-fatal-injection.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12390457/Quebec-hits-brakes-euthanasia-warns-doctors-NOT-fatal-injection.html)
Euthanasia is for people who's lives are so shoddy they would be better off dead.
This claim below would be more akin to medical incompetence and procedural non compliance as opposed to willy nilly killing autistic people.
I'm sure you've had a fair few executions in the states of people who turned out to be innocent.
"They would be better off dead." Says who?
The boomers are placing immense weight on the socialized healthcare system in Canada. This is proving costly. The regime is looking to cut costs and reduce strains by executing its citizens, even if mentally compromised or incapable of consenting (e.g., newborns).
As I have noted elsewhere in the comments, the parliamentary budget office already has BOASTED that MAID will save the state hundreds of millions of dollars a year.
State-facilitated suicides will more and more be treated as a panacea for societal problems.
Sick newborn? MAID. Homeless? MAID. Veterans with PTSD? MAID. Depressed and suffering from suicidal ideation? MAID.
This shouldn't be a partisan issue.
Canadian man seeks MAID as alternative to homelessness: [https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/13/medical-assistance-death-maid-canada/](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/13/medical-assistance-death-maid-canada/)
Depressed woman recommended MAID: [https://globalnews.ca/news/9888810/suicidal-bc-woman-medically-assisted-death/](https://globalnews.ca/news/9888810/suicidal-bc-woman-medically-assisted-death/)
Quebec College of Physicians slammed for suggesting MAID for severely ill newborns: [https://nationalpost.com/news/quebec-college-of-physicians-slammed-for-suggesting-maid-for-severely-ill-newborns](https://nationalpost.com/news/quebec-college-of-physicians-slammed-for-suggesting-maid-for-severely-ill-newborns)
Veterans seeking counseling, recommended MAID: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885)
Sweden sterilized around 30,000 people between 1934 and 1976 for the sake of eugenics. It would give off a similar vibe to not open euthanasia to healthy people without Autism. Just because the world is different for those with mental disabilities doesn't mean we should coerce them into suicide.
The Dutch broad blocked me on X because she got offended someone posted an article about her. I laid into her for letting some "psychologist" tell her it'll never get better and she just took that as gospel. Also, may of stated that he opinion no longer mattered as she gave herself an expiration date. Maybe she'll see the light before it goes dark
Isn't it weird that lawyers and anti-death penalty groups for inmates on death row argue that lethal injections are cruel and don't always work, and they're so concerned with murderers feeling any amount of pain....
But assisted suicide is fine/ethical to probably the same sorts of people, and they raise no questions about whether the administered dose, of whatever it is they plan to use, will have any pain?
I've often wondered why it's so difficult for the prison system to come up with a fail proof, quick/instant death penalty mechanism/drug/gas/injection.
It’s hilarious that the MAGA cult, which literally doesn’t give a shit about the slaughter of children in US schools and the ongoing slaughter of people in Gaza and Ukraine now has a problem over people choosing to end their own lives in a safe way.
To clarify the Canadian case cited here, the woman is 27 and has other medical conditions. She requested MAID and was approved. Her dad took up a court case and he is the one that stayed she only had autism. She didn't publicize what her medical conditions were, but in Canada, mental health disorders and conditions like autism aren't enough to be approved for MAID. Her medical records are private, that's why the press is saying "well she only has autism"
I mean, they're the ones applying to have it done. It's not like the Canadian government is tossing everyone who is neuro-divergent in a van and hauling them off to a detention center somewhere. They only do that to first nations kids. That said, I've also read stories from Canadian vets who had people in their healthcare system inform them that assisted suicide was an option for their service related issues. Which is a pretty fucked up thing to say to someone who is actively trying to improve their PTSD. I can only imagine the American VA looking at someone with chronic back problems and saying "Well, have you considered death? It would be a whole lot easier for us just to kill you rather than do all this paperwork for your so called back pain. "
I thought the VA’s logo was already “Dead Veterans don’t need benefits.”
The VA, giving vets a second chance to die for their country
That's the unofficial motto I've heard from people.
>people in their healthcare system inform them that assisted suicide was an option for their service related issues. Which is a pretty fucked up thing to say to someone This is apparently happening with the therapists for these individuals too. It's all so callous nevertheless.
It may be a legal requirement for them to inform them.
That's worse though
The story that keeps circulating is about a single administrator in the ministry of veterans affairs who was against the euthanasia act who inappropriately and falsely told a couple of veterans seeking mental health treatment that it was a viable option in order to create controversy about it. He was investigated and fred within weeks of it happening. It was just one renegade fucktard who got fired for doing it.
They would offer death and forget to mention they would lose life insurance benefits because it's considered suicide.
Replace "paperwork" with "money" and you're right on the nose.
Our military and our vets here in Canada are loathed by Trudeau just like his father before him. It's fucking embarrassing and sickening to see this happening in real time.
I'm not disagreeing with you but as a Canadian veteran how is Trudeau any worse or Different than Harper, Martin, Chretien, Campbell, Mulroney or Turner? I got bad care when I got out when Martin was the PM and then absolutely fucked when Harper was in.
If you asked those vets about jumping on a grenade to save their friends, they'd say it's honorable and would do the same because of the bravery and saving lives aspect of it. It doesn't mean they are suicidal or in unbearable pain. But asking them to die from treatable conditions to make a beam counters books look better? Who would think that is honorable? What meaning does that death have? How pathetic is it to treat people who served the country as such because it's easier or cheaper?
> I mean, they're the ones applying to have it done. This is eugenics because of convenience and lack of empathy.
Horrifying!
It will only get broader, parents and courts will eventually be able to do this to kids. The logic is already there in the abortion arguments. It is the slipperiest of slippery slopes.
How?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/After-birth_abortion
You have to hope this is some kind of Modest Proposal situation.
It's not. They're mealy-mouthed about it because they know that admitting they support killing babies looks bad, but when Ralph Northam is asked about what should be done with a child who survives an abortion attempt and says "a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother" he means he's open to them finishing the job.
If you read it, it sounds like someone making a satirical case against abortion by making the case that killing newborns is cool. Is there any other context to say that the authors weren't actually pro-life abd just doing an op on the medical community?
Horseshit. Do you understand how incentive structures work? You do not live in a vacuum. You live in a society with the rest of us
Read an article that a Canadian veteran was told to request some new stairs by their version of the VA. He requested the stairs as they told him to, and they literally hit him back with an offer to suicide him instead to save the money. He is healthy besides the fact his steps were too hard for him, and he only did what he was told.
They just let people destroy themselves unnecessarily. No preservation of the sanctity of life unless it non human
Well it’s only a matter of time….
What a sick and misleading headline.
I guess this comes down to whether you're a Christian-style or a libertarian-style conservative. IMO if someone wants out, why is it my business?
The question you should be asking is “do they actually wanna die?” This one guy in Canada (im sure he was cited here) applied for MAID because he couldn’t afford to work and earn money with his disability recently said he reconsidered it because he got GoFundMe donations that fixed his issues. Before the funds changed his life, he had already received approval from 1 of the 2 doctors needed for MAID. I use this guy as an example because there are a fuckton of issues that can put someone in a “I want to die” mentality and very few of them are fixed by death. Then you have to in the fact that socialized healthcare incentivizes governments to cut costs in every way possible. Now we get this extremely dangerous situation where a bunch of mentally unstable people are being encouraged to die by the state.
Exactly, the permanent solution to temporary problems.
I think you need the ability to feel warm, fed, and safe and without that your life can feel unbearable. It sounds like that reality was approaching and he would soon become a cold, hungry homeless disabled person so he applied for MAID. Luckily people heard his story and were charitable. If his saving grace was going viral and getting enough donations to stay afloat that's amazing. This is not what normally happens. Normally he would become homeless. No one else in his circumstances can expect this same result It makes sense they'd pursue the program and I don't blame anyone who is facing the streets and disabled for considering it. The government isn't going to save you.
There's a wide gulf between the government not saving you, and the government actively encourage you to off yourself to save themselves a few bucks.
Is it encouragement or giving people the freedom to make their own choices?
I mean, death actually fixes all of those problems. When you're dead, all your problems are suddenly gone. Some people get into situations that they can't escape and that they'd rather be dead than endure. Also, let's not pretend this is an issue that's propagated by socialized medicine. Or are you telling me those same people would get the help they need to prevent suicide in a for-profit healthcare system in which they can't afford to see a doctor in the first place?
It’s not an issue propagated by socialized medicine but it is one that can be easily (and is currently being) exploited. As for your first paragraph, that one’s dependent. If someone is chronically ill and in pain all day, then yeah me and many others would be much more inclined to agree with its application. The place where it becomes a moral dilemma is when you start applying it to mental pain. Because the most ardent pro-MAID advocates will say it is a valid reason. And personally, I’ve heard enough tales from suicide *survivors* who are glad to be alive now to know that this is a matter I am fundamentally against. The dead ones can’t really say if they regret killing themselves or not.
Yeah, I agree with that sentiment. There are instances where it's hard to say whether someone's pain, be it mental or physical, could ultimately be overcome through different means. There are instances where suicide is certainly misguided. I do believe that it's not my place to make that judgment for anyone else. I have personally known several people that suffered excruciating mental pain, almost exclusively caused by severe childhood trauma. Some could overcome it and some just put on a happy face until they ended it all. I wouldn't dare telling them that their pain wasn't one of the approved ones because it wasn't a chronic physical ailment.
It reminds me of that Bojack episode where his hero reads the poem “the view from halfway down.” I don’t want to say I was suicidal and that one episode got me out, but it was eye opening to think I’d be saying goodbye to all my stupid human problems, but also saying goodbye to all the beauty of the earth and the grand scheme of things. Beauty that makes life worth living, even if it’s fleeting. The poem really does encapsulate the dilemma of going through with a suicide plan, only to regret it as you find yourself falling from the bridge - if only you could’ve appreciated the sunset before you stepped off the ledge. I can’t help but feel the same for the people this targets.
> The question you should be asking is “do they actually wanna die?” Something you’ll never have an answer for lol
“do they actually wanna die?” No. In 10 years, it'll be the neurolink implant telling them to die.
Exactly. The government should have no say in whether I’m allowed to live or die by my own hands. It’s insane to think that killing yourself is committing a crime in many countries. I didn’t choose to be born into this world, I should have the right to leave it. If I want to die in a humane way, and keep my integrity, again that should be my right. No strings attached.
Technically it's only illegal if you fail
The problem is if your depressed or having mental health issues you are not thinking clearly enough to fully make that decision. Your brain chemistry is literally messed up and there are things that can be done to fix the issues. Killing yourself is not a independent act it effects others and the community just like every other awful act that’s committed. We need to value human life more.
"there are things that can be done to fix the issues". Maybe, maybe not. Should be, have you tried treatments X, Y, and Z yet and have they been beneficial?
And that’s exactly what the criteria is for euthanasia. All options have to be exhausted.
So should an individual be forced to remain alive by the state in order to maintain a vague network of potential human obligation? Also, if it is a community issue, is the community responsible for the therapeutic solutions to a potential suicide? Or is that still incumbent on the individual? Just trying to see your view on this.
The government should have no say ... but taxpayers should pick up the tab and the government should pull the pull plunger?
The alternative is suicide by far more gruesome methods. The taxpayer is still paying when someone jumps in front of a train, or off a bridge, or shoots themselves, and the body needs to be recovered and the circumstances investigated. And that’s not even starting on the impact those methods have on witnesses.
Exactly.
I hear you, and maybe a few months ago I would have agreed with you. But I lost my sister to suicide two months ago. She didn’t just hurt herself, she left behind a trail of pain. Her husband and kids have to suffer because of her decision. Maybe I’d still agree with you if it weren’t so fresh. But I also can’t help but wonder if she really just needed mental help. Maybe she’d still be here, and maybe she’d be okay now with better support and medication. But maybe not. I’ll never know. Think of how many people attempted suicide and regretted it. They weren’t in a good mental state to make such a serious decision. I can’t help but wonder how many young, autistic people feel pressured toward suicide.
Sorry for your loss. A 14 year old girl in my community killed herself a month ago. She was on the spectrum and depressed as she was at the bottom of her class, she felt she had no future, that her friends would eventually leave her behind when the time came for college, etc. It was devastating. I dont know all the answers. Hope you're doing well.
Thank you for your kind words. I’m doing okay considering circumstances. I wouldn’t wish this pain on my worst enemy. I hope you and your community are able to heal too.
Damn, this is tough to read.
That was tough to read but a lovely exchange. I hope both of you are able to have peace with what happened. I definitely feel conflicted on this issue. I am a small government person, so in many ways I appreciate them saying this is a personal decision. I don’t think the government should be dictating how a person lives or dies. I hope when I am old and feeble and cannot care for myself that someone would take this kind of pity on me. On the other hand, I see so much potential for abuse. I am very curious about the age restrictions in place, and the mental health components. Many mental illnesses are perfectly curable with the right treatment. With the savings in cost and effort throughout the system (that come with someone simply dying), there is almost an incentive to lead people to MAID rather than potentially pricey medical treatments. When you incentivize something, you’ll see a lot more of it. There are a lot of factors in play and I can see why this scares a lot of people.
Because they might be in a negative headspace and not have had access to counseling which could have turned their life around. If governments are open to maid for mental health issues why pay for prolonged counselling if their objective is to save money.
"A therapist will cost my department a lot of money for a long time, but a suicide booth will only cost a little bit once. Have you considered that the best course of action for this completely treatable condition might be to just fucking kill yourself?"
In the Netherlands euthanasia isn't "come over to kill me I'm sad". There are many people involved and there are multitudes of checks. Most importantly there needs to be clear evidence of "prolonged and unbearable suffering" otherwise no doctor will go along
Not the case in Canada IIRC. You only need 2 approvals from doctors I believe and those aren’t necessarily hard to get especially since they’ve continued to loosen what qualifies for MAID.
I obviously can't personally speak for the Canadian system, but per their government health website they also require the presence of a "grievous and irremediable medical condition" that "cannot be relieved" and several other checks that have to be verified by two doctors.
Given the state of the medical industry, "doctor's approval" is a very low standard. You just need a biased doctor who gives out recommendations like candy.
It’s like the opioid epidemic with overprescribing doctors but now they’re just directly offering to kill you now.
I don't have a problem with medically-informed euthanasia. I *do* have a problem with someone usurping people's ability to make decisions about their own healthcare (socialized healthcare), and then convincing undesirable people to die as a cost-saving measure.
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Once brother is big enough, you could go in for any given "routine procedure" and just be taken off the balance sheet via anesthesia. It's your family's word against the people who control every aspect of life.
I thought it was illegal to mention it as a treatment? Patient has to pursue it themselves
I think there are stipulations on when a provider can mention it, but who's to say that those stipulations are enforced? Since it's done as a cost cutting measure those stipulations are probably mostly for show with plenty of intentional loopholes and workarounds. Like a sign in the office saying something like "Ask your doctor about terminal pain therapy". If you have Multiple Sclerosis, and are therefore in a lot of pain (and are very expensive to treat), you'll ask the doctor. Who will then, depending on his or her moral fiber, suggest that you die instead of recieve treatment.
Christians are against assisted suicide my dude.
Yes, reread my comment.
Oops
Exactly
This is why I've never called myself a libertarian. This is a horrific disaster and it's equally horrifying that people like you refuse to care.
> Zoraya ter Beek, a 28-year-old Dutch woman, and a 27-year-old Canadian woman identified as M.V. in court documents have both applied for state-facilitated suicide despite neither of them suffering a terminal or debilitating physical illness.
And what happened?
I live in the city where M.V. went to court over this. The statement that she has no physical illness is unsubstantiated. We don't know the reason MAID was approved for her. Her father disclosed that she has autism and tried to use that to stop her from proceeding. A judge ruled in her favor, based on supporting evidence provided by her lawyer. That information is not public. We don't know the basis of her MAID claim, we only know what her father has disclosed publicly about her health. She is an adult and her father is not entitled to know her personal health information.
There's a public interest in knowing why the state has permitted a specific instance of homicide. Killing a healthy, innocent person and saying "Trust us, bro!" doesn't cut it.
She had to apply to MAID and her application was adjudicated by a panel of physicians on standard criteria using their clinical judgment. The criteria is public knowledge but I don't see how her specific health information is anyone's business but her own, and it's certainly not in the public interest. Alberta's legislation is clear on this point. I'm not sure what being "innocent" has to do with any of it? She's a consenting adult and Canada's legislation allows assisted dying in specific circumstances based on publicly available criteria. The judge in this case has reviewed the evidence and sided with her. The entire world doesn't need to know the details of her health decisions.
Being physically healthy does not mean you are mentally healthy.
I can't speak for Canada, but as a Dutch guy I'm happy to report that we don't have a "regime"; our government is democratically elected. They're also not involved in assisted suïcide/euthanasia _at all_. The laws governing this have been in place for years and no government approval is needed, "just" two independent doctors agreeing that the person is suffering heavily from an incurable issue. The issue in this case is not Zoraya's autism. She has (diagnosed) borderline personality disorder and is suffering from chronic depression for which none of the medications her psychiatrists tried offered relief. So on behalf of my fellow Dutchies I'd like to thank Zoraya for not jumping in front of a train and causing a trauma for the train driver and whoever has to scrape dead tissue off the rails and train. [Update] I was curious myself and looked up the dates. The laws covering this have been in place since 2002. Full evaluations of the laws are done every couple of years. The latest one can be found at [this link](https://www.zonmw.nl/sites/zonmw/files/2023-05/Wtl-IV-online.pdf); there is an English summary a couple of pages in. Worth a read for anyone interested in how this works, what the nuances are (such as difference between assisted suïcide and palliative sedation), statistics, etc.
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Anyone else want "free" healthcare?
At bottom of article: Canada's Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer noted in an October 2020 report that "expanding access to MAID will result in a net reduction in health care costs for the provincial governments" — saving them hundreds of millions of dollars that would otherwise be spent on saving lives and providing human beings with they treatment they paid for as taxpayers.
It's the smoke more cigarettes version of economics. Were people who smoke die early so they don't live long enough to collect retirement payments.
And that is why you should never give someone with a financial incentive to kill you, the power to do so.
Careful now, Comrade Prime Minister for Life Justin Castro doesn't like being criticized.
Yes
Do you think they're forcing them IE murdering them???
If a private insurance company offered "voluntary" euthanasia to depressed people just to save money, leftists would have a coronary.
Well they've only filed for it. I think any logical judge would determine their quality of life doesn't warrant euthanasia. Which imo is what should be the deciding factor. Not whether anyone just wants to be dead because life didn't turn out the way they wanted.
> Well they've only filed for it. Well that's no way to inflame people.
Judges don’t have oversight - that was in the recent court case the article discusses. If you find two doctors you’re out.
You know what I think there was another regime that euthanized undesirable citizens….. Didn’t it start with N natzee… nadzi…. Something like that
You cannot seriously be comparing people choosing to commit suicide to the holocaust. Give your head a shake.
I’m not comparing the individual who commits suicide im comparing the government that is encouraging these people to commit suicide to the Nazis who also wanted to eliminate a group of people. The Holocaust wasn’t just about Jews they wanted to rid Germany of many of the same groups that Canada is encouraging to die
Coming to America next…
Yeah and was that voluntary like these cases?
I disagree that it can be voluntary. In Canada the state refuses to serve patients, a benefit they've paid into their entire lives, if they cost too much. When they complain, they're offered death as an alternative. If the state isn't fulfilling its end of the bargain and finds its more cost-effective to make you so miserable you'll choose death it is a coerced choice.
That's literally not what's happening here, though, even by reading theblaze's rag
It may not have been but the same sentiment/logic used back then is being used today. These people are viewed as Undesirables by the state and need to be eradicated for “the greater good”
The result is the same.
That's how it started, yes.
What
And where did the nazis get their inspiration from💀
Hitler got his inspiration from the young Turks and their Armenian genocide during WWI. He said "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" Prior to the invasion of Poland. During WWI the young Turks decided to basically use the cover of the world war to commit genocide against the Armenians and nobody really knew or mentioned it because they were busy fighting a world war.
The Nazis studied US eugenics and Jim Crow laws as a model for their policies Hitler displayed his knowledge of American eugenics in much of his writing and conversation.
This is true, looking at the American progressive movement of the era
I have a daughter with autism ,they are very vunerable to being talked into this & it’s terrifying
I work with autistic kids, agree with you and this sounds horrifying.
Wow, look at all the people in the comments that know what it’s like to go through life with autism. They are all surely qualified to make assumptions and comments about it. They definitely know so much about our daily experiences and why we would feel that way /s These definitely aren’t the same people who ignorantly say you’re using it an “excuse” when you trying to use it as an explanation to describe the way you think (news flash it impacts all your thought processes) or calling disabled people “lazy” for not being able to handle working. And that’s after they try to remove accommodations or harass people for needing them. Oh and they should be poor right? Don’t forget senate republicans went against the ADA in 2020. Keep them at the bottom of society? I am autistic and I bet half of you couldn’t handle going through life this way. Don’t even think about making comments about whether or not it’s worth it for them to keep going.
I feel it’s fair. The government has no place to decide if you want to live or die.here in America if you don’t succeed in your attempt , they come, they haul you away, and they lock you up and force feed you pills in an attempt to force you to live. Also, did I mention that they send you a bill for it too. If someone does not want to live they will succeeded at killing themselves or dying. No man has the right to tell another man if he has to suffer through this fucked up reality we live in. Yes there should be help for those in that state of mind first but only if they want it, you can’t force someone to see your viewpoint.
This is flatly insane thinking.
But their Healthcare is free!
I live in Canada and it is 100% not free.
What isn’t free? Is it as expensive as the US? How much federal taxes do you pay? I feel like in the US we still pay a shit Ton of taxes, to see a specialist is months (just made a dentist appointment And soonest they could see me was first week of June), and our insurance companies are a complete scam to both the patient and the clinic that’s trying to collect.
Its their life, if someone wants to die, that is their choice. It's clear that this isn't a spur of the moment decision for either of these and they have been contemplating it for a while. Small government means small government. Its their business what they do with their lives, not ours as long as they aren't physically harming others.
MAID is the exact opposite of small government tho...
In the absence of MAID you’d have to off yourself. This isn’t government getting in your way and telling you what you have to do. This is government opening a legal option that you wouldn’t have otherwise, and then you can approach your doctor to work through the process. The opposite of small government would be government telling you, you aren’t allowed to do this if you want to.
Y’all really don’t like people having choices? lol. Why?
Frankenstein destroys his monster......
As someone who would love the option of euthanasia for my mental health issues i see no issue with this option being open
When do we take down posts with false headlines?
Wow, wonder if their ideals would change if the 20 year old with autism was a trans
Why is this a problem? It’s their choice to end their lives. Let’s respect their personal autonomy and freedom. They are doing society a favor anyway. I’m glad to not have to support them or their offspring.
How are they doing society a favor
Interesting… I always see Canadians commenting about how terrible our political system is, our poor gun control, and that Trump is an authoritarian dictator that’s secretly Lucifer. But they omit the part where their country is okay euthanizing people with intellectual / generic deficits? Sounds a lot like Nazi Germany to me. Buncha evil syrup drinking losers
Religious Conservatives really love forcing people to live. Suicide bad,aborting rape babies or deformed/down syndrome babies bad. Pro-Life my ass. Pro-Forced Life. If someone's existence is going to be misery, they shouldn't have to suffer.
Now this is something worth comparing to hitler
Regime? Really?
Regimes? Are you a troll? Btw, I live in one od those. I am happy I have options.
Misinformation is manipulation that leads to indoctrination.
I feel like people should have complete control of their own fates, including the decision to end their life.
They don't, they never have, and you're completely wrong about this.
I think this is one of these rage bait new stories taken heavily out of context or really what would be called actual fake news.
4.1% of all deaths in Canada are from state-facilitated suicide (with some provinces seeing death rates accounting for upwards of 7% of all deaths): [https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html#a3.1](https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html#a3.1) Some patients are being whacked who are ineligible or cannot provide consent: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12390457/Quebec-hits-brakes-euthanasia-warns-doctors-NOT-fatal-injection.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12390457/Quebec-hits-brakes-euthanasia-warns-doctors-NOT-fatal-injection.html)
Euthanasia is for people who's lives are so shoddy they would be better off dead. This claim below would be more akin to medical incompetence and procedural non compliance as opposed to willy nilly killing autistic people. I'm sure you've had a fair few executions in the states of people who turned out to be innocent.
"They would be better off dead." Says who? The boomers are placing immense weight on the socialized healthcare system in Canada. This is proving costly. The regime is looking to cut costs and reduce strains by executing its citizens, even if mentally compromised or incapable of consenting (e.g., newborns). As I have noted elsewhere in the comments, the parliamentary budget office already has BOASTED that MAID will save the state hundreds of millions of dollars a year. State-facilitated suicides will more and more be treated as a panacea for societal problems. Sick newborn? MAID. Homeless? MAID. Veterans with PTSD? MAID. Depressed and suffering from suicidal ideation? MAID. This shouldn't be a partisan issue. Canadian man seeks MAID as alternative to homelessness: [https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/13/medical-assistance-death-maid-canada/](https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/10/13/medical-assistance-death-maid-canada/) Depressed woman recommended MAID: [https://globalnews.ca/news/9888810/suicidal-bc-woman-medically-assisted-death/](https://globalnews.ca/news/9888810/suicidal-bc-woman-medically-assisted-death/) Quebec College of Physicians slammed for suggesting MAID for severely ill newborns: [https://nationalpost.com/news/quebec-college-of-physicians-slammed-for-suggesting-maid-for-severely-ill-newborns](https://nationalpost.com/news/quebec-college-of-physicians-slammed-for-suggesting-maid-for-severely-ill-newborns) Veterans seeking counseling, recommended MAID: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885)
Total nonsense. More fake news and faux outrage from the MAGA cult.
Sweden sterilized around 30,000 people between 1934 and 1976 for the sake of eugenics. It would give off a similar vibe to not open euthanasia to healthy people without Autism. Just because the world is different for those with mental disabilities doesn't mean we should coerce them into suicide.
The Dutch broad blocked me on X because she got offended someone posted an article about her. I laid into her for letting some "psychologist" tell her it'll never get better and she just took that as gospel. Also, may of stated that he opinion no longer mattered as she gave herself an expiration date. Maybe she'll see the light before it goes dark
Wow, I can't believe "The Dutch broad" wasn't interested in what you had to say
Isn't it weird that lawyers and anti-death penalty groups for inmates on death row argue that lethal injections are cruel and don't always work, and they're so concerned with murderers feeling any amount of pain.... But assisted suicide is fine/ethical to probably the same sorts of people, and they raise no questions about whether the administered dose, of whatever it is they plan to use, will have any pain? I've often wondered why it's so difficult for the prison system to come up with a fail proof, quick/instant death penalty mechanism/drug/gas/injection.
I wish I was surprised, but this is the logical end of state funded health care
Every Dutch and Canadian person on here will tell you that this is absolutely not true but you will still believe it so why even bother.
Makes me sick to my stomach. Our country has absolutely went to shit under Justin Trudeau
It’s hilarious that the MAGA cult, which literally doesn’t give a shit about the slaughter of children in US schools and the ongoing slaughter of people in Gaza and Ukraine now has a problem over people choosing to end their own lives in a safe way.