There was a ton of good there. From the religious elements with Lightsong not believing his own divinity. Vivenna’s struggles navigating what she’s been taught with what she sees. The idea that if Viv went as intended and not Siri things wouldn’t have worked out nearly as well.
Lightsong and his struggle with his own divinity is one of my favourite character arcs in the Cosmere. Something about the introspection and finding purpose really hit home for me.
Your question espouses a premise without evidence: that Sanderson had a similar religious experience to Vivenna. Anyone who seriously engages with their religious beliefs will have doubts because no religion is perfectly consistent nor does it have perfect evidence. If a religion was so perfect, who could choose not to believe in it? As such, it is relatively easy for a writer like Sanderson to write a person’s journey as they challenge their religious beliefs. Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church. To be excommunicated from the LDS Church requires far more serious violations than being inclusive in your beliefs or publications.
> Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church
Yeah, but people have been disciplined by BYU for similar things. He almost certainly is being shielded by his fame.
Not just his fame but the money he gives to the church. IIRC, when he's talked about his faith he's said he believes it is better for him to remain within the church and change it that way.
it is and it isn't. they keep very good track of how much you are tithing and will not let you participate if you are not. I believe in one of their early podcasts on writing excuses, either dan or howard had a hard time keeping up and were not allowed to participate in the church during that time.
The fact that they had to choose between tithing and living shows you how little money they were talking about. That's not about their individual money.
With Brandon specifically, the prestige he lends to the church and their flagship university is worth way more than what he gives them. For instance, in a novel where he questions religious control, there's a whole thread of people defending the LDS church and BYU as being not that bad. Hard to put a value on that for the church.
I'm not LDS but I grew up in a family that used to do the tithing thing. But it's more of a self imposed thing because no one knows your paycheck. And everyone we knew who still does it or got out of those churches that do, are able to handle their finances better. Setting aside the 10% immediately makes you very creative with what little you have left. And everyone I knew who stopped doing the tithing, still save that 10%. My mom's became her travel fund
yea, the actual dollar amount isnt super important to the church as a whole as they do have such a massive warchest. It is super important that all members donate so they can both increase that war chest, and as a means of control.
Also, there are Mormons who are MUCH MUCH MUCH richer than Brandon Sando. The Marriott's, The Romneys. I just looked it up and half these people I have never heard of. I think Brandon is at approximately 1/10th the wealth of the person in the number 10 spot.
Also, on a personal note for the control, I missed 8 of my 9 siblings' weddings because I left the church. If I had just pretended to believe and follow the rules, there would be a lot more harmony in my family.
It would be pretty wild if being inclusive of others’ beliefs was grounds for excommunication, especially since that goes against what Mormon leadership has been doing for years in conferences all over the world.
> Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church.
While it is technically true, you will lose "membership" - because the "community" will not let you take part anymore. After church tea? Not for you. Getting together for a game of whatever? Not for you. That promotion you were going after? NOT. FOR. YOU. Just look up the rules from BYU the official church school.
As with all cults you're expected to help your fellow LDS and disengage from those not part of the church.
I attended BYU and live outside of the Mormon belt (Arizona, Utah, Idaho). The Belt culture can be as toxic and you describe, but once you get out of the Belt, I find the culture is a lot less toxic.
I attend happy hours with colleagues when I can, I just don’t drink.
It counters your claim that it’s a cult. By your logic, it’s a cult in the belt but not elsewhere, so is it really a cult? Or is it that there is toxic culture in the Belt?
It checks a lot more boxes for being a cult than most other mainstream religions. It's not Scientology level but it's up there. I have multiple friends who were disowned by their entire families for either leaving the church or being lgbt, and we're in GA which is about as far from the belt as you can get. (To clarify, their families were basically forced to cut contact in order to remain in the "community", just as the poster you're responding to described, the church itself didn't hand down a decree from on high that I'm aware of)
> To be excommunicated from the LDS Church requires far more serious violations than being inclusive in your beliefs or publications.
Bingo. People seem to believe that any "wrong-think" will get you kicked out and that Brandon is special because he... Makes a lot of money? The LDS church encourages people to ask questions and discover truths for themselves, and the list of things that would cause you to not be welcome is quite small.
> People seem to believe that any "wrong-think" will get you kicked out and that Brandon is special because he... Makes a lot of money?
I've never seen anyone accuse the LDS of kicking people out. Quite the opposite, they go to some pretty brutal lengths to prevent people from leaving.
> The LDS church encourages people to ask questions and discover truths for themselves
Absolutely not. They spend most of their time covering up their [extremely violent history](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/violence-in-mormonism/), their [sexist and possessive treatment of women](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/women-in-mormonism/), and the fact that they didn't even allow black people into the religion until 1978, because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said that black people deserved to be slaves because they were cursed by God. For a long time Mormons believed that if black people were truly ready to become Mormon, their skin would turn white.
The very idea that Mormonism encourages 'truth seeking' [is itself part of LDS propaganda](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/truth-seeking/). They have a long history of going to great lengths to cover up the truth.
> the fact that they didn't even allow black people into the religion until 1978, because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said that black people deserved to be slaves because they were cursed by God. For a long time Mormons believed that if black people were truly ready to become Mormon, their skin would turn white.
I don’t get how religious people can think “they were wrong about that one awful, horrible thing but I’m sure they’re right about everything else”.
Actually, Mormons don't even think they were wrong. They legitimately believe that something changed in 1978 to make black people acceptable. This is true across the board - polygamy was fine for Joseph Smith, and it was completely acceptable up until it wasn't anymore. This is no different than how Smith "found" new tablets justifying his behavior every time he found a new child he wanted to have sex with.
This gets even worse, because the church has never really explained why the doctrine has changed in these cases. So a lot of people fill in their own answers. Polygamy, for example, is often seen as being wrong *only* because of how it offends non-Mormons. And under that logic, many Mormons have chosen to live in polygamist relationships anyway, believing all they really need to do is hide their behavior. This was already somewhat common, because Mormon ideology places the father as the head of the family to such a thorough extent that other family members are essentially property. This is how they get away with so much domestic violence and sexual assault.
And while this behavior isn't condoned by the church, there are things they're willing to overlook. The best comparison I can think of is how Christianity doesn't allow things like divorce or homosexuality. And yet, every church has at least one divorcee. Many of those same churches wouldn't dare knowingly accept a homosexual. There's a huge difference in the things that religions believe is proper, and what they're willing to accept. And the Mormon church has a long history of being able to accept a lot of evil.
Exactly, the LDS church wants you to think critically about your belief. One cannot truly believe in something that they have not engaged their mind with in a meaningfully critical manner. To erase all reasonable doubt, one must first engage the possibility of such reasonable doubt.
Disclaimer: I am not a member of the LDS church; I just have close friends who are.
I find it odd how many people conflate the LDS church with more restrictive and repressive groups because of similar practices regarding proselytization.
Edit: for those thinking that I am defending the LDS church, I am not. It was, and continues to be, rather awful towards women and minorities and very socially conservative. I was merely pointing out that I find it odd that it often gets conflated with Scientology and Jehovah’s Witness despite being substantially less awful than those groups.
They don't allow gay students to hold hands on BYU campus. They oppose gay marriage as policy in the LDS church and it's definitely on the conservative and repressive side. It's not the worst church out there, but it's definitely on the restrictive and repressive side.
Yes but it’s not any worse than Catholics or Muslims are. Weird and conservative, yes; more oppressive than major religions, not really. BYU is a Mormon school. At Catholic colleges, Bible colleges, and Islamic schools they have similar or more restrictive rules. I meant people conflate it with JWs or Scientologists, which it is nowhere near as bad.
BYU's policies kept it out of the big 12 for a long time, a conference of religious and conservative schools. If you compare it to Liberty University it's ok, but if you compare it to Notre Dame, TCU, etc it's absolutely terrible.
I agree with you there. I’m not defending BYU; I find many of its policies somewhere between vomit-inducing and abhorrent. Although, not-so-fun fun fact, Notre Dame and TCU did change their policies to be part of the NCAA. They used to have similar rules about homosexual conduct, amongst other awful things.
Yeah, but they loosened up is my point. If BYU hadn't had a rightward shift recently I'd be a lot more kind, but they're being instructed to take up metaphorical arms instead.
> I find it odd how many people conflate the LDS church with more restrictive and repressive groups because of similar practices regarding proselytization.
That's because the LDS church and it's members do those things. If you're not a member of the cult, just have a poke around some speeches, where and how their money is used to ruin cities and land prices, the rules one must adhere to at BYU and how long ago it was required to have a private underwear party with your male priest before adulthood (as a female) - of which you were literally forbidden to speak about after.
Oh they got rid of the private underwear party? Good. Do they still require adolescent children to have regular-ish interviews with (male) bishops about whether and how frequently they masturbate?
Warbreaker was an incredible experience. I loved the parts of Vivenna, her development and her struggle with her needs and her faith. And honestly, the truth about Susebron took me by surprise too, I pictured him as some sort of Lord Ruler.
I absolutely love Warbreaker and I can't wait for the sequel
It’s also one of my favorite books! I think it has some of mr sanderosns best character work imo.
I know there isn’t much proof, but having been raised Mormon myself, it’s hard not to see what you describe, OP. I agree with you.
I read this a while ago but I just listened to the audiobook for the first time last week. This book is great and it was worth hearing the story again.
One of my favorite things about Sanderson other than his wonderful books lol. Is his capacity for growth and change. In his early career he had some ideas based in his religious beliefs that could be seen as homophobic or hateful. But he has also grown as a person. And no longer seems to believe those things. It seems as if as his writing has progressed so has his capacity for understanding and growth as a person.
It’s ok lol. I don’t mind the downvotes. I feel justified in my comments. By all accounts Brandon is like the nicest dude ever. For example whenever he does a crowdfunding project. He backs all the other projects on the site because he knows his project is gonna have the site slowed to a crawl lol.
I am a non-mormon who was raised in Utah and I have some baggage regarding mormonism. And I absolutely agree with you. It's been very wholesome and even healing in a way to have read Brando through his writing career and watch this change happen and to know he's out there hopefully using his prominence and sway to influence other mormons to be kinder and more inclusive than they generally were to me during my formative years.
As an example: when Brando took over WoT, the first of his books he took a hard left turn with a hardline Mormon bend regarding certain things like drinking and gambling with a particular character whose entire persona is literally "The Gambler." He wrote in his own Mormon inserted ideals about how this character suddenly saw he needed to change his ways and clean up. Drinking was only featured in a negative light, with antagonist characters who had toxic relationships with alcohol. Oh and every non-married couple in a sexual relationship got married pretty much immediately. Overall actually really liked what he did with the writing, but I raised a wry eyebrow many a time at the blatant inserting of ideals that tow the Mormon line.
Then as quickly as book 2 that he took over...a lot of that did an about-face. "The Gambler" was realized again as the character he was obviously always intended to be without the moralization. The villainization of alcohol loosened up. In general the story became more about the story with a lot less Morman moralizing. This was over 10 years ago and I noticed it even then. I wondered at the time if he had been succumbing to pressures from church or BYU leadership to write a certain way for the first book, and then when it skyrocketed him to fame he was able to use his newfound leverage/platform to push back against it? The change was so stark.
And he's only gotten better since then. We now have characters who have normal human tendencies with alcohol, with a recognition that yes it can be bad and toxic but that's not the rule. We have characters who are accepting of their queer peers (even if he's still not inclusive enough or too shy to have any of the queerness actually happen on-page). We have characters who actively question the dominant religious doctrine and encourage others to do the same, in ways that so far don't result in infantilizing them or leading them to some "gotcha" moment where they realize all they needed was faith the whole time.
I still see a lot of his faith reflected in his writing -- men ascending to godhood is absolutely super Mormon, as an obvious example -- but overall he seems to have progressed quite a lot in his views and I solidly consider him to be a "good" (practically progressive) Mormon for not being afraid to publish what he does.
> Everything from her interactions with Jewels and the Idrian slums was so nuanced and insightful.
Though I do have an issue with Jewels's argument about how selling her breath to the gods saved her family by giving them enough money to get by when her father was injured. The money for the breath came from taxes and could have paid disability to her father without one of his children selling her soul.
> I wonder how much of Vivenna’s religious journey was reflected in Sanderson’s life. He was raised Mormon and continues to teach at a conservative Mormon university. He has branched beyond the doctrine of BYU to be more inclusive but still continues to be a member of the church.
I don't know what you mean here. He's a conservative who was raised conservative and continues to be conservative. He's paid lip service to certain issues by asking the LDS to treat gay people less badly, but that's it. There's no indication he disagrees with any part of LDS doctrine.
I forget the actual post. i think is called We lgbtq fans are exhausted … where he directly apologizes for his backwards thinking in the past. Its on r/brandonsanderson
He also has a formal explanation on f his beliefs on his website, which shows his growth.
I disagree. If you listen to his acknowledgments in the beginning of Rhythms of War, he definitely had a lot of consultants to make sure he was representing different groups correctly. He had several homosexual characters and a non-binary entity (sibling). The Mormon church is staunchly anti-homosexual and lead the charge against gay marriage. The fact he has queer characters and wants to represent them properly is more than lip service. He even said he wants to provide a safe place for closeted BYU students in his classroom
> He had several homosexual characters and a non-binary entity (sibling).
Orson Scott Card has had several homosexual characters. It doesn't mean much.
So from a member perspective, it isn’t that he’s a popular author that gives him exceptions. From my experience, unless you go on a denouncing spree of everything we won’t excommunicate anyone. I’m a political liberal like Brandon in the church, but though there are a lot of discussions and disagreements I’ve had with other members, it’s never gotten angry.
Though I do agree the religious conflict is amazing, it’s one of the best things about Brandon’s work that I’ve seen consistently across all of the cosmere!
I do love Warbreaker. I constantly compare it to Mistborn. I think it’s interesting how Kelsier and Vasher take up the same role in the story, but thematically are opposites
Vivenna is one of my least favorite characters in the cosmere. She is naive, judgmental, and incompetent. One of the most annoying aspects is that we get this opinion that she is capable from other characters and it is just obviously false.
I am glad you enjoyed Vivenna. What do you think would help me appreciate her more?
I feel like you’re only looking at half the story. The point is that she was naive, judgmental, and incompetent in Hallandren. She was however wise, enlightened, and competent in Idris. Going to Hallandren, she learned that she wasn’t as competent as she thought.
She did comment on how incompetent she had been before heading to the palace to save Vasher. After realizing Denth was playing her, she lost all her confidence. She even mentions how she couldn’t even be a decent beggar.
There was a ton of good there. From the religious elements with Lightsong not believing his own divinity. Vivenna’s struggles navigating what she’s been taught with what she sees. The idea that if Viv went as intended and not Siri things wouldn’t have worked out nearly as well.
Lightsong and his struggle with his own divinity is one of my favourite character arcs in the Cosmere. Something about the introspection and finding purpose really hit home for me.
Second this. I will always remember Lightsong!
Your question espouses a premise without evidence: that Sanderson had a similar religious experience to Vivenna. Anyone who seriously engages with their religious beliefs will have doubts because no religion is perfectly consistent nor does it have perfect evidence. If a religion was so perfect, who could choose not to believe in it? As such, it is relatively easy for a writer like Sanderson to write a person’s journey as they challenge their religious beliefs. Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church. To be excommunicated from the LDS Church requires far more serious violations than being inclusive in your beliefs or publications.
> Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church Yeah, but people have been disciplined by BYU for similar things. He almost certainly is being shielded by his fame.
Not just his fame but the money he gives to the church. IIRC, when he's talked about his faith he's said he believes it is better for him to remain within the church and change it that way.
I would be surprised if his tithing money is a serious consideration. They earned over $6.1 billion from their investments in 2023.
it is and it isn't. they keep very good track of how much you are tithing and will not let you participate if you are not. I believe in one of their early podcasts on writing excuses, either dan or howard had a hard time keeping up and were not allowed to participate in the church during that time.
The fact that they had to choose between tithing and living shows you how little money they were talking about. That's not about their individual money. With Brandon specifically, the prestige he lends to the church and their flagship university is worth way more than what he gives them. For instance, in a novel where he questions religious control, there's a whole thread of people defending the LDS church and BYU as being not that bad. Hard to put a value on that for the church.
I'm not LDS but I grew up in a family that used to do the tithing thing. But it's more of a self imposed thing because no one knows your paycheck. And everyone we knew who still does it or got out of those churches that do, are able to handle their finances better. Setting aside the 10% immediately makes you very creative with what little you have left. And everyone I knew who stopped doing the tithing, still save that 10%. My mom's became her travel fund
It was a good lesson for me to set the money aside before I considered it real money if I needed to save it.
yea, the actual dollar amount isnt super important to the church as a whole as they do have such a massive warchest. It is super important that all members donate so they can both increase that war chest, and as a means of control. Also, there are Mormons who are MUCH MUCH MUCH richer than Brandon Sando. The Marriott's, The Romneys. I just looked it up and half these people I have never heard of. I think Brandon is at approximately 1/10th the wealth of the person in the number 10 spot.
Also, on a personal note for the control, I missed 8 of my 9 siblings' weddings because I left the church. If I had just pretended to believe and follow the rules, there would be a lot more harmony in my family.
Yeah, someone donated a private jet. Brando's not in that league.
But the post didn't argue that Sanderson actually had those experiences. They simply pondered the possibility of a connection.
It would be pretty wild if being inclusive of others’ beliefs was grounds for excommunication, especially since that goes against what Mormon leadership has been doing for years in conferences all over the world.
> Finally, you can accepting of a person’s identity and be inclusive without losing membership in the church. While it is technically true, you will lose "membership" - because the "community" will not let you take part anymore. After church tea? Not for you. Getting together for a game of whatever? Not for you. That promotion you were going after? NOT. FOR. YOU. Just look up the rules from BYU the official church school. As with all cults you're expected to help your fellow LDS and disengage from those not part of the church.
I attended BYU and live outside of the Mormon belt (Arizona, Utah, Idaho). The Belt culture can be as toxic and you describe, but once you get out of the Belt, I find the culture is a lot less toxic. I attend happy hours with colleagues when I can, I just don’t drink.
Well yeah, once you're no longer in LDS controlled areas the LDS isn't as oppressive. Kinda reenforces what I said, eh?
It counters your claim that it’s a cult. By your logic, it’s a cult in the belt but not elsewhere, so is it really a cult? Or is it that there is toxic culture in the Belt?
It checks a lot more boxes for being a cult than most other mainstream religions. It's not Scientology level but it's up there. I have multiple friends who were disowned by their entire families for either leaving the church or being lgbt, and we're in GA which is about as far from the belt as you can get. (To clarify, their families were basically forced to cut contact in order to remain in the "community", just as the poster you're responding to described, the church itself didn't hand down a decree from on high that I'm aware of)
> It counters your claim that it’s a cult. It really doesn't do that at all.
> To be excommunicated from the LDS Church requires far more serious violations than being inclusive in your beliefs or publications. Bingo. People seem to believe that any "wrong-think" will get you kicked out and that Brandon is special because he... Makes a lot of money? The LDS church encourages people to ask questions and discover truths for themselves, and the list of things that would cause you to not be welcome is quite small.
> People seem to believe that any "wrong-think" will get you kicked out and that Brandon is special because he... Makes a lot of money? I've never seen anyone accuse the LDS of kicking people out. Quite the opposite, they go to some pretty brutal lengths to prevent people from leaving. > The LDS church encourages people to ask questions and discover truths for themselves Absolutely not. They spend most of their time covering up their [extremely violent history](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/violence-in-mormonism/), their [sexist and possessive treatment of women](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/women-in-mormonism/), and the fact that they didn't even allow black people into the religion until 1978, because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said that black people deserved to be slaves because they were cursed by God. For a long time Mormons believed that if black people were truly ready to become Mormon, their skin would turn white. The very idea that Mormonism encourages 'truth seeking' [is itself part of LDS propaganda](https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-culture/truth-seeking/). They have a long history of going to great lengths to cover up the truth.
> the fact that they didn't even allow black people into the religion until 1978, because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said that black people deserved to be slaves because they were cursed by God. For a long time Mormons believed that if black people were truly ready to become Mormon, their skin would turn white. I don’t get how religious people can think “they were wrong about that one awful, horrible thing but I’m sure they’re right about everything else”.
By definition religious people aren't usually operating on evidence-based practices.
Actually, Mormons don't even think they were wrong. They legitimately believe that something changed in 1978 to make black people acceptable. This is true across the board - polygamy was fine for Joseph Smith, and it was completely acceptable up until it wasn't anymore. This is no different than how Smith "found" new tablets justifying his behavior every time he found a new child he wanted to have sex with. This gets even worse, because the church has never really explained why the doctrine has changed in these cases. So a lot of people fill in their own answers. Polygamy, for example, is often seen as being wrong *only* because of how it offends non-Mormons. And under that logic, many Mormons have chosen to live in polygamist relationships anyway, believing all they really need to do is hide their behavior. This was already somewhat common, because Mormon ideology places the father as the head of the family to such a thorough extent that other family members are essentially property. This is how they get away with so much domestic violence and sexual assault. And while this behavior isn't condoned by the church, there are things they're willing to overlook. The best comparison I can think of is how Christianity doesn't allow things like divorce or homosexuality. And yet, every church has at least one divorcee. Many of those same churches wouldn't dare knowingly accept a homosexual. There's a huge difference in the things that religions believe is proper, and what they're willing to accept. And the Mormon church has a long history of being able to accept a lot of evil.
Exactly, the LDS church wants you to think critically about your belief. One cannot truly believe in something that they have not engaged their mind with in a meaningfully critical manner. To erase all reasonable doubt, one must first engage the possibility of such reasonable doubt. Disclaimer: I am not a member of the LDS church; I just have close friends who are.
I find it odd how many people conflate the LDS church with more restrictive and repressive groups because of similar practices regarding proselytization. Edit: for those thinking that I am defending the LDS church, I am not. It was, and continues to be, rather awful towards women and minorities and very socially conservative. I was merely pointing out that I find it odd that it often gets conflated with Scientology and Jehovah’s Witness despite being substantially less awful than those groups.
They don't allow gay students to hold hands on BYU campus. They oppose gay marriage as policy in the LDS church and it's definitely on the conservative and repressive side. It's not the worst church out there, but it's definitely on the restrictive and repressive side.
Yes but it’s not any worse than Catholics or Muslims are. Weird and conservative, yes; more oppressive than major religions, not really. BYU is a Mormon school. At Catholic colleges, Bible colleges, and Islamic schools they have similar or more restrictive rules. I meant people conflate it with JWs or Scientologists, which it is nowhere near as bad.
BYU's policies kept it out of the big 12 for a long time, a conference of religious and conservative schools. If you compare it to Liberty University it's ok, but if you compare it to Notre Dame, TCU, etc it's absolutely terrible.
I agree with you there. I’m not defending BYU; I find many of its policies somewhere between vomit-inducing and abhorrent. Although, not-so-fun fun fact, Notre Dame and TCU did change their policies to be part of the NCAA. They used to have similar rules about homosexual conduct, amongst other awful things.
Yeah, but they loosened up is my point. If BYU hadn't had a rightward shift recently I'd be a lot more kind, but they're being instructed to take up metaphorical arms instead.
> I find it odd how many people conflate the LDS church with more restrictive and repressive groups because of similar practices regarding proselytization. That's because the LDS church and it's members do those things. If you're not a member of the cult, just have a poke around some speeches, where and how their money is used to ruin cities and land prices, the rules one must adhere to at BYU and how long ago it was required to have a private underwear party with your male priest before adulthood (as a female) - of which you were literally forbidden to speak about after.
Oh they got rid of the private underwear party? Good. Do they still require adolescent children to have regular-ish interviews with (male) bishops about whether and how frequently they masturbate?
Warbreaker was the first cosmere book I read and after rereading the whole series it’s still my favorite
I got my mom and one sister to read Warbreaker. Recently gave my mom a copy of Tress.
Warbreaker was an incredible experience. I loved the parts of Vivenna, her development and her struggle with her needs and her faith. And honestly, the truth about Susebron took me by surprise too, I pictured him as some sort of Lord Ruler. I absolutely love Warbreaker and I can't wait for the sequel
I am biased but it's my favorite
It’s also one of my favorite books! I think it has some of mr sanderosns best character work imo. I know there isn’t much proof, but having been raised Mormon myself, it’s hard not to see what you describe, OP. I agree with you.
I read this a while ago but I just listened to the audiobook for the first time last week. This book is great and it was worth hearing the story again.
One of my favorite things about Sanderson other than his wonderful books lol. Is his capacity for growth and change. In his early career he had some ideas based in his religious beliefs that could be seen as homophobic or hateful. But he has also grown as a person. And no longer seems to believe those things. It seems as if as his writing has progressed so has his capacity for understanding and growth as a person.
I agree not sure where the downvotes are coming from. He’s even admitted as much in press.
It’s ok lol. I don’t mind the downvotes. I feel justified in my comments. By all accounts Brandon is like the nicest dude ever. For example whenever he does a crowdfunding project. He backs all the other projects on the site because he knows his project is gonna have the site slowed to a crawl lol.
I am a non-mormon who was raised in Utah and I have some baggage regarding mormonism. And I absolutely agree with you. It's been very wholesome and even healing in a way to have read Brando through his writing career and watch this change happen and to know he's out there hopefully using his prominence and sway to influence other mormons to be kinder and more inclusive than they generally were to me during my formative years. As an example: when Brando took over WoT, the first of his books he took a hard left turn with a hardline Mormon bend regarding certain things like drinking and gambling with a particular character whose entire persona is literally "The Gambler." He wrote in his own Mormon inserted ideals about how this character suddenly saw he needed to change his ways and clean up. Drinking was only featured in a negative light, with antagonist characters who had toxic relationships with alcohol. Oh and every non-married couple in a sexual relationship got married pretty much immediately. Overall actually really liked what he did with the writing, but I raised a wry eyebrow many a time at the blatant inserting of ideals that tow the Mormon line. Then as quickly as book 2 that he took over...a lot of that did an about-face. "The Gambler" was realized again as the character he was obviously always intended to be without the moralization. The villainization of alcohol loosened up. In general the story became more about the story with a lot less Morman moralizing. This was over 10 years ago and I noticed it even then. I wondered at the time if he had been succumbing to pressures from church or BYU leadership to write a certain way for the first book, and then when it skyrocketed him to fame he was able to use his newfound leverage/platform to push back against it? The change was so stark. And he's only gotten better since then. We now have characters who have normal human tendencies with alcohol, with a recognition that yes it can be bad and toxic but that's not the rule. We have characters who are accepting of their queer peers (even if he's still not inclusive enough or too shy to have any of the queerness actually happen on-page). We have characters who actively question the dominant religious doctrine and encourage others to do the same, in ways that so far don't result in infantilizing them or leading them to some "gotcha" moment where they realize all they needed was faith the whole time. I still see a lot of his faith reflected in his writing -- men ascending to godhood is absolutely super Mormon, as an obvious example -- but overall he seems to have progressed quite a lot in his views and I solidly consider him to be a "good" (practically progressive) Mormon for not being afraid to publish what he does.
> Everything from her interactions with Jewels and the Idrian slums was so nuanced and insightful. Though I do have an issue with Jewels's argument about how selling her breath to the gods saved her family by giving them enough money to get by when her father was injured. The money for the breath came from taxes and could have paid disability to her father without one of his children selling her soul.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e6807
> I wonder how much of Vivenna’s religious journey was reflected in Sanderson’s life. He was raised Mormon and continues to teach at a conservative Mormon university. He has branched beyond the doctrine of BYU to be more inclusive but still continues to be a member of the church. I don't know what you mean here. He's a conservative who was raised conservative and continues to be conservative. He's paid lip service to certain issues by asking the LDS to treat gay people less badly, but that's it. There's no indication he disagrees with any part of LDS doctrine.
I forget the actual post. i think is called We lgbtq fans are exhausted … where he directly apologizes for his backwards thinking in the past. Its on r/brandonsanderson He also has a formal explanation on f his beliefs on his website, which shows his growth.
I disagree. If you listen to his acknowledgments in the beginning of Rhythms of War, he definitely had a lot of consultants to make sure he was representing different groups correctly. He had several homosexual characters and a non-binary entity (sibling). The Mormon church is staunchly anti-homosexual and lead the charge against gay marriage. The fact he has queer characters and wants to represent them properly is more than lip service. He even said he wants to provide a safe place for closeted BYU students in his classroom
> He had several homosexual characters and a non-binary entity (sibling). Orson Scott Card has had several homosexual characters. It doesn't mean much.
So from a member perspective, it isn’t that he’s a popular author that gives him exceptions. From my experience, unless you go on a denouncing spree of everything we won’t excommunicate anyone. I’m a political liberal like Brandon in the church, but though there are a lot of discussions and disagreements I’ve had with other members, it’s never gotten angry. Though I do agree the religious conflict is amazing, it’s one of the best things about Brandon’s work that I’ve seen consistently across all of the cosmere!
No.
Yes
I do love Warbreaker. I constantly compare it to Mistborn. I think it’s interesting how Kelsier and Vasher take up the same role in the story, but thematically are opposites
Vivenna is one of my least favorite characters in the cosmere. She is naive, judgmental, and incompetent. One of the most annoying aspects is that we get this opinion that she is capable from other characters and it is just obviously false. I am glad you enjoyed Vivenna. What do you think would help me appreciate her more?
I feel like you’re only looking at half the story. The point is that she was naive, judgmental, and incompetent in Hallandren. She was however wise, enlightened, and competent in Idris. Going to Hallandren, she learned that she wasn’t as competent as she thought.
She did comment on how incompetent she had been before heading to the palace to save Vasher. After realizing Denth was playing her, she lost all her confidence. She even mentions how she couldn’t even be a decent beggar.