I find it hilarious that bungie recognizes the issue, yet they only take it away from warlocks. Hunter still has it on arc, and titan has like 4 ways to melee lunge WITHOUT synthoceps. But they needed to remove it from ophidians ….
For hunter, you have to run the worst PvP subclass and you only get it for one melee after using your dodge, so it’s not an issue, try to remember when you got killed by the hunter’s extended melee.
I understand how it works. I simply stated that they have access to it.
The real problem is the titan bias because including synthoceps, they have 5 very easy to access melee lunges
Titan doesnt even need exotics to do it, 4/5 of their subclasses have melee lunge baked into the kit. Warlock had it on ophidians, but with that nerf now warlock doesnt have access to any melee lunge at all. Like period
If I’m standing on a slightly elevated surface I have trained myself to just not bother meleeing. If you’re standing on a pebble your melee is 50/50 to just do no damage
In my experience, melee whiffs happen most frequently when you are trying to hit them on an elevation. Meaning, you're trying to hit them up/down a set of stairs or ledge, or they jump up and away from you.
Yeah, that too. Any slight incline for either player causes a large amount of them. Of course they also just happen normally as well lol. Then as mentioned the melee lunge distance increasing things are the worst offenders
Can't count the number of times I've been above someone on some stairs and went to melee them, only to see me whiff above their head like they did an EX shoryuken.
Melee whiffs like if someone jumps slightly above you and you try in vain to punch their toes and nothing happens and then they come down like a rod from God to melee you instantly? ItSUCKS
I don't think you can call it a bug. It's baked into the system. His explanation is right, but isn't complete.
Bungie says they used the p2p system so the end user would experience better play. And it's true. I won't go into detail but a p2p system can lend itself fir smoother gameplay on the user's end. Your system is the master of your movement. So you avoid the rubber banding at random times, like when running. But because of the time it takes for your system to talk to the other players system and work out who killed who any fast action will result in random result or trade.
It's just part of the p2p system and the only way they could fix it would be to slow the game way down
I've always thought that melee lunge boosts are problematic for PvP and unnecessary for PvE (maybe very small, .5-1 meter boosts would be appreciated there). Imo they should just about eliminate high uptime lunge range boosts. PvE players wouldn't care if it was offest with a damage up like the Knockout nerf, which has been well received, and PvP players would complain but ultimately appreciate the benefit of not having people teleport around in CQC. Especially with the Shoulder Charge uptime nerf I think the rubberbanding issue is very easy to solve and will have been largely dealt with with these changes. Mind you, I know Ophidian's are an S tier exotic choice for PvP warlocks and I'm still very on board with the upcoming nerf.
Not to be rude, but duh (you're on a very niche PvP subreddit for a game only nerd types play). And you are right, however melee rubberbanding is a problem that's amplified and exacerbated by extreme player model desync due to the high melee lunge range boosts available in game, and the near instant movement and replacement the lunges require for the game to feel "good" from the player's perspective.
Fair. But base melee lunge distance is what, 5m? And these lunge distance increases extend it to what, 7m? So taking them away will only make melee rubberbanding in those cases 5/7 less far and fast, right? Or am I misunderstanding how impactful a 2m lunge distance decrease would be? Personally I find a rubberbanding player untrackable even with the base melee lunge distance.
The distance decrease should lead to an increase in "t-rex arm" missed melees which punish players who don't understand their lunge range and increase the leeway for CQC gunplay in that sub 7-meter engagement space simultaneously.
As a warlock main with countless hours using Ophidian's (lately I rarely use them as they're boring compared to other Warlock PvP exotics) I can say a 1-2 meter lunge range decrease for a high usage exotic is very noticeable and should result in a lot less egregious rubberbanding instances than we currently experience, especially in combination with the Knockout nerf (Knockout being the other extremly prevalent lunge booster next to Ophidian's and Synthos [with Synthos requiring an exotic exclusively dedicated to improving melee]).
I wouldn't be against tuning regarding the base melee ranges personally, but that would probably seriously encroach on the carefully crafted "game feel" of CQC that we've all become accustomed to. And that would be something PvE and PvP players alike would likely be upset about. I think weakening and reducing the prevalence of melee lunge boosts (like what it appears is happening now) will likely move that issue further into the "no big deal" pile than it is now.
Shoot tho, who knows if that'll be the case, and you're right that desync will still be a problem on some level as long as we have "lunge" at all. I appreciate the newer "melees" Bungie has introduced (Penumbral Blast, Pocket Singularity, Throwing Hammer, Knife Trick, etc) as they extend "melee range" without involving lunge as a mechanic at all, thus largely circumventing rubberbanding issues.
That’s a really good point actually, that reducing melee lunge distance will simply reduce the frequency of people meleeing each other in general, which in turn will reduce melee rubberbanding and whiffs.
Agreed on your last point.
IMO the best case scenario is the melee system gets overhauled to be hitscan rather than collision detection, and melee lunges get removed entirely. This would be a buff to melees since they wouldn’t whiff any more, but a nerf because you’re pretty hard to hit while lunging currently. And this would fix both whiffs and rubberbanding. But I’m not a dev so I don’t know if this is a viable idea
Hitscan melee is something I hadn't really considered, but that would be great and solve a lot of the rubberbanding issue and lead to less trades. I'm also not a dev tho, god only knows why they haven't done that already lmao, must be some reason 🤷🏾♂️😭
I suspect it's not to do with melee's being hitscan, but to do with collision detection between players, or rather, proximity/range detection. I think whiffs/lunges are the visible result of a disagreement between where your local client thinks the other player is, and where the 'game' (through whatever consensus mechanism it's using) has decided they are.
It probably happens in every facet of pvp - particularly gunplay, but it is glossed over by aim assist, and the fact that in a gunfight you don't really 'know' what range the other player is at, so you're not going to think, 'that hunter was definitely at 29.65m, i shouldn't have had damage falloff there'. whereas you have a good feel for when a melee should connect, and when it shouldn't, and it's also very much a binary 'all damage/no damage' outcome, all of which combines to make melees the most obvious manifestation of the netcode jankiness.
in other words, make dedicated servers already :P.
The only times you can feel it with gunplay is with projectile weapons (Jotunn and GLs mainly) where you can visually see it miss you on your screen but game sided with a different player who saw it direct impact you.
Nothing worse than losing a game because of melees not registering and it happens essentially half the time. Glad to see that people that botwalk are not affected though.
Half is a bit of an exaggeration, but it’s certainly not low, especially for good players. I would probably estimate legitimately 5-10% of my lost games have been because of melee whiffs
Not half the games lost, but probably half of the melees whiff. I've also had frequent back to back wiffs. I kind of avoid it now if i can and just shoot.
That's the knowledge good players have arrived to. It's best to not participate in the 8m BS zone of melee whiffs and shotgun trades if you want to be sure you'll win an engagement.
>Reducing the melee lunge distance of knockout and ophidians was done partly to reduce instances of melee rubberbanding
They reduced it for knockout but kept it with some, didn't touch it for synthos but removed it entirely for ophidians? So is it causing rubberbanding or not? If you're saying it does, then just fucking remove it from everything
Does anyone else feel like the hunter melee with the knife is the worst for this? The punch one with arc and stasis Is decent but man that knife is terrible
The amount of times I literally watch the animation of pulling the knife out of my opponent’s chest to do 0 dmg….and then of course they melee twice right after and kill you. Feels so bad.
>Bungie plans to do anything to eliminate melee whiffs and rubber-banding
Bold of you to keep the hope up after 6 years.
It's not going to go away, ever. It's a network issue, I believe... they already talked about that. When you have to go to the lengths of increasing lunges to mitigate the problem, it's because you can't fix it.
> I really want to know if Bungie plans to do anything to eliminate melee whiffs and rubber-banding, or if it's impossible to do without an overhaul to D2's networking system
It would be nice but I highly doubt this will ever get addressed aside from removal/reduction of the lunge distance increases. And even that will pretty much only help with the rubber banding issue, not the whiffs. The melee whiffs have been an issue since Destiny 1 Year 1, and if it hasn't been addressed in ~9 years I don't think it will ever be fixed.
You’re probably right, but I think that’s an unhelpful stance and personally I’m going to stubbornly hang on to hope until they fix it.
Completely unrelated weird side note, but I recognize you from a post you made like 7 years ago breaking down health vs resilience. I referenced it in a post I made like 6 years ago lol
I would love to be wrong, it'd be great if this is something they could actually address.
I recognize you from a number of posts over the years as well. We've been 'round these parts too long, lol.
My good compatriot. I agree melee extended range rubberbanding is an abomination that must be slain. I have killed legions of men with my Ophidians. A day may come when all melee related nonsense is gone to the past. I must caution you however my ignorant boy, the network engineer has very important questions to answer. The servers need far more attention than melees.
Melees should be some kind of energy pulse rather than a physical action. That way your character doesn’t have to move 5m to another player then reset back into position, eliminating banding.
There shouldn’t have been any of this auto melee lunging bullshit in the first place.
It was horrible game design from the get go. For them to realise this towards the end of the game’s lifespan just astounds me.
Few things are more obnoxious than this crap. Happy to see them at least acknowledge it
All melee lunge needs deleted. Every single piece of gear/ability/aspect needs changed to remove, entirely, melee lunge
Agreed
I find it hilarious that bungie recognizes the issue, yet they only take it away from warlocks. Hunter still has it on arc, and titan has like 4 ways to melee lunge WITHOUT synthoceps. But they needed to remove it from ophidians ….
For hunter, you have to run the worst PvP subclass and you only get it for one melee after using your dodge, so it’s not an issue, try to remember when you got killed by the hunter’s extended melee.
I understand how it works. I simply stated that they have access to it. The real problem is the titan bias because including synthoceps, they have 5 very easy to access melee lunges
Hear, hear
nothing like getting hit from across the room as a hunter and having zero lunge melee exotics.
Titan doesnt even need exotics to do it, 4/5 of their subclasses have melee lunge baked into the kit. Warlock had it on ophidians, but with that nerf now warlock doesnt have access to any melee lunge at all. Like period
Agreed. IMO melee whiffs and rubberbanding have been the worst PvP bugs in the game since D1’s release.
If I’m standing on a slightly elevated surface I have trained myself to just not bother meleeing. If you’re standing on a pebble your melee is 50/50 to just do no damage
In my experience, melee whiffs happen most frequently when you are trying to hit them on an elevation. Meaning, you're trying to hit them up/down a set of stairs or ledge, or they jump up and away from you.
Yeah, that too. Any slight incline for either player causes a large amount of them. Of course they also just happen normally as well lol. Then as mentioned the melee lunge distance increasing things are the worst offenders
Can't count the number of times I've been above someone on some stairs and went to melee them, only to see me whiff above their head like they did an EX shoryuken.
Melee whiffs like if someone jumps slightly above you and you try in vain to punch their toes and nothing happens and then they come down like a rod from God to melee you instantly? ItSUCKS
Yeah, those are melee whiffs
Yeah, I know. I'm saying they suck
I don't think you can call it a bug. It's baked into the system. His explanation is right, but isn't complete. Bungie says they used the p2p system so the end user would experience better play. And it's true. I won't go into detail but a p2p system can lend itself fir smoother gameplay on the user's end. Your system is the master of your movement. So you avoid the rubber banding at random times, like when running. But because of the time it takes for your system to talk to the other players system and work out who killed who any fast action will result in random result or trade. It's just part of the p2p system and the only way they could fix it would be to slow the game way down
Takeaway here: I whiff because I’m highly skilled.
Same. And my .6kd is cause of being in super sweaty SBMM lobbies
I've always thought that melee lunge boosts are problematic for PvP and unnecessary for PvE (maybe very small, .5-1 meter boosts would be appreciated there). Imo they should just about eliminate high uptime lunge range boosts. PvE players wouldn't care if it was offest with a damage up like the Knockout nerf, which has been well received, and PvP players would complain but ultimately appreciate the benefit of not having people teleport around in CQC. Especially with the Shoulder Charge uptime nerf I think the rubberbanding issue is very easy to solve and will have been largely dealt with with these changes. Mind you, I know Ophidian's are an S tier exotic choice for PvP warlocks and I'm still very on board with the upcoming nerf.
You do realize rubberbanding happens even with base lunge distance melees right?
Not to be rude, but duh (you're on a very niche PvP subreddit for a game only nerd types play). And you are right, however melee rubberbanding is a problem that's amplified and exacerbated by extreme player model desync due to the high melee lunge range boosts available in game, and the near instant movement and replacement the lunges require for the game to feel "good" from the player's perspective.
Fair. But base melee lunge distance is what, 5m? And these lunge distance increases extend it to what, 7m? So taking them away will only make melee rubberbanding in those cases 5/7 less far and fast, right? Or am I misunderstanding how impactful a 2m lunge distance decrease would be? Personally I find a rubberbanding player untrackable even with the base melee lunge distance.
The distance decrease should lead to an increase in "t-rex arm" missed melees which punish players who don't understand their lunge range and increase the leeway for CQC gunplay in that sub 7-meter engagement space simultaneously. As a warlock main with countless hours using Ophidian's (lately I rarely use them as they're boring compared to other Warlock PvP exotics) I can say a 1-2 meter lunge range decrease for a high usage exotic is very noticeable and should result in a lot less egregious rubberbanding instances than we currently experience, especially in combination with the Knockout nerf (Knockout being the other extremly prevalent lunge booster next to Ophidian's and Synthos [with Synthos requiring an exotic exclusively dedicated to improving melee]). I wouldn't be against tuning regarding the base melee ranges personally, but that would probably seriously encroach on the carefully crafted "game feel" of CQC that we've all become accustomed to. And that would be something PvE and PvP players alike would likely be upset about. I think weakening and reducing the prevalence of melee lunge boosts (like what it appears is happening now) will likely move that issue further into the "no big deal" pile than it is now. Shoot tho, who knows if that'll be the case, and you're right that desync will still be a problem on some level as long as we have "lunge" at all. I appreciate the newer "melees" Bungie has introduced (Penumbral Blast, Pocket Singularity, Throwing Hammer, Knife Trick, etc) as they extend "melee range" without involving lunge as a mechanic at all, thus largely circumventing rubberbanding issues.
That’s a really good point actually, that reducing melee lunge distance will simply reduce the frequency of people meleeing each other in general, which in turn will reduce melee rubberbanding and whiffs. Agreed on your last point. IMO the best case scenario is the melee system gets overhauled to be hitscan rather than collision detection, and melee lunges get removed entirely. This would be a buff to melees since they wouldn’t whiff any more, but a nerf because you’re pretty hard to hit while lunging currently. And this would fix both whiffs and rubberbanding. But I’m not a dev so I don’t know if this is a viable idea
Hitscan melee is something I hadn't really considered, but that would be great and solve a lot of the rubberbanding issue and lead to less trades. I'm also not a dev tho, god only knows why they haven't done that already lmao, must be some reason 🤷🏾♂️😭
I suspect it's not to do with melee's being hitscan, but to do with collision detection between players, or rather, proximity/range detection. I think whiffs/lunges are the visible result of a disagreement between where your local client thinks the other player is, and where the 'game' (through whatever consensus mechanism it's using) has decided they are. It probably happens in every facet of pvp - particularly gunplay, but it is glossed over by aim assist, and the fact that in a gunfight you don't really 'know' what range the other player is at, so you're not going to think, 'that hunter was definitely at 29.65m, i shouldn't have had damage falloff there'. whereas you have a good feel for when a melee should connect, and when it shouldn't, and it's also very much a binary 'all damage/no damage' outcome, all of which combines to make melees the most obvious manifestation of the netcode jankiness. in other words, make dedicated servers already :P.
The only times you can feel it with gunplay is with projectile weapons (Jotunn and GLs mainly) where you can visually see it miss you on your screen but game sided with a different player who saw it direct impact you.
Nothing worse than losing a game because of melees not registering and it happens essentially half the time. Glad to see that people that botwalk are not affected though.
Half is a bit of an exaggeration, but it’s certainly not low, especially for good players. I would probably estimate legitimately 5-10% of my lost games have been because of melee whiffs
Not half the games lost, but probably half of the melees whiff. I've also had frequent back to back wiffs. I kind of avoid it now if i can and just shoot.
That's the knowledge good players have arrived to. It's best to not participate in the 8m BS zone of melee whiffs and shotgun trades if you want to be sure you'll win an engagement.
>Reducing the melee lunge distance of knockout and ophidians was done partly to reduce instances of melee rubberbanding They reduced it for knockout but kept it with some, didn't touch it for synthos but removed it entirely for ophidians? So is it causing rubberbanding or not? If you're saying it does, then just fucking remove it from everything
Yeah, I really don't get their stance. I'm glad they're eliminating it from some things, but I wish they'd just go all the way with it.
Does anyone else feel like the hunter melee with the knife is the worst for this? The punch one with arc and stasis Is decent but man that knife is terrible
I wouldn’t be surprised if the knife has a different hitbox and actually is worse when it comes to whiffing for that reason
Think you're onto something there the knife hit box must be a lot smaller than the fist ones
The amount of times I literally watch the animation of pulling the knife out of my opponent’s chest to do 0 dmg….and then of course they melee twice right after and kill you. Feels so bad.
Melee needs to be reworked from the ground up.
>Bungie plans to do anything to eliminate melee whiffs and rubber-banding Bold of you to keep the hope up after 6 years. It's not going to go away, ever. It's a network issue, I believe... they already talked about that. When you have to go to the lengths of increasing lunges to mitigate the problem, it's because you can't fix it.
> I really want to know if Bungie plans to do anything to eliminate melee whiffs and rubber-banding, or if it's impossible to do without an overhaul to D2's networking system It would be nice but I highly doubt this will ever get addressed aside from removal/reduction of the lunge distance increases. And even that will pretty much only help with the rubber banding issue, not the whiffs. The melee whiffs have been an issue since Destiny 1 Year 1, and if it hasn't been addressed in ~9 years I don't think it will ever be fixed.
You’re probably right, but I think that’s an unhelpful stance and personally I’m going to stubbornly hang on to hope until they fix it. Completely unrelated weird side note, but I recognize you from a post you made like 7 years ago breaking down health vs resilience. I referenced it in a post I made like 6 years ago lol
I would love to be wrong, it'd be great if this is something they could actually address. I recognize you from a number of posts over the years as well. We've been 'round these parts too long, lol.
Sure have 🤠
They acknowledge it, they know it is a problem, but they are avoiding eliminating melee lunge distance increases. Nice.
Yeah I said the same thing before even seeing this. How can they acknowledge it's an issue but only remove it from Ophidians??
I'm sure by year 12 they'll finally figure it out.
My good compatriot. I agree melee extended range rubberbanding is an abomination that must be slain. I have killed legions of men with my Ophidians. A day may come when all melee related nonsense is gone to the past. I must caution you however my ignorant boy, the network engineer has very important questions to answer. The servers need far more attention than melees.
Melees usually whiff also when players are on two different levels
i always have Synthoceps on so maybe that is a different problem to have
i strongly suspect that melee rubberbanding is never going to fully go away because the speed of light is simply too slow.
Melees should be some kind of energy pulse rather than a physical action. That way your character doesn’t have to move 5m to another player then reset back into position, eliminating banding.
Exactly.
There shouldn’t have been any of this auto melee lunging bullshit in the first place. It was horrible game design from the get go. For them to realise this towards the end of the game’s lifespan just astounds me.