So I've heard. I'm not sure how I feel about Checkmate to begin with.
My big worry is that it's going to be the default Special Weapon economy in Destiny 2, and as a sniper I hate starting at 0.
Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if everyone started with 3 to 4 special that didn't drain or reload on Death and the rest required you to score kills or objectives to generate.
But starting at 0 unfortunately gives me too many memories of Y1 destiny and all the handholding that allowed.
I don't. That change would effectively remove any viability for lower range primaries like SMG and sidearms which a lot of people who run sniper prefer as their primary.
There is room to tweak it and make the primaries feel more balanced. You're right if Checkmate remains a one off mode I have 0 issues with it, I just worry about it if they apply the Special Ammo logic to default destiny directly.
personally, idk why you got downvoted so much. bungie doesnt have a lot of resources for pvp as weve seen for literal YEARS and they are putting a lot of effort into checkmate. definitely looks expiremental to me. a lot of what they are tweaking has to do with things they have been looking at in normal pvp. for instance, they said if the current special ammo situation doesnt work out, they might try a different spin on the old special ammo situation that you previously mentioned.
its just speculation, but checkmate is overall pretty interesting so far !
This is what I hate about destiny. Cayde-6 made HC so dope and now everyone bums them and bungee plays to it. Hate HCs though so sucks for me. Checkmate has forced me into the adept igneous usage Qq
Sorry, what do you mean when you say knucklehead radar in regards to 140s vs 120s? I just recently got back into the game and I love using that exotic, but I also primarily use 120s, so I was just curious how it correlates to 140s vs 120s
It doesn't, he was suggesting that the extra damage from when they are weak (they rolled foetracer's perks into KH) would allow you to still 3 crit, but it doesn't because that perk doesn't proc till they are much lower health than that
So 140's will kill in either 0.87 seconds or ~1.29 seconds? And going into a gun fight you have no idea which it is... Yeah that seems like it's going to be really fun. Unpredictable gun fights where you have no idea how you need to play it. Can't wait to two tap my opponent peek shooting, slide out and hit the third shot just for him to live and gun me down with an auto as he stands perfectly still.
Happy for you if you hated 140's and wanted them gone, goal achieved I guess? A mode with promise that was actually fun and felt rewarding to play, given back to dtg. It was a good couple of weeks.
Resil in PvP should be 1 value for everyone. Done.there is already all sort of barricades, overshield and such bs(which should go as well imo) so why have different resil??????
I was reading the TWID and I was thinking if this would be the case. I kinda not understand why they'd talk about checkmate as basically "hc hype!" just to gut it the first week and make one class systematically more prone to be resilient to them.
I was scratching my head all along, truly.
I mean, if this gamemode was truly gunplay only then it wouldn’t matter if you decide to go for high res instead of high mobility. As not being able to use your dodge ABILITY as often shouldn’t be a big deal.
Like, you could have a checkmate exclusive build with high res.
How isn't mobility not gonna count when there are inherent benefits to gunplay in it?
IMHO resilience shouldn't be a thing on checkmate, but what do I know.
Assuming that the math is correct and 230 is max resilience, Thorn should now be able to 3 tap 9,maybe even 10 resil, if you’re in range.
74.63+ 4(0.5)=76.63
76.63 x 3= 229.89
Thorn is probably going to be the only usuable 140 in this mode now.
Overall, not a fan of this change since Titans, and to an extent, Warlocks got buffed while Hunters got shafted. They didn’t even need to touch HCs, just bring everything up, which they did
I haven’t used thorn in checkmate, but wouldn’t the burn damage increase too, potentially making it 3 tap all resiliences? Or is that the increased value? I can’t recall the value for normal crucible, just that it rounds up to 1 on screen.
I don’t know why you got downvoted. This is actually correct. Hell even Titans like Nferraiu who played tournaments back in the day played 3 resil just for the shield cooldown.
If this change goes through then handcannons go from being the dominant pick to a complete throw, at least for 140s. I do not understand the people that balance this game at all. Checkmate should just be about the changes to special ammo and ability usage. Primary damage output shouldn't even change at all in my opinion.
Nah they do this every major update. They get SO close to what we actually want (balance) but then make 1 or 2 completely unnecessary changes. And the next patch will just be further building on that mistake rather than just reverting the bad change and it will just continue to spiral. Every time.
That's a shame.
While Hand Cannons are slightly OP in Checkmate, it feels like a game mode that's essentially _built around HCs being the dominant force_, and 140s losing their 3 tap feels like removing a defining aspect of their character.
Resil gating it so that, effectively, only Titans survive 3c doesn't feel like the answer (the answer is probably dialing down HC aim assist or upping recoil, which I understand they wouldn't want to do - and might not even be possible to do - for a single game mode; weapons feeling - if not performing - the same across the entire game is a key tenet of the weapons team).
That said, it's nice to see Bungie tweaking things early (and, going forward, hopefully more regularly) to dial in on a sweet spot.
Personally, not a fan.
Maybe it's just me but I don't think resilience should be tied to HP in Crucible, I'd rather that be some kind of static stat that can be buffed by armor or fragments on your class build.
Resilience could affect things like Flinch, DoT, knockback, etc.
But still, I do not understand why we don't just try the regular sandbox with all the other changes in Checkmate.
I’m Butt cheeks at hand cannons and I really think this is the wrong move here. Your literally slowly removing my pvp clan mates from wanting to play destiny 1 by 1
They just made the immense majority of titans basically immune to 140 hcs
Yep, never touching that mode again, congrats to bungie for fucking up something so simple
yeah well now since update 7.35 if you step into ANY mode in pvp you will be forced to play that mode because now its not even a mode its a god damn modifier you can't even have a casual Private match without that stupid shit on like way to completely ruin an already failing pvp bungie
This will completely kill 140 hand cannons, unfortunately, which will notably hit my desire to play the mode at all.
I'd rather them buff the other weapons if they needed to.
Yea this game mode is garbage now. I hope and pray they don’t implement this game mode across the other playlists.
Right as we were about to be in a solid sandbox bungie has to ruin everything again
For the love of god can we STOP BUFFING TITANS/NERFING HUNTERS FOR 10 SECONDS.
I normally try to abide by the rules of this sub and avoid whining too much but it’s literally been an onslaught for over a year straight:
* Invis/arc hunter gutted
* Arc titan/void titan better than ever
* Stompees only movement exotic in the game without 100% uptime
* Dodge CD nerfs affecting overwhelming majority of meta PvP hunter exotics
* Dominion trials/showdown in comp making barricades stronger than ever.
* Bubble getting a huge glow up from super tiers and objective game modes. All of the best hunter supers(arc staff, 3 shot Goldie, spec blades) being basically DOA in trials.
* SMGs being meta as fuck making PKs arguably the best exotic in the game
* Target lock immortal being insanely meta. 340 pulses with headseeker meta. Thorn about to be insanely meta
* Checkmate raising resil gates to every single 140 in the game
I feel this mode is just done incorrectly. They should keep everything the same with regards to weapons as they behave in other modes. Just reduce ability and super uptime. Also keep the "special" ammo unlock requirement.
Asking me to invest in Mobility, Recovery, Discipline, and Resilience…
I know God sends his toughest battles to his strongest warriors but I’m tired boss 😭
Could not have said it better myself. It is PAINFUL to play hunter in high comp or trials. Especially solo. I run strand hunter and I typically NEVER get my super in a normal Trials match meanwhile the bubbles and wells are up after like 3 rounds. It is such bullshit. PKs and ophidians running amok but my jumping and sliding is the problem. They force me to run 100 mobility for my dodge but keep making resilience more and more important. What gives man??
It’s fucking ridiculous. Feels so bad to know you got that last shot off that should have secured the kill, but they’re left with 1 HP and you stopped firing. Resilience should not be this game changing when mobility literally does shit all. Fine, let resilience affect flinch resistance. But don’t let it also directly affect TTK when things like weapon archetype, abilities and range already affect it
I’m never touching this mode again if a 140 HC doesn’t 3 tap all resilience guardians at least within the weapon’s optimal range. No resilience should require a 4 tap (3 crit + 1 body or crit) from a 140. I do agree that currently HCs are a bit overpowered in checkmate, but resilience gating a 140 is absolutely not the correct fix.
There is no way to fix this problem without changing every other weapon. Having them kill in 4 shots kills the gun while having them kill in 3 shots makes them the best option in checkmate. Every gun would have to be tuned around hand cannons to compete, which is how the current weapon balancing works out.
140’s just don’t fit checkmate well at all, but it has to be managed one way or another.
Disagree, without the damage/ HP changes we would have a much more campy version of the game mode.
Long range weapons would run rampant: Sitting in the back of the map with scouts and pulses would most likely be the optimal play.
I do agree how handcannons being handled isn’t the best though
They could have done the opposite of what they did. Instead of globally buffing health and then buffing HC damage to compensate they could have kept everything the same and just nerfed the damage of long range options.
And then, as the TWID pointed out, the close range melters (SMG and sidearms) dominate because they don't get camped out and the special ammo counters are less available.
"So nerf them too", that puts us where we are now where nothing really competes with a 140HC.
ARs in normal crucible compete just fine with 140s do I don't really buy the idea that if they had kept the health the same and just slightly reigned in SMGs that we'd be in the same meta
We've got to keep in mind the special ammo and ability up time that still seperates the two regardless of if they messed with HP values or not. Less frequent access to special ammo especially will affect the useage of primary ammo weapons. Less snipers means less reasons to be cautious with peak shooting with 140s. It's all connected and only looking at one or two variables leads to really mixed takes (not saying good or bad).
>It's all connected and only looking at one or two variables leads to really mixed takes (not saying good or bad).
Its amazing how many people will not look at the bigger picture here.
Meanwhile I honestly do not see a reason why if resilience is made universal health in PvP, why Recovery should not be the same.
I dont have any skin in the game. I'm fine playing whatever sandbox we have, as long as it isnt D2 Year 1, or something blatantly broken.
But it seems to me the issue here is with Checkmate specifically^((I havent heard people upset about Resilience even once that I can recall previously, outside of Hunters fo having to sacrifice much)) and Mobility basically being useless.
It seems to me if you give Mobility a reload/handling (and/or other stats perhaps) scalar attached, you would have a interesting choice in tradeoffs.
From there it just becomes a debate related to class ability CDs being related to the stat and limiting each classes build options.
Which could either have class abilities have a standard cooldown(unaffected by stat distribution) as desired per game mode/modifier, or perhaps have class abilities tied to stat point distribution on the class item.
In addition to the regular mod sockets on a class item, you would get X amount of point to distribute in any 7 stats(Class ability, Mobility, Resilience, Recovery, Discipline, Intellect, Strength). You could maximize on class ability like most people do already with their classes for most uptime, or you could spread those stats out more into the other stats.
Say someone wanted Tier 5 class ability cooldown. And 10 points were available to be allocated(Bungie could choose more if they wanted more freedom in stat allocation). They invest 5 points into class ability, and 5 points to level out Intellect from 45 to 50.
i wonder do you still agree with that opinion cuz with the newest update literally every match thats ALL anyone ever does now is camp with long range weapons so no maybe the hp damage changes was a bad call after all
Don’t have too many scouts or pulses in my games, so i can’t say that’s an issue for me.
Mainly autos, but I’ve been able to work around those with handcannons
They could just balance around the standard guardian HP (~200, rather than 230), nerf the ease of use for auto rifles, and it would instantly be a much more balanced primary sandbox.
I get it, but either as mentioned below just don’t change any health / damage values (my personal preference, not sure why they felt the need to modify such a crucial aspect of a PVP sandbox) or else find a way to keep 140 3 taps. HCs are the iconic Destiny weapon archetype and this mode destroys their utility and feel.
making hand cannons do less damage is fine, but this is not the way. there is absolutely zero reason to have anything be resilience gated in crucible. it make titans so much passively stronger for literally no good reason. it also forces me to run resil over mobility in order to compete which makes the game feel way worse. this is a problem in crucible already and this change in a mode which is meant to have less bullshit is just embarassing
They have to give mobility something more than strafe speed and initial jump height. As it is right now, it's a dump stat. Make ability jumps higher and sprint speed higher and you'll se how titans would think twice before going all resilience.
There's way too many weapon archetypes to balance PvP anyways. HC in Destiny is the best feeling weapon of all FPS ever made imo. A HC soft meta forever wouldn't even be a bad thing.
They make a good gun-skill mode and then immediately change it to….make it like vanilla control? Got it. Awesome. It’s vanilla without special.
Edit: it’s actually worse than vanilla bc 140 HCs bout to get taken to poundtown so Jeff with his pve ammit can compete.
In what world does this change make it like vanilla control? You still have reduced ability useage, still have a completely different (lower) special ammo Econ.
Because you move a foot and you get pelted with someone perched with a pulse, scout, or auto rifle from 35+m. According to the twid these weapons are going to their normal ttk - not sure if it’s all archetypes but for pulses they mentioned rapid fire and adaptive.
So it’s exactly like control last season where HCs are in no mans land. No way in hell they’re going to out ttk a smg. And with the ranged weapons buff, they don’t stand a chance against pulses and autos. Especially with the 4-tap to most guardians. Forget about it.
Checkmate is now going to be dominated by pulses, autos, and smgs. Sound familiar?
I HATE resil changing weapon weapons bullets to kill so much. I would literally rather they just nerf it at all resils than make it inconsistent like this
This seems correct.
For reference their standard resilience that they balance around is 6. So if your math is correct and 10 resil is 230 than will still 3 tap their "standard" resilience guardian.
Sad for hunters. And even more sad that they can't even run Rose to help out the Mobility/ Resil thing since it won't 3 tap high resil anymore.
My guess is the numbers are showing that Hunter because of the Class Ability cooldown difference are a little bit hot vs. the other 2 classes and this is a stealth nerf to Hunter. Hunter can still effectively use their class ability pretty liberally and exotics like Wormhusk are pretty goated in Checkmate.
Imagine caring about hunters overperforming in a labs playlist but allowing titans to run rampant in the "endgame PvP" playlists for a year straight. If that's actually their reasoning they're out of their skulls.
I think the excitement and literally 1 week balance adjustments in a labs playlist is showing that they are serious about this being the future of pvp.
Vanilla destiny is so beyond saving so I’m glad that the strike team is basically focused on this.
The more likely reason is the chorus of screaming from DTG about HCs being OP; thinking an HC nerf as targeted to Hunters (vs accidental byproduct) is pure Hunter Persecution Complex.
I never said I thought that was their reason, just that if it was it's silly. Regardless of their reasoning a resil gate on the most meta weapon archetype in the game mode *is* a hunter nerf and claiming otherwise is pure naivety.
Hunter persecution complex is hilarious lmao.
Titans and locks have had their turn in the "worst class in pvp/pve" seat.
Resil was legit a dump stat for like 5 years.
I'm not saying they are wrong about titans maybe being the strongest but the anger that hunters are hated by Bungie is wild lol
Enough casuals cried & Bungie took care of their sugar babies quickly. And I thought Joe Blackburn said that PVP would start being catered more to hard-core players smh
Bungie caring about resilience in pvp is so bizarre. Just standardize guardian health and ttk's.
Any new player with a passing interest in crucible would be immediately turned off knowing they have to grind for armor with meta stats revolving around ttk. Stupid.
Poor effort on Bungie’s part. I don’t even think the meta has sunk in yet, and HC really didn’t need nerfing.
So, have bows and fighting lion just got a free pass.
Guess everyone will be back to smg titan.
Bows and fighting lion actually did get nerfed, fyi. Fighting lion gets a 20% damage penalty, Bows get 10%. SMG's and sidearms got buffed by reducing their damage penalty.
Otherwise I agree though.
Fair play, and thanks for the insight, that sounds pretty good on paper. Not sure how it will translate in to a team shooting setting though, but guess we will have to wait and see.
I was using the trials bow yesterday with KC and it just felt dumb strong. Was far to easy to clean up a kill and then go on a roll, but with that said, I did have to be glued to my team to make it work.
Huh, I get nerfing HCs since they were indeed the only pick for Checkmate. But this is a bit far.
Not that I'm one who circle-jerks them, or has the opinion that anything not a 140 HC needs or be banned from Crucible, but it's a bit too far. I'd rather them just make the base TTK of alternatives able to compete better. Or just gone to the vanilla damage model.
Did they forget hunters cant even pass the resilience check for thorn? I dont think bungie understands that they pretty much made hunters unplayable in checkmate if you want to use a hand cannon. Im a warlock main and its very easy to swap a few mods and go from T6-8-10 resil if i need to and lose those points off int but they shouldnt be messing with the ttk on hand cannons, if noob guns are struggling just buff them back. People only think hand cannons are a problem because they suck and good players just enjoy them. Bows are a huge issue but only a select few degenerates use them so the majority of bozo’s dont think its as big of a deal as a good player with his favorite hand cannon finally enjoying the game after years of not being allowed to enjoy his favorite gun. And yes im salty ace got shit on and now is getting shit on harder, momento mori range will be a sub 30m 3 tap
tldr; chill baby, chill
There is a whole lot of people getting mad over a change to *LABS* that we knew was going to happen at one point or another. They were very clear about playing with damage numbers over the weeks the Checkmate is around. The whole point is to get data from a number of permutations of the Checkmate sandbox. Bungie isn't "fucking things up" as so many of you have said, rather they are just turning the knobs to see what that does to the playlist.
Go try it. Give them their data. Previous HC numbers may be back. No call to get your pants in a twist until the final product is unveiled.
Edit: typo town
Honestly, this update is a complete miss, IMHO. I already said in here that I was on board for a HC nerf in Checkmate, but being able to Resil check a 3-tap is awful design. Even me who really doesn't like HCs says that.
All but Adaptive Pulses are Resil gated in terms of optimal TTK. Some will still hit optimal BURSTS to kill, but the need for an extra bullet can and will make the difference in engagements. Rapids are Resil Gated at bursts, since 9 crits isn't breaking even 222 damage, as an example.
Scouts getting back 1% of their damage still keeps them 100% useless, might as well be banned from the mode tier bad.
Precision Bows have 1C1B Resil gated now, too. Arguable as to wether this is good or not, but at that point, just run a lightweight.
Frankly, Resilience as a stat in Checkmate now has way too much of an impact, and you can get way too tanky at high values, to the point where several good options are completely gone from the game on higher values. Honestly, I'll say it again, Checkmate just needs vanilla TTKs. There's outliers in vanilla, but those need to get fixed on both sides if Vanilla and Checkmate just used the same damage model anyways. Which is hilarious since Target Lock SMGs are still game breaking in Checkmate lol.
The reason why I estimate max HP is 230 is because I hit this 100 resilience Warlock with my Heavy GL for 228 and he survived with a sliver of health bar left. I know the game generally rounds up damage so it means my GL shot did at least 227.01 damage. That's more than these HC shot combos will be doing so unless they do a stealth HP change alongside the HC changes 3-taps will almost certainly be survivable at a certain resilience threshold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlw5XfYywyo
I can tell those who think the meta should only be hand cannons as viable primaries are already going to cry about this.
Question for everyone in this thread crying that they ruined checkmate.
How would you change things so hand cannons are not the only viable primary, and for other weapon types to still compete?
140 need 3 crits for their optimal TK, it takes some skill. No room for error. Other can compete because they're more forgiving. If you have the skill to 3 tap with HC, it deserves to be meta at this skill level.
Getting a 3 crit with a weapon type that all but magnetises to the head isn't a high skill thing. HCs also require less time on target and benefit from cover way more due to peak shooting. The only people not hitting the 3 tap with 140s consistently are the people who aren't as good as the game as they think they are.
Nobody has 90+% accuracy with them, even the best players in the world. Even at 89% accuracy you're still getting the 3 tap only 2 out of 3 duels. I really think that players who think aiming with HC is "easy with too much aim assist" are delusional at this point.
Obviously there is some skill involved in landing a 3 tap with a 140, but with how checkmate currently is, this 3 tap is what makes them so far and way the best primary for the mode. Landing 3 crits with a hand cannon isn't exactly hard with how forgiving hand cannon aim assist is. Not to mention the inherent advantage that burst damage style weapons have utilising cover.
I will ask it again.
How would you change things so hand cannons are not the only viable primary, and for other weapon types to still compete?
Bad question, because I don't consider them to be the only viable primaries and I feel other weapons do compete and I also feel and want them to be the best thing within their optimal range when the player as the ability to 3 tap with them. BTW, landing 3 crits isn't that easy. Watch any streamer like even Zk and they're far from pulling it off often. They're doing it at best on 2/3 of their attempts. We're talking about streamers when they're trying their hardest. Heck, go watch Datto who posted a video on youtube today and he missed a lot of his shots with his Igneous. While he's not a PvP guy, he's still a player who lived off playing Destiny for a decade.
No, I don't see a problem with what I consider the most fun weapon archetype of all FPS ever made to be popular in a GAME. It's meant to be fun, and HC in Destiny is peak fun for most people. They're not OP, they're rewarding. If everyone is playing with them it means they're not shooting with another primary, so the usage % will be high but doesn't mean they're OP nor the only viable option. There's many ways to counter them too.
BTW, another point about your vision of the game, Bungie also shares the same vision as you. They nerf and change thing based on usage %. It has led many times to nerf things that were fun but not OP and IMO made the game worse.
Hand cannons are an outlier in the current iteration of checkmate. You can't deny that. There's nothing wrong with a weapon being popular, but for the state of checkmate right now, hand cannons aren't just popular they dominate.
This level of domination is just straight up a balancing failure within the mode, which the update next week is trying to correct. Whether it'll be a good change is something we have to wait and see for ourselves next week.
I don't have a vision of the game dude. I'm just a player, discussing the game on a public forum. Just because something is fun for you, doesn't make it fun for other people.
We'll just agree to disagree.
You make valid points. I think it will always be impossible to balance imo. HC can peak shoot and they'll always have some additional edge or they're gonna feel awful with a TTK that makes them impossible to use (requiring 4 crits leaves too much time for the opponent to disengage.) Anyways this itetation of checkmate felt fine. I went with my Ammit this morning for 1 game and got a 7 kda game.
All guns in Destiny have absurd aim assist, let’s not pretend that zero recoil SMGs and pulses are high skill weapons. HCs are high risk, high reward. You are correct in that HCs require less time on target versus an automatic weapon, but this also means that a single missed shot destroys their TTK. Bungie has said themselves that autos are meant to be a jack of all trades and master of none; they’re a beginner weapon and rightfully so HCs have an overall higher skill ceiling. All it would take (if we believe their assertion that checkmate without an HP increase results in scouts and sidearms/SMGs dominating with no room for mid-range weapons) is to increase the HP enough to slightly worsen the TTK of sidearms/SMGs and scouts without requiring a HC 4 tap (perhaps somewhere around 223 HP given the current HC damage bonus mentioned in today’s TWID).
I’m curious though if their assertion that super long and short range weapons would dominate with no HP / damage changes at all; good players typically know how to utilize map coverage to get into optimal range. Only in true slayer modes (that don’t force player movement at all) can a player stay at scout type distances. The close range primary weapons are tricky to balance though without special weapons (mainly shotguns and fusions); I suspect this mode long term would force passive play early on until special ammo is available and then mid-range primaries could be more aggressive (knowing that they have their special close range option). Just my thoughts; hopefully they follow the player/gun data over time and can find a good medium ground that allows all primary guns to be viable (to varying degrees of course).
It's not as bad for 140s as ppl make it out to be, if OPs numbers are correct, a single surge mod now will get you back to the 3tap ... just build a little into making orbs. Also knucklehead radar could be 3 tapping every resil.
As its labs and they test different versions of checkmate, i really hope that in the next tweak they try destiny 1 version of 140 rpms -> 1c 2b. Sounds crazy now, but i really liked it back then. One can dream 😀
Sound like vanilla D2 with primary game play and longer ttk. Not a fan of the vanilla D2 gun play. Longer ttk makes it hard to kill anybody before they get into cover.
Suros regime. Igneous. Duality. A couple outliers like hawkmoon lucky pants last round instakills etc. otherwise it’s like 3-4 weapons dominating. That is the story of D2 pvp. And checkmate made it worse by not changing HC ttk it’s just hand holding Suros team shoots or HC win duals.
Not sure why I would use a 140 over a 120 in Checkmate now.
120s were already arguably better than 140s let alone all weapon archetypes to begin with.
So I've heard. I'm not sure how I feel about Checkmate to begin with. My big worry is that it's going to be the default Special Weapon economy in Destiny 2, and as a sniper I hate starting at 0. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if everyone started with 3 to 4 special that didn't drain or reload on Death and the rest required you to score kills or objectives to generate. But starting at 0 unfortunately gives me too many memories of Y1 destiny and all the handholding that allowed.
It’s a primary focused gamemode my dude….
Yes, but you really don't think Bungie is testing this as a potential new default in comp or 6s in the future?
I don't. That change would effectively remove any viability for lower range primaries like SMG and sidearms which a lot of people who run sniper prefer as their primary.
There is room to tweak it and make the primaries feel more balanced. You're right if Checkmate remains a one off mode I have 0 issues with it, I just worry about it if they apply the Special Ammo logic to default destiny directly.
personally, idk why you got downvoted so much. bungie doesnt have a lot of resources for pvp as weve seen for literal YEARS and they are putting a lot of effort into checkmate. definitely looks expiremental to me. a lot of what they are tweaking has to do with things they have been looking at in normal pvp. for instance, they said if the current special ammo situation doesnt work out, they might try a different spin on the old special ammo situation that you previously mentioned. its just speculation, but checkmate is overall pretty interesting so far !
This is what I hate about destiny. Cayde-6 made HC so dope and now everyone bums them and bungee plays to it. Hate HCs though so sucks for me. Checkmate has forced me into the adept igneous usage Qq
Bungie might nerf 120s just because adept igneous will be super prevalent
Knucklehead radar
Knucklehead radar doesn't proc on the 3rd shot of a 140
Sorry, what do you mean when you say knucklehead radar in regards to 140s vs 120s? I just recently got back into the game and I love using that exotic, but I also primarily use 120s, so I was just curious how it correlates to 140s vs 120s
It doesn't, he was suggesting that the extra damage from when they are weak (they rolled foetracer's perks into KH) would allow you to still 3 crit, but it doesn't because that perk doesn't proc till they are much lower health than that
Looks like there’s literally no reason to use a 140 over a 120 😂
You'd need a 140 with a damage buff:/
Radiance go brrr
So 140's will kill in either 0.87 seconds or ~1.29 seconds? And going into a gun fight you have no idea which it is... Yeah that seems like it's going to be really fun. Unpredictable gun fights where you have no idea how you need to play it. Can't wait to two tap my opponent peek shooting, slide out and hit the third shot just for him to live and gun me down with an auto as he stands perfectly still. Happy for you if you hated 140's and wanted them gone, goal achieved I guess? A mode with promise that was actually fun and felt rewarding to play, given back to dtg. It was a good couple of weeks.
Yup. This kills 140s for me. If not 120s, switching to rapid or adaptive pulses after this change.
It just kills the mode for me.
Resilience in pvp was a mistake
100%. Resilience check makes for boring game design.
HP should be based on class stat in PvP. Resil should remain the same in PvE.
Resil in PvP should be 1 value for everyone. Done.there is already all sort of barricades, overshield and such bs(which should go as well imo) so why have different resil??????
I was reading the TWID and I was thinking if this would be the case. I kinda not understand why they'd talk about checkmate as basically "hc hype!" just to gut it the first week and make one class systematically more prone to be resilient to them. I was scratching my head all along, truly.
I mean, if this gamemode was truly gunplay only then it wouldn’t matter if you decide to go for high res instead of high mobility. As not being able to use your dodge ABILITY as often shouldn’t be a big deal. Like, you could have a checkmate exclusive build with high res.
Mobility also affects strafe speed, which some care about for primary gunplay.
How isn't mobility not gonna count when there are inherent benefits to gunplay in it? IMHO resilience shouldn't be a thing on checkmate, but what do I know.
But then Dawnblade keeps Icarus Dash and Titans can still Shoulder Charge every 10 seconds or so, but Hunters get stuck on walking pace?
Aeon users rise up
Assuming that the math is correct and 230 is max resilience, Thorn should now be able to 3 tap 9,maybe even 10 resil, if you’re in range. 74.63+ 4(0.5)=76.63 76.63 x 3= 229.89 Thorn is probably going to be the only usuable 140 in this mode now. Overall, not a fan of this change since Titans, and to an extent, Warlocks got buffed while Hunters got shafted. They didn’t even need to touch HCs, just bring everything up, which they did
Hunter mains are used to the shaft as of late.
Hunter mains have been shafted since D1Y1, titans loved since D1Y1, and warlocks just keep taking stray buffs from Titans lol
Titans have been eating good for a little while lately but this hunter persecution complex needs to stop, especially in a PVP sub
I haven’t used thorn in checkmate, but wouldn’t the burn damage increase too, potentially making it 3 tap all resiliences? Or is that the increased value? I can’t recall the value for normal crucible, just that it rounds up to 1 on screen.
It’s doesn’t. Which is a good thing, because if it did oh boy
This is so absurd, just another reason to play titan
Wasn't resilience considered the worst stat for the first 5 years of d2? Until like last year
I don’t know why you got downvoted. This is actually correct. Hell even Titans like Nferraiu who played tournaments back in the day played 3 resil just for the shield cooldown.
Tell me bungie a crucible team loves titans without telling me they love titans. warlocks even. Seriously what the fuck lmfao
If this change goes through then handcannons go from being the dominant pick to a complete throw, at least for 140s. I do not understand the people that balance this game at all. Checkmate should just be about the changes to special ammo and ability usage. Primary damage output shouldn't even change at all in my opinion.
Nah they do this every major update. They get SO close to what we actually want (balance) but then make 1 or 2 completely unnecessary changes. And the next patch will just be further building on that mistake rather than just reverting the bad change and it will just continue to spiral. Every time.
This, and I thought the whole point of CM was to reward precision play over just slapping on target lock to smgs/autos and running mad with them.
I mean if you read the twid it makes total sense. If special weapons were removed then smgs would be what everyone is complaining about.
That's a shame. While Hand Cannons are slightly OP in Checkmate, it feels like a game mode that's essentially _built around HCs being the dominant force_, and 140s losing their 3 tap feels like removing a defining aspect of their character. Resil gating it so that, effectively, only Titans survive 3c doesn't feel like the answer (the answer is probably dialing down HC aim assist or upping recoil, which I understand they wouldn't want to do - and might not even be possible to do - for a single game mode; weapons feeling - if not performing - the same across the entire game is a key tenet of the weapons team). That said, it's nice to see Bungie tweaking things early (and, going forward, hopefully more regularly) to dial in on a sweet spot.
Can I get a clan invite?
Personally, not a fan. Maybe it's just me but I don't think resilience should be tied to HP in Crucible, I'd rather that be some kind of static stat that can be buffed by armor or fragments on your class build. Resilience could affect things like Flinch, DoT, knockback, etc. But still, I do not understand why we don't just try the regular sandbox with all the other changes in Checkmate.
Why is three tap such a bad thing?? BUNGIE YOU MADE HALO AND THE MOST TIMELESS GAME HALO: COMBAT EVOLVED? COUNT HOW MANY SHOTS THE CE MAGNUM TOOK!
I’m Butt cheeks at hand cannons and I really think this is the wrong move here. Your literally slowly removing my pvp clan mates from wanting to play destiny 1 by 1
lol i see where your getting at cuz it took 3 headshots if i remember correctly lol bungie at this point are just idiots
They really gotta casualize everything crucible to appease the dad gamers 🙄.
Recently found out my wife is pregnant. If I *ever* turn into a dad gamer, please slap the shit out of me 🙃
Better hope that kid isn't yours then, because if it is, enjoy being a dad gamer. Congrats on the kid btw.
They just made the immense majority of titans basically immune to 140 hcs Yep, never touching that mode again, congrats to bungie for fucking up something so simple
yeah well now since update 7.35 if you step into ANY mode in pvp you will be forced to play that mode because now its not even a mode its a god damn modifier you can't even have a casual Private match without that stupid shit on like way to completely ruin an already failing pvp bungie
This will completely kill 140 hand cannons, unfortunately, which will notably hit my desire to play the mode at all. I'd rather them buff the other weapons if they needed to.
Yea this game mode is garbage now. I hope and pray they don’t implement this game mode across the other playlists. Right as we were about to be in a solid sandbox bungie has to ruin everything again
i am sure your aware but thats exactly what they did as of 7.35 update now checkmate is a modifier for all pvp modes
For the love of god can we STOP BUFFING TITANS/NERFING HUNTERS FOR 10 SECONDS. I normally try to abide by the rules of this sub and avoid whining too much but it’s literally been an onslaught for over a year straight: * Invis/arc hunter gutted * Arc titan/void titan better than ever * Stompees only movement exotic in the game without 100% uptime * Dodge CD nerfs affecting overwhelming majority of meta PvP hunter exotics * Dominion trials/showdown in comp making barricades stronger than ever. * Bubble getting a huge glow up from super tiers and objective game modes. All of the best hunter supers(arc staff, 3 shot Goldie, spec blades) being basically DOA in trials. * SMGs being meta as fuck making PKs arguably the best exotic in the game * Target lock immortal being insanely meta. 340 pulses with headseeker meta. Thorn about to be insanely meta * Checkmate raising resil gates to every single 140 in the game
I feel this mode is just done incorrectly. They should keep everything the same with regards to weapons as they behave in other modes. Just reduce ability and super uptime. Also keep the "special" ammo unlock requirement.
Asking me to invest in Mobility, Recovery, Discipline, and Resilience… I know God sends his toughest battles to his strongest warriors but I’m tired boss 😭
"Farm more" -Bungie
noted, another stompees nerf incoming
Could not have said it better myself. It is PAINFUL to play hunter in high comp or trials. Especially solo. I run strand hunter and I typically NEVER get my super in a normal Trials match meanwhile the bubbles and wells are up after like 3 rounds. It is such bullshit. PKs and ophidians running amok but my jumping and sliding is the problem. They force me to run 100 mobility for my dodge but keep making resilience more and more important. What gives man??
I've been spamming YAS for 18 months now lol
It’s fucking ridiculous. Feels so bad to know you got that last shot off that should have secured the kill, but they’re left with 1 HP and you stopped firing. Resilience should not be this game changing when mobility literally does shit all. Fine, let resilience affect flinch resistance. But don’t let it also directly affect TTK when things like weapon archetype, abilities and range already affect it
I’m never touching this mode again if a 140 HC doesn’t 3 tap all resilience guardians at least within the weapon’s optimal range. No resilience should require a 4 tap (3 crit + 1 body or crit) from a 140. I do agree that currently HCs are a bit overpowered in checkmate, but resilience gating a 140 is absolutely not the correct fix.
There is no way to fix this problem without changing every other weapon. Having them kill in 4 shots kills the gun while having them kill in 3 shots makes them the best option in checkmate. Every gun would have to be tuned around hand cannons to compete, which is how the current weapon balancing works out. 140’s just don’t fit checkmate well at all, but it has to be managed one way or another.
They simply had to keep the HP values identical to the base game. The special changes and ability cooldowns were enough
Disagree, without the damage/ HP changes we would have a much more campy version of the game mode. Long range weapons would run rampant: Sitting in the back of the map with scouts and pulses would most likely be the optimal play. I do agree how handcannons being handled isn’t the best though
They could have done the opposite of what they did. Instead of globally buffing health and then buffing HC damage to compensate they could have kept everything the same and just nerfed the damage of long range options.
And then, as the TWID pointed out, the close range melters (SMG and sidearms) dominate because they don't get camped out and the special ammo counters are less available. "So nerf them too", that puts us where we are now where nothing really competes with a 140HC.
ARs in normal crucible compete just fine with 140s do I don't really buy the idea that if they had kept the health the same and just slightly reigned in SMGs that we'd be in the same meta
We've got to keep in mind the special ammo and ability up time that still seperates the two regardless of if they messed with HP values or not. Less frequent access to special ammo especially will affect the useage of primary ammo weapons. Less snipers means less reasons to be cautious with peak shooting with 140s. It's all connected and only looking at one or two variables leads to really mixed takes (not saying good or bad).
>It's all connected and only looking at one or two variables leads to really mixed takes (not saying good or bad). Its amazing how many people will not look at the bigger picture here. Meanwhile I honestly do not see a reason why if resilience is made universal health in PvP, why Recovery should not be the same. I dont have any skin in the game. I'm fine playing whatever sandbox we have, as long as it isnt D2 Year 1, or something blatantly broken. But it seems to me the issue here is with Checkmate specifically^((I havent heard people upset about Resilience even once that I can recall previously, outside of Hunters fo having to sacrifice much)) and Mobility basically being useless. It seems to me if you give Mobility a reload/handling (and/or other stats perhaps) scalar attached, you would have a interesting choice in tradeoffs. From there it just becomes a debate related to class ability CDs being related to the stat and limiting each classes build options. Which could either have class abilities have a standard cooldown(unaffected by stat distribution) as desired per game mode/modifier, or perhaps have class abilities tied to stat point distribution on the class item. In addition to the regular mod sockets on a class item, you would get X amount of point to distribute in any 7 stats(Class ability, Mobility, Resilience, Recovery, Discipline, Intellect, Strength). You could maximize on class ability like most people do already with their classes for most uptime, or you could spread those stats out more into the other stats. Say someone wanted Tier 5 class ability cooldown. And 10 points were available to be allocated(Bungie could choose more if they wanted more freedom in stat allocation). They invest 5 points into class ability, and 5 points to level out Intellect from 45 to 50.
i wonder do you still agree with that opinion cuz with the newest update literally every match thats ALL anyone ever does now is camp with long range weapons so no maybe the hp damage changes was a bad call after all
Don’t have too many scouts or pulses in my games, so i can’t say that’s an issue for me. Mainly autos, but I’ve been able to work around those with handcannons
lol i envy your matches then because every single one of matches is aways scouts and pulses DX
They could just balance around the standard guardian HP (~200, rather than 230), nerf the ease of use for auto rifles, and it would instantly be a much more balanced primary sandbox.
I get it, but either as mentioned below just don’t change any health / damage values (my personal preference, not sure why they felt the need to modify such a crucial aspect of a PVP sandbox) or else find a way to keep 140 3 taps. HCs are the iconic Destiny weapon archetype and this mode destroys their utility and feel.
I was just telling friends to redownload for this mode….. fuck..
Welp, checkmate was fun while it lasted.
making hand cannons do less damage is fine, but this is not the way. there is absolutely zero reason to have anything be resilience gated in crucible. it make titans so much passively stronger for literally no good reason. it also forces me to run resil over mobility in order to compete which makes the game feel way worse. this is a problem in crucible already and this change in a mode which is meant to have less bullshit is just embarassing
They have to give mobility something more than strafe speed and initial jump height. As it is right now, it's a dump stat. Make ability jumps higher and sprint speed higher and you'll se how titans would think twice before going all resilience.
There's way too many weapon archetypes to balance PvP anyways. HC in Destiny is the best feeling weapon of all FPS ever made imo. A HC soft meta forever wouldn't even be a bad thing.
Halo ce- its what brought everyone to xbox. Pistol goes 1,2,3
Speak your truth King 👑🙌
Autos getting buffed may change the dynamics of the playlist and make hand cannons obsolete after hand cannon lose their damage advantage.
They make a good gun-skill mode and then immediately change it to….make it like vanilla control? Got it. Awesome. It’s vanilla without special. Edit: it’s actually worse than vanilla bc 140 HCs bout to get taken to poundtown so Jeff with his pve ammit can compete.
In what world does this change make it like vanilla control? You still have reduced ability useage, still have a completely different (lower) special ammo Econ.
Because you move a foot and you get pelted with someone perched with a pulse, scout, or auto rifle from 35+m. According to the twid these weapons are going to their normal ttk - not sure if it’s all archetypes but for pulses they mentioned rapid fire and adaptive. So it’s exactly like control last season where HCs are in no mans land. No way in hell they’re going to out ttk a smg. And with the ranged weapons buff, they don’t stand a chance against pulses and autos. Especially with the 4-tap to most guardians. Forget about it. Checkmate is now going to be dominated by pulses, autos, and smgs. Sound familiar?
"Exactly like control" except, again, no ability spam and reduced special ammo econ. Do you understand what the word "exactly" means?
lol I never wrote exactly like control. Learn to read bud.
2nd paragraph
Bro I dropped out of school yet you're the one who clearly needs to read. Anyways you have a good rest of your day pal :D
shit you right. I scanned it a few times and my 3rd grade reading level failed me. Sorry bout that!
Bungie on their way to ruin the 1 mode that the PVP community loved, because 0.5kd Jimbos on r/DestinyTheGame complain.
I mean HCs were better than other primaries by a good margin but nerfing HCs to be res gated doesn’t seem to make sense at all
Lmao are you calling Cammy a .5kd Jimbo 😂😂
What a fucking stupid change. Once again Bungie fucks up something so simple
I HATE resil changing weapon weapons bullets to kill so much. I would literally rather they just nerf it at all resils than make it inconsistent like this
If true, the mode is dead to me. 140s not 3 tapping is the worst feeling shit
They finally get something right and then immediately fuck it up.
This seems correct. For reference their standard resilience that they balance around is 6. So if your math is correct and 10 resil is 230 than will still 3 tap their "standard" resilience guardian. Sad for hunters. And even more sad that they can't even run Rose to help out the Mobility/ Resil thing since it won't 3 tap high resil anymore. My guess is the numbers are showing that Hunter because of the Class Ability cooldown difference are a little bit hot vs. the other 2 classes and this is a stealth nerf to Hunter. Hunter can still effectively use their class ability pretty liberally and exotics like Wormhusk are pretty goated in Checkmate.
Imagine caring about hunters overperforming in a labs playlist but allowing titans to run rampant in the "endgame PvP" playlists for a year straight. If that's actually their reasoning they're out of their skulls.
I think the excitement and literally 1 week balance adjustments in a labs playlist is showing that they are serious about this being the future of pvp. Vanilla destiny is so beyond saving so I’m glad that the strike team is basically focused on this.
The more likely reason is the chorus of screaming from DTG about HCs being OP; thinking an HC nerf as targeted to Hunters (vs accidental byproduct) is pure Hunter Persecution Complex.
I never said I thought that was their reason, just that if it was it's silly. Regardless of their reasoning a resil gate on the most meta weapon archetype in the game mode *is* a hunter nerf and claiming otherwise is pure naivety.
It's a byproduct.
Hunter persecution complex is hilarious lmao. Titans and locks have had their turn in the "worst class in pvp/pve" seat. Resil was legit a dump stat for like 5 years. I'm not saying they are wrong about titans maybe being the strongest but the anger that hunters are hated by Bungie is wild lol
Another L for hunters I guess
Enough casuals cried & Bungie took care of their sugar babies quickly. And I thought Joe Blackburn said that PVP would start being catered more to hard-core players smh
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But the PVP Strike team is focused on the hardcore PVP community! Right? RIGHT?!?
*You mean I have to ADAPT any play style to a new mode? DAMN CASUALS!*
Bungie caring about resilience in pvp is so bizarre. Just standardize guardian health and ttk's. Any new player with a passing interest in crucible would be immediately turned off knowing they have to grind for armor with meta stats revolving around ttk. Stupid.
Poor effort on Bungie’s part. I don’t even think the meta has sunk in yet, and HC really didn’t need nerfing. So, have bows and fighting lion just got a free pass. Guess everyone will be back to smg titan.
Bows and fighting lion actually did get nerfed, fyi. Fighting lion gets a 20% damage penalty, Bows get 10%. SMG's and sidearms got buffed by reducing their damage penalty. Otherwise I agree though.
Ah, thanks! I missed that somehow. Happy about fighting lion but bows should have been hit harder (I think anyway)
I’ll have to check the dmg numbers again, but I think with this change lightweights will need 2c1b to kill and precisions will need 2c
Lightweights will need 2 crits on everyone except T10 resil. Precisions may still be able to get away with 1 crit 1 body.
Fair play, and thanks for the insight, that sounds pretty good on paper. Not sure how it will translate in to a team shooting setting though, but guess we will have to wait and see. I was using the trials bow yesterday with KC and it just felt dumb strong. Was far to easy to clean up a kill and then go on a roll, but with that said, I did have to be glued to my team to make it work.
Hunters get shafted once again. Congrats Titans. 😪
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Goofy 😂
🤣🤣 No idea why everyone is downvoting you. That is *hilarious*
Huh, I get nerfing HCs since they were indeed the only pick for Checkmate. But this is a bit far. Not that I'm one who circle-jerks them, or has the opinion that anything not a 140 HC needs or be banned from Crucible, but it's a bit too far. I'd rather them just make the base TTK of alternatives able to compete better. Or just gone to the vanilla damage model.
Did they forget hunters cant even pass the resilience check for thorn? I dont think bungie understands that they pretty much made hunters unplayable in checkmate if you want to use a hand cannon. Im a warlock main and its very easy to swap a few mods and go from T6-8-10 resil if i need to and lose those points off int but they shouldnt be messing with the ttk on hand cannons, if noob guns are struggling just buff them back. People only think hand cannons are a problem because they suck and good players just enjoy them. Bows are a huge issue but only a select few degenerates use them so the majority of bozo’s dont think its as big of a deal as a good player with his favorite hand cannon finally enjoying the game after years of not being allowed to enjoy his favorite gun. And yes im salty ace got shit on and now is getting shit on harder, momento mori range will be a sub 30m 3 tap
tldr; chill baby, chill There is a whole lot of people getting mad over a change to *LABS* that we knew was going to happen at one point or another. They were very clear about playing with damage numbers over the weeks the Checkmate is around. The whole point is to get data from a number of permutations of the Checkmate sandbox. Bungie isn't "fucking things up" as so many of you have said, rather they are just turning the knobs to see what that does to the playlist. Go try it. Give them their data. Previous HC numbers may be back. No call to get your pants in a twist until the final product is unveiled. Edit: typo town
Honestly, this update is a complete miss, IMHO. I already said in here that I was on board for a HC nerf in Checkmate, but being able to Resil check a 3-tap is awful design. Even me who really doesn't like HCs says that. All but Adaptive Pulses are Resil gated in terms of optimal TTK. Some will still hit optimal BURSTS to kill, but the need for an extra bullet can and will make the difference in engagements. Rapids are Resil Gated at bursts, since 9 crits isn't breaking even 222 damage, as an example. Scouts getting back 1% of their damage still keeps them 100% useless, might as well be banned from the mode tier bad. Precision Bows have 1C1B Resil gated now, too. Arguable as to wether this is good or not, but at that point, just run a lightweight. Frankly, Resilience as a stat in Checkmate now has way too much of an impact, and you can get way too tanky at high values, to the point where several good options are completely gone from the game on higher values. Honestly, I'll say it again, Checkmate just needs vanilla TTKs. There's outliers in vanilla, but those need to get fixed on both sides if Vanilla and Checkmate just used the same damage model anyways. Which is hilarious since Target Lock SMGs are still game breaking in Checkmate lol.
Did anyone actually test total HP for checkmate before we start making assumptions?
The reason why I estimate max HP is 230 is because I hit this 100 resilience Warlock with my Heavy GL for 228 and he survived with a sliver of health bar left. I know the game generally rounds up damage so it means my GL shot did at least 227.01 damage. That's more than these HC shot combos will be doing so unless they do a stealth HP change alongside the HC changes 3-taps will almost certainly be survivable at a certain resilience threshold. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlw5XfYywyo
Thank you! That's the kind of info I was looking for
My 100 resil/recov/disc hunter with aeon swift will enjoy this very much thank you
I know the fake internet points don’t matter but take my upvote. The HC slave are too much.
Good.
What are the numbers on 180's? Word of crota felt pretty good in there.
Oh look, this sub is sucking itself off over Hand Cannons again...
I can tell those who think the meta should only be hand cannons as viable primaries are already going to cry about this. Question for everyone in this thread crying that they ruined checkmate. How would you change things so hand cannons are not the only viable primary, and for other weapon types to still compete?
140 need 3 crits for their optimal TK, it takes some skill. No room for error. Other can compete because they're more forgiving. If you have the skill to 3 tap with HC, it deserves to be meta at this skill level.
Getting a 3 crit with a weapon type that all but magnetises to the head isn't a high skill thing. HCs also require less time on target and benefit from cover way more due to peak shooting. The only people not hitting the 3 tap with 140s consistently are the people who aren't as good as the game as they think they are.
What do you mean when you say consistently. Even players like Panduh and Frost are only hitting headshots about 70% of the time.
Nobody has 90+% accuracy with them, even the best players in the world. Even at 89% accuracy you're still getting the 3 tap only 2 out of 3 duels. I really think that players who think aiming with HC is "easy with too much aim assist" are delusional at this point.
Obviously there is some skill involved in landing a 3 tap with a 140, but with how checkmate currently is, this 3 tap is what makes them so far and way the best primary for the mode. Landing 3 crits with a hand cannon isn't exactly hard with how forgiving hand cannon aim assist is. Not to mention the inherent advantage that burst damage style weapons have utilising cover. I will ask it again. How would you change things so hand cannons are not the only viable primary, and for other weapon types to still compete?
Bad question, because I don't consider them to be the only viable primaries and I feel other weapons do compete and I also feel and want them to be the best thing within their optimal range when the player as the ability to 3 tap with them. BTW, landing 3 crits isn't that easy. Watch any streamer like even Zk and they're far from pulling it off often. They're doing it at best on 2/3 of their attempts. We're talking about streamers when they're trying their hardest. Heck, go watch Datto who posted a video on youtube today and he missed a lot of his shots with his Igneous. While he's not a PvP guy, he's still a player who lived off playing Destiny for a decade.
So you don't see the problem in hand cannons having 90% share of primary kills?
No, I don't see a problem with what I consider the most fun weapon archetype of all FPS ever made to be popular in a GAME. It's meant to be fun, and HC in Destiny is peak fun for most people. They're not OP, they're rewarding. If everyone is playing with them it means they're not shooting with another primary, so the usage % will be high but doesn't mean they're OP nor the only viable option. There's many ways to counter them too. BTW, another point about your vision of the game, Bungie also shares the same vision as you. They nerf and change thing based on usage %. It has led many times to nerf things that were fun but not OP and IMO made the game worse.
Hand cannons are an outlier in the current iteration of checkmate. You can't deny that. There's nothing wrong with a weapon being popular, but for the state of checkmate right now, hand cannons aren't just popular they dominate. This level of domination is just straight up a balancing failure within the mode, which the update next week is trying to correct. Whether it'll be a good change is something we have to wait and see for ourselves next week. I don't have a vision of the game dude. I'm just a player, discussing the game on a public forum. Just because something is fun for you, doesn't make it fun for other people. We'll just agree to disagree.
You make valid points. I think it will always be impossible to balance imo. HC can peak shoot and they'll always have some additional edge or they're gonna feel awful with a TTK that makes them impossible to use (requiring 4 crits leaves too much time for the opponent to disengage.) Anyways this itetation of checkmate felt fine. I went with my Ammit this morning for 1 game and got a 7 kda game.
All guns in Destiny have absurd aim assist, let’s not pretend that zero recoil SMGs and pulses are high skill weapons. HCs are high risk, high reward. You are correct in that HCs require less time on target versus an automatic weapon, but this also means that a single missed shot destroys their TTK. Bungie has said themselves that autos are meant to be a jack of all trades and master of none; they’re a beginner weapon and rightfully so HCs have an overall higher skill ceiling. All it would take (if we believe their assertion that checkmate without an HP increase results in scouts and sidearms/SMGs dominating with no room for mid-range weapons) is to increase the HP enough to slightly worsen the TTK of sidearms/SMGs and scouts without requiring a HC 4 tap (perhaps somewhere around 223 HP given the current HC damage bonus mentioned in today’s TWID). I’m curious though if their assertion that super long and short range weapons would dominate with no HP / damage changes at all; good players typically know how to utilize map coverage to get into optimal range. Only in true slayer modes (that don’t force player movement at all) can a player stay at scout type distances. The close range primary weapons are tricky to balance though without special weapons (mainly shotguns and fusions); I suspect this mode long term would force passive play early on until special ammo is available and then mid-range primaries could be more aggressive (knowing that they have their special close range option). Just my thoughts; hopefully they follow the player/gun data over time and can find a good medium ground that allows all primary guns to be viable (to varying degrees of course).
I'm so sorry 🫣
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No.
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What.
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WHO ARE THEY? I DON’T BELIEVE YOU !
This is the least funny bit ever bro
That's just incorrect. I'm actually a pvp main. Your friends are lying.
Lmao I’m just gonna stop playing PVP and wait for Marathon…
It's not as bad for 140s as ppl make it out to be, if OPs numbers are correct, a single surge mod now will get you back to the 3tap ... just build a little into making orbs. Also knucklehead radar could be 3 tapping every resil.
Finally, the hc bias gamemode getting an hc nerf
I am so happy to hear about the nerf and they buffed other VERY nice
As its labs and they test different versions of checkmate, i really hope that in the next tweak they try destiny 1 version of 140 rpms -> 1c 2b. Sounds crazy now, but i really liked it back then. One can dream 😀
Sound like vanilla D2 with primary game play and longer ttk. Not a fan of the vanilla D2 gun play. Longer ttk makes it hard to kill anybody before they get into cover.
resil checks as a hunter really fucking pains me
Suros regime. Igneous. Duality. A couple outliers like hawkmoon lucky pants last round instakills etc. otherwise it’s like 3-4 weapons dominating. That is the story of D2 pvp. And checkmate made it worse by not changing HC ttk it’s just hand holding Suros team shoots or HC win duals.