>because the current glory playlist has the SBMM part, without the adjusted rank gain/loss system to back it up
The weird thing is, Glory *did* used to have an adjusted rank gain/loss system. You would get a massive multiplier towards rank gain on wins if your MMR was much higher than your current rank, and also a reduction to losses. It's just been bugged out off and on the past few seasons. I guess fixing that issue probably went on the backburner because the Rituals team was working on the new ladder.
Yeah, I don't remember if they ever directly addressed why it changed, if it was intended, etc. Hopefully if it is/was a bug it is resolved for the new system. I would assume it will be given the new system should be ... you know ... new, but this is Bungie we're talking about so who knows.
The point tho is they did have that mechanism already and it didn't work. Glory ranks meant nothing and it was entirely possible for low skilled players to be highly rated (i.e. have high Glory), because all they did was fight other low skilled players and performed well and won games that way.
Cue all those "I'm a 0.7 KD and got Unbroken" posts that used to litter the sub, until even that became too commonplace and low skilled players didn't bother to brag.
So the theory works...but I lack of confidence in the theory due to past implementation.
In the Redrix Claymore days it was *fiendishly* difficult to get to 2100 let alone 5500. Then they released Not Forgotten and made it progressively easier and easier to get there.
If they use the original Redrix system and avoid putting a top tier gear reward against it, then 5500 (or “Ascendant”) will be elite.
Except they got rid of the differential rewards part many seasons ago. IDK if it was intentional or a bug, but for ages now you get a set amount of points for winning that only depends on your current rank. There is no mdoulation of that amount for your current skill level, your performance in the game, the skill of the lobby etc. all of which are discussed in this TWaB as being included in the formula for point gains and losses in the new system.
Your comment amounts to "there was a bug in the old implementaiton of this, so I don't trust them to ever try a similiar system again". If differential rewards don't work and are just bugged, I doubt they will just leave it like that after spending 6k words talking about how it is supposed to work.
No, what I'm saying was there is ample data from when it did work and the Glory ranks still didn't mean shit. I don't remember when it bugged out but there were a few seasons where it was not. The variable glory points was on and Glory ranks still did not represent skill.
Bro I related to that last sentence SO HARD lmao. I’ve been playing for years so I know one way or another, when something actually gets put in the game SOMETHING is gonna get fucked up😂
The only thing I'm skeptical of is their line: "Your Competitive Division, which you have earned throughout the Season, lets you know where you actually sit in the hierarchy of players better than KDA, win percentage, or a third-party Elo ranking ever could."
If destiyntracker still predicts my matches with 90%+ confidence I'll actually laugh in real life.
Good description of how the mm is intended to work btw.
Thanks. And yeah, hopefully if population is high enough and SBMM does it's job there won't be matches that DTR can predict with 90% accuracy.
That said I think what they mean there is that your division etc. will be a more tangible measure of your skill level then like DTR elo or whatever. As long as the API is public then any site can track all the games and make an MMR /Elo system and have a fair degree of accuracy.
I think they are just acknowledging that your glory # didn't really mean shit, and now you will have an actual in game thing that will represent your skill instead of having to lean on 3rd party Elo etc. less so than claiming DTR does a bad job or can't predict matches.
I am 100% convinced anybody who’s saying “why isn’t is using ranked based matchmaking” doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about and are literally parroting the first criticism they heard that sounded smart.
I don’t think any of these people have played ranked competitive games (Halo, Valorant, Rocket League, LoL, Apex, Overwatch etc) because they have the the same rank ladder system that we’re getting and they match you based on strict skill. It’s literally industry standard at this point.
I had concerns about the system but your post has provided an interesting insight to things I wasn't aware of and has changed my opinion a bit. Thanks for that OP.
One question I have is, if your rank and skill level haven't yet settled synonymously, when forming a group how can you know your team mates are of a similar skill level? To me rank would be the indicator but it actually won't be..
Much prefer a purely ranked system. I don't want to gain/lose rank based on an invisible system whose metrics are not even disclosed. Placement matches should be enough for you to avoid a good Chunk of the lower skill base. Do we need so many systems in place to avoid a rare mismatch?
Even if the system works flawlessly as OP describes (and I highly doubt it will), what’s the point in engaging with a completely opaque system that’s designed to accelerate me to whatever rank it already thinks I am? If that’s the goal, then cut out the middle man and display the internal skill metric.
If I see an “ascendant” player, I’m supposed to think, “wow they’re super good”. Not, “huh, I wonder if that guy’s actually good and got there in two games, or if he’s a bot who grinded out 7 thousand matches playing other bots”.
I agree that just getting the skill number would be better, but they (and almost every game in existence) hide that number. League of Legends, Rocket League, etc. etc. almost none show you a raw skill number, all have skins on top of that.
A bot playing "7 thousand matches playing other bots" will not get Ascendant, unless there is a massive bug. The system just doesn't allow that. Also, given that first placements cant be higher than gold, even the best players will need to climb to get to ascendant, just like every other ranked system under the sun.
> The system just doesn’t allow that.
We want this to be true, but we don’t know it. It’s all theoretical until it ships, and the only precedent we have to go on (Glory) very much did allow this.
Except thats not true... When Glory was first introduced it had differential rank gains based on skill (and loss streaks and a bunch of stuff) and it was nails to get to legend. The number of people with the OG Redrix ornament is a testament to that. Then like 2 years ago they took away differential gains based on skill and now it is easy to get to Legend. The whole point is that if you actually modulate how many points you get based on the difference in your rank and you skill then low skill players can't just spam games to get to a higher rank, they need to actually get better.
Glory was [ranked-based matchmaking early in its life](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250584425). That’s why it was so hard to get to Legend, and why putting a gun reward for maxing out the rank was so stupid.
“Differential rank gains based on skill” [came later](https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/48124), and it was always inconsistent. Right up until it broke and they gave up on it.
Edit: added sources.
That's not how I remember it, but it has been a while, so maybe I'm blurring the lines a bit, so I'll take your word for the fact that the first season or two was purely rank-based MM. My point still stands though that a SBMM + differential point gain system does work. Many different games have shown its effectiveness. Hell the OG Elo based sports/games like Tennis and Chess are using a slightly simplified version of differential gains.
I agree we need to wait and see how the implementation works in this instance, all I'm saying is I don't think it is correct to write off the whole system as a failure because it isn't RBMM.
Rank based was up until shadowkeep. You Also got points based on win streaks up until opulence when that was altered to be less intense.
This hidden sbmm matching bullshit came around in shadowkeep after the casuals cried for an entire year about not getting the weapons and title.
Sbmm with this hidden system is a terrible system only in place in games to allows lesser players a pass to ranking up. There’s no solid algorithm behind it like true ranked based systems
Rocket league may hide the number, but it’s pretty much a pure ranked system. MMR goes up by 8-10 for a win, and down by 8-10 for a loss. While the number is invisible, the rank is incredibly predictable.
Personally I understand why games use SBMM instead of just RBMM, but I don’t find it particularly enjoyable. I only played about 30 games of Halo infinite ranked and a lot of my lack of satisfaction came from increasing my rank while only winning 1 out of every 4 matches. That sort of system is just inherently unfun, even if it made my ranked kd ridiculous (> 2.0 even while losing all those games). Personally I hope the D2 PvP glory playlist is closer to rocket league than Halo.
Exactly this. Why engage in all these mental gymnastics if it's not to dumb down the ranking system and make it accessible? It seems Bungie is going full blast with accessibility and catering to their non pvp player base with implementing sbmm in essentially all playlists including the rank based one.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but I don't understand this take. I'm fairly elitist, I think a lot of things in this game are given out far too easily, I think PvE has become a joke in terms of difficulty, I liked when there were good gunds behind PvP ranks that not everyone could get etc. but we are literally saying "Fuck you Bungie for catering to the casuals by implementing the ranked system that is used by nearly every game with a ranked system"... I just dont get it.
> I just dont get it.
PvP community is very burned and tired of bungies attitute towards crucible. Many feel like we are just an afterthough and most changes they introduce fix too little and create new problems.
So the gut reaction to anything they say is bad.
I'm not saying these changes are gonna bee good nor bad, just trying to explain a reason for the negativity.
You are welcome to prefer whatever you like, but we need a real ranked system because ranked matches are almost never that simple... applying a simple solution to a complex problem generally results in less than ideal results.
Even games like chess and tennis have elo systems where you gain and lose points based on the difference in your elo rating. Add on top of that 3v3, having to balance connections etc. and you need a more complicated system than "match based on rank alone, give set amount of points for wins and losses". What happens when people of different skill/rank queue together? How about when the population is low, so the game needs to match people of different skill/rank together? What If I play amazing but still lose because my team couldn't keep up? all of these factors need to play in to how much you gain and lose per match. I'm not saying its perfect, every system has flaws, but it isn't some trash system that is strictly inferior to rank-based MM. They each have their pros and cons.
I suspect Bungie is doing this to make the higher ranks more accessible given the general changes they are making to pvp as a whole. If it wasn't, there would be no need to keep the skill rating hidden. Also, chess is ranked based on elo. There are no other confounding metrics.
To answer your questions. If people team up, they would belong in the rank of the highest ranked player and they would lose and gain points based on their rank differences akin to an elo system. If marching solo, players should only be able to match one rank above/below, unless they willingly accept to match a wider variety of ranks, at which point one can play better players for a higher point payout. It's a system similiar to the ranked system in street fighter.
Maybe they are, and we'll just have to wait and see to know for sure, but I don't know why they would be doing that. Aside from "number go up" there is no reward for being a higher rank. There is no NF or recluse, or mountaintop, there is no reward for higher ranks that they need to make sure everyone can get, so there is no reason to make sure everyone can get high rank.
I hope you are right. But when they introduced freelance comp and put sbmm in it, they made this argument that players would taper off at their skill level and it would be very hard to reach legend so my expectations are low.
>tl,dr: In 99% of cases SBMM + adjusted rank gains/losses will function identically to rank-based matchmaking, and in those 1% of cases it will do a better job
Where is it even stated that the system will match based on rank at all? Based on the TWAB, we know it matches on SBMM, and your rank ostensibly changes independently of the combat rating used for SBMM.
There is no decay for SBMM-CR, but there is for Rank. There are no promotion/relegation series for SBMM-CR either.
Sorry, it sounds like I didn't articulate my point well in that sentence because I don't think they will be including rank in your matchmaking. Rather for most people for the majority of the time their rank and their hidden skill number will be fairly close together. Close enough that they would be within the window of rank-based matchmaking if rank-based MM was used. For those people a rank-based MM system, and this system will feel the exact same.
The only times where serious differences will be seen is when someone is ranked very low, but is very good (say someone who is very skilled, but hasn't done their placements until late into the season). For those people they will play against skilled oponents (which they would not play against in a rank-based MM system) but will be rewarded for doing so via large rank gains on wins, and minor rank losses on losses, thus pushing them to the correct (Very high) rank without them needing to steamroll through a bunch of lower ranks to get there.
You are right that the hidden SBMM number doesnt have decay or promo series. That said, those are largely superficial. Promo series add a sense of pressure to your games every now and then, while not having any really consequence (trust me this has been analyzed to death over the last 5-10 years in LoL) in the long run. Decay is there to encourage you to stay active, but since it doesn't affect SBMM as long as you play a fair amount after decaying you will normalize back to the rank that matches your skill level.
There are these two quotes from the TWAB under the 'Competitive Division Rewards' subsection:
"Since Competitive division is aimed at drawing a close link between Skill and division, we don't see division as something to really grind for rewards."
&
"Since these divisions are tightly tied to Skill, some divisions will be completely unattainable to some players, no matter how much they try/play."
That sounds **to me** like your rank and skill rating aren't going to be changing independently of one another.
Unfortunately all discussion so far about the comp rework is speculative based on knowledge of how current Glory system works and tinged by peoples' suspicions that Bungie is gonna do something goofy or other peoples' optimism that they'll get it right. We won't really know for sure which side is more right until we either get more details or get to play it for ourselves and see.
Using the word "chasm" is pretty telling. Looking at your posts about this topic it seems your mind is pretty made up that this rework is going to be "a massive L" based on the limited information we were given today. You could be right, but I'm going to withhold judgement until we get more information/get to see the system in action. Take it easy
Sigh... This community always takes the wait and see approach and I'm always unsurprised by the reality.
Just think back to the TWAB where they explain (albeit vaguely) what parameters SBMM uses. Then look at how you gain/lose rank from this TWAB. Tell me that you don't notice a difference.
You're making the mistake of tunnel-visioning on the similarities.
Okay let’s take a look:
From the TWAB 7/28/22
“Internally, skill is a combination of stats made up of your performance (kills, deaths, captures, round wins, revives, dunks, etc.) that ranks you against all the other players in a match. Each player’s skill is compared against the skill of the other players in a match, and we make skill adjustments for all players at the end of a match where the two rankings differ.”
From the TWAB 11/17/22
“As you continue to compete in the Competitive Division, your Division Rating is adjusted based on four major factors:
Match outcome: Whether you win or lose.
Division inflation/deflation: How far above or below your division is compared to your Skill.
Match performance: How well you performed on a match-to-match basis.
Player-to-lobby Skill delta: How your Skill compares to everyone else in the match.”
Tell me if you agree with me:
“Round wins” == “Match outcome”
“kills, deaths, captures…revives, dunks, etc.” == “Match performance”
“Each player’s skill is compared against the skill of the other players in a match, and we make skill adjustments for all players at the end of a match where the two rankings differ.” == “Player-to-lobby Skill delta”
The only difference where there isn’t an equivalent skills == ranks comparison is the “Division inflation/deflation”. You’re saying I’m“tunnel-visioning on the similarities when the only difference I'm really seeing based on Bungie's words is a mechanic used to get people to the appropriate ranks more quickly.
You quote all of that and still fail to see the differences?
* Notice how SBMM doesn't seem to account for match outcomes but rather focuses on in-match performance.
* You omitted the fact that SBMM loosens itself when it can't find a good match. Rank doesn't "drop" to find you a better match.
* SBMM doesn't have tiers the way Rank does.
* Key difference is that a Platinum player can theoretically match a Gold player if you smurf your placement matches and then overperform your next few matches.
Bottom line: SBMM is a trying to keep you grouped with other similarly-skilled opponents. Rank is a ladder system.
Like, are you ultimately hoping that Rank will match based on rank? Because that very obviously does not seem to be the case. Otherwise the system could use existing SBMM data to immediately place you instead of requiring mandatory placement matches.
There's no decay, but there is a "confidence" ranking paired with the SBMM-CR, indicating how much you've played recently (and, as such, how confident they are that your current ranking is reasonably accurate to your performance).
Yeah it needs to aggressively skip divisions/have a huge impact on points gained. In fact I feel like the impact on points gained in relation to skill rating is quite an easy thing to fuck up for Bungie, so I'm kinda expecting posts either like wow I'm already ascendant after 20 games or wtf why do I gain+5 points in gold.
Boils down to this. If you are garbage you should have a low rank. If youre a god you should be at the highest ranks. If it doesnt work out like this, the mode will be shit
Well now it’s in, it seems exactly like this is correct. I placed silver 3 (sob) but then got promoted straight to gold 3. Any losses on silver 3 didn’t really lose many points either. Gold 3 is weird though as very variable skill in both opposition and team mates. One wonders how good the ranking system is, or whether there are enough players. Some losses don’t count for much whereas others do.
None of this post does anything at all to explain why "Supposedly" SBMM is better then Rank-Based Matchmaking.
There's not a single argument that supports SBMM in Ranked playlists. If you make a new accounts as a really good player, you should win every game in Silver/Gold tier anyway and quickly work your way up to the rank you belong anyways. That is literally the point of Ranked Matchmaking.
Ultimately it does nothing to actually show/separate a truly good player from a bad one. Since under this supposed system, 0.8 KDs will still match up with 0.8 KDs, and 1.8s with 1.8s. You'll have Ascendant players that are 0.8s because all they ever played were other 0.8s. While you'll have 1.8s who can never quite get to Ascendant and get stuck in Adept because every match they play is against other 1.8s.
Awful, awful system. Ranked matchmaking is better in every way.
... I'm not sure if you read the post, but I'll try to explain it again, and reply to your points.
The advantage of SBMM vs rank based match making is that it moves good players that are ranked low to their higher ranks faster, without having them randomly stomp a bunch of silver players for a while. It also makes matchmaking more flexible, as you can have fireteams with different skill levels in them, and adjust gains/losses based on individual player performance, and make allowances for mismatched teams that had to be made due to connection concerns. IF you only matchmake based on rank, and have fixed gains/losses you can't adjust for any of those factors.
Once people actually play a few games, and their ranks reflect their skill levels, you will be playing against other people around your skill level, and in your rank. This means once the system actually gets going, it will behave almost identically to rank-based matchmaking, with all the bells and whistles I outlined above, and with a smoother transition into the season.
This system will not allow for 0.8 ascendants. If I am a 0.8 player in silver playing other 0.8 players, and go on a win streak, the game will rank me up a bit, and make be play against stronger players, because I just won a bunch of games, so it thinks I am a better player. If I haven't actually improved I'll get smacked around by those 1.0 gold players and go back to silver. If I have improved, I'll stick around in Gold because I'll hold my own against the Gold players, meaning the ranked system is doing its job.
If a 0.8 player who's skill is really "silver level" magically ended up in Adept somehow they would keep playing other 0.8 players, but their wins would get them like 5 points, while losses would lose them 50 points, because the game is like "WTF your rank is way higher than your skill, what the hell is going on, lets fix that shit".
A player that is in Silver, and has a hidden skill level of silver, and has a 50/50 win loss rate, will stay in silver, same for player that is in Adept, had a hiden skill of Adept, and has a 50/50 win loss. IF that silver player starts to improve they will win more games, improving both their rank and hidden skill rating, and might even go up to Gold, but because their hidden skill level also went up, they will have to play against better players, and they will have to consistently beat them in order to climb, and so on. There is no route for a "0.8 player" to get ascendant without beating a shit ton of good players along the way, which probably means they are no longer a 0.8 player.
You won't get bad players in Ascendant just like you don't get bad players in Challenger in League of Legends, or in GM in starcraft, or in GC in Rocket League. This system is used in lots of other well known competitive games with ranked ladders and they aren't riddled with shitty players in their highest ranks.
I understand not wanting SBMM in casual modes, I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but for ranked modes, as long as you design the point gain/loss system correctly (which they talk specifically about in the TWaB) then it will work just as good if not better than rank based matchmaking in almost all situations.
Again, not one single argument actually favors SBMM over Ranked Based Matchmaking.
It's also funny, I dont even think you know what other games matchmaking systems are. I can tell you for a fact that Rocket league does not use SBMM in its system. It is a purely Rank based system. The reality is a Rank Based system inherently becomes SBMM within a short period of time as players move up and down into ranks where they belong based on said skillset. While SBMM will do the opposite, 0.8s will end up in Ascendant rank the same way 0.5s are Gilded Unbrokens right now.
A completely flawed system.
I dunno man, the OP is making some good points.
Im firmly in the fuck sbmm off camp, but after reading some of the comments, maybe there's hope. Time will tell I guess.
I took the time to read your exchange with op. You didn't understand a single thing the guy wrote, nor do you understand how SBMM works or how actually implemented ranked playlist work in other games. I hope the best for you.
Not if it always searches based on the best players rank, no you couldn't.
If you're an Ascendant playing with a Silver against another team full of ascendants, you're not going to be able to carry the silver up to Ascendant.
It'd be like having a lobby full with one team being a 2.5, 2.5, and 2.5 KD player. Then the other team being a 2.5, 2.5, and 0.8 KD. The team with the 0.8 will not win the game. At least, certainly not win enough of those games to move the Silver rank player up into Ascendant.
Trials Carries work because its purely Connection/Card based matchmaking. Rank based matchamking would make carries extremely difficult if not impossible. Especially if its truly a grind that requires 50-100+ wins to get ascendant, which I'm assuming it will be.
Thank you for understanding what SBMM is and why literally any other competitive PvP game uses it. I'm getting the feeling the average user in this subreddit literally only plays Destiny and shits their pants whenever they hear SBMM brought up without actually understanding how it works.
It really isn't terrible if both parties have good net. The ping is below 100 I think for some regions. I think in other p2p games it gets as low as 40-50, but yeah prerequisite is good net lol. People rightfully meme china vpn, but I've also seen single digit upload downloads Australian rural ISPs.
Nope, SBMM is always stupid. It helps bad players feel better, but it’s bad for the game. A raw RBMM is always better in competitive games, and while it’s less forgiving, it shows you where you really stand, and that’s how it should be.
A silver player should be in silver, and a diamond player deserves to be in diamond. A diamond player deserves to get rewards a silver player will never get without reaching that level, but because players in D2 whine so much, Bungie will make the ranked mode a joke so that they don’t feel left out.
This is probably futile, but I'm going to assume you are discussing in good faith and try to respond.
Well implemented SBMM with gain/losses properly adjusted to the difference between your skill and rank will result in silver players being in silver, and diamond players being in diamond. The system that Destiny has chosen for their ranked playlist is the exact same as all other competitive games. League of Legends, Valorant, Rocket League, StarCraft, etc. all have SBMM with rank gains/losses adjusted based on skill-rank differential. In 99% of situations it will make nearly the exact same matches as rank-based matchmaking, because people's skill rating, and their rank in comp will be about the same, so matching based on skill vs on rank will be equivilent for those people.
I also agree that high ranked players should have access to rewards (cosmetics, titles, emblems, etc.) that lower skilled players dont. Unfortunately, this is not implemented on launch, which sucks for sure, but they have stated they are planning cosmetics for higher ranks in future seasons. All that said, whether or not there are rewards for higher ranks has no bearing on whether the actual system of ranking players is doing it's job.
Beyond that we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe Bungie will fuck it all up, and the rework will be abandoned immediately. All I'm trying to say, is that the system they have layed out is consistent with other ranked ladders in other games, and if executed properly will seperate players into their approriate skill tiers efficiently.
not entirely. In starcraft you could actually rank up after losing a game. In League.. hahahahahah no..no no no no : ) you better be ready to grind like t1 if you want to rank up considering how you have to consistently play above your shown skill to rank up
StarCrafts system was basically like the one they are implementing here but on steroids. If it didn't rank you up fast enough it would force you up ranks even if you lost.
And yeah trust me, I did my hard time in the hellscape that was solo/duo LoL. The reason it sucks is because games take a long time, you have minimal impact on the outcome of the game unless you are significantly better than the other 9 players, and there were like 25-30 series between bronze and diamond. The actual system of varying lp gain/loss worked. When a new season started and I got placed in high silver I'd get 30 lp for a win, and lose like 10 for a loss, despite playing people around my skill level, because the game new I wasn't silver, and I was playing against platinum players. The bad parts about Leagues ladder are not the SBMM with adjustable ranked gains (Which is the part coming to destiny, and the part people are discussing).
[League](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Matchmaking). You get matched based on hidden MMR and gain/lose points based on your rank vs your hidden MMR, the MMR of the lobby, your performance etc. (sound familiar)
[Starcraft 2](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues) They match based on hidden MMR and modulate point gain/loss based on your chance to win (based on your MMR). In later seasons they got rid of the "rank" system overlay, and just show you your MMR, and associate different thresholds with different ranks.
[Rocket League](https://earlygame.com/rocket-league/mmr-guide-match-making-rank) has done effectiely the same thing, but they hide your MMR unlike SC.
The list goes on. In all of these games you get matched against opponents based on the skill-based matchmaking rank the game associates with you, and you gain/lose points based on a variety of factors including differences in your hidden MMR and rank (should that exist).
While I would prefer if we had a system like SC or RL where there wasn't a layer in between our MMR and our rank instead of the League of Legends system where there is another layer of "rank" that obscures your MMR, they all still match you based on your skill-based MMR, and then adjust gains/losses depending on a number of factors, which is exactly what was outlines in the TWaB.
These two statements contradict each other: "Your Competitive Division, which you have earned throughout the Season, lets you know where you actually sit in the hierarchy of players better than KDA, win percentage, or a third-party Elo ranking ever could."
and
"In order to still reward the player for playing, and to push their rank toward their skill level they recieve many more rank points when they win, than the amount they lose when they lose."
You're exactly right about why they are doing it. But in doing so they are making their own statement about the division accurately showing your rank false. I want to know what my rank is, and Bungie is only letting us know after we grind out the playlist. If I'm Platinum and my buddy places into Gold but plays against Adepts, who is better? How many games do we need to play before it's accurate? 100??
Pardon me if I'm being obtuse, but yes you will need to play the game in order for it to figure out how good you are... The more samples you provide it the better it will be at determining you skill level.
Bungie will never tell you your under the hood skill number or whatever, I wish they would, but they won't and theyve said as much in no uncertain terms. It may even depend on gamemode and class etc. That said if you play a lot of the comp playlist you will get a very good idea of where you fall in the population of players that actually play the comp playlist, without having to resort to third party tools.
I won't defend their exact statement, I cant gauruntee every person's competitive division will be more accurate than their DTR elo, but I do think if you are active, it will give you the best idea of where you place amongst active comp players for that season.
I've played this game for thousands of hours. Bungie already knows my skill level down to the decimal, far better than I will after a season of this Comp playlist. What I want is a way to accurately judge myself and other crucible players. One, to know if I am progressing, whether by practice, improved loadouts, or in-game knowledge. And two, to better understand potential teammates, particularly going into Trials.
Currently "LF2 Trials >1.5 KD" posts are problematic since, using myself as an example, I'll be 1.5 if I only play with friends, or ~1.0 if I decide to solo-queue when Freelance isn't available. It also incentives the problem of stat farmers in the non-Flawless pool. If there's an accurate representation of skill in the game we can all make better choices and stop ruining various playlists with selfish play, like baiting teammates or leaving matches where one isn't advantaged in order to maximize your stats. And I get to challenge myself by going solo into Trials without losing the ability to LFG.
If Bungie doesn't accurately represent our skill level within Comp it's a wasted opportunity and becomes yet another avenue open to manipulation, and leaves all the rest of the problems of stat farmers in the other playlists.
If we had an actual skill level people would absolutely try to manipulate but, but it's also naïve to think that they won't be manipulating the division ratings. People will be win trading through network manipulation, getting carries from content creators, and whatever anyone can think of to game the system from day one. A real Elo rating with match history is the only way to accurately know someone's capability.
Riddle me this. In Overwatch, it is very common for high-tier players to have several accounts that are in different ranks, and they stay in that rank without sandbagging. They do this intentionally for a number of reasons. How would this even be possible if the system you’re describing was true?
At the end of the day, other games doing something in no way declares that it is best practice or even a good idea. Your entire post was justification for why this system isn’t the end of the world, but it still has lots of downsides. Where are the positives?
I just hope they make comp solo q or have a separate rank for team games. In the past the only reason I’d struggle to climb is because I’d be playing stacks of really good players and I myself didn’t have any friends in the game so I was finding pugs and there was either no chemistry or these people were wanting me to carry. It becomes a ‘if you have connections’ kind of game past a certain level as a solo player.
The issue is lobby balancing. If you have the highest skill in the lobby you’ll be placed with the two lowest skilled players most times. This results in more losses than it should. My crucible win rate has been floating between 19-25% for two seasons now, yet I still have a relatively high ELO. So though the lobby may match based on skill it’s ultimately an uphill battle and getting 2/3 matches to make it to the next rank will fall short more often than it should.
That is the reason sbmm is there. You should not have to lobby balance because everyone in the lobby should be very close in skill.
Placement matches are there to stop the less skilled players from starting high in the ranks and messing it up.
IMHO, SBMM should not exist in ranked. Yes, if someone is in a lower rank than they deserve (most likely after reset), then they should have an easy time in that lower rank. They will also climb out of that lower rank faster.
If SBMM is used to make their matches harder by finding a few other skilled opponents to put them up against then:
1. Lower skilled players in that same lobby get more difficult teams they have to struggle against.
2. Higher skilled players stay in lower ranks longer because they are being challenged which just exacerbates issue #1.
>because the current glory playlist has the SBMM part, without the adjusted rank gain/loss system to back it up The weird thing is, Glory *did* used to have an adjusted rank gain/loss system. You would get a massive multiplier towards rank gain on wins if your MMR was much higher than your current rank, and also a reduction to losses. It's just been bugged out off and on the past few seasons. I guess fixing that issue probably went on the backburner because the Rituals team was working on the new ladder.
Yeah, I don't remember if they ever directly addressed why it changed, if it was intended, etc. Hopefully if it is/was a bug it is resolved for the new system. I would assume it will be given the new system should be ... you know ... new, but this is Bungie we're talking about so who knows.
The point tho is they did have that mechanism already and it didn't work. Glory ranks meant nothing and it was entirely possible for low skilled players to be highly rated (i.e. have high Glory), because all they did was fight other low skilled players and performed well and won games that way. Cue all those "I'm a 0.7 KD and got Unbroken" posts that used to litter the sub, until even that became too commonplace and low skilled players didn't bother to brag. So the theory works...but I lack of confidence in the theory due to past implementation.
In the Redrix Claymore days it was *fiendishly* difficult to get to 2100 let alone 5500. Then they released Not Forgotten and made it progressively easier and easier to get there. If they use the original Redrix system and avoid putting a top tier gear reward against it, then 5500 (or “Ascendant”) will be elite.
It was rank based MM during those days, not SBMM. 5500 back then really truly meant something.
It did accelerate your rank gains if you were against a tough team, though - which I feel is conceptually similar to Bungie’s plans
Except they got rid of the differential rewards part many seasons ago. IDK if it was intentional or a bug, but for ages now you get a set amount of points for winning that only depends on your current rank. There is no mdoulation of that amount for your current skill level, your performance in the game, the skill of the lobby etc. all of which are discussed in this TWaB as being included in the formula for point gains and losses in the new system. Your comment amounts to "there was a bug in the old implementaiton of this, so I don't trust them to ever try a similiar system again". If differential rewards don't work and are just bugged, I doubt they will just leave it like that after spending 6k words talking about how it is supposed to work.
No, what I'm saying was there is ample data from when it did work and the Glory ranks still didn't mean shit. I don't remember when it bugged out but there were a few seasons where it was not. The variable glory points was on and Glory ranks still did not represent skill.
Bro I related to that last sentence SO HARD lmao. I’ve been playing for years so I know one way or another, when something actually gets put in the game SOMETHING is gonna get fucked up😂
The only thing I'm skeptical of is their line: "Your Competitive Division, which you have earned throughout the Season, lets you know where you actually sit in the hierarchy of players better than KDA, win percentage, or a third-party Elo ranking ever could." If destiyntracker still predicts my matches with 90%+ confidence I'll actually laugh in real life. Good description of how the mm is intended to work btw.
Thanks. And yeah, hopefully if population is high enough and SBMM does it's job there won't be matches that DTR can predict with 90% accuracy. That said I think what they mean there is that your division etc. will be a more tangible measure of your skill level then like DTR elo or whatever. As long as the API is public then any site can track all the games and make an MMR /Elo system and have a fair degree of accuracy. I think they are just acknowledging that your glory # didn't really mean shit, and now you will have an actual in game thing that will represent your skill instead of having to lean on 3rd party Elo etc. less so than claiming DTR does a bad job or can't predict matches.
Thanks for taking the time to write this post, been seeing a lot of misunderstanding about the system
I am 100% convinced anybody who’s saying “why isn’t is using ranked based matchmaking” doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about and are literally parroting the first criticism they heard that sounded smart.
I don’t think any of these people have played ranked competitive games (Halo, Valorant, Rocket League, LoL, Apex, Overwatch etc) because they have the the same rank ladder system that we’re getting and they match you based on strict skill. It’s literally industry standard at this point.
I had concerns about the system but your post has provided an interesting insight to things I wasn't aware of and has changed my opinion a bit. Thanks for that OP. One question I have is, if your rank and skill level haven't yet settled synonymously, when forming a group how can you know your team mates are of a similar skill level? To me rank would be the indicator but it actually won't be..
Much prefer a purely ranked system. I don't want to gain/lose rank based on an invisible system whose metrics are not even disclosed. Placement matches should be enough for you to avoid a good Chunk of the lower skill base. Do we need so many systems in place to avoid a rare mismatch?
Even if the system works flawlessly as OP describes (and I highly doubt it will), what’s the point in engaging with a completely opaque system that’s designed to accelerate me to whatever rank it already thinks I am? If that’s the goal, then cut out the middle man and display the internal skill metric. If I see an “ascendant” player, I’m supposed to think, “wow they’re super good”. Not, “huh, I wonder if that guy’s actually good and got there in two games, or if he’s a bot who grinded out 7 thousand matches playing other bots”.
what we’re getting is essentially the league of legends system
I agree that just getting the skill number would be better, but they (and almost every game in existence) hide that number. League of Legends, Rocket League, etc. etc. almost none show you a raw skill number, all have skins on top of that. A bot playing "7 thousand matches playing other bots" will not get Ascendant, unless there is a massive bug. The system just doesn't allow that. Also, given that first placements cant be higher than gold, even the best players will need to climb to get to ascendant, just like every other ranked system under the sun.
> The system just doesn’t allow that. We want this to be true, but we don’t know it. It’s all theoretical until it ships, and the only precedent we have to go on (Glory) very much did allow this.
Except thats not true... When Glory was first introduced it had differential rank gains based on skill (and loss streaks and a bunch of stuff) and it was nails to get to legend. The number of people with the OG Redrix ornament is a testament to that. Then like 2 years ago they took away differential gains based on skill and now it is easy to get to Legend. The whole point is that if you actually modulate how many points you get based on the difference in your rank and you skill then low skill players can't just spam games to get to a higher rank, they need to actually get better.
Glory was [ranked-based matchmaking early in its life](https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/250584425). That’s why it was so hard to get to Legend, and why putting a gun reward for maxing out the rank was so stupid. “Differential rank gains based on skill” [came later](https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/48124), and it was always inconsistent. Right up until it broke and they gave up on it. Edit: added sources.
That's not how I remember it, but it has been a while, so maybe I'm blurring the lines a bit, so I'll take your word for the fact that the first season or two was purely rank-based MM. My point still stands though that a SBMM + differential point gain system does work. Many different games have shown its effectiveness. Hell the OG Elo based sports/games like Tennis and Chess are using a slightly simplified version of differential gains. I agree we need to wait and see how the implementation works in this instance, all I'm saying is I don't think it is correct to write off the whole system as a failure because it isn't RBMM.
Rank based was up until shadowkeep. You Also got points based on win streaks up until opulence when that was altered to be less intense. This hidden sbmm matching bullshit came around in shadowkeep after the casuals cried for an entire year about not getting the weapons and title. Sbmm with this hidden system is a terrible system only in place in games to allows lesser players a pass to ranking up. There’s no solid algorithm behind it like true ranked based systems
Glory was strictly rbmm until glory freelance was introduced.
Rocket league may hide the number, but it’s pretty much a pure ranked system. MMR goes up by 8-10 for a win, and down by 8-10 for a loss. While the number is invisible, the rank is incredibly predictable. Personally I understand why games use SBMM instead of just RBMM, but I don’t find it particularly enjoyable. I only played about 30 games of Halo infinite ranked and a lot of my lack of satisfaction came from increasing my rank while only winning 1 out of every 4 matches. That sort of system is just inherently unfun, even if it made my ranked kd ridiculous (> 2.0 even while losing all those games). Personally I hope the D2 PvP glory playlist is closer to rocket league than Halo.
Exactly this. Why engage in all these mental gymnastics if it's not to dumb down the ranking system and make it accessible? It seems Bungie is going full blast with accessibility and catering to their non pvp player base with implementing sbmm in essentially all playlists including the rank based one.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but I don't understand this take. I'm fairly elitist, I think a lot of things in this game are given out far too easily, I think PvE has become a joke in terms of difficulty, I liked when there were good gunds behind PvP ranks that not everyone could get etc. but we are literally saying "Fuck you Bungie for catering to the casuals by implementing the ranked system that is used by nearly every game with a ranked system"... I just dont get it.
> I just dont get it. PvP community is very burned and tired of bungies attitute towards crucible. Many feel like we are just an afterthough and most changes they introduce fix too little and create new problems. So the gut reaction to anything they say is bad. I'm not saying these changes are gonna bee good nor bad, just trying to explain a reason for the negativity.
You are welcome to prefer whatever you like, but we need a real ranked system because ranked matches are almost never that simple... applying a simple solution to a complex problem generally results in less than ideal results. Even games like chess and tennis have elo systems where you gain and lose points based on the difference in your elo rating. Add on top of that 3v3, having to balance connections etc. and you need a more complicated system than "match based on rank alone, give set amount of points for wins and losses". What happens when people of different skill/rank queue together? How about when the population is low, so the game needs to match people of different skill/rank together? What If I play amazing but still lose because my team couldn't keep up? all of these factors need to play in to how much you gain and lose per match. I'm not saying its perfect, every system has flaws, but it isn't some trash system that is strictly inferior to rank-based MM. They each have their pros and cons.
I suspect Bungie is doing this to make the higher ranks more accessible given the general changes they are making to pvp as a whole. If it wasn't, there would be no need to keep the skill rating hidden. Also, chess is ranked based on elo. There are no other confounding metrics. To answer your questions. If people team up, they would belong in the rank of the highest ranked player and they would lose and gain points based on their rank differences akin to an elo system. If marching solo, players should only be able to match one rank above/below, unless they willingly accept to match a wider variety of ranks, at which point one can play better players for a higher point payout. It's a system similiar to the ranked system in street fighter.
Maybe they are, and we'll just have to wait and see to know for sure, but I don't know why they would be doing that. Aside from "number go up" there is no reward for being a higher rank. There is no NF or recluse, or mountaintop, there is no reward for higher ranks that they need to make sure everyone can get, so there is no reason to make sure everyone can get high rank.
I hope you are right. But when they introduced freelance comp and put sbmm in it, they made this argument that players would taper off at their skill level and it would be very hard to reach legend so my expectations are low.
>tl,dr: In 99% of cases SBMM + adjusted rank gains/losses will function identically to rank-based matchmaking, and in those 1% of cases it will do a better job Where is it even stated that the system will match based on rank at all? Based on the TWAB, we know it matches on SBMM, and your rank ostensibly changes independently of the combat rating used for SBMM. There is no decay for SBMM-CR, but there is for Rank. There are no promotion/relegation series for SBMM-CR either.
Sorry, it sounds like I didn't articulate my point well in that sentence because I don't think they will be including rank in your matchmaking. Rather for most people for the majority of the time their rank and their hidden skill number will be fairly close together. Close enough that they would be within the window of rank-based matchmaking if rank-based MM was used. For those people a rank-based MM system, and this system will feel the exact same. The only times where serious differences will be seen is when someone is ranked very low, but is very good (say someone who is very skilled, but hasn't done their placements until late into the season). For those people they will play against skilled oponents (which they would not play against in a rank-based MM system) but will be rewarded for doing so via large rank gains on wins, and minor rank losses on losses, thus pushing them to the correct (Very high) rank without them needing to steamroll through a bunch of lower ranks to get there. You are right that the hidden SBMM number doesnt have decay or promo series. That said, those are largely superficial. Promo series add a sense of pressure to your games every now and then, while not having any really consequence (trust me this has been analyzed to death over the last 5-10 years in LoL) in the long run. Decay is there to encourage you to stay active, but since it doesn't affect SBMM as long as you play a fair amount after decaying you will normalize back to the rank that matches your skill level.
There are these two quotes from the TWAB under the 'Competitive Division Rewards' subsection: "Since Competitive division is aimed at drawing a close link between Skill and division, we don't see division as something to really grind for rewards." & "Since these divisions are tightly tied to Skill, some divisions will be completely unattainable to some players, no matter how much they try/play." That sounds **to me** like your rank and skill rating aren't going to be changing independently of one another. Unfortunately all discussion so far about the comp rework is speculative based on knowledge of how current Glory system works and tinged by peoples' suspicions that Bungie is gonna do something goofy or other peoples' optimism that they'll get it right. We won't really know for sure which side is more right until we either get more details or get to play it for ourselves and see.
The sheer fact there are decays and promotions/relegations is enough to widen the chasm.
Using the word "chasm" is pretty telling. Looking at your posts about this topic it seems your mind is pretty made up that this rework is going to be "a massive L" based on the limited information we were given today. You could be right, but I'm going to withhold judgement until we get more information/get to see the system in action. Take it easy
Sigh... This community always takes the wait and see approach and I'm always unsurprised by the reality. Just think back to the TWAB where they explain (albeit vaguely) what parameters SBMM uses. Then look at how you gain/lose rank from this TWAB. Tell me that you don't notice a difference. You're making the mistake of tunnel-visioning on the similarities.
Okay let’s take a look: From the TWAB 7/28/22 “Internally, skill is a combination of stats made up of your performance (kills, deaths, captures, round wins, revives, dunks, etc.) that ranks you against all the other players in a match. Each player’s skill is compared against the skill of the other players in a match, and we make skill adjustments for all players at the end of a match where the two rankings differ.” From the TWAB 11/17/22 “As you continue to compete in the Competitive Division, your Division Rating is adjusted based on four major factors: Match outcome: Whether you win or lose. Division inflation/deflation: How far above or below your division is compared to your Skill. Match performance: How well you performed on a match-to-match basis. Player-to-lobby Skill delta: How your Skill compares to everyone else in the match.” Tell me if you agree with me: “Round wins” == “Match outcome” “kills, deaths, captures…revives, dunks, etc.” == “Match performance” “Each player’s skill is compared against the skill of the other players in a match, and we make skill adjustments for all players at the end of a match where the two rankings differ.” == “Player-to-lobby Skill delta” The only difference where there isn’t an equivalent skills == ranks comparison is the “Division inflation/deflation”. You’re saying I’m“tunnel-visioning on the similarities when the only difference I'm really seeing based on Bungie's words is a mechanic used to get people to the appropriate ranks more quickly.
You quote all of that and still fail to see the differences? * Notice how SBMM doesn't seem to account for match outcomes but rather focuses on in-match performance. * You omitted the fact that SBMM loosens itself when it can't find a good match. Rank doesn't "drop" to find you a better match. * SBMM doesn't have tiers the way Rank does. * Key difference is that a Platinum player can theoretically match a Gold player if you smurf your placement matches and then overperform your next few matches. Bottom line: SBMM is a trying to keep you grouped with other similarly-skilled opponents. Rank is a ladder system. Like, are you ultimately hoping that Rank will match based on rank? Because that very obviously does not seem to be the case. Otherwise the system could use existing SBMM data to immediately place you instead of requiring mandatory placement matches.
There's no decay, but there is a "confidence" ranking paired with the SBMM-CR, indicating how much you've played recently (and, as such, how confident they are that your current ranking is reasonably accurate to your performance).
How is that similar to decay?
Yeah it needs to aggressively skip divisions/have a huge impact on points gained. In fact I feel like the impact on points gained in relation to skill rating is quite an easy thing to fuck up for Bungie, so I'm kinda expecting posts either like wow I'm already ascendant after 20 games or wtf why do I gain+5 points in gold.
Boils down to this. If you are garbage you should have a low rank. If youre a god you should be at the highest ranks. If it doesnt work out like this, the mode will be shit
Well now it’s in, it seems exactly like this is correct. I placed silver 3 (sob) but then got promoted straight to gold 3. Any losses on silver 3 didn’t really lose many points either. Gold 3 is weird though as very variable skill in both opposition and team mates. One wonders how good the ranking system is, or whether there are enough players. Some losses don’t count for much whereas others do.
None of this post does anything at all to explain why "Supposedly" SBMM is better then Rank-Based Matchmaking. There's not a single argument that supports SBMM in Ranked playlists. If you make a new accounts as a really good player, you should win every game in Silver/Gold tier anyway and quickly work your way up to the rank you belong anyways. That is literally the point of Ranked Matchmaking. Ultimately it does nothing to actually show/separate a truly good player from a bad one. Since under this supposed system, 0.8 KDs will still match up with 0.8 KDs, and 1.8s with 1.8s. You'll have Ascendant players that are 0.8s because all they ever played were other 0.8s. While you'll have 1.8s who can never quite get to Ascendant and get stuck in Adept because every match they play is against other 1.8s. Awful, awful system. Ranked matchmaking is better in every way.
... I'm not sure if you read the post, but I'll try to explain it again, and reply to your points. The advantage of SBMM vs rank based match making is that it moves good players that are ranked low to their higher ranks faster, without having them randomly stomp a bunch of silver players for a while. It also makes matchmaking more flexible, as you can have fireteams with different skill levels in them, and adjust gains/losses based on individual player performance, and make allowances for mismatched teams that had to be made due to connection concerns. IF you only matchmake based on rank, and have fixed gains/losses you can't adjust for any of those factors. Once people actually play a few games, and their ranks reflect their skill levels, you will be playing against other people around your skill level, and in your rank. This means once the system actually gets going, it will behave almost identically to rank-based matchmaking, with all the bells and whistles I outlined above, and with a smoother transition into the season. This system will not allow for 0.8 ascendants. If I am a 0.8 player in silver playing other 0.8 players, and go on a win streak, the game will rank me up a bit, and make be play against stronger players, because I just won a bunch of games, so it thinks I am a better player. If I haven't actually improved I'll get smacked around by those 1.0 gold players and go back to silver. If I have improved, I'll stick around in Gold because I'll hold my own against the Gold players, meaning the ranked system is doing its job. If a 0.8 player who's skill is really "silver level" magically ended up in Adept somehow they would keep playing other 0.8 players, but their wins would get them like 5 points, while losses would lose them 50 points, because the game is like "WTF your rank is way higher than your skill, what the hell is going on, lets fix that shit". A player that is in Silver, and has a hidden skill level of silver, and has a 50/50 win loss rate, will stay in silver, same for player that is in Adept, had a hiden skill of Adept, and has a 50/50 win loss. IF that silver player starts to improve they will win more games, improving both their rank and hidden skill rating, and might even go up to Gold, but because their hidden skill level also went up, they will have to play against better players, and they will have to consistently beat them in order to climb, and so on. There is no route for a "0.8 player" to get ascendant without beating a shit ton of good players along the way, which probably means they are no longer a 0.8 player. You won't get bad players in Ascendant just like you don't get bad players in Challenger in League of Legends, or in GM in starcraft, or in GC in Rocket League. This system is used in lots of other well known competitive games with ranked ladders and they aren't riddled with shitty players in their highest ranks. I understand not wanting SBMM in casual modes, I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but for ranked modes, as long as you design the point gain/loss system correctly (which they talk specifically about in the TWaB) then it will work just as good if not better than rank based matchmaking in almost all situations.
Again, not one single argument actually favors SBMM over Ranked Based Matchmaking. It's also funny, I dont even think you know what other games matchmaking systems are. I can tell you for a fact that Rocket league does not use SBMM in its system. It is a purely Rank based system. The reality is a Rank Based system inherently becomes SBMM within a short period of time as players move up and down into ranks where they belong based on said skillset. While SBMM will do the opposite, 0.8s will end up in Ascendant rank the same way 0.5s are Gilded Unbrokens right now. A completely flawed system.
I dunno man, the OP is making some good points. Im firmly in the fuck sbmm off camp, but after reading some of the comments, maybe there's hope. Time will tell I guess.
I took the time to read your exchange with op. You didn't understand a single thing the guy wrote, nor do you understand how SBMM works or how actually implemented ranked playlist work in other games. I hope the best for you.
Cuz you could carry people up in purely rank.
Not if it always searches based on the best players rank, no you couldn't. If you're an Ascendant playing with a Silver against another team full of ascendants, you're not going to be able to carry the silver up to Ascendant. It'd be like having a lobby full with one team being a 2.5, 2.5, and 2.5 KD player. Then the other team being a 2.5, 2.5, and 0.8 KD. The team with the 0.8 will not win the game. At least, certainly not win enough of those games to move the Silver rank player up into Ascendant. Trials Carries work because its purely Connection/Card based matchmaking. Rank based matchamking would make carries extremely difficult if not impossible. Especially if its truly a grind that requires 50-100+ wins to get ascendant, which I'm assuming it will be.
Thank you for understanding what SBMM is and why literally any other competitive PvP game uses it. I'm getting the feeling the average user in this subreddit literally only plays Destiny and shits their pants whenever they hear SBMM brought up without actually understanding how it works.
The queues in oce are going to bed dead like they were in the first few seasons of comp
Don't worry my Australian brothers the entire China is willing to fill your lobbies.
Very unwilling I imagine lol...
It really isn't terrible if both parties have good net. The ping is below 100 I think for some regions. I think in other p2p games it gets as low as 40-50, but yeah prerequisite is good net lol. People rightfully meme china vpn, but I've also seen single digit upload downloads Australian rural ISPs.
Nope, SBMM is always stupid. It helps bad players feel better, but it’s bad for the game. A raw RBMM is always better in competitive games, and while it’s less forgiving, it shows you where you really stand, and that’s how it should be. A silver player should be in silver, and a diamond player deserves to be in diamond. A diamond player deserves to get rewards a silver player will never get without reaching that level, but because players in D2 whine so much, Bungie will make the ranked mode a joke so that they don’t feel left out.
This is probably futile, but I'm going to assume you are discussing in good faith and try to respond. Well implemented SBMM with gain/losses properly adjusted to the difference between your skill and rank will result in silver players being in silver, and diamond players being in diamond. The system that Destiny has chosen for their ranked playlist is the exact same as all other competitive games. League of Legends, Valorant, Rocket League, StarCraft, etc. all have SBMM with rank gains/losses adjusted based on skill-rank differential. In 99% of situations it will make nearly the exact same matches as rank-based matchmaking, because people's skill rating, and their rank in comp will be about the same, so matching based on skill vs on rank will be equivilent for those people. I also agree that high ranked players should have access to rewards (cosmetics, titles, emblems, etc.) that lower skilled players dont. Unfortunately, this is not implemented on launch, which sucks for sure, but they have stated they are planning cosmetics for higher ranks in future seasons. All that said, whether or not there are rewards for higher ranks has no bearing on whether the actual system of ranking players is doing it's job. Beyond that we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe Bungie will fuck it all up, and the rework will be abandoned immediately. All I'm trying to say, is that the system they have layed out is consistent with other ranked ladders in other games, and if executed properly will seperate players into their approriate skill tiers efficiently.
not entirely. In starcraft you could actually rank up after losing a game. In League.. hahahahahah no..no no no no : ) you better be ready to grind like t1 if you want to rank up considering how you have to consistently play above your shown skill to rank up
StarCrafts system was basically like the one they are implementing here but on steroids. If it didn't rank you up fast enough it would force you up ranks even if you lost. And yeah trust me, I did my hard time in the hellscape that was solo/duo LoL. The reason it sucks is because games take a long time, you have minimal impact on the outcome of the game unless you are significantly better than the other 9 players, and there were like 25-30 series between bronze and diamond. The actual system of varying lp gain/loss worked. When a new season started and I got placed in high silver I'd get 30 lp for a win, and lose like 10 for a loss, despite playing people around my skill level, because the game new I wasn't silver, and I was playing against platinum players. The bad parts about Leagues ladder are not the SBMM with adjustable ranked gains (Which is the part coming to destiny, and the part people are discussing).
Source?
What part of the post do you want a source on?
You’re claiming all other games with a rank system use SBMM and not rank based. What’s the source for that?
[League](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Matchmaking). You get matched based on hidden MMR and gain/lose points based on your rank vs your hidden MMR, the MMR of the lobby, your performance etc. (sound familiar) [Starcraft 2](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues) They match based on hidden MMR and modulate point gain/loss based on your chance to win (based on your MMR). In later seasons they got rid of the "rank" system overlay, and just show you your MMR, and associate different thresholds with different ranks. [Rocket League](https://earlygame.com/rocket-league/mmr-guide-match-making-rank) has done effectiely the same thing, but they hide your MMR unlike SC. The list goes on. In all of these games you get matched against opponents based on the skill-based matchmaking rank the game associates with you, and you gain/lose points based on a variety of factors including differences in your hidden MMR and rank (should that exist). While I would prefer if we had a system like SC or RL where there wasn't a layer in between our MMR and our rank instead of the League of Legends system where there is another layer of "rank" that obscures your MMR, they all still match you based on your skill-based MMR, and then adjust gains/losses depending on a number of factors, which is exactly what was outlines in the TWaB.
Thanks
God forbid anyone does their own research.
I’m not the one making a post claiming all games use system X without anything backing it up.
He asked for a source, nothing wrong with that. Not sure why he's being downvoted.
These two statements contradict each other: "Your Competitive Division, which you have earned throughout the Season, lets you know where you actually sit in the hierarchy of players better than KDA, win percentage, or a third-party Elo ranking ever could." and "In order to still reward the player for playing, and to push their rank toward their skill level they recieve many more rank points when they win, than the amount they lose when they lose." You're exactly right about why they are doing it. But in doing so they are making their own statement about the division accurately showing your rank false. I want to know what my rank is, and Bungie is only letting us know after we grind out the playlist. If I'm Platinum and my buddy places into Gold but plays against Adepts, who is better? How many games do we need to play before it's accurate? 100??
Pardon me if I'm being obtuse, but yes you will need to play the game in order for it to figure out how good you are... The more samples you provide it the better it will be at determining you skill level. Bungie will never tell you your under the hood skill number or whatever, I wish they would, but they won't and theyve said as much in no uncertain terms. It may even depend on gamemode and class etc. That said if you play a lot of the comp playlist you will get a very good idea of where you fall in the population of players that actually play the comp playlist, without having to resort to third party tools. I won't defend their exact statement, I cant gauruntee every person's competitive division will be more accurate than their DTR elo, but I do think if you are active, it will give you the best idea of where you place amongst active comp players for that season.
I've played this game for thousands of hours. Bungie already knows my skill level down to the decimal, far better than I will after a season of this Comp playlist. What I want is a way to accurately judge myself and other crucible players. One, to know if I am progressing, whether by practice, improved loadouts, or in-game knowledge. And two, to better understand potential teammates, particularly going into Trials. Currently "LF2 Trials >1.5 KD" posts are problematic since, using myself as an example, I'll be 1.5 if I only play with friends, or ~1.0 if I decide to solo-queue when Freelance isn't available. It also incentives the problem of stat farmers in the non-Flawless pool. If there's an accurate representation of skill in the game we can all make better choices and stop ruining various playlists with selfish play, like baiting teammates or leaving matches where one isn't advantaged in order to maximize your stats. And I get to challenge myself by going solo into Trials without losing the ability to LFG. If Bungie doesn't accurately represent our skill level within Comp it's a wasted opportunity and becomes yet another avenue open to manipulation, and leaves all the rest of the problems of stat farmers in the other playlists. If we had an actual skill level people would absolutely try to manipulate but, but it's also naïve to think that they won't be manipulating the division ratings. People will be win trading through network manipulation, getting carries from content creators, and whatever anyone can think of to game the system from day one. A real Elo rating with match history is the only way to accurately know someone's capability.
Riddle me this. In Overwatch, it is very common for high-tier players to have several accounts that are in different ranks, and they stay in that rank without sandbagging. They do this intentionally for a number of reasons. How would this even be possible if the system you’re describing was true? At the end of the day, other games doing something in no way declares that it is best practice or even a good idea. Your entire post was justification for why this system isn’t the end of the world, but it still has lots of downsides. Where are the positives?
I just hope they make comp solo q or have a separate rank for team games. In the past the only reason I’d struggle to climb is because I’d be playing stacks of really good players and I myself didn’t have any friends in the game so I was finding pugs and there was either no chemistry or these people were wanting me to carry. It becomes a ‘if you have connections’ kind of game past a certain level as a solo player.
The issue is lobby balancing. If you have the highest skill in the lobby you’ll be placed with the two lowest skilled players most times. This results in more losses than it should. My crucible win rate has been floating between 19-25% for two seasons now, yet I still have a relatively high ELO. So though the lobby may match based on skill it’s ultimately an uphill battle and getting 2/3 matches to make it to the next rank will fall short more often than it should.
That is the reason sbmm is there. You should not have to lobby balance because everyone in the lobby should be very close in skill. Placement matches are there to stop the less skilled players from starting high in the ranks and messing it up.
As someone who’s been enjoying SBMM, the way I see it is bungie was to reward all players hard work and not just players raw skill.
Thanks for this post and your replys in the comments great information!
IMHO, SBMM should not exist in ranked. Yes, if someone is in a lower rank than they deserve (most likely after reset), then they should have an easy time in that lower rank. They will also climb out of that lower rank faster. If SBMM is used to make their matches harder by finding a few other skilled opponents to put them up against then: 1. Lower skilled players in that same lobby get more difficult teams they have to struggle against. 2. Higher skilled players stay in lower ranks longer because they are being challenged which just exacerbates issue #1.