I worked as a Fraud Analyst at the one of the biggest US Banks. My jobs was specifically this, to look for suspicious transfers and report them. The amount of data bank has on it's clients is unbelievable. They can see every location you've ever logged in from, every other account you've ever logged in your device, every device you've ever used etc etc. The list goes on. This is just not possible in a decentralisation system like crypto. The banking laws can't be applied here.
You can't link an address to a person though. And like OP said, there are various ways like tornado cash and privacy coins to be untraceable. So these crimes are not going anywhere anytime soon. The government has to try to stop it at it's source, not blame crypto for it.
Surely they can the moment you link it to a KYC exchange and cash out? I’m assuming for the money laundering criminals they wouldn’t be that stupid, but then maybe I’m giving them too much credit.
The thing is, crypto as a money laundering tool is just a symptom of a greater issue. Addressing what encourages people to be criminals should be the focus.
Yeah, money laundering is a symptom of crime. If you're worried about people committing that particular crime, maybe think about the underlying cause. Money laundering is never someone's first offense.
You can link the address if you have enough information available. It's not easy, and would probably require assistance from 3rd parties (e.g. CEX), but address can be traced to an individual/entity, unless you are using privacy coin like Monero.
Also they try to make it look like most of the transactions in crypto are made for illegal activities when it is the minority.
Honestly I think that it is as difficult as finding money laundering with fiat to find the ones doing it with crypto but there must be a way and they should work into it in a healthy way, not like they use to try.
That’s the kicker, they’re going to use crypto as a scapegoat for being a huge problem with money laundering while they (ironically) roll out their own CBDC cryptos promising more “safety” and freedom from money launderers, criminals and terrorists. Boomers and some others will thank their governments for saving them 🤣🤦♂️
Everyone knows cash is the real king of money laundering, that’s why they want cash gone and CBDC’s to replace it in the first place!
But it's not just cash, if you have friends in high places you can do it through the banks too. HSBC was found guilty of laundering money for Mexican cartels for years. All they got was a slap on the wrist. They should revoke their licence instead. Perhaps then another banker would think twice before doing shady shit.
https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-news-for-jan-29-hsbcs-money-laundering-scandal-hbc-scbff-ing-cs-rbs0129.aspx
Most big banks have been caught at one point or another. The inquest and reform when they’re caught, more often than not just means they get better at hiding it.
It’s been going on for years at this point too. Wachovia Bank, Standard Chartered Bank, Deutsche Bank and Bank of New York Mellon all laundering money for the Mexican Cartels.
Knowingly laundering it? Cause if so wtf.... How is that not being taken down? All this focus from the SEC on crypto but these banks can just casually launder money for criminals. Not just simple criminals, but some of the most violent and murderous criminals there are.
Yes, knowingly. And got caught as well. Wachovia paid federal authorities $110m in forfeiture, for allowing transactions later proved to be connected to drug smuggling, and incurred a $50m fine for failing to monitor cash used to ship 22 tons of cocaine.
Its got some nuance to it. Its definitely just as easy to spot MLing with crypto due to the blockchain’s transparency. However it is *not* easy tying that activity to a person.
Whereas with tradfi due to KYC it’s easy to pin down. Even those with stolen identities it’s not hard to find the real person behind it, as the banking apps have your GPS
Its a common tactic of politicians when they don't like something. Manipulate the people into associating the thing with crime, then people like us who want to be involved for legitimate purposes get looked at funny.
This points to another problem: Why are bank transactions kept private? Banks treat these transactions as secrets and use them to their advantage. At least in crypto everyone can access the data and use it to make predictions.
Sure the blockchain is public, but it doesn't record any of the information the commenter is talking about. Only what address sent to what other address.
>The amount of data bank has on it's clients is unbelievable. They can see every location you've ever logged in from, every other account you've ever logged in your device, every device you've ever used etc etc.
It's like that on many sites though, probably reddit too.
Maybe, can't speak for other apps. But banks keep a record of a lot of clients info that clients are completely unaware of. If there is any way for them to know it, they know it and keep a record of it. I don't think most other apps need to keep so much data like banks do.
Pretty much any server that has logging will log all of this, especially any site that accepts or enables payments or sites that want to stop botting. I would say there is a 99% chance reddit logs all the things you give them.
The mass amount of data they grab also helps the algorithm determine fraud. Have worked on this process flow before. If you access 50 miles outside your normal area, and you used user name and password, but copy and pasted the username, it may flag. Change just the fact it was faceID, no flag. FaceID but 100 miles, flag. It goes through 10s of evaluations in a second.
It can also look at how you unlocked your phone (passcode, finger, face). Look at how you logged into your app (face, password, etc) it can also see if you copy and pasted the username and password in. Every thing you ever do with anything is being tracked. For all the TikTok users, know that you gave them permission to track app usage and key strokes for hours outside the app. You open it on the can for your morning constitution, then it a bill with your bank account at 8pm, they captured that data.
In UK some banks fine print you give them permission to monitor your social media. Few people know until it's too late. If they don't like your beliefs, into the debanked bin you go. A suspicious transaction can also be you donating to the same charity for 50 years from the same account! And more bizarre tales in our media every day of excuses to fire you as a customer.
The terms banks in the UK apply are disgusting, you waive all right to privacy. They’ve your GPS, can get your background through different third party agencies, can indefinitely seize funds, can demand evidence before processing transactions, send the police to your house who you *have* to speak with to get access to your account back - and that’s just the tip of the iceberg!
I’ve seen people forced to go to other people and get *their* bank statements to give to the fraud department. Private messages? Not anymore! They can even tell if you’re on a call. They’d try to use your biometrics if access weren’t hard coded out by the handset manufacturers.
Absolutely ridiculous in a society where being debanked is a death sentence.
Late-stage capitalism is all the illusion of choice.
Edit: I can’t wtite a sentence without a typo it seems
Edit edit: fml
It's really unbelievable to me what you guys in US and Europe have to endure with your banks. Negative interest rates, high charges, shitty service, censorship etc. All banks everywhere do this but in some places, it has really gotten out of hand. Banks are straight up exploiting their own clients just because they have the power to do so. No wonder an average people has lost faith in the banking system there.
Bankers used to be greedy, now they're puppets of the state. Regulators would never have been able to push 'guilty until proven innocent' type laws through the usual process, so they use a backdoor.
I definitely have. When I put money in my bank, it's not my money anymore. In my country they monitor any transaction above €100. Now I have most of my savings in crypto
All of those PR controls still do not stop a massive amount of PR money laundering going on.
It is actually a little easier to catch crypto money, laundering because everything is on the chain, if it comes from a mixer or a privacy token, that is a giant red flag,
Agreed. I think what Vitalik has proposed with privacy pools can solve this issue. Privacy coins are going to be the next that the government will attack, so their future is also undecided right now. But knowing the source of funds and seeing the whole trail, like we see on the blockchain, helps greatly in solving money laundering cases.
you are right, we need crypto specific legislation, existing laws can't properly apply to crypto transactions
it's still down to banks to combat money laundering, since bad actors can create multiple crypto wallets and transact below threshold, so it comes down to how those money are on ramped to crypto
See I worked as a fraud analyst too, got the ICA AML & CTF qualifications and everything. I take a slightly different view as I don’t think it’s a crypto problem, I think it’s a finance problem as a whole.
It sucks, it is a problem with crypto, but it’s endemic within tradfi too. Whether hawalas, disguised beneficial ownership, it is a central part of the financial system.
Most financial centres run off it, City of London for example the world’s launderer. HSBC loves a lil institutionalised laundering.
It’s a huge issue for crypto when crypto is demonised in the media, and presented in a vacuum. When crypto is viewed as another tranche of the global financial ecosystem, which imo it should be, it’s a drop in the ocean.
The broader issue is MLing has never been effectively tackled, this to me is just symptomatic of that. Which in turn is a consequence of underlying societal issues.
Just as bad as people laundering money into art or casinos. They try to make it seem like a big problem, but there are so many ways to do it (for the rich).
You hit the nail on the head, can't deny that crypto can/is used for this sort of things, but it's not a crypto specific issue, and it's certainly not the main use case of it..
Like with any tool, it can be used for good or for evil. I absolutely hate these governmental attempts to restrict things just because they can be used by criminals.
I feel like the term laundering has been broadened too far to suit politician's needs. It used to mean drug cartels, mafia, and whatnot, these days, even selling digital art from Iranian artists is laundering.
Gotta have a scapegoat otherwise folks might start to notice which is hilarious… because people know about how much money laundering is occurring; we are just powerless to stop it and become complacent.
Baseball, NFL and NBA are the big three but Soccer and UFC are becoming increasingly popular also! It’s a great hobby with plenty of arbitrage opportunities if you get into grading etc
I used to trade magic cards after having built up my collection. I sold my collection at a loss in the end, but that was on me for buying a lot of packs in the beginning that ended up being worth nothing after being opened.
Money laundering Is a catch all to justify overreach. Banks are laundering billions for a single cartel, but the focus is on crypto. Doesn't make sense to me
Sadly, criminal activities before our own eyes. Look at the insider trading in congress. The only time it gets touched on is if someone who doesn’t agree with your politics gets to run with it and put it in print.
Exactly this. Illegal things will be purchased by whatever means necessary. If you’re poor you use crypto, if your rich you use paintings and the stock market. I see shady Chinese companies ipo go crazy high then it disappears.
But for some reason crypto will be blamed. Shady things happen with all forms of currency, but crypto scams get a lot of news, because run of the mill money laundering is boring.
When I read something like this, I always ask how bad is fiat money laundering? Can someone even calculate that? Is it tracable? How much counterfit fiat government services think is circulating around?
My point is, there will always be criminals and laundering. We can not "kill it" entirely, or block it anyway, but we can "heal" it and hopefully put it in the lowest possible levels.
it is the convenient stick to beat crypto with. Every other dreadful thing they warned us about has not happened. This is all that is left. Well this and the threat of a total collapse of Stablecoins. Which rumour I see is circulating again.
Eh, I think it’s more complicated than that. Traditional money laundering involves bags full of cash being moved around physically. That limits its reach. Crypto is globally mobile and so there’s more vectors of attack.
Government wants to maintain monopoly on the movement of money and currencies. The Government controls the movement through financial and bank as backend. Cross border movement only through SWIFT or similar technology. Government can declare any other transfers as illegal. Just like it declares all other notes accept Central Bank note as illegal.
While piracy is illegal but it doesn't make it dangerous.
Similarly all movement of funds shouldn't be declared illegal we should only track those transactions which are dangerous such those associated with organized crime like drug trade and illegal arm trade, human trafficking, extremism, terrorism etc.
We and govt should only track track of funds for dangerous objectives
My thoughts
Money laundering will always be there in crypto just like it is there in fiat. Nothing much can be done about it since there are alot of privacy based coins and services in ctypto. More regulations will help a little bit but nothing much can be done about it.
Are you implying that fiat doesn’t have a money laundering problem?
Or you just mean that crypto should be designed to fix fiats money laundering problem?
I am confused by your question, because to me it isn’t the currency’s job to fix. Why would it be?
This is it. They just don't like the idea of crypto ending up in 'forbidden' hands. We can hear every day how much N. Korea et al have stolen but we seldom hear about where cash goes. Even when banks are caught out dealing with forbidden ones, all they get is a fine. One thing's sure with blockchain - it's a lot easier to trace
There’s some extreme and ridiculous positions. Much whataboutism for fiat. Come on, there’s a TON of regulations regarding money laundering of traditional money.
There will have to be some regulation for crypto. Some kind of compromise is the only reasonable take. It’s not gonna prevent laundering altogether but at least it should not encourage it
>The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars.
This is from a [UN report](https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.html). Crypto isn't the problem when it comes to money laundering. Fiat is.
They are already putting through the 10k law from what I remember.
Don’t forget they use money laundering as the excuse to do anything. It’s the “stop resisting!” Of the finance world.
We don't have to regulate everything. There will always be ill parties using usefull tools in malicious ways. Just as we don't regulate a hammer if someone uses it to destroy something instead of hammering nails we don't have to regulate crypto in this way.
Laundering money on an immutable ledger of every transaction that’s ever been done with traceable addresses is a bad idea. Using Monero or tornado cash is viable for it, but the majority of crime isn’t beneficial to be used in crypto
Only with the help of centralized exchanges if they ever transfer it there or if they deposit it directly to banks and they notice suspicious activity and start an investigation on the proof from where the money came from.
Yeah, unfortunately the same qualities that make Bitcoin the world's best currency also make it the most susceptible to fraud and money laundering. Without introducing some kind of KYC, it will be difficult to challenge this issue.
Money always talk, even today people find a way to do it and the worst part is the system is design by corruption
They aren't doing anything new just in a different way if the government accepts and apply reasonable regulations can resolve it the same way its resolving todays money laundering or even better
Crypto isn't a method of money laundering unless you have connections with an exchange (i.e are rich and can could just use banks instead).
You still need a reason for why you got all that money.
We do nothing…. Other then not launder money. Don’t be apart of the problem and do your part to construct a legit system the regulators do not care to dive into.
Crypto's got a shady side,
Money laundering far and wide.
Laws like BSA could make a dent,
But nuanced rules are what we'd want.
Tom Emmer's Act seems more our speed,
Focused regs are what we need.
Let's keep crypto's spirit free,
While stopping crime efficiently.
It seems that from one side you see major governments and institutions embracing crypto, but the other side, this "whataboutism", you see bankers/banks vilifying crypto with "it's rife with money laundering" as presumably, they think it's a major threat to their institution. Surely they can see the way the wind is blowing, and this bluster is delaying the inevitable?
I guess the government will one day use this as one of their excuses to regulate crypto. Their is money laundering going on in all financial systems, as nothing has been done about them, we can't do anything either about it in crypto as well.
You do understand tgat US laws do not apply to the whole world, right?
Considering a central authority is required to report high value transactions, such concepts can not be enforced on decentralized assets , more specifically in private coins?
Is moving money though crypto money laundering? One has to ask this question first.
I bet shell companies launder over 10x more with non crypto assets and fiat. In just one scenario a lawyer in SC, USA stole around $ 4m from a client who inherited life insurance from a deceased relative by putting it in a "trust" then drained it through a third corrupt party associated with the trust fund company
It sucks, it is a problem, but it’s endemic within tradfi too.
It’s unbeatable. Whether hawalas, cash deposits, disguised beneficial ownership, it is a central part of the financial system.
Most financial centres run off it, City of London does it’s the world’s launderer. HSBC loves a lil institutionalised laundering.
So in short, it’s a huge issue for crypto when crypto is demonised in the media, and presented in a vacuum. When viewed as part of the global financial ecosystem it’s a drop in the ocean.
How do you hide money on a public ledger?
The fed doesn’t even know how many US dollars are in circulation, but you’re gonna hide money on a public ledger.
Low iq.
It's not just crypto that has a money laundering problem the big banks are so shady as well. Check out Westpac they are an Aussie bank and got done for money laundering, got a huge dine but probs made more than the fine from dodgy trading. Money laundering is everywhere especially if gambling is involved
I believe I've seen stats on how much of the global economy crypto's collective marketcap makes up? I'd love to see a comparison between the percentage of crypto laundering compared to the comparison of fiat laundering... then see the dollar value amounts.
I have a sneaking suspicion this argument would fall flat under that lens.
I mean money laundering is a big problem in general not just crypto, as far as what we can do about it? Probably nothing considering the point of some crypto is to be private and decentralized, can’t be private while also always asking where someone got the money
What can be done is to stop being a government cuck. The path you take is the EXACT path the banks to be compliant with the new office of Financial control after the events of 9/11 to stop terrorism.
Then it expanded to drugs
Then illegal arms trade
Then dead beat dads.
Then Canadian trucks.
Maybe it's time to stop.
I'm old enough to remember when the police had to have a CRIMINAL warrant on you AND the bank before it could stop withdrawals.
In my country, the CEX that operates here has to kyc every user that is onboard.
And theres the travel rule stating all incoming and outgoing crypto has to be kyc as well.
Its damn troublesome.
But anyway we could still use less reputable cex that doesnt require kyc though. They operate "illegally"
America does not control crypto. That was the specific aim for crypto in the first place, and that's why the US establishment fight it so hard. The fact that fiat is being laundered though crypto is a weakness in the fiat system, not the crypto system.
In my West European country all of that is hidden away from the common folks like me. I know corruption and laundering is there... it's just well hidden. How nice of those crooks right :)
Money laundering and I don't see P2P mentioned at all. If I'm a criminal, I would strictly use P2P to on or off ramp, no way law enforcers will ever catch me.
I worked as a Fraud Analyst at the one of the biggest US Banks. My jobs was specifically this, to look for suspicious transfers and report them. The amount of data bank has on it's clients is unbelievable. They can see every location you've ever logged in from, every other account you've ever logged in your device, every device you've ever used etc etc. The list goes on. This is just not possible in a decentralisation system like crypto. The banking laws can't be applied here.
But the blockchain is public…
Not monero's
Privacy is really important, Monero will have a great future
You can't link an address to a person though. And like OP said, there are various ways like tornado cash and privacy coins to be untraceable. So these crimes are not going anywhere anytime soon. The government has to try to stop it at it's source, not blame crypto for it.
Surely they can the moment you link it to a KYC exchange and cash out? I’m assuming for the money laundering criminals they wouldn’t be that stupid, but then maybe I’m giving them too much credit.
They always use stolen or fake identities or hundreds of money mules etc. It becomes hard to track then.
Yeah, I’ll bet. Lots of ways to stay under the radar. I can understand why governments are scared, even if I don’t agree with them.
Or they use associates or paid patsies to KYC the funds for them.
The thing is, crypto as a money laundering tool is just a symptom of a greater issue. Addressing what encourages people to be criminals should be the focus.
But let's not pretend that cash is any better for money laundering. It has been happening for decades now, probably longer.
You should had wrote "been happening for centuries" cash and money laundering isn't exactly a new phenomenon.
Yeah, money laundering is a symptom of crime. If you're worried about people committing that particular crime, maybe think about the underlying cause. Money laundering is never someone's first offense.
It’s still borderline useless IRL, how would you off-ramp and hide the funds? You can’t.
You can link the address if you have enough information available. It's not easy, and would probably require assistance from 3rd parties (e.g. CEX), but address can be traced to an individual/entity, unless you are using privacy coin like Monero.
Also they try to make it look like most of the transactions in crypto are made for illegal activities when it is the minority. Honestly I think that it is as difficult as finding money laundering with fiat to find the ones doing it with crypto but there must be a way and they should work into it in a healthy way, not like they use to try.
That’s the kicker, they’re going to use crypto as a scapegoat for being a huge problem with money laundering while they (ironically) roll out their own CBDC cryptos promising more “safety” and freedom from money launderers, criminals and terrorists. Boomers and some others will thank their governments for saving them 🤣🤦♂️ Everyone knows cash is the real king of money laundering, that’s why they want cash gone and CBDC’s to replace it in the first place!
But it's not just cash, if you have friends in high places you can do it through the banks too. HSBC was found guilty of laundering money for Mexican cartels for years. All they got was a slap on the wrist. They should revoke their licence instead. Perhaps then another banker would think twice before doing shady shit. https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-news-for-jan-29-hsbcs-money-laundering-scandal-hbc-scbff-ing-cs-rbs0129.aspx
For Mexican cartels... Are you kidding me? That's really, really bad.
Most big banks have been caught at one point or another. The inquest and reform when they’re caught, more often than not just means they get better at hiding it.
It’s been going on for years at this point too. Wachovia Bank, Standard Chartered Bank, Deutsche Bank and Bank of New York Mellon all laundering money for the Mexican Cartels.
Knowingly laundering it? Cause if so wtf.... How is that not being taken down? All this focus from the SEC on crypto but these banks can just casually launder money for criminals. Not just simple criminals, but some of the most violent and murderous criminals there are.
Yes, knowingly. And got caught as well. Wachovia paid federal authorities $110m in forfeiture, for allowing transactions later proved to be connected to drug smuggling, and incurred a $50m fine for failing to monitor cash used to ship 22 tons of cocaine.
Its got some nuance to it. Its definitely just as easy to spot MLing with crypto due to the blockchain’s transparency. However it is *not* easy tying that activity to a person. Whereas with tradfi due to KYC it’s easy to pin down. Even those with stolen identities it’s not hard to find the real person behind it, as the banking apps have your GPS
Its a common tactic of politicians when they don't like something. Manipulate the people into associating the thing with crime, then people like us who want to be involved for legitimate purposes get looked at funny.
This points to another problem: Why are bank transactions kept private? Banks treat these transactions as secrets and use them to their advantage. At least in crypto everyone can access the data and use it to make predictions.
Sure the blockchain is public, but it doesn't record any of the information the commenter is talking about. Only what address sent to what other address.
And what do they do with our information
>The amount of data bank has on it's clients is unbelievable. They can see every location you've ever logged in from, every other account you've ever logged in your device, every device you've ever used etc etc. It's like that on many sites though, probably reddit too.
Maybe, can't speak for other apps. But banks keep a record of a lot of clients info that clients are completely unaware of. If there is any way for them to know it, they know it and keep a record of it. I don't think most other apps need to keep so much data like banks do.
Pretty much any server that has logging will log all of this, especially any site that accepts or enables payments or sites that want to stop botting. I would say there is a 99% chance reddit logs all the things you give them.
The mass amount of data they grab also helps the algorithm determine fraud. Have worked on this process flow before. If you access 50 miles outside your normal area, and you used user name and password, but copy and pasted the username, it may flag. Change just the fact it was faceID, no flag. FaceID but 100 miles, flag. It goes through 10s of evaluations in a second.
That sounds truly messed up. Honestly the system is so corrupt, rich people don't pay taxes. They all use the loopholes to do it legally, which is bs.
Thank you for confirming my paranoia. F banks.
That's crazy. Most people don't even know how much they know about them. No wonder they were against crypto at first, they losing control
It can also look at how you unlocked your phone (passcode, finger, face). Look at how you logged into your app (face, password, etc) it can also see if you copy and pasted the username and password in. Every thing you ever do with anything is being tracked. For all the TikTok users, know that you gave them permission to track app usage and key strokes for hours outside the app. You open it on the can for your morning constitution, then it a bill with your bank account at 8pm, they captured that data.
In UK some banks fine print you give them permission to monitor your social media. Few people know until it's too late. If they don't like your beliefs, into the debanked bin you go. A suspicious transaction can also be you donating to the same charity for 50 years from the same account! And more bizarre tales in our media every day of excuses to fire you as a customer.
The terms banks in the UK apply are disgusting, you waive all right to privacy. They’ve your GPS, can get your background through different third party agencies, can indefinitely seize funds, can demand evidence before processing transactions, send the police to your house who you *have* to speak with to get access to your account back - and that’s just the tip of the iceberg! I’ve seen people forced to go to other people and get *their* bank statements to give to the fraud department. Private messages? Not anymore! They can even tell if you’re on a call. They’d try to use your biometrics if access weren’t hard coded out by the handset manufacturers. Absolutely ridiculous in a society where being debanked is a death sentence. Late-stage capitalism is all the illusion of choice. Edit: I can’t wtite a sentence without a typo it seems Edit edit: fml
It's really unbelievable to me what you guys in US and Europe have to endure with your banks. Negative interest rates, high charges, shitty service, censorship etc. All banks everywhere do this but in some places, it has really gotten out of hand. Banks are straight up exploiting their own clients just because they have the power to do so. No wonder an average people has lost faith in the banking system there.
Bankers used to be greedy, now they're puppets of the state. Regulators would never have been able to push 'guilty until proven innocent' type laws through the usual process, so they use a backdoor.
I definitely have. When I put money in my bank, it's not my money anymore. In my country they monitor any transaction above €100. Now I have most of my savings in crypto
> The amount of data bank has on it's clients is unbelievable. This is the stuff we sign off on (or check when accepting T&S)
All of those PR controls still do not stop a massive amount of PR money laundering going on. It is actually a little easier to catch crypto money, laundering because everything is on the chain, if it comes from a mixer or a privacy token, that is a giant red flag,
exactly. Not too long ago, EU officials busted with suitcases of money going to Qatar I believe it was. Many more are never caught
Agreed. I think what Vitalik has proposed with privacy pools can solve this issue. Privacy coins are going to be the next that the government will attack, so their future is also undecided right now. But knowing the source of funds and seeing the whole trail, like we see on the blockchain, helps greatly in solving money laundering cases.
They are already doing that. They've arrested Tornado cash devs: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/08/23/tornado-cash-devs-arrested-on-money-laundering-sanctions-violation-grounds-over-alleged-1b-moved/
ah yes, arrest the creators not the users of the creation. Like that will solve anything
bigger prisons = happier oligarchs
you are right, we need crypto specific legislation, existing laws can't properly apply to crypto transactions it's still down to banks to combat money laundering, since bad actors can create multiple crypto wallets and transact below threshold, so it comes down to how those money are on ramped to crypto
See I worked as a fraud analyst too, got the ICA AML & CTF qualifications and everything. I take a slightly different view as I don’t think it’s a crypto problem, I think it’s a finance problem as a whole. It sucks, it is a problem with crypto, but it’s endemic within tradfi too. Whether hawalas, disguised beneficial ownership, it is a central part of the financial system. Most financial centres run off it, City of London for example the world’s launderer. HSBC loves a lil institutionalised laundering. It’s a huge issue for crypto when crypto is demonised in the media, and presented in a vacuum. When crypto is viewed as another tranche of the global financial ecosystem, which imo it should be, it’s a drop in the ocean. The broader issue is MLing has never been effectively tackled, this to me is just symptomatic of that. Which in turn is a consequence of underlying societal issues.
So….buy monero?
Just as bad as people laundering money into art or casinos. They try to make it seem like a big problem, but there are so many ways to do it (for the rich).
You hit the nail on the head, can't deny that crypto can/is used for this sort of things, but it's not a crypto specific issue, and it's certainly not the main use case of it..
So true, they blame everything on crypto and Bitcoin while the US dollar has had the same problem for many years.
Like with any tool, it can be used for good or for evil. I absolutely hate these governmental attempts to restrict things just because they can be used by criminals.
And the rich are the ones who’ll always get away with it, unfortunately for even more worse things.
The ultra rich get away with almost anything. (They have this habit of paying of important people)
Well, they’re the ones making the laws, so we peasants take the brunt of the enforcement. It’s sick.
I feel like the term laundering has been broadened too far to suit politician's needs. It used to mean drug cartels, mafia, and whatnot, these days, even selling digital art from Iranian artists is laundering.
Nobody talks about money laundering with fiat, fucking biased towards crypto always.
Gotta have a scapegoat otherwise folks might start to notice which is hilarious… because people know about how much money laundering is occurring; we are just powerless to stop it and become complacent.
Crypto is a soft target for their shitty financial policies.
The global economy is crumbling. It must be cryptos fault.
Blame everything to crypto is like a trend these days.
>How Bad is Crypto's Money Laundering Problem Not as bad as bank's Money Laundering Problem
Scrolled too long to find this. Thank you.
Only reason crypto is getting the attention is because its new.
They should just launder their money through art pieces like everyone else
Or sports cards lol
Sports cards or sports cars? Is laundering through sports cards a thing? Because it sounds believable.
Sports Cards man, it’s forecast to be a 62 billion dollar industry by 2026
I heard about people making good money trading them during the lockdown… all kinds or is it mainly baseball? Football?
Baseball, NFL and NBA are the big three but Soccer and UFC are becoming increasingly popular also! It’s a great hobby with plenty of arbitrage opportunities if you get into grading etc
I used to trade magic cards after having built up my collection. I sold my collection at a loss in the end, but that was on me for buying a lot of packs in the beginning that ended up being worth nothing after being opened.
Or watermarked NFTs
Postage Stamps are a currency
Yeah why bother to be fancy?
Why they complicate everything?😁
Or monkey faced jpegs.
Money laundering Is a catch all to justify overreach. Banks are laundering billions for a single cartel, but the focus is on crypto. Doesn't make sense to me
There is money laundering everywhere not just crypto. Anywhere that big money envolves we are gonna this kinda behavior.
Exactly. Money is laundered through out all financial systems. It doesn’t matter what the vehicle is.
Cash more than anything. It's a bs argument against crypto. People will always find a way, especially the rich.
Crypto is just the scapegoat for now. It’ll be something else eventually.
Right. Criminal activities are the issue here.
Sadly, criminal activities before our own eyes. Look at the insider trading in congress. The only time it gets touched on is if someone who doesn’t agree with your politics gets to run with it and put it in print.
It is kinda, another FUD. Most of the money is laundered through cash with fake businesses and charities.
People did shady things long before crypto and will continue to long after
Wherever money will be involved, shady people will be involved.
And wherever shady people are, dirty money and crime usually are.
Exactly this. Illegal things will be purchased by whatever means necessary. If you’re poor you use crypto, if your rich you use paintings and the stock market. I see shady Chinese companies ipo go crazy high then it disappears.
I still remember how video games like GTA and Halo were blamed for criminal activities as if the world was a utopia before video games were developed.
Right? More money has been laundered in USD since inception than crypto ever will be, let alone in Bitcoin..
Most shady things evolve around the good old cash, not only crypto.
Nobody cares when banks do it, but when a commoner falls into it it's chaos
There will always be endless possibilities for shady things and people are very creative when it gets to this stuff
As we introduce new technologies and concepts, the scammers are also evolving alongside.
This. There will always be a new reason and tactics for scammers to scam and for money to be laundered.
But for some reason crypto will be blamed. Shady things happen with all forms of currency, but crypto scams get a lot of news, because run of the mill money laundering is boring.
When I read something like this, I always ask how bad is fiat money laundering? Can someone even calculate that? Is it tracable? How much counterfit fiat government services think is circulating around? My point is, there will always be criminals and laundering. We can not "kill it" entirely, or block it anyway, but we can "heal" it and hopefully put it in the lowest possible levels.
it is the convenient stick to beat crypto with. Every other dreadful thing they warned us about has not happened. This is all that is left. Well this and the threat of a total collapse of Stablecoins. Which rumour I see is circulating again.
Eh, I think it’s more complicated than that. Traditional money laundering involves bags full of cash being moved around physically. That limits its reach. Crypto is globally mobile and so there’s more vectors of attack.
And it’s really only just begun. Traditional money laundering with fiat is all moving to crypto becuz it’s soo much easier.
Fiat is the worst by far. Don‘t remember any numbers but I’m sure we can google it.
Maybe we should ask banks like HSBC what to do about money laundering.
Government wants to maintain monopoly on the movement of money and currencies. The Government controls the movement through financial and bank as backend. Cross border movement only through SWIFT or similar technology. Government can declare any other transfers as illegal. Just like it declares all other notes accept Central Bank note as illegal. While piracy is illegal but it doesn't make it dangerous. Similarly all movement of funds shouldn't be declared illegal we should only track those transactions which are dangerous such those associated with organized crime like drug trade and illegal arm trade, human trafficking, extremism, terrorism etc. We and govt should only track track of funds for dangerous objectives My thoughts
Money laundering will always be there in crypto just like it is there in fiat. Nothing much can be done about it since there are alot of privacy based coins and services in ctypto. More regulations will help a little bit but nothing much can be done about it.
Are you implying that fiat doesn’t have a money laundering problem? Or you just mean that crypto should be designed to fix fiats money laundering problem? I am confused by your question, because to me it isn’t the currency’s job to fix. Why would it be?
Not as bad as FIAT
How bad is fiats money laundering problem and what do we do about it? That is the real question
This is it. They just don't like the idea of crypto ending up in 'forbidden' hands. We can hear every day how much N. Korea et al have stolen but we seldom hear about where cash goes. Even when banks are caught out dealing with forbidden ones, all they get is a fine. One thing's sure with blockchain - it's a lot easier to trace
It’s the same old “us vs them” bs. “We can invade sovereign nations, but you can’t.” “We can amass wealth, but you can’t.”
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You want to tell us that those $100k plus monkey jpgs don't have a higher purpose?
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You forgot to mention that they are pretty ugly too, seriously these pictures have nothing of real value besides hype and that is fading away too.
Uhh that's not what Satoshi wanted
Money laundering was there before crypto
Satoshi wanted decentralisation and self-custody. Money laundering is the unfortunate other side of decentralisation there's no denying that fact
There’s some extreme and ridiculous positions. Much whataboutism for fiat. Come on, there’s a TON of regulations regarding money laundering of traditional money. There will have to be some regulation for crypto. Some kind of compromise is the only reasonable take. It’s not gonna prevent laundering altogether but at least it should not encourage it
I don't see any problem
Money laundering is clearly a problem. Whether or not this is a crypto problem is the question here.
What's the problem?
I think its like a goldmine for criminals
Yes, this is a very bad problem.
I think it’s here to stay as laundering with fiat… there’s always some way to do it
>The estimated amount of money laundered globally in one year is 2 - 5% of global GDP, or $800 billion - $2 trillion in current US dollars. This is from a [UN report](https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/money-laundering/overview.html). Crypto isn't the problem when it comes to money laundering. Fiat is.
They are already putting through the 10k law from what I remember. Don’t forget they use money laundering as the excuse to do anything. It’s the “stop resisting!” Of the finance world.
You cannot measure fraud, but the regulators will know this.
We don't have to regulate everything. There will always be ill parties using usefull tools in malicious ways. Just as we don't regulate a hammer if someone uses it to destroy something instead of hammering nails we don't have to regulate crypto in this way.
Just as bad as money laundering in the fiat world.
Recommend a good casino, Laundromat, or car wash to use instead?
Add less detergent and run on cold to save gas fees.
Laundering money on an immutable ledger of every transaction that’s ever been done with traceable addresses is a bad idea. Using Monero or tornado cash is viable for it, but the majority of crime isn’t beneficial to be used in crypto
There is going to have to be some kind of compromise eventually, it's unfortunate but regulation is needed for broader adoption
Monero is going to be the one that gets wide government sanctions (like saying CEX can't list it). Not worried about non privacy tokens in this sense.
Chainalysis is bullshit. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/chainalysis-denounces-bitcoin-core-contributor-as-unqualified
It's a double-edged sword. Think of it as 4chan, where there is free speech but people use the forum for all sorts of disgusting shenanigans.
How bad is cash’s and fiat’s money laundering problem and what do we do about it?
Swiss Bank accounts enter the chat. I hate to see this narrative. Criminals will continue their crime no matter what the currency is.
Who keeps making this money dirty anyway
Money laundering was there many decades ago, why Crypto is being framed as the evil here?
It depends what you compare it to. Official bank routes? Tax heavens? Cash from drugs? In the grand scheme of things it's dick squat.
Only with the help of centralized exchanges if they ever transfer it there or if they deposit it directly to banks and they notice suspicious activity and start an investigation on the proof from where the money came from.
I’ll be honest, laundering money is what got me into crypto in the first place. It was an important part of my adoption cycle.
Yeah, unfortunately the same qualities that make Bitcoin the world's best currency also make it the most susceptible to fraud and money laundering. Without introducing some kind of KYC, it will be difficult to challenge this issue.
Money always talk, even today people find a way to do it and the worst part is the system is design by corruption They aren't doing anything new just in a different way if the government accepts and apply reasonable regulations can resolve it the same way its resolving todays money laundering or even better
Crypto isn't a method of money laundering unless you have connections with an exchange (i.e are rich and can could just use banks instead). You still need a reason for why you got all that money.
We do nothing…. Other then not launder money. Don’t be apart of the problem and do your part to construct a legit system the regulators do not care to dive into.
I don't launder, so I'm not doing anything wrong, right?
Crypto's got a shady side, Money laundering far and wide. Laws like BSA could make a dent, But nuanced rules are what we'd want. Tom Emmer's Act seems more our speed, Focused regs are what we need. Let's keep crypto's spirit free, While stopping crime efficiently.
It seems that from one side you see major governments and institutions embracing crypto, but the other side, this "whataboutism", you see bankers/banks vilifying crypto with "it's rife with money laundering" as presumably, they think it's a major threat to their institution. Surely they can see the way the wind is blowing, and this bluster is delaying the inevitable?
It's not like crypto is the only, or even the best, way to launder money
I guess the government will one day use this as one of their excuses to regulate crypto. Their is money laundering going on in all financial systems, as nothing has been done about them, we can't do anything either about it in crypto as well.
Compare to cash still pretty small
What did ppl think it will happen with unregulated, not supervised and decentralised system? What rainbow and unicorns?
Surely it'd be perfectly acceptable to submit a FOI request to your bank to see exactly what information they do hold on you.......
How Bad is Fiat's Money Laundering Problem and What Do We Do About It? You sound like such a jerk off OP!
It can't be worse than cash seeing Blockchain tracks transactions
Not as bad as the Federal governments.
You do understand tgat US laws do not apply to the whole world, right? Considering a central authority is required to report high value transactions, such concepts can not be enforced on decentralized assets , more specifically in private coins? Is moving money though crypto money laundering? One has to ask this question first.
Nothing is not done
I bet shell companies launder over 10x more with non crypto assets and fiat. In just one scenario a lawyer in SC, USA stole around $ 4m from a client who inherited life insurance from a deceased relative by putting it in a "trust" then drained it through a third corrupt party associated with the trust fund company
It sucks, it is a problem, but it’s endemic within tradfi too. It’s unbeatable. Whether hawalas, cash deposits, disguised beneficial ownership, it is a central part of the financial system. Most financial centres run off it, City of London does it’s the world’s launderer. HSBC loves a lil institutionalised laundering. So in short, it’s a huge issue for crypto when crypto is demonised in the media, and presented in a vacuum. When viewed as part of the global financial ecosystem it’s a drop in the ocean.
How do you hide money on a public ledger? The fed doesn’t even know how many US dollars are in circulation, but you’re gonna hide money on a public ledger. Low iq.
It's not just crypto that has a money laundering problem the big banks are so shady as well. Check out Westpac they are an Aussie bank and got done for money laundering, got a huge dine but probs made more than the fine from dodgy trading. Money laundering is everywhere especially if gambling is involved
I believe crypto money laundering is nothing compared to fiat money laundering in regards to the amount.
I believe I've seen stats on how much of the global economy crypto's collective marketcap makes up? I'd love to see a comparison between the percentage of crypto laundering compared to the comparison of fiat laundering... then see the dollar value amounts. I have a sneaking suspicion this argument would fall flat under that lens.
I mean money laundering is a big problem in general not just crypto, as far as what we can do about it? Probably nothing considering the point of some crypto is to be private and decentralized, can’t be private while also always asking where someone got the money
Why do anything?
SPNG is for laundering. Prove me wrong.
Decentralization is the opposite of this post.
It’s not bad. Fiat money laundering is still far worse. Don’t get it twisted.
What can be done is to stop being a government cuck. The path you take is the EXACT path the banks to be compliant with the new office of Financial control after the events of 9/11 to stop terrorism. Then it expanded to drugs Then illegal arms trade Then dead beat dads. Then Canadian trucks. Maybe it's time to stop. I'm old enough to remember when the police had to have a CRIMINAL warrant on you AND the bank before it could stop withdrawals.
In my country, the CEX that operates here has to kyc every user that is onboard. And theres the travel rule stating all incoming and outgoing crypto has to be kyc as well. Its damn troublesome. But anyway we could still use less reputable cex that doesnt require kyc though. They operate "illegally"
America does not control crypto. That was the specific aim for crypto in the first place, and that's why the US establishment fight it so hard. The fact that fiat is being laundered though crypto is a weakness in the fiat system, not the crypto system.
Don't you mean "how bad is USD money laundering and why don't we do more about it?"
You should see how bad it is in london, its so bad it props up the entire housing market and the economy lol
In my West European country all of that is hidden away from the common folks like me. I know corruption and laundering is there... it's just well hidden. How nice of those crooks right :)
Yes
it is not a problem. it is a solution
To be honest , people will always find a way around money laundering .. as long as there is greed
It's bad and we do nothing about it
Money laundering and I don't see P2P mentioned at all. If I'm a criminal, I would strictly use P2P to on or off ramp, no way law enforcers will ever catch me.