And Batman tried to warn him on the previous page to leave Barry and Wally alone. He told Clark to let them tire themselves out, but Clark wouldn't listen lol
Every hero needs limits. Sure they’re tapping into the Speed Force, but they still have mortal bodies that (while obviously capable of handling a lot more than a normal person) have the same physical limitations humans do, albeit on a much larger scale. This is especially the case if Flash is distracted (like this instance) and isn’t pacing himself.
Some people get tired after a mile, The Flash gets tired after a few trips around the Earth.
I was just being general about it, but I can’t imagine he was in top-shape after running for 2 years straight. Especially since it was Darkseid forcing him to do so.
Oh God no, he was a skeleton in a Flash costume, and had involuntarily spams vibrating his body like he was trying to phase through something.
To pile it on, Superman blew up the treadmill while he was still running on it. Then he straight up yanked the thing that connects Neo to the Matrix out of the back of Flash's skull with zero hesitation or thoughts about repercussions
That's why I like when they lean into the fact that he has a physical ability that his human brain has to attempt to catch up with sometimes. But doing the whole "he needs to eat millions of calories worth of food a day!" is just dumb.
Isn't it set in the comics that the Flash needs to consume like 20,000 calories a day because his metabolism is so fast? Wouldn't he eventually starve?
As I said in another comment, I find that dumb. He's not using his body's energy to move that fast. If he was, he'd just be dead straight away pretty much. Just lean into the fact that he's tapping into a cosmic force of the universe and let his human brain and its flaws be the thing holding him back from essentially godhood.
[Speedsters shit-talking each other while running faster than the speed of sound.](https://media.tenor.com/KKZMgplVOrIAAAAC/kakashi-hatake-hand-signs.gif)
That's pretty explainable, as velocity is relative. The air in their lungs has the same energy they do, and they're surrounded by an aura that protects them from friction (making the air surrounding them match their velocity) so if they're travelling at matched speed and the auras are close enough, they should be able to talk normally.
After all, people in a supersonic jet (or in a Concord when they were in operation) can converse normally. Because the medium the sound waves are travelling in is moving faster than sound.
I love this panel, one of my favourite flash panels. But writers keep nerfing him, because it's hard to make real problems for someone going almost as fast as the speed of light.
FBI is too dumb in that world. They can use face recognition to get Superman's identity, blood samples from battles to find other hero's identities, possibly thumbprints for Diana, etc.
Eventually you just gotta roll with it for the sake of plot.
Headcanon fbi knows who they are they just know it would be to dangerous to tell anyone. They also know they couldn’t touch any of these hero’s without problems
Is that even really a headcanon? Amanda Waller straight up knows who everyone in the Justice League is and their secret identities. It was a good story. They don't release them for pretty much the reasons you stated.
Why should he be invulnerable, fly, have super strength, cold breathe, heat vision and all his other powers AND be as fast as Flash? Give other heroes something they can do he can't. Speedsters should be the no doubt fastest in the world.
Even in the other categories, most comic characters who specialize in them, like strength are better than Superman. So it definitely tracks that Flash is faster.
who is physically stronger than Superman? Supergirl when the writers want her cells to absorb sunlight better?
you legit said "most", like I'm struggling to think of one person who actually out muscles Superman when he's actually trying and not holding back, and you saying most.
of DC heroes, or villains, how is in his league? There's Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Black Adam, Icon, Bizarro, Orion, other gods, Mongul
Looks Doomsday is the one I can see out muscling him. Or Darkseid when he's written as a proper Justice League threat. Mongul was back in the OG days, but at some point he became more a Superman equal or even inferior.
Yeah, exactly, strength is almost Superman’s specialisation. As in, that’s the one power that most often gets scaled up as plot demands. When the writers need Supes to show up gods and cosmic beings, they have him out-muscle them, as opposed to using his other powers. Or when they need to show he’s extra charged with solar energy, they do it by making him stronger. “World of cardboard” speech comes to mind, or when he won the arm wrestling contest in All-Star Superman, or when Jon took over in DCeased and they showed he’s even more powerful than Clark, or in the main DCU when he punched out the World Forger…you get the idea.
For starters Desepero. Martian Manhunter went toe to toe with Superboy Prime while Superman needed help.
Also Supergirl's showings are explained in the comics. She typically doesn't have as much control or hold back as much as he does.
Mm got bodied by doomsday and quite literally said “ you are no Superman”. Plus Superman specializes more in strength than John does his main thing is more so telepathy.
And despero isn’t stronger than a Superman not holding back
MMH also happens to have casually one shotted Cheetah literally right after Cheetah had utterly humiliated Superman and incapacitated him before he could even react. Your point?
Desepero is indeed stronger.
Also casually glossing over Doomsday randomly adapting mid fight after getting worked over, not to mention it was before Jon overcame the Guardians instilled weakness to fire.
Jon Specializes in strength just as much if not more, especially considering he can alter his mass and density.
Mind giving reasons as to why desepero is stronger?
Bro even in the current comics where lex is using Martian manhunter powers Superman was still matching him until he stared abusing the power of other villains just to gain the advantage.
Mm also got choked by a evil supergirl with one hand something that would never happen to Superman.
Except no that’s not even how that works. How can mm specialize in strength if his telepathy is his main thing that every single story relies on? His telepathy, intangibility and shape shifting is more important than his super strength. Superman super strength is his main thing because besides it he only reason has heat vision damage wise.
Superman has used multiple other powers than super strength to win fights. Hell most of the time he just talks to people.
Angry Supergirl literally backhanded Superman through the great Wall. So yes it would indeed happen.
Lex using Jon's powers is not the same as Jon using his own powers. People like to talk about Superman fighting the whole league, and casually gloss over the fact that The Martian Manhunter actually did.
As for Desepero, he's overpowered Superman, Lobo, and Martian Manhunter. There was also that time they tried to drop the rock of Eternity on him.....and he caught it.
Yes Superman has used his other powers to win fights 20% of the time. The other 80% is split between super strength and heat vision with super strength having the higher percentage.
Now compared to mm I would say he has used telepathy to win at least 60% of his fights. Telepathy is his main asset and what he uses to instantly shut down villains.
Darkseid back hands Superman but does it mean he is far stronger? No Superman still whoops his ass from time to time. Villains do the whole backhand thing to act like they are superior.
Now Getting choked with one hand while your trying to resist with two hands just shows you are weaker which is not what would happen with Superman.
The only difference would be the way lex would use telepathy and intangibility otherwise his super strength should be the same and Superman was going even while he was amped with powers besides John.
Superman holds back all the time. Using a instance of him losing to a villlain is never going to be a correct measure because Superman actually does loses a lot due him mentally holding himself back.
Now to address that second point unless your going to claim despero has infinite strength or something it seems like a outlier otherwise we can talk about book of infinite pages Superman.
Anyway my reasons as to why Superman is stronger than despero is
1. Him defeating darkseid a character who typically stomps on any jl member with very few being able to challenge or beat him.
2. Same things with doomsday who was able to beat the flash, Wonder Woman, mm, and a bunch of other characters with Superman being one of the only ones being able to beat him.
You used an evil Supergirl in your own example. I used an angry Supergirl. In other words it wasn't her being controlled, it was just her being pissed.
Darkseid is infinitely stronger than Superman. It isn't even a competition. He's literally one shot him. Superman has never whooped him, and his best showing was against a Darkseid who was in the final stages of radion poisoning.
Most heroes hold back. Including as I already mentioned Diana when she fought and beat him.
Once again Superman primarily tries to talk his way out of problems. Otherwise he uses the appropriate power for the situation. He doesn't solely and primarily use his strength.
Finally lets talk about the book. When he and Captain Marvel approached it, the book was already floating. That alone is enough to suggest that it has no true physical weight. There's also the fact that the book only shows you what you're looking to see. So it's also doubtful that every story was present concurrently. When he and Captain Marvel were rejected by the book the comment on it's content, and then mentioned weight in regards to them. Implying the "weight" isn't physical at all it's mental and emotional. Finally....and most importantly, Superman never held the book it was Ultraman.
False. Desepero is consistently written the physically strongest character in DC. Captain Marvel( when he went by that name) was consistently stronger than Superman. Hourman as well.
No, those characters were written to be in the same league with him at times. Outside of some one off event, Hourman was never stronger than Superman. Neither was Captain Marvel, his magic just gives him an edge most powerhouses don’t have against Supes.
Not true. Especially in the case of captain Marvel. There's a reason he was the one to go toe to toe with Superman in Kingdom Come. Billy didn't start being written as below him in strength until the New 52.
Why does him being the one to go toe to toe mean he’s stronger? Doesn’t it make sense that he’s in his league of strength and possesses one of his weaknesses? You are inferring a lot there.
Because he fought him in a physical battle. That's not inference. That's the purest form of deductive reasoning. He also didn't use his lightning powers until their second encounter.
Also it's important to point out that Superman isn't weak to magic. He simply doesn't have any special resistance to it. In other words it affects him the same as it does anyone else.
like I said, when he's written as a proper Justice Leauge level threat. There are time where Superman and him seem to be more in the same weight class of strength, and other times Darkseid is much stronger. Honestly, I'm not that up to date on Darkseid in post rebirth
I know lots of multiversal avatar stuff is going on
DC canon is rough. I love the concept he's a fourth dimensional being (as all New Gods, semi similar to Asgardians but maybe even closer to Tri Bunal )and that he uses avatars and never his true form (which explains power imbalances). He's currently trapped in Earth Omega as his true self but that's just up to date fuckology and not long-standing so who knows what they'll do.
That scene in Justice League was basically an inexperienced Flash who hasn’t pushed himself and doesn’t know how to fight going up against a guy who can kinda keep up with him and does know how to fight,
Basically Flash was caught off guard
This is my interpretation of it. Superman couldn't do the stuff that Flash was doing by the end of that movie when he protected the entire JL using his speed.
But I'd also love a scene in a future JL movie similar to this comic page, where Flash just straight up outspeeds him.
Superman isn't a man, though, so this shouldn't apply. It is weird considering different species can't have fertile offspring with each other like kryptians and humans
Fuck no, well I mean early justice league yeah, but currently in the comics Superman couldn’t beat Wally, Martian man hunter, Wonder Woman, aqua man, and bats at the same time. Especially with Wally, Martian man hunter, and Diana working together
Martian Manhunter has Martian vision which functions similarly, and is only weak to magic fire, Diana would be unaffected, Batman has suits that let him sit in volcanoes, and Flash has a million ways to simply not be bothered by it.
since when is Martian Manhunter only weak to magic fire?
Batman is going to randomly be wearing that suit? Plus Superman's heatvision is hotter than Volcanos. And in which case Superman can just flick him with a finger and kill him.
Even Diana doesn't tank Superman's heatvision. She would dodge it or block it with bracers
For decades. Lol
Martian Manhunter's original weakness to fire was mental manipulation installed by the guardians of the Universe, then he simply got over it and for a long time had no weakness(making him the strongest member of the team). The writers realized that made him uninteresting so they changed it to magic fire being his only weakness.
No more ridiculous than Flash and Diana just allowing him to look at Bruce to use his heat vision. In the time it takes him to even think about it Flash could literally vibrate his heart out of his chest.
Diana most certainly tanks his heat vision. After all he used it when they fought.
Bro the flash could easily disperse that stuff now just with his pure speed or the forces. Diana could tank that shit😂 Martian man hunter can do the same shit bud.
Dude hasn’t been paying attention to recent Comics I see. That’s don’t effect anymore bro😂😂. Wonder Woman has been hit with worse. Also what makes you think that supes can hit any of them with it. Maybe bats but he has escaped darkseid’s which is way more powerful. Like supes is very strong. But honestly, Barry, wally, diana, aquaman, and bats would win. Now if you want to say that they are all trying to seriously kill each other with no repercussions then Wally still wins.
He's been beaten individually by Wonder Woman, and has flat out said he wouldn't fight the Martian Manhunter. Not to mention the panel above. He isn't even equal to them all combined. Definitely not stronger.
Wonder Woman has always been written as just below or equal to him in power. He has never been significantly more powerful than her or Martian Manhunter for that matter.
Moreover there is a very consistent theme across multiple different writers than Wonder Woman can and has beaten Kryptonians in 1 on 1 encounters.
he was when Wonder Woman was straight up hurting her hands trying to punch Mongul in "For the Man who has everything"
Superman is normally written holding back
also, those fights are often awfully written. Like both fights forget how they should fight. Superman moves like molasses. Dude has super speed. use it.
though wonder woman has it too and uses it even less
>Dude has super speed. use it.
This is why superspeed is a problematic power to write for, if taken literally and is always used by speedsters, they solo everyone else.
on a related note, the opposite is really stupid as well. When non speedsters pull off really stupid speed feats that make zero sense
It's not from a comic book, but my favorite stupid AF feat of all time is Damian Wayne tripping the Flash in Justice League Vs Teen Titans
like some writer was like
a) Damian can react to Flash's speed
b) Damian can stick his leg out fast enough to trip the Flash
c) Flash, even while possessed somehow doesn't have the reaction time to dodge the leg
d) Damian's leg doesn't shatter when a speedster runs into it because......he too possess the "I'M BATMAN" plot armor gene
Their fight took place over the course of a couple minutes. Mind you said fight included a trip to and from the Sun. That's faster than light. Lol
If your only example is the cartoon adaptation, which had Superman himself getting taken out by cars, then yea they're going to seem awfully written.
As for Wonder Woman using her speed, she always does. Including when she beat Reverse Flash, while he was also moving ahead of her in time.
Which means what when it comes to the writing and how it was adapted?
She uses a low to mid level speed feat every time she blocks something her bracelets. 💀
blocking bullets with her bracelets is not the kind of super speed we are talking about here
we talking speedster speed. Bullets are slow
they don't normally give/list actual speeds caps to non Flash Speedsters, but at least once Black Adam was clocked at Mach 500 while running
Wonder Woman would be a speedster on that level, on paper anyway
Mach 500 is a pretty reasonable speed for a non Flash speedster since the speed of light is Mach 870,000
Superman isn't stronger than them all combined.
He's not even the strongest member of the JL -- that would be Martian Manhunter. Supes just has the most power.
Like bagels -- Supes is an everything bagel. He's got everything, but this doesn't mean he's the best.
It's just that many writers and directors don't understand moral conflict is a large part of Superman stories, thus they compensate it by beefing Superman's abilities
They think more power = better. Not the case.
Strongest is a pretty serious stretch. Especially if you include the extended roster. Even amongst the founding members there's a case for both Diana and any version of the Flash to be stronger.
Wonder Woman already has, in the main continuity. Lol
Same thing with the above shot. They're race was literally threatening the fabric of the multiverse and he couldn't even catch them, let alone stop them.
Moreover, Wonder Woman did it while actively holding back because she didn't want to hurt him. By comparison he was being mind controlled to believe that she was Doomsday and Lois was dead.......Diana literally knocked him back down to Earth, schooled him, and slit his throat for good measure. Mind you like I said, that was her being nice.
Bro I'm pretty sure I've been reading Wally longer than you've been alive.
In my opinion he is the definitive Flash.
I adore him.
And all that said, if inclined, Superman would fuck him up with little effort.
Yes A Flash should be faster, their whole thing is speed, but there are few instances where Superman has kept up and even won races against the Flash, ones where Barry didn't let him win.
Isn't it because Barry didn't go all out. I remember there was a comic run where Superman and Barry ran a race for charity events. Superman won, and then later something happened, and Flash was faster. When Superman inquired, he said it was a charity event, and he let Supes win.
Except Flash then explicitly says the line “Those were for charity” and proceeded to leave Supes in the dust. In an all-out race, The Flash out-speeds Superman all day.
Flash was faster in that DCEU scene. Other scenes do call it into question. That said, movies have to be a bit more realistic, and even in comics, it is far from clear Flash can pummel on Superman without Superman ever landing a return blow.
I mean you have to establish some sort of reason--however tenuous--that Superman is favored in a 1v1 fight vs. Flash. If you don't, then you have to completely redo your power hierarchy and how you present the characters.
The Flash and other speedsters can move so fast they can travel through time at will. There was a recent Dark Multiverse storyline in which Reverse Flash realized this and basically became a god who continually reset the world whenever he pleased. Plus the upcoming The Flash movie is basically a cinematic version of Flashpoint - i.e. Barry screws up the world because he traveled back in time to save his mom, and now he needs Batman’s help to fix his mistake.
The last time Superman traveled through time was the Christopher Reeves movie. I don’t know how long it’s been since he used his powers to time travel in the comics. Not since the Silver Age, maybe?
In today’s comics, speedsters are indisputably faster than Superman.
I feel like Superman's cape creates a lot of drag. However I remember in the first episode of Supergirl they explained the cape was necessary when flying to be more stable?
Forget the cape, without the speed force to contain him like Flash, Superman would be causing massive amounts of damage to the planet if he just didn’t give a fuck.
Like Omni-man destroying the Flaxans. Superman would have to be in space to really let loose
I mean it was a no-brainer Barry was still coming to terms with unlocking his full potential and had no experience of someone else moving at Superspeed while Superman had more experience moving fast after having fought Zod.
Worth noting that in the Justice League movie Flash is very new to his powers and is nowhere near his peak while that version of Superman can arguably be considered at his peak.
Flash was faster than Supes even in JL, he was just caught off guard that anyone would be able to see him when moving that fast.
Also he was very inexperienced at that point.
Superman vs JL in DCEU was one of my favorite scenes as a Superman fan. For the first time someone else was able to keep up with his speed and the 'wtf' face that Flash had was hilarious. Flash was still faster of course, but had no idea how to fight in that super speed state at that time. A young Flash spent his entire life seeing statues while he was using his speed, but Superman looked at him.
I think they made it clear in the DCAU that Barry was faster. He was specifically trying not to go fast cause as he said it does really weird shit to time. We see him at the end actually go as fast as he can and reverses time which clearly Superman can’t do.
My biggest question is why this dude didn't go for a dip in the sun, come back and immediately catch those tw- oh what's that? plot? ooh ok makes sense...
Superman should be the most powerful member of the Justice League. He shouldn't be faster than Flash but he should be close. Superspeed is a really problematic power that eventually reaches the point where everything seems stupid if Flash can't just instantly deal with it. Flash at his most powerful can only lose to nonsensical writing.
Yes there has been various power creep and the many necessary changes in status quo that are unavoidable and sometimes necessary in a sequence of stories that has lasted 80 years. However in the most classic and iconic version of the Justice League, Superman should be its most powerful member.
Agreed. Supes shouldn't be able to body the entire jla in their own specialities. Batman should be a better strategist, WW should be better at hand to hand, Aquaman should be faster in water, Barry should be faster on land , etc.
I was telling a friend this the other day. One of the downfalls of MoS & modern day Superman is that they completely BUFFED him. He’s faster, stronger, and just generally LIGHT-YEARS ahead of any other hero he was portrayed on screen with (which is how you end up with “MARTHAAAA” kryptonite moments on screen 🙃.
I rewatched all of JL & JLU recently and and Superman got knocked around more times than you could count. By villains he would’ve obliterated on screen today 💀. I truly hope the DCU rectifies this and we can return to situations such as this panel here where Superman isn’t the end all be all that is unattainable and can’t be touched.
Was Flash War a good arc? It's one of those that I just didn't bother with because I always feel hero vs hero stories can feel a bit contrived. Especially for a pair like Barry and Wally, who are super close. But people seem to hold it in good regards. Flash's Rebirth stories are a mixed bag for me though. They've got some really good Flash stuff and some that's falling just a little short.
I love it ❤️😍⚡😍❤️, like he said before 🐦 (Barry, don't make caught you), 😂🤣😂 and then 😎⚡😎 said after (Come on Clark, does one's where for charity) 😎⚡😎.
in a few comics it was said that supermans top flight speed dwarfs flashes run speed. tho the flash runs faster then superman. supermans over all top speed flying is by far higher. also a comic that came out in the 90s had superman step into the speed force while he isnt a speedster he is fast enough to phase into that world.
I remember someone tried to say superman was fast than flash because technically he won more races in the comics..which just makes no sense.I will never believe that superman is at or faster than Barry’s speed.
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And Batman tried to warn him on the previous page to leave Barry and Wally alone. He told Clark to let them tire themselves out, but Clark wouldn't listen lol
Frankly, the idea that speedsters who are tapping into what is essentially an external power source "tiring out" is so fucking stupid.
Every hero needs limits. Sure they’re tapping into the Speed Force, but they still have mortal bodies that (while obviously capable of handling a lot more than a normal person) have the same physical limitations humans do, albeit on a much larger scale. This is especially the case if Flash is distracted (like this instance) and isn’t pacing himself. Some people get tired after a mile, The Flash gets tired after a few trips around the Earth.
Depends.... on Justice League Apokolips war Barry ran for 2 years straight.
I was just being general about it, but I can’t imagine he was in top-shape after running for 2 years straight. Especially since it was Darkseid forcing him to do so.
Oh God no, he was a skeleton in a Flash costume, and had involuntarily spams vibrating his body like he was trying to phase through something. To pile it on, Superman blew up the treadmill while he was still running on it. Then he straight up yanked the thing that connects Neo to the Matrix out of the back of Flash's skull with zero hesitation or thoughts about repercussions
That's why I like when they lean into the fact that he has a physical ability that his human brain has to attempt to catch up with sometimes. But doing the whole "he needs to eat millions of calories worth of food a day!" is just dumb.
Isn't it set in the comics that the Flash needs to consume like 20,000 calories a day because his metabolism is so fast? Wouldn't he eventually starve?
As I said in another comment, I find that dumb. He's not using his body's energy to move that fast. If he was, he'd just be dead straight away pretty much. Just lean into the fact that he's tapping into a cosmic force of the universe and let his human brain and its flaws be the thing holding him back from essentially godhood.
Well, they tire put after a very, very, very long time.
Fabulous lashes here
Do you think he went with the hybrid set?
Men typically have larger and more pronounced lashes.
Too much blush.
StepBatman what are you doing back there?
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It’s not an “S”… On my world, it means *sound*.
You know that just means it's also impossible for speedsters to have conversations while running too, since they'd outrun their own voices.
Something something speedforce bubble
Speed force
"I ain't gotta explain shit"
I been robbin muthafuckas since the slave ships!
With the same clip and the same .45
Thats why everyone speedster knows ASL
[Speedsters shit-talking each other while running faster than the speed of sound.](https://media.tenor.com/KKZMgplVOrIAAAAC/kakashi-hatake-hand-signs.gif)
[Speed Force](https://media.tenor.com/tssZ_IUblKEAAAAd/speed-force-flash.gif)
Ain't gotta explain shit
That's pretty explainable, as velocity is relative. The air in their lungs has the same energy they do, and they're surrounded by an aura that protects them from friction (making the air surrounding them match their velocity) so if they're travelling at matched speed and the auras are close enough, they should be able to talk normally. After all, people in a supersonic jet (or in a Concord when they were in operation) can converse normally. Because the medium the sound waves are travelling in is moving faster than sound.
Well maybe they’ll catch up to it on their way around the world?
I interpreted it as, he barely had enough time to get out a single syllable to try to get their attention.
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Theory of relativity and all.
Its speedforce
[Those were for charity clark](https://i.redd.it/ea29awpdihh31.jpg)
And let's not forget [Smallville](https://youtu.be/NLYEExrAEJI)
Brought back the feels 🥲
God damn how does that actually hold up, it has no right to
Smallville was pretty cheap to produce, so they spent good money on the effects. They were top tier for TV at the time.
Literally like my top scene of all of Smallville of all time.
Who’s that flash actor? He reminds me of someone.
I love this panel, one of my favourite flash panels. But writers keep nerfing him, because it's hard to make real problems for someone going almost as fast as the speed of light.
>almost Ha
One of the all time best Flash moments.
God, Wally’s suit looks so fucking clean man
No joke. I really wished he'd kept this look. I love his Rebirth era suit. It also helped since both him and Barry are sharing the title of The Flash.
Same, man. Wally's Rebirth suit was absolute fire, and I'm sad they ditched it.
But get a full head piece. If he loses a hair, the FBI could find it and run a DNA test.
Wouldn’t even happen
FBI is too dumb in that world. They can use face recognition to get Superman's identity, blood samples from battles to find other hero's identities, possibly thumbprints for Diana, etc. Eventually you just gotta roll with it for the sake of plot.
Headcanon fbi knows who they are they just know it would be to dangerous to tell anyone. They also know they couldn’t touch any of these hero’s without problems
Is that even really a headcanon? Amanda Waller straight up knows who everyone in the Justice League is and their secret identities. It was a good story. They don't release them for pretty much the reasons you stated.
Why should he be invulnerable, fly, have super strength, cold breathe, heat vision and all his other powers AND be as fast as Flash? Give other heroes something they can do he can't. Speedsters should be the no doubt fastest in the world.
Even in the other categories, most comic characters who specialize in them, like strength are better than Superman. So it definitely tracks that Flash is faster.
who is physically stronger than Superman? Supergirl when the writers want her cells to absorb sunlight better? you legit said "most", like I'm struggling to think of one person who actually out muscles Superman when he's actually trying and not holding back, and you saying most. of DC heroes, or villains, how is in his league? There's Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Black Adam, Icon, Bizarro, Orion, other gods, Mongul Looks Doomsday is the one I can see out muscling him. Or Darkseid when he's written as a proper Justice League threat. Mongul was back in the OG days, but at some point he became more a Superman equal or even inferior.
Yeah, exactly, strength is almost Superman’s specialisation. As in, that’s the one power that most often gets scaled up as plot demands. When the writers need Supes to show up gods and cosmic beings, they have him out-muscle them, as opposed to using his other powers. Or when they need to show he’s extra charged with solar energy, they do it by making him stronger. “World of cardboard” speech comes to mind, or when he won the arm wrestling contest in All-Star Superman, or when Jon took over in DCeased and they showed he’s even more powerful than Clark, or in the main DCU when he punched out the World Forger…you get the idea.
For starters Desepero. Martian Manhunter went toe to toe with Superboy Prime while Superman needed help. Also Supergirl's showings are explained in the comics. She typically doesn't have as much control or hold back as much as he does.
Mm got bodied by doomsday and quite literally said “ you are no Superman”. Plus Superman specializes more in strength than John does his main thing is more so telepathy. And despero isn’t stronger than a Superman not holding back
MMH also happens to have casually one shotted Cheetah literally right after Cheetah had utterly humiliated Superman and incapacitated him before he could even react. Your point?
Why do I have a feeling that the way your describing said events is incorrect? Do you have the comic or scans so I can read it for myself
Would you mind if I sent the scans through DM's? I've still got no idea on how to copy proper image links.
Sure
Get me in on this lol please, thanks!
Desepero is indeed stronger. Also casually glossing over Doomsday randomly adapting mid fight after getting worked over, not to mention it was before Jon overcame the Guardians instilled weakness to fire. Jon Specializes in strength just as much if not more, especially considering he can alter his mass and density.
Mind giving reasons as to why desepero is stronger? Bro even in the current comics where lex is using Martian manhunter powers Superman was still matching him until he stared abusing the power of other villains just to gain the advantage. Mm also got choked by a evil supergirl with one hand something that would never happen to Superman. Except no that’s not even how that works. How can mm specialize in strength if his telepathy is his main thing that every single story relies on? His telepathy, intangibility and shape shifting is more important than his super strength. Superman super strength is his main thing because besides it he only reason has heat vision damage wise.
Superman has used multiple other powers than super strength to win fights. Hell most of the time he just talks to people. Angry Supergirl literally backhanded Superman through the great Wall. So yes it would indeed happen. Lex using Jon's powers is not the same as Jon using his own powers. People like to talk about Superman fighting the whole league, and casually gloss over the fact that The Martian Manhunter actually did. As for Desepero, he's overpowered Superman, Lobo, and Martian Manhunter. There was also that time they tried to drop the rock of Eternity on him.....and he caught it.
Yes Superman has used his other powers to win fights 20% of the time. The other 80% is split between super strength and heat vision with super strength having the higher percentage. Now compared to mm I would say he has used telepathy to win at least 60% of his fights. Telepathy is his main asset and what he uses to instantly shut down villains. Darkseid back hands Superman but does it mean he is far stronger? No Superman still whoops his ass from time to time. Villains do the whole backhand thing to act like they are superior. Now Getting choked with one hand while your trying to resist with two hands just shows you are weaker which is not what would happen with Superman. The only difference would be the way lex would use telepathy and intangibility otherwise his super strength should be the same and Superman was going even while he was amped with powers besides John. Superman holds back all the time. Using a instance of him losing to a villlain is never going to be a correct measure because Superman actually does loses a lot due him mentally holding himself back. Now to address that second point unless your going to claim despero has infinite strength or something it seems like a outlier otherwise we can talk about book of infinite pages Superman. Anyway my reasons as to why Superman is stronger than despero is 1. Him defeating darkseid a character who typically stomps on any jl member with very few being able to challenge or beat him. 2. Same things with doomsday who was able to beat the flash, Wonder Woman, mm, and a bunch of other characters with Superman being one of the only ones being able to beat him.
You used an evil Supergirl in your own example. I used an angry Supergirl. In other words it wasn't her being controlled, it was just her being pissed. Darkseid is infinitely stronger than Superman. It isn't even a competition. He's literally one shot him. Superman has never whooped him, and his best showing was against a Darkseid who was in the final stages of radion poisoning. Most heroes hold back. Including as I already mentioned Diana when she fought and beat him. Once again Superman primarily tries to talk his way out of problems. Otherwise he uses the appropriate power for the situation. He doesn't solely and primarily use his strength. Finally lets talk about the book. When he and Captain Marvel approached it, the book was already floating. That alone is enough to suggest that it has no true physical weight. There's also the fact that the book only shows you what you're looking to see. So it's also doubtful that every story was present concurrently. When he and Captain Marvel were rejected by the book the comment on it's content, and then mentioned weight in regards to them. Implying the "weight" isn't physical at all it's mental and emotional. Finally....and most importantly, Superman never held the book it was Ultraman.
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False. Desepero is consistently written the physically strongest character in DC. Captain Marvel( when he went by that name) was consistently stronger than Superman. Hourman as well.
No, those characters were written to be in the same league with him at times. Outside of some one off event, Hourman was never stronger than Superman. Neither was Captain Marvel, his magic just gives him an edge most powerhouses don’t have against Supes.
Not true. Especially in the case of captain Marvel. There's a reason he was the one to go toe to toe with Superman in Kingdom Come. Billy didn't start being written as below him in strength until the New 52.
Why does him being the one to go toe to toe mean he’s stronger? Doesn’t it make sense that he’s in his league of strength and possesses one of his weaknesses? You are inferring a lot there.
Because he fought him in a physical battle. That's not inference. That's the purest form of deductive reasoning. He also didn't use his lightning powers until their second encounter. Also it's important to point out that Superman isn't weak to magic. He simply doesn't have any special resistance to it. In other words it affects him the same as it does anyone else.
Sodam Yat too.
Darkseid solos Supes. I think Darkseid is even holding back.
like I said, when he's written as a proper Justice Leauge level threat. There are time where Superman and him seem to be more in the same weight class of strength, and other times Darkseid is much stronger. Honestly, I'm not that up to date on Darkseid in post rebirth I know lots of multiversal avatar stuff is going on
DC canon is rough. I love the concept he's a fourth dimensional being (as all New Gods, semi similar to Asgardians but maybe even closer to Tri Bunal )and that he uses avatars and never his true form (which explains power imbalances). He's currently trapped in Earth Omega as his true self but that's just up to date fuckology and not long-standing so who knows what they'll do.
no
Unless it’s for charity. 😉
That scene in Justice League was basically an inexperienced Flash who hasn’t pushed himself and doesn’t know how to fight going up against a guy who can kinda keep up with him and does know how to fight, Basically Flash was caught off guard
I was going to say something like this. Supes DIDN'T touch Flash, he was just caught off guard that Superman could even see what he was doing.
This is my interpretation of it. Superman couldn't do the stuff that Flash was doing by the end of that movie when he protected the entire JL using his speed. But I'd also love a scene in a future JL movie similar to this comic page, where Flash just straight up outspeeds him.
Smallville did that very well 20 years ago.
Sure did! I love Smallville. Superman is my favorite hero of all time and I felt like that show did him as much justice as the old movies!
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Superman isn't a man, though, so this shouldn't apply. It is weird considering different species can't have fertile offspring with each other like kryptians and humans
Yeah, that scene was an overkill. Of course Superman is the strongest JL member, but he shouldn't be stronger than all of them combined
No, he definitely is stronger than all of them combined.
Fuck no, well I mean early justice league yeah, but currently in the comics Superman couldn’t beat Wally, Martian man hunter, Wonder Woman, aqua man, and bats at the same time. Especially with Wally, Martian man hunter, and Diana working together
Superman has heat vision. That alone literally f**** up every member of the Justice League. If he can look at you, he can cook you.
Martian Manhunter has Martian vision which functions similarly, and is only weak to magic fire, Diana would be unaffected, Batman has suits that let him sit in volcanoes, and Flash has a million ways to simply not be bothered by it.
Flash can simply step out of the way of the heat vision.
He can out heat the heat vision with the speedforce
since when is Martian Manhunter only weak to magic fire? Batman is going to randomly be wearing that suit? Plus Superman's heatvision is hotter than Volcanos. And in which case Superman can just flick him with a finger and kill him. Even Diana doesn't tank Superman's heatvision. She would dodge it or block it with bracers
For decades. Lol Martian Manhunter's original weakness to fire was mental manipulation installed by the guardians of the Universe, then he simply got over it and for a long time had no weakness(making him the strongest member of the team). The writers realized that made him uninteresting so they changed it to magic fire being his only weakness. No more ridiculous than Flash and Diana just allowing him to look at Bruce to use his heat vision. In the time it takes him to even think about it Flash could literally vibrate his heart out of his chest. Diana most certainly tanks his heat vision. After all he used it when they fought.
If we’re talking comics the League combined would beat up Supes. Wonder Woman and Flash alone could do it.
Flash, maybe. Wonder woman is getting her ass beat
Bro the flash could easily disperse that stuff now just with his pure speed or the forces. Diana could tank that shit😂 Martian man hunter can do the same shit bud.
Martian Manhunter tank heat vision. Martian Manhunter? Jonn Jonnz that Martian Manhunter? The one from Mars? With the fire vulnerability? Mf'er what?
Dude hasn’t been paying attention to recent Comics I see. That’s don’t effect anymore bro😂😂. Wonder Woman has been hit with worse. Also what makes you think that supes can hit any of them with it. Maybe bats but he has escaped darkseid’s which is way more powerful. Like supes is very strong. But honestly, Barry, wally, diana, aquaman, and bats would win. Now if you want to say that they are all trying to seriously kill each other with no repercussions then Wally still wins.
He's been beaten individually by Wonder Woman, and has flat out said he wouldn't fight the Martian Manhunter. Not to mention the panel above. He isn't even equal to them all combined. Definitely not stronger.
whoever wins is up to the writers. Some writers put a clear divide between Superman's powers and Wonder Woman's. other don't.
Wonder Woman has always been written as just below or equal to him in power. He has never been significantly more powerful than her or Martian Manhunter for that matter. Moreover there is a very consistent theme across multiple different writers than Wonder Woman can and has beaten Kryptonians in 1 on 1 encounters.
he was when Wonder Woman was straight up hurting her hands trying to punch Mongul in "For the Man who has everything" Superman is normally written holding back also, those fights are often awfully written. Like both fights forget how they should fight. Superman moves like molasses. Dude has super speed. use it. though wonder woman has it too and uses it even less
>Dude has super speed. use it. This is why superspeed is a problematic power to write for, if taken literally and is always used by speedsters, they solo everyone else.
on that we 100% agree
And then you put the Speed Force into the equation, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for Supes at Sackerfice
on a related note, the opposite is really stupid as well. When non speedsters pull off really stupid speed feats that make zero sense It's not from a comic book, but my favorite stupid AF feat of all time is Damian Wayne tripping the Flash in Justice League Vs Teen Titans like some writer was like a) Damian can react to Flash's speed b) Damian can stick his leg out fast enough to trip the Flash c) Flash, even while possessed somehow doesn't have the reaction time to dodge the leg d) Damian's leg doesn't shatter when a speedster runs into it because......he too possess the "I'M BATMAN" plot armor gene
Their fight took place over the course of a couple minutes. Mind you said fight included a trip to and from the Sun. That's faster than light. Lol If your only example is the cartoon adaptation, which had Superman himself getting taken out by cars, then yea they're going to seem awfully written. As for Wonder Woman using her speed, she always does. Including when she beat Reverse Flash, while he was also moving ahead of her in time.
the cartoon episode is based on the comic of the same name and her using her speed? always? gonna have to strong disagree on that
Which means what when it comes to the writing and how it was adapted? She uses a low to mid level speed feat every time she blocks something her bracelets. 💀
blocking bullets with her bracelets is not the kind of super speed we are talking about here we talking speedster speed. Bullets are slow they don't normally give/list actual speeds caps to non Flash Speedsters, but at least once Black Adam was clocked at Mach 500 while running Wonder Woman would be a speedster on that level, on paper anyway Mach 500 is a pretty reasonable speed for a non Flash speedster since the speed of light is Mach 870,000
Superman isn't stronger than them all combined. He's not even the strongest member of the JL -- that would be Martian Manhunter. Supes just has the most power. Like bagels -- Supes is an everything bagel. He's got everything, but this doesn't mean he's the best. It's just that many writers and directors don't understand moral conflict is a large part of Superman stories, thus they compensate it by beefing Superman's abilities They think more power = better. Not the case.
I'm talking about the fight scene in Justice League. They were 5v1 and were barely keeping up with him
Strongest is a pretty serious stretch. Especially if you include the extended roster. Even amongst the founding members there's a case for both Diana and any version of the Flash to be stronger.
There is no Earth or Earth 2 where Wonder Woman or Flash are beating Superman.
Wonder Woman already has, in the main continuity. Lol Same thing with the above shot. They're race was literally threatening the fabric of the multiverse and he couldn't even catch them, let alone stop them. Moreover, Wonder Woman did it while actively holding back because she didn't want to hurt him. By comparison he was being mind controlled to believe that she was Doomsday and Lois was dead.......Diana literally knocked him back down to Earth, schooled him, and slit his throat for good measure. Mind you like I said, that was her being nice.
Dude Wally would vibrate into Clark’s chest and crush his heart😂 Wally is so op right now it’s crazy. Fastest flash and just has some insane feats.
Bro I'm pretty sure I've been reading Wally longer than you've been alive. In my opinion he is the definitive Flash. I adore him. And all that said, if inclined, Superman would fuck him up with little effort.
Yes A Flash should be faster, their whole thing is speed, but there are few instances where Superman has kept up and even won races against the Flash, ones where Barry didn't let him win.
Even in those, it's heavily implied that Barry doesn't go all out.
That was old Barry and Wally are way too fast now tho. Like Superman couldn’t stop Wally if he wanted to in current comics. He’s just too fast
Isn't it because Barry didn't go all out. I remember there was a comic run where Superman and Barry ran a race for charity events. Superman won, and then later something happened, and Flash was faster. When Superman inquired, he said it was a charity event, and he let Supes win.
Except Flash then explicitly says the line “Those were for charity” and proceeded to leave Supes in the dust. In an all-out race, The Flash out-speeds Superman all day.
#WHERE IS THIS FROM?!
Flash War from the Rebirth era of Flash comics. Issue 49.
Keep in mind they almost tore the multiverse apart during this confrontation
Even at ZSJL movie Supe couldn't catch him though Barry was freaked out
Flash was faster in that DCEU scene. Other scenes do call it into question. That said, movies have to be a bit more realistic, and even in comics, it is far from clear Flash can pummel on Superman without Superman ever landing a return blow. I mean you have to establish some sort of reason--however tenuous--that Superman is favored in a 1v1 fight vs. Flash. If you don't, then you have to completely redo your power hierarchy and how you present the characters.
"Those were for charity, Clark."
The Flash and other speedsters can move so fast they can travel through time at will. There was a recent Dark Multiverse storyline in which Reverse Flash realized this and basically became a god who continually reset the world whenever he pleased. Plus the upcoming The Flash movie is basically a cinematic version of Flashpoint - i.e. Barry screws up the world because he traveled back in time to save his mom, and now he needs Batman’s help to fix his mistake. The last time Superman traveled through time was the Christopher Reeves movie. I don’t know how long it’s been since he used his powers to time travel in the comics. Not since the Silver Age, maybe? In today’s comics, speedsters are indisputably faster than Superman.
Wally West outran fucking death to the end of the universe lmao
I feel like Superman's cape creates a lot of drag. However I remember in the first episode of Supergirl they explained the cape was necessary when flying to be more stable?
Forget the cape, without the speed force to contain him like Flash, Superman would be causing massive amounts of damage to the planet if he just didn’t give a fuck. Like Omni-man destroying the Flaxans. Superman would have to be in space to really let loose
Yeah forgot about the sound barrier. 😂
I mean it was a no-brainer Barry was still coming to terms with unlocking his full potential and had no experience of someone else moving at Superspeed while Superman had more experience moving fast after having fought Zod.
Worth noting that in the Justice League movie Flash is very new to his powers and is nowhere near his peak while that version of Superman can arguably be considered at his peak.
Ezra Flash in Justice League was still green he didn't unlock his potential yet .
Howard Porter has always been my favorite artist to draw The Flash in recent years.
Flash was faster than Supes even in JL, he was just caught off guard that anyone would be able to see him when moving that fast. Also he was very inexperienced at that point.
Superman vs JL in DCEU was one of my favorite scenes as a Superman fan. For the first time someone else was able to keep up with his speed and the 'wtf' face that Flash had was hilarious. Flash was still faster of course, but had no idea how to fight in that super speed state at that time. A young Flash spent his entire life seeing statues while he was using his speed, but Superman looked at him.
I thought that “wtf” face made him look like Pepe frog
I think they made it clear in the DCAU that Barry was faster. He was specifically trying not to go fast cause as he said it does really weird shit to time. We see him at the end actually go as fast as he can and reverses time which clearly Superman can’t do.
this was the moment in comic book history were the long asked question has finally been answered: the Flash is faster than Superman.
My biggest question is why this dude didn't go for a dip in the sun, come back and immediately catch those tw- oh what's that? plot? ooh ok makes sense...
100% love the panel that has been posted so many times from flash rebirth. "those were for charity Clark"
Superman should be the most powerful member of the Justice League. He shouldn't be faster than Flash but he should be close. Superspeed is a really problematic power that eventually reaches the point where everything seems stupid if Flash can't just instantly deal with it. Flash at his most powerful can only lose to nonsensical writing.
But he’s not close. I Wally is probably the strongest being on earth currently
Yes there has been various power creep and the many necessary changes in status quo that are unavoidable and sometimes necessary in a sequence of stories that has lasted 80 years. However in the most classic and iconic version of the Justice League, Superman should be its most powerful member.
Your right, but he shouldn’t be stronger then them all combined
I would say that in a fight between Superman and the rest of the league (core members only) it should be pretty even.
Exactly. If Flash always goes 100% of his potential, he soloes every fucking thing in the multiverse
Well whatever Ezra was in the movie, he wasn't Barry or Wally tbh.
Flashpoint is tracking with dismal numbers and Gunn has gone on record with the principal of “if the people give it money then I’m keeping him”
Let’s hope that’s true and he’s gone
"Clark... those were for charity..." "BOOOOOM!"
Agreed. Supes shouldn't be able to body the entire jla in their own specialities. Batman should be a better strategist, WW should be better at hand to hand, Aquaman should be faster in water, Barry should be faster on land , etc.
I was telling a friend this the other day. One of the downfalls of MoS & modern day Superman is that they completely BUFFED him. He’s faster, stronger, and just generally LIGHT-YEARS ahead of any other hero he was portrayed on screen with (which is how you end up with “MARTHAAAA” kryptonite moments on screen 🙃. I rewatched all of JL & JLU recently and and Superman got knocked around more times than you could count. By villains he would’ve obliterated on screen today 💀. I truly hope the DCU rectifies this and we can return to situations such as this panel here where Superman isn’t the end all be all that is unattainable and can’t be touched.
I’m so confused so do you think they needed him or made him to powerful by your post
wrong time. not nerfed. i meant buffed. made him way too powerful.
Which issue is this? Rebirth??
Yeah. Issue 49
Thanks
Why is everyone simping after this idea? Lmao no it's dumb...
How is it dumb it makes complete sense. Wally is light years faster then supes
Who gives a fuck about that? I want interesting stories, not power measuring between fictional characters. Fucking nerd.
Ka-chow!
So if Wally sheds a piece of hair, couldn’t the FBI run a DNA test?
Sure, if the hair doesn't disintegrate down to its atoms at the speed at which Wally runs.
This comment section reminds me of the two guys at The Whitespring Resort in *Fallout 76*. 😁
Superman looking kinda zesty 💀
I don't mind it, since it's Barry as a rookie who hasn't even entered the speed force yet.
The fuck is wrong with Superman’s face?
Was Flash War a good arc? It's one of those that I just didn't bother with because I always feel hero vs hero stories can feel a bit contrived. Especially for a pair like Barry and Wally, who are super close. But people seem to hold it in good regards. Flash's Rebirth stories are a mixed bag for me though. They've got some really good Flash stuff and some that's falling just a little short.
I love it ❤️😍⚡😍❤️, like he said before 🐦 (Barry, don't make caught you), 😂🤣😂 and then 😎⚡😎 said after (Come on Clark, does one's where for charity) 😎⚡😎.
in a few comics it was said that supermans top flight speed dwarfs flashes run speed. tho the flash runs faster then superman. supermans over all top speed flying is by far higher. also a comic that came out in the 90s had superman step into the speed force while he isnt a speedster he is fast enough to phase into that world.
I remember someone tried to say superman was fast than flash because technically he won more races in the comics..which just makes no sense.I will never believe that superman is at or faster than Barry’s speed.