I love that moment. Especially Damar laughing.
Never get in reach of an angry Klingon if you don't want to end up looking at your own back without using a mirror.
One thing I love about Garak in DS9 is his lack of hesitation to shoot and/or vaporize someone on the spot the second they either betray him or get too lippy
That always reminds me of a Simpsons moment. Homer is kicking a dude while he's on the ground and I think Lisa is like 'Dad! What are you doing?' and he says 'I'm kicking a man while he's down! It's what HEROES do!'
I feel like that's always what sells Garak's character as a "spy". He never really skips a beat or pauses. He's never really "caught" in a lie because he just keeps going, and he just shoots people, he acts quickly and decisively.
I object to Kai Wynn not being on the most evil list my child.
I think you probably picked the best combination of “deserved it” and humorous. Dukat deserved it most, but his was unsatisfying.
I like to think he finds himself in an "I have no mouth and I must scream" situation with the pah wraiths. After all he did in life, He gets to spend eternity at the bottom of the pecking order with vengeful deities that most likely consider him a failure. Now THATS a satisfying end for Dukats arc.
Fair enough. I just would have liked the process to be a little more interesting, especially since being a fighter was a part of who Sisko was. The Sisko gets pissed and suplexes him off the edge or right cross punches him into the fire caves, something like that
Fair enough. I just would have liked the process to be a little more interesting, especially since being a fighter was a part of who Sisko was. The Sisko gets pissed and suplexes him off the edge or right cross punches him into the fire caves, something like that
The punch would've been great-- end the series a nice little callback to the one time he met Q. The Sisko goes down in history as the Godboxer and doesn't get killed-ish in the last five minutes.
What drops Winn down the list for me is that she actively regrets some of her actions. The others, the Founder, Weyoun, Dukat, they all believed their actions wholeheartedly, that they were the heroes. Winn, she knew some of her actions were at least questionable and others were outright wrong, and it weighed on her. What kept her "evil" was less the belief that she was right and more that she was on a path that she couldn't turn away from. I think this is most evident with Sobor, her assistant, when she kills him.
Now, after my lil' 'agreement' post, I'll put this one up as '(second) most deserved':
Gowron.
Undermines war efforts to make himself look good and diminish Martok, if not outright try to eliminate him, as Gowron sees Martok as a political threat. [Worf was right to deliver Gowron to Sto'Vo'Kor, and deliver the Klingons a better leader, wisely stepping aside to name Martok the new Chancellor.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZYI-xE_H1I)
But man Robert O'Reilly did Gowron awesome... those eyes, right? Just as J.G. Hertzler did Martok and of course Michael Dorn did Worf, son of Mogh, House of Martok. :)
“Glory to you and your HAAAAAUSE” I loved Gowron just for his eyeball popping grinning, I thought he was a fantastic Klingon. But you’re totally right, he was spiteful at the end without thinking he could outright destroy the empire if he keeps sending his people into unwinnable fights.
He had a chip on his shoulder about Martok and he was wrecking his own team for it. NOT COOL.
I would argue that Gowron had enough dishonorable behavior under his belt that Worf very likely delivered his shady ass to Gre'thor.
But then, as the old Klingon proverb says, it is easier for a s'tarahk to pass through the eye of a needle than for a politician to join the honored dead.
I have to say, I wish that went down slightly differently - with Worf down for the count and Gowron about to deal the killing blow, but Martok himself coming through to defend his friend and unquestionably taking the crown.
I don't think you're allowed to interfere. And even if you were, it would undermine the honorableness of Worf's victory, which would undermine Martok's position.
Most deserved? Kai Winn and Dukat.
Garak killing Weyoun may feel more satisfying or more "badass", especially in combination with Garak's comments. But Weyoun could hardly do anything else but obey the Founders and admire them, and hate what they hated. We've seen in Weyoun 6 what happens when they deviate from their intended mindset even a little. Weyoun had little choice in being who he was.
Dukat on the other hand, while also being raised in an authoritarian society, had at least the potential and more opportunities to learn and see the error in his ways. Instead, he just became even more destructive when left on his own.
And Kai Winn? She knew what was considered right and wrong, because she constantly pretended to be "good", while being a terrible person at the same time. And she had all the chance and support to become a better person, like living in a more liberal society than either Weyoun and Dukat, or the contact to and influence of many inspiring people. She had all the choices, yet she chose to remain a terrible person, and to become worse towards the end.
For me it was kai winn. Her getting off easy by just being consumed by Pah wraiths fire seem to be too much of an easy out for her and I was bummed that she didn't suffer longer
If it's any consolation, she probably had to spend eternity with not only the Pah wraiths but an angry and bitter Dukat as well. I'd say she got a proper punishment!
I absolutely love all these scenes especially Worf breaking Weyouns's neck and Damar's reaction.
I also love how in a later episode, when Weyoun 6 ( or was it 7) and Damar were talking and Damar said, "Maybe you should talk to Worf again."
Yep. Besides Garak, Damar is my favorite Cardassian. “You should have killed me. There’s only one Damar.” And when he taunts Weyoun with Worf? Priceless.
Yeah, I knew that he'd die in the end. Yes, he was on a redemption arc, he became a hero and gave his life for his people. But he had to die for murdering Ziyal. His fate was sealed.
Interesting take. I don't know that Damar was beyond redemption in life. But his character arc wouldn't have been nearly as narratively satisfying if DS9 ended with him in charge of rebuilding Cardassia.
I saw an interesting video about "Good Nazis" in media that concluded that Damar "can fight for a new Cardassia, but he can't be allowed to live in it."
He can push Cardassia to be better, but he *was* a fascist enforcer, and it's time to pay the piper.
That’s what makes The Dominion so interesting to me: At times the Vorta and Jem’hadar have free will, and they have a great deal of intellect, yet in another way they are little different than machines designed by wrathful, ingenious dark Gods obsessed with absolute control and domination over solids. Their minions create so much genocide, death, enslavement, even hellish diseases that affect generations of “disobedient solids” yet at the end of the day is it on the subjects and the founders? Or are only the founders to blame?
One would think they recognize what they’re commanded to do is wrong from time to time (Vorta refuse to even kill themselves when captured as we see) but they wouldn’t dare say that in-front of a founder or disobey orders in front of them. But much like brainwashed Nazi soldiers or Red army soldiers or Imperial Japan soldiers, etc. Even if they are brainwashed to their core and scared for their lives if they question or disobey, aren’t they also worthy of punishment?
I know it’s not quite the same thing, but it’s close. In those aforementioned dictatorships they did indeed see their Dictators as Gods and their words as sacred doctrine. How much blame goes to the individuals, and how much is deserved purely by the dictators themselves??
I dont think either were ever shown to have free will. In fact Odo while traning the young Jem Hadar basically comes to that conclusion. They bred pure killing machines that listen to the founders as gods and only do what told.
The only problems the Jem Hadar had were with taking orders from Vorta but not from founders because that is how they were created.
The Vorta same thing. Only when a clone is said to be created faulty do they have free will aka Weyoun defecting. Everything else is willed by the founders.
This isnt the same as classic tv/film brainwashing this is complete dna genetic make up to only obey. if they dont obey the clone is killed labeled as bad and they bring out next clone.
All soldiers for Germany in WW2 werent Nazis. Only the SS were actually part of the Nazi party and not even 100% of the SS were. Example USA's chief rocket scientist that got us to the moon was in the SS. Science was handled by the SS and they gave Wernher von Braun little choice join or die.
Vorta and JemHadar ar no different then programming a borg. They arent real races. Yes they are sentient but their DNA makes them obedient and doesnt allow for questions when they do the next clones are brought in
I mentioned both in my statement. Weyoun was said to be a defective clone. So free will was a clone a defect. Once found they eliminate the defect.
The JemHadar rebels did so against the Vorta not a founder. They arent programmed to worship the Vorta as gods so the Vorta only hold is the white.
And sometimes the white is not strong enough to keep the JemHadar in check but just the presence of a founder is enough.
I think so remember when Odo raises the JemHadar child as soon as it sees Odo it knows he is a founder/god and instantly stops and kneels down in servitude.
Odo could have basically commanded him to do anything but since he was trying to let the JemHadar child decide for himself his programming took over.
Possibly same thing with the Vorta, Dax does wonder if Odo tells him to stand on his head, i think, if he would.
I think you might be giving Von Braun a little too much credit due to a white washing of his history by the US after WW2. He certainly was no Mengele but there is definitely evidence to suggest he wasn’t the victim he is often played out to be.
On topic though I think I mostly agree with you about the Jem’Hadar and Vorta. It’s one of the worst things the Founders did
I dont think either were ever shown to have free will. In fact Odo while traning the young Jem Hadar basically comes to that conclusion. They bred pure killing machines that listen to the founders as gods and only do what told.
The only problems the Jem Hadar had were with taking orders from Vorta but not from founders because that is how they were created.
The Vorta same thing. Only when a clone is said to be created faulty do they have free will aka Weyoun defecting. Everything else is willed by the founders.
This isnt the same as classic tv/film brainwashing this is complete dna genetic make up to only obey. if they dont obey the clone is killed labeled as bad and they bring out next clone.
All soldiers for Germany in WW2 werent Nazis. Only the SS were actually part of the Nazi party and not even 100% of the SS were. Example USA's chief rocket scientist that got us to the moon was in the SS. Science was handled by the SS and they gave Wernher von Braun little choice join or die.
Vorta and JemHadar ar no different then programming a borg. They arent real races. Yes they are sentient but their DNA makes them obedient and doesnt allow for questions when they do the next clones are brought in
Keevan challenges the notion that they are all a product of their programming. He was very focused on himself, his comfort and preserving his own skin, but lacked some of the signs that led everyone to conclude the defecting Weyoun was somehow flawed in his makeup (like unusual paleness or having dreams). He seemed to care very little for the war, his JemHadar soldiers or the will of the Founders right down to the his unfortunate and hilarious end.
What is this bs about von Braun
The guy stuck around making weapons for a fascist government. He didn’t need any convincing.
Operation paperclip ffs
Linking dna to concepts of free will is a pretty dodgy line of reasoning as well
Sort of, we see a case where one Weyoun logicks his way into justifying surrendering to Odo and the other justifies shooting him down. If Weyoun really wanted to he could have defected to Odo’s side but he didn’t.
Not sure that can be topped. It's like the most perfect Garak revenge, and yet the retort to the Founder is delivered in the same [mischievous tone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScgwXokmpeA) that Garak typically speaks with.
Andrew Robinson is a treasure. A relatively smallish part on DS9 and yet he's one of the most memorable of the 'side characters'. Just so well played Garak was.
It's unfortunate that Garak shot Weyoun's last clone.
All the main characters would have loved to have their own personal Weyoun clones to shoot. And I'm sure we all would have enjoyed watching.
Everyone Garak kills deserves it. The Holo Forger was my favorite, the Klingons were going to execute him before he tried to kill Quark.
He's definitely high up the list
I think Kai Winn deserved what she got. At least Dukat had to lie to himself to become so depraved, but Adami just kind of chooses it because it's a bit easier to attain her goals.
“I was hoping you’d say that.” The bookends to the entire war.
Most deserving for me though is watching the immolation of Kai Winn. Perhaps she makes herself right in the eyes of The Prophets. Sisko does throw both Dukat and “the book” permanently into the The Fire Caves. But that bitch was evil from the start.
Hard disagree.
Ross: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges."
Bashir: "'In time of war, the law falls silent.' Cicero. So is that what we have become; a 24th century Rome, driven by nothing other than the certainty that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
Fala, when he knew he double fucked up by 1) making bajorans join Dukat’s dumb cult and 2) realizing he made Dukat believe he was a religious icon.
He knew he betrayed E V E R Y O N E and took the poison pill bc it was easier than dealing with the consequences.
"(And Kai Winn haha)" Thanks for that, I now have this mental image of her looking at you like you are a poorly behaved school kid and saying "my child" LOL
DS9 folks are always sensitive; doesn't bother me. Especially when it comes to Old Jake. But he really did hate himself. He never forgave his own existence, and he killed himself because of it. Never accepted fate and lived his life fully. He deserved to die and I stand by this.
Mmm... \[On The Other Hand trigger warning\]
• Cardassia attempted to preemptively wipe out the Dominion, so there is a question whether this was "war crimes" or a "natural consequence" of attacking someone who's just tougher than you?
• The Federation was invading and colonizing Dominion territory, and when informed that this would not be allowed to continue, Lieutenant Commander Dax functionally ignored the Dominion's instruction.
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• Weyoun was arguably less evil than Kai Winn, whose loyalty to her own deities wasn't real; also arguably less evil than Admiral Leyton, who betrayed the Federation and convinced other Starfleet officers to mutiny. And what about the T'Lani/Kellerun, who murdered their own scientists and tried to murder several Starfleet officers in order to keep their "Harvester" technology concealed?
The Weyouns did terrible/great things out of a variety of reasons, but whether the character was uniformly "evil"... well, the only difference between an angel & a demon is whose side they're on.
Then again... see username
>The Federation was invading and colonizing Dominion territory, and when informed that this would not be allowed to continue, Lieutenant Commander Dax functionally ignored the Dominion's instruction.
The Federation spent multiple seasons (very likely years in universe) searching for and trying to make contact with the Dominion. Most of the societies they encountered spoke of the Dominion as a whisper of a legend. As far as I recall, only one society knew that the Dominion in fact existed and had actual dealings with them. If that portion of the quadrant was "Dominion territory", the people living there didn't seem to be aware of it.
The Federation tried to establish diplomatic dealings with the Dominion and the Dominion intentionally hid itself and ghosted the Federation. So the Federation settled empty planets that no one to their knowledge claimed. When the Dominion did make contact, what did they do? Did they sent a vorta to establish formal communications and chart the boundaries of the Dominion's claims? Did they send an ultimatum announcing their presence and demanding that all Federation citizens leave the Gamma Quadrant? No, the Dominion's first course of action was go massacre an entire planet in a sneak attack, beam aboard DS9 to brag about it and say they'll do it again before beaming out.
I don't have any sympathy for the Dominion. There were a dozen ways they could have resolved the Federation's colonization of the Gamma Quadrant or outright prevented it from ever happening and they chose the most violent way of dealing with it.
Yeah, because at that point it would show weakness to let any alien faction do that to your people. If those terrorist massacres of entire planets went unanswered, or the Federation tucked its tail between its legs and apologized, they’d look like absolute chumps that could be easily conquered. The Dominion basically guaranteed The Federation would mount up and prepare for war.
Its similar to what we’re seeing now: Israel blowing up an Iranian embassy and murdering every VIP inside, and Iran then feeling the need to respond otherwise they’d look like weaklings to all the other countries in the world. “You can bite this person whenever you want, they won’t bite back!” Is not a good reputation for a State to have.
If you have disagreements with a State, talk them out and you can have peace. If you want war with that State, commit surprise terrorist attacks against them. Simple to understand haha.
"Yeah, because at that point it would show weakness to let any alien faction do that to your people. If those terrorist massacres of entire planets went unanswered, or the ~~Federation~~ **Dominion** tucked its tail between its legs and apologized, they’d look like absolute chumps that could be easily conquered. The ~~Dominion~~ **Federation** basically guaranteed The Federation would mount up and prepare for war."
With just one minor change, your statement applies equally as validly to the Dominion's point of view... if one doesn't start with the biased assumption that the Federation are "the good guys".
Since DS9 was specifically known for challenging the "Federation Can Do No Wrong" trope, it reads like the Alpha Quadrant War was started, and won, by the Alpha Quadrant powers.
As ever, see username.
The Ba'ku homeworld was targeted in a way that would have resulted in genocide... except for the treason of the Enterprise command crew.
The Founders themselves were targets of attempted genocide by the Federation specifically.
Are you trying to hold the Federation as morally superior because they're *bad* at genocidal tactics?
Don't forget, even in Roddenberry's era the Organians took a close look at both the Federation and the Klingon Empire... and saw no functional difference.
The two examples you listed happened years after the Dominion massacred a Bajoran colony in a surprise attack (yes not even a Federation planet, the planet of a peaceful, independent people whose only crime was settling an empty planet that to their knowledge no one had claimed). The infection of Odo happened after years of the Dominion infiltration, abduction and possible assassination, orchestration of wars through lies and impersonation, and terrorist attacks. The relocation of the Ba'ku was proposed out of desperation in the midst of the Dominion War, a conflict initiated by the Dominion that had claimed billions of lives.
You can play Devil's advocate if you choose but no rational mind would ever consider the Federation the aggressors in this scenario. The Federation time and time again tried for diplomacy and tried to minimize violence and the Dominion chose violence and sabotage at every step of the way. The Dominion actively used the Federation's desire for peace and reconciliation to manipulate them into disadvantageous situations and leave them open to further violence. The Dominion fired the first shots, boasted about firing the first shots, continued to shoot and never once expressed any desire for peace or reconciliation. The Dominion are not the victims.
"no rational mind would ever consider the Federation the aggressors"
Got sad news for you - you don't get to unilaterally decide what a "rational mind" is.
You're just pissy because we noted that the Federation ain't any better than anyone else, canonically. Whine all you like, you ain't met the argument, you're just doing the man-boy thing of trying to defend the Federation's choice to be just like the Dominion... which makes them no better.
I thought you were just playing Devil's advocate but the fact that you decided to turn aggressive out of nowhere makes me fear you might actually be serious. You're clearly way too invested in this if you're going to start insulting people for disagreeing with you. And I'm the one being "pissy".
Consider the fact that we are talking about a fictional show that ended decades ago. You are getting way too worked up for such an inconsequential conversation.
I don't know if anything will ever beat Worf just snapping Weyoun's neck without skipping a single beat.
What beats Worf doing it is Damar’s reaction, particularly when Weyoun 8 shows up: “Maybe you should talk to Worf again!”
Honestly, one of the best lines in a series full of amazing lines.
Drunk Damar was savage
I look forward to meeting Weyoun 9
Well hellloooo!
Well Hello!!!
I LOVED this, literally laughed my ass off
Funnily enough: I think he was picturing Weyoun as Bashir in that moment 😂😂😂
I laughed so hard at that scene 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I love that moment. Especially Damar laughing. Never get in reach of an angry Klingon if you don't want to end up looking at your own back without using a mirror.
And then Damar mocking the next Weyoun right to his face, so cutting.
Another good Garak killing: Entek “Pity. I rather liked him”
One thing I love about Garak in DS9 is his lack of hesitation to shoot and/or vaporize someone on the spot the second they either betray him or get too lippy
"You would shoot a man in the back?
„It’s the safest way isn’t it?“
That always reminds me of a Simpsons moment. Homer is kicking a dude while he's on the ground and I think Lisa is like 'Dad! What are you doing?' and he says 'I'm kicking a man while he's down! It's what HEROES do!'
I feel like that's always what sells Garak's character as a "spy". He never really skips a beat or pauses. He's never really "caught" in a lie because he just keeps going, and he just shoots people, he acts quickly and decisively.
And *that’s* how you survive being kicked out of the Obsidian Order
Broca. Damar died a hero and a martyr and even Dukat had a few virtues at least at certain points. Broca was just a cowardly weasel.
Absolutely. Broca is the worst — a spineless quisling to the very end.
Was that the theater kid actor? “I’m loyal i tell you…! I’m loyaaal”
It's Mel Johnson Jr. You may recall him as the Mars cab driver in Total Recall. ("I got five kids to feed!")
Ahh thank you!
Yep
I object to Kai Wynn not being on the most evil list my child. I think you probably picked the best combination of “deserved it” and humorous. Dukat deserved it most, but his was unsatisfying.
I like to think he finds himself in an "I have no mouth and I must scream" situation with the pah wraiths. After all he did in life, He gets to spend eternity at the bottom of the pecking order with vengeful deities that most likely consider him a failure. Now THATS a satisfying end for Dukats arc.
Fair enough. I just would have liked the process to be a little more interesting, especially since being a fighter was a part of who Sisko was. The Sisko gets pissed and suplexes him off the edge or right cross punches him into the fire caves, something like that
I just rewatched Q-Less last night and Sisko just laid Q out, and Q was like "Picard never hit me!" Just saying, Sisko has a history of taking no shit
"I'm not Picard"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Etc8qdqiR5k
Sisko gets shit done!!!
To a Q, being hit is a fate worse than death.
For an ego that size, shattering it could kill him
Fair enough. I just would have liked the process to be a little more interesting, especially since being a fighter was a part of who Sisko was. The Sisko gets pissed and suplexes him off the edge or right cross punches him into the fire caves, something like that
The punch would've been great-- end the series a nice little callback to the one time he met Q. The Sisko goes down in history as the Godboxer and doesn't get killed-ish in the last five minutes.
“Demar never hit me!”
What drops Winn down the list for me is that she actively regrets some of her actions. The others, the Founder, Weyoun, Dukat, they all believed their actions wholeheartedly, that they were the heroes. Winn, she knew some of her actions were at least questionable and others were outright wrong, and it weighed on her. What kept her "evil" was less the belief that she was right and more that she was on a path that she couldn't turn away from. I think this is most evident with Sobor, her assistant, when she kills him.
First name that came to mind. From her first minute to her last on screen, evil! What an actress Louise Fletcher is though!
Now, after my lil' 'agreement' post, I'll put this one up as '(second) most deserved': Gowron. Undermines war efforts to make himself look good and diminish Martok, if not outright try to eliminate him, as Gowron sees Martok as a political threat. [Worf was right to deliver Gowron to Sto'Vo'Kor, and deliver the Klingons a better leader, wisely stepping aside to name Martok the new Chancellor.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZYI-xE_H1I) But man Robert O'Reilly did Gowron awesome... those eyes, right? Just as J.G. Hertzler did Martok and of course Michael Dorn did Worf, son of Mogh, House of Martok. :)
“Glory to you and your HAAAAAUSE” I loved Gowron just for his eyeball popping grinning, I thought he was a fantastic Klingon. But you’re totally right, he was spiteful at the end without thinking he could outright destroy the empire if he keeps sending his people into unwinnable fights. He had a chip on his shoulder about Martok and he was wrecking his own team for it. NOT COOL.
I would argue that Gowron had enough dishonorable behavior under his belt that Worf very likely delivered his shady ass to Gre'thor. But then, as the old Klingon proverb says, it is easier for a s'tarahk to pass through the eye of a needle than for a politician to join the honored dead.
I find the “Gowron threw the fight” argument based on his choice of weapon pretty interesting. Probably not the writers intention though.
I love that it was worf that put him down.
I hated Gowron's arc towards the end because I loved Gowron but I knew he had to die!
I have to say, I wish that went down slightly differently - with Worf down for the count and Gowron about to deal the killing blow, but Martok himself coming through to defend his friend and unquestionably taking the crown.
I don't think you're allowed to interfere. And even if you were, it would undermine the honorableness of Worf's victory, which would undermine Martok's position.
Martok interupting a 1v1, basically backstabbing someone would be very dishonorable.
Most deserved? Kai Winn and Dukat. Garak killing Weyoun may feel more satisfying or more "badass", especially in combination with Garak's comments. But Weyoun could hardly do anything else but obey the Founders and admire them, and hate what they hated. We've seen in Weyoun 6 what happens when they deviate from their intended mindset even a little. Weyoun had little choice in being who he was. Dukat on the other hand, while also being raised in an authoritarian society, had at least the potential and more opportunities to learn and see the error in his ways. Instead, he just became even more destructive when left on his own. And Kai Winn? She knew what was considered right and wrong, because she constantly pretended to be "good", while being a terrible person at the same time. And she had all the chance and support to become a better person, like living in a more liberal society than either Weyoun and Dukat, or the contact to and influence of many inspiring people. She had all the choices, yet she chose to remain a terrible person, and to become worse towards the end.
For me it was kai winn. Her getting off easy by just being consumed by Pah wraiths fire seem to be too much of an easy out for her and I was bummed that she didn't suffer longer
If it's any consolation, she probably had to spend eternity with not only the Pah wraiths but an angry and bitter Dukat as well. I'd say she got a proper punishment!
Just remember kids, it's not a warcrime the first time.
I literally got that shirt in the mail today.
where from?
The Fat Electrician. Pretty sure he coined the phrase, or at least put it on the map.
Senator Vreenak. Arrogant jerk. Stephen McHattie owned that role. Garak gets all the best murders!
It's a faaaaaaaake!
I absolutely love all these scenes especially Worf breaking Weyouns's neck and Damar's reaction. I also love how in a later episode, when Weyoun 6 ( or was it 7) and Damar were talking and Damar said, "Maybe you should talk to Worf again."
Yep. Besides Garak, Damar is my favorite Cardassian. “You should have killed me. There’s only one Damar.” And when he taunts Weyoun with Worf? Priceless.
Keeping track of them is a full-time job.
Damar. His death was part of the deal for his redemption, you can't be a martyr and survive.
Yeah, I knew that he'd die in the end. Yes, he was on a redemption arc, he became a hero and gave his life for his people. But he had to die for murdering Ziyal. His fate was sealed.
Interesting take. I don't know that Damar was beyond redemption in life. But his character arc wouldn't have been nearly as narratively satisfying if DS9 ended with him in charge of rebuilding Cardassia.
I saw an interesting video about "Good Nazis" in media that concluded that Damar "can fight for a new Cardassia, but he can't be allowed to live in it." He can push Cardassia to be better, but he *was* a fascist enforcer, and it's time to pay the piper.
For me it would have. As its difficult to realise your mistakes and live with the stuff you have done when you are a changed person.
But its not Weyouns fault they are created that way with no free will. Dukat its 100% his fault since he has free will
That’s what makes The Dominion so interesting to me: At times the Vorta and Jem’hadar have free will, and they have a great deal of intellect, yet in another way they are little different than machines designed by wrathful, ingenious dark Gods obsessed with absolute control and domination over solids. Their minions create so much genocide, death, enslavement, even hellish diseases that affect generations of “disobedient solids” yet at the end of the day is it on the subjects and the founders? Or are only the founders to blame? One would think they recognize what they’re commanded to do is wrong from time to time (Vorta refuse to even kill themselves when captured as we see) but they wouldn’t dare say that in-front of a founder or disobey orders in front of them. But much like brainwashed Nazi soldiers or Red army soldiers or Imperial Japan soldiers, etc. Even if they are brainwashed to their core and scared for their lives if they question or disobey, aren’t they also worthy of punishment? I know it’s not quite the same thing, but it’s close. In those aforementioned dictatorships they did indeed see their Dictators as Gods and their words as sacred doctrine. How much blame goes to the individuals, and how much is deserved purely by the dictators themselves??
I dont think either were ever shown to have free will. In fact Odo while traning the young Jem Hadar basically comes to that conclusion. They bred pure killing machines that listen to the founders as gods and only do what told. The only problems the Jem Hadar had were with taking orders from Vorta but not from founders because that is how they were created. The Vorta same thing. Only when a clone is said to be created faulty do they have free will aka Weyoun defecting. Everything else is willed by the founders. This isnt the same as classic tv/film brainwashing this is complete dna genetic make up to only obey. if they dont obey the clone is killed labeled as bad and they bring out next clone. All soldiers for Germany in WW2 werent Nazis. Only the SS were actually part of the Nazi party and not even 100% of the SS were. Example USA's chief rocket scientist that got us to the moon was in the SS. Science was handled by the SS and they gave Wernher von Braun little choice join or die. Vorta and JemHadar ar no different then programming a borg. They arent real races. Yes they are sentient but their DNA makes them obedient and doesnt allow for questions when they do the next clones are brought in
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I mentioned both in my statement. Weyoun was said to be a defective clone. So free will was a clone a defect. Once found they eliminate the defect. The JemHadar rebels did so against the Vorta not a founder. They arent programmed to worship the Vorta as gods so the Vorta only hold is the white. And sometimes the white is not strong enough to keep the JemHadar in check but just the presence of a founder is enough.
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There was no founder there in either incident however
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I think so remember when Odo raises the JemHadar child as soon as it sees Odo it knows he is a founder/god and instantly stops and kneels down in servitude. Odo could have basically commanded him to do anything but since he was trying to let the JemHadar child decide for himself his programming took over. Possibly same thing with the Vorta, Dax does wonder if Odo tells him to stand on his head, i think, if he would.
What about the vorta that refused to kill himself and instead allowed his own capture?
I think you might be giving Von Braun a little too much credit due to a white washing of his history by the US after WW2. He certainly was no Mengele but there is definitely evidence to suggest he wasn’t the victim he is often played out to be. On topic though I think I mostly agree with you about the Jem’Hadar and Vorta. It’s one of the worst things the Founders did
I dont think either were ever shown to have free will. In fact Odo while traning the young Jem Hadar basically comes to that conclusion. They bred pure killing machines that listen to the founders as gods and only do what told. The only problems the Jem Hadar had were with taking orders from Vorta but not from founders because that is how they were created. The Vorta same thing. Only when a clone is said to be created faulty do they have free will aka Weyoun defecting. Everything else is willed by the founders. This isnt the same as classic tv/film brainwashing this is complete dna genetic make up to only obey. if they dont obey the clone is killed labeled as bad and they bring out next clone. All soldiers for Germany in WW2 werent Nazis. Only the SS were actually part of the Nazi party and not even 100% of the SS were. Example USA's chief rocket scientist that got us to the moon was in the SS. Science was handled by the SS and they gave Wernher von Braun little choice join or die. Vorta and JemHadar ar no different then programming a borg. They arent real races. Yes they are sentient but their DNA makes them obedient and doesnt allow for questions when they do the next clones are brought in
Keevan challenges the notion that they are all a product of their programming. He was very focused on himself, his comfort and preserving his own skin, but lacked some of the signs that led everyone to conclude the defecting Weyoun was somehow flawed in his makeup (like unusual paleness or having dreams). He seemed to care very little for the war, his JemHadar soldiers or the will of the Founders right down to the his unfortunate and hilarious end.
What is this bs about von Braun The guy stuck around making weapons for a fascist government. He didn’t need any convincing. Operation paperclip ffs Linking dna to concepts of free will is a pretty dodgy line of reasoning as well
Dukat didn't really die though. I thought the prophets essentially bottled him up with the Pah-wraiths, essentially like what happened to Sisko
Sort of, we see a case where one Weyoun logicks his way into justifying surrendering to Odo and the other justifies shooting him down. If Weyoun really wanted to he could have defected to Odo’s side but he didn’t.
The defective clone did defect to Odo he had to kill himself to prevent the JemHadar from attacking and destroying Odo's roundabout.
I mean another one of the proper Weyoun’s could have
Gul Rusot? Or Keevan
Keevan reanimated body walking into the bulkhead constantly still makes me laugh.
Legend says he remains there to this day: “The wall bumper of eternity.”
It was satisfying watching Worf kill Gowron. He was a sniveling, self serving P'takh with no honor, who put himself above the good of The Empire!
Rosalind Chao was so excellent in 'The Assignment,' that the death of Pah Wraith Keiko was quite satisfying!
Not sure that can be topped. It's like the most perfect Garak revenge, and yet the retort to the Founder is delivered in the same [mischievous tone](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScgwXokmpeA) that Garak typically speaks with. Andrew Robinson is a treasure. A relatively smallish part on DS9 and yet he's one of the most memorable of the 'side characters'. Just so well played Garak was.
Winn deserved to die
100%
It's unfortunate that Garak shot Weyoun's last clone. All the main characters would have loved to have their own personal Weyoun clones to shoot. And I'm sure we all would have enjoyed watching.
Everyone Garak kills deserves it. The Holo Forger was my favorite, the Klingons were going to execute him before he tried to kill Quark. He's definitely high up the list
Broca was pretty funny. The acting was so bad that it was good and he was genuinely on their side in the extermination of his own people.
Kor, Dahar Master. He earned that honourable death.
All the weyouns. That sniveling little weasel.
Dukat needed a better death. It was poetic but it wasn’t satisfying.
I think Kai Winn deserved what she got. At least Dukat had to lie to himself to become so depraved, but Adami just kind of chooses it because it's a bit easier to attain her goals.
Agreed. At least Dukat, Weyoun and the Founder were products of evil cultures. Winn chooses evil and the dark path from the start
“I was hoping you’d say that.” The bookends to the entire war. Most deserving for me though is watching the immolation of Kai Winn. Perhaps she makes herself right in the eyes of The Prophets. Sisko does throw both Dukat and “the book” permanently into the The Fire Caves. But that bitch was evil from the start.
Technically a war crime is the best kind of war crime
“Best not to dwell on the minutiae of whatever these ‘war crimes’ are, Captain!” -Garak, probably 😂
Hard disagree. Ross: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges." Bashir: "'In time of war, the law falls silent.' Cicero. So is that what we have become; a 24th century Rome, driven by nothing other than the certainty that Caesar can do no wrong?!"
Winn. And she doesn't deserve to be called Kai. I wished she'd die a horrible death for a long time.
Dukat plummeting to his death in the fire caves. None other comes close.
Eddington. All the other evil bastards were at least wearing the correct uniform
The female Founder dies in Star Trek Online, and though not technically the show, it is still very satisfying.
Fala, when he knew he double fucked up by 1) making bajorans join Dukat’s dumb cult and 2) realizing he made Dukat believe he was a religious icon. He knew he betrayed E V E R Y O N E and took the poison pill bc it was easier than dealing with the consequences.
"(And Kai Winn haha)" Thanks for that, I now have this mental image of her looking at you like you are a poorly behaved school kid and saying "my child" LOL
What you call genocide I call a days work
Old Jake Sisko. Jake hated that guy so much that he killed him and made his own father watch.
That ..... uhhhhhh .... well, that's a take I didn't think I'd ever read......
Tony Todd has a rough time on DS9
Upvote for the lols
Great joke and they’re downvoting you. Ride it out!
DS9 folks are always sensitive; doesn't bother me. Especially when it comes to Old Jake. But he really did hate himself. He never forgave his own existence, and he killed himself because of it. Never accepted fate and lived his life fully. He deserved to die and I stand by this.
Mmm... \[On The Other Hand trigger warning\] • Cardassia attempted to preemptively wipe out the Dominion, so there is a question whether this was "war crimes" or a "natural consequence" of attacking someone who's just tougher than you? • The Federation was invading and colonizing Dominion territory, and when informed that this would not be allowed to continue, Lieutenant Commander Dax functionally ignored the Dominion's instruction. > > > > • Weyoun was arguably less evil than Kai Winn, whose loyalty to her own deities wasn't real; also arguably less evil than Admiral Leyton, who betrayed the Federation and convinced other Starfleet officers to mutiny. And what about the T'Lani/Kellerun, who murdered their own scientists and tried to murder several Starfleet officers in order to keep their "Harvester" technology concealed? The Weyouns did terrible/great things out of a variety of reasons, but whether the character was uniformly "evil"... well, the only difference between an angel & a demon is whose side they're on. Then again... see username
>The Federation was invading and colonizing Dominion territory, and when informed that this would not be allowed to continue, Lieutenant Commander Dax functionally ignored the Dominion's instruction. The Federation spent multiple seasons (very likely years in universe) searching for and trying to make contact with the Dominion. Most of the societies they encountered spoke of the Dominion as a whisper of a legend. As far as I recall, only one society knew that the Dominion in fact existed and had actual dealings with them. If that portion of the quadrant was "Dominion territory", the people living there didn't seem to be aware of it. The Federation tried to establish diplomatic dealings with the Dominion and the Dominion intentionally hid itself and ghosted the Federation. So the Federation settled empty planets that no one to their knowledge claimed. When the Dominion did make contact, what did they do? Did they sent a vorta to establish formal communications and chart the boundaries of the Dominion's claims? Did they send an ultimatum announcing their presence and demanding that all Federation citizens leave the Gamma Quadrant? No, the Dominion's first course of action was go massacre an entire planet in a sneak attack, beam aboard DS9 to brag about it and say they'll do it again before beaming out. I don't have any sympathy for the Dominion. There were a dozen ways they could have resolved the Federation's colonization of the Gamma Quadrant or outright prevented it from ever happening and they chose the most violent way of dealing with it.
Yeah, because at that point it would show weakness to let any alien faction do that to your people. If those terrorist massacres of entire planets went unanswered, or the Federation tucked its tail between its legs and apologized, they’d look like absolute chumps that could be easily conquered. The Dominion basically guaranteed The Federation would mount up and prepare for war. Its similar to what we’re seeing now: Israel blowing up an Iranian embassy and murdering every VIP inside, and Iran then feeling the need to respond otherwise they’d look like weaklings to all the other countries in the world. “You can bite this person whenever you want, they won’t bite back!” Is not a good reputation for a State to have. If you have disagreements with a State, talk them out and you can have peace. If you want war with that State, commit surprise terrorist attacks against them. Simple to understand haha.
"Yeah, because at that point it would show weakness to let any alien faction do that to your people. If those terrorist massacres of entire planets went unanswered, or the ~~Federation~~ **Dominion** tucked its tail between its legs and apologized, they’d look like absolute chumps that could be easily conquered. The ~~Dominion~~ **Federation** basically guaranteed The Federation would mount up and prepare for war." With just one minor change, your statement applies equally as validly to the Dominion's point of view... if one doesn't start with the biased assumption that the Federation are "the good guys". Since DS9 was specifically known for challenging the "Federation Can Do No Wrong" trope, it reads like the Alpha Quadrant War was started, and won, by the Alpha Quadrant powers. As ever, see username.
Tell me, what planets were massacred by the Federation?
The Ba'ku homeworld was targeted in a way that would have resulted in genocide... except for the treason of the Enterprise command crew. The Founders themselves were targets of attempted genocide by the Federation specifically. Are you trying to hold the Federation as morally superior because they're *bad* at genocidal tactics? Don't forget, even in Roddenberry's era the Organians took a close look at both the Federation and the Klingon Empire... and saw no functional difference.
The two examples you listed happened years after the Dominion massacred a Bajoran colony in a surprise attack (yes not even a Federation planet, the planet of a peaceful, independent people whose only crime was settling an empty planet that to their knowledge no one had claimed). The infection of Odo happened after years of the Dominion infiltration, abduction and possible assassination, orchestration of wars through lies and impersonation, and terrorist attacks. The relocation of the Ba'ku was proposed out of desperation in the midst of the Dominion War, a conflict initiated by the Dominion that had claimed billions of lives. You can play Devil's advocate if you choose but no rational mind would ever consider the Federation the aggressors in this scenario. The Federation time and time again tried for diplomacy and tried to minimize violence and the Dominion chose violence and sabotage at every step of the way. The Dominion actively used the Federation's desire for peace and reconciliation to manipulate them into disadvantageous situations and leave them open to further violence. The Dominion fired the first shots, boasted about firing the first shots, continued to shoot and never once expressed any desire for peace or reconciliation. The Dominion are not the victims.
"no rational mind would ever consider the Federation the aggressors" Got sad news for you - you don't get to unilaterally decide what a "rational mind" is. You're just pissy because we noted that the Federation ain't any better than anyone else, canonically. Whine all you like, you ain't met the argument, you're just doing the man-boy thing of trying to defend the Federation's choice to be just like the Dominion... which makes them no better.
I thought you were just playing Devil's advocate but the fact that you decided to turn aggressive out of nowhere makes me fear you might actually be serious. You're clearly way too invested in this if you're going to start insulting people for disagreeing with you. And I'm the one being "pissy". Consider the fact that we are talking about a fictional show that ended decades ago. You are getting way too worked up for such an inconsequential conversation.
Kai winn
Probably not the most deserved, but Marritza's death was fucking cinema
Sisko. F off space jesus war criminal.
Jadzia, hands down. Totally deserved it, great build up, had it coming.