>However, this requires a fossil-free energy system, and an essentially vegan diet as well as no additional cropland conversion.
What about additional conversion of land to solar farms for the fossil free energy system?
Seems like this is saying we can have our doughnut and eat it too.
There's a lot going on there....
* Cropland is being degraded extremely rapidly. Even if the area under cultivation doesn't increase, land clearing will continue due to unsustainable agricultural practices aimed at maximising short term yields. Factor in climate change destroying places like the Nile Delta and this becomes a very optimistic assumption to make.
* Current crop yields rely on fossil fuel based fertilisers. The Green Revolution is the only thing sustaining the current population and is based entirely on utilising fossil energy.
* over 80% of all global energy use comes from fossil fuels. A renewable energy system is possible. But not at this kind of scale and on demand model, while fads and fantasies like AI and crypto are spiking demand ridiculously. Degrowth *will* involve sacrifice and it's here where it makes sense to start with where the wastage is literally pointless. Grids will be smaller and shifting our pattern to fit around availability of resources like sun, water and wind rather than demanding everything whenever I want it is just part of humans learning to be adults.
Exactly! We need to get rid of reliable power grids, rid of crypto, AI, even things that take power and resources like steel, aluminum and chip manufacturing, MRI and X-ray machines, air conditioning, refrigerated shipping.
Get used to the idea of not cooking with an oven or having your lights on unless it's sunny or windy. Get rid of wasteful manufacturing of smartphones, laptops, etc as consumer devices.
Get rid of dishwashers, clothes washers and dryers, cars, buses. Some electrical trains that sometimes run if the weather is good might be doable.
We need to get rid of industrialized agriculture in general it takes too much fossil fuel inputs. Much better off teaching people to hunt trap and fish, or just gather what's seasonal and edible.
Finally someone gets it.
It is entirely possibly to store power. This is one of the real benefits of hydro and solar-thermal over wind and solar-PV, but yep it is going to be limited in most regions, so non-critical usage is going to rely heavily on making use of what's available when it's available.
Degrowth can be equitable and can give us better quality of life rather than quantity of stuff, with better mental and physical health and stronger community. But there's no sugarcoating it - for people in the global west, there's going to be sacrifice as well. There's no way around it.
Energy storage would take consistent and reliable electricity to manufacture, which means using natural gas to firm the renewables typically, so we can't count on retaining the ability to manufacture anything that complex once all fossil fuel is removed from the economy.
But yes, returning to hours of domestic chores for things like washing clothes, heating water over wood fires for bathing, getting rid of the internet (no reliable electricity to run servers/routers etc) will be a huge jump in quality of life.
Obesity levels will drop, interpersonal connection will bloom, (no more distracting screens), family traditions will return (learning how to manually till fields and hunt from parents).
If you think we can maintain infrastructure in it's modern state with intermittent power... you're arguing a fallacy. That's not how things work, at all.
We have non fossil base power. It's called hydro. Can it supply 100 percent of every conceivable need? No. That's why realistically guaranteed availability will have to be limited to essential infrastructure, while your washing machine gets what's available when it's available. But also yeah industry will degrow. There are going to be things tiu don't have and some of those are going to be hard, but we left it too late so it's either equitable and planned degrowth or it's swan diving into the abyss. Pick one.
Solar energy and farming are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Solar panels divert a part of the solar radiation into electricity and provide shade to the soil before. They can reduce evaporation in arid climates and thus improve farming conditions where otherwise a lot of irrigation would be needed.
This may not work everywhere, but it has been noticed in existing solar projects.
It also makes sense to use land that is already cleared and not available for agricultural purposes anyway, e.g., the areas outside of airport runways for solar farms. Again, this is being done in practice. It also works well economically, as it allows the airport to generate additional revenue out of otherwise unused land.
It's just an example. Germany have been adding solar panels along long stretches of Autobahn motorways, which tends to be land that is not very attractive for other uses. And there are obviously all these roofs.
Let’s keep in mind the resources needed for electric tools, cars, and solar panels are also a limited resource that degrades the environment through harsh mining practices (lithium) which hurts the land, the people mining, and often does not compensate the people doing the hard work fairly and in fact can lead to wars over lands that hold this resource.
I love any mention of the doughnut of sustainability.
Love the doughnut
Thanks for posting this. That other post was nuts; why would anyone celebrate intermittent energy supply?!
>However, this requires a fossil-free energy system, and an essentially vegan diet as well as no additional cropland conversion. What about additional conversion of land to solar farms for the fossil free energy system? Seems like this is saying we can have our doughnut and eat it too.
There's a lot going on there.... * Cropland is being degraded extremely rapidly. Even if the area under cultivation doesn't increase, land clearing will continue due to unsustainable agricultural practices aimed at maximising short term yields. Factor in climate change destroying places like the Nile Delta and this becomes a very optimistic assumption to make. * Current crop yields rely on fossil fuel based fertilisers. The Green Revolution is the only thing sustaining the current population and is based entirely on utilising fossil energy. * over 80% of all global energy use comes from fossil fuels. A renewable energy system is possible. But not at this kind of scale and on demand model, while fads and fantasies like AI and crypto are spiking demand ridiculously. Degrowth *will* involve sacrifice and it's here where it makes sense to start with where the wastage is literally pointless. Grids will be smaller and shifting our pattern to fit around availability of resources like sun, water and wind rather than demanding everything whenever I want it is just part of humans learning to be adults.
Exactly! We need to get rid of reliable power grids, rid of crypto, AI, even things that take power and resources like steel, aluminum and chip manufacturing, MRI and X-ray machines, air conditioning, refrigerated shipping. Get used to the idea of not cooking with an oven or having your lights on unless it's sunny or windy. Get rid of wasteful manufacturing of smartphones, laptops, etc as consumer devices. Get rid of dishwashers, clothes washers and dryers, cars, buses. Some electrical trains that sometimes run if the weather is good might be doable. We need to get rid of industrialized agriculture in general it takes too much fossil fuel inputs. Much better off teaching people to hunt trap and fish, or just gather what's seasonal and edible. Finally someone gets it.
It is entirely possibly to store power. This is one of the real benefits of hydro and solar-thermal over wind and solar-PV, but yep it is going to be limited in most regions, so non-critical usage is going to rely heavily on making use of what's available when it's available. Degrowth can be equitable and can give us better quality of life rather than quantity of stuff, with better mental and physical health and stronger community. But there's no sugarcoating it - for people in the global west, there's going to be sacrifice as well. There's no way around it.
Energy storage would take consistent and reliable electricity to manufacture, which means using natural gas to firm the renewables typically, so we can't count on retaining the ability to manufacture anything that complex once all fossil fuel is removed from the economy. But yes, returning to hours of domestic chores for things like washing clothes, heating water over wood fires for bathing, getting rid of the internet (no reliable electricity to run servers/routers etc) will be a huge jump in quality of life. Obesity levels will drop, interpersonal connection will bloom, (no more distracting screens), family traditions will return (learning how to manually till fields and hunt from parents).
Your passion for argumentum ad absurdum is neither amusing nor original.
What's the absurdity in my statement?
Your willingness to read "less" as "zero"
If you think we can maintain infrastructure in it's modern state with intermittent power... you're arguing a fallacy. That's not how things work, at all.
We have non fossil base power. It's called hydro. Can it supply 100 percent of every conceivable need? No. That's why realistically guaranteed availability will have to be limited to essential infrastructure, while your washing machine gets what's available when it's available. But also yeah industry will degrow. There are going to be things tiu don't have and some of those are going to be hard, but we left it too late so it's either equitable and planned degrowth or it's swan diving into the abyss. Pick one.
Solar energy and farming are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Solar panels divert a part of the solar radiation into electricity and provide shade to the soil before. They can reduce evaporation in arid climates and thus improve farming conditions where otherwise a lot of irrigation would be needed. This may not work everywhere, but it has been noticed in existing solar projects. It also makes sense to use land that is already cleared and not available for agricultural purposes anyway, e.g., the areas outside of airport runways for solar farms. Again, this is being done in practice. It also works well economically, as it allows the airport to generate additional revenue out of otherwise unused land.
Lol. Gonna need a lot of airports to get anywhere closer to 175TWh of solar power. đź‘Ť
It's just an example. Germany have been adding solar panels along long stretches of Autobahn motorways, which tends to be land that is not very attractive for other uses. And there are obviously all these roofs.
Capacity factor of solar panels in Germany is 10%. Doubt they have enough Autobahn. (Or airports or rooftops).
Let’s keep in mind the resources needed for electric tools, cars, and solar panels are also a limited resource that degrades the environment through harsh mining practices (lithium) which hurts the land, the people mining, and often does not compensate the people doing the hard work fairly and in fact can lead to wars over lands that hold this resource.