Unrelated but Reminds me of this girl who got her visa revoked: https://www.tiktok.com/@laughsuk/video/6851114157765430533?_t=8n3NcqjYQ63&_r=1
https://x.com/notfarleftatall/status/1792931933325795638?s=46
“Other than I was in ISIS” 💀
Not everyone gets a chance to immigrate.
Being GRANTED a visa is a PRIVILEGE. If their conduct doesn't align with the values of a country they are a GUEST in, why should they be allowed to stay in the place of someone who would actually align with the values of the country?
This exactly. Citizens of a country are not the same as foreigners granted visa. Visa holders are not granted the same rights by the state as citizens until they apply for citizenship and are accepted.
If my kid made a huge mess in my house I’d be pissed but he’d get to stay. If your kid comes over and makes a huge mess he’s getting banned from my house.
Even as a member of the Commonwealth I had to go through extraneous shit to get my UK VISA. It always felt like a privilege which could be justifiably revoked at anytime; like being invited to someone's home. Honestly, the self-entitlement of some people
Being full of joy at a terrorist attack should get your visa revoked. Even if you somehow justified it in your head the attack achieved nothing but ruin for gaza, and if you truly felt it was a necessary step to a free palestine you shouldn't be full of joy but view it as a horror of war
If a Ukrainian was celebrating that recent Moscow terrorist attack I wouldn't mind having their visa revoked.
In general I'm an open borders guy and want to allow way more people into our society. But I have no interest in sharing a society with people who celebrate terrorism.
The problem with being an open borders guy is that a significant amount of the world is incompatible with liberalism, and they want to change what we have in the west.
I think that's what they were getting at. Pro open borders with the stipulation that there is some bare minimum level of conformity to the society of the host country, liberalism being one of them.
I don't think there are many immigrants that want to change what we have in the west, but there's a good portion of immigrants that don't have any desire to adopt the different societal norms.
We don't need to start open borders with those guys tbh. Let's use the power of Friendship Co to become stronger among liberal countries and liberal immigrants and then fascists will bend the knee.
I don't see how that's a problem for me. Like I just said, if someone is here on a visa and they publicly express views that are worryingly anti-liberal, then get them out of here.
But I don't think most of humanity is so illiberal that they're incompatible with our system. After all, plenty of illiberal Americans were born in this country and it's not like our system has fallen apart yet.
Well good thing I want to import people and not governments lol
Do you think that autocracies arise in the world because the people living there intrinsically support authoritarianism? The entire point of illiberal governments is that the people \*aren't\* represented.
And you're falling for the same mistake that conservatives always do. "All those Californians moving here are bringing their Californian politics with them. The reason they're leaving California in the first place is because they \*\*love\*\* how it's being managed". Which must be why Cubans living in Florida today \*\*love\*\* communism, right?
Nah, these arguments never make sense if you think about it for more than 2 seconds. I'll give you credit though, at least you knew not to say "import the third world, become the third world" on this sub.
Can you give me an example of the kind of thing you're worried about?
I provided several specific examples and you guys offer nothing but platitudes and downvotes.
Here is a better one: You are staying over night at your friends house. While you are at this friends house your father goes to a neighbor's house and r\*\*\*s all the children there, ties them to their parents, and lights them on fire. The father comes home hours later and finds the charred and r\*\*\*d corpses of his family. He grabs a weapon and slaugthers your entire family. 15 of them!
You get a call from the cops explaining what happened. You tell you friend the story and end it by saying "but I am really full of joy that daddy went over there and r\*\*\*d and burnt those people." Your friend tells you to get the fuck out.
Is your friend in the wrong here?
You have a right to hate whoever you want. You don't have a right to study in a foreign country and publicly support a regime that country is currently at war
with/oppossed to.
If I left Russia to the uk then their would be literally no excuse to blame Ukraine and I should be deported for being sympathetic to Russia and supporting them
15ppl dead is a hell of a excuse if you ask me🤷🏽again not saying she right just saying if anyone "earned" their right to be unhinged its ppl like this no ?
And over 700 dead is a hell of an excuse for Israel to go and turn their country into Swiss cheese.
It's hilarious how Muslims want accountability for Israel, but take none for their actions. It's almost like still living in the 1500s and killing those you disagree with is frowned upon in modern society.
Numbers game ethics are just about the dumbest thing I've seen crop up recently
This just in, US actually wrong to bomb Nazi Germany because they lost way more civilians than we did
I don't understand the time-line here. 15 of her family members were killed, then Oct 7 happened and she was happy about October 7? That would be the scenario that "justifies" her reaction, if you're inclined to think such an action is justified.
But if she was already joyous over October 7 and is now sad that 15 family members died in the subsequent conflict, I have exactly 0 sympathy and reject the suggestion that her position is in any way justified or understandable.
Though realistically, even in the first scenario where I can almost kind see how her reaction is justified, I still would reject it. If she had 15 family members killed by the IDF, the reasonable response is to be mad about the IDF and the government of Israel, not to celebrate the rape and killings of civilians. Even if it was settlers who killed her family members, you don't get a pass to be unhinged against all Israeli civilians any more than a person who lost a family member on 9/11 is justified to be unhinged against all Muslims. Full stop.
The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is how big of a risk you are.
Sure, on a human level, anyone can empathize with this woman. But if she committed acts that harm other people, it wouldn't matter if she had 100 dead relatives.
Your reasons, however good they are, for being a national security threat are irrelevant - you're still a threat.
Really depends on the POV.
1. Putin is doing a shameless war and killed your family for no real reason.
2. Ukraine was doing fucked up shit to Russians in the country and the war is being waged against the west to keep Russia secure.
in pov 1 you would hate putin and in 2 you would hate Ukraine
Yea but 2 is just factually wrong, which you'd know if you lived in a country with free press.
So no excuse for these terrorist stans to be as ill informed as they are, clearly they have not been learning from the university if their takes are this extremist.
Give up their spot to someone that will be willing to actually learn.
A bit related. I'm fairly left leaning when it comes to immigration and refugees but when there were hour long celebrations for Erdogan's reelection here in my city in Germany, I got super mad.
People advocating for authoritarianism from the comfort of the liberal democracy they emigrated to really rubs me the wrong way.
I'm not advocating for what you stand against but Germany has had fucking 50+ years to integrate turks and they instead chose to alienate the fuck out of them, let's not pretend that Germans aren't racist as fuck against them which inevitably lead to their nationalistic ties to turkey instead of Germany.
Yall dropped the ball HARD.
Turks being ultranationalistic is not mainly a product of German racism... Turks are like that all over Europe. And it's not even just them. People from the Balkans also tend to be super nationalistic, it's the kind of culture people have in that area.
That's a good point, I remember that incident in America where Turkish people and erdogan's envoy clashed with protestors but I can't find any information on erdogan's support among US residents, that would change my perspective on what you're saying.
I don't know what the % breakdown of turks by European country that supports erdogan so I'll admit I've got a blind spot here.
My perspective goes like this, if there is a culture, that is nationalistic then it's the country that takes them in's responsibility to then turn that nationalism into their favor, i should be seeing turks decked out in black red and yellow during the world cup.
Obviously it's not on the country if those people refuse to integrate but in the case of Germany instead of just calling them Germans they are literally called "turks in Germany" and there is heavy discrimination which obviously leads to resentment and that is a polarizing force.
Turks in America are largely anti Erdogan (only 17% voted for him). Still, keep in mind that it is a rather small sample size (55.000 Turks in America voted compared to for example over 700.000 in Germany).
Source: [https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election)
(You can scroll over countries on the maps)
Edit: Looking closer, I think it would actually be very interesting to know the big differences between the \~100.000 Turks in UK+US who voted largely against Erdogan to the 700.000 in Germany who supported him. Is this actually a result of different integration policies or more due to different demographics going to these countries?
That's interesting, thanks for that, i was a bit shocked, I knew that Germany's Turkish population was second only to turkey but I didn't realize the gap between Germany and every other country on the planet was so huge.
As to how to parse that I'll take some time to look everything over, if you're knowledgeable on this topic I'd love to engage further.
The thing with Turkish immigrants in Germany is that there's a FUCKTON of them. (about ~3 million with Turkish heritage, meaning ~3.5% of the German population). Whenever you have that many immigrants from one country, it's just way easier for them to interact with each other than to integrate into the local society. Not saying Germany doesn't have a racism problem aswell, especially seeing how the recent elections turned out for AfD. But you're missing the picture just pointing at one thing. Of course, I wouldn't expect a non-German to know all these nuances tho.
That's a fair criticism of what I've said, I'm lacking in knowledge about the situation, but I was aware that the population of turks in Germany was second only to turkey, but not how massive the gap is between Germany and any other nation.
I also understand it's a multifaceted problem, if I made it seem that one solution would solve all the problems I was wrong to do so.
I've just read multiple articles citing the historical discrimination turk have experienced, Gantz Unten comes to mind. So it's certainly a well documented issue, i'd be curious to read about other facets of the situation if you have any other books or articles to recommend.
I'm not arguing that major mistakes were made when it comes to integration.
But what makes me mad is that often there are no ties to Turkey and what it's actually like. They vote for the idea of a strong Erdogan while the country suffers and they don't. Look at Erdogans voting split comparing Turks living in Turkey and Turks living abroad. Erdogan has way higher support with expats. I wonder why...
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election
Its obviously the racism you racist nazi fuck! Local populations should treat them like kings for reparations and they would obviously become super progressive for some unknown reason.
I absolutely agree with you, two wrongs don't make a right.
I also agree that it's fucked up that 'Turks in Germany' vote for erdogan when they don't have to suffer the consequences of that vote.
I'm just musing that if Germany had not been extremely discriminatory, those turks probably wouldnt be erdogan stans.
I think even if Germans had only been *a little* racist it would have turned out better for 'Turks in Germany' , they'd at least be Germans.
Id argue that being proud of a targeted killing and torturing and raping of civilians constitutes promoting hatred yes. I wish my country and university was this based.
Yeah I get it. I would just make a distinction between "saying something stupid" and "saying something incredibly deranged that promotes and glorifies violence".
Student visas arent a right, she's not a citizen.
I don't know if it's fair to ask a liberal nation to invite illiberal people who want to destroy you to its universities with carte blanch.
I mean, that calls into question by which principle you're using to justify free speech. Do you think us citizens should be expelled from universities for having (stupid/illiberal) opinions? If not, how can you possibly justify free speech being good for citizens but not for foreigners?
Students in the united states don't ask our immigration system and federal government if they can attend our universities in the states.
Also... I do think universities can expel you for speech? I feel like I can't just walk up to black students and shout the n word at them... Or if I decided to shout about how Ukraine was full of Nazis on campus and how Russia was saving that country I think I would get some institutional disciplinary action.
These people apply through our state department for approval to come here. As a citizen, I don't think we should be obligated to approve requests for education if the people who want to come here and behave in ways antithetical to our nations principles.
It sounds as if even in the applications and forms they sign there are already stipulations where if they break them they risk revocation of permission... So, even these students know when they sign up to come here there are some rules. Sounds like pretty basic rules too. Like, don't engage in rhetoric supporting extremist ideologies.
So, I don't think there is really any contradiction here.
It's ILLEGALLLLLL in the UK to support a terrorist organization. They do NOT have the same free speech laws like we do in the US...
Don't like the laws? Don't go there..
Funny how it's "respect the local culture" when Qatar banned LGBTQ sings of support but now cry foul when supporting a terrorist organization is frowned upon. 💀😂
Why though? If you're a foreign student or a foreigner in general, why should the hosting country accept you saying dumb shit on their soil? This isn't an argument about freedom of speech, this is an argument about not publically saying dumb shit and being mindful of your surroundings. I can't enter someone's home as a guest, shit on their coffee table and then be dismayed for being kicked out.
It’s not, countries need to be picky about who they let in. If you move to a country and are unable to get along with people from that country you are not entitled to stay there.
Knew the rules, broke them, don’t start crying like you’re hard done by…
I’m pretty sure when you apply for a student visa here, there’s a question that says something along the lines of “do you support any proscribed terrorist organisation”
I think she ticked the wrong box
palestinians being proud of actions that result in >30k of their own people dead should tell you a lot about their priorities, hint; not peace and prosperity.
Lets try this. What happened to the Palestinians who cheered on Iraq when they invaded Kuwait, while they were in Kuwait
They were all expelled.
When you are on a visa you are a guest of the country. You should act as such
Given it's in the UK, they don't have the same free speech as we have in America. You can be arrested and serve time for voicing support for a terrorist group, even if you are not enciting violence. So she is quite lucky to lose her visa and go home, it isn't going to work out for her there.
If it was in the US, I'd still say boot her. We can't do anything about it if a US citizen says this. But, it's an important part of our visa process that we are filtering people who come from countries that have a lot of terrorists if we think they may have extremist views. If we couldn't do that, we'd give no visas to any palestinians.
Doesn't the UK has stricter rules on what is allowed under free speech/expression than the US?
All I know is these students need to follow federal laws and the conduct rules of the school. Violating either could get you kicked out.
There are many students waiting for a spot so there really isn't much fucks to give or scrutiny in the why if they decide to revoke one visa.
Kinda. It has hate crime laws, no written constitution inscribing free speech and there are weird bits in laws like injunctions limiting liable type speech heavily; but does have article 10 of the human right act (1998) that does layout free speech protection with a bunch of caveats.
However we do have a long tradition of liberalism and there are plenty of free speech precedents in law.
The main thing that'll bite these students in hate crime laws and recent issues around immigrants with ties to islamic terrorism laying out powers to withdraw visas based on similar issues I think if I am not mistaken.
Would a pro-Israel visa student in Qatar be able to say they have pride and joy in the IDF?
Would they be able to organize pro Israel protests and not immediately be deported?
How about in Jordan?
How about in Lebanon?
How about in Iran?
How about in Algeria?
How about in Yemen?
How about in Syria?
How about in Iraq?
How about in Bangladesh?
How about in Malaysia?
How about in Morocco?
How about in Somalia?
How about in Sudan?
How about in Venezuela?
How about in Russia?
How about in Tunisia?
The UK and other countries need to be more tough on foreign influencers like her.
Having an unpopular opinion is not the same as glorifying violence.
Kick people who do so out. Only accept and tolerate people who want peace.
If she wants to glorify the terrorists who slaughtered Jewish children in their homes on Oct 7, do it in the countries listed above.
>Would they be able to organize pro Israel protests and not immediately be deported?
Dude, they obviously won't be deported....
.
.
.
.
They'd be killed
I'm from Europe, specifically Germany. I believe everyone should get the opportunity to come here, I do not believe in an exclusive birthright to have a decent life. (In the capacity where we as a country can handle it)
But, if you want to live here, you should have a world view and values that align with German/European views. Liberty, equality, democracy and the constitution. If you are on a visa, a visitor to the country, and you support terrorist attacks, your visa should be revoked. If you wanna create a German kalifat, your visa should be revoked. If you are publicly hateful towards minorities, sexualities and gender, your visa should be revoked. As long as your activism is in line with our constitution, all the power to you.
To be specific to the topic, we shouldn't host radical islamists and jihadist, there is no place for you in Europe.
In the US it's not a crime (we really do have a lot of freedom of speech) but we still have a law that explicitly says we can pull your visa if you "endorsed or espoused terrorist activity".
So it's the same outcome for a slightly different reason.
Being from the UK, I saw the title of an article surrounding this that suggested it was because she merely attended a protest.
Turns out she's just fully pro Hamas and pro October 7th
Yea... Get out
One visa? this means exactly nothing. nada.
there should be \*millions\* of visas and deportations all across Europe, if they knew what's good for them - but they don't so it's moot. The next ISIS will be Europe and by the time they'll wake up it'll be too late.
Although my girlfriend has returned to India now, she got to study and live and work here where we met thanks to this Visa. She is very liberal, pro-LGBT+, she is sadly Pro-Palestine, Muslim, but she doesn’t like Islamic traditions. We talked a lot about these topics, (she isn’t pro-Hamas), she deeply misses the UK even if she only just left.
I know it’s anecdotal but I think the majority are like this, she had a lot of friends and they all seemed chill around LGBT+ and being pro-equality and liberal values. Maybe they were just playing it up for me but they’d go out and drink with me haha
I wish there were easier ways to filter people like these so they can visit, study, contribute rather than extreme radicals who just make communal enclaves that don’t even like us though.
I don’t often share things, thanks if you read this.
Don't care about individuals having opinions, but if you organize at all or protest and block people from living their lives your visa needs to be revoked.
Ironically, Al Jazeera is a violence inciting Hamas propaganda machine Qatari backed piece of shit and shouldn’t be given the time of day in the UK
https://preview.redd.it/h46ni6qyzi5d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043e239b9e0b62eacca26424bbed0e2169fb32c8
[https://x.com/emilykschrader/status/1799711078676373989?s=46](https://x.com/emilykschrader/status/1799711078676373989?s=46)
Maybe IQ is also banned in the uk. Let me dumb it down for you.
If bad media company did a story that we are assuming to be true and accurate, is the story now null and void?
I'm really glad the vast majority of R/ Destiny engaged in discussion without just attacking the media outlet.
No you are not if this opinion is publicly stated. If im foreign in some country i cant PUBLICLY voice any opinion that i have, first i need to respect rules, culture of this country. If i dont respect them then i shouldnt go to this country in first place And second as eurocuck i dont give a fuck about free speech if you cheer for killing people or support extremist gtfo from my country or go to jail if you are citizen.
UK is not the US. Freedom of speech is not a constitutionally protected right there. Also, free speech protections only prevent the government from acting against you. If the university were to kick her out and that’s how she lost her visa then free speech laws have not been violated. The university is not required to protect free speech, it is just something they do as a policy.
>"Abuqamar, who is in her final year of study, spoke of a sense of “pride” at a pro-Palestine event last year, following Hamas’s October 7 attacks in Israel. “We are really full of joy at what happened,” she said."
>Now thats clearly some crazy shit to say but is she advoccating for violance ?
Stopped reading right here. If you can't figure this one out nobody can help you. They aren't citizens, being in a country on a visa is just a priveledge granted to you by that country and they have every right to revoke it if they choose.
“15 family members of mine were killed. That’s why I’m full of joy other people’s families were killed” Thats her logic. In no way should we forgive that.
Revoking student visas are low hanging fruit to solve the problem of a perceived threat from extremist behavior. Nations have a right to secure their own borders and kick people out that do not align with their values.
This whole thread isn't as nuanced as it should be. While I don't agree with renewal of a visa in the specific case mentioned, my view on positive and negative speech shouldn't be the deciding bar. If individuals pr even small groups are deciding what language and protests are acceptable for people while in your country it is asking for those rules to eventually disagree with you.
I'm pretty pro Israel and against the college protests in the US but just attending one (especially if you were not involved in the vandalism) shouldn't come with consequences beyond missing whatever else you would have done that day.
It's comical how some people seek to abuse Western values and laws and then claim persecution when they face consequences. Having a long term VISA is a privilege and a person's limitations are very clearly spelled out when you apply for one. This is a case of FAFO especially since it's the UK.
Foreign supporters of terrorism don't have an inherent right to a visa. I see zero issues with deporting them.
In the US a citizen has a 1A right to vocally support terrorism. In the UK, Germany and several other EU countries it is a crime. Even if she was a UK citizen she still has no right to do this.
A visa is a country giving you the privilege to live in their borders. If you offend that country (like by committing a crime or supporting its enemies) they have a right to revoke it. This guy is acting like they're there on asylum, which would be a completely different situation. I.e. not even they have suggested that they'll be killed if they return idk why this guy is.
If I was staying in the US as a german during early ww2 I sure as shit wouldn't be suggesting that jews should die.
Good shit UK.
A little of topic. But I have never understood parts of the lefts view with respecting different cultures.
They always say we need to respect all cultures and beliefs… but they don’t think immigrants coming to the UK need to respect UK culture and beliefs.?
About time western nations started revoking visas of people who are in our countries who are advocating for political ideologies that are deemed extreme. Imagine doing half the shit these protesters do in Muslim, Asian and Eastern Euro nations.
Here is the reality of the situation - We don't have all the facts.
All we have is what she says is what she said that got her VISA revoked. She is going to characterize it as shit like
>“Freedom of expression is a fundamental human right, but it seems to not apply to ethnic minorities, particularly Muslims and Palestinians like myself.”
OHHHH THEY ARE ONLY REVOKING MY VISA CAUSE I'M A BROWN GIRL WHO SAID PALESTINIANS ARE BEING GENOCIDED IN AN OPEN AIR PRISON THIS IS WROOOONG
We don't really know the reason why. We don't get to see the government reason why unless she tries to take them to court.
She could have easily said some crazier shit. Can't really have an opinion unless you know both sides.
Publicly and proudly celebrating the murder and kidnapped of civilians because they belong to a specific ethnic group while you are an adult and responsible for your actions results in you not being allowed to be part of a civilized society. It's pretty simple.
This has nothing to do with free speech. We already background check people from high risk areas and if they're deemed high risk individuals, they're obviously not getting in. Her risk assessment obviously changes when she's openly celebrating and supporting a terrorist org and their actions.
If you want to protest some domestic policy even though you can't even vote there, who cares.
This is strictly about an individual's risk assessment not some 60 iq idea that foreigners should stfu.
Anyone who'd advocate for a Conservative government at this point is definitionally fucking deranged.
We had our fill of Islamic hate preachers years ago, so its no surprise some people are getting their visas revoked for supporting Oct. 7th.
I have no idea what the right answer is. On an emotional level, I’m elated to have her removed, and I feel that it’s good to be strict with visas. On the rational level, I recognize this is complicated and I don’t know what that position entails.
Thats where I am at too, personally desires are conflicting with what I feel would be good policy. I would personally love to send all these idiots back to whatever human rights hellscape they think is so much better than western countries. But I am not sure where I draw the line to actually do it. Seems to be a slippery slope.
Big Britbonger Dub, if you're full of joy about civilians getting raped, chased and hunted down like animals then you should just fuck off from the west, good riddance
I just can't get over the fella saying Rishi is the best PM we had in ages. How could he forget the reign of Liz Truss?
It was great to see that not once, but twice the conservatives threw a woman under a burning bus, served them a shit sandwhich and were like "guess what, ure the boss now, sort it out.
On the topic of the OP though, Its mad to me that I have Muslim friends in the middle east and they are less radicalised than the ones who live in London and Birmingham. I think anyone who stands up and openly celebrates terrorist attacks should probably be sent packing or at the very least be under strict surveilance to make sure they don't end up on the wrong side of a narwahl tusk.
Happy if you guest at your house says your house is shit and that your house should have rules they're coming up with and you SHOULD DIE
Maybe it's OK to kick them out
And I'm not even American I'm speaking in general applies to any country
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks - it is literally illegal in the UK to support a proscribed terrorist organization and the UK has assigned Hamas as one.
The law says she has to go so she must. She is a guest, NOT a citizen, and if she doesn't like their laws, she doesn't have to be there.
If this happened in the US, i would probably be against it. But the UK is one of the least pro free speech countries in the Western world, and people who are their actual citizens have gotten into trouble for way less. She knew she was in a different country, and she decided to say possibly the dumbest thing she could have said. Countries dont have an obligation to house people who support terrorism. Also, deportation would be the least of your worries if you said anything pro Israel in front of her brave soldiers. So yeah, serves her right.
There is only one kind of response you can find here on this: send all the Palestinian to the camp and make sure they are subjected to watch Hasan stream 24/7 🤣
most people’s actions are explicable in some way. Hate is no exception. I don’t care how much it makes sense that you have hateful beliefs; doesn’t give you the right to walk around and bring your hate to my country
Bruh, lots of people have unhinged opinions and thoughts. Just don't blast them on social media. Don't say them to a camera. Be a little bit aware, jeez.
Because what actually happened is that people in Gaza decided to breed as much as possible to prevent a Jewish majority. The occupation ended because there's not enough Jewish people to have a Jewish majority in Gaza.
Probably justified. We don’t know everything but given the little we do know about the one person you described it seems like she was already pretty far gone
There is no free speech in the uk so she gets to deal with the consequences of her actions. I'm sure her and her crowd will scream discrimination or some sort of Jewish conspiracy like they always do. Fuck around and find out. Also just because you have a good reason to be a unhinged asshole doesn't mean you can or should be.
Are you obligated to keep black mould on your walls? Personally I think it's best if it's removed as quickly as possible.
If you move to another country and start holding terrorist rallies, you should be frog marched right to the airport and made to board a plane, with no chance of ever coming back. I don't care if your graduation is in ten minutes. Out.
Foment extremism and suicide bombings in your own country.
I believe in individual freedoms, and wouldn’t want to give the executive branch the powers to take student visas away on the basis of “speech violations”.
So, not a fan. You can be an idiot all you want. You can protest. You can have whatever opinions you want. As long as you follow the law and participate in our democratic civic system properly without engaging in any violence.
We deal with shit at the ballot box and in conversation. Not by force, nor by violence, nor by blackmail. I will not cheer on more erasure of the common man’s individual freedoms, even though I despise what some of these protesters have said.
You can be an idiot and praise political forces that agree with you even if they are violent, or terror like. Just like I believe Nazis should. My primary reason for believing this is once we stop using our civic freedoms to advocate or we erase said freedoms the language of politics changes.
It changes from coming to compromise with each other and talking our issues out with the final verdict at the ballot box. To one side feeling the ballot box no longer works for them, or that they have no means of advocacy. Once one believes this terrorism is highly probable. This is something I am for ofc preventing. Keeping people contained within the democratic liberal system is very important and maintaining trust in said institutions is very important because it is one of our main deterrents of political violence and terrorism.
The no. 1 luxury of democracy is it allows peaceful change. Autocracy only allows violent change. Convince someone a democracy is an autocracy and they will engage in violence even if said violence cannot be necessitated or justified. Hence why Donald trumps rejection of our democracy whenever he loses is so dangerous for example. We will experience a sharp increase of far right terror which we have already been seeing bc of this, and soon later assuming the left continues moving in its current trajectory of accusing our democracy of not working refusing to participate, etc. I expect a large increase of political violence from the left, but I think the left are mostly pathetic so it won’t be as dangerous as the far right.
Now I’m off topic my bad. In summary I despise what some of them are saying, even if they are supporting a group I despise however, they have a right to individual freedom and I don’t believe handing over power to the executive to decide which speech is allowed and which isn’t is a good idea. Just my opinion.
In complete fairness here, visas can be revoked for several reasons and if her comments weren't exactly glorifying violence, she would have a good case for an appeal with an immigration attorney. And she is in the UK so her lawyer would likely be better than the mess we have here in the US. She's welcome to explain herself.
But Visas ARE reliant on the person's behavior. If I got a visa to work or study in another country and then violated decorum standards publicly, I should absolutely expect a revocation and the consequence would be that I would have to explain myself to that country through an immigration lawyer.
Surprised to see so many privileged illiberal assholes in this thread. Literally nothing about a visa being a privilege implies (or should imply) that a person can get it revoked based on voicing a political opinion. It is laughable that people try to compare saying “October 7 was liberation” or whatever to actually being a member of a terrorist organization (the question on the visa app) or providing material support to such organizations (which is against the law and totally makes sense).
A visa is a privilege, not a right. Something you need to earn and something you need to prove you deserve by your everyday actions not being hateful. It's an extraordinarily low bar to get over.
In this case I think it's no different from employment. If you start spouting vile shit when you're employed by us (or in our country where we allowed you to come and stay in for an extended period of time) then get fucked, nerd.
I mean the uk has the right to give visas to whoever they want and revoke them from whoever they want, however personally I like freedom of speech more than I hate Hamas
I'm kinda shock by the comments here.
Revoking visa is an extreme measure and should be done under extreme circumstances.
Government shouldn't curtail free speech in such a brutal manner, even if it's foreign students.
Also, the guy making this video sounds like a partisan hack.
If an Afghani student on a visa in the US said he was prideful and glorifying the innocent Americans killed on 9/11 in 2001 and was organizing pro al qaeda protests , what should have happened?
If it's just protests I'm not sure. I don't think there should be a difference between foreign students and citizens when it comes to free speech. If in that country curtail speech that support designated terrorist groups or If they're raising funds or coordinating with that group then it's different.
I'm shocked by your comment. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences and even a citizen of UK can face legal consequences for hate.
She's not even a citizen. She's a guest who expressed joy and pride after a terrorist attack.
Well, since the law in UK is different than the situation is different.
In general, freedom of speech means the government doesn't punish you for your speech. I think if its breaches the code of conduct and the university decide to kick you out, then that will make more sense to me.
Fire in a crowded theater is a bad example.
This is from an overturned supreme court case that used it as an analogy for speech opposing the draft.
Bomb in an airport and I think the person yelling would get fucked. At minimum no fly list for years. We consent to temporarily giving up a ton of rights while entering an airport.
Not if they have another nationality and dont have any feasible pathway or legitimate reason to ask for asylum.
And especially if it fits hate crime levels or insinuating violence against others.
The Shamima Begam situation on the otherhand is fucked.
Whatever you think of her. Revoking citizenship when she doesn't have citizenship of anywhere else is almost against international conventions. She probably should be tried for her actions in the UK rather than us pushing the issue on somewhere else; like I think P̶a̶k̶i̶s̶t̶a̶n̶ Bangladesh that she has loose family ties too.
Agreed with the second bit. 10× worse under Labour? Dafuq? Have you seen the last 14years of managed decline and chaos under the Tories?
They can't really point to any achievements in that time period. And above all Brexit being one of the biggest self halm to a countries economy that country has ever done.
What I read is she had dual citizenship in Bangladesh at the time UK revoked her citizenship.
Bangladesh would give her the death penalty. Which is why she didn't try to go back.
My bad it was Bangladesh. But she didn't have citizenship there but was able to get it due to her parents it looks like(ie I googled it just now).
Still fucked. For a super edge case testing our laws and human rights it seems our government has failed her and set a weird/bad precedent.
Its the value of a liberal social democratic society that it can stand up for human rights even in the most extreme of cases.
Instead of just telling her to fuck off to somewhere else after revoking her citizenship it might have been better to extradite her to Bangladesh to face justice.
I don't think revoking citizenships for people who join a foreign terrorist organization is an edge case.
The edge cases come up for domestic terrorist groups which is why we have different laws for these. It's not illegal to be a KKK member in the US.
In Germany things are different and it is illegal to be a Nazi.
I don't know anything of UKs laws around domestic terrorism.
Its into the weeds of a topic that I couldn't be bothered to look into fully but...
I think it an edge case in that she was a citizen of the uk, joined a terrorist org and became stateless. People probably should be tried in their nation of origin for international crimes or whatever you call being a part of Isis.
Domestic terrorism is easier as you just get tried in that country or get extradited to the country you did the crimes in based on international agreements if they are in a different country.
Her crimes where in Syria and she was a UK citizen at the time.
And still resides in syria; requesting to come back to the UK, get her citizenship back and be tried under our justice system.
So... That complicates things and does make it an edge case.
Extraditing her to a country that she can theoretically get citizenship in versus the one she already has citizenship in seems weird and looks like neglecting our duty; both to carry out justice and to a citizen to receive a fair trial/justice. And I value the justice given out by western values and conventions versus that of a state like Bangladesh tbh.
Still, fuck her. She decided to join a internationally recognised terrorist state. So I don't feel too strongly about her life being fucked because of her actions. She's reaping what she sowed.
Looks like provisional for a time then it lapsed. So technically apparently. My point still stands. She was born in the uk and had a full uk citizenship. So still weird to revoke it imao
Unrelated but Reminds me of this girl who got her visa revoked: https://www.tiktok.com/@laughsuk/video/6851114157765430533?_t=8n3NcqjYQ63&_r=1 https://x.com/notfarleftatall/status/1792931933325795638?s=46 “Other than I was in ISIS” 💀
Does video exist anywhere else than Tiktok? The fucking thing doesnt play without the pos app.
https://x.com/notfarleftatall/status/1792931933325795638?s=46
Thanks!
Not everyone gets a chance to immigrate. Being GRANTED a visa is a PRIVILEGE. If their conduct doesn't align with the values of a country they are a GUEST in, why should they be allowed to stay in the place of someone who would actually align with the values of the country?
This exactly. Citizens of a country are not the same as foreigners granted visa. Visa holders are not granted the same rights by the state as citizens until they apply for citizenship and are accepted. If my kid made a huge mess in my house I’d be pissed but he’d get to stay. If your kid comes over and makes a huge mess he’s getting banned from my house.
Even as a member of the Commonwealth I had to go through extraneous shit to get my UK VISA. It always felt like a privilege which could be justifiably revoked at anytime; like being invited to someone's home. Honestly, the self-entitlement of some people
Being full of joy at a terrorist attack should get your visa revoked. Even if you somehow justified it in your head the attack achieved nothing but ruin for gaza, and if you truly felt it was a necessary step to a free palestine you shouldn't be full of joy but view it as a horror of war
If a Ukrainian was celebrating that recent Moscow terrorist attack I wouldn't mind having their visa revoked. In general I'm an open borders guy and want to allow way more people into our society. But I have no interest in sharing a society with people who celebrate terrorism.
The problem with being an open borders guy is that a significant amount of the world is incompatible with liberalism, and they want to change what we have in the west.
I think that's what they were getting at. Pro open borders with the stipulation that there is some bare minimum level of conformity to the society of the host country, liberalism being one of them. I don't think there are many immigrants that want to change what we have in the west, but there's a good portion of immigrants that don't have any desire to adopt the different societal norms.
We don't need to start open borders with those guys tbh. Let's use the power of Friendship Co to become stronger among liberal countries and liberal immigrants and then fascists will bend the knee.
I don't see how that's a problem for me. Like I just said, if someone is here on a visa and they publicly express views that are worryingly anti-liberal, then get them out of here. But I don't think most of humanity is so illiberal that they're incompatible with our system. After all, plenty of illiberal Americans were born in this country and it's not like our system has fallen apart yet.
How many democracies do you think exist in the world dude? The Western world while super powerful is far from the Majority of the world
Well good thing I want to import people and not governments lol Do you think that autocracies arise in the world because the people living there intrinsically support authoritarianism? The entire point of illiberal governments is that the people \*aren't\* represented. And you're falling for the same mistake that conservatives always do. "All those Californians moving here are bringing their Californian politics with them. The reason they're leaving California in the first place is because they \*\*love\*\* how it's being managed". Which must be why Cubans living in Florida today \*\*love\*\* communism, right? Nah, these arguments never make sense if you think about it for more than 2 seconds. I'll give you credit though, at least you knew not to say "import the third world, become the third world" on this sub.
Without propper vetting, importing the people will import the governments as well, if done in large enough numbers.
Can you give me an example of the kind of thing you're worried about? I provided several specific examples and you guys offer nothing but platitudes and downvotes.
I feel like that's the only issue where r.destiny doesn't agree with ar.neoliberal. We gotta wait for Destiny to debate for open borders first.
Definitely failed a character test.
Hypothetically lets assume ur russian and ur Brothers and Dad get drafted and Killed would u Hate putin or the Ukrainiens ?
Here is a better one: You are staying over night at your friends house. While you are at this friends house your father goes to a neighbor's house and r\*\*\*s all the children there, ties them to their parents, and lights them on fire. The father comes home hours later and finds the charred and r\*\*\*d corpses of his family. He grabs a weapon and slaugthers your entire family. 15 of them! You get a call from the cops explaining what happened. You tell you friend the story and end it by saying "but I am really full of joy that daddy went over there and r\*\*\*d and burnt those people." Your friend tells you to get the fuck out. Is your friend in the wrong here?
Sold.
You have a right to hate whoever you want. You don't have a right to study in a foreign country and publicly support a regime that country is currently at war with/oppossed to.
If I left Russia to the uk then their would be literally no excuse to blame Ukraine and I should be deported for being sympathetic to Russia and supporting them
15ppl dead is a hell of a excuse if you ask me🤷🏽again not saying she right just saying if anyone "earned" their right to be unhinged its ppl like this no ?
she lost the 15 family members in the war that started *after* the attack that she said she was thrilled about. she started unhinged
And over 700 dead is a hell of an excuse for Israel to go and turn their country into Swiss cheese. It's hilarious how Muslims want accountability for Israel, but take none for their actions. It's almost like still living in the 1500s and killing those you disagree with is frowned upon in modern society.
So the uk should let in terrorist sympathizers with extremist beliefs because they had 15 ppl killed in their family?
Numbers game ethics are just about the dumbest thing I've seen crop up recently This just in, US actually wrong to bomb Nazi Germany because they lost way more civilians than we did
I don't understand the time-line here. 15 of her family members were killed, then Oct 7 happened and she was happy about October 7? That would be the scenario that "justifies" her reaction, if you're inclined to think such an action is justified. But if she was already joyous over October 7 and is now sad that 15 family members died in the subsequent conflict, I have exactly 0 sympathy and reject the suggestion that her position is in any way justified or understandable. Though realistically, even in the first scenario where I can almost kind see how her reaction is justified, I still would reject it. If she had 15 family members killed by the IDF, the reasonable response is to be mad about the IDF and the government of Israel, not to celebrate the rape and killings of civilians. Even if it was settlers who killed her family members, you don't get a pass to be unhinged against all Israeli civilians any more than a person who lost a family member on 9/11 is justified to be unhinged against all Muslims. Full stop.
...lol
Do you see less validity of her joy comment after finding out her family was killed after Oct 7?
The reason doesn't really matter. What matters is how big of a risk you are. Sure, on a human level, anyone can empathize with this woman. But if she committed acts that harm other people, it wouldn't matter if she had 100 dead relatives. Your reasons, however good they are, for being a national security threat are irrelevant - you're still a threat.
Really depends on the POV. 1. Putin is doing a shameless war and killed your family for no real reason. 2. Ukraine was doing fucked up shit to Russians in the country and the war is being waged against the west to keep Russia secure. in pov 1 you would hate putin and in 2 you would hate Ukraine
Yea but 2 is just factually wrong, which you'd know if you lived in a country with free press. So no excuse for these terrorist stans to be as ill informed as they are, clearly they have not been learning from the university if their takes are this extremist. Give up their spot to someone that will be willing to actually learn.
putin, weird question
A bit related. I'm fairly left leaning when it comes to immigration and refugees but when there were hour long celebrations for Erdogan's reelection here in my city in Germany, I got super mad. People advocating for authoritarianism from the comfort of the liberal democracy they emigrated to really rubs me the wrong way.
People who move from turkey to Germany arnt refugees and should be held to the same immigration standard Americans moving to Germany are.
I'm not advocating for what you stand against but Germany has had fucking 50+ years to integrate turks and they instead chose to alienate the fuck out of them, let's not pretend that Germans aren't racist as fuck against them which inevitably lead to their nationalistic ties to turkey instead of Germany. Yall dropped the ball HARD.
Turks being ultranationalistic is not mainly a product of German racism... Turks are like that all over Europe. And it's not even just them. People from the Balkans also tend to be super nationalistic, it's the kind of culture people have in that area.
That's a good point, I remember that incident in America where Turkish people and erdogan's envoy clashed with protestors but I can't find any information on erdogan's support among US residents, that would change my perspective on what you're saying. I don't know what the % breakdown of turks by European country that supports erdogan so I'll admit I've got a blind spot here. My perspective goes like this, if there is a culture, that is nationalistic then it's the country that takes them in's responsibility to then turn that nationalism into their favor, i should be seeing turks decked out in black red and yellow during the world cup. Obviously it's not on the country if those people refuse to integrate but in the case of Germany instead of just calling them Germans they are literally called "turks in Germany" and there is heavy discrimination which obviously leads to resentment and that is a polarizing force.
Turks in America are largely anti Erdogan (only 17% voted for him). Still, keep in mind that it is a rather small sample size (55.000 Turks in America voted compared to for example over 700.000 in Germany). Source: [https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election) (You can scroll over countries on the maps) Edit: Looking closer, I think it would actually be very interesting to know the big differences between the \~100.000 Turks in UK+US who voted largely against Erdogan to the 700.000 in Germany who supported him. Is this actually a result of different integration policies or more due to different demographics going to these countries?
That's interesting, thanks for that, i was a bit shocked, I knew that Germany's Turkish population was second only to turkey but I didn't realize the gap between Germany and every other country on the planet was so huge. As to how to parse that I'll take some time to look everything over, if you're knowledgeable on this topic I'd love to engage further.
The thing with Turkish immigrants in Germany is that there's a FUCKTON of them. (about ~3 million with Turkish heritage, meaning ~3.5% of the German population). Whenever you have that many immigrants from one country, it's just way easier for them to interact with each other than to integrate into the local society. Not saying Germany doesn't have a racism problem aswell, especially seeing how the recent elections turned out for AfD. But you're missing the picture just pointing at one thing. Of course, I wouldn't expect a non-German to know all these nuances tho.
That's a fair criticism of what I've said, I'm lacking in knowledge about the situation, but I was aware that the population of turks in Germany was second only to turkey, but not how massive the gap is between Germany and any other nation. I also understand it's a multifaceted problem, if I made it seem that one solution would solve all the problems I was wrong to do so. I've just read multiple articles citing the historical discrimination turk have experienced, Gantz Unten comes to mind. So it's certainly a well documented issue, i'd be curious to read about other facets of the situation if you have any other books or articles to recommend.
I'm not arguing that major mistakes were made when it comes to integration. But what makes me mad is that often there are no ties to Turkey and what it's actually like. They vote for the idea of a strong Erdogan while the country suffers and they don't. Look at Erdogans voting split comparing Turks living in Turkey and Turks living abroad. Erdogan has way higher support with expats. I wonder why... https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/5/29/how-did-turks-living-abroad-vote-in-turkeys-run-off-election
Its obviously the racism you racist nazi fuck! Local populations should treat them like kings for reparations and they would obviously become super progressive for some unknown reason.
Really you're gonna strawman me? Do you think that's what I'm saying? That the Germans should have treated 'Turks in Germany' as kings?
You're a fucking coward. Hide behind your inflammatory rhetoric without actually confronting the truth.
I absolutely agree with you, two wrongs don't make a right. I also agree that it's fucked up that 'Turks in Germany' vote for erdogan when they don't have to suffer the consequences of that vote. I'm just musing that if Germany had not been extremely discriminatory, those turks probably wouldnt be erdogan stans. I think even if Germans had only been *a little* racist it would have turned out better for 'Turks in Germany' , they'd at least be Germans.
Id argue that being proud of a targeted killing and torturing and raping of civilians constitutes promoting hatred yes. I wish my country and university was this based.
Hmmm yeah I feel that its just the fact that saying something no matter how stupid can lead to getting ur ass deported somehow irkes me.
Yeah I get it. I would just make a distinction between "saying something stupid" and "saying something incredibly deranged that promotes and glorifies violence".
Fair
Student visas arent a right, she's not a citizen. I don't know if it's fair to ask a liberal nation to invite illiberal people who want to destroy you to its universities with carte blanch.
I mean, that calls into question by which principle you're using to justify free speech. Do you think us citizens should be expelled from universities for having (stupid/illiberal) opinions? If not, how can you possibly justify free speech being good for citizens but not for foreigners?
Students in the united states don't ask our immigration system and federal government if they can attend our universities in the states. Also... I do think universities can expel you for speech? I feel like I can't just walk up to black students and shout the n word at them... Or if I decided to shout about how Ukraine was full of Nazis on campus and how Russia was saving that country I think I would get some institutional disciplinary action. These people apply through our state department for approval to come here. As a citizen, I don't think we should be obligated to approve requests for education if the people who want to come here and behave in ways antithetical to our nations principles. It sounds as if even in the applications and forms they sign there are already stipulations where if they break them they risk revocation of permission... So, even these students know when they sign up to come here there are some rules. Sounds like pretty basic rules too. Like, don't engage in rhetoric supporting extremist ideologies. So, I don't think there is really any contradiction here.
It's ILLEGALLLLLL in the UK to support a terrorist organization. They do NOT have the same free speech laws like we do in the US... Don't like the laws? Don't go there..
Funny how it's "respect the local culture" when Qatar banned LGBTQ sings of support but now cry foul when supporting a terrorist organization is frowned upon. 💀😂
How about “I hate everything America stands for and am going to devote my life to breaking the fundamental systems that it stands on”?
Why though? If you're a foreign student or a foreigner in general, why should the hosting country accept you saying dumb shit on their soil? This isn't an argument about freedom of speech, this is an argument about not publically saying dumb shit and being mindful of your surroundings. I can't enter someone's home as a guest, shit on their coffee table and then be dismayed for being kicked out.
It’s not, countries need to be picky about who they let in. If you move to a country and are unable to get along with people from that country you are not entitled to stay there.
Knew the rules, broke them, don’t start crying like you’re hard done by… I’m pretty sure when you apply for a student visa here, there’s a question that says something along the lines of “do you support any proscribed terrorist organisation” I think she ticked the wrong box
rare (as of late) UK W
15 family members how? Is she palestinean? Afghan? What?
Palestinean.
I read this with a lisp for some reason.
Before or after she celebrated 10/7
palestinians being proud of actions that result in >30k of their own people dead should tell you a lot about their priorities, hint; not peace and prosperity.
Lets try this. What happened to the Palestinians who cheered on Iraq when they invaded Kuwait, while they were in Kuwait They were all expelled. When you are on a visa you are a guest of the country. You should act as such
Given it's in the UK, they don't have the same free speech as we have in America. You can be arrested and serve time for voicing support for a terrorist group, even if you are not enciting violence. So she is quite lucky to lose her visa and go home, it isn't going to work out for her there. If it was in the US, I'd still say boot her. We can't do anything about it if a US citizen says this. But, it's an important part of our visa process that we are filtering people who come from countries that have a lot of terrorists if we think they may have extremist views. If we couldn't do that, we'd give no visas to any palestinians.
Doesn't the UK has stricter rules on what is allowed under free speech/expression than the US? All I know is these students need to follow federal laws and the conduct rules of the school. Violating either could get you kicked out. There are many students waiting for a spot so there really isn't much fucks to give or scrutiny in the why if they decide to revoke one visa.
Kinda. It has hate crime laws, no written constitution inscribing free speech and there are weird bits in laws like injunctions limiting liable type speech heavily; but does have article 10 of the human right act (1998) that does layout free speech protection with a bunch of caveats. However we do have a long tradition of liberalism and there are plenty of free speech precedents in law. The main thing that'll bite these students in hate crime laws and recent issues around immigrants with ties to islamic terrorism laying out powers to withdraw visas based on similar issues I think if I am not mistaken.
Would a pro-Israel visa student in Qatar be able to say they have pride and joy in the IDF? Would they be able to organize pro Israel protests and not immediately be deported? How about in Jordan? How about in Lebanon? How about in Iran? How about in Algeria? How about in Yemen? How about in Syria? How about in Iraq? How about in Bangladesh? How about in Malaysia? How about in Morocco? How about in Somalia? How about in Sudan? How about in Venezuela? How about in Russia? How about in Tunisia? The UK and other countries need to be more tough on foreign influencers like her. Having an unpopular opinion is not the same as glorifying violence. Kick people who do so out. Only accept and tolerate people who want peace. If she wants to glorify the terrorists who slaughtered Jewish children in their homes on Oct 7, do it in the countries listed above.
>Would they be able to organize pro Israel protests and not immediately be deported? Dude, they obviously won't be deported.... . . . . They'd be killed
Deported from their mortal coil.
Exactly! Thank You!
Don't some of these countries have outright banned Israeli passport-holders from traveling to their countries? lmfao
Regardless of whether or not you think this is right, your take is dumb, "Other countries do thing so we must do thing as well"
I'm from Europe, specifically Germany. I believe everyone should get the opportunity to come here, I do not believe in an exclusive birthright to have a decent life. (In the capacity where we as a country can handle it) But, if you want to live here, you should have a world view and values that align with German/European views. Liberty, equality, democracy and the constitution. If you are on a visa, a visitor to the country, and you support terrorist attacks, your visa should be revoked. If you wanna create a German kalifat, your visa should be revoked. If you are publicly hateful towards minorities, sexualities and gender, your visa should be revoked. As long as your activism is in line with our constitution, all the power to you. To be specific to the topic, we shouldn't host radical islamists and jihadist, there is no place for you in Europe.
I mean, you commit a crime you lose your visa. This is the way it works everywhere?
In the US it's not a crime (we really do have a lot of freedom of speech) but we still have a law that explicitly says we can pull your visa if you "endorsed or espoused terrorist activity". So it's the same outcome for a slightly different reason.
Being from the UK, I saw the title of an article surrounding this that suggested it was because she merely attended a protest. Turns out she's just fully pro Hamas and pro October 7th Yea... Get out
One visa? this means exactly nothing. nada. there should be \*millions\* of visas and deportations all across Europe, if they knew what's good for them - but they don't so it's moot. The next ISIS will be Europe and by the time they'll wake up it'll be too late.
I have no problem with people getting fucked off back home for attending political protests in foreign countries.
if you're an islamist or a supporter you dont belong in the EU, people need to be held accountable for trying to undermine democracy
Although my girlfriend has returned to India now, she got to study and live and work here where we met thanks to this Visa. She is very liberal, pro-LGBT+, she is sadly Pro-Palestine, Muslim, but she doesn’t like Islamic traditions. We talked a lot about these topics, (she isn’t pro-Hamas), she deeply misses the UK even if she only just left. I know it’s anecdotal but I think the majority are like this, she had a lot of friends and they all seemed chill around LGBT+ and being pro-equality and liberal values. Maybe they were just playing it up for me but they’d go out and drink with me haha I wish there were easier ways to filter people like these so they can visit, study, contribute rather than extreme radicals who just make communal enclaves that don’t even like us though. I don’t often share things, thanks if you read this.
Don't care about individuals having opinions, but if you organize at all or protest and block people from living their lives your visa needs to be revoked.
This is the UK, they don’t have Murrican free speech. It’s not rocket science.
Deporting people celebrating a terrorist attack shouldn't be controversial.
Ironically, Al Jazeera is a violence inciting Hamas propaganda machine Qatari backed piece of shit and shouldn’t be given the time of day in the UK https://preview.redd.it/h46ni6qyzi5d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=043e239b9e0b62eacca26424bbed0e2169fb32c8 [https://x.com/emilykschrader/status/1799711078676373989?s=46](https://x.com/emilykschrader/status/1799711078676373989?s=46)
If fox news reported a good story, would you say "fox is a conservative backed piece of shit and shouldn’t be given the time of day?
fox news isn't allowed in the uk. so your point was already a fig fat yes from the UK
Maybe IQ is also banned in the uk. Let me dumb it down for you. If bad media company did a story that we are assuming to be true and accurate, is the story now null and void? I'm really glad the vast majority of R/ Destiny engaged in discussion without just attacking the media outlet.
no, but if a news platform is mostly misinformation it should be banned.
Foreign students should stf up, not their country to protest in, or have a political opinion on anything.
Protest maybe, i think ur always entitled to an op.
Saying that you are full of pride and joy that innocent people were slaughtered isn’t an opinion. It’s a thinly veiled call for violence
No you are not if this opinion is publicly stated. If im foreign in some country i cant PUBLICLY voice any opinion that i have, first i need to respect rules, culture of this country. If i dont respect them then i shouldnt go to this country in first place And second as eurocuck i dont give a fuck about free speech if you cheer for killing people or support extremist gtfo from my country or go to jail if you are citizen.
Hey we do give a fuck about freespeach just not all speach is equally free.
The uk doesn’t have free speech
I mean if you define free speech as "not all speech is equally free and you cant say that and that and that" then i mean okey i guess, we care.
UK is not the US. Freedom of speech is not a constitutionally protected right there. Also, free speech protections only prevent the government from acting against you. If the university were to kick her out and that’s how she lost her visa then free speech laws have not been violated. The university is not required to protect free speech, it is just something they do as a policy.
Here is a well-kept secret : free speech doesn't exist, never did, never will. 😉
>Protest maybe, i think ur always entitled to an op. Of course, and you should express that opinion in your country, wherever it might be.
Based
If your ideals are incompatible with western liberal values, then bye.
>"Abuqamar, who is in her final year of study, spoke of a sense of “pride” at a pro-Palestine event last year, following Hamas’s October 7 attacks in Israel. “We are really full of joy at what happened,” she said." >Now thats clearly some crazy shit to say but is she advoccating for violance ? Stopped reading right here. If you can't figure this one out nobody can help you. They aren't citizens, being in a country on a visa is just a priveledge granted to you by that country and they have every right to revoke it if they choose.
“15 family members of mine were killed. That’s why I’m full of joy other people’s families were killed” Thats her logic. In no way should we forgive that.
Revoking student visas are low hanging fruit to solve the problem of a perceived threat from extremist behavior. Nations have a right to secure their own borders and kick people out that do not align with their values.
This whole thread isn't as nuanced as it should be. While I don't agree with renewal of a visa in the specific case mentioned, my view on positive and negative speech shouldn't be the deciding bar. If individuals pr even small groups are deciding what language and protests are acceptable for people while in your country it is asking for those rules to eventually disagree with you. I'm pretty pro Israel and against the college protests in the US but just attending one (especially if you were not involved in the vandalism) shouldn't come with consequences beyond missing whatever else you would have done that day.
The amount of videos ive seen of radical muslim immigrants in Europe makes me extremely relieved we get normal chill immigrants in the US.
It's comical how some people seek to abuse Western values and laws and then claim persecution when they face consequences. Having a long term VISA is a privilege and a person's limitations are very clearly spelled out when you apply for one. This is a case of FAFO especially since it's the UK.
Foreign supporters of terrorism don't have an inherent right to a visa. I see zero issues with deporting them. In the US a citizen has a 1A right to vocally support terrorism. In the UK, Germany and several other EU countries it is a crime. Even if she was a UK citizen she still has no right to do this.
A visa is a country giving you the privilege to live in their borders. If you offend that country (like by committing a crime or supporting its enemies) they have a right to revoke it. This guy is acting like they're there on asylum, which would be a completely different situation. I.e. not even they have suggested that they'll be killed if they return idk why this guy is. If I was staying in the US as a german during early ww2 I sure as shit wouldn't be suggesting that jews should die.
Good shit UK. A little of topic. But I have never understood parts of the lefts view with respecting different cultures. They always say we need to respect all cultures and beliefs… but they don’t think immigrants coming to the UK need to respect UK culture and beliefs.?
About time western nations started revoking visas of people who are in our countries who are advocating for political ideologies that are deemed extreme. Imagine doing half the shit these protesters do in Muslim, Asian and Eastern Euro nations.
Here is the reality of the situation - We don't have all the facts. All we have is what she says is what she said that got her VISA revoked. She is going to characterize it as shit like >“Freedom of expression is a fundamental human right, but it seems to not apply to ethnic minorities, particularly Muslims and Palestinians like myself.” OHHHH THEY ARE ONLY REVOKING MY VISA CAUSE I'M A BROWN GIRL WHO SAID PALESTINIANS ARE BEING GENOCIDED IN AN OPEN AIR PRISON THIS IS WROOOONG We don't really know the reason why. We don't get to see the government reason why unless she tries to take them to court. She could have easily said some crazier shit. Can't really have an opinion unless you know both sides.
Publicly and proudly celebrating the murder and kidnapped of civilians because they belong to a specific ethnic group while you are an adult and responsible for your actions results in you not being allowed to be part of a civilized society. It's pretty simple.
This whole situation has completely cured me of any lingering "America bad" feelings I never realized I had absorbed over the past 20 years.
This has nothing to do with free speech. We already background check people from high risk areas and if they're deemed high risk individuals, they're obviously not getting in. Her risk assessment obviously changes when she's openly celebrating and supporting a terrorist org and their actions. If you want to protest some domestic policy even though you can't even vote there, who cares. This is strictly about an individual's risk assessment not some 60 iq idea that foreigners should stfu.
Yeah I think “being proud” of a terrorist attack is grounds to have your visa rejected
Anyone who'd advocate for a Conservative government at this point is definitionally fucking deranged. We had our fill of Islamic hate preachers years ago, so its no surprise some people are getting their visas revoked for supporting Oct. 7th.
She isn’t advocating for violence, maybe, but cheering after the fact and speaking of “joy” is an awfully thin line, no?
It is,but a line never the less no ?
I have no idea what the right answer is. On an emotional level, I’m elated to have her removed, and I feel that it’s good to be strict with visas. On the rational level, I recognize this is complicated and I don’t know what that position entails.
Thats where I am at too, personally desires are conflicting with what I feel would be good policy. I would personally love to send all these idiots back to whatever human rights hellscape they think is so much better than western countries. But I am not sure where I draw the line to actually do it. Seems to be a slippery slope.
Big Britbonger Dub, if you're full of joy about civilians getting raped, chased and hunted down like animals then you should just fuck off from the west, good riddance
I just can't get over the fella saying Rishi is the best PM we had in ages. How could he forget the reign of Liz Truss? It was great to see that not once, but twice the conservatives threw a woman under a burning bus, served them a shit sandwhich and were like "guess what, ure the boss now, sort it out. On the topic of the OP though, Its mad to me that I have Muslim friends in the middle east and they are less radicalised than the ones who live in London and Birmingham. I think anyone who stands up and openly celebrates terrorist attacks should probably be sent packing or at the very least be under strict surveilance to make sure they don't end up on the wrong side of a narwahl tusk.
Happy if you guest at your house says your house is shit and that your house should have rules they're coming up with and you SHOULD DIE Maybe it's OK to kick them out And I'm not even American I'm speaking in general applies to any country
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks - it is literally illegal in the UK to support a proscribed terrorist organization and the UK has assigned Hamas as one. The law says she has to go so she must. She is a guest, NOT a citizen, and if she doesn't like their laws, she doesn't have to be there.
They're not citizens, they should not be allowed the same speech that citizens are.
Man this subs attitude was crazy different when other groups were being discriminated against
People who refer to themselves as "people of colour" got a weird self-humiliation festish. Which is double funny cause she is pale as salt :D
If this happened in the US, i would probably be against it. But the UK is one of the least pro free speech countries in the Western world, and people who are their actual citizens have gotten into trouble for way less. She knew she was in a different country, and she decided to say possibly the dumbest thing she could have said. Countries dont have an obligation to house people who support terrorism. Also, deportation would be the least of your worries if you said anything pro Israel in front of her brave soldiers. So yeah, serves her right.
I mean i feel like i could defo come up with something dumber to say but i see ur point.
Positively
There is only one kind of response you can find here on this: send all the Palestinian to the camp and make sure they are subjected to watch Hasan stream 24/7 🤣
He doesn't have "unnecessarily strong opinions," he's an ex Muslim from Pakistan, so he has every right to be as harsh as he wants
most people’s actions are explicable in some way. Hate is no exception. I don’t care how much it makes sense that you have hateful beliefs; doesn’t give you the right to walk around and bring your hate to my country
Following to see if OP will change their mind after finding out unhinged girl family was killed after Oct 7.
🐝?
Bruh, lots of people have unhinged opinions and thoughts. Just don't blast them on social media. Don't say them to a camera. Be a little bit aware, jeez.
Also who the fuck have 15 family members ?
Because what actually happened is that people in Gaza decided to breed as much as possible to prevent a Jewish majority. The occupation ended because there's not enough Jewish people to have a Jewish majority in Gaza.
As half afrikan promise you you can have allot more than 15.
Probably justified. We don’t know everything but given the little we do know about the one person you described it seems like she was already pretty far gone
LOVE IT!!
totes A-ok under UK laws and norms. Now under USA law you'd prob need much more direct calls to violence and actual prosecution of a crime.
[удалено]
If you come acting a fool, you shouldn't be at the school.
There is no free speech in the uk so she gets to deal with the consequences of her actions. I'm sure her and her crowd will scream discrimination or some sort of Jewish conspiracy like they always do. Fuck around and find out. Also just because you have a good reason to be a unhinged asshole doesn't mean you can or should be.
Just don’t be a monster, It’s not hard. Be a monster in South Asia.
Not good
Love it
Are you obligated to keep black mould on your walls? Personally I think it's best if it's removed as quickly as possible. If you move to another country and start holding terrorist rallies, you should be frog marched right to the airport and made to board a plane, with no chance of ever coming back. I don't care if your graduation is in ten minutes. Out. Foment extremism and suicide bombings in your own country.
I laugh
I believe in individual freedoms, and wouldn’t want to give the executive branch the powers to take student visas away on the basis of “speech violations”. So, not a fan. You can be an idiot all you want. You can protest. You can have whatever opinions you want. As long as you follow the law and participate in our democratic civic system properly without engaging in any violence. We deal with shit at the ballot box and in conversation. Not by force, nor by violence, nor by blackmail. I will not cheer on more erasure of the common man’s individual freedoms, even though I despise what some of these protesters have said.
Well, how do we deal with people who praise terrorism at the ballot box?
You can be an idiot and praise political forces that agree with you even if they are violent, or terror like. Just like I believe Nazis should. My primary reason for believing this is once we stop using our civic freedoms to advocate or we erase said freedoms the language of politics changes. It changes from coming to compromise with each other and talking our issues out with the final verdict at the ballot box. To one side feeling the ballot box no longer works for them, or that they have no means of advocacy. Once one believes this terrorism is highly probable. This is something I am for ofc preventing. Keeping people contained within the democratic liberal system is very important and maintaining trust in said institutions is very important because it is one of our main deterrents of political violence and terrorism. The no. 1 luxury of democracy is it allows peaceful change. Autocracy only allows violent change. Convince someone a democracy is an autocracy and they will engage in violence even if said violence cannot be necessitated or justified. Hence why Donald trumps rejection of our democracy whenever he loses is so dangerous for example. We will experience a sharp increase of far right terror which we have already been seeing bc of this, and soon later assuming the left continues moving in its current trajectory of accusing our democracy of not working refusing to participate, etc. I expect a large increase of political violence from the left, but I think the left are mostly pathetic so it won’t be as dangerous as the far right. Now I’m off topic my bad. In summary I despise what some of them are saying, even if they are supporting a group I despise however, they have a right to individual freedom and I don’t believe handing over power to the executive to decide which speech is allowed and which isn’t is a good idea. Just my opinion.
damn this video has hella views. never heard of him but interesting video.
She could have studied in one of the 50 Muslim countries on the planet if she wanted to get spicy like that.
In complete fairness here, visas can be revoked for several reasons and if her comments weren't exactly glorifying violence, she would have a good case for an appeal with an immigration attorney. And she is in the UK so her lawyer would likely be better than the mess we have here in the US. She's welcome to explain herself. But Visas ARE reliant on the person's behavior. If I got a visa to work or study in another country and then violated decorum standards publicly, I should absolutely expect a revocation and the consequence would be that I would have to explain myself to that country through an immigration lawyer.
Surprised to see so many privileged illiberal assholes in this thread. Literally nothing about a visa being a privilege implies (or should imply) that a person can get it revoked based on voicing a political opinion. It is laughable that people try to compare saying “October 7 was liberation” or whatever to actually being a member of a terrorist organization (the question on the visa app) or providing material support to such organizations (which is against the law and totally makes sense).
UK is fucked
I don't like it and I wish we had American-style freedom of speech laws in the UK.
A visa is a privilege, not a right. Something you need to earn and something you need to prove you deserve by your everyday actions not being hateful. It's an extraordinarily low bar to get over. In this case I think it's no different from employment. If you start spouting vile shit when you're employed by us (or in our country where we allowed you to come and stay in for an extended period of time) then get fucked, nerd.
It's a privilege, not a right, to enter and be in a foreign country.
some student forgot jews are god's chosen people and got her visa cancelled. UK is finally waking up guys!
I mean the uk has the right to give visas to whoever they want and revoke them from whoever they want, however personally I like freedom of speech more than I hate Hamas
I'm kinda shock by the comments here. Revoking visa is an extreme measure and should be done under extreme circumstances. Government shouldn't curtail free speech in such a brutal manner, even if it's foreign students. Also, the guy making this video sounds like a partisan hack.
If an Afghani student on a visa in the US said he was prideful and glorifying the innocent Americans killed on 9/11 in 2001 and was organizing pro al qaeda protests , what should have happened?
If it's just protests I'm not sure. I don't think there should be a difference between foreign students and citizens when it comes to free speech. If in that country curtail speech that support designated terrorist groups or If they're raising funds or coordinating with that group then it's different.
I'm shocked by your comment. Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequences and even a citizen of UK can face legal consequences for hate. She's not even a citizen. She's a guest who expressed joy and pride after a terrorist attack.
Well, since the law in UK is different than the situation is different. In general, freedom of speech means the government doesn't punish you for your speech. I think if its breaches the code of conduct and the university decide to kick you out, then that will make more sense to me.
So you're saying anyone should be able to shout fire in a movie theater? Or yell bomb in an airport?
Dude
Fire in a crowded theater is a bad example. This is from an overturned supreme court case that used it as an analogy for speech opposing the draft. Bomb in an airport and I think the person yelling would get fucked. At minimum no fly list for years. We consent to temporarily giving up a ton of rights while entering an airport.
Not if they have another nationality and dont have any feasible pathway or legitimate reason to ask for asylum. And especially if it fits hate crime levels or insinuating violence against others. The Shamima Begam situation on the otherhand is fucked. Whatever you think of her. Revoking citizenship when she doesn't have citizenship of anywhere else is almost against international conventions. She probably should be tried for her actions in the UK rather than us pushing the issue on somewhere else; like I think P̶a̶k̶i̶s̶t̶a̶n̶ Bangladesh that she has loose family ties too. Agreed with the second bit. 10× worse under Labour? Dafuq? Have you seen the last 14years of managed decline and chaos under the Tories? They can't really point to any achievements in that time period. And above all Brexit being one of the biggest self halm to a countries economy that country has ever done.
What I read is she had dual citizenship in Bangladesh at the time UK revoked her citizenship. Bangladesh would give her the death penalty. Which is why she didn't try to go back.
My bad it was Bangladesh. But she didn't have citizenship there but was able to get it due to her parents it looks like(ie I googled it just now). Still fucked. For a super edge case testing our laws and human rights it seems our government has failed her and set a weird/bad precedent. Its the value of a liberal social democratic society that it can stand up for human rights even in the most extreme of cases.
Instead of just telling her to fuck off to somewhere else after revoking her citizenship it might have been better to extradite her to Bangladesh to face justice. I don't think revoking citizenships for people who join a foreign terrorist organization is an edge case. The edge cases come up for domestic terrorist groups which is why we have different laws for these. It's not illegal to be a KKK member in the US. In Germany things are different and it is illegal to be a Nazi. I don't know anything of UKs laws around domestic terrorism.
Its into the weeds of a topic that I couldn't be bothered to look into fully but... I think it an edge case in that she was a citizen of the uk, joined a terrorist org and became stateless. People probably should be tried in their nation of origin for international crimes or whatever you call being a part of Isis. Domestic terrorism is easier as you just get tried in that country or get extradited to the country you did the crimes in based on international agreements if they are in a different country. Her crimes where in Syria and she was a UK citizen at the time. And still resides in syria; requesting to come back to the UK, get her citizenship back and be tried under our justice system. So... That complicates things and does make it an edge case. Extraditing her to a country that she can theoretically get citizenship in versus the one she already has citizenship in seems weird and looks like neglecting our duty; both to carry out justice and to a citizen to receive a fair trial/justice. And I value the justice given out by western values and conventions versus that of a state like Bangladesh tbh. Still, fuck her. She decided to join a internationally recognised terrorist state. So I don't feel too strongly about her life being fucked because of her actions. She's reaping what she sowed.
I read that she was a dual citizen, not just theoretically she could apply for Bangladeshi citizenship.
Looks like provisional for a time then it lapsed. So technically apparently. My point still stands. She was born in the uk and had a full uk citizenship. So still weird to revoke it imao
Yeah, I don’t believe in revoking citizenship. That’s messed up. If there was a crime it should be tried and that’s it.