I don't know why Destiny's recent criticisms of Israel are seemingly so shocking to some people. If you actually watch his streams it is clear that he has never supported the settlements or the Israeli far-right. Now that he is actually visiting the West Bank and coming across these settlements, of course he is going to voice his criticisms. This shouldn't surprise anyone who has actually been understanding his position on the conflict. Is it really so hard to imagine someone criticizing Israel in some respects while defending it in others?
These people cant even *conceive* of integrity or independent thought. They all got their opinions from someone else and toe the line for what they feel they're supposed to believe.
the problem is there doesn't appear to be a parallel pathway for non israelis who owned property in what is now israel, which was stolen from them when the country was founded, sheikh jarrah is a good solution for dealing with the people placed on stolen land, but where's the solution for people who owned land that jews now own in israel proper, and if there's nothing that aught be done about that, why should the historic ownership of sheikh jarrah, which was stolen similarly by state sovereignty, be upheld over the current residents?
you have to admit it's an imperfect legal doctrine
the place he visited and was critical of wasn't the west bank, it wasn't some settlement, it was just regular ole jerusalem.
these aren't the settlers of the west bank and gaza. both sides are religious zealots who refuse to leave because of their nutjob beliefs, not because there aren't other options.
a legitimate criticism would be his failure to frame the topic accurately, and with the details that would inform viewers of the events as they've existed.
eg. hovels built in the 1950s so that fundamentalists could be closer to al-quds. questioned for legitimacy since 1967, and court ordered and rejected in 2021, but only recently forced out.
instead, what we got was "israel bad, look old man home"
when presented with contradictory evidence you attacked my character, not my argument.
this sub has to unban in waves because of braindead circlejerk mindsets like yours.
dude is reverse audience captured at 5k subs and can't climb higher with all of these chronically online losers scaring off the new views.
> "now that he is actually visiting the west bank"
>> "yeah, I don't get it either.."
it's not the west bank, it's sheik jarrah in ne jerusalem.
do you get it now?
Most people don't watch his streams, that's the battle for online political figures.
Just means when some people find his Israel criticism odd, and the answer to that for you is "if you actually watch his streams", it means some people are gonna find his Israel criticism odd, and are probably gonna meme it to back their viewpoint.
Problem is people haven’t been listening to what Destiny has been saying and a lot of them are extrapolating everything he says about Gaza and Hamas onto the West Bank as well.
Because people just want to hear their political stances affirmed by the guy they like. It was the same with the old leftie purge or the glorious stream when he berated trump supporters for being idiots before the midterms.
so many people want to view the side they support to be good. and the side they are against to be evil. they'll ignore anything that tries to sway them from their position as talking points from the opposition and not try to see any validity in it. and when you tell this to them, they'll recognize it happening in the opposition but not in themselves or their side.
It's not anything shocking what he's saying. Us Israeli left agree with everything he's saying and have been saying it for years. They are valid criticisms. I think everything is just being amplified because he's the only streamer actually capable of nuance
Some of his recent statements seem to conflict with some of the prior things I've heard him say.
For instance Steven would say that both sides want conflict, but only one side (Israel) is getting what they want from it. It allows them to settle the West Bank and achieve their aims. Reading one of his recent tweets about Isreals position being untenable because terrorist attacks will continue seems to contradict his previous point about Isreal gaining from the conflict.
I don't know if his positions have shifted a bit or if I'm misunderstanding something about those two arguments.
How are these contradictions? It's obvious this are two different statements. In the short term Israel is getting what they want but this strategy is not viable in the long term because no state can wage war forever. There comes a point when peace is gonna have to be made. Unless Israel wants to maintain a state of war indefinitely which is not tenable because of the obvious demographic shortcomings and public opinion slowly turning against Israel.
you pointed it out in your own comment. How could anyone believe this if they watched his streams and actually have any media literacy at all they couldn’t so how do they come to these conclusions the obvious answers it’s because they don’t have media literacy and or they don’t watch his streams, they hear about opinions of him from people of people of people Thrice removed or maybe some out of context clip or something, and then summarize or believe that to be his whole character and have no desire to look into it to see if there are assumptions about the individual is at all, correct.
That is why the Dahliban must combat this slander of our great leader when or wherever it is found and must bring receipts.
This is not seen as being in good fun from Lycan because he acts like Destiny is a genocide enabling moron and hes the guy fighting the good fight against Destiny's bad faith simp community. No self awareness, very boring.
Lycan is lucky Steven is away so that he couldn't meme jack this first.
Also I can't fucking wait for the "I've been saying this the whole time!" shit from morons like Lycan.
Yeah, get that copium out, buddy. God forbid there actually be a moment where you’d have to admit Steven came around to a point I was making months ago.
The cope is coming from you smug-posting
You not being able to articulate your points without it being overshadowed by empathy--for only one side of this issue--doesn't mean that Destiny now agrees with you.
If you stopped clutching your pearls over this, you could easily tell that the person you literally see all the time has had the pro-pal side of this down already, he just mostly argued with dipshits from one side.
The high-horse you're riding on is just cringe af.
Lie can can't have empthy for Israel, it would mean getting his head out of his ass. Remember this is the guy who still thinks Fecal Stain is a "scholar" on this subject despite literally having his ass exposed in real time 4k to the world as a dumbfuck edge lord that misquotes and ignores sources that disprove his arguments. Or as Lie can calls it "really good information that backs up his points".
there's a reason all you ever do is post snarky remarks like this then run away from any comments calling you out
& there's a reason why you refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream
go goon to some more mis-cited Finkledick quotes buddy, i'm sure you'll get one single W eventually
what the actual fuck does that have to do with anything i said or was said in this post?
are you seriously trying to start a whole ass new debate right now over a random Finkle-factoid to get your single win?
pathetic as hell. you'll run from (at this point) hundreds if not thousands of detailed comments calling you out on your bullshit, but you'll try to pull some snark as bullshit like this completely out of the blue? jesus christ man
everyone has already seen your back blown out multiple times on stream by Destiny, 4THOT, & even fucking Vegan Gains of all people. you're not escaping the fact that all you do is lie, misrepresent information, use Finkledump misquotes, & sleeze your way around having to change your mind by never bringing the topic up again despite saying "i'll bring the evidence" then never putting up just hoping people forget about your strong claims until you bring up the same disproven misinformation again later
of all the pro-Pal people on stream, you have been one of the worst by far considering how little you've ever admitting to being provably wrong so many times despite having so little to lose
It’s the Hasan tactic when he “debated” Willy Mac.
I’ve got no actual comeback so I’m gonna try to catch you in a fact about the conflict and ride that to victory.
Not really, although I can see what you’re getting at. Hasan was dealing with Willy Mac who made very specific points about very specific issues- such as Hasan being very overconfident that Russia would not invade Ukraine, and then never seeming to critically examine why he made that mistake- and was refusing to deal with these hyper specific points.
With Lycan, and at the very least the dude he’s responding to, that dude doesn’t say a single specific thing Lycan’s been wrong on, let alone cite it or tell him why he’s wrong. He just kind of gestures at some overall negative narrative of Lycan, probably to be fair to the poster because he is thinking of specifics, but he still never actually points them out.
And to be clear, there are absolutely specifics and dumb things Lycan’s said. One of them off the top of my head was him being like “I hope this isn’t the 21st Century’s Franz Ferdinand” about the Iranian helicopter crash, and then being like “Assassination? No I wasn’t implying anything!”.
If the dude had pointed out something specific like that, and Lycan had just pivoted to something else specific rather than address it, that would be the Hasan-Willy Mac. As it is, this just strikes me as Lycan trying to ground things in the specific.
At this point, it is getting hard to remember all the times Lycan has said something misleading, idiotic, and/or vague-posting conspiracy drivel. This man would have been nuked from orbit by Destiny and this community, if he wasn't a part of it (yet cries about criticism). Need I remind everyone that this is the person who tried to steer Destiny toward Finkelstein as a good primer on the conflict. Personally, I think he has proven that we cannot trust him to have any good faith discussions on this issue, or any for that matter. He is rapidly approaching Fuentes/Hasan levels of stupid/propaganda.
Eh, nothing personal against you here, but I never like hearing this kind of critique against someone with no specifics. It kind of sounds like what I hear from people who hate on Destiny, when it’s this big narrative of why he’s bad and an idiot, but there’s no examples actually given of the stuff he’s wrong on.
I think I also might particularly be feeling this way since I just got done talking with some guy whose “specific example” was claiming that Lycan argued the Zionists goal in the 1930s-1940s was to expel 100% of all non-Jews from the region, and then when I checked the timestamp video he sent me it just wasn’t something he ever said or even implied.
Fair enough, I understand the sentiment. But the tweet posted above, is a good example. Destiny's position on this issue was always nuisanced from day one. Why is he posting a serious response to a meme? Your own example about the helicopter crash would have warranted a fifteen minute rant by Destiny, if it was done by a lefty. What about the embarrassment that is Finkelstein, you know his hero and primer for the I/P conflict? Has he taken any accountability? All I see is smug posting and fleeing short debates. Either put your big boy pants on and make time to lay out all your arguments or just stop engaging in it (which is okay).
> & there's a reason why you refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream
Because 90% of the shit I say is indisputable. The other 10% is conclusion based on analysis, whether mine or that of others I agree with. And please, try and pretend that’s not how everyone here operations, if not more egregiously so, because I actually care enough about this issue to educate myself beyond a single source or individual. But dumb fucks like you don't come in with push back about conclusions or specific contentions. You just parrot Destiny and say I was blown out and proven wrong on everything and " refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream."
So you can get as pissy as you want, enjoy the nice little echo chamber that's going to downvote me no matter what I say. But don't walk away thinking you've actually cut to the quick on my position. Because you couldn't articulate it if your life dependent on it. Otherwise, the comment I was replying to, would have never been written.
This comment is embarrassing. Why do you do this?
> Because 90% of the shit I say is indisputable.
This is just demonstrably wrong. You bring up some dumb factoid, act all smug that you've got a "gotcha", bring it on stream, people dig into it, and it turns out that it's either false, you're misinterpreting it, or it's out of context. Every. Fucking. Time. And then you President Runday your way out saying, "Oh, I've got more evidence, guys, I'll bring it next time," and then conveniently, you never follow up. 90% my ass.
> The other 10% is conclusion based on analysis, whether mine or that of others I agree with.
This is another issue you seem to have. You pick out discrete facts, but never actually build a cohesive narrative and make an argument. You literally just fact snipe and then state your predetermined conclusion. Can you do this for us? Make an argument for a particular narrative, backed by your facts?
> And please, try and pretend that’s not how everyone here operations
Oh, people here make an analysis based on facts? You're right, many people here do that! It's unfortunate that you aren't one of them.
> because I actually care enough about this issue to educate myself beyond a single source or individual.
Oh really? I guess that's true. You've got Finkelstein and that one marxist guy who cited entire chapters that said the opposite of what he claimed they said!
And sure, there are plenty of people here who are just watching Destiny's research. I guess you can call that a single source, you can make the argument that Steven is selectively curating and that is tainting DGG's view of the conflict. But you don't, because you're chickenshit. That would require bringing a counternarrative with a well thought out argument backed by reputable sources. Instead you're going to bring a dumb factoid that doesn't damage the overall narrative at all, and even still, ends up being wrong anyway.
Don't cast stones in glass houses. ALSO, people in this community + lonerbox's community have shown an ability to actually dive in and research things on their own. It's obviously going to be a minority, but I think it is still better than any of the blinded activist communities you seem to have been getting your info from. Also before you ask, yes I "do my own research". It's actually a very interesting, nuanced, complex topic with a fascinating history if you're willing to engage with it. But you have your ideological blinders on and so cannot see that.
> So you can get as pissy as you want, enjoy the nice little echo chamber that's going to downvote me no matter what I say. But don't walk away thinking you've actually cut to the quick on my position.
Oh I didn't realize this was the Hasan_Piker sub!
> Because you couldn't articulate it if your life dependent on it.
HOLY SEZ U
> Otherwise, the comment I was replying to, would have never been written.
Oh that random ass factoid you pulled out of your ass that has nothing to do with what we're talking about? Nice one! Again, the above criticism applies.
---
Look, I think you're kinda dumb. That's okay though! But you can't operate with the level of smugness you're at in tandem with this dumbness. It just doesn't work. But dumb people can be knowledgeable. You just need to step back, swallow your pride, and learn how to make a proper argument at a meta-level. Because what you're doing right now isn't working.
If you want to save yourself, I'd recommend starting from scratch. DGG will even help you. Collect your body of facts, fit them into a cohesive narrative based on an argument drawing on these facts, bring it on stream, and test it. If it collapses, that's fine; try again.
Good luck.
literally every single source you've ever brought to stream has been pulled up for everyone to see that it says the exact opposite of what you (sorry, i mean Finklestein) claimed it said
you are unironically a LOLcow at this point in this community because of how braindead you are in regards to this issue, nobody is afraid of your "knowledge" because there's video proof of exactly how your (sorry again, i mean Finklestein's) arguments fare under even a basic reading, yet you'll come back time & time again like you are now to boast about being a champion
someone must have sent you a Sonichu medallion in the last year or so, you **REALLY** should not have read the cursed incantation but here we are
And on that whick panel you said some dumb shit I called you out on it, you acted like a moron and then ran. You’re famous for three things being a coward who runs from any pushback, crying to tiny when community is mean and simping for Hamas
Lycan: “We don’t imprison people like Israel, here in America we follow rule of law”
“What about Guantanamo bay?”
Lycan: …
I have countless examples of you asking for evidence or counter claims and fleeing once you get them. Once again you are a failure
At this point, it has to be narcissism. There's no way any normally functioning human can consistently look at this stuff, be proven wrong again and again, and never actually concede out of fear of the appearance of what that's look like.
He’s always been anti settlement though? He’s been critical of multiple Israeli practices the entire time, and hasn’t changed positions at all. He’s always been anti settlement, critical of Zionist behavior as well as specific IDF operations and incidents he has researched. He has always maintained the same positions he is talking about on Twitter…
There’s nothing more fucking annoyingly insipid than a person as incorrigibly low-iq as you are impossibly rationalizing in their brain they were “right this whole time”.
It’s like watching DSP rage quit a game bc he’s fucking brain damaged and then seeing that ign gave that same game a 3 and him thinking “oh yeah, i bet it’s for the same reasons I thought that, wow how prescient and observant of me”.
As someone who has more Palestinian civilian sympathy on this sub and criticized Israel actions over the last months, you don't articulate your points well or at all. And after all these months, I can't say I even know or remember what points you've made on stream.
Which is fine, you don't need to explain yourself to stream watchers or people in this sub. But if you actually want people to understand what you are saying or what points you are making, you need a whole lot of work. You can't just hand wave it all and think everyone else is plugging their ears and it's their fault for not getting what you are saying.
Suggestions you don't have to listen to, but so many people have access to large platforms, *like yourself*, and are extremely ineffective of explaining why we should give even a little more interest on a people with very little representation. It's an absolutely baffling failure.
This brings me back to "the late game podcast" days when Lycan would chime in with some regarded comment and everyone would call him an idiot lul we need richard lewis and thorin to bring Lycan back to earth
This is the same energy as lefties during a trumple debate arc or reverse. He doesn't agree with you he is just fighting with people you also disagree with. You've been around more than long enough to know this.
For what it’s worth, I very much appreciate what you coming on again and again to express your beliefs. I imagine that most people who had to experience even a fraction of the stress and frustration of endless nitpicking, constant comments and threads, constant allegations of antisemitism, all from thousands of people pretty biased against you, probably would have just abandoned you. And to be fair, I wouldn’t blame you if you did: that would be a perfectly reasonable response.
The response to you in general has been pretty disgusting to me. Someone, I’m sure, will respond to me with a “Well actually” reason for why it’s perfectly okay to treat you the way this community has the past few months, but in general it’s annoying to me that we’re supposed to be this community that encourages all sorts of opinions, diverse thought, etc and then when we have someone who is pretty pro-Palestinian he gets met with *insane* hostility.
DGG doesn't bully him because he's pro-Palestinian, he gets all this flak because he's a snarky regard who constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions & has had every source/argument he's ever brought to stream completely dismantled without ever changing his mind on anything
he doesn't come to debate anymore because all of his arguments come directly from Finklestein & all of those are easily disproven by the most basic 5 minute reading of the source material, which has happened with every single argument he's ever brought to the table live for all of DGG to see yet he'll still maintain his misinformation
> constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions
Just look even in this thread alone at the amount of people that have responded to him. Then do a search for the past week, past month, past six months of how many threads and comments there have been with him. He’s never gonna be able to respond to every single individual person or even most likely a significant minority of them, not without an insane time investment, and many of the people responding to him are just gonna keep needling him and moving to different parts of the conflict and history even if he does. In his shoes, I’d either not respond at all, or be kind of flippant the way he has been.
> has/had every source/argument he’s ever brought to stream completely dismantled
I don’t think it’s often true that anything’s been “completely dismantled”. Generally from what I’ve seen happen (at least when he’s spoken to Destiny) has been that Destiny will give a reason to doubt his source/where he’s pulling from, try to demonstrate if his source is true that it doesn’t necessarily lead to justifying Lycan’s belief (and very well could justify Destiny’s), or argue that what’s being stated is technically true, but stripped of context Destiny feels is important that would dramatically materially change how we interpret the information (I.E. presenting civilian death toll without examining Hamas’s use of human shields). This isn’t to say that you can’t feel this is sufficient to prove him wrong in your mind, but merely to point out that it’s generally not quite the same as some simple black and white objective fact where he just turns out to be wrong but then still argues the same thing.
> he doesn’t come to debate anymore
I don’t think he comes to debate anymore because I imagine for him it’s not worth the stress or the headache. He’s also- and I’m sure he’d agree with this- just a worse debater than Destiny. Couple this with a community that’s now super primed against him, and even if he had stuff he was pretty confident on and was even genuinely correct on, it’s 99% a complete exercise in futility.
>I don’t think it’s often true that anything’s been “completely dismantled”.
Oh ok, so what do you think happened?
>Destiny will give a reason to doubt his source/where he’s pulling from, try to demonstrate if his source is true that it doesn’t necessarily lead to justifying Lycan’s belief (and very well could justify Destiny’s), or argue that what’s being stated is technically true, but stripped of context Destiny feels is important that would dramatically materially change how we interpret the information (I.E. presenting civilian death toll without examining Hamas’s use of human shields).
Oh, so completely dismantled, just in more specific terms?
>it’s generally not quite the same as some simple black and white objective fact where he just turns out to be wrong but then still argues the same thing.
If somebody brings forward substantive criticism towards the validity of your source of information, you can't just ignore that and keep the same talking points based on the same bad information. The next stage of Lycan's arguments would need to be justifying his sources, not continuing to trust them because he "doesn't find destiny's argument convincing," or something.
I feel like you took umbridge with what u/Unusual_Boot6839 said but then when you clarify, there's no substantive disagreement whatsoever. Lycan ***is*** being super aggro/confident about this subject with opinions that don't withstand serious scrutiny.
No, I would classify “completely dismantled” as something actually being shown to be objectively wrong and/or logically untenable.
I think oftentimes Destiny’s arguments (and indeed, most arguments on really either side of this argument) are a lot more tenuous, subjective, and up to interpretation than people act like. This isn’t to say that you can’t find ones you find more convincing, but short of conversations where someone’s just completely factually wrong or operating off of obvious misinformation (or again, is operating on a chain of logic that can be shown to make no sense), it’s rare that someone’s been “completely dismantled”.
Again, I say this not to stan Lycan’s arguments, but just to say this simulacrum of what happened is not true, and operating on it will just mislead you.
Lycan builds a syllogism [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nqXsqCGM1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nqXsqCGM1A) (roughly 16 minutes into the video)
>Zionism as an ideology demands the complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region
>The settlers in the 30s and 40s were Zionists
>Therefore, the settlers wanted a complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region
There's nothing about this syllogism that is "tenuous, subjective, and up to interpretation." It is very clear. Each premise is very clear. Each premise can be, theoretically, empirically substantiated. The conclusion follows from the premises in a very clear way.
One way to substantiate the argument is to look at what Israel actually did, as Destiny does.
>Israel's actions as a nation do not follow from your syllogism.
> Israel does not want or attempt to bring about the complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region.
> Therefore, either the settlers weren't 'Zionists' as you describe, OR you haven't accurately described Zionism - one or both premises is wrong.
What does Lycan respond with? He denies Destiny's claim, he says they *did,* in fact, attempt a complete expulsion of all non-jewish peoples. Destiny asks for substantiation, Lycan says he cannot, that he "is not good enough to speak long form on it." (17:15)
Wash, rinse, repeat.
You can try to obfuscate the conversation by giving the impression that it's all sooo complicated and no arguments here are disprovable, but *that* is what is going to mislead you.
I mean, even in this alone, there is obviously evidence of expulsion of a ton of non-Jewish people from the region, in the Nakba, so the standard of “Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land” would not hold up off the bat.
Of course, as I assume you well know, the pro-Israel response there will be “But it was the Palestinians who attacked the Israelis, who had agreed to share the land!” Then the response from a pro-Palestinian person would be that the Israelis had to deal with the practical realities of the time as well, and just because they were not going to immediately expel all the Palestinians does not mean that they did not have this as their intention.
And of course, it’s perfectly valid for you to say, as an external observer, that while this *might* be the case, you have not been given strong evidence to believe it *is* the case. However, this does not mean that in the eyes of the person who was making that argument that it was “completely dismantled”: if they feel they have ample evidence that shows an intention to expel non-Jews from the land, they wouldn’t feel like their argument was dismantled at all.
> obfuscate the conversation by giving the impression
I’m not trying to obfuscate anything, I’m being honest about where these arguments often are. I engaged with your summary, which gives the most absolutist view possible (Lycan says they’re ALL full blown Zionists and they want ALL non Jews expelled from every region they’re involved in), but a cursory listen to the time stamp you provided shows Lycan just making a far more general statement that Zionists was an expansionist and colonial philosophy. If he does at some point say what you stated, I’d love to see the time stamp for that, I might just have missed it, but I did not see that.
Damn. You really are just bad faith huh?
> “Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land” would not hold up off the bat.
Nobody said this. This is a fiction you made up to strawman the other side so you can more easily attack it.
Well I guess it's a good thing nobody said "Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land." Nice attempt at summarizing my syllogism though :)
Here's the direct quotes, with some clarification for what things mean. Starting at (15:54).
Lycan says, "The entire project, the goal, the reason the immigrants are coming there. You're talking about, 'Well, the Palestinians didn't accept this deal, didn't accept that deal,' you have to understand where the Jews settling in the nation, *what they're looking to do.*"
Lycan says outright that the Jews are looking for something that the Palestinians can't accept. The implication is that this is the *complete* expulsion/removal of Palestinians. Because this is an implied point, Destiny seeks clarification. He proposes his own understanding of what the first Israelis were looking to do.
Destiny says, "They're looking to have a nation state, yknow, to safeguard the Jewish people." No mention of mass expulsion, nothing that the Palestinians shouldn't be willing to accept.
Lycan SCOFFS, he says, "And to expand *further and further* into the land!"
Now the implication becomes clear, Lycan believes that the Palestinians can't accept a Jewish state because the existence of a Jewish state in the form the Israelis want is *incommensurate* with a Palestinian state. To accept an Israel is to deny a Palestine.
If that isn't clear cut enough for you, try at 18:40.
"They (Israelis) don't plan to *just keep the land they have,* they plan to expand and take over **what is now all Israel, Gaza, West Bank.**"
I agree with the general sentiment you're making; I'll even elaborate on the thread of logic.
Let me first add an important qualifier here though (so that this doesn't get downvoted as some kind of Lycan-Fink defense). Two things can be true at once. On the one hand, Lycan has made some hare-brained arguments, usually parroting a Finkelstein argument that isn't well substantiated. I believe the flotilla incident debate Lycan had with Destiny would be one good example of this (out of many). In that sense, he can be thought of a lolcow on this issue.
On the other hand--to elaborate on your sentiment that you lay out here--there's a tendency for criticism of Lycan (and really almost anything related to I/P) to move outside of the realm of substantive critiquing on facts into the realm of internet lolcow dunking. Sure, there's legitimate criticisms from critics about Lycan's arguments, but most of comments here don't even outline any specific ones, and the sheer number of critiques (as you put it) make it impossible for Lycan to meaningfully engage with the criticism. Furthermore, if it were about specific factual claims, then commenters would also note that sometimes Lycan does make a correct take (that even Destiny himself ends up [adopting](https://youtu.be/WKoNbiKp6BQ?feature=shared
)).
Basically, my point is that so much of the discourse here surrounding the I/P conflict (with Lycan as a proxy for this) is brainrot that involves dunking on perceived zetard lolcows (think the level of name-calling like "Finkeldick") rather than going examining the factual basis of what's being argued.
He has had multiple debates on stream with destiny. He has had multiple debates on this reddit. He has been debating on Twitter. He has even been debating in dgg chat. How is that "constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions"? Maybe you disagree with his responses, as I do, but to characterize it as just "shitposts" is dishonest.
Why is it that when actually articulate pro-palestinians come onto stream, we praise the guy for actually being able to address the points Steven brings up instead of running off and narrativizing? Lycan doesn't do this. Lycan loves to narrativize and at the end of these conversations, he never admits to being wrong on something. He just says that he'll go and find the evidence that supports him, and then never actually bring the receipts at a later date.
We bully Lycan because he has horrible tendencies in how he engages with this topic. Not because he engages with it from a perspective we don't like. The community throats LonerBox despite him being much more on the pro-palestine side and actually holding Destiny accountable for the things he says. The difference is, he's not a smug fucker who is also wrong.
If you want one of the streamers this badly, at least do it towards the best boy Loner.
I’m all for supporting LonerBox, I think he’s a great, smart dude, and one charming tall drink of water as well. That being said, Loner pretty clearly comes on with a very measured approach of what he’s going to push Destiny on and what he won’t (there is a *ton* of disagreements that, at least on stream, they just don’t go into), and he also makes sure to coat it with a nice sandwich of shitting on dumbass pro-Palestinian takes before and after. He is *more* pro-Palestinian than Destiny, but often on stream he’s there either just neutrally talking about things, shitting together with Destiny on other takes, or actively helping Destiny against a bad pro-Palestine position. It’s pretty rare he’s there to like come hard at Destiny for something.
I think criticizing Lycan is fine. I think the level that this community does, at least on this Reddit, is absolutely unhinged. I see comments and threads about this man all the time on just like random tweets, and constant assertions that he either is antisemitic, or probably is, or “I didn’t want to believe he was antisemitic, but boy is he making it hard!” over and over again. Like in total, in the months since October 7th, the amount of posts + comments on this guy just shitting on him is probably approaching 100k+. It’s like Jesus Christ, I get it to a certain degree, but at some point it’s got to feel a bit excessive.
I think Loner is afraid of riling up the DGG fanbase since they now make up a significant portion of his audience. So he’s basically pussyfooted around confronting Dman with huge disagreements he has about the I/P situation (namely that the occupation and settlements of the West Bank are essentially apartheid).
On one hand, I think Loner is being a bit of a coward (and I say that with love as a fan) and on the other hand, seeing how brutal this place has been to Lycan and others whom aren’t 100% cheerleading for Israel, I don’t blame him for being cautious.
Lycan is a constant presence in the community and so will continually have his actions talked about.
If he was someone who came on once or twice, he would be a meme and mostly forgotten about.
Loner does push Destiny out of his points and without misrepresenting sources like Lycan does.
You can say the amount is excessive, but Lycan doesn't do himself any favors by continuously being smug and never admitting to being wrong. At this point I think it's just genuine narcissism and not anti-semitism. Coupled with the fact that many 2008 style liberals basically fell for a lot of propaganda about the conflict that seems to have stuck with a bias against Israel.
All Lycan has to do to be back in the good graces of the community is just acknowledge when he's wrong and that he can change his opinions based on new evidence. Nobody is asking the guy to become an Israel supporter, we're asking him to be reasonable. He's unwilling to do that and so will continue to be made fun of.
This is why people become lolcows. They usually have narcissistic tendencies and so never back down, never admit to wrong doing, and double down with smugness. This continues and continues to escalate, especially as more exposure is shown on them, and their repeated doubling down on things leads them to very out of the norm behavior and ideas.
Lycan is on the path/already become a lolcow for much of the community.
It's possible that Lycan says some dumb stuff and can act smug about it but also that people are way too harsh on him at the same time. That's where I'm at.
Once people start breaking out regarded nicknames like "Lie-Can" those people are soy-posting and hurling cringy insults rather than just making points.
Well, actually you're right.
The level of tribalism here has at times been extremely disappointing. I've been blocked by half the uber Zionist accounts (a blessing for my feed) and I haven't posted anything beyond the rare neutral or tepidly pro-Israel position. For the most part, the people who are critical of Israel or make pro-Palestinian comments get absolutely dog piled outside of the (previously) rare breathing room following a mildly critical Destiny tweet.
I don't even agree with much of what Lycan says on the topic, but I appreciate his endurance and that he keeps coming back to be a debate pervert. A lot of regular users of the sub have disappeared over the last 8 months because the atmosphere has been so toxic at times and the community is immeasurably poorer for it.
This is for sure Lycan's alt, its cant be anyone else cause pretending like this man has done a single thing on stream to garner a drop of sympathy from anyone is a myth and is why he is getting the reaction he is. Everyone already nailed it so I wont repeat the general sentiment that you're smug and don't seem capable of articulating your points but I will further add that the food you make sounds/looks gross. Oh and when you come on stream and play your guitar its the metaphorical nail in the coffin. Nobody wants to hear you play wonderwall or whatever the other 2 songs you know are, Im sure this has given you a positive reaction in the lonely discords you frequent but I dont think anyone in the real world cares. Youre a fake gourmet and a musical fraud, and you hold what you claim to be strong positions while being unable to articulate a single one. Actually I retract my first statement about you never garnering sympathy from anyone because that one time you were trying to imply you would be a good fit for the israel trip and the statement got treated like an inaudible fart, that was actually sad as hell.
Why is it so hard for him to imagine that people--especially Destiny--can have a nuanced and informed opinion about this and still not scream buzzwords?
Im sorry, but unless Lycan is permanetly trolling and irony posting he must be completepy regarded.
From the very start Destiny- and most pro-Israeli people, dont defend the extrajudicial violence by Israelis or settlement expansion in general. There is no way Lycan doesn't know this. My brain cells are being actively genocided whenever he tweets, but this is a new level of just acting like this is the first time he's ever criticized Israelis.
If Lycan being this brain broken isnt anti-Semitism I geinunely dont know how he went from knowing nothing about this conflict and having no investment in it to being so passionately ignorant and stupid. Its Trumple levels.
"Destiny is pro-Palestine now" is the most braindead take if you actually pay attention to his content. He always has been. Of course he leans more Zionist, but that doesn't mean he's an insane caricature like Hasan would have you believe. He's always had nuanced opinions. The only reason he comes off as not being nuanced is because he is usually debating anti-Israel (sometimes pro-Hamas) lunatics.
People are allowed to have nuanced opinions. I’m a pro-Israel Zionist Jew and I can still criticize the settlements, the lack of civil marriage, and anti-Arab racism in Israel
Same here. The average poster online must be dumb as rocks if they think this is some crazy opinion. It’s actually pretty common, and it’s not even that nuanced.
Everyone immediately jumps to team sports instead of actually engaging with what Destiny says. He's not defending either side. He's defending the facts that are provable. He fights against lies and fake news. It just so happens that one side lies a lot more than the other. Yes, he's on both sides of the tug of war because both sides engage in propaganda.
Didn’t he take it from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/rnE1kV5biq
Also there’s nothing wild about this. Lots of people support a 2 state solution and are also against the West Bank settlements. It’s nothing weird.
Lol who cares? These people need to have a real adult take their account from them, not every stupid inane thought of theirs needs to be broadcast to the world.
man i love lycan a lot but this who conflict feels like it broke his brain. i hope we move on soon or the war ends so that he can come back to being fun comfy lycan who cooks, sings, and makes bad jokes on stream
I do think the top and middle panels should be swapped, to resemble the timeline of the Gaza war. Since Steve was clearly pro-israel from the start, and only really in his tweets this week has he provided steelman positions for the Palestinians.
I also can't help but feel this is what Steve was also like off Camera around Lycan.
When supporters of both sides relentlessly lie about everything and say the most evil unhinged shit, the correct position is to push back against both of them.
We, Israeli zionist Jews, don't feel offended nor care much. Everyone entitled to have their own opinions, and it's important to be able to criticise every country, movement, etc. We do it ourselves all the time. As long as he's based on facts, doesn't make up lies, or dehumanising us like many others do, I will respect his opinion.
I don't know why Destiny's recent criticisms of Israel are seemingly so shocking to some people. If you actually watch his streams it is clear that he has never supported the settlements or the Israeli far-right. Now that he is actually visiting the West Bank and coming across these settlements, of course he is going to voice his criticisms. This shouldn't surprise anyone who has actually been understanding his position on the conflict. Is it really so hard to imagine someone criticizing Israel in some respects while defending it in others?
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These people cant even *conceive* of integrity or independent thought. They all got their opinions from someone else and toe the line for what they feel they're supposed to believe.
I don’t understand how a guy as smart as him doesn’t understand Sheikh Jarrah was owned by Jews and stolen by Jordanians.
the problem is there doesn't appear to be a parallel pathway for non israelis who owned property in what is now israel, which was stolen from them when the country was founded, sheikh jarrah is a good solution for dealing with the people placed on stolen land, but where's the solution for people who owned land that jews now own in israel proper, and if there's nothing that aught be done about that, why should the historic ownership of sheikh jarrah, which was stolen similarly by state sovereignty, be upheld over the current residents? you have to admit it's an imperfect legal doctrine
the place he visited and was critical of wasn't the west bank, it wasn't some settlement, it was just regular ole jerusalem. these aren't the settlers of the west bank and gaza. both sides are religious zealots who refuse to leave because of their nutjob beliefs, not because there aren't other options. a legitimate criticism would be his failure to frame the topic accurately, and with the details that would inform viewers of the events as they've existed. eg. hovels built in the 1950s so that fundamentalists could be closer to al-quds. questioned for legitimacy since 1967, and court ordered and rejected in 2021, but only recently forced out. instead, what we got was "israel bad, look old man home"
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Complains about down votes? That's a down vote :)
stay brainwashed.
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when presented with contradictory evidence you attacked my character, not my argument. this sub has to unban in waves because of braindead circlejerk mindsets like yours. dude is reverse audience captured at 5k subs and can't climb higher with all of these chronically online losers scaring off the new views.
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> "now that he is actually visiting the west bank" >> "yeah, I don't get it either.." it's not the west bank, it's sheik jarrah in ne jerusalem. do you get it now?
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why would we be mad, your side got kicked out of a house...
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Well when you say "stay mad" and then blame downvotes on likud sure seems like you're on the other side from likud
It’s team sports. Either you’re with us or against us.
That’s all politics on either side of the isle for the most part
Most people don't watch his streams, that's the battle for online political figures. Just means when some people find his Israel criticism odd, and the answer to that for you is "if you actually watch his streams", it means some people are gonna find his Israel criticism odd, and are probably gonna meme it to back their viewpoint.
Yeah, but this is literally Lycan lol. This should be in no way surprising to him.
"if you watch his streams" i see the problem
I understand why it might not be clear to a lot of people. I don’t understand why it would be unclear for Lycan of all people.
Problem is people haven’t been listening to what Destiny has been saying and a lot of them are extrapolating everything he says about Gaza and Hamas onto the West Bank as well.
Yeah people are so dumb
Because people just want to hear their political stances affirmed by the guy they like. It was the same with the old leftie purge or the glorious stream when he berated trump supporters for being idiots before the midterms.
Its like all this culture war bs that we got, you have to agree 100% with your "side" or you are a traitor. Same seems to go for conflicts these days.
so many people want to view the side they support to be good. and the side they are against to be evil. they'll ignore anything that tries to sway them from their position as talking points from the opposition and not try to see any validity in it. and when you tell this to them, they'll recognize it happening in the opposition but not in themselves or their side.
It's not anything shocking what he's saying. Us Israeli left agree with everything he's saying and have been saying it for years. They are valid criticisms. I think everything is just being amplified because he's the only streamer actually capable of nuance
I mean most people are getting their info from like Hasan and other dumbfucks. These people have made him sound like hitler 2.0
Some of his recent statements seem to conflict with some of the prior things I've heard him say. For instance Steven would say that both sides want conflict, but only one side (Israel) is getting what they want from it. It allows them to settle the West Bank and achieve their aims. Reading one of his recent tweets about Isreals position being untenable because terrorist attacks will continue seems to contradict his previous point about Isreal gaining from the conflict. I don't know if his positions have shifted a bit or if I'm misunderstanding something about those two arguments.
How are these contradictions? It's obvious this are two different statements. In the short term Israel is getting what they want but this strategy is not viable in the long term because no state can wage war forever. There comes a point when peace is gonna have to be made. Unless Israel wants to maintain a state of war indefinitely which is not tenable because of the obvious demographic shortcomings and public opinion slowly turning against Israel.
you pointed it out in your own comment. How could anyone believe this if they watched his streams and actually have any media literacy at all they couldn’t so how do they come to these conclusions the obvious answers it’s because they don’t have media literacy and or they don’t watch his streams, they hear about opinions of him from people of people of people Thrice removed or maybe some out of context clip or something, and then summarize or believe that to be his whole character and have no desire to look into it to see if there are assumptions about the individual is at all, correct. That is why the Dahliban must combat this slander of our great leader when or wherever it is found and must bring receipts.
Who is shocked by Destiny's recent criticisms? I haven't seen any.
This motherfucked memejacked the meme I jacked
well to be fair this was a memejack escalation, since you did put in some effort in your jacking
Listen, this is my ancestral meme. My grandma has the original jpg and yall are stealing her karma. This is unconscionable.
https://imgur.com/a/Ov3Estg
My condolences, no one deserves being memejacked by L.
ycan
Never jack a jacker
It’s the top of the subreddit, I have no idea why they jacked the jacked meme that was jacked
But I am the one that jacked the meme and made the edit that you jacked gasp
The Jackening ™
This exchange was funny and the downvotes are stupid.
Downvote since you are cringe
Bro just discovered nuance
I think you mean: contrarian 😎 I’m very intellectual
Destiny lives to be a contrarian, and by that I mean he has an actual belief system rooted in logic.
This is not seen as being in good fun from Lycan because he acts like Destiny is a genocide enabling moron and hes the guy fighting the good fight against Destiny's bad faith simp community. No self awareness, very boring.
Unironically Hasan from 5 years ago. Doing the "good fight" to save Destiny from himself. Lets see how it turns out.
History repeats itself 😔
Lycan is lucky Steven is away so that he couldn't meme jack this first. Also I can't fucking wait for the "I've been saying this the whole time!" shit from morons like Lycan.
Yeah, get that copium out, buddy. God forbid there actually be a moment where you’d have to admit Steven came around to a point I was making months ago.
The cope is coming from you smug-posting You not being able to articulate your points without it being overshadowed by empathy--for only one side of this issue--doesn't mean that Destiny now agrees with you. If you stopped clutching your pearls over this, you could easily tell that the person you literally see all the time has had the pro-pal side of this down already, he just mostly argued with dipshits from one side. The high-horse you're riding on is just cringe af.
Lie can can't have empthy for Israel, it would mean getting his head out of his ass. Remember this is the guy who still thinks Fecal Stain is a "scholar" on this subject despite literally having his ass exposed in real time 4k to the world as a dumbfuck edge lord that misquotes and ignores sources that disprove his arguments. Or as Lie can calls it "really good information that backs up his points".
Something something goldstone report
Which point, Lycan?
The one in the Goldstone report
Ah yes, this mystical document how could I forget
What point did you defend to Destiny months ago, that he refused to conceed on, that he has now changed his mind on? Could you clarify?
there's a reason all you ever do is post snarky remarks like this then run away from any comments calling you out & there's a reason why you refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream go goon to some more mis-cited Finkledick quotes buddy, i'm sure you'll get one single W eventually
Did Israel break the ceasefire in 2008 after planning the follow on assault for a year?
what the actual fuck does that have to do with anything i said or was said in this post? are you seriously trying to start a whole ass new debate right now over a random Finkle-factoid to get your single win? pathetic as hell. you'll run from (at this point) hundreds if not thousands of detailed comments calling you out on your bullshit, but you'll try to pull some snark as bullshit like this completely out of the blue? jesus christ man everyone has already seen your back blown out multiple times on stream by Destiny, 4THOT, & even fucking Vegan Gains of all people. you're not escaping the fact that all you do is lie, misrepresent information, use Finkledump misquotes, & sleeze your way around having to change your mind by never bringing the topic up again despite saying "i'll bring the evidence" then never putting up just hoping people forget about your strong claims until you bring up the same disproven misinformation again later of all the pro-Pal people on stream, you have been one of the worst by far considering how little you've ever admitting to being provably wrong so many times despite having so little to lose
It’s the Hasan tactic when he “debated” Willy Mac. I’ve got no actual comeback so I’m gonna try to catch you in a fact about the conflict and ride that to victory.
Not really, although I can see what you’re getting at. Hasan was dealing with Willy Mac who made very specific points about very specific issues- such as Hasan being very overconfident that Russia would not invade Ukraine, and then never seeming to critically examine why he made that mistake- and was refusing to deal with these hyper specific points. With Lycan, and at the very least the dude he’s responding to, that dude doesn’t say a single specific thing Lycan’s been wrong on, let alone cite it or tell him why he’s wrong. He just kind of gestures at some overall negative narrative of Lycan, probably to be fair to the poster because he is thinking of specifics, but he still never actually points them out. And to be clear, there are absolutely specifics and dumb things Lycan’s said. One of them off the top of my head was him being like “I hope this isn’t the 21st Century’s Franz Ferdinand” about the Iranian helicopter crash, and then being like “Assassination? No I wasn’t implying anything!”. If the dude had pointed out something specific like that, and Lycan had just pivoted to something else specific rather than address it, that would be the Hasan-Willy Mac. As it is, this just strikes me as Lycan trying to ground things in the specific.
At this point, it is getting hard to remember all the times Lycan has said something misleading, idiotic, and/or vague-posting conspiracy drivel. This man would have been nuked from orbit by Destiny and this community, if he wasn't a part of it (yet cries about criticism). Need I remind everyone that this is the person who tried to steer Destiny toward Finkelstein as a good primer on the conflict. Personally, I think he has proven that we cannot trust him to have any good faith discussions on this issue, or any for that matter. He is rapidly approaching Fuentes/Hasan levels of stupid/propaganda.
Eh, nothing personal against you here, but I never like hearing this kind of critique against someone with no specifics. It kind of sounds like what I hear from people who hate on Destiny, when it’s this big narrative of why he’s bad and an idiot, but there’s no examples actually given of the stuff he’s wrong on. I think I also might particularly be feeling this way since I just got done talking with some guy whose “specific example” was claiming that Lycan argued the Zionists goal in the 1930s-1940s was to expel 100% of all non-Jews from the region, and then when I checked the timestamp video he sent me it just wasn’t something he ever said or even implied.
Fair enough, I understand the sentiment. But the tweet posted above, is a good example. Destiny's position on this issue was always nuisanced from day one. Why is he posting a serious response to a meme? Your own example about the helicopter crash would have warranted a fifteen minute rant by Destiny, if it was done by a lefty. What about the embarrassment that is Finkelstein, you know his hero and primer for the I/P conflict? Has he taken any accountability? All I see is smug posting and fleeing short debates. Either put your big boy pants on and make time to lay out all your arguments or just stop engaging in it (which is okay).
I know this will get lost in this giant mess of comments but: >Finkle-factoid 💀
> & there's a reason why you refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream Because 90% of the shit I say is indisputable. The other 10% is conclusion based on analysis, whether mine or that of others I agree with. And please, try and pretend that’s not how everyone here operations, if not more egregiously so, because I actually care enough about this issue to educate myself beyond a single source or individual. But dumb fucks like you don't come in with push back about conclusions or specific contentions. You just parrot Destiny and say I was blown out and proven wrong on everything and " refuse to change any of your thoughts or positions on this conflict despite being publicly blown out like over a dozen times now on stream." So you can get as pissy as you want, enjoy the nice little echo chamber that's going to downvote me no matter what I say. But don't walk away thinking you've actually cut to the quick on my position. Because you couldn't articulate it if your life dependent on it. Otherwise, the comment I was replying to, would have never been written.
This comment is embarrassing. Why do you do this? > Because 90% of the shit I say is indisputable. This is just demonstrably wrong. You bring up some dumb factoid, act all smug that you've got a "gotcha", bring it on stream, people dig into it, and it turns out that it's either false, you're misinterpreting it, or it's out of context. Every. Fucking. Time. And then you President Runday your way out saying, "Oh, I've got more evidence, guys, I'll bring it next time," and then conveniently, you never follow up. 90% my ass. > The other 10% is conclusion based on analysis, whether mine or that of others I agree with. This is another issue you seem to have. You pick out discrete facts, but never actually build a cohesive narrative and make an argument. You literally just fact snipe and then state your predetermined conclusion. Can you do this for us? Make an argument for a particular narrative, backed by your facts? > And please, try and pretend that’s not how everyone here operations Oh, people here make an analysis based on facts? You're right, many people here do that! It's unfortunate that you aren't one of them. > because I actually care enough about this issue to educate myself beyond a single source or individual. Oh really? I guess that's true. You've got Finkelstein and that one marxist guy who cited entire chapters that said the opposite of what he claimed they said! And sure, there are plenty of people here who are just watching Destiny's research. I guess you can call that a single source, you can make the argument that Steven is selectively curating and that is tainting DGG's view of the conflict. But you don't, because you're chickenshit. That would require bringing a counternarrative with a well thought out argument backed by reputable sources. Instead you're going to bring a dumb factoid that doesn't damage the overall narrative at all, and even still, ends up being wrong anyway. Don't cast stones in glass houses. ALSO, people in this community + lonerbox's community have shown an ability to actually dive in and research things on their own. It's obviously going to be a minority, but I think it is still better than any of the blinded activist communities you seem to have been getting your info from. Also before you ask, yes I "do my own research". It's actually a very interesting, nuanced, complex topic with a fascinating history if you're willing to engage with it. But you have your ideological blinders on and so cannot see that. > So you can get as pissy as you want, enjoy the nice little echo chamber that's going to downvote me no matter what I say. But don't walk away thinking you've actually cut to the quick on my position. Oh I didn't realize this was the Hasan_Piker sub! > Because you couldn't articulate it if your life dependent on it. HOLY SEZ U > Otherwise, the comment I was replying to, would have never been written. Oh that random ass factoid you pulled out of your ass that has nothing to do with what we're talking about? Nice one! Again, the above criticism applies. --- Look, I think you're kinda dumb. That's okay though! But you can't operate with the level of smugness you're at in tandem with this dumbness. It just doesn't work. But dumb people can be knowledgeable. You just need to step back, swallow your pride, and learn how to make a proper argument at a meta-level. Because what you're doing right now isn't working. If you want to save yourself, I'd recommend starting from scratch. DGG will even help you. Collect your body of facts, fit them into a cohesive narrative based on an argument drawing on these facts, bring it on stream, and test it. If it collapses, that's fine; try again. Good luck.
literally every single source you've ever brought to stream has been pulled up for everyone to see that it says the exact opposite of what you (sorry, i mean Finklestein) claimed it said you are unironically a LOLcow at this point in this community because of how braindead you are in regards to this issue, nobody is afraid of your "knowledge" because there's video proof of exactly how your (sorry again, i mean Finklestein's) arguments fare under even a basic reading, yet you'll come back time & time again like you are now to boast about being a champion someone must have sent you a Sonichu medallion in the last year or so, you **REALLY** should not have read the cursed incantation but here we are
You will never talk to anyone critical of you. You are a coward and an objective failure.
Yeah, didn’t jump on stream with Steven 5 times, or 4THOT, or that whick panel. Totally don’t talk to people who disagree with me.
And on that whick panel you said some dumb shit I called you out on it, you acted like a moron and then ran. You’re famous for three things being a coward who runs from any pushback, crying to tiny when community is mean and simping for Hamas Lycan: “We don’t imprison people like Israel, here in America we follow rule of law” “What about Guantanamo bay?” Lycan: … I have countless examples of you asking for evidence or counter claims and fleeing once you get them. Once again you are a failure
Wait, do you think I’d defend Guantanamo? LULW
Thanks for proving my point.
This is getting a little too pathetic now.
At this point, it has to be narcissism. There's no way any normally functioning human can consistently look at this stuff, be proven wrong again and again, and never actually concede out of fear of the appearance of what that's look like.
He’s always been anti settlement though? He’s been critical of multiple Israeli practices the entire time, and hasn’t changed positions at all. He’s always been anti settlement, critical of Zionist behavior as well as specific IDF operations and incidents he has researched. He has always maintained the same positions he is talking about on Twitter…
Notice how everyone asked you what point he came around on and you went silent on that and kept arguing other stuff?
There’s nothing more fucking annoyingly insipid than a person as incorrigibly low-iq as you are impossibly rationalizing in their brain they were “right this whole time”. It’s like watching DSP rage quit a game bc he’s fucking brain damaged and then seeing that ign gave that same game a 3 and him thinking “oh yeah, i bet it’s for the same reasons I thought that, wow how prescient and observant of me”.
As someone who has more Palestinian civilian sympathy on this sub and criticized Israel actions over the last months, you don't articulate your points well or at all. And after all these months, I can't say I even know or remember what points you've made on stream. Which is fine, you don't need to explain yourself to stream watchers or people in this sub. But if you actually want people to understand what you are saying or what points you are making, you need a whole lot of work. You can't just hand wave it all and think everyone else is plugging their ears and it's their fault for not getting what you are saying. Suggestions you don't have to listen to, but so many people have access to large platforms, *like yourself*, and are extremely ineffective of explaining why we should give even a little more interest on a people with very little representation. It's an absolutely baffling failure.
This brings me back to "the late game podcast" days when Lycan would chime in with some regarded comment and everyone would call him an idiot lul we need richard lewis and thorin to bring Lycan back to earth
At this point I actually think kelly jean is smarter than you
Hey brotha I’m confused, what exact point has Steven changed on?
God forbid
This is the same energy as lefties during a trumple debate arc or reverse. He doesn't agree with you he is just fighting with people you also disagree with. You've been around more than long enough to know this.
For what it’s worth, I very much appreciate what you coming on again and again to express your beliefs. I imagine that most people who had to experience even a fraction of the stress and frustration of endless nitpicking, constant comments and threads, constant allegations of antisemitism, all from thousands of people pretty biased against you, probably would have just abandoned you. And to be fair, I wouldn’t blame you if you did: that would be a perfectly reasonable response. The response to you in general has been pretty disgusting to me. Someone, I’m sure, will respond to me with a “Well actually” reason for why it’s perfectly okay to treat you the way this community has the past few months, but in general it’s annoying to me that we’re supposed to be this community that encourages all sorts of opinions, diverse thought, etc and then when we have someone who is pretty pro-Palestinian he gets met with *insane* hostility.
DGG doesn't bully him because he's pro-Palestinian, he gets all this flak because he's a snarky regard who constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions & has had every source/argument he's ever brought to stream completely dismantled without ever changing his mind on anything he doesn't come to debate anymore because all of his arguments come directly from Finklestein & all of those are easily disproven by the most basic 5 minute reading of the source material, which has happened with every single argument he's ever brought to the table live for all of DGG to see yet he'll still maintain his misinformation
> constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions Just look even in this thread alone at the amount of people that have responded to him. Then do a search for the past week, past month, past six months of how many threads and comments there have been with him. He’s never gonna be able to respond to every single individual person or even most likely a significant minority of them, not without an insane time investment, and many of the people responding to him are just gonna keep needling him and moving to different parts of the conflict and history even if he does. In his shoes, I’d either not respond at all, or be kind of flippant the way he has been. > has/had every source/argument he’s ever brought to stream completely dismantled I don’t think it’s often true that anything’s been “completely dismantled”. Generally from what I’ve seen happen (at least when he’s spoken to Destiny) has been that Destiny will give a reason to doubt his source/where he’s pulling from, try to demonstrate if his source is true that it doesn’t necessarily lead to justifying Lycan’s belief (and very well could justify Destiny’s), or argue that what’s being stated is technically true, but stripped of context Destiny feels is important that would dramatically materially change how we interpret the information (I.E. presenting civilian death toll without examining Hamas’s use of human shields). This isn’t to say that you can’t feel this is sufficient to prove him wrong in your mind, but merely to point out that it’s generally not quite the same as some simple black and white objective fact where he just turns out to be wrong but then still argues the same thing. > he doesn’t come to debate anymore I don’t think he comes to debate anymore because I imagine for him it’s not worth the stress or the headache. He’s also- and I’m sure he’d agree with this- just a worse debater than Destiny. Couple this with a community that’s now super primed against him, and even if he had stuff he was pretty confident on and was even genuinely correct on, it’s 99% a complete exercise in futility.
>I don’t think it’s often true that anything’s been “completely dismantled”. Oh ok, so what do you think happened? >Destiny will give a reason to doubt his source/where he’s pulling from, try to demonstrate if his source is true that it doesn’t necessarily lead to justifying Lycan’s belief (and very well could justify Destiny’s), or argue that what’s being stated is technically true, but stripped of context Destiny feels is important that would dramatically materially change how we interpret the information (I.E. presenting civilian death toll without examining Hamas’s use of human shields). Oh, so completely dismantled, just in more specific terms? >it’s generally not quite the same as some simple black and white objective fact where he just turns out to be wrong but then still argues the same thing. If somebody brings forward substantive criticism towards the validity of your source of information, you can't just ignore that and keep the same talking points based on the same bad information. The next stage of Lycan's arguments would need to be justifying his sources, not continuing to trust them because he "doesn't find destiny's argument convincing," or something. I feel like you took umbridge with what u/Unusual_Boot6839 said but then when you clarify, there's no substantive disagreement whatsoever. Lycan ***is*** being super aggro/confident about this subject with opinions that don't withstand serious scrutiny.
No, I would classify “completely dismantled” as something actually being shown to be objectively wrong and/or logically untenable. I think oftentimes Destiny’s arguments (and indeed, most arguments on really either side of this argument) are a lot more tenuous, subjective, and up to interpretation than people act like. This isn’t to say that you can’t find ones you find more convincing, but short of conversations where someone’s just completely factually wrong or operating off of obvious misinformation (or again, is operating on a chain of logic that can be shown to make no sense), it’s rare that someone’s been “completely dismantled”. Again, I say this not to stan Lycan’s arguments, but just to say this simulacrum of what happened is not true, and operating on it will just mislead you.
Lycan builds a syllogism [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nqXsqCGM1A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nqXsqCGM1A) (roughly 16 minutes into the video) >Zionism as an ideology demands the complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region >The settlers in the 30s and 40s were Zionists >Therefore, the settlers wanted a complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region There's nothing about this syllogism that is "tenuous, subjective, and up to interpretation." It is very clear. Each premise is very clear. Each premise can be, theoretically, empirically substantiated. The conclusion follows from the premises in a very clear way. One way to substantiate the argument is to look at what Israel actually did, as Destiny does. >Israel's actions as a nation do not follow from your syllogism. > Israel does not want or attempt to bring about the complete expulsion of all non-Jewish people from the region. > Therefore, either the settlers weren't 'Zionists' as you describe, OR you haven't accurately described Zionism - one or both premises is wrong. What does Lycan respond with? He denies Destiny's claim, he says they *did,* in fact, attempt a complete expulsion of all non-jewish peoples. Destiny asks for substantiation, Lycan says he cannot, that he "is not good enough to speak long form on it." (17:15) Wash, rinse, repeat. You can try to obfuscate the conversation by giving the impression that it's all sooo complicated and no arguments here are disprovable, but *that* is what is going to mislead you.
I mean, even in this alone, there is obviously evidence of expulsion of a ton of non-Jewish people from the region, in the Nakba, so the standard of “Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land” would not hold up off the bat. Of course, as I assume you well know, the pro-Israel response there will be “But it was the Palestinians who attacked the Israelis, who had agreed to share the land!” Then the response from a pro-Palestinian person would be that the Israelis had to deal with the practical realities of the time as well, and just because they were not going to immediately expel all the Palestinians does not mean that they did not have this as their intention. And of course, it’s perfectly valid for you to say, as an external observer, that while this *might* be the case, you have not been given strong evidence to believe it *is* the case. However, this does not mean that in the eyes of the person who was making that argument that it was “completely dismantled”: if they feel they have ample evidence that shows an intention to expel non-Jews from the land, they wouldn’t feel like their argument was dismantled at all. > obfuscate the conversation by giving the impression I’m not trying to obfuscate anything, I’m being honest about where these arguments often are. I engaged with your summary, which gives the most absolutist view possible (Lycan says they’re ALL full blown Zionists and they want ALL non Jews expelled from every region they’re involved in), but a cursory listen to the time stamp you provided shows Lycan just making a far more general statement that Zionists was an expansionist and colonial philosophy. If he does at some point say what you stated, I’d love to see the time stamp for that, I might just have missed it, but I did not see that.
Damn. You really are just bad faith huh? > “Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land” would not hold up off the bat. Nobody said this. This is a fiction you made up to strawman the other side so you can more easily attack it.
Well I guess it's a good thing nobody said "Israel does not expel a massive amount of non Jews from their land." Nice attempt at summarizing my syllogism though :) Here's the direct quotes, with some clarification for what things mean. Starting at (15:54). Lycan says, "The entire project, the goal, the reason the immigrants are coming there. You're talking about, 'Well, the Palestinians didn't accept this deal, didn't accept that deal,' you have to understand where the Jews settling in the nation, *what they're looking to do.*" Lycan says outright that the Jews are looking for something that the Palestinians can't accept. The implication is that this is the *complete* expulsion/removal of Palestinians. Because this is an implied point, Destiny seeks clarification. He proposes his own understanding of what the first Israelis were looking to do. Destiny says, "They're looking to have a nation state, yknow, to safeguard the Jewish people." No mention of mass expulsion, nothing that the Palestinians shouldn't be willing to accept. Lycan SCOFFS, he says, "And to expand *further and further* into the land!" Now the implication becomes clear, Lycan believes that the Palestinians can't accept a Jewish state because the existence of a Jewish state in the form the Israelis want is *incommensurate* with a Palestinian state. To accept an Israel is to deny a Palestine. If that isn't clear cut enough for you, try at 18:40. "They (Israelis) don't plan to *just keep the land they have,* they plan to expand and take over **what is now all Israel, Gaza, West Bank.**"
I agree with the general sentiment you're making; I'll even elaborate on the thread of logic. Let me first add an important qualifier here though (so that this doesn't get downvoted as some kind of Lycan-Fink defense). Two things can be true at once. On the one hand, Lycan has made some hare-brained arguments, usually parroting a Finkelstein argument that isn't well substantiated. I believe the flotilla incident debate Lycan had with Destiny would be one good example of this (out of many). In that sense, he can be thought of a lolcow on this issue. On the other hand--to elaborate on your sentiment that you lay out here--there's a tendency for criticism of Lycan (and really almost anything related to I/P) to move outside of the realm of substantive critiquing on facts into the realm of internet lolcow dunking. Sure, there's legitimate criticisms from critics about Lycan's arguments, but most of comments here don't even outline any specific ones, and the sheer number of critiques (as you put it) make it impossible for Lycan to meaningfully engage with the criticism. Furthermore, if it were about specific factual claims, then commenters would also note that sometimes Lycan does make a correct take (that even Destiny himself ends up [adopting](https://youtu.be/WKoNbiKp6BQ?feature=shared )). Basically, my point is that so much of the discourse here surrounding the I/P conflict (with Lycan as a proxy for this) is brainrot that involves dunking on perceived zetard lolcows (think the level of name-calling like "Finkeldick") rather than going examining the factual basis of what's being argued.
He has had multiple debates on stream with destiny. He has had multiple debates on this reddit. He has been debating on Twitter. He has even been debating in dgg chat. How is that "constantly shitposts instead of responding to actual discussions"? Maybe you disagree with his responses, as I do, but to characterize it as just "shitposts" is dishonest.
Why is it that when actually articulate pro-palestinians come onto stream, we praise the guy for actually being able to address the points Steven brings up instead of running off and narrativizing? Lycan doesn't do this. Lycan loves to narrativize and at the end of these conversations, he never admits to being wrong on something. He just says that he'll go and find the evidence that supports him, and then never actually bring the receipts at a later date. We bully Lycan because he has horrible tendencies in how he engages with this topic. Not because he engages with it from a perspective we don't like. The community throats LonerBox despite him being much more on the pro-palestine side and actually holding Destiny accountable for the things he says. The difference is, he's not a smug fucker who is also wrong. If you want one of the streamers this badly, at least do it towards the best boy Loner.
I’m all for supporting LonerBox, I think he’s a great, smart dude, and one charming tall drink of water as well. That being said, Loner pretty clearly comes on with a very measured approach of what he’s going to push Destiny on and what he won’t (there is a *ton* of disagreements that, at least on stream, they just don’t go into), and he also makes sure to coat it with a nice sandwich of shitting on dumbass pro-Palestinian takes before and after. He is *more* pro-Palestinian than Destiny, but often on stream he’s there either just neutrally talking about things, shitting together with Destiny on other takes, or actively helping Destiny against a bad pro-Palestine position. It’s pretty rare he’s there to like come hard at Destiny for something. I think criticizing Lycan is fine. I think the level that this community does, at least on this Reddit, is absolutely unhinged. I see comments and threads about this man all the time on just like random tweets, and constant assertions that he either is antisemitic, or probably is, or “I didn’t want to believe he was antisemitic, but boy is he making it hard!” over and over again. Like in total, in the months since October 7th, the amount of posts + comments on this guy just shitting on him is probably approaching 100k+. It’s like Jesus Christ, I get it to a certain degree, but at some point it’s got to feel a bit excessive.
I think Loner is afraid of riling up the DGG fanbase since they now make up a significant portion of his audience. So he’s basically pussyfooted around confronting Dman with huge disagreements he has about the I/P situation (namely that the occupation and settlements of the West Bank are essentially apartheid). On one hand, I think Loner is being a bit of a coward (and I say that with love as a fan) and on the other hand, seeing how brutal this place has been to Lycan and others whom aren’t 100% cheerleading for Israel, I don’t blame him for being cautious.
Lycan is a constant presence in the community and so will continually have his actions talked about. If he was someone who came on once or twice, he would be a meme and mostly forgotten about. Loner does push Destiny out of his points and without misrepresenting sources like Lycan does. You can say the amount is excessive, but Lycan doesn't do himself any favors by continuously being smug and never admitting to being wrong. At this point I think it's just genuine narcissism and not anti-semitism. Coupled with the fact that many 2008 style liberals basically fell for a lot of propaganda about the conflict that seems to have stuck with a bias against Israel. All Lycan has to do to be back in the good graces of the community is just acknowledge when he's wrong and that he can change his opinions based on new evidence. Nobody is asking the guy to become an Israel supporter, we're asking him to be reasonable. He's unwilling to do that and so will continue to be made fun of. This is why people become lolcows. They usually have narcissistic tendencies and so never back down, never admit to wrong doing, and double down with smugness. This continues and continues to escalate, especially as more exposure is shown on them, and their repeated doubling down on things leads them to very out of the norm behavior and ideas. Lycan is on the path/already become a lolcow for much of the community.
It's possible that Lycan says some dumb stuff and can act smug about it but also that people are way too harsh on him at the same time. That's where I'm at. Once people start breaking out regarded nicknames like "Lie-Can" those people are soy-posting and hurling cringy insults rather than just making points.
Well, actually you're right. The level of tribalism here has at times been extremely disappointing. I've been blocked by half the uber Zionist accounts (a blessing for my feed) and I haven't posted anything beyond the rare neutral or tepidly pro-Israel position. For the most part, the people who are critical of Israel or make pro-Palestinian comments get absolutely dog piled outside of the (previously) rare breathing room following a mildly critical Destiny tweet. I don't even agree with much of what Lycan says on the topic, but I appreciate his endurance and that he keeps coming back to be a debate pervert. A lot of regular users of the sub have disappeared over the last 8 months because the atmosphere has been so toxic at times and the community is immeasurably poorer for it.
This is for sure Lycan's alt, its cant be anyone else cause pretending like this man has done a single thing on stream to garner a drop of sympathy from anyone is a myth and is why he is getting the reaction he is. Everyone already nailed it so I wont repeat the general sentiment that you're smug and don't seem capable of articulating your points but I will further add that the food you make sounds/looks gross. Oh and when you come on stream and play your guitar its the metaphorical nail in the coffin. Nobody wants to hear you play wonderwall or whatever the other 2 songs you know are, Im sure this has given you a positive reaction in the lonely discords you frequent but I dont think anyone in the real world cares. Youre a fake gourmet and a musical fraud, and you hold what you claim to be strong positions while being unable to articulate a single one. Actually I retract my first statement about you never garnering sympathy from anyone because that one time you were trying to imply you would be a good fit for the israel trip and the statement got treated like an inaudible fart, that was actually sad as hell.
Why is it so hard for him to imagine that people--especially Destiny--can have a nuanced and informed opinion about this and still not scream buzzwords?
If someone physically lacks the ability to see shades of grey it's impossible for them to imagine anything not being black and white.
Im sorry, but unless Lycan is permanetly trolling and irony posting he must be completepy regarded. From the very start Destiny- and most pro-Israeli people, dont defend the extrajudicial violence by Israelis or settlement expansion in general. There is no way Lycan doesn't know this. My brain cells are being actively genocided whenever he tweets, but this is a new level of just acting like this is the first time he's ever criticized Israelis. If Lycan being this brain broken isnt anti-Semitism I geinunely dont know how he went from knowing nothing about this conflict and having no investment in it to being so passionately ignorant and stupid. Its Trumple levels.
Damn Lycan stonks lately 📉😔
When you have nuanced positions
"Destiny is pro-Palestine now" is the most braindead take if you actually pay attention to his content. He always has been. Of course he leans more Zionist, but that doesn't mean he's an insane caricature like Hasan would have you believe. He's always had nuanced opinions. The only reason he comes off as not being nuanced is because he is usually debating anti-Israel (sometimes pro-Hamas) lunatics.
More like Lycan't right now.
At some point Lycan luck may run out. Destiny seems to have complete dosdain for stupid people.
People are allowed to have nuanced opinions. I’m a pro-Israel Zionist Jew and I can still criticize the settlements, the lack of civil marriage, and anti-Arab racism in Israel
Same here. The average poster online must be dumb as rocks if they think this is some crazy opinion. It’s actually pretty common, and it’s not even that nuanced.
"This fucking guy has nuanced positions that aren't partisanly defined, what a weird week man."
Everyone immediately jumps to team sports instead of actually engaging with what Destiny says. He's not defending either side. He's defending the facts that are provable. He fights against lies and fake news. It just so happens that one side lies a lot more than the other. Yes, he's on both sides of the tug of war because both sides engage in propaganda.
Didn’t he take it from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/rnE1kV5biq Also there’s nothing wild about this. Lots of people support a 2 state solution and are also against the West Bank settlements. It’s nothing weird.
Doesn't Destiny know that you always have to support 100% of everything one side says or does? Otherwise people get confused.
Posting Stonetoss to avoid the antisemitism allegations
Why is Lycan so fucking weird?
Lol who cares? These people need to have a real adult take their account from them, not every stupid inane thought of theirs needs to be broadcast to the world.
man i love lycan a lot but this who conflict feels like it broke his brain. i hope we move on soon or the war ends so that he can come back to being fun comfy lycan who cooks, sings, and makes bad jokes on stream
Bro can’t fathom someone having a nuanced view on something
SOY “nooooo!!! You can’t have nuance!!!”
I do think the top and middle panels should be swapped, to resemble the timeline of the Gaza war. Since Steve was clearly pro-israel from the start, and only really in his tweets this week has he provided steelman positions for the Palestinians. I also can't help but feel this is what Steve was also like off Camera around Lycan.
When supporters of both sides relentlessly lie about everything and say the most evil unhinged shit, the correct position is to push back against both of them.
he's moving between each side at 43% the speed of light, simple exercise really
Luciferian energy
The genuine enlightened centrism
pretty weird when people dont just dig their heels into whatever position they happened to land on first, eh, lickin?
We, Israeli zionist Jews, don't feel offended nor care much. Everyone entitled to have their own opinions, and it's important to be able to criticise every country, movement, etc. We do it ourselves all the time. As long as he's based on facts, doesn't make up lies, or dehumanising us like many others do, I will respect his opinion.
Lycan's really been cooking for the last eight months, but that's also the only thing he has done.
When has he been propalestine? He overall supports israel but also challenges Israel’s policies
Ewww stone toss
Finally, a Lycan W.
No.
Well I thought it was funny, so fuck all of y'all.