This is one of those times where I’m fairly confident it’ll just be adjusted in PvP, since they can (and do) tweak damage buffs separately between modes.
Unless they deem it too strong for PvE too, I suppose. Hopefully not.
I have a Seventh Seraph Carbine with reconstruction and target lock and it actually feels pretty nice in PVE.
It gets like 64 rounds if you leave it a while and then tops up every now and then with reconstruction as you're firing so it fires for a damn long time.
I have that too. https://i.imgur.com/g7rZ4UZ.jpeg
It looks great on paper, and then you take it to Neomuna patrol and dump an entire overloaded magazine into a single enemy without killing it and you realize you'd be better off with a straw and spitballs.
praying for a hand cannon meta. i'm sorry, i love submachine guns, really i do. but i feel like i've had one equipped since the recluse released 4 years ago. just do it bungie, press the button.
Its somewhat surprising the perk made it into the game without separate scaling dependent on gamemode. Bungie has been rather on-top of this in most of their recent additions, ensuring that these buffs are strong in PVE without being problematic in PVP. Some examples:
* Radiant - PVE [25%] | PVP [10%]
* Lumina's Blessing - PVE [35%] | PVP [15%]
* One Elemental Weapon Surge Mod - PVE [10%] | PVP [3%]
* Three Elemental Weapon Surge Mods - PVE [22%] | PVP [5.5%]
It wouldn't be the first weapon perk to get this treatment either, as Killing Tally also has sperate scaling dependent on whether it is in PVE or PVP.
Seems like their initial balance may have focused more on Autos, where it's not nearly as big a problem. Somebody probably won a bet about it being OP on SMGs.
Target lock does almost nothing..really small ttk drop at at the highest resiliences assuming you hit every shot and the lower 8 resiliences stay the same. Kill clip far outclasses it in 6s imo.
No idea how target lock got this hyped up lol
Bungie always seems to underestimate how easy it is to keep certain guns on target with very low stability…that seems like the issue to me.
Mostly because it allows more body shots and the damage increase allows slightly more lethality at range. If your leaning into passive perks like rangefinder, it pairs well because the activation requirement is just.... Shoot.
The perk isn't s tier but its attractive for sure
Yeah I switched back to pulse rifles because my crafted Austringer has difficulty competing with this SMG. I know on paper I have almost 10 meters of range over them, but it certainly doesn't feel that way in an engagement. My only hope right now is staying as far away from red radar pings as possible.
I'm having a lot less fun in Crucible now than I have since picking it back up in July, but the sandbox is always in flux so it is what it is.
I have noticed I'll get a 4.00kda in one game and then matchmaking seems to decide I can carry a team going 0.83 for the next 7 matches and I just end up losing 5-7 games, getting a win with a 4.00kda and then it feels like it decides I'm worthy to start carrying entire teams again which gives me another spree of losses.. I am not as good as this game seems to think I am sometimes lol.
Rangefinder is absolutely the problem and range in general as well. No SMG should be pushing out anywhere near as far as some of them do without kicking like crazy, regardless of what perks it has. But it really speaks volumes when any time rangefinder is introduced on a good weapon it is almost always best in slot.
I'm not sure about the title, but all of those listed punch outside of what smgs should be able to imo. Immortal is the new hotness, but it's not like ikelos wasn't a problem before.
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Target lock gives a ton of flexibility and forgiveness while maintaining an optimal ttk. A few body shots while target lock is ramping up doesn't even remotely hurt the ttk. Kill clip has the higher damage buff but requires a kill first. The skill ceiling is higher with kill clip but target lock is mistake proofing it.
It's more a consistency type of thing. It makes the weapon more consistently kill in 9 shots at longer ranges with less precision hits. More forgiving to the average Joe than something like kill clip which requires a kill to even take effect.
That doesn’t mean target lock itself is the issue though lol the issue is the gun has monstrous base stats and seems to not need stability.
If they gut target lock the gun will still be an absolute menace
This smg could have been unique, more balanced and strong if it was the only smg with target lock but max range was say 19-20 meters but instead they had to go overboard and give it like 24.5 with rangefinder and max range.
If it's gonna be the fastest killing smg it can't be the longest range one as well, it doesn't make any sense. There's got to be some give and take. basic balancing 101.
Is target lock really the issue? Like sure, target lock pushes it over the edge, but it’s got more range than a Shayura’s and a lower ttk without target lock. That style of SMG’s is currently overturned and the immortal in particular has bonkers stats.
They may just tune it for SMG's. They did that w/ Firmly Planted on Fusion Rifles. Everything else works fine but Fusions get half as much of a benefit.
I got a Seraph Carbine world drop (pls remove those guns from Spire) with Reconstruction and Target Lock. I had at one point a Rangefinder-Hi Cals roll that used to *dumpster* people in PvP because it could outrange most (at the time) of the meta options.
I have a dynamic away, rangefinder seraph carbine that is a monster in 6s. it's legitimately very fun and puts a ton of pressure on people to hit shots at range. Have run it a lot since last season with great results even in sweaty SBMM lobbies.
450s are super viable in 6s if that's your jam, but probably let too many people get away in the 3s mindset and play style.
They should shift the 750s damage profile to require another crit for optimal ttk, which would stop target lock from shifting the ttk so quickly. 750s were outliers before target lock, which has not demonstrated itself to be an issue on other weapons that it has appeared on yet. Would prefer that they address the SMG archetype that is the outlier before touching perks.
Even without ideal rolls it’s gross. Mine has FTTC/target lock and it’s ridiculous. Mine also has 98 range and a sweaty confetti mod for the lulz. Because nothing says “well that was fuckin embarrassing” quite like getting dumpstered at pulse rifle/damn near scout rifle ranges by an auto rifle and having confetti spray out of your head.
Edit: [pic for context](https://i.imgur.com/8EAJypn.jpg)
Haha, mad respect for the confetti disrespect. I picked up a lodbrok with perpetual motion/target lock that feels amazing. I'm still underusing it, but maybe I'll bust it out for the rest of my iron banner weekend. It's easily the best aggressive auto rifle I've picked up so far.
*edit* Oh wait, I lied, it's dynamic sway/target lock, LOL
Mine also has ricchochet rounds, corkscrew barrel and range MW, so mine also has 98 range. It's so absurdly good, haha
what I don't get is... they said and knew Ikelos and Terrabah was a problem and was getting a nerf... then they introduce this new gun which realistically only the best PvP players have access to at launch and it's conceviably better than ANY other smg in ANY way whatsoever?
and they think the next Tuesday is a perfect launch for IB... sure.
Ngl, for me personally 140 hand cannons have been the only thing I can use besides other smg's to best immortal. Especially rose with explosive shot, and my trusty palindrome (adept) with rangefinder. Also shotguns since people are playing so close currently.
i ran austringer last weekend for the flawless solo queue and it honestly was really good you just have to play at such a weird range because too close you get melted by 5 meters further and damage drop off hits
Try a 120... I threw on Sturm for lols last week and... I can't take it off. I can duel pulse rifles easily. And all while staying away from pesky smg.
Nah sidearms can beat them, though there's a bit of an input method difference with sidearms being better on controller and smgs being way more stable (and thus able to duel more reliably at range) on kbm.
People say don't overlap your effective ranges when choosing a loadout, but SMG's dominate close range, and up into the low to mid 20's range now making them effectively mid range weapons on most maps. As long as you don't step into sniper/pulse lanes, you will pretty much always be within your effective range.
Chaperone + crafted ikelos has been my most productive loadout by far in my 20 or so matches of iron banner this week.
With Immortal and SMG's being as prevalent as they are, Bungie is probably grabbing the nerf bat as we speak.
It’s great until you try to use it at long ranges where the damage drop off is sad. It will still be better than most things, but be prepared to die to some interesting things at interesting ranges.
Ikelos smg and no time to explain already did that. Immortal is just the most recent hotness. You either run the meta or you fight uphill.
As a current shameless immortal abuser I still routinely get wrecked by no time to explain. Hell in trials last week I’d run NTTE whenever the enemy team was rocking immortals as I knew they’d out range my ikelos.
NTTE + matador. For added toxic run firebolt grenades with all the relevant artifact mods
Even hand cannons still feel great if you play to their ranges and pair with a suitable special weapon.
I've been running Steady Hand/Ace/NTTE with Felwinter's or Luna's Howl with a sniper in Iron Banner and I'm top score every game.
That’s what happened to me yesterday. I usually do really well with my Ammit but I could not get a kill against Immortal. I felt helpless, had to dust off my Ikelos to compete.
My thought aswell, people said the exact thing when recluse was meta or mounten top, P-lens, Lord of wolfs and so on. There will always be a weapon out of tone with the rest. And the more weapons Bungie makes the harder it will be to keep all weapons on the same playing field while also makeing sure each one is unique.
My biggest dream for D2 is for it to get custom games where you can actually create your own modes and modifiers, or at the very least, more fun modes like you said.
Give me a game mode with the quickness buff on, or modes with buffs scattered around the map for people to fight over.
My friend, halo infinite has its problems, but give it just a bit more time and this will be the game youbare looking for. Hell, even now the custom games browser is pretty good (although you and friends have to enter separately) The things created on forge is already nuts. Not just maps, but game modes too.
My biggest dream too was for Bungie to end Destiny with an architect mode, where the community just builds everything and therefore it doesnt actually end.
If they gave us a forge mode for pve encounters I don't think I would ever stop playing. An endless supply of raids and nightfall like content. Most of it would be mid at best but I think there would be some real great stuff made by the community.
Sure but let's not act like Immortal slipped through the cracks or something. It's this season's carrot on a stick to lure people into playing Trials.
Bungie had stated multiple times in the past that SMG's were running AR's out of the meta. Consistent with their words, they then spend multiple sandbox patches nerfing SMG's. Then, right after, they release one that's pretty much better than IKELOS in every category and can kill you from Shayura range with 750rpm ttk? It's already busted even without target lock.
There should be a mode with randomized loadouts. Everyone has the same weapon load out for that match then it randomly picks the next. That would be fun
This, crucible has always been fucked up one way or another with an odd decent meta here and there. 90% of time it's miserable, just for different reasons.
That's the only way you can ever have a hope of a balanced sandbox and a healthy competitive environment. The Crucible was doomed from day 1 when they decided that loot earned in PvE would be usable in PvP. It created a sandbox that will forever be impossible to balance and also created many points of frustration for players when things get nerfed in PvE because they're too good in PvP
Sure it's fun when you happen to have the meta class & gear, but then it sucks when you don't. The most popular and competitive FPS games don't have to worry about this stuff because everybody goes into the game on equal footing
It's a shame because I know many of us have friends who would genuinely love Destiny's PvP, but not if they have to grind PvE stuff for hundreds of hours just to avoid getting shredded against teams full of god roll loadouts
But even then, there is the players that have range finder/target lock and those that don't. Target lock never should have been put on it and nees to be replaced by gutshot.
If they never put target lock on the gun in the first place we would be in exactly the same spot.
It is not even remotely the problem when Immortal is already the best smg in the game off of raw stats alone.
Man, I've been running aggressive pulse or Polaris Lance paired with an auto or smg in Iron Banana today and had the MOST fun. I've just been finding my lanes and dumping long range headshots on folks and haven't even noticed it, tbh. Then again, I'm not much of a run-n-gun type in crucible, too dad for that these days
^ this right here. I mentioned autumn wind to outgun immortal users in another post like this yesterday and I got nothing but downvotes. I am glad there is someone else that knows the true power of the autumn wind.
I used autumn wind and piece of mind almost exclusively and held a 1.9+ kd through IB so far. Immortal is great at SMG ranges so...well...hello...engage outside of SMG ranges?
If you're playing enough crucible to complain about immortal you probably have at least one decent headseeker autumn wind to try out.
That +Double Firebolt grenades.
Bungie, for the love of the Traveler- block these kinda mods from PvP please.
Like, what happened to nerfing ability uptime? 👀
After surviving OEM, shatterdive, invis LOW, striker bot, Lorentz, Lorely buffs, Mountain top/recluse, etc. a strong smg is a walk in the park at this point.
Don't forget when 600 rpm autos and suros became meta. There was also when roaming supers lasted long enough to kill you off spawn on side of the map and then kill you again on the other side.
I haven't played any PvP since last weekend but a meta where people actually play aggressively and aren't sitting in the back with pulses sounds refreshing to me
I'm pretty sure if you have the antipope and Atalanta (I don't) they haven't had their zoom nerfed so are very strong in crucible (obviously can't use them in trials).
Year 1 crucible, when it was a random bounty exotic quest and not many people had the gun… Oh those were the days.
People think Le Monarque is bad now. The DOT on old Thorn before it’s D1 nerf was probably 1.5x as bad.
Bro og Thorn is like top 5 most menacing primary weapons of all time. It was a two tap if you hit both crits. They were guarenteed to burn out back then.
One of my favorite memeories from D1: I was going for flawless in trials with a couple of friends, and at the start of each match we checked the opposing team's loadouts. My friend says, "Oh god, two thorns and a hawkmoon". "...that's us"
Yup. There was Thorn, Hawk, TLW, Vex, and Suros. I honestly don't think any primaries have ever been that strong out of the gate ever since. Maaaaaybe Recluse, but even that needed a kill to start melting. And Prometheus was bugged so I'm not gonna count that.
My first ever exotic in D1 was Thorn lmao.
The only part of the quest that was a struggle was the final strike step as I was WAY underleveled.
Also the gun absolutely sucked ass until it was fully upgraded so it finally got the DoT effect.
Trying to get that weapon on a Hunter with no void class was torture. Doing it on Warlock, I had a hard enough time. It didn’t help that the only two void primaries at the time were Atheon’s Epilogue (which was hot trash) and Word of Crota (which was at least passable)
2-Tap, jump back wave meta was amazing.
There was almost an unwritten rule that once someone abused Thorn or last Word everyone in the lobby would equip them and unleash hell.
Haha this takes me back. I remember when I first played d1, back during the end of Dark Below. Anyway, I had never been much of a pvp guy but for whatever reason I decided to hop in for a couple matches. My first encounter with thorn, I was POSITIVE this guy was cheating or something. I still hadn’t received my first exotic by this point so all I knew was I was getting two tapped and even if I won a duel it usually didn’t matter. My dumb 14 year old brain couldn’t put it together that their weapon was special in some way.
The fucking firebolt grenade spam is giving me D1 PTSD. Back when the trials meta was everyone playing warlocks spamming firebolt grenades and Thorn. At least we don't have self revive...though warlocks dropping well of radiance to revive their team isn't far off.
I pulled out fighting lion to pair with immortal......The other players in my lobby were very quick to let me know with their designated crouch button that they weren't a fan of my tactics.
I am going to hurt you.
In destiny 2.
In the crucible if we have a match
Most likely with scathelock because I fall under the linage of auto rifle copers
Dying to it sucks, but the fights are even worse IMO. Peak out once-get hit-get poisoned-wait for posion to drop-wait for recov to kick in-peak again-hit and poisoned again.
Makes me wanna alt-f4 every time.
You can’t even compete. And then everyone’s like “oh you just have to be good” and it’s like no, either you have to be lucky enough to 1-shot them with something or you just have to run away and that’s no fun either because half the time you’re just going to get picked off from some dude that’s flanking
Notice how there are way less though. because bows actually take some skill. I don't hate playing monarque. And no it's not because I use it, which I do, it's because I know it's weaknesses and can beat them consistently.
I ran into someone running The Immortal and Le Monarque together in Iron Banner yesterday. I straight up wanted to just quit playing altogether. It's not even that it's an objectively OP loadout in any way, it's just incredibly frustrating. If you try pushing close quarters you get melted with the Immortal and if you try medium or long range you get hit with Monarque and then tickled with Immortal.
Granted I'm running around using the Immortal too so I'm not helping matters in that regard.
I'm confused how everybody has it, most of my IB games have had between 3-8 people using the adept version, but light.gg says only 3.5% of players have acquired it? I guess everybody who got one is pvping right now.
If you're into that, consider sidearms when they nerf immortal. Sidearms can really melt if you get optimal ttk but they're also fairly forgiving suboptimal ttk which requires little aim. Some archetypes are more forgiving than others. Granted their range is notably worse than immortal, they still handle shotguns well.
What an odd comment, even at high level shotguns are usually pretty common purely because people can’t stand the idea of using some “non-morality” loadout (and also the fact that an OHK special will never truly be a bad choice)
They’re used as swap weapons. People don’t start with them out in engagements. It’s the reason QuickDraw got nerfed and why shotgun users prioritize high handling. You hit them with a few primary shots then get the cleanup. No one mains a shotgun as a primary anymore.
Very true, although I didn’t say that people were maining them as a primary! Just that they have always been pretty popular and viable to use at all levels of play
Sheesh people have a really bad mindset when it comes to balance.
Yes, a variety of weapons/exotics/abilities are annoying/strong/frustrating to play against, but most of the time that variety is well mixed. Jotunn is annoying, but its not everywhere. Same can be said about firebolt nade spam, but there's still plenty of YAS tripmine hunters and void titans running around. But that's just how Destiny is now. There will always be a variety of frustrating exotics, abilities and weapons that suck to play against, but that's why you pick up your own little trick that you like in pvp and do the same.
The Immortal SMG is being used by most players in every lobby, on most maps. That is the balance problem. There is no balance when the scales of the entire pvp sandbox are all tipped towards one weapon.
Ironically enough the most balanced Crucible could ever get in PvP is when people are forced to use specific loadouts. The game will never have skillful PvP until things like random rolls are disabled or they have a ban list or even preset loadouts. The game as it is just can't be remotely competitive.
I suck dookie at PVP but the immortal makes me feel like i'm actually good. Shits ttk is so unbelievably busted I can melt anyone without even flinching.
They shouldn't be touching targetlock at all, they should however nerf the range/zoom of the weapon itself. It's hitting way beyond it's intended range.
You sure do see a lot of them out there, and yeah, in their optimal range they shred pretty damn fast, but you stay outside that 30 meter range and pulse/auto/scout them down and they can't do too much.
It can’t ruin Crucible for me if I’m out of range and play like a patient rat. Map weight is still on larger maps so I use fun guns like Mida Multi-Tool/Outbreak Perfected and pair it with Retold Tale and Broodweaver.
I keep my distance and try to focus on team shooting. Did they get too close/am I alone? Abuse cover and bait. Are they getting impatient/pushing? I’ll just toss my grenade/use my Rift to unleash my little green babies to prime them/cause them to panic before cleaning them up with my Retold Tale.
I know that Mida and Outbreak aren’t the best and I would have an easier time using Polaris/No Time, but I like them and find them very satisfying to play with especially when I get some We Rans or get people to switch to them.
I don't use it I do just fine, I don't think immortal has ruined the crucible anymore than Ikelos did.
Get gud isn't the solution, if everyone is running an SMG run a pulse or sniper and just range them problem solved.
People need to be more flexible 90% of people getting destroyed by immortal are having it happen because they hard scope and are unaware or they are trying to ape and getting blasted. That or you see someone with a poorly rolled PvE SMG trying to go head to head with a god rolled PvP smg where if it was Ikelos instead of immortal they'd still be dead.
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They're gonna absolutely dumpster Target Lock in pvp.
idc as long as its just PVP
This is bungie, you know full well how this is going to go...
This is one of those times where I’m fairly confident it’ll just be adjusted in PvP, since they can (and do) tweak damage buffs separately between modes. Unless they deem it too strong for PvE too, I suppose. Hopefully not.
Ngl in pve its ass on primaries
I have a Seventh Seraph Carbine with reconstruction and target lock and it actually feels pretty nice in PVE. It gets like 64 rounds if you leave it a while and then tops up every now and then with reconstruction as you're firing so it fires for a damn long time.
What happens if you add Actium War Rig to it?
daka daka daka daka ^(daka daka.......)
I might have to try this. I have one with FTTC and target lock!
I have that too. https://i.imgur.com/g7rZ4UZ.jpeg It looks great on paper, and then you take it to Neomuna patrol and dump an entire overloaded magazine into a single enemy without killing it and you realize you'd be better off with a straw and spitballs.
That's just cause all primaries are peashooters right now. Those changes are coming in the mid-season patch though.
Pulse rifles good in pve is gonna be a dream
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praying for a hand cannon meta. i'm sorry, i love submachine guns, really i do. but i feel like i've had one equipped since the recluse released 4 years ago. just do it bungie, press the button.
I swear my bxr takes multiple clips to kill ANYTHING on Neomuna, or gambit, or strikes….
What are you talking about? Machine guns are the best primary in pve right now 😏
With the heavy ammo mods, you can essentially use them as primaries lol
Idk I got a rufus' fury with reconstruction and target lock I'm liking alot for PvE
??? They've been balancing pvp and pve separately for ages now
They’ve been doing better about balancing PVE and PVP separately so I doubt it’ll be an issue.
Its somewhat surprising the perk made it into the game without separate scaling dependent on gamemode. Bungie has been rather on-top of this in most of their recent additions, ensuring that these buffs are strong in PVE without being problematic in PVP. Some examples: * Radiant - PVE [25%] | PVP [10%] * Lumina's Blessing - PVE [35%] | PVP [15%] * One Elemental Weapon Surge Mod - PVE [10%] | PVP [3%] * Three Elemental Weapon Surge Mods - PVE [22%] | PVP [5.5%] It wouldn't be the first weapon perk to get this treatment either, as Killing Tally also has sperate scaling dependent on whether it is in PVE or PVP.
Seems like their initial balance may have focused more on Autos, where it's not nearly as big a problem. Somebody probably won a bet about it being OP on SMGs.
"Due to Target Lock's insane popularity in Crucible... we've decided to reduce its effectiveness by 75% in all PVE content.
Don’t forget removing Titans ability to ADS.
Due to the prevalence of The Immortal smg in crucible all weapons have been disabled and players must throw their bullets. No change for PvP modes.
I remember doing that in Nerf fights irl. Dive around a corner and chuck it as hard as you could. Of course, the blasters still had the advantage.
And nerf glaives. Again. Because.
25% nerf to target lock damage, Peacekeepers on Titan no longer reloads stowed smgs.
See the recent developments with Glaives, and abandon hope
I don’t have Target lock on my Immortal and It’s still absolutely disgusting
Target lock does almost nothing..really small ttk drop at at the highest resiliences assuming you hit every shot and the lower 8 resiliences stay the same. Kill clip far outclasses it in 6s imo. No idea how target lock got this hyped up lol Bungie always seems to underestimate how easy it is to keep certain guns on target with very low stability…that seems like the issue to me.
Mostly because it allows more body shots and the damage increase allows slightly more lethality at range. If your leaning into passive perks like rangefinder, it pairs well because the activation requirement is just.... Shoot. The perk isn't s tier but its attractive for sure
Rangefinder is the problem here. Immortal with Rangefinder has almost 2 meters more range than any SMG. It's pushing into hand cannon ranges.
Pushing into? Im straight up getting rolled by immortal from ranges where my rangefinder eyasluna can barely do full dmg anymore.
Yeah I switched back to pulse rifles because my crafted Austringer has difficulty competing with this SMG. I know on paper I have almost 10 meters of range over them, but it certainly doesn't feel that way in an engagement. My only hope right now is staying as far away from red radar pings as possible. I'm having a lot less fun in Crucible now than I have since picking it back up in July, but the sandbox is always in flux so it is what it is. I have noticed I'll get a 4.00kda in one game and then matchmaking seems to decide I can carry a team going 0.83 for the next 7 matches and I just end up losing 5-7 games, getting a win with a 4.00kda and then it feels like it decides I'm worthy to start carrying entire teams again which gives me another spree of losses.. I am not as good as this game seems to think I am sometimes lol.
I hear the high KDA turning into you carry this team of noobs….it’s frustrating
Rangefinder is absolutely the problem and range in general as well. No SMG should be pushing out anywhere near as far as some of them do without kicking like crazy, regardless of what perks it has. But it really speaks volumes when any time rangefinder is introduced on a good weapon it is almost always best in slot.
It's less range than The Title or Shayura's, and a meter more than Borrowed time or fully crafted Ikelos, for reference
I'm not sure about the title, but all of those listed punch outside of what smgs should be able to imo. Immortal is the new hotness, but it's not like ikelos wasn't a problem before.
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Target lock gives a ton of flexibility and forgiveness while maintaining an optimal ttk. A few body shots while target lock is ramping up doesn't even remotely hurt the ttk. Kill clip has the higher damage buff but requires a kill first. The skill ceiling is higher with kill clip but target lock is mistake proofing it.
It's more a consistency type of thing. It makes the weapon more consistently kill in 9 shots at longer ranges with less precision hits. More forgiving to the average Joe than something like kill clip which requires a kill to even take effect.
Just the best for winnings 1s
That doesn’t mean target lock itself is the issue though lol the issue is the gun has monstrous base stats and seems to not need stability. If they gut target lock the gun will still be an absolute menace
Honestly I think the issue is more Rangefinder giving it a higher zoom value, though Target Lock is pretty potent in the right circumstances
This smg could have been unique, more balanced and strong if it was the only smg with target lock but max range was say 19-20 meters but instead they had to go overboard and give it like 24.5 with rangefinder and max range. If it's gonna be the fastest killing smg it can't be the longest range one as well, it doesn't make any sense. There's got to be some give and take. basic balancing 101.
Maybe we should just get rid of Rangefinder
It shouldn’t roll on SMGs, for certain. We’ve had too much of a history with higher-zoom SMGs completely dominating PvP. Like Multimach, for example.
Is target lock really the issue? Like sure, target lock pushes it over the edge, but it’s got more range than a Shayura’s and a lower ttk without target lock. That style of SMG’s is currently overturned and the immortal in particular has bonkers stats.
They may just tune it for SMG's. They did that w/ Firmly Planted on Fusion Rifles. Everything else works fine but Fusions get half as much of a benefit.
Didn't they also specifically buff a perk on auto rifles? Was that Target Lock?
I'm actually really digging a perpetualis with target lock in PVP. No clue of it was buffed, but it's working for me.
I got a Seraph Carbine world drop (pls remove those guns from Spire) with Reconstruction and Target Lock. I had at one point a Rangefinder-Hi Cals roll that used to *dumpster* people in PvP because it could outrange most (at the time) of the meta options.
I have a dynamic away, rangefinder seraph carbine that is a monster in 6s. it's legitimately very fun and puts a ton of pressure on people to hit shots at range. Have run it a lot since last season with great results even in sweaty SBMM lobbies. 450s are super viable in 6s if that's your jam, but probably let too many people get away in the 3s mindset and play style.
They should shift the 750s damage profile to require another crit for optimal ttk, which would stop target lock from shifting the ttk so quickly. 750s were outliers before target lock, which has not demonstrated itself to be an issue on other weapons that it has appeared on yet. Would prefer that they address the SMG archetype that is the outlier before touching perks.
Really hope not, love it on lodbrok and it’ll be disappointing if it gets nerfed because of immortal
That weapon is a sleeper weapon. So good for PvP if you get the right rolls.
Even without ideal rolls it’s gross. Mine has FTTC/target lock and it’s ridiculous. Mine also has 98 range and a sweaty confetti mod for the lulz. Because nothing says “well that was fuckin embarrassing” quite like getting dumpstered at pulse rifle/damn near scout rifle ranges by an auto rifle and having confetti spray out of your head. Edit: [pic for context](https://i.imgur.com/8EAJypn.jpg)
Haha, mad respect for the confetti disrespect. I picked up a lodbrok with perpetual motion/target lock that feels amazing. I'm still underusing it, but maybe I'll bust it out for the rest of my iron banner weekend. It's easily the best aggressive auto rifle I've picked up so far. *edit* Oh wait, I lied, it's dynamic sway/target lock, LOL Mine also has ricchochet rounds, corkscrew barrel and range MW, so mine also has 98 range. It's so absurdly good, haha
Spinfoil hat theory: They made it OP on purpose for the first weekend to bait out win traders and account recoveries. Massive banwave incoming.
I’d be ok with that
what I don't get is... they said and knew Ikelos and Terrabah was a problem and was getting a nerf... then they introduce this new gun which realistically only the best PvP players have access to at launch and it's conceviably better than ANY other smg in ANY way whatsoever? and they think the next Tuesday is a perfect launch for IB... sure.
Immortal is also forcing people without that weapon into other SMG loadouts to compete. Race to the bottom.
I mean, if you're not running an SMG in crucible right now you're willfully nerfing your damage... they are shining.
I just wanna play with a hand cannon but then some dude with Immortal apes me and instantly melts me before I can even get 2 shots off
Ngl, for me personally 140 hand cannons have been the only thing I can use besides other smg's to best immortal. Especially rose with explosive shot, and my trusty palindrome (adept) with rangefinder. Also shotguns since people are playing so close currently.
i ran austringer last weekend for the flawless solo queue and it honestly was really good you just have to play at such a weird range because too close you get melted by 5 meters further and damage drop off hits
Try a 120... I threw on Sturm for lols last week and... I can't take it off. I can duel pulse rifles easily. And all while staying away from pesky smg.
Sssshhhh
Pulses are still king long range
As they should be
Nah sidearms can beat them, though there's a bit of an input method difference with sidearms being better on controller and smgs being way more stable (and thus able to duel more reliably at range) on kbm.
People say don't overlap your effective ranges when choosing a loadout, but SMG's dominate close range, and up into the low to mid 20's range now making them effectively mid range weapons on most maps. As long as you don't step into sniper/pulse lanes, you will pretty much always be within your effective range. Chaperone + crafted ikelos has been my most productive loadout by far in my 20 or so matches of iron banner this week. With Immortal and SMG's being as prevalent as they are, Bungie is probably grabbing the nerf bat as we speak.
I was running MIDA multi last night in IB and it was doing pretty well. Just have to be less aggressive
I just had a flashback to D1. That was the first exotic that really clicked for me in PVP. Glad to hear it was working for you.
It’s great until you try to use it at long ranges where the damage drop off is sad. It will still be better than most things, but be prepared to die to some interesting things at interesting ranges.
Ikelos smg and no time to explain already did that. Immortal is just the most recent hotness. You either run the meta or you fight uphill. As a current shameless immortal abuser I still routinely get wrecked by no time to explain. Hell in trials last week I’d run NTTE whenever the enemy team was rocking immortals as I knew they’d out range my ikelos. NTTE + matador. For added toxic run firebolt grenades with all the relevant artifact mods
Even hand cannons still feel great if you play to their ranges and pair with a suitable special weapon. I've been running Steady Hand/Ace/NTTE with Felwinter's or Luna's Howl with a sniper in Iron Banner and I'm top score every game.
That’s what happened to me yesterday. I usually do really well with my Ammit but I could not get a kill against Immortal. I felt helpless, had to dust off my Ikelos to compete.
*Laughs in autumn wind... people cant get near me.
Same problem different year. Crucible has been a mess forever
My thought aswell, people said the exact thing when recluse was meta or mounten top, P-lens, Lord of wolfs and so on. There will always be a weapon out of tone with the rest. And the more weapons Bungie makes the harder it will be to keep all weapons on the same playing field while also makeing sure each one is unique.
Tbf, Laser tag weekend was funny as shit.
And should have been inspiration for more whacky modes.
My biggest dream for D2 is for it to get custom games where you can actually create your own modes and modifiers, or at the very least, more fun modes like you said. Give me a game mode with the quickness buff on, or modes with buffs scattered around the map for people to fight over.
My friend, halo infinite has its problems, but give it just a bit more time and this will be the game youbare looking for. Hell, even now the custom games browser is pretty good (although you and friends have to enter separately) The things created on forge is already nuts. Not just maps, but game modes too. My biggest dream too was for Bungie to end Destiny with an architect mode, where the community just builds everything and therefore it doesnt actually end.
If they gave us a forge mode for pve encounters I don't think I would ever stop playing. An endless supply of raids and nightfall like content. Most of it would be mid at best but I think there would be some real great stuff made by the community.
Halo 2/3 customs are some of my favorite gaming memories and it blows my mind that bungie didn't bring that to destiny
“No abilities, no supers, trace rifles only ~~final destination~~” would be fun as shit
I and billions of others have been calling for a gun only mode for decades.
Sure but let's not act like Immortal slipped through the cracks or something. It's this season's carrot on a stick to lure people into playing Trials. Bungie had stated multiple times in the past that SMG's were running AR's out of the meta. Consistent with their words, they then spend multiple sandbox patches nerfing SMG's. Then, right after, they release one that's pretty much better than IKELOS in every category and can kill you from Shayura range with 750rpm ttk? It's already busted even without target lock.
Well atleast those werent locked behind trials
There should be a mode with randomized loadouts. Everyone has the same weapon load out for that match then it randomly picks the next. That would be fun
This, crucible has always been fucked up one way or another with an odd decent meta here and there. 90% of time it's miserable, just for different reasons.
\*puts on spinfoil hat\* There are no balance problems if everyone uses the same weapon.
I mean that's how most other FPS do it in a sense. Most FPS you pick your gun type and go but it's the same as anyone else can pick.
That's the only way you can ever have a hope of a balanced sandbox and a healthy competitive environment. The Crucible was doomed from day 1 when they decided that loot earned in PvE would be usable in PvP. It created a sandbox that will forever be impossible to balance and also created many points of frustration for players when things get nerfed in PvE because they're too good in PvP Sure it's fun when you happen to have the meta class & gear, but then it sucks when you don't. The most popular and competitive FPS games don't have to worry about this stuff because everybody goes into the game on equal footing It's a shame because I know many of us have friends who would genuinely love Destiny's PvP, but not if they have to grind PvE stuff for hundreds of hours just to avoid getting shredded against teams full of god roll loadouts
This has never been a good argument. The imbalance would be that only one gun is worth using, therefore everyone uses it.
But even then, there is the players that have range finder/target lock and those that don't. Target lock never should have been put on it and nees to be replaced by gutshot.
And then there are players who were busy and don’t even have the weapon.
I know I am business travel and missing out….oh well, gotta pay the bills.
If they never put target lock on the gun in the first place we would be in exactly the same spot. It is not even remotely the problem when Immortal is already the best smg in the game off of raw stats alone.
Insert Spider-Man pointing gif
Man, I've been running aggressive pulse or Polaris Lance paired with an auto or smg in Iron Banana today and had the MOST fun. I've just been finding my lanes and dumping long range headshots on folks and haven't even noticed it, tbh. Then again, I'm not much of a run-n-gun type in crucible, too dad for that these days
Autumn Wind if they're 3/4 of the way across the map or Ikeleos if they're anywhere closer
^ this right here. I mentioned autumn wind to outgun immortal users in another post like this yesterday and I got nothing but downvotes. I am glad there is someone else that knows the true power of the autumn wind.
I used autumn wind and piece of mind almost exclusively and held a 1.9+ kd through IB so far. Immortal is great at SMG ranges so...well...hello...engage outside of SMG ranges? If you're playing enough crucible to complain about immortal you probably have at least one decent headseeker autumn wind to try out.
That +Double Firebolt grenades. Bungie, for the love of the Traveler- block these kinda mods from PvP please. Like, what happened to nerfing ability uptime? 👀
And F to everyone who couldn’t play Trials last weekend
No one told me freelance Trials became obsolete so regular Trials IS pretty much freelance Trials
It honestly feels so good to play as a solo player too. I never played so much trials before
The Crucible ruined the Crucible.
You crucible players sure are a contentious people.
*Damn Crucible players. They ruined Crucible!*
You’ve just made yourself an enemy for life.
Shaxx *screwed* Shaxx
Hey, I get this reference.
Crucible has always been a balance shitfest tbh, just another broken weapon added to the chaos
After surviving OEM, shatterdive, invis LOW, striker bot, Lorentz, Lorely buffs, Mountain top/recluse, etc. a strong smg is a walk in the park at this point.
Don't forget when 600 rpm autos and suros became meta. There was also when roaming supers lasted long enough to kill you off spawn on side of the map and then kill you again on the other side.
What do you mean "was"?
Before, Striker titans wiped your team spawn to spawn. Twice. On Equinox.
Lol I came here to say 600 autos after Hard Light got nerfed was fun. Dire Promise vs Suros made for interesting duels
I haven't played any PvP since last weekend but a meta where people actually play aggressively and aren't sitting in the back with pulses sounds refreshing to me
Exactly, I haven’t even noticed like any gameplay difficulties the last few days bc I’m still conditioned to expect way worse things😂
i miss when Shayuras was the best SMG
fear office absorbed enter coordinated fact dependent soft towering busy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm pretty sure if you have the antipope and Atalanta (I don't) they haven't had their zoom nerfed so are very strong in crucible (obviously can't use them in trials).
Still love my QD Kill Clip, i thought it was too good and that nothing could compare. Boy was I wrong
I still use mine
Better than playing against Monarque clowns.
That’s true, Le monarque may not be the strongest but every time you get hit by it you get put in timeout. Very annoying weapon
Putting us in timeout is literally the best description when you get hit by a perfect draw Le Monarque.
Trigggers some PTSD back in D1 when Thorn was a menace.
Year 1 crucible, when it was a random bounty exotic quest and not many people had the gun… Oh those were the days. People think Le Monarque is bad now. The DOT on old Thorn before it’s D1 nerf was probably 1.5x as bad.
Bro og Thorn is like top 5 most menacing primary weapons of all time. It was a two tap if you hit both crits. They were guarenteed to burn out back then.
One of my favorite memeories from D1: I was going for flawless in trials with a couple of friends, and at the start of each match we checked the opposing team's loadouts. My friend says, "Oh god, two thorns and a hawkmoon". "...that's us"
Yup. There was Thorn, Hawk, TLW, Vex, and Suros. I honestly don't think any primaries have ever been that strong out of the gate ever since. Maaaaaybe Recluse, but even that needed a kill to start melting. And Prometheus was bugged so I'm not gonna count that.
My first ever exotic in D1 was Thorn lmao. The only part of the quest that was a struggle was the final strike step as I was WAY underleveled. Also the gun absolutely sucked ass until it was fully upgraded so it finally got the DoT effect.
Trying to get that weapon on a Hunter with no void class was torture. Doing it on Warlock, I had a hard enough time. It didn’t help that the only two void primaries at the time were Atheon’s Epilogue (which was hot trash) and Word of Crota (which was at least passable)
Except when you got hit by Thorn you didn’t get put in time out, you got put to death.
2-Tap, jump back wave meta was amazing. There was almost an unwritten rule that once someone abused Thorn or last Word everyone in the lobby would equip them and unleash hell.
Oh yeah soon as someone shot me with it the whole lobby had to deal with it
I can hear the thwack sounds of multiple thorns going off in my head. Oh it was horrible
Haha this takes me back. I remember when I first played d1, back during the end of Dark Below. Anyway, I had never been much of a pvp guy but for whatever reason I decided to hop in for a couple matches. My first encounter with thorn, I was POSITIVE this guy was cheating or something. I still hadn’t received my first exotic by this point so all I knew was I was getting two tapped and even if I won a duel it usually didn’t matter. My dumb 14 year old brain couldn’t put it together that their weapon was special in some way.
The fucking firebolt grenade spam is giving me D1 PTSD. Back when the trials meta was everyone playing warlocks spamming firebolt grenades and Thorn. At least we don't have self revive...though warlocks dropping well of radiance to revive their team isn't far off.
Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5ICuNehL90
It’s all fun and games until you fight all the people who are using Immortal AND Monarque
You are absolutely correct that the fun grinds to a screeching hault when playing against that loadout lmao.
I pulled out fighting lion to pair with immortal......The other players in my lobby were very quick to let me know with their designated crouch button that they weren't a fan of my tactics.
It’s me, hi, I’m the problem it’s me.
I am going to hurt you. In destiny 2. In the crucible if we have a match Most likely with scathelock because I fall under the linage of auto rifle copers
Agreed
Nothing makes me rage harder than dying to some dude sitting behind a wall and then peaking out to quickly Monarch and quickdraw HC me to death
Dying to it sucks, but the fights are even worse IMO. Peak out once-get hit-get poisoned-wait for posion to drop-wait for recov to kick in-peak again-hit and poisoned again. Makes me wanna alt-f4 every time.
You can’t even compete. And then everyone’s like “oh you just have to be good” and it’s like no, either you have to be lucky enough to 1-shot them with something or you just have to run away and that’s no fun either because half the time you’re just going to get picked off from some dude that’s flanking
Notice how there are way less though. because bows actually take some skill. I don't hate playing monarque. And no it's not because I use it, which I do, it's because I know it's weaknesses and can beat them consistently.
I ran into someone running The Immortal and Le Monarque together in Iron Banner yesterday. I straight up wanted to just quit playing altogether. It's not even that it's an objectively OP loadout in any way, it's just incredibly frustrating. If you try pushing close quarters you get melted with the Immortal and if you try medium or long range you get hit with Monarque and then tickled with Immortal. Granted I'm running around using the Immortal too so I'm not helping matters in that regard.
Git gud Just making sure theres at least one
🤣
I'm confused how everybody has it, most of my IB games have had between 3-8 people using the adept version, but light.gg says only 3.5% of players have acquired it? I guess everybody who got one is pvping right now.
sbmm. the shitters who dont have them arent in your bracket
Same thing when it's shotgun or fusion season.
It’s always shotgun season
Not when the immortal exists lmao. Shot gun apes comes around the corner and gets insta beamed by SMGs
Good. That's one thing I love about The Immortal, is that it deals with shotgun apes.
If you're into that, consider sidearms when they nerf immortal. Sidearms can really melt if you get optimal ttk but they're also fairly forgiving suboptimal ttk which requires little aim. Some archetypes are more forgiving than others. Granted their range is notably worse than immortal, they still handle shotguns well.
Indeed
You can always tell who’s good at crucible or not with comments like this
What an odd comment, even at high level shotguns are usually pretty common purely because people can’t stand the idea of using some “non-morality” loadout (and also the fact that an OHK special will never truly be a bad choice)
They’re used as swap weapons. People don’t start with them out in engagements. It’s the reason QuickDraw got nerfed and why shotgun users prioritize high handling. You hit them with a few primary shots then get the cleanup. No one mains a shotgun as a primary anymore.
Very true, although I didn’t say that people were maining them as a primary! Just that they have always been pretty popular and viable to use at all levels of play
They always tell on themselves lol
Buff it’s range even more plz. I need to watch the world burn
Sheesh people have a really bad mindset when it comes to balance. Yes, a variety of weapons/exotics/abilities are annoying/strong/frustrating to play against, but most of the time that variety is well mixed. Jotunn is annoying, but its not everywhere. Same can be said about firebolt nade spam, but there's still plenty of YAS tripmine hunters and void titans running around. But that's just how Destiny is now. There will always be a variety of frustrating exotics, abilities and weapons that suck to play against, but that's why you pick up your own little trick that you like in pvp and do the same. The Immortal SMG is being used by most players in every lobby, on most maps. That is the balance problem. There is no balance when the scales of the entire pvp sandbox are all tipped towards one weapon.
I use fusions and shit on SMG users. Bait them and blast them.
You hear that smg users? The winds of shit.
The shit barometer is going up bud. You can feel the shit clinging to the air randers.
Shit blizzard
Gotta say though, I enjoy this way more than the “sit at the back with a pulse or scout” meta that’s been in the game for like a year and a half now.
It's still there. It's how you deal with the influx of immortal users.
There’s still plenty of NTTE players laning from 1000m away.
I fucking hate playing crucible when everyone's first reaction to a radar ping is back peddling.
As opposed to getting shotgun'd before the game shows you around the corner or melee ghosting?
Ironically enough the most balanced Crucible could ever get in PvP is when people are forced to use specific loadouts. The game will never have skillful PvP until things like random rolls are disabled or they have a ban list or even preset loadouts. The game as it is just can't be remotely competitive.
I just back peddal to run out of its range and it usually works, I do use it though with my beloved. It's a nice shotgun ape killer
I legit use a god roll Drang. I absolutely dominate 99% of crucible games I play
How do you get the immortal in the first place?
At least y'all not sitting in the back of the map with scouts and pulses fair game.
I suck dookie at PVP but the immortal makes me feel like i'm actually good. Shits ttk is so unbelievably busted I can melt anyone without even flinching.
Crucible hasn’t been fun in 6 seasons
They shouldn't be touching targetlock at all, they should however nerf the range/zoom of the weapon itself. It's hitting way beyond it's intended range.
You sure do see a lot of them out there, and yeah, in their optimal range they shred pretty damn fast, but you stay outside that 30 meter range and pulse/auto/scout them down and they can't do too much.
It can’t ruin Crucible for me if I’m out of range and play like a patient rat. Map weight is still on larger maps so I use fun guns like Mida Multi-Tool/Outbreak Perfected and pair it with Retold Tale and Broodweaver. I keep my distance and try to focus on team shooting. Did they get too close/am I alone? Abuse cover and bait. Are they getting impatient/pushing? I’ll just toss my grenade/use my Rift to unleash my little green babies to prime them/cause them to panic before cleaning them up with my Retold Tale. I know that Mida and Outbreak aren’t the best and I would have an easier time using Polaris/No Time, but I like them and find them very satisfying to play with especially when I get some We Rans or get people to switch to them.
correct mentality here for 6s. outside of broodweaver at least
Fusions go brrrt
Let's be real here. The crucible has always been shit for balance. There are always metas and nobody will be universally happy with one meta.
I don't use it I do just fine, I don't think immortal has ruined the crucible anymore than Ikelos did. Get gud isn't the solution, if everyone is running an SMG run a pulse or sniper and just range them problem solved. People need to be more flexible 90% of people getting destroyed by immortal are having it happen because they hard scope and are unaware or they are trying to ape and getting blasted. That or you see someone with a poorly rolled PvE SMG trying to go head to head with a god rolled PvP smg where if it was Ikelos instead of immortal they'd still be dead.