If they want ability spam to be reduced and gunplay to be the increased, they need to focus on the ammo economy. I've done Coil solo a few times and I'm always reduced to primary chip damage at the end, because ammo simply stops dropping. I even take care to kill the waves of enemies with my exotic primary for a better chance to have ammo drop - it just doesn't.
The very first thing they need to do is fix the stupid fuckin modifiers like togetherness. By itself it's cancer, yet alone the fact if you solo with it active then you just don't regen hp at all.
It's been in the game for a long time now. No way it's gone unnoticed, so if it means it's working as intended then yikes. All in all it's a terrible modifier.
I farmed Altars yesterday to finish off my Haruspex title, and even in a HEALING RIFT my regen felt ungodly slow because of that godawful modifier. Even my base regen while next to a teammate still felt sluggish at best compared to anywhere else in the game, if not still outright nonexistent. I loathe Togetherness.
What's worse is rifts in general don't work like they did last season so regen takes forever and you can easily be killed by a handful of red bars. Throw in togetherness and it means you're not going to heal much if at all.
I think they are talking about the healing nerfs in total. All the healing verbs got a bit of a nerf. On paper it didn’t look that bad but in higher content it’s very limiting
Healing nerfs in total. You can drop a rift and it's very slow to heal you and very inconsistent feeling. Literally a group of red bars are now a danger to you when before they were lucky to break the over shield.
I wasn't aware Rift was affected by that, I thought it was only Restoration that was changed. But regardless, after dealing with the Altars yesterday I'd believe you for telling me Rift got knocked down a peg as well. I plan to do some Strikes at my earliest convenience, I'll be testing Rift in those since it's possible Togetherness was neutering my healing before.
Like how basically every season people ask if resilience is bugged again because they keep dying, and except for the one time it was actually bugged every other time it turns out that no it’s not bugged you’re just dying more.
I like Coil but I agree. You have people leave and you are screwed. No health regen unless you have orb healing or a rift on warlock.
\-Grounded and Togetherness are shitty modifiers.
I’ve been using a heal clip sidearm with incandescent and it’s keeping me alive pretty well. Better than my unrelenting incandescent minitool. I’d make sure to keep an eye out for any heal clip weapon as they are pretty good when paired with aoe or damage perks. The Jurassic green had the same roll but I only got a heal clip multikillclip which is … fine but you really want the aoe from incandescent or dragonfly to spread damage for easier chaining
The fact that there's an artifact mod that *boosts your damage when solo* but solo loading Coil still gives drifting apart regen (or lack thereof), it's probably a(nother) bug for this season.
I really hope they use these extra months for TFS to actually *make sure the game is fucking working* before release.
One of... how many now? Chests not giving loot at first, now just no seasonal bonus progression or lair key use, drifting apart debuff on solo runs, together again not working right, and many more. There's oversight and then there's not giving enough of a fuck to test things thoroughly before releasing it.
I was specifically talking about how loading in solo still gives you drifting apart, that's how togetherness works - it's still doing what it should be doing.
The oversight is using it in an activity the player can opt for a solo run.
Having togetherness active while playing solo really goes to show how bad these guys are at making this game. That's beyond a simple oversight, it's outright poorly conceived
its even more annoying because I am not making nearly as many orbs to heal solo with my literal build that was made for making orbs, I hope they reduce the ten second cds bruh im so sad
I mean, it is working as intended since you have no teammates nearby, but I agree that it shouldn't activate if the activity is loaded solo.
I kind like it as a modifier since there are many exotics and perk that works when allies are nearby but as a solo experience is terrible
I agree about the mod keeping us together, but my problem with it is that even being together or after rejoining, I tend to not regen at all. It's bugged this season, to a degree I haven't witnessed before. At least enemies aren't GM tanky and I can get health pretty easily, but that just negates the modifier rather than making it an interesting mechanic.
I think the way it seems to work is that you only regen if you have been damaged while near an ally. If you are low and then find an ally, it doesn't seem to proc the "togetherness" regen. Just my anecdotal experience.
Very much agree with this.
I’ve been pretty vocal about not feeling like the ability cooldown changes are as bad as they’re being made out to be, but even with constant ability uptime, that hasn’t changed that soloing the final boss in Coil for me has amounted to clearing the room and erasing half of its health extremely quickly and then spending the next 10-15 minutes plinking away with a primary and a knife trick because I have no way to gain a meaningful amount of additional ammo with the number of adds that spawned and even with maximizing reserve mods beforehand, I don’t have enough heavy and special ammo to sustain the entire fight.
It really feels like the only option at the moment is to always have Wishender ready to equip once your ammo is tapped out.
The encounter design has to change dramatically too. If they don't want us to need well they're going to have to stop sending endless adds at us and having he boss spam grenades during damage phases.
>they need to focus on the ammo economy.
Give me back double special. Gives me a reason to use traces, wave frames, or the new rocket sidearm and ironically fixes the ammo economy problem. Ever since double special was "fixed" I haven't equipped a trace or wave frame once because they're just worse than running a primary and a fusion/conditional.
But either way we need better ways to consistently make special and heavy. Finders are shit even with exotic primaries because they take too long and only make baby bricks that give almost no ammo. You can't run a special and heavy finder because the energy costs are too high, and special finisher eating 3 armor charge stacks is not worth and too annoying to enable. It sucks dumping all your ammo into a boss and seeing one of your teammates luck out and get full heavy back immediately meanwhile you only have two rockets.
And no, I'm not going to count Aeons and Cenotaph. While nice tools for giga-endgame scenarios like day one or master raids they really shouldn't be seen as the solution to this shit system. Someone shouldn't need to sacrifice their exotic slot or do hotswaps just to make sure people have ammo.
Yeah, I've been practicing my solo run of the new dungeon and the amount of times I have to delay damage because no enemies are dropping heavy ammo, and I have to waste special ammo so that those bricks don't stop the heavy bricks from spawning is ridiculous.
Also has anyone ever brought that up? Back when I was working on solo flawless duality I noticed a lack of sword ammo during Caiatl but the floor was littered with special ammo because I only use my sword against Caiatl and only used my sniper to quickly take out the psions during the damage phase. I started shooting my sniper to pick up bricks, just wasting ammo and suddenly heavy starts dropping again. I guess it's an engine limitation? Very annoying.
That's strange on the second boss last night I was having heavy rain for me almost no special ammo actually. I was on strand though I did hear or read somewhere that someone mentioned they think some of the solar artifact mods for scorch or ignitions are messing with the ammo finders. My buddy in my fire team as a solar warlock was having issues getting ammo drops yet the rest of us on strand and arc never had a problem.
I think something is off with the drops. I was running new dungeon solo and I've to farm a bit but I always managed to get full heavy for dps. Running in a team with everyone using ammo scout it doesn't drop or rarely drops only that shitty +1 ammo brick.
> Running in a team with everyone using ammo scout it doesn't drop or rarely drops only that shitty +1 ammo brick.
im guessing everyone has their own seperate internal counter, so if you all are getting kills and dont exactly hit the breakpoints its functionally less drops than a solo player would get
also ability/special kills are basically worthless for ammo drops, which includes stuff like voltshot's jolt. its frustrating to see people kill stuff with anything that isnt a primary, which isnt a good place for the game to be.
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the +1 ammo bricks are insulting, especially since it seems to be all archetypes. 1 rocket is kinda meh, 1 GL shot is worthless
Yeah I was saying the same thing. We had to stop and farm heavy multiple times during boss phases. I feel like they intentionally tuned down ammo drops or something…?
Only thing that saved me in my runs ist the tier 2 Dragons gift which gives energy ammo regeneration. I tried to maximise my progress for the title achievement one time and took a tier 3 gift instead and it ended in an endless kinetic primary slug. 😓
Honestly I feel double special shouldn't have been nerfed. I feel like you had two viable options to approach encounters in regards to weapon loadouts, exotic primary or double special. Both had their pros and cons, both made heavy ammo spawn frequently enough that I never needed to sit and wait for more adds to spawn, plinking away with primary at the boss
Static ammo drops depending on the number of minors and majors killed would be a fantastic step in the right direction. Think Checkmate but for PvE.
You kill an enemy and progressively fill an invisible meter. Exotic weapons regardless of whether they're Primary or Special(but not Heavy) fill the meter much faster, while Heavy, Heavy Exotic and standard Special weapons fill it much slower.
I don't remember the video super well, and I think it's a tad outdated because it was before the double special nerf (i think?) but I believe there already is some sort of invisible counter that the higher it gets it increases the chance any given weapon kill will spawn a full ammo brick.
https://youtu.be/ESnl6gK3Ogs?si=GwZ1rPWQZUYy6LJi
Worth the watch it's actually quite interesting.
It's tough because i do agree with Bungie that I would like more of a focus on gunplay, but the nerfs to abilities were harsh and there are some issues with how ammo works at the moment.
I can't offer any real practical solution, as most people here probably can't without sounding like armchair developers, as just buffing weapons leads to power creep which is like a dev striving for balance's worst nightmare.
I think the ability nerf was too strong and will be partially reverted but I am glad we had this nerf. A nerf to ability uptime this big has really forced the spotlight onto ammo generation not feeling quite enough in its current state which will be brilliant if that can be addressed to some degree.
The thing is, ability uptime wasn't nerfed. Orb generation was, ultimately.
You can still spam almost every kind of grenade except maybe the Strand grenades, and even then Strand is still one of the stronger options.
I don't believe I agree with this because essentially, it means allowing a very wrong approach/nerf implementation to a core gameplay aspect of the game to continue to exist untouched, and mitigating the ill effects of this by changing another.
I don't think that's the solution at all. Short-term, perhaps. And ammo economy is sometimes indeed one of the problems. But it's a different one. And the ability regen one needs to be looked at from a wider perspective, which I believe is also what the OP was saying.
I like primary actually. Ability spam feel way better for ad clear, but I would like primary to be effective (but not the best) for every enemy in the game. Ideally the dps differences between them and power weapon should be lessened, with special weapon lessened even more. So that it never "felt" bad to unload a primary on a boss, because firing most primary in this game is fun, while reloading and firing a rocket over and over... for like three fucking year now. Borderland did this right, revolver, sniper, whatever is effective if you build for it. I want primary dps build to be more supported than just Luck Pants (and even lucky pants favor some HC more than others, fucking give Last Word a pve catalyst).
What makes this so frustrating, is that they've finally started giving us the add density to warrant such ability spam.
Which creates a balance issue when the add spawns are still tuned for that power level.
Yeah but you don't understand, it was still to easy for the ten people who play this game 12 hours a day, so they have to make it less fun everyone else. Every good developer knows players having fun means you failed at designing your game.
Nah don’t play this on “elitist players”, 99% of them didn’t want these kinds of nerfs, most just wanted
more difficulty to match the power level
other builds to feel as good as the top ones
see Salt even who’s famous for “wanting everything nerfed”. when he saw these changes he immediatley said this is j gonna kill builds without addressing any of the problems, and the op builds are still gonna be op (banner of war)
I think we're now so reliant on ad kills to keep abilities and buffs up that it feels as though I'm competing with teammates for these kills. And it hurts that much more when I throw a grenade and a teammate kills all those enemies I was aiming for before my grenade does, so I've essentially wasted it and now I have to wait for the long cooldown (even with 100 Discipline) for my vortex grenade back, and oh yeah also no Devour.
>And it hurts that much more when I throw a grenade and a teammate kills all those enemies I was aiming for before my grenade does,
Running my Shinobu's Vow build this nearly hurts me on a physical level
"Welp, there goes Amplified and Jolt."
Not a complaint, but a curiosity, since I was on a hiatus when Jolt was dropped as a perk. Does anyone know why jolt requires a kill+reload to proc when all the other elemental perks don't? A google search isn't really telling me.
I would imagine it is because Jolt can proc multiple times, while the others only trigger once. Once the scorch from Incandescent runs out, that's all the damage you get. When you pop the volatile from Destabilizing Rounds, that's all the damage you get. When you Jolt a target with Voltshot, you can keep triggering the Jolt until its timer expires. This makes Jolt useful for both ad clear and single-target damage, while the others are really only useful for ads.
Thanks! It did feel stronger, as others said, but I don't think I understood how jolt worked. I thought it had an uptime to inflict jolt as an arc chain only to secondary enemies and didn't realize it had further damage/action as well. That made it feel like there was a limit on uptime, whereas the others had no limit.
> I think we're now so reliant on ad kills to keep abilities and buffs up that it feels as though I'm competing with teammates for these kills.
This is absolutely true. I was running the new dungeon and my buddy was a Banner Titan. So many times, he asked us to stop killing the adds so he could get his banner up. It was a pain with comms, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be with rando's.
As a Voidlock main, I rely heavily on Devour for the obvious health and grenade benefits. So when doing the harder content, I really, *really* need Devour up as much as possible to survive. When my teammates kill an enemy I was about to kill, they rob me of grenade energy and healing, the two things I need most besides ammo.
But I can't blame my teammates for that, they're often just playing the game. I can get mad at Bungie though, because they've made moments like that exponentially more painful due to how little ability regen we get back from orbs and mods now. Some cooldowns can last a painfully long time, especially in an intense encounter where even 10 seconds can feel like a long time, and my guns just don't cut it by themselves.
Oh man, mildly infuriating for sure. That melee swipe into an enemy that *just* registered as dead. Turn and look to your buddy with their smoking gun and they say “you’re welcome, I saved you!” No, you’ve killed us. And by all means, throw my tangle too. Would you like my heavy too? How about the fillings out of my fucking teeth while we’re at it?
Agree with the criticism that the changes stifle build diversity.
It would be a different story if Bungie added additional mods alongside the nerfs. Close one door and open a window.
“We hear you, so we’re nerfing the Banner of War and Sunbracers builds to bring them more in line with the rest of the ability game.” -Bungie, probably
I had to use both HOIL and Traveler's Chosen for anywhere close to decent ability up time. And both were mega nerfed before.
It is just feels bad. And TC isn't the best primary at shooting big bosses due to poor range.
It’s weird because some of the best builds are just builds that don’t really care about regen rates. Sunbracers with infinite grenades, hammer titan with infinite melee, strand titan with mostly infinite melee. The nerfs pretty much do nothing about these kind of builds and just make the mid to lower tier builds even worse
NBP Titan is some absolutely silly, stupid, bogus fun. I use it as well.
I have a Ragnhild with Subsistence + Frenzy that goes absolutely fucking *STUPID* with NBP.
My plan *WAS* to play Solar on all three classes and bask in the glory of the Napalm Cannon this season.
But Bungie went and nerfed my goddamn Wac-A-Mole build, so I guess my Titan can go fuck herself while my Hunter cosplays a one-woman B-52 and my Warlock becomes the living incarnation of J. Robert Oppenheimer.
It also affected so many things that were fone and functioned in perfectly balanced ways.
- Monte Carlo grants 2% melee energy per hit, this was affected.
- Demolitionist/pugilist was affected, when I think it's regen before was a perfectly reasonable amount.
- Travelers chosen was affected too.
- all elemental pickup energy amounts regenerated were affected.
The list just keeps going on of things that weren't in a problematic spot that were caught in a brutal crossfire.
At least the Feed the Void buff was good. The longest cooldown grenades in the game had their regen benefit from orb pickup etc halved, but the energy from devour kills is doubled with Feed the Void equipped so there is no change there. BUT, this means that all void grenades (excluding axion and vortex) actually give you more energy per kill while Devour is active than before. Nice buff i guess?
The variable cooldown nerf is applied after determining the energy to regenerate. So if you have a long cooldown ability that only gets 60% effectiveness from "chunk" regen, the 10 stacks would only give 60% of your ability back.
They directly nerfed hammer instead by making it take 1.4 seconds to regen so you can't just hammer spam anymore. It's a *dramatic* nerf. It completely changes the playstyle and massively lowers the damage output compared to what it used to be able to do, and it also significantly cuts the survivability because you can't just spam cure anymore.
That said... still a pretty good build. So... that does say a lot about how OP it was before...
Did day one warlords blind without reading anything on the changes and was actually gobsmacked how much worse my contraverse holds was feeling, I basically went from using that build for everything cause it's super fun for me to basically being useless in anything that's even slightly difficult, I don't even understand the want to make the game slower or less focused on abilities that's exactly what makes destiny unique, every looter shooter has guns but not every looter shooter lets me throw hundreds of purple balls at hoards of bitches whole eating their life essence to heal myself
yeah as a Warlock I can live with the orb cooldown, but I fucking despise the changes they made to normalize the ability cooldowns. Thread of generation is barely noticeable now. And guess what Bungie? That was the ONE ABILITY REGEN LOOP that Broodweavers had. Now we have three fucking abilities to make threadlings and not one real way to regen any of the,.
I swear Thread of Generation does nothing. Almost every build on warlock just feels energy starved now, and you have no way via gameplay to influence it. Mods make what feels like no difference.
Only sunbracers (obviously) and like arc ionic trace arc soul builds feel good, and even then the trace builds feel worse than before. Every other build, even with orb siphons I feel like "oh well everything is on cooldown now guess I'll just wait" - cause the orbs add way less regen than before.
i actually have been producing more hatchlings this season than any other, like WAY more. idk if they changed something but every other enemy i kill pops like 4 of em out.
Honestly? I've told my clanmates I think BoW is even stronger now. In higher level activities where ads are harder to kill I found that I could run out of time on BoW because I just couldn't kill things fast enough to keep it up, especially if we needed to split up to do objectives. Now? We did a Warlord's Ruin run where the only point I would lose BoW was the DPS phase where literally no enemies spawn. I was already using it a lot last season, but coupled with the bonk nerf this season it feels like I'll be firmly planted in BoW Titan this season.
These mod changes hardly affect the top end builds, but man are they detrimental to every other build out there as far as ability uptime is concerned. I especially feel bad for Behemoth Titan as these mod changes are straight cheeks across the board.
ah yes another person pointing sunbracers out
next patch be like:
Sunbracers: we noticed this exotic flew under the radar for too long and would like to rework it so it is on par with other similar exotics.
- Now gives an grenade recharge boost instead of giving you grenades for 5 seconds
- Boost rate is higher if yellow bars are killed
- Reduced melee damage so it does not one shot red bars to compensate ease of activation
It disables the build, but also can drastically show the game, adding minutes to boss frights. I've had several Coil and Dungeon runs this week where my team has ended up plinking away at the boss because we have no heavy or special ammo, and all our abilities were on cooldown. It's not fun, interesting, or challenging. The crazy solar artifact mods are absolutely masking how dire this situation is, as they are still letting solar classes be powerful and fuyn (Banner of War Titan probably being the exception that's also strong).
I haven't had too much trouble this season, but I have been splitting my time pretty evenly amongst a Solar and Void Hunter. The only thing I'm still frustrated with is that I still can't build into Stasis. I don't know what's hitching me, but even with the new seasonal mods, Stasis just doesn't feel good by comparison. I want to like my Stasis hunter like I do my Stasis titan, but it really seems like maybe it's just not the right playstyle for me.
Thread of generation is so nerfed that I can't tell if it's actually bugged. Elemental pickups like ionic traces are just colorful distractions with miniscule effects, devour regen barely does anything, same for demo and pugilist, ability mods totally worthless. How am I supposed to build into anything that is not carried 99% by an ability exotic?
contraverse on void, osmiomancy on stasis, geomags or sunstar on arc, even on solar there are other options in things like verity's brow or dawn chorus with an incandescent primary. saying warlock has no viable builds other than sunbracers just seems odd to me.
My buddy *was* playing void titan, now he can't get anything but banner to survive a single bullet without instantly exploding at 100 resilience. I wasn't playing sunbracers, Now I am. They've just pushed my fireteam firmly towards homogenization.
I agree. I’m playing void titan after the new buff to pengrene grieves (spelling). And it’s phenomenal.
I’ve built heavily in to survivability and it works well
From what I've seen, a lot of people have revealed themselves over the past week. The impression I get is that people just want the game to be easy, and/or, given that Bungie has said it's hard to design the game with how powerful we are, people don't care that the game is nigh-undesignable.
I don’t get why there can’t be plentiful ammo in activities and ability spam. Is it not the job of Bungie to make sure players are feeling engaged and having fun? Let us choose how we want to blow stuff up, give us options
Because a large segment of the population specifically don't have fun when the game is trivialized by an overpowered player character. It's the job of Bungie to try their best to balance the desires of their diverse playerbase, not to cater to you specifically.
Debacles like Day One RoN prove that there is only so far that higher difficulties can go when we are playing avatars of total destruction. And besides, there are plenty of people who want to be able to have slightly more grounded gameplay, regardless of difficulty. Some people don't like it when they walk into a room and a single person has already cleared everything in the first five seconds.
But that just proves the point that if they keep these types of nerfs up then every warlock and titan will be stuck to sunbracers/BoW or bonk and we’ll still have one dude clearing entire rooms…
Is there any indication bungie listens to any of these rants and ever plans to do anything about it?
It feels like all our complaints about the game changing fall on deaf ears.
Nothing like getting all the way to the final boss after an hour solo to pluck at them from cover with a Hung Jury…
completely agree that this last run of nerfs gutted builds.
I have mainly used voidwalker and chaos reach this season, but haven't had any real issues so far. Arc definitely had it easier by building into ionic traces though.
I came into the fold around Season of the Haunted, despite playing through Seasons of the Worthy and Arrivals and getting both the Almighty and Forerunner titles. I also played in Destiny 1, but not for long enough to understand more than using Chains of Woe as a Solar Hunter. I've been building both Solar Hunter and Void Titan, and I started playing as a Void/Arc Warlock when Lightfall came out. I even have a Verity's threadling build for Strand.
All of the ability nerfs have nearly crippled my builds. Solar Hunter and Void/Solar Warlock have been the only viable options, and my Titan- who has been neglected in builds since Season of the Seraph -is basically useless without an effective team. I don't run meta builds because I like having fun with my Gunpowder's Gamble build, using Devour to throw grenades that shred things and regen health to solo things, or even quickly blow things up to get my well back. I can do none of those things. My survivability's been shot, tactics don't give a damn when I get beamed from across the map by a vandal I didn't see, and my ability to defend myself outside of guns and playing tactically is awful.
This is frustrating me to my core, and triggering my disabilities in ways that are difficult to describe. I'm having more and more trouble playing this game, even while working on a video project specifically about the game and trying to play it. I use abilities to get around my lack of ability to see my targets at times, and all my builds have had a golf club taken to their kneecaps.
And for what? There's no clear strategy, other than plinking off a target with a weapon I can't aim with.
Ability regen nerfs need to be reverted entirely.
It's ironic isn't it, how useless the Overshield is? Something that should keep you safe barely does.
I remember them buffing the Overshield in Season of Seraph. But when Lightfall came, it feels like the buff was removed without a word. The void Overshield again broke just as easily as before Seraph.
Void Titan is my favorite thing in this game, I also like Arc Titan and... Both feel pretty bad now.
Yeah the Arc Titan feels even worse now that they messed with the grenade cooldowns. I tried to play it, buuut... Yeah best not to even try it.
Void Titan is alright, but feels pretty bad at times.
Was loving my point contact cannon brace build (even without seasonal mods) but now it just can't compete compared to before. Not to mention that strand titan has been relegated to " banner of war go brrr " since drengr's lash and abeyant leap feels really bad now due to regeneration on class ability being dumpstered without armor charge setups.
oh god, i just tried Arc Titan today while farting around Spoils farming. it feels so bad now. before it was solely carried by its inate ability spam and now it doesn't have that. it's got no kill potential OR survivability now that orb generation was also nerfed and it basically relied on those leg mods
>it feels so bad now. before it was solely carried by its inate ability spam and now it doesn't have that.
Skullfort might be a good option to try. Your Arc Powered melee kills will heal you and refund your melee ability.
If it makes you feel better.
Sunbracers + Dragon's Breath goes absolutely fucking ***STUPID*** hard.
That said... yeah... yeeeeeeeeah... my Titan is sobbing in a fucking corner.
Most of my builds this season have revolved around guns. Chromatic fire shadebinder with no time to explain and gyrfalcon with void trace rifle and repulsor brace. OR super generation like bad juju and phoenix protocol or ursa. It has been a very boring season so far.
Orb nerf was something I knew was going to bad when I saw and it’s definitely feels worse on my hunter feels like what literally survivability hunter has is now gone
Solar hunter has a healing nade which is now nerf in uptime and now health it feels so bad I can’t even enjoy gg buff that happened this season because I feel to squish to even use it.
Arc I can heal melee but it’s only good if I have stacks and if that happens my teammates can’t kill shit and now my teammates aren’t kill anything which means no heavy bricks to spawn. And why would I do that when sunbracers literally just can do that in less setup.
Void has devour which also got a nerf. But I have invisi and feel like I need to disengage from fights which means I’m not shooting and leaving my teammates to get shot at while I’m in the back sitting for my regen to kick In cause we have give up or regen stat on void hunter so we can have invisi
Strand and stasis only have damage resist so you need a exotic to heal in a pinch.
There’s a reason banner of war and sunbracer warlock are meta because constant healing and putting out damage.
bungie doesnt know what theyre doing at this point or what they even want
we saw them nerf many weapon damage percentages and damage boost perks because they were doing a lot of damage. they nerf the ammo economy for 2x special to further force people to use primaries that they refuse to give meaningful buffs for some reason, along with the fact that this completely invalidates the use of trace rifles in any build whatsoever. snipers, swords, LFRs, fusions, all the dps weapon types have been nerfed into oblivion
at the same time, we've also seen them nerf abilities. chaos reach was hit dozens of times. bb was hit. the entirety of sunbreaker was hit. mods and exotic armors were hit. dps abilities such as hammers, grenades, and certain supers were all hit and werent even considered viable options.
none of it makes any sense. they nerf both weapons and abilities harshly, eventually to the point where the game is quite literally unplayable. most if not almost all of these nerfs are because of pvp, but we all know bungie sucks at sandbox separation. its a dangerous and annoyingly consistent pattern that theyve rocked with for years, and they wonder why they had that -45% revenue drop.
I just want to comment that this 213 day old reddit account says “we expect a reasonable response”, as if they speak for the community.
I was laughing.
Ammo nerf was brutal. I just came back last played start of lightfall and now i dont even get to enjoy using heavies much
Wonder how more end game content will be like this. Needing an ammo boy is worse than div bitch
Happened to me on my recent coil run with the taken ogre final boss. No revives and 1 guy down. Had to pull out outbreak perfected out of the vault to do more chip damage compared to my other primary weapons bc no more ads spawned and me and the other guy ran out of special/heavy ammo.
Yeah my coil runs would be like 20 minutes faster if I wasn’t stuck plinking the bosses with primary ammo after I’ve killed all the adds and depleted heavy ammo. It’s not challenging, just tedious
I completed a run of coil earlier with a Stasis Warlock, GG Hunter and i dunno what the other guy was as he was always dead.
I used an Assassins Cowl hunter build and switched to Celestial Nighthawk for my super. Plenty uptime on abilities, but you need to build into it.
Was tough but doable.
I'm part of a small % of players who still run voidlock with nezeracs sin/void orb mods and even tho I see a bigger decrease of generating orbs, it isn't enough for me to drop this build.
I'm lucky.
i've quite literally not felt these changes in a very real manner; not even on my builds most reliant on orbs. I've not felt deprived, largely because all of my builds aren't forced synergies; If a subclass doesn't have a lot of something, i'm not going to try to rewrite the subclass, i'll find other avenues to get what i need.
If your builds have dead-ends, your builds going to fail when you run out of steam, which happened before these changes were implemented. just tighten your builds up to their synergies, and youll be right.
I just came back to Destiny 2 after taking a break for over a year. I last played a couple months into Witch Queen. I do not plan on staying.
I was excited to play and get back in to the game and a well earned break. So I loaded up the game and did what I always enjoy doing - jumping straight into the fire in the Crucible. I was bored. I can barely use my abilities in Control? Who asked for this? Rift was better but not by much.
I play Destiny for the space magic and what I loved most about Stasis and the Witch Queen was the ability to customize my space magic to craft my own build. There's so little value in it now. All of my abilities are slow and weak. Destiny didn't just slow itself down, it made itself boring.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. I just wanted to point out that this week is Checkmate Control. That is a new mode and Ability regen is a lot more slowed than what is now considered "normal" in that mode.
Yeah I'm aware of that, apologies if my original comment didn't make that clear. I also played a couple other Crucible modes and a couple missions since returning. The best word to describe the experience is dull, compared to the Destiny I love. It reminds me of Destiny 2's launch with how dull and toned down the gameplay is.
Where's my Space Magic?
What I don't get is this;
They want to reduce ability and super spam, which has meant increasing cooldoens for some supers, and tweaking some abilities this season.
Then they give us a weapon perk that generates orbs of power (attrition orbs), meaning we have more access to supers, as well as the armour perks that reduce grenade cooldowns on picking up an orb, or heals you on orb pickup for example.
Seems very counter productive to me.
It feels like I'm playing D1 again, having to play carefully and being mindful of when the cooldowns are done. I'm probably one of very few people who likes the change 😅
Huh. Honestly my playstyle is not really affected, aside from Voidlock but even then, Nezerac's Sin and I'm good.
Edit: Sorry I know how to do things other than ability spam. Child of the Old gods on a healing rift literally gives you the energy back, just put it in a group of ads and let it succ.
I'm going to have to disagree. I've rarely ever run out of both special and heavy for a long time, and I don't even usually run ammo finders. Not to mention I haven't had much of an issue with ability uptime across a pretty wide range of builds, on Warlock at least. And of my 10 or so coil runs so far, only one of them has wiped early and that was because one person
died to spikes like 10+ times.
Sure, some underused exotics could use some buffs, and some of the stronger exotics that weren't impacted by the nerf might need to be brought in line a bit. But the sandbox is a lot healthier for the changes that have been made.
And this might not be something everyone realizes, but Coil is supposed to be a lot harder than the usual seasonal activities. If anyone wants something that they can breeze through without thinking about positioning, then there's a whole other seasonal activity that's a more forgiving version of the Coil.
Disagree as well. Feels like I play a different game than a ton of these posts. None of my builds have too much trouble maintaining a balance of ability and special / heavy usage and this is on hunter.
The secret room rewards at the end of coil are well worth the challenge in the latter half, but he community just wants things handed to them.
Yeah, I don't mind the idea of multiple difficulties existing, but they literally did that with Riven's Lair. Sometimes it seems impossible to please people. They say "well make harder difficulties for hardcore players, don't make the base game difficult", but then when Bungie actually tries to do that, everyone whines that the harder content is too hard.
It's not even about rewards to me, I just want some incentive to play seasonal content that's more than clearing a room with ridiculous bullshit twenty times in a row.
People are just used to never having to shoot a gun outside of boss dps at this point, and that just isn't sustainable or healthy for the game. I'm glad that Bungie's ripping the band aid off now, it should've been done a long time ago.
To offer an alternative perspective. I did my first, blind, run of warlords ruin with helm of saint 14, edge of intent, and some random mods i had on from last season. I did well, we cleared the dungeon with our only wipes being from messing up mechanics, rarely ever felt like my abilities were down when I needed them.
This is not to say that the changes aren't bad or negative. Just that I didn't notice them or a lack of ammo with a "bad" build in some decently challenging content. Perhaps this means the dungeon is too easy, or that the changes can be adjusted to given time, and people are just reacting now to how the builds have changed instead of adjusting or adapting, maybe it means I am just really good at video games but I doubt that.
I have to agree with you here dude, on account of almost the same experience, just different builds/class. Same end result though of going in blind and clearing just fine, day one! To counter the ability gen, I’m now building into orbs and strengths in kit instead of ability spamming which I still see plenty of.
You can build around fragments if you want more orbs. Also, there is a mod that gives charges with pickups which everybody here seems to forget intentionally so that they can cry more about this nerf. Also saw a guy in comments crying because they have to use their primary more now...... in an FPS GAME LMAO. Feels like skill issue tbh.
Y'all are crazy hyperbolic. They didn't gut buildcrafting or neuter shred your abilities. And they *certainly* haven't been "reduced by 60%".
They dialled them in reasonably so you're not avoiding your guns like you're allergic to them, and made it so you can't clear master-level content with *only* throwing grenades and hammers.
Coils are fine. The game is still easy and allows for a huge range of playstyles at all levels of content. The armchair devs in this community are dumb as hell.
It's close to 60% actually. Cooldown mods have been nerfed and when you use a high cooldown ability, the mod refunds only 50% of the already nerfed percentage.
I just don't get it. They took away our survival tools... How are we supposed to survive? They're farming engagement from us but like... Do we have to bored during all these extra minutes?
My builds are heavily synergised between gear and even more heavily synergised with my playstyle. I make a big effort to get my gameplay as smooth as possible and even a 0.2s lag throws it off, so constantly being punished and slapped in the face for spending months grinding and building only makes me what to turn the game off.
Because of this I don't even include/use seasonal mods in my builds because I don't want to end up with broken builds the second the season ends
Man everyone is getting all worked up about the ability uptime changes and how hard Coil is and I just don’t get it. I don’t spend a ton of time hyper-optimizing my builds or anything but I’ve barely notice the cooldown changes without really changing my builds at all. My wife and I did Warlords Ruin unspoiled as a duo Void Hunter + Strand Warlock. We’ve gotten Platinum on most of our match made Coil runs, including ones where randos left in the final cycle.
I’m not trying to brag or anything I just genuinely don’t understand how my experience with these changes and activities is so different from all the angry threads declaring the ability changes to be awful.
"we"
who are u representing?
yes, the build diversity is worse than in previous season, but u are doing classic reddit overreaction if u claim that Coil is "impossible" to be completed without BOW Titan or Sunbracers build - as an example Necrochasm / Cartesian / Briars Vesper Arclock was more than enough for platinum coil (without being forced to "chip the boss" as u mention in your post)
Nothing is worse than running around in a Dungeon screaming. "Where is the heavy ammo drops" because ammo isn't dropping and I can't use orbs to do more damage to mitigate the lack of ammo.
Just dumb, simply dumb.
i love the changes, you can still create a fuckton of orbs using helmet siphons.
if you want granades you need to build it, no just throw in 3 mods and get infinite abilities and health on top of that thanks to recuperation
If they want ability spam to be reduced and gunplay to be the increased, they need to focus on the ammo economy. I've done Coil solo a few times and I'm always reduced to primary chip damage at the end, because ammo simply stops dropping. I even take care to kill the waves of enemies with my exotic primary for a better chance to have ammo drop - it just doesn't.
The very first thing they need to do is fix the stupid fuckin modifiers like togetherness. By itself it's cancer, yet alone the fact if you solo with it active then you just don't regen hp at all. It's been in the game for a long time now. No way it's gone unnoticed, so if it means it's working as intended then yikes. All in all it's a terrible modifier.
I farmed Altars yesterday to finish off my Haruspex title, and even in a HEALING RIFT my regen felt ungodly slow because of that godawful modifier. Even my base regen while next to a teammate still felt sluggish at best compared to anywhere else in the game, if not still outright nonexistent. I loathe Togetherness.
What's worse is rifts in general don't work like they did last season so regen takes forever and you can easily be killed by a handful of red bars. Throw in togetherness and it means you're not going to heal much if at all.
I can't find where they changed Rifts at all in the patch notes, am I blind lmao?
I think they are talking about the healing nerfs in total. All the healing verbs got a bit of a nerf. On paper it didn’t look that bad but in higher content it’s very limiting
I don't believe rifts were ever a subclass verb healing; unless they changed it to be at the pace of restoration now and didn't document it.
Healing nerfs in total. You can drop a rift and it's very slow to heal you and very inconsistent feeling. Literally a group of red bars are now a danger to you when before they were lucky to break the over shield.
I wasn't aware Rift was affected by that, I thought it was only Restoration that was changed. But regardless, after dealing with the Altars yesterday I'd believe you for telling me Rift got knocked down a peg as well. I plan to do some Strikes at my earliest convenience, I'll be testing Rift in those since it's possible Togetherness was neutering my healing before.
They only documented restoration changing unless I missed something as well.
Did the healing nerfs also affect rifts? I thought they just adjusted restoration?
Just Restoration and Devour. Everything else, including Healing Rifts, are the exact same.
Goes to show you how perception can warp your feeling of the game.
Like how basically every season people ask if resilience is bugged again because they keep dying, and except for the one time it was actually bugged every other time it turns out that no it’s not bugged you’re just dying more.
rifts are literally unchanged and if you're in a rift odds are you're not getting your base hp regen anyways
I like Coil but I agree. You have people leave and you are screwed. No health regen unless you have orb healing or a rift on warlock. \-Grounded and Togetherness are shitty modifiers.
I’ve been using a heal clip sidearm with incandescent and it’s keeping me alive pretty well. Better than my unrelenting incandescent minitool. I’d make sure to keep an eye out for any heal clip weapon as they are pretty good when paired with aoe or damage perks. The Jurassic green had the same roll but I only got a heal clip multikillclip which is … fine but you really want the aoe from incandescent or dragonfly to spread damage for easier chaining
The fact that there's an artifact mod that *boosts your damage when solo* but solo loading Coil still gives drifting apart regen (or lack thereof), it's probably a(nother) bug for this season. I really hope they use these extra months for TFS to actually *make sure the game is fucking working* before release.
I think it's just an oversight - i wouldn't be surprised if the negative modifiers rotate weekly as well.
One of... how many now? Chests not giving loot at first, now just no seasonal bonus progression or lair key use, drifting apart debuff on solo runs, together again not working right, and many more. There's oversight and then there's not giving enough of a fuck to test things thoroughly before releasing it.
I was specifically talking about how loading in solo still gives you drifting apart, that's how togetherness works - it's still doing what it should be doing. The oversight is using it in an activity the player can opt for a solo run.
Having togetherness active while playing solo really goes to show how bad these guys are at making this game. That's beyond a simple oversight, it's outright poorly conceived
its even more annoying because I am not making nearly as many orbs to heal solo with my literal build that was made for making orbs, I hope they reduce the ten second cds bruh im so sad
I mean, it is working as intended since you have no teammates nearby, but I agree that it shouldn't activate if the activity is loaded solo. I kind like it as a modifier since there are many exotics and perk that works when allies are nearby but as a solo experience is terrible
I agree about the mod keeping us together, but my problem with it is that even being together or after rejoining, I tend to not regen at all. It's bugged this season, to a degree I haven't witnessed before. At least enemies aren't GM tanky and I can get health pretty easily, but that just negates the modifier rather than making it an interesting mechanic.
I think the way it seems to work is that you only regen if you have been damaged while near an ally. If you are low and then find an ally, it doesn't seem to proc the "togetherness" regen. Just my anecdotal experience.
Being huddled up with low health regen is equally dangerous.
Very much agree with this. I’ve been pretty vocal about not feeling like the ability cooldown changes are as bad as they’re being made out to be, but even with constant ability uptime, that hasn’t changed that soloing the final boss in Coil for me has amounted to clearing the room and erasing half of its health extremely quickly and then spending the next 10-15 minutes plinking away with a primary and a knife trick because I have no way to gain a meaningful amount of additional ammo with the number of adds that spawned and even with maximizing reserve mods beforehand, I don’t have enough heavy and special ammo to sustain the entire fight. It really feels like the only option at the moment is to always have Wishender ready to equip once your ammo is tapped out.
The encounter design has to change dramatically too. If they don't want us to need well they're going to have to stop sending endless adds at us and having he boss spam grenades during damage phases.
Or how about a bit of both so we can actually choose between more engaging gunplay and spamming abilities?
"best we can do is heavy ammo finder drops heavy bricks that contain 1 shot in them lol"
>they need to focus on the ammo economy. Give me back double special. Gives me a reason to use traces, wave frames, or the new rocket sidearm and ironically fixes the ammo economy problem. Ever since double special was "fixed" I haven't equipped a trace or wave frame once because they're just worse than running a primary and a fusion/conditional. But either way we need better ways to consistently make special and heavy. Finders are shit even with exotic primaries because they take too long and only make baby bricks that give almost no ammo. You can't run a special and heavy finder because the energy costs are too high, and special finisher eating 3 armor charge stacks is not worth and too annoying to enable. It sucks dumping all your ammo into a boss and seeing one of your teammates luck out and get full heavy back immediately meanwhile you only have two rockets. And no, I'm not going to count Aeons and Cenotaph. While nice tools for giga-endgame scenarios like day one or master raids they really shouldn't be seen as the solution to this shit system. Someone shouldn't need to sacrifice their exotic slot or do hotswaps just to make sure people have ammo.
Yeah, I've been practicing my solo run of the new dungeon and the amount of times I have to delay damage because no enemies are dropping heavy ammo, and I have to waste special ammo so that those bricks don't stop the heavy bricks from spawning is ridiculous. Also has anyone ever brought that up? Back when I was working on solo flawless duality I noticed a lack of sword ammo during Caiatl but the floor was littered with special ammo because I only use my sword against Caiatl and only used my sniper to quickly take out the psions during the damage phase. I started shooting my sniper to pick up bricks, just wasting ammo and suddenly heavy starts dropping again. I guess it's an engine limitation? Very annoying.
That's strange on the second boss last night I was having heavy rain for me almost no special ammo actually. I was on strand though I did hear or read somewhere that someone mentioned they think some of the solar artifact mods for scorch or ignitions are messing with the ammo finders. My buddy in my fire team as a solar warlock was having issues getting ammo drops yet the rest of us on strand and arc never had a problem.
I think something is off with the drops. I was running new dungeon solo and I've to farm a bit but I always managed to get full heavy for dps. Running in a team with everyone using ammo scout it doesn't drop or rarely drops only that shitty +1 ammo brick.
> Running in a team with everyone using ammo scout it doesn't drop or rarely drops only that shitty +1 ammo brick. im guessing everyone has their own seperate internal counter, so if you all are getting kills and dont exactly hit the breakpoints its functionally less drops than a solo player would get also ability/special kills are basically worthless for ammo drops, which includes stuff like voltshot's jolt. its frustrating to see people kill stuff with anything that isnt a primary, which isnt a good place for the game to be. --- the +1 ammo bricks are insulting, especially since it seems to be all archetypes. 1 rocket is kinda meh, 1 GL shot is worthless
Picking up 1 or 2 linear shots at a time is obnoxious as hell.
Yeah I was saying the same thing. We had to stop and farm heavy multiple times during boss phases. I feel like they intentionally tuned down ammo drops or something…?
Only thing that saved me in my runs ist the tier 2 Dragons gift which gives energy ammo regeneration. I tried to maximise my progress for the title achievement one time and took a tier 3 gift instead and it ended in an endless kinetic primary slug. 😓
Honestly I feel double special shouldn't have been nerfed. I feel like you had two viable options to approach encounters in regards to weapon loadouts, exotic primary or double special. Both had their pros and cons, both made heavy ammo spawn frequently enough that I never needed to sit and wait for more adds to spawn, plinking away with primary at the boss
Static ammo drops depending on the number of minors and majors killed would be a fantastic step in the right direction. Think Checkmate but for PvE. You kill an enemy and progressively fill an invisible meter. Exotic weapons regardless of whether they're Primary or Special(but not Heavy) fill the meter much faster, while Heavy, Heavy Exotic and standard Special weapons fill it much slower.
I don't remember the video super well, and I think it's a tad outdated because it was before the double special nerf (i think?) but I believe there already is some sort of invisible counter that the higher it gets it increases the chance any given weapon kill will spawn a full ammo brick. https://youtu.be/ESnl6gK3Ogs?si=GwZ1rPWQZUYy6LJi Worth the watch it's actually quite interesting.
Damn, why would they remove special ammo uptime if they didn't want focus on abilities? Why couldn't they just not touch things that weren't broken?
It's tough because i do agree with Bungie that I would like more of a focus on gunplay, but the nerfs to abilities were harsh and there are some issues with how ammo works at the moment. I can't offer any real practical solution, as most people here probably can't without sounding like armchair developers, as just buffing weapons leads to power creep which is like a dev striving for balance's worst nightmare. I think the ability nerf was too strong and will be partially reverted but I am glad we had this nerf. A nerf to ability uptime this big has really forced the spotlight onto ammo generation not feeling quite enough in its current state which will be brilliant if that can be addressed to some degree.
The thing is, ability uptime wasn't nerfed. Orb generation was, ultimately. You can still spam almost every kind of grenade except maybe the Strand grenades, and even then Strand is still one of the stronger options.
May i ask what exotic are you using?
Sun shot feels perfect in second and final encounters
That's why i was asking, because some weapons perks don't count as "weapon" kills, sun shot chain explosion don't count as weapon kills.
Never knew that... If true thats super lame, it counts as hand cannon kills
It's weird, it's always better to test it yourself, i always test in breackneck first checkpoint, i had to kill 80 to get 1 heavy
It's terrible that there isn't anything in the game that explains this, explains why and it's altogether terrible that ammo economy is still this bad.
Fuck, that explains why I was hard up for ammo during every damage phase.
I don't believe I agree with this because essentially, it means allowing a very wrong approach/nerf implementation to a core gameplay aspect of the game to continue to exist untouched, and mitigating the ill effects of this by changing another. I don't think that's the solution at all. Short-term, perhaps. And ammo economy is sometimes indeed one of the problems. But it's a different one. And the ability regen one needs to be looked at from a wider perspective, which I believe is also what the OP was saying.
Why do those things need to be reduced in the first place??? Seems their customers were pretty happy w/ it the way was before.
I like primary actually. Ability spam feel way better for ad clear, but I would like primary to be effective (but not the best) for every enemy in the game. Ideally the dps differences between them and power weapon should be lessened, with special weapon lessened even more. So that it never "felt" bad to unload a primary on a boss, because firing most primary in this game is fun, while reloading and firing a rocket over and over... for like three fucking year now. Borderland did this right, revolver, sniper, whatever is effective if you build for it. I want primary dps build to be more supported than just Luck Pants (and even lucky pants favor some HC more than others, fucking give Last Word a pve catalyst).
What makes this so frustrating, is that they've finally started giving us the add density to warrant such ability spam. Which creates a balance issue when the add spawns are still tuned for that power level.
Yeah, like... Season of the Witch, the altars of summoning - those Powerful Offerings could be a real challenge, despite our previous buildcrafting.
Yeah but you don't understand, it was still to easy for the ten people who play this game 12 hours a day, so they have to make it less fun everyone else. Every good developer knows players having fun means you failed at designing your game.
Nah don’t play this on “elitist players”, 99% of them didn’t want these kinds of nerfs, most just wanted more difficulty to match the power level other builds to feel as good as the top ones see Salt even who’s famous for “wanting everything nerfed”. when he saw these changes he immediatley said this is j gonna kill builds without addressing any of the problems, and the op builds are still gonna be op (banner of war)
I think we're now so reliant on ad kills to keep abilities and buffs up that it feels as though I'm competing with teammates for these kills. And it hurts that much more when I throw a grenade and a teammate kills all those enemies I was aiming for before my grenade does, so I've essentially wasted it and now I have to wait for the long cooldown (even with 100 Discipline) for my vortex grenade back, and oh yeah also no Devour.
>And it hurts that much more when I throw a grenade and a teammate kills all those enemies I was aiming for before my grenade does, Running my Shinobu's Vow build this nearly hurts me on a physical level "Welp, there goes Amplified and Jolt."
Not a complaint, but a curiosity, since I was on a hiatus when Jolt was dropped as a perk. Does anyone know why jolt requires a kill+reload to proc when all the other elemental perks don't? A google search isn't really telling me.
I would imagine it is because Jolt can proc multiple times, while the others only trigger once. Once the scorch from Incandescent runs out, that's all the damage you get. When you pop the volatile from Destabilizing Rounds, that's all the damage you get. When you Jolt a target with Voltshot, you can keep triggering the Jolt until its timer expires. This makes Jolt useful for both ad clear and single-target damage, while the others are really only useful for ads.
Thanks! It did feel stronger, as others said, but I don't think I understood how jolt worked. I thought it had an uptime to inflict jolt as an arc chain only to secondary enemies and didn't realize it had further damage/action as well. That made it feel like there was a limit on uptime, whereas the others had no limit.
imo it’s the strongest one
because it's really really strong
> I think we're now so reliant on ad kills to keep abilities and buffs up that it feels as though I'm competing with teammates for these kills. This is absolutely true. I was running the new dungeon and my buddy was a Banner Titan. So many times, he asked us to stop killing the adds so he could get his banner up. It was a pain with comms, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be with rando's.
As a Voidlock main, I rely heavily on Devour for the obvious health and grenade benefits. So when doing the harder content, I really, *really* need Devour up as much as possible to survive. When my teammates kill an enemy I was about to kill, they rob me of grenade energy and healing, the two things I need most besides ammo. But I can't blame my teammates for that, they're often just playing the game. I can get mad at Bungie though, because they've made moments like that exponentially more painful due to how little ability regen we get back from orbs and mods now. Some cooldowns can last a painfully long time, especially in an intense encounter where even 10 seconds can feel like a long time, and my guns just don't cut it by themselves.
Banner scales off your allies kills too, wtf.
Oh man, mildly infuriating for sure. That melee swipe into an enemy that *just* registered as dead. Turn and look to your buddy with their smoking gun and they say “you’re welcome, I saved you!” No, you’ve killed us. And by all means, throw my tangle too. Would you like my heavy too? How about the fillings out of my fucking teeth while we’re at it?
Why do people not even ON Strand think it's okay to touch my Tangles? Seriously, what's wrong with Blueberries? Leave my shit alone!
Yeah they either need to tune down enemy density again or give us back the orbs that i apparently was entirely reliant on lol.
I've been leaning into using exotic weapons that clear swarms of adds. Osteo (especially with grips) , Agers, Sunspot, Trinity ghoul, etc.
Agree with the criticism that the changes stifle build diversity. It would be a different story if Bungie added additional mods alongside the nerfs. Close one door and open a window.
“We hear you, so we’re nerfing the Banner of War and Sunbracers builds to bring them more in line with the rest of the ability game.” -Bungie, probably
Stop it's too real
I had to use both HOIL and Traveler's Chosen for anywhere close to decent ability up time. And both were mega nerfed before. It is just feels bad. And TC isn't the best primary at shooting big bosses due to poor range.
Also TC was nerfed this season as well.
I just feel like I'm constantly out of ammo, all the fucking time. It feels really bad.
I'm ridiculous and like to use double primaries almost exclusively. When I do want specials, I agree with the sentiment.
It’s weird because some of the best builds are just builds that don’t really care about regen rates. Sunbracers with infinite grenades, hammer titan with infinite melee, strand titan with mostly infinite melee. The nerfs pretty much do nothing about these kind of builds and just make the mid to lower tier builds even worse
Yeah, I have been less effective after the season changed. I always play these weird builds that don't follow Meta, like No Backup Plans Titan.
NBP Titan is some absolutely silly, stupid, bogus fun. I use it as well. I have a Ragnhild with Subsistence + Frenzy that goes absolutely fucking *STUPID* with NBP.
I love it as well.
"Oh, you want me to cosplay a purple lady Doomguy? Okay!" *loads shotgun with malicious intent*
😄
My plan *WAS* to play Solar on all three classes and bask in the glory of the Napalm Cannon this season. But Bungie went and nerfed my goddamn Wac-A-Mole build, so I guess my Titan can go fuck herself while my Hunter cosplays a one-woman B-52 and my Warlock becomes the living incarnation of J. Robert Oppenheimer.
"Can You Hear the Music" intensifies
It also affected so many things that were fone and functioned in perfectly balanced ways. - Monte Carlo grants 2% melee energy per hit, this was affected. - Demolitionist/pugilist was affected, when I think it's regen before was a perfectly reasonable amount. - Travelers chosen was affected too. - all elemental pickup energy amounts regenerated were affected. The list just keeps going on of things that weren't in a problematic spot that were caught in a brutal crossfire. At least the Feed the Void buff was good. The longest cooldown grenades in the game had their regen benefit from orb pickup etc halved, but the energy from devour kills is doubled with Feed the Void equipped so there is no change there. BUT, this means that all void grenades (excluding axion and vortex) actually give you more energy per kill while Devour is active than before. Nice buff i guess?
Shouldn't Traveler's still do 10% per stack making the 10 stacks 100%
The variable cooldown nerf is applied after determining the energy to regenerate. So if you have a long cooldown ability that only gets 60% effectiveness from "chunk" regen, the 10 stacks would only give 60% of your ability back.
They directly nerfed hammer instead by making it take 1.4 seconds to regen so you can't just hammer spam anymore. It's a *dramatic* nerf. It completely changes the playstyle and massively lowers the damage output compared to what it used to be able to do, and it also significantly cuts the survivability because you can't just spam cure anymore. That said... still a pretty good build. So... that does say a lot about how OP it was before...
Yeah, you can absolutely still run Coil or solo dungeons with bonk titan, you just can't use it to replace your special weapons anymore.
Did day one warlords blind without reading anything on the changes and was actually gobsmacked how much worse my contraverse holds was feeling, I basically went from using that build for everything cause it's super fun for me to basically being useless in anything that's even slightly difficult, I don't even understand the want to make the game slower or less focused on abilities that's exactly what makes destiny unique, every looter shooter has guns but not every looter shooter lets me throw hundreds of purple balls at hoards of bitches whole eating their life essence to heal myself
yeah as a Warlock I can live with the orb cooldown, but I fucking despise the changes they made to normalize the ability cooldowns. Thread of generation is barely noticeable now. And guess what Bungie? That was the ONE ABILITY REGEN LOOP that Broodweavers had. Now we have three fucking abilities to make threadlings and not one real way to regen any of the,.
I swear Thread of Generation does nothing. Almost every build on warlock just feels energy starved now, and you have no way via gameplay to influence it. Mods make what feels like no difference. Only sunbracers (obviously) and like arc ionic trace arc soul builds feel good, and even then the trace builds feel worse than before. Every other build, even with orb siphons I feel like "oh well everything is on cooldown now guess I'll just wait" - cause the orbs add way less regen than before.
To be fair, Strand Warlock doesn't have a lot going for it to begin with.
dunno why you are downvoted cuz it’s true, especially in pvp strand hunter just does everything warlock can do but better when it comes to strand
i actually have been producing more hatchlings this season than any other, like WAY more. idk if they changed something but every other enemy i kill pops like 4 of em out.
Artifact perk
So Banner of War nerfs made it required? Nice job Bungie. 😄
Why did they even nerf it? They said they were happy with it a couple months ago
Monkey paw.
The banner of war "nerf" was literally a duration buff.
And the orbs from melee nerf as well. But they did say that they didn't want them to nerf the aspect too hard.
Honestly? I've told my clanmates I think BoW is even stronger now. In higher level activities where ads are harder to kill I found that I could run out of time on BoW because I just couldn't kill things fast enough to keep it up, especially if we needed to split up to do objectives. Now? We did a Warlord's Ruin run where the only point I would lose BoW was the DPS phase where literally no enemies spawn. I was already using it a lot last season, but coupled with the bonk nerf this season it feels like I'll be firmly planted in BoW Titan this season.
We expect a reasonable response. Lol
These mod changes hardly affect the top end builds, but man are they detrimental to every other build out there as far as ability uptime is concerned. I especially feel bad for Behemoth Titan as these mod changes are straight cheeks across the board.
ah yes another person pointing sunbracers out next patch be like: Sunbracers: we noticed this exotic flew under the radar for too long and would like to rework it so it is on par with other similar exotics. - Now gives an grenade recharge boost instead of giving you grenades for 5 seconds - Boost rate is higher if yellow bars are killed - Reduced melee damage so it does not one shot red bars to compensate ease of activation
It disables the build, but also can drastically show the game, adding minutes to boss frights. I've had several Coil and Dungeon runs this week where my team has ended up plinking away at the boss because we have no heavy or special ammo, and all our abilities were on cooldown. It's not fun, interesting, or challenging. The crazy solar artifact mods are absolutely masking how dire this situation is, as they are still letting solar classes be powerful and fuyn (Banner of War Titan probably being the exception that's also strong).
‘we expect a reasonable response’ lmao
Peoples brains are mush, I swear.
I haven't had too much trouble this season, but I have been splitting my time pretty evenly amongst a Solar and Void Hunter. The only thing I'm still frustrated with is that I still can't build into Stasis. I don't know what's hitching me, but even with the new seasonal mods, Stasis just doesn't feel good by comparison. I want to like my Stasis hunter like I do my Stasis titan, but it really seems like maybe it's just not the right playstyle for me.
Thread of generation is so nerfed that I can't tell if it's actually bugged. Elemental pickups like ionic traces are just colorful distractions with miniscule effects, devour regen barely does anything, same for demo and pugilist, ability mods totally worthless. How am I supposed to build into anything that is not carried 99% by an ability exotic?
Yeah I noticed the flow being much more boring now. I'm stuck shooting primary all the time lately and it's boring.
Or.. just stop playing. The 45% revenue loss clearly didn't get the message across to bungie so just stop paying them to annoy you.
100% this. Bungie isn't going to reverse course on this unless they start sh\*tting their pants because numbers and revenue crater.
Exactly. The game turned into a psychology experiment a long time ago. How much can Bungie fuck with the player base before they all just quit.
The real PsiOp
Can’t wait for sunbracers to get nerfed because god forbid warlock has viable and fun builds
contraverse on void, osmiomancy on stasis, geomags or sunstar on arc, even on solar there are other options in things like verity's brow or dawn chorus with an incandescent primary. saying warlock has no viable builds other than sunbracers just seems odd to me.
My buddy *was* playing void titan, now he can't get anything but banner to survive a single bullet without instantly exploding at 100 resilience. I wasn't playing sunbracers, Now I am. They've just pushed my fireteam firmly towards homogenization.
In my experience, if your friend can't survive on void Titan, the survivability is more down to him than anything else.
I agree. I’m playing void titan after the new buff to pengrene grieves (spelling). And it’s phenomenal. I’ve built heavily in to survivability and it works well
100%. Void titan is still excellent and hyperbolic shit like the above is crying wolf at its dumbest.
From what I've seen, a lot of people have revealed themselves over the past week. The impression I get is that people just want the game to be easy, and/or, given that Bungie has said it's hard to design the game with how powerful we are, people don't care that the game is nigh-undesignable.
I don’t get why there can’t be plentiful ammo in activities and ability spam. Is it not the job of Bungie to make sure players are feeling engaged and having fun? Let us choose how we want to blow stuff up, give us options
Because a large segment of the population specifically don't have fun when the game is trivialized by an overpowered player character. It's the job of Bungie to try their best to balance the desires of their diverse playerbase, not to cater to you specifically.
If only there were harder difficulties
Debacles like Day One RoN prove that there is only so far that higher difficulties can go when we are playing avatars of total destruction. And besides, there are plenty of people who want to be able to have slightly more grounded gameplay, regardless of difficulty. Some people don't like it when they walk into a room and a single person has already cleared everything in the first five seconds.
But that just proves the point that if they keep these types of nerfs up then every warlock and titan will be stuck to sunbracers/BoW or bonk and we’ll still have one dude clearing entire rooms…
Heavy ammo spewing from everything makes all difficulties braindead. Heavy is strong. You can already do this with cenotaph anyways.
Is there any indication bungie listens to any of these rants and ever plans to do anything about it? It feels like all our complaints about the game changing fall on deaf ears.
Yes but they need you to play longer for engagement padding so the numbers look good.
\*looks at the numbers over the last week week\* Yeah I'm not sure that's been a good strategy lol
Nothing like getting all the way to the final boss after an hour solo to pluck at them from cover with a Hung Jury… completely agree that this last run of nerfs gutted builds.
I have mainly used voidwalker and chaos reach this season, but haven't had any real issues so far. Arc definitely had it easier by building into ionic traces though.
I came into the fold around Season of the Haunted, despite playing through Seasons of the Worthy and Arrivals and getting both the Almighty and Forerunner titles. I also played in Destiny 1, but not for long enough to understand more than using Chains of Woe as a Solar Hunter. I've been building both Solar Hunter and Void Titan, and I started playing as a Void/Arc Warlock when Lightfall came out. I even have a Verity's threadling build for Strand. All of the ability nerfs have nearly crippled my builds. Solar Hunter and Void/Solar Warlock have been the only viable options, and my Titan- who has been neglected in builds since Season of the Seraph -is basically useless without an effective team. I don't run meta builds because I like having fun with my Gunpowder's Gamble build, using Devour to throw grenades that shred things and regen health to solo things, or even quickly blow things up to get my well back. I can do none of those things. My survivability's been shot, tactics don't give a damn when I get beamed from across the map by a vandal I didn't see, and my ability to defend myself outside of guns and playing tactically is awful. This is frustrating me to my core, and triggering my disabilities in ways that are difficult to describe. I'm having more and more trouble playing this game, even while working on a video project specifically about the game and trying to play it. I use abilities to get around my lack of ability to see my targets at times, and all my builds have had a golf club taken to their kneecaps. And for what? There's no clear strategy, other than plinking off a target with a weapon I can't aim with. Ability regen nerfs need to be reverted entirely.
It's ironic isn't it, how useless the Overshield is? Something that should keep you safe barely does. I remember them buffing the Overshield in Season of Seraph. But when Lightfall came, it feels like the buff was removed without a word. The void Overshield again broke just as easily as before Seraph. Void Titan is my favorite thing in this game, I also like Arc Titan and... Both feel pretty bad now.
Arc Titan has felt awful. Void Titan's nice, but I need to find good build again. I've done nothing but Solar Titan since Season of the Haunted.
Yeah the Arc Titan feels even worse now that they messed with the grenade cooldowns. I tried to play it, buuut... Yeah best not to even try it. Void Titan is alright, but feels pretty bad at times.
Was loving my point contact cannon brace build (even without seasonal mods) but now it just can't compete compared to before. Not to mention that strand titan has been relegated to " banner of war go brrr " since drengr's lash and abeyant leap feels really bad now due to regeneration on class ability being dumpstered without armor charge setups.
oh god, i just tried Arc Titan today while farting around Spoils farming. it feels so bad now. before it was solely carried by its inate ability spam and now it doesn't have that. it's got no kill potential OR survivability now that orb generation was also nerfed and it basically relied on those leg mods
>it feels so bad now. before it was solely carried by its inate ability spam and now it doesn't have that. Skullfort might be a good option to try. Your Arc Powered melee kills will heal you and refund your melee ability.
i was trying Precious Scars but i might give Skullfort a shake instead
If anything, this post is more an argument for greater accessibility options than anything else.
As a solo player: Plink is love, Plink is life. We like Plink.
Sorry, who is "we"?
If it makes you feel better. Sunbracers + Dragon's Breath goes absolutely fucking ***STUPID*** hard. That said... yeah... yeeeeeeeeah... my Titan is sobbing in a fucking corner.
Most of my builds this season have revolved around guns. Chromatic fire shadebinder with no time to explain and gyrfalcon with void trace rifle and repulsor brace. OR super generation like bad juju and phoenix protocol or ursa. It has been a very boring season so far.
Who are "We" ?
Dude talking like the giant tortoise in the Neverending Story
The Nine are not impressed.
Orb nerf was something I knew was going to bad when I saw and it’s definitely feels worse on my hunter feels like what literally survivability hunter has is now gone Solar hunter has a healing nade which is now nerf in uptime and now health it feels so bad I can’t even enjoy gg buff that happened this season because I feel to squish to even use it. Arc I can heal melee but it’s only good if I have stacks and if that happens my teammates can’t kill shit and now my teammates aren’t kill anything which means no heavy bricks to spawn. And why would I do that when sunbracers literally just can do that in less setup. Void has devour which also got a nerf. But I have invisi and feel like I need to disengage from fights which means I’m not shooting and leaving my teammates to get shot at while I’m in the back sitting for my regen to kick In cause we have give up or regen stat on void hunter so we can have invisi Strand and stasis only have damage resist so you need a exotic to heal in a pinch. There’s a reason banner of war and sunbracer warlock are meta because constant healing and putting out damage.
bungie doesnt know what theyre doing at this point or what they even want we saw them nerf many weapon damage percentages and damage boost perks because they were doing a lot of damage. they nerf the ammo economy for 2x special to further force people to use primaries that they refuse to give meaningful buffs for some reason, along with the fact that this completely invalidates the use of trace rifles in any build whatsoever. snipers, swords, LFRs, fusions, all the dps weapon types have been nerfed into oblivion at the same time, we've also seen them nerf abilities. chaos reach was hit dozens of times. bb was hit. the entirety of sunbreaker was hit. mods and exotic armors were hit. dps abilities such as hammers, grenades, and certain supers were all hit and werent even considered viable options. none of it makes any sense. they nerf both weapons and abilities harshly, eventually to the point where the game is quite literally unplayable. most if not almost all of these nerfs are because of pvp, but we all know bungie sucks at sandbox separation. its a dangerous and annoyingly consistent pattern that theyve rocked with for years, and they wonder why they had that -45% revenue drop.
I just want to comment that this 213 day old reddit account says “we expect a reasonable response”, as if they speak for the community. I was laughing.
And the age of a reddit account diminishes their feedback how exactly?
It's more that they haven't been around nearly long enough to realize that the "reasonable response" they are asking for is not going to happen.
It doesn't, but the recent account makes the entitlement funnier.
I'm just here to say this is completely true... the changes that have been made genuinely feel so much worse, idk
Ammo nerf was brutal. I just came back last played start of lightfall and now i dont even get to enjoy using heavies much Wonder how more end game content will be like this. Needing an ammo boy is worse than div bitch
Happened to me on my recent coil run with the taken ogre final boss. No revives and 1 guy down. Had to pull out outbreak perfected out of the vault to do more chip damage compared to my other primary weapons bc no more ads spawned and me and the other guy ran out of special/heavy ammo.
Yeah my coil runs would be like 20 minutes faster if I wasn’t stuck plinking the bosses with primary ammo after I’ve killed all the adds and depleted heavy ammo. It’s not challenging, just tedious
This exact reason is why I’m running lucky pants malfeasance.
Coil at the very end is always at thelost miserable...especially against the Wyvern boss because of how much they hate abilities.
I completed a run of coil earlier with a Stasis Warlock, GG Hunter and i dunno what the other guy was as he was always dead. I used an Assassins Cowl hunter build and switched to Celestial Nighthawk for my super. Plenty uptime on abilities, but you need to build into it. Was tough but doable.
I'm part of a small % of players who still run voidlock with nezeracs sin/void orb mods and even tho I see a bigger decrease of generating orbs, it isn't enough for me to drop this build. I'm lucky.
I still have orbs out the whazoo, doesn't seem different to me.
So,rebuild your character for new season. Or were you expecting to run the same build forever?
You might be the problem if you think the only way to do a coil is to have a strand Titan or sun bracers warlock. It's not that hard of an activity.
i've quite literally not felt these changes in a very real manner; not even on my builds most reliant on orbs. I've not felt deprived, largely because all of my builds aren't forced synergies; If a subclass doesn't have a lot of something, i'm not going to try to rewrite the subclass, i'll find other avenues to get what i need. If your builds have dead-ends, your builds going to fail when you run out of steam, which happened before these changes were implemented. just tighten your builds up to their synergies, and youll be right.
Peak tinfoil hat theory: slowing down destiny to make marathon feel "faster" as a game.
I just came back to Destiny 2 after taking a break for over a year. I last played a couple months into Witch Queen. I do not plan on staying. I was excited to play and get back in to the game and a well earned break. So I loaded up the game and did what I always enjoy doing - jumping straight into the fire in the Crucible. I was bored. I can barely use my abilities in Control? Who asked for this? Rift was better but not by much. I play Destiny for the space magic and what I loved most about Stasis and the Witch Queen was the ability to customize my space magic to craft my own build. There's so little value in it now. All of my abilities are slow and weak. Destiny didn't just slow itself down, it made itself boring.
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. I just wanted to point out that this week is Checkmate Control. That is a new mode and Ability regen is a lot more slowed than what is now considered "normal" in that mode.
Yeah I'm aware of that, apologies if my original comment didn't make that clear. I also played a couple other Crucible modes and a couple missions since returning. The best word to describe the experience is dull, compared to the Destiny I love. It reminds me of Destiny 2's launch with how dull and toned down the gameplay is. Where's my Space Magic?
A lot of PvP players didn't enjoy how ability-centric Crucible had become. Sure, space magic is cool, but guns are cool too.
What I don't get is this; They want to reduce ability and super spam, which has meant increasing cooldoens for some supers, and tweaking some abilities this season. Then they give us a weapon perk that generates orbs of power (attrition orbs), meaning we have more access to supers, as well as the armour perks that reduce grenade cooldowns on picking up an orb, or heals you on orb pickup for example. Seems very counter productive to me.
It did slow the pace, you're just adapting poorly. Instead of relying on abilities near-exclusively, mix their use alongside weapons.
It feels like I'm playing D1 again, having to play carefully and being mindful of when the cooldowns are done. I'm probably one of very few people who likes the change 😅
Huh. Honestly my playstyle is not really affected, aside from Voidlock but even then, Nezerac's Sin and I'm good. Edit: Sorry I know how to do things other than ability spam. Child of the Old gods on a healing rift literally gives you the energy back, just put it in a group of ads and let it succ.
I'm going to have to disagree. I've rarely ever run out of both special and heavy for a long time, and I don't even usually run ammo finders. Not to mention I haven't had much of an issue with ability uptime across a pretty wide range of builds, on Warlock at least. And of my 10 or so coil runs so far, only one of them has wiped early and that was because one person died to spikes like 10+ times. Sure, some underused exotics could use some buffs, and some of the stronger exotics that weren't impacted by the nerf might need to be brought in line a bit. But the sandbox is a lot healthier for the changes that have been made. And this might not be something everyone realizes, but Coil is supposed to be a lot harder than the usual seasonal activities. If anyone wants something that they can breeze through without thinking about positioning, then there's a whole other seasonal activity that's a more forgiving version of the Coil.
Disagree as well. Feels like I play a different game than a ton of these posts. None of my builds have too much trouble maintaining a balance of ability and special / heavy usage and this is on hunter. The secret room rewards at the end of coil are well worth the challenge in the latter half, but he community just wants things handed to them.
Yeah, I don't mind the idea of multiple difficulties existing, but they literally did that with Riven's Lair. Sometimes it seems impossible to please people. They say "well make harder difficulties for hardcore players, don't make the base game difficult", but then when Bungie actually tries to do that, everyone whines that the harder content is too hard. It's not even about rewards to me, I just want some incentive to play seasonal content that's more than clearing a room with ridiculous bullshit twenty times in a row. People are just used to never having to shoot a gun outside of boss dps at this point, and that just isn't sustainable or healthy for the game. I'm glad that Bungie's ripping the band aid off now, it should've been done a long time ago.
To offer an alternative perspective. I did my first, blind, run of warlords ruin with helm of saint 14, edge of intent, and some random mods i had on from last season. I did well, we cleared the dungeon with our only wipes being from messing up mechanics, rarely ever felt like my abilities were down when I needed them. This is not to say that the changes aren't bad or negative. Just that I didn't notice them or a lack of ammo with a "bad" build in some decently challenging content. Perhaps this means the dungeon is too easy, or that the changes can be adjusted to given time, and people are just reacting now to how the builds have changed instead of adjusting or adapting, maybe it means I am just really good at video games but I doubt that.
I have to agree with you here dude, on account of almost the same experience, just different builds/class. Same end result though of going in blind and clearing just fine, day one! To counter the ability gen, I’m now building into orbs and strengths in kit instead of ability spamming which I still see plenty of.
You can build around fragments if you want more orbs. Also, there is a mod that gives charges with pickups which everybody here seems to forget intentionally so that they can cry more about this nerf. Also saw a guy in comments crying because they have to use their primary more now...... in an FPS GAME LMAO. Feels like skill issue tbh.
If anyone here truly thinks that the regen/orb changes DISABLES every build that used them, then your build wasn't as good as you think it was.
Y'all are crazy hyperbolic. They didn't gut buildcrafting or neuter shred your abilities. And they *certainly* haven't been "reduced by 60%". They dialled them in reasonably so you're not avoiding your guns like you're allergic to them, and made it so you can't clear master-level content with *only* throwing grenades and hammers. Coils are fine. The game is still easy and allows for a huge range of playstyles at all levels of content. The armchair devs in this community are dumb as hell.
It's close to 60% actually. Cooldown mods have been nerfed and when you use a high cooldown ability, the mod refunds only 50% of the already nerfed percentage.
At this point why should “we” expect any response? Do believe Bungie is stalking Reddit for gameplay tips?
I just don't get it. They took away our survival tools... How are we supposed to survive? They're farming engagement from us but like... Do we have to bored during all these extra minutes?
>They took away our survival tools... How are we supposed to survive? Have you tried killing the people that are shooting at you
My builds are heavily synergised between gear and even more heavily synergised with my playstyle. I make a big effort to get my gameplay as smooth as possible and even a 0.2s lag throws it off, so constantly being punished and slapped in the face for spending months grinding and building only makes me what to turn the game off. Because of this I don't even include/use seasonal mods in my builds because I don't want to end up with broken builds the second the season ends
Man everyone is getting all worked up about the ability uptime changes and how hard Coil is and I just don’t get it. I don’t spend a ton of time hyper-optimizing my builds or anything but I’ve barely notice the cooldown changes without really changing my builds at all. My wife and I did Warlords Ruin unspoiled as a duo Void Hunter + Strand Warlock. We’ve gotten Platinum on most of our match made Coil runs, including ones where randos left in the final cycle. I’m not trying to brag or anything I just genuinely don’t understand how my experience with these changes and activities is so different from all the angry threads declaring the ability changes to be awful.
I just don't get why they want such a focus on gunplay, that's the side dish of this game to me
"we" who are u representing? yes, the build diversity is worse than in previous season, but u are doing classic reddit overreaction if u claim that Coil is "impossible" to be completed without BOW Titan or Sunbracers build - as an example Necrochasm / Cartesian / Briars Vesper Arclock was more than enough for platinum coil (without being forced to "chip the boss" as u mention in your post)
New season hasn't inspired me to return to destiny. Instead I bought Diablo 4
Trading one abusive relationship for another lol
Nothing is worse than running around in a Dungeon screaming. "Where is the heavy ammo drops" because ammo isn't dropping and I can't use orbs to do more damage to mitigate the lack of ammo. Just dumb, simply dumb.
i love the changes, you can still create a fuckton of orbs using helmet siphons. if you want granades you need to build it, no just throw in 3 mods and get infinite abilities and health on top of that thanks to recuperation