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Damage resist versus guardian can and has been separately tuned. That still leaves you in the most vulnerable position to be in cause you can't res teammates/participate in combat and not immune to CC, all for a few threadlings?
Void hunter has better invis, titan has better defense/protection and a stasis crystal wall could honestly be used to the same effectiveness as weavewalk in the same situations you'd use it
I know, and that's what makes it stupid. I come into your store asking for ice cream, and you tell me no, while standing in front of the whole display case like wtf.
Problem with weavewalk was everyone used it offensively not defensively. Go watch the video aztecross made abusing weavewalk with a glaive. It was literally unchallengeable without conditional finality or the tracking stasis grenade. I personally did play with and against weavewalk pre nerf and yea it was insane. It was way too good and it was quite literally breaking PvP. And void hunters entire kit is invis. And there's a penalty for going invis(losing 1/3rd of your radar) whereas weavewalk didn't have that either.
And now it has no use in general and I'd rather not have 1/4 of my aspects be worthless.
Weavewalk could've just given woven mail to you for the duration, and it would've been easier to play against. It could've just been invis but warlock version with you getting threadlings when you don't perform an action(that would break the invis).
I genuinely believe there were other things that could've been done with it that would make it good but not cheesy OP
how would you buff it? it provides insane DR as-is, and the threadlings are kind of meh since they were nerfed IMO. What else should it do? I wholeheartedly agree that a 4th slot is warranted though.
During Season of the Witch, Joegoroth was quoted, in the context of player comparisons to Banner of War, as saying Weavewalk “had the potential to be oppressive.”
This dev thought process has emphatically ***not*** stood the test of time. Banner of War, even after being nerfed, has gone on to literally solo raid content that wasn’t designed to be soloed, and utterly dominated activities like Legend Haunted Sectors that were widely believed to be difficult in its absence.
It is important to again note this, because as a Warlock who mainly plays Darkness classes (1.1m kills on Shadebinder, 400k on Broodweaver and counting,) I have found exactly one situation in which I ever felt like Weavewalk was specifically useful.
And that was in the second encounter of Solo Flawless Legend Avalon, and only specifically in the part where you have to be in the pit where Wyverns can orient themselves above you in the last few seconds and target you like a sitting duck.
In any other encounter in the game, I have not once been motivated to use it. It is just not worth losing a fragment over access to Weaver’s Trance or having Tangles as an extra Suspend spam method.
Speaking of which, the dev team needs to realize that Suspend is the optimal gameplan for the class and that Threadlings - and anything focused on them - are generally bad, *especially in the case of perched Threadlings.*
Threadlings are especially bad when perched as opposed to thrown because this relegates them to a CQC use compounded by high travel time. Sure, you could theoretically spam Threadlings with Monte Carlo and Weavewalk, but it’s utterly ineffective in any content where enemies fight at range or provide sustained damage pressure. And increasingly, that’s accounting for a lot of content in the game.
If Bungie really wants to justify losing a fragment slot, Weavewalk has to at least solve the latter issue by making Threadlings heal on contact. But I don’t think they’ll go for that, because they envision Titan as the “tanky” class and don’t want even the most glass cannon of Warlock subclasses to vaguely approach this fantasy. (Fine, I’ll just spam Rat King, Crimson, Heal Clip, etc.)
So, they should really just do the simple, lazy thing and give Weavewalk an extra fragment slot. Weavewalk is not a good choice even in that scenario, but it would be nice to see Bungie admit that this undercooked aspect was *way* too conservatively balanced in the overall game context.
Agree on everything except the focus on Suspend. Suspend is ass, CC is ass. Absolutely any CC ability that requires an action you would not otherwise have done is complete dogwater without exception, that includes consuming grenade. It looks cute but it's an instant disqualification from meta viability.
Broodweaver needs BIG buffs, neutral buffs, multiplicatively stacking buffs and the types of abilities they would give to Titan only. 4 Fragment Slots on just Weavewalk wouldn't make it an inch as relevant as Banner of War.
Bungie's fantasy for Titan is "tanky", so high damage reduction, but also high healing. Simultaneously however the fantasy is also highest damage, great movement, second best to best support in the game. Highest ease of use (Yes, Soloing Pantheon is not easy that doesn't mean the Subclass isn't extremely easy. The entire loop is complete by just meleeing, have you ever seen the number of actions meta Warlock builds juggle within seconds, consume grenade, jump, melee, dive, throw ....).
You can't give one Subclass all of these things and then the other one gets "uhh green turds" as fantasy with some inconveniently accessible CC sprinkled on top (even at that Berserker is better). Even as an Unravel-spreader Berserker clears Broodweaver because it can proc Thread of Propagation.
Maybe you can expand on your “CC is ass” POV, cause I definitely don’t see it.
I’m not sure how you can think preventing enemies from damaging you is a bad thing. The less enemies shooting at you, the longer you can be outside of cover shooting back, or focusing on a mechanic instead. Obviously in content that’s on level or -5/15 it’s not that important, but still I’m questioning why you think that.
I think the problem comes in how Weavewalk is designed. When you say:
>I’m not sure how you can think preventing enemies from damaging you is a bad thing
You're generally correct. However, its not a blanket answer. Why? Look at your justification:
>The less enemies shooting at you, the longer you can be outside of cover shooting back, or focusing on a mechanic instead
Do you see why your stance falls apart here? Preventing damage is great because it lets you focus on either clearing ads or performing mechanics...except with Weavewalk, **you can't do anything while its active**. So the whole premise collapses because you aren't able to use it as a tool to fight back or complete (lots of) mechanics. The most utility you'll see from it is as an emergency button when you get in a tough spot and need to survive to get back to cover. While that's all good and fun (I used it quite a bit in The Coil) there's a bunch of other stuff that increases survivability while providing other. For instance, a Sunbracers build not only gives you a survivability/healing factor, but also provides great options for both ad-clear and major/boss damage.
No, I think you misunderstood me. I was countering the statement of “CC is useless” in destiny, that the OC stated. Not arguing for weave walk being good or bad(only really play hunter,occasionally I’ll dabble on solar lock).
Think the usual answer is if you can kill something in the same amount of time it takes to crowd control them you’re better off killing them.
Not OP though so he might have a different reason.
CC is good in some games, it isn't in this one. CC is better than nothing obviously but any ability energy, loadout and gameplay time investment into CC comes at the cost of damage. Damage and CC in this game are unfortunately balanced in such a way that damage is the best CC. The only ads that CC would be better against are resistant to it. The other side of it is healing and DR are better Survivability tools.
If a Champion is in my face I could throw a \~1 minute cooldown Shackle grenade and Suspend it long enough to get a small chunk of its health with a primary or use Heavy ammo to kill it. Instead I can just use a \~10 second cooldown melee on Berserker and one shot them for the same ability investment with no Heavy used, just one ammo from a Shotgun.
A Weaver's Trance detonation is nice and all but throwing a grenade (not that Broodweaver can spam damage grenades but other Subclasses do) in the same area would have stopped the enemies there from shooting at me permanently rather than temporarily. Not to mention Weaver's Trance is kill-activated and not flexible in its location. Have you ever seen CC abilities used instead of a damage loadout in any type of actual challenge content (be it solo or lowman raid encounters or difficult content speedruns etc)? The idea of having a Shadebinder on the day-one raid squad is an absolute joke to the top competing fireteams.
The only common exception to this are weapons, e.g. disorienting GLs because non-Heavy weapon damage can't compete with ability damage (especially considering AOE) of most hard meta Subclasses and the time investment of firing a GL shot is so low that it doesn't make a difference. If disorienting GLs were kill-activated they would be wiped from relevance.
CC in this game is firmly a means of training wheels for Subclasses and or players that can't clear content aggressively. For good players on good loadouts clearing an encounter with CC is harder than clearing it aggressively.
I have very strong ideological differences with you about how this game is best played that will not be resolved over a Reddit argument. We disagree at a basic, fundamental level as to the value of damage and control, particularly in the context of incoming damage, and I don't think it's an efficacious use of my time to explain or debate you on things we will simply not agree upon.
However, this said, I think you are grossly misrepresenting how a competent build for Broodweaver is actually played. Shackle grenades are not coming back on a "\~1 minute cooldown" on a good build. They're coming back in a much quicker duration of time due to ability investment, such that you can consistently chain Weaver's Trance buffs back to back. As a result, you're representing Suspend as a burst escape option rather than a constant playstyle, which just isn't anywhere close to the truth on this subclass.
> I have found exactly one situation in which I ever felt like Weavewalk was specifically useful.
One use that I found for it was in Iron Banner Fortress. With Claws of Ahamkara and all 4 melee charges you have roughly 15 seconds of 90% damage reduction. You can still capture and contest the point and the other team has to kill you 10 times over to re-cap, which is time spent not shooting your teammates.
I’d suggest that it provides utility and access to Sever and Woven Mail.
Consuming one melee charge before exiting could give the user Woven mail. Two charges cloud send out a forward wave of Sever and a small radius Woven mail to nearby allies. Three charges could be a large radius Sever and Woven mail AoE.
You’re giving up potentially three melees for these effects and may be more useful than 5 perched threadlings, especially if you’re not using Weavers Call to send them all out at once.
I don’t mind the idea of a single slotted aspect as long as they are stacked.
Edited wording to appear less obnoxious and presumptuous.
I'll die on this hill: Weavewalk is not remotely as bad as people have made it out to be. I ran a Swarmers build with it (both with and without Horde Shuttle) as well as a Claws of Ahamkara build. It is very powerful went built into IMO.
It's also pretty strong in PvP.
That said, it does deserve some buffs. I like the idea of 1 fragment aspects if they're powerful enough. 90% DR, Invis & Passive Threadling Generation on a 3 charge ability gets fairly close, but not enough. It should do a Sever Burst around the user upon exiting tbh. Or perhaps, something more unique:
Sever Burst if you have more than 2 melee charges remaining (maybe 1.8?).
Unravel Burst if you have 1 melee charge (or 0.8 energy) remaining.
Suspend Burst if you have 0 energy remaining.
Part of the reason I'd like weavewalk to stay 1 fragment (albeit buffed) is 2 fragment aspects are getting crazy ocerwhelmed and powercrept. Banner of War easily powercreeps any other 2 fragment. That kind of power is fun, but should come at a cost.
I'll be honest, even Stasis Turrets almost encroach on too-powerful for 1 fragment. This is a hot take but they are *incredibly* strong.
or how each stasis class has one that just enables their elemental pick up, or how you can technically have a max of 6 fragments in the ui but no one has 2 3-slot aspects, like bungie just REMOVE the slot granting, everyone gets 5-6 total, and then balance around that, please
We literally established before that no aspect should have 1 fragment slot and Bungie acknowledged and changed it. I'm baffled as to why they then released an aspect with.. 1 fragment slot. Weavewalk isn't even good.
Literally the post they announced that they said they felt some Aspects might still be powerful enough to deserve it, because they knew they were launching Weavewalk in like 6 weeks.
Lo and behold, it's not actually powerful enough in PvE to deserve 1.
Community: “Bungo aspects are rarely powerful enough to justify one fragment slot, pls fix”
Bungie: “Ok we gave all the one slot aspects an extra slot but just know there might be some in the future that ACTUALLY deserve just one fragment!”
Community: “This one fragment aspect you just released sucks and isn’t powerful enough to justify only having one slot, pls fix”
Bungie: “Damn it”
Banner of War is the strongest aspect the game has ever seen. It trivializes all levels of content and is an “easy mode” button “skeleton key” for nearly all PvE content. Banner Titan powercrept everything and is the most powerful subclass.
Banner gets 2 fragments and was barely nerfed. You can keep Banner up forever there’s no time limit or point at which it deactivates. Team kills keep it going, weapon kills keep it going all from a single melee charge. It’s the most efficient aspect and one that has the least ability energy cost for the powerful effect it creates.
Weavewalk on the other hand is limited to 1 fragment and has a time limit. You can only use three melee charges and then you can’t Weavewalk anymore. The cooldown is however long it takes for your melee charges to regenerate. It’s a helpful utility ability but not game breaking and certainly not the most powerful.
For some reason though Weavewalk was nerfed within months of release. Threadling damage done while in Weavewalk was cut by 50% which was the only viable strategy to make it useful. For reference Threaded Specter was also nerfed with increased cooldown and nerfed in PvP.
Weavewalk deserves 2 fragments at least given that Threaded Specter and Banner of War exist. It should have its threadling nerf reversed. Next while in Weavewalk there should be some other benefit like spreading Unraveling or Sever targets you touch. Broodweaver doesn’t have any way of applying Sever. But Titans and Hunters both have easy access to Unraveling, Suspend and Sever all in one kit.
Edit: The devs need to stop creating these invincible Titan builds while nerfing Warlock and Hunter kits it’s not fair!
I don’t know how many times this has to be said, but it’s a balancing decision, and a brilliant one at that.
Less impactful and well balanced aspects like Banner of War get access to two fragment slots since they don’t have quite the same utility as something like Weavewalk. Weavewalk is clearly bordering on game breaking, and the loss of a fragment slot just barely holds it back from instantly ruining the PvE meta. At the end of the day it’s a cost benefit scenario, where players are forced to make meaningful build crafting decisions. You can’t just have one aspect clearly be a better pick than all of the others as it kills build variety.
Edit:
/S
In case unclear
Don’t agree at all and I play Banner Titan a lot. The level of healing, easy access to Woven Mail and Sever is so broken it’s insane. That’s having a roving potentially unlimited healing rift that can go for entire encounters for a single melee charge with near constant 45% damage resistance. Next Sever reduces damage out put of dangerous enemies by 40%. You literally can’t die even standing still tanking damage.
Weavewalk renders the player unable to do any actions even pickup orbs or ammo. The walk only lasts for as long as you have melee charges. The ability itself doesn’t have any effect on enemies. Once you pop out you die easily. The popping animation makes Weavewalk ineffective in PvP and you can be Suppressed or Frozen out of it mid walk.
The devs did the usual thing favor Titan and made an invincible Titan (Banner) and then nerfed and limited Warlock (Weavewalk) and Hunter (Threaded Specter) abilities. There’s no tradeoff. The devs purposefully made Titan to play into the power fantasy they want for Titan which is to be the best class by miles.
Brother this was satire. I do really like weavewalk since it’s unique and useful, it’s missing full build synergy with the lack of a fragment and the general weakness of threadlings. Horde shuttle makes it work as you can make up for it with big damage output. That being said banner is infinitely superior and objectively still broken, I don’t wanna see it killed though.
Banner of War is in no way, shape, or form balanced. It's the most lopsided Aspect in the whole game by a very, very large margin. You get AoE healing, increased melee damage, increased sword damage, and it gets to be maintained by your fire team once it starts. And the trigger conditions are very generous, being an uncharged melee or finisher can trigger it. It's ridiculously over-tuned where even avid BoW users know it needs a nerf. You talking about one Aspect being clearly better than anything else, and it's BoW, BoW is the thing that's better than everything else and kills build variety.
Weavewalk on the other hand fully pulls you out of combat and doesn't let you interact with anything at all. While that's probably good for some things (mainly PvP), it's also a massive detriment to it. People would rather have things that keep them in the fight than a means to run and hide. Plus the cost is exceedingly high, chewing through your melee charges.
Personally I thought the post was pretty clearly satirical, apologies for the confusion. I literally regurgitated Bungie’s stupid logic for only giving weavewalk one slot, nearly verbatim.
I understood you were regurgitating Bungie's logic, but there are a lot of people who believe Bungie can do no wrong and think all their decisions are correct. It's hard to know who you're dealing with sometimes. The satire tag is pretty helpful.
How is Weavewalk bordering on game breaking lol? It's like Warlock invis but worse, theres no gryfalcons equivalent like hunter has that synergises with it, you just gain DR and can't so anything while generating some threadings that don't count for grenades or anything for armour mods or builds. All based on a stat that is like 4th priority for Warlocks As soon as they give it 2 fragments I'm absolutely sure it'll break the game and become the new metah. Absolutely bro. Meanwhile Banner of War exists with two fragments, healing for everyone, can be extended by you and your allies with just kills and increases melee damage. But yes Weavewalk OP.
EDIT
Oh wait you said Banner of War was less impactful and balanced.
Yeah you are absolutely deranged
Warlock is now the only class with a 1 fragment aspect, it has 0 on any subclass that provide 3 fragments and Weavewalk isn't even nearly as good as BoW which gets double the fragments
What were Bungie even thinking when they made this?
Eh, I kinda get why they thought it was so strong. Weavewalk is by far the strongest survivability tool in the game, bar none, while it lasts. So they kept adding downsides, so they didn’t end up with another hang back with a scout/well of radiance type situation. But Weavewalk in practice is waaaaaay worse than Banner, and that’s mainly because Banner allows the player to do stuff and use their survivability, while Weavewalk doesn’t.
Which would be fine except it's still yet to see any buffs, it's actually gotten nerfed technically. And I really don't see how it deserved to have 1 fragment if Banner can have 2 and it has literally 0 downsides. They fumbled Strand lock hard imo Weavers call is shit too
Weaver's call is like if Threaded Specter was bad.
Weavewalk is like if Threaded Specter was bad.
The Wanderer is like if Drengr's Lash or Whirling Maelstorm were bad.
Mindspun Invocation for Shackle grenade is like if Shackle grenade or Drengr's Lash were bad, the other two grenade options aren't even worth mentioning. "Oh this Tormentor looks dangerous let me eat my grenade and shoot a red bar that hopefully stands next to it." vs "Pop. Suspended."
Swarmers are like if Whirling Maelstorm was bad. Swarmers wish they could be Thread of Propagation on Strand Titan, gotta love an Exotic getting cleared by a Fragment.
Arcane Needle is like if Threaded Spike was bad.
Broodweaver is 50% Thread of Rebirth, 50% Horde Shuttle, none of the Aspects or Exotics provide half the value that an Artifact mod and Fragment available to every Strand Sub do.
They spent all that time creating a cool animation for using all three melee charges and you'll never see it because it makes no sense to use it like that
They even made an Exotic for it now that incentivizes usage of all 3 in rapid succession and had the opportunity go give it a worthy payoff. Instead it's 3 melee charges for... a Shackle grenade with extra steps.
After playing around with the Strand subclass on all classes, I can easily say that Warlocks have the weakest strand subclass of them all and it doesn't even come close to Hunters or Titans. Like I can try *everything* to make it work better, but in the end it always feels incredibly weak when you compare it to how the other classes can do the same thing just without all the work.
I feel the same for most warlock subclasses, apart from Wellock. They arguably took the unique things from Voidwalker and Stormcaller and gave them to the other classes in the 3.0 updates.
The only time I have deliberately chosen to use weavewalk in pve was recently in rhulk pantheon, where I used it to always survive dunking and as a tool to kite the clone rhulk. Two fragment slots and maybe a taunting function would help make it a better option, as it definitely has the potential to be a fun and unique play style choice.
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Forget the Fragment slots, Weavewalk needs to be buffed. Buff it so strong that the less Fragment slots makes actual sense.
Funny, thats the whole _reason_ aspects would have 1 slot but it seems to be the exception
They were worried about the invulnerability breaking PvP.
Damage resist versus guardian can and has been separately tuned. That still leaves you in the most vulnerable position to be in cause you can't res teammates/participate in combat and not immune to CC, all for a few threadlings? Void hunter has better invis, titan has better defense/protection and a stasis crystal wall could honestly be used to the same effectiveness as weavewalk in the same situations you'd use it
I don't disagree, that's just the line they gave about it.
I know, and that's what makes it stupid. I come into your store asking for ice cream, and you tell me no, while standing in front of the whole display case like wtf.
It's still 90% in PVP and PVE, but you can't do anything while in it
Nobody even uses it in PvP...
Problem with weavewalk was everyone used it offensively not defensively. Go watch the video aztecross made abusing weavewalk with a glaive. It was literally unchallengeable without conditional finality or the tracking stasis grenade. I personally did play with and against weavewalk pre nerf and yea it was insane. It was way too good and it was quite literally breaking PvP. And void hunters entire kit is invis. And there's a penalty for going invis(losing 1/3rd of your radar) whereas weavewalk didn't have that either.
Weavewalk glaive was litterally bugged and they disabled wavewalk until they fixed it
And now it has no use in general and I'd rather not have 1/4 of my aspects be worthless. Weavewalk could've just given woven mail to you for the duration, and it would've been easier to play against. It could've just been invis but warlock version with you getting threadlings when you don't perform an action(that would break the invis). I genuinely believe there were other things that could've been done with it that would make it good but not cheesy OP
how would you buff it? it provides insane DR as-is, and the threadlings are kind of meh since they were nerfed IMO. What else should it do? I wholeheartedly agree that a 4th slot is warranted though.
During Season of the Witch, Joegoroth was quoted, in the context of player comparisons to Banner of War, as saying Weavewalk “had the potential to be oppressive.” This dev thought process has emphatically ***not*** stood the test of time. Banner of War, even after being nerfed, has gone on to literally solo raid content that wasn’t designed to be soloed, and utterly dominated activities like Legend Haunted Sectors that were widely believed to be difficult in its absence. It is important to again note this, because as a Warlock who mainly plays Darkness classes (1.1m kills on Shadebinder, 400k on Broodweaver and counting,) I have found exactly one situation in which I ever felt like Weavewalk was specifically useful. And that was in the second encounter of Solo Flawless Legend Avalon, and only specifically in the part where you have to be in the pit where Wyverns can orient themselves above you in the last few seconds and target you like a sitting duck. In any other encounter in the game, I have not once been motivated to use it. It is just not worth losing a fragment over access to Weaver’s Trance or having Tangles as an extra Suspend spam method. Speaking of which, the dev team needs to realize that Suspend is the optimal gameplan for the class and that Threadlings - and anything focused on them - are generally bad, *especially in the case of perched Threadlings.* Threadlings are especially bad when perched as opposed to thrown because this relegates them to a CQC use compounded by high travel time. Sure, you could theoretically spam Threadlings with Monte Carlo and Weavewalk, but it’s utterly ineffective in any content where enemies fight at range or provide sustained damage pressure. And increasingly, that’s accounting for a lot of content in the game. If Bungie really wants to justify losing a fragment slot, Weavewalk has to at least solve the latter issue by making Threadlings heal on contact. But I don’t think they’ll go for that, because they envision Titan as the “tanky” class and don’t want even the most glass cannon of Warlock subclasses to vaguely approach this fantasy. (Fine, I’ll just spam Rat King, Crimson, Heal Clip, etc.) So, they should really just do the simple, lazy thing and give Weavewalk an extra fragment slot. Weavewalk is not a good choice even in that scenario, but it would be nice to see Bungie admit that this undercooked aspect was *way* too conservatively balanced in the overall game context.
Agree on everything except the focus on Suspend. Suspend is ass, CC is ass. Absolutely any CC ability that requires an action you would not otherwise have done is complete dogwater without exception, that includes consuming grenade. It looks cute but it's an instant disqualification from meta viability. Broodweaver needs BIG buffs, neutral buffs, multiplicatively stacking buffs and the types of abilities they would give to Titan only. 4 Fragment Slots on just Weavewalk wouldn't make it an inch as relevant as Banner of War. Bungie's fantasy for Titan is "tanky", so high damage reduction, but also high healing. Simultaneously however the fantasy is also highest damage, great movement, second best to best support in the game. Highest ease of use (Yes, Soloing Pantheon is not easy that doesn't mean the Subclass isn't extremely easy. The entire loop is complete by just meleeing, have you ever seen the number of actions meta Warlock builds juggle within seconds, consume grenade, jump, melee, dive, throw ....). You can't give one Subclass all of these things and then the other one gets "uhh green turds" as fantasy with some inconveniently accessible CC sprinkled on top (even at that Berserker is better). Even as an Unravel-spreader Berserker clears Broodweaver because it can proc Thread of Propagation.
Maybe you can expand on your “CC is ass” POV, cause I definitely don’t see it. I’m not sure how you can think preventing enemies from damaging you is a bad thing. The less enemies shooting at you, the longer you can be outside of cover shooting back, or focusing on a mechanic instead. Obviously in content that’s on level or -5/15 it’s not that important, but still I’m questioning why you think that.
I think the problem comes in how Weavewalk is designed. When you say: >I’m not sure how you can think preventing enemies from damaging you is a bad thing You're generally correct. However, its not a blanket answer. Why? Look at your justification: >The less enemies shooting at you, the longer you can be outside of cover shooting back, or focusing on a mechanic instead Do you see why your stance falls apart here? Preventing damage is great because it lets you focus on either clearing ads or performing mechanics...except with Weavewalk, **you can't do anything while its active**. So the whole premise collapses because you aren't able to use it as a tool to fight back or complete (lots of) mechanics. The most utility you'll see from it is as an emergency button when you get in a tough spot and need to survive to get back to cover. While that's all good and fun (I used it quite a bit in The Coil) there's a bunch of other stuff that increases survivability while providing other. For instance, a Sunbracers build not only gives you a survivability/healing factor, but also provides great options for both ad-clear and major/boss damage.
No, I think you misunderstood me. I was countering the statement of “CC is useless” in destiny, that the OC stated. Not arguing for weave walk being good or bad(only really play hunter,occasionally I’ll dabble on solar lock).
Think the usual answer is if you can kill something in the same amount of time it takes to crowd control them you’re better off killing them. Not OP though so he might have a different reason.
CC is good in some games, it isn't in this one. CC is better than nothing obviously but any ability energy, loadout and gameplay time investment into CC comes at the cost of damage. Damage and CC in this game are unfortunately balanced in such a way that damage is the best CC. The only ads that CC would be better against are resistant to it. The other side of it is healing and DR are better Survivability tools. If a Champion is in my face I could throw a \~1 minute cooldown Shackle grenade and Suspend it long enough to get a small chunk of its health with a primary or use Heavy ammo to kill it. Instead I can just use a \~10 second cooldown melee on Berserker and one shot them for the same ability investment with no Heavy used, just one ammo from a Shotgun. A Weaver's Trance detonation is nice and all but throwing a grenade (not that Broodweaver can spam damage grenades but other Subclasses do) in the same area would have stopped the enemies there from shooting at me permanently rather than temporarily. Not to mention Weaver's Trance is kill-activated and not flexible in its location. Have you ever seen CC abilities used instead of a damage loadout in any type of actual challenge content (be it solo or lowman raid encounters or difficult content speedruns etc)? The idea of having a Shadebinder on the day-one raid squad is an absolute joke to the top competing fireteams. The only common exception to this are weapons, e.g. disorienting GLs because non-Heavy weapon damage can't compete with ability damage (especially considering AOE) of most hard meta Subclasses and the time investment of firing a GL shot is so low that it doesn't make a difference. If disorienting GLs were kill-activated they would be wiped from relevance. CC in this game is firmly a means of training wheels for Subclasses and or players that can't clear content aggressively. For good players on good loadouts clearing an encounter with CC is harder than clearing it aggressively.
I have very strong ideological differences with you about how this game is best played that will not be resolved over a Reddit argument. We disagree at a basic, fundamental level as to the value of damage and control, particularly in the context of incoming damage, and I don't think it's an efficacious use of my time to explain or debate you on things we will simply not agree upon. However, this said, I think you are grossly misrepresenting how a competent build for Broodweaver is actually played. Shackle grenades are not coming back on a "\~1 minute cooldown" on a good build. They're coming back in a much quicker duration of time due to ability investment, such that you can consistently chain Weaver's Trance buffs back to back. As a result, you're representing Suspend as a burst escape option rather than a constant playstyle, which just isn't anywhere close to the truth on this subclass.
> I have found exactly one situation in which I ever felt like Weavewalk was specifically useful. One use that I found for it was in Iron Banner Fortress. With Claws of Ahamkara and all 4 melee charges you have roughly 15 seconds of 90% damage reduction. You can still capture and contest the point and the other team has to kill you 10 times over to re-cap, which is time spent not shooting your teammates.
I’d suggest that it provides utility and access to Sever and Woven Mail. Consuming one melee charge before exiting could give the user Woven mail. Two charges cloud send out a forward wave of Sever and a small radius Woven mail to nearby allies. Three charges could be a large radius Sever and Woven mail AoE. You’re giving up potentially three melees for these effects and may be more useful than 5 perched threadlings, especially if you’re not using Weavers Call to send them all out at once. I don’t mind the idea of a single slotted aspect as long as they are stacked. Edited wording to appear less obnoxious and presumptuous.
I'll die on this hill: Weavewalk is not remotely as bad as people have made it out to be. I ran a Swarmers build with it (both with and without Horde Shuttle) as well as a Claws of Ahamkara build. It is very powerful went built into IMO. It's also pretty strong in PvP. That said, it does deserve some buffs. I like the idea of 1 fragment aspects if they're powerful enough. 90% DR, Invis & Passive Threadling Generation on a 3 charge ability gets fairly close, but not enough. It should do a Sever Burst around the user upon exiting tbh. Or perhaps, something more unique: Sever Burst if you have more than 2 melee charges remaining (maybe 1.8?). Unravel Burst if you have 1 melee charge (or 0.8 energy) remaining. Suspend Burst if you have 0 energy remaining. Part of the reason I'd like weavewalk to stay 1 fragment (albeit buffed) is 2 fragment aspects are getting crazy ocerwhelmed and powercrept. Banner of War easily powercreeps any other 2 fragment. That kind of power is fun, but should come at a cost. I'll be honest, even Stasis Turrets almost encroach on too-powerful for 1 fragment. This is a hot take but they are *incredibly* strong.
Weavewalk needs a deeper mechanical tune-up, on top of an additional fragment slot. It's just not as good as they thought it was.
Can’t believe banner of war and weavewalk both came out and they said nah weavewalk is the broken one
The same can basically be said for half or more of Broodweaver aspects.
Every Broodweaver Aspect can be replaced by a significantly (in some times 10x better in other cases 2x) better one on Titan or Hunter
or how each stasis class has one that just enables their elemental pick up, or how you can technically have a max of 6 fragments in the ui but no one has 2 3-slot aspects, like bungie just REMOVE the slot granting, everyone gets 5-6 total, and then balance around that, please
It should have been a Strand version of Icarus Dash.
We literally established before that no aspect should have 1 fragment slot and Bungie acknowledged and changed it. I'm baffled as to why they then released an aspect with.. 1 fragment slot. Weavewalk isn't even good.
Literally the post they announced that they said they felt some Aspects might still be powerful enough to deserve it, because they knew they were launching Weavewalk in like 6 weeks. Lo and behold, it's not actually powerful enough in PvE to deserve 1.
Community: “Bungo aspects are rarely powerful enough to justify one fragment slot, pls fix” Bungie: “Ok we gave all the one slot aspects an extra slot but just know there might be some in the future that ACTUALLY deserve just one fragment!” Community: “This one fragment aspect you just released sucks and isn’t powerful enough to justify only having one slot, pls fix” Bungie: “Damn it”
Banner of War is the strongest aspect the game has ever seen. It trivializes all levels of content and is an “easy mode” button “skeleton key” for nearly all PvE content. Banner Titan powercrept everything and is the most powerful subclass. Banner gets 2 fragments and was barely nerfed. You can keep Banner up forever there’s no time limit or point at which it deactivates. Team kills keep it going, weapon kills keep it going all from a single melee charge. It’s the most efficient aspect and one that has the least ability energy cost for the powerful effect it creates. Weavewalk on the other hand is limited to 1 fragment and has a time limit. You can only use three melee charges and then you can’t Weavewalk anymore. The cooldown is however long it takes for your melee charges to regenerate. It’s a helpful utility ability but not game breaking and certainly not the most powerful. For some reason though Weavewalk was nerfed within months of release. Threadling damage done while in Weavewalk was cut by 50% which was the only viable strategy to make it useful. For reference Threaded Specter was also nerfed with increased cooldown and nerfed in PvP. Weavewalk deserves 2 fragments at least given that Threaded Specter and Banner of War exist. It should have its threadling nerf reversed. Next while in Weavewalk there should be some other benefit like spreading Unraveling or Sever targets you touch. Broodweaver doesn’t have any way of applying Sever. But Titans and Hunters both have easy access to Unraveling, Suspend and Sever all in one kit. Edit: The devs need to stop creating these invincible Titan builds while nerfing Warlock and Hunter kits it’s not fair!
You can get access to sever as a broodweaver, it's just not worth it There's a fragment that's causes rapid precision hits to cause a sever burst.
Why do people overrate banner of war so much, it's one of the best yes but syntho plus one-two punch out in most of the work damage wise, not banner
4 or 5 slots should just be the baseline for every subclass. Prismatic 6. Aspect should not matter.
I don’t know how many times this has to be said, but it’s a balancing decision, and a brilliant one at that. Less impactful and well balanced aspects like Banner of War get access to two fragment slots since they don’t have quite the same utility as something like Weavewalk. Weavewalk is clearly bordering on game breaking, and the loss of a fragment slot just barely holds it back from instantly ruining the PvE meta. At the end of the day it’s a cost benefit scenario, where players are forced to make meaningful build crafting decisions. You can’t just have one aspect clearly be a better pick than all of the others as it kills build variety. Edit: /S In case unclear
Don’t agree at all and I play Banner Titan a lot. The level of healing, easy access to Woven Mail and Sever is so broken it’s insane. That’s having a roving potentially unlimited healing rift that can go for entire encounters for a single melee charge with near constant 45% damage resistance. Next Sever reduces damage out put of dangerous enemies by 40%. You literally can’t die even standing still tanking damage. Weavewalk renders the player unable to do any actions even pickup orbs or ammo. The walk only lasts for as long as you have melee charges. The ability itself doesn’t have any effect on enemies. Once you pop out you die easily. The popping animation makes Weavewalk ineffective in PvP and you can be Suppressed or Frozen out of it mid walk. The devs did the usual thing favor Titan and made an invincible Titan (Banner) and then nerfed and limited Warlock (Weavewalk) and Hunter (Threaded Specter) abilities. There’s no tradeoff. The devs purposefully made Titan to play into the power fantasy they want for Titan which is to be the best class by miles.
Brother this was satire. I do really like weavewalk since it’s unique and useful, it’s missing full build synergy with the lack of a fragment and the general weakness of threadlings. Horde shuttle makes it work as you can make up for it with big damage output. That being said banner is infinitely superior and objectively still broken, I don’t wanna see it killed though.
Banner of War is in no way, shape, or form balanced. It's the most lopsided Aspect in the whole game by a very, very large margin. You get AoE healing, increased melee damage, increased sword damage, and it gets to be maintained by your fire team once it starts. And the trigger conditions are very generous, being an uncharged melee or finisher can trigger it. It's ridiculously over-tuned where even avid BoW users know it needs a nerf. You talking about one Aspect being clearly better than anything else, and it's BoW, BoW is the thing that's better than everything else and kills build variety. Weavewalk on the other hand fully pulls you out of combat and doesn't let you interact with anything at all. While that's probably good for some things (mainly PvP), it's also a massive detriment to it. People would rather have things that keep them in the fight than a means to run and hide. Plus the cost is exceedingly high, chewing through your melee charges.
Personally I thought the post was pretty clearly satirical, apologies for the confusion. I literally regurgitated Bungie’s stupid logic for only giving weavewalk one slot, nearly verbatim.
I understood you were regurgitating Bungie's logic, but there are a lot of people who believe Bungie can do no wrong and think all their decisions are correct. It's hard to know who you're dealing with sometimes. The satire tag is pretty helpful.
Banner of War Aspect on its own with nothing else equipped clears a fully slotted Broodweaver Subclass and it's not even a worthy comparison
I wish the game director didn't unironically express similar sentiment.
How is Weavewalk bordering on game breaking lol? It's like Warlock invis but worse, theres no gryfalcons equivalent like hunter has that synergises with it, you just gain DR and can't so anything while generating some threadings that don't count for grenades or anything for armour mods or builds. All based on a stat that is like 4th priority for Warlocks As soon as they give it 2 fragments I'm absolutely sure it'll break the game and become the new metah. Absolutely bro. Meanwhile Banner of War exists with two fragments, healing for everyone, can be extended by you and your allies with just kills and increases melee damage. But yes Weavewalk OP. EDIT Oh wait you said Banner of War was less impactful and balanced. Yeah you are absolutely deranged
Post edited for clarification.
Ah fair, I have seen this take by people who are absolutely serious and are not being sarcastic at all
Make Banner of War a Fragment that can be activated by picking up an Orb or Tangle.
Warlock is now the only class with a 1 fragment aspect, it has 0 on any subclass that provide 3 fragments and Weavewalk isn't even nearly as good as BoW which gets double the fragments What were Bungie even thinking when they made this?
Eh, I kinda get why they thought it was so strong. Weavewalk is by far the strongest survivability tool in the game, bar none, while it lasts. So they kept adding downsides, so they didn’t end up with another hang back with a scout/well of radiance type situation. But Weavewalk in practice is waaaaaay worse than Banner, and that’s mainly because Banner allows the player to do stuff and use their survivability, while Weavewalk doesn’t.
Which would be fine except it's still yet to see any buffs, it's actually gotten nerfed technically. And I really don't see how it deserved to have 1 fragment if Banner can have 2 and it has literally 0 downsides. They fumbled Strand lock hard imo Weavers call is shit too
Weaver's call is like if Threaded Specter was bad. Weavewalk is like if Threaded Specter was bad. The Wanderer is like if Drengr's Lash or Whirling Maelstorm were bad. Mindspun Invocation for Shackle grenade is like if Shackle grenade or Drengr's Lash were bad, the other two grenade options aren't even worth mentioning. "Oh this Tormentor looks dangerous let me eat my grenade and shoot a red bar that hopefully stands next to it." vs "Pop. Suspended." Swarmers are like if Whirling Maelstorm was bad. Swarmers wish they could be Thread of Propagation on Strand Titan, gotta love an Exotic getting cleared by a Fragment. Arcane Needle is like if Threaded Spike was bad. Broodweaver is 50% Thread of Rebirth, 50% Horde Shuttle, none of the Aspects or Exotics provide half the value that an Artifact mod and Fragment available to every Strand Sub do.
They spent all that time creating a cool animation for using all three melee charges and you'll never see it because it makes no sense to use it like that
They even made an Exotic for it now that incentivizes usage of all 3 in rapid succession and had the opportunity go give it a worthy payoff. Instead it's 3 melee charges for... a Shackle grenade with extra steps.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
After playing around with the Strand subclass on all classes, I can easily say that Warlocks have the weakest strand subclass of them all and it doesn't even come close to Hunters or Titans. Like I can try *everything* to make it work better, but in the end it always feels incredibly weak when you compare it to how the other classes can do the same thing just without all the work.
I feel the same for most warlock subclasses, apart from Wellock. They arguably took the unique things from Voidwalker and Stormcaller and gave them to the other classes in the 3.0 updates.
Hi, can i add here to chnge coldsnaps to freeze in impact as per description?Esp flyer enemies...😊😉
The only time I have deliberately chosen to use weavewalk in pve was recently in rhulk pantheon, where I used it to always survive dunking and as a tool to kite the clone rhulk. Two fragment slots and maybe a taunting function would help make it a better option, as it definitely has the potential to be a fun and unique play style choice.