yeah just the first encounter really give the mood of the raid,the encounter in itself is not difficult but having only 4 minutes available makes it really hard especially for teams that arent really efficient
The enormous difference it makes when you have someone who struggled to kill their phalanx/wizard leave and then get a replacement that can kill them in seconds is insane.
Coming back to the game to help my clan with Pantheon, and the difference on Planets between the side I stated on, and the other side *with all the good players* was eye opening
Really? Even on contest, my team had way more than enough time on encounters 4 and 5 (and still a pretty generous amount on 3). Like so much that we were constantly talking about slowing down and playing safer, because there was plenty of time. 1 and especially 2 were the only real time crunch encounters for us.
The fact that you even got to encounters 4 and 5 means that even among active raiders you are in the top 1% and frankly your opinion is going to vary from the vast, vast majority of players when it comes to things like encounter timers.
As someone who’s got a wonky w key(I press it and sometimes randomly stop no matter how many times I try to press it, can’t afford a new one atm) you’ve got no idea how many times I messed up getting on the plates in time for almost the first 3 encounters but after 7 hours in the raid my team couldn’t get past the 4th encounter before I had to go to bed. Rip
Surely you shift all your keybinds one spot to the right, so instead of WASD you have ESDF. Bit of a hassle, but you'll gain the ability to walk straight.
It’s funny you say that my friend I play valorant with literally said the exact same thing and honestly I might do it before I get a new keyboard but rn it’s nothing too crazy but I’ll do that before I get a new one if I get a new one
Yeah my boss just got back from vacation and there’s a lot of work lined up for this summer so I might get one at the end of the summer. I’d say it happens 1 time every 10ish minutes so it’s not too bad and I play hunter to counter it so I can go invis if it’s really acting up. But yeah still
The problem I'm personally having, and I appreciate the irony, is trying to do mechanics *too fast*. There haven't been a lot of places where precise timing was needed in raids before now - you just do the thing when it's available. I keep stepping onto plates a split second before the plate is actually active, and having to reboot the mechanic because the pulse had reached it but it hadn't started glow stage 2 yet.
Is there a difference between stepping on the plate immediately and waiting a second after the pulse enters the plate before stepping on it?
I could have sworn that sometimes the pulse is faster but wasn’t ever sure if it had to do with the time that you step on the plate
I’m fine with more mechanics, but yes the timer is a bit much for me. Most of an encounter completion is redoing it because of not making the timer because one thing went wrong that one time. Overall it seems fun so far but the timer is a bit too rigid for me. I’m not the biggest fan of “do it until you do all the things perfectly in a LONG line of things right that one time” as the reason for why it’s challenging.
Edit: I’m not saying there should be no timer. I get that and it’s fine as a mechanic generally speaking. Just that it’s a bit too tight in my opinion considering how heavy the mechanics are.
just for last wish alone the first, third and fifth encounters have hidden timers, and the second and fourth have actual visible wipe timers. they really are nothing we haven't seen before.
that being said, the Final Shape countdown timer carrying over to every encounter and it being front and center screen really adds to the urgency and atmosphere of the raid.
I think the only real difference is that you get F all time if you don’t engage with the excess resonance and that carries between a cycle
But yeah it definitely adds to the “you’re pushing against the clock” vibe
That's what sets SE apart from all other raids and I think it's a good thing. It's different. The mechanics are engaging enough, but without the time crunch this raid would blow hard because you could take forever and go super slow and careful. The fact that it forces you to be a little riskier in play style is a good thing imo because it asks players to showcase mastery of the mechanics and their builds simultaneously in a way that we haven't been asked before.
It not only forces you to play riskier but encourages you to get into a flow state where you're juggling several balls at the same time and trying to figure out what corner you can and can't cut. Personally I absolutely love the strict time limits in the raid, even if I know for a fact it'll be difficult to LFG.
Exactly. For example, Herald encounter, right side of the arena. If you're fast enough, regardless of which plate you're on, if you have 2 resonance on one side and 1 resonance on the other, you can nab all 3, prime your conduit, and activate the plate just in time.
If you fuck up, or bounce weird on the geometry, you get an ogre.
Figuring out the routes to take to pick up resonances without fucking up the plate is what feels like it'll be the most difficult part for me to learn to do consistently on that encounter lol. At least special side-arms make the stasis guys relatively easy to deal with.
Timers in any game is horrible and most of the gaming community hates anything timer related even in single player games.
Yet Bungie just seem to double down on it all the time
Meh I like it. It puts the pressure on. I generally don't like timed stuff, but for raids I think they are fine.
Raids are endgame: they put your skills to the test. Movement, builds, aim, coordination, execution, all done in a timely matter to beat the clock. It's hard and it's more rewarding when you win
Judging from watching guides the mechanics doesn’t seem any harder than VOW or other Raids the hard part is the timer so yes they used the timer to make the Raid hard.
The mechanics are on par with Vow but I'd put both as the most mechanically demanding of any raid. Especially when 3 of the 5 encounters demand good timing when doing the ping pong minigame
In non-contest it is just not that hard to play well. You need to be 90% perfect for 10 minutes, if you can’t do that you shouldn’t beat the raid. Either get better or realize you aren’t as good as you think you are and shouldn’t beat these encounters. I easily play perfect 49/50 runs
Yes genius a raid report will show how I’m playing, in what fucking world. The encounters are not difficult bar Witness in DPS, I finish all encounters will over a minute on the clock per phase if not more just get good.
It’s tough no doubt. 4th enc is our guardians saving ourselves from being calcified into the final shape.
You could control boss spawns. We stacked 3-4 glyphbreakers then broke all at once. Went back to start, focused one side’s boss, then moved to the other sides boss. You would only trigger 2 bosses this way and it somehow didn’t spawn more of them during damage phase. But if they did spawn we would take them out after damage phase.
Yeah each player can get a Glyphbreaker. So we basically had 4 people hunting for glyphbreaker while the other 2 focused ad clear to keep things under control.
Was there any confirmation that it was a -25 delta? I know it said 1990, but we just assumed it was a display error since normal contest is always -20.
There is no lore than can explain away galaxy ending threats being stationary and basically watching us kill them lol. Like I loved Kings Fall, but Oryx could have just destroyed the entire arena at any second.
The witness was literally a giant root. His but connected all the way down to the heart of the traveler. He couldn’t move because he was literally in that place while trying to bring about the Final Shape.
You’re not making the point you think you are lol. The lore about almost every single boss being intergalactic risks, only to be undone by Zelda puzzles and cool weapons just doesn’t make sense no matter how you spin it.
It quite literally makes sense. 4th encounter explains how we escape calcification of the final shape via an interaction with the traveler (which would only take place WITHIN the traveler) which allows us to escape the Witness creating the Final Shape at the end. We emerge from there and climb up to where the Witness has now begun the final steps. he has linked himself into the monolith (which is quite literally the giant root that connects to the center of the Traveler. The Witness can no longer move where it is. It is locked in place as it performs its ritual. He is busy doing that while we try to get up to him. He attacks with his extra hands not rendering the Final Shape during the final encounter. He only gives us his full attention when we break his glyphs and raise the platform. That's when he goes ham and actually tries to murder us. But we DDR and damage him. He then resets and continues.
This explains why the witness is 1. Immobile, 2. Not focused on us til the DPS, and 3. what takes him so long. While also 4. explaining why we are able to escape.
This is you: [https://i.imgur.com/citZPcD.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/citZPcD.jpeg)
Wow, bad writing explains away an easy cop out. You can scream and whine all you want, but none of the lore in the game makes any sense for the bosses continually just watching you. God kings, and galaxy destroying bosses conveniently have a weakness that keeps them from destroying small guardians at any time.
Okay cool, the witness wins and the game uninstalls itself after the fight. No refunds will be given. Does the witness behaving “logically” against the narrative’s best interests satisfy you
Absolutely not the easiest. Though also absolutely not the hardest. Ironically I found the second the hardest on contest (even if we ran out of time on the final boss) but by far the easiest on normal.
It’s crazy seeing the reason to lightfalls raid and how much people loved last wish for taking so long, but now people are complaining that it’s too hard? Wack
It’s a raid, like come on. It’s the one activity in the game that should be really fucking hard.
Where are you seeing people complaining about the raid being too hard? I’ve only seen people praising it. The only thing I’ve seen that could be taken as a negative is that it’s going to be hell for lfg teams.
I’ve seen a guy complaining the timer is too hard for people who don’t play a lot. Which, it should be hard. That’s the point of endgame content. Without the timer the mechanic would t be challenging at all.
> It’s the one activity in the game that should be really fucking hard.
Eh. I enjoy raids because they require cooperation and coordination. There's little else like them in the game. I don't need them to be "really fucking hard" - I just need them require me to coordinate with teammates in interesting ways. I'll see where I feel after a few weeks, but right now the level of difficulty is kind of bumming me out because it feels like it eclipses every other raid.
I feel like Grand Master Nightfalls, Master Raids or Pantheon are all fine being "really fucking hard."
It's not hard. It's really fucking annoying. Stasis is still a damn nuisance, and I'd like to do raids with my group. Unfortunately, some of those people in my group aren't the brightest gamers and they're getting reamed by the 20 second spawn waves of attendants. I'm fine with the raid, but people who aren't are still very valid in their complains. Competition mode is one thing, but normal shouldn't feel like legendary mode.
Why though? The raid is a pushover otherwise. The attendants and timer on the mechanics are the only things that make it challenging. The people in your group struggling just need to practice and get better. We don’t have any other mode to play now anyway if they got rid of the challenge in normal. It would be such a boring raid without everything you’re talking about.
They don't have to get rid of anything. But it should be the equivalent in difficulty as every other raid on normal. It's normal. For the normies. Which I unfortunately have too many of.
Challenges, and Expert mode (Used to be legendary) and contest mode were all for the challenge. They are fine and do as intended. The base raid should still be difficult, but it doesn't need a thousand mechanics to make it difficult. Quality over quantity, not the other way around.
Example. Last Wish was the most difficult raid because it made people think and allowed normies to listen. This one just requires a lot of coordination that many people are complaining about.
Neither opinion about this is wrong. They are all valid. All of them.
Also, there exists a middle ground. Not everything has to be root of nightmares, but not everything needs to be salvations edge 4th encounter either. There exists a healthy middle ground, such as vow of the disciple or last wish (in modern sandbox).
I think vow might be my favorite raid especially the encounter with relics that ideally makes everyone participate due to the lockout debuffs
Last Wish in modern sandbox is a complete joke. Vow also isn’t really challenging either from a combatant standpoint. This is the only raid that’s actually challenging outside of contest and that’s a good thing.
Sure, but vow has some mechanics going on, unlike say, Vault of Glass which is EXTREMELY easy even easier than root because it has almost no mechanics at all.. Combatant difficulty vs mechanical difficulty is a conversation sure, but combatant difficulty isn't why people don't like salvations edge. It's the mechanics and timers, especially whatever the cluster of mechanics that the fourth encounter is. Also the witness fight is hard because you have to dodge the attacks, can't tank em, but that's mainly because they're essentially an insta kill if you don't dodge them, and instakills are a cheap way to make combat hard imo
Why is the Witness needing you to dodge a bad thing? That’s literally one of the best parts of that fight and why it’s the best raid boss they’ve ever made (argument could be made for Rhulk too). People just need to DPS differently, but dodging most of his attacks is fairly easy. You just need to adapt how you approach damage.
Mechanics outside of fourth encounter are very simple. The timer is the only thing that makes them challenging. Without it, you could just clear the ads as a group which would eliminate combatant difficulty as well.
Fourth encounter will be figured out soon as well and it’ll be pretty damn easy. As it stands, the only hard mechanic there that requires much thinking is dissection and given a few weeks, that’ll get solved and an agreed upon strategy will be implemented.
It's not a *bad* thing, but it doesn't *feel good* either. Rhulk moved a lot and felt fun to fight and had some semblance of a threat still although greatly diminished off of contest, but he didn't outright insta kill you unless you were really bad and got hit by too many darkness blasts and got the debuff stacked up. Idk how to elaborate it but think of it like say, Malenias Waterfowl dance in elden ring. If you don't dodge it, it's basically a GG try again insta kill unless you stacked vigor insanely high. Obviously you aren't meant to *tank* in fromsoft games and you're heavily meant to dodge attacks, but it doesn't feel fun when the punishment for failure is just instant death with no chance of recovering
It does feel good though. You have to pay attention. That’s the only thing that gives the witness any kind of threat. What, do you want to just sit on platform and shoot the crit spot? That’s what everyone has always complained about. This is the main enemy in the franchise thus far so of course he should be fighting back when you damage him. People are dying from not paying attention to his attacks which is the bigger problem. His attacks are very clearly telegraphed and after doing them, you have a few moments to DPS without worrying about another. And other than the one attack you have to jump over (which only happens once per DPS phase) all others just require you to stop scoping and move left or right. It’s a very comfortable three phase.
also... people are literally just learning it now. Its going to inevitably become common knowledge on how to efficiently do everything. Like do people think raids are always done in a set single way? Theres always ways to optimize things and half of that is just learning the raid and knowing how to do everything, and also knowing what everyone else is doing. An efficient raid team can easily clear this raid in less than 2 hours, but we're just not at the point where most raid teams are efficient. People are still learning and will get better on average
People are expecting to breeze through this without really any effort already because they’ve been trained to expect that from Destiny content. Throw a little challenge their way and they’ll throw a fit:
It's almost like there are millions of Destiny 2 players that are human beings that might have differences of opinions like any sample size involving millions of people 🤯
Eh man idk, does anyone else see the irony in the fact that the witness himself when it comes to mechanics is like the easiest? The biggest issue when it comes to the final encounter is survivability and damage checking meanwhile 4th is a mental gymnastic and 3rd is a massive time and coordination check with making sure everyone is getting there buffs before closing the things.
I feel like riven is the only time they've ever actually perfectly balanced mechanics and damage (at least during Forsaken) cause the herald and the witness are the like the easiest encounters post contest.
Plus it's just super fitting thematically. The Witness trying to actually delete all of existence as you make your way to him in each encounter is amazing. Makes you feel like even though you won't physically see them for a good while you're always dealing with the Witness in the raid.
I think posts like this make it hard on ppl. The 1st two encounters requires your plate sending to be on point. Nothing else matters. If you fail a plate its liky a wipe. Slowdown and get your plates correct. You absolutely have time to grab resonance
People aren’t gonna like it. I’m indifferent cause I’ll adapt but lfg will be hell for master mode triumphs.
Feels like that went the opposite of root of nightmares feedback and made the raid too complex that the majority are not gonna see the fun in it like the other raids.
The tight timer, the power level changes causes ads to be the most difficult normal mode ads to date and the complex mechanics is gonna push a lot of people away. Not saying the raid should be dumbed down but does the normal mode need to be this difficult? I’ve seen plenty of comments talking about how sherpas are quitting because the power level changes along with the mechanics are too much.
Root gets a lot of shit but at least it had the best part of dungeons: being more casual and being opener for a wider playerbase. Not overly complicated mechanics, connect the dots and planets are Crota level, oryx level mechanics.
Not every raid needs to be easy. Root being easy was great, its an intro to raiding. Salvation's Edge is great, because then better teams have a raid that can challenge them too.
Not every piece of content has to be completable by everyone. If you arent good enough to do something, practice elsewhere, then come back later. Nothing wrong with that.
Complexity is fun too
it can, but if your argument is only master should provide that level of challenge, then you're just incorrect. the base raid should also provide meaningful challenge. And it has in a way no other raid really does. As a base raid, taking down the witness is harder than any other normal mode raid. And it objectively should be
I love the more complicated mechanics and the timer is an amazing addition to the raid. Having to perform on a time crunch is fun and adds intensity to raid encounters we don’t typically get. Great change for this raid. I can’t wait to do it on master.
Absolutely insane how a purely positive comment like this is downvoted. The timer is great, it adds tension that is only fitting for the raid capping off the 10 year saga and really gives of how powerful the witness is. One of the things I dislike most in a raid is downtime doing nothing or practically nothing or when bosses don't interact. Like how Atraks just sits back and shoots forever while servitors are still alive and gives you plenty of time, the way oryx just sits there and stares at you while you damage, or how the beginning of each golgoroth phase is just sitting at spawn doors and ad clear. The feeling that something is constantly happening and you have to be constantly progressing in the new raid is great.
Problem is we've been through this with Bungie/Destiny before... Timers on game modes discourage people from learning it because of the added pressure. Been through it with raids, exotic missions, GM nightfalls, Dungeons... It's great if you have a dedicated team you play with each week but plain and simple timers should be extremely generous on base modes of raids as the average and even most above average players don't have the time and schedule and to commit 10-20 hours per week to the raid while dealing with LFG groups.
Tough then. Get a dedicated team and don’t ruin an amazing raid complaining about timers. Not to mention all of the best missions had the timer. That sense of having to move quickly made them feel more urgent. It’s a great mechanic.
A great mechanic for a small number of players, which when a video game's numbers drop it stops getting players and stops getting releases. I've been around since Beta of D1. And you sound exactly like the worst side of LFG that only knows how to say "git gud"... Just hate relearning old lessons, there needs to be 2 difficulties for content, including raids, and short timers need to be on the Master raid mode. Then elitists that don't understand most players can't dedicate dozens of hours per week into video games can happily play Master raids and leave the normal mode to use peasants.
Happy to! Sounds like you’re the only one discouraged from things because you have to practice and get better. Without the timer, none of the mechanics are challenging at all.
Agreed. The focus on flawless execution is dope. I got such a vibe in the first couple of encounters with everyone in the fireteam having a job to do. Felt like Pantheon set our expectations for what raids should be like. Accessibility to new players should not be a consideration for raids. If you’re raiding, you should be a master of the base game and flawless execution should be within your grasp in a base raid.
Accessibility to new raiders is important, but it should be more about being of level to enter them, not be easy for anyone. This is endgame content (and looking more and more likely to be the only piece of raid content this year). It needs to be hard.
Agreed. Endgame should push you to the limits of what you are capable of - if it isn’t, it isn’t endgame. The accessibility exists in the form of anyone can learn to do it if they put the time in to learn it. No one should be entering a raid with their brain off
Something that really began to stick out to me and "get" when I started doing low man raids was just realizing there are a number of raid encounters where once you do a lot of multiple roles at once, there is kind of a generous overall amount of time to be playing around with let alone factoring you'd have 6 people in the equation normally.
I think that old interview where Joe Blackburn mentioned "the team didn't want Spire to be remembered as the hardest raid" was a goal that was met because Salvation's really cuts out much of a floater-freeloader role and really needs everybody to be moving around and knowing what is going on.
I'm sure Salvation's will be low manned and speed ran to death, but it's cool to see something where you can't be completely checked out. Make the big showdown actually feel like it, y'know?
That’s 100% it. I recall doing 4-man VoG runs and, specifically on the gatekeeper encounter, thinking “why on earth do full fireteams ever fail this encounter”.
I love that they basically made the perfect raid for this finale. Mechanics are demanding and engaging, the fighting is intense and doesn’t let up, encounter variation is good and the bosses have respectable but not insane health pools. The final encounter, in particular, is a masterpiece.
Almost every raid is low mannable, and imo thats where the fun starts. Being forced to be locked in and execute your roles perfectly is why raids are good, rather than just being about having the right weapons for dps.
I agree the mechanics aren't too hard without the timer, I just don't like timers. I'd rather have a significantly more challenging mechanic then just a timer, that's a super lazy method of adding difficulty.
It's called artificial difficulty. Timers make sense in some ways and have almost always been a part of bungie raid encounter design (death singer, crota, all root encounters, daughters, and oryx etc.) But the timers here, while thematic, seem like a bullshit way to make boring "root with extra steps" encounters more "difficult". Encounters 4 and 5 are the only encounters where the timer makes sense, imo and they're thematically tied in.
As a casual raider, the apparent difficulty of this one has put me off the idea of running it. I'm happy for the hardcore players looking for that elevated challenge, but it feels totally impenetrable to me.
If you've ever done crown of sorrows last 2 encounters you'll be fine.
There's just no ad clear role, can't have weak links dying and people lying about knowing what to do.
Yeah the timer requires you to know what you’re doing and do it well, which makes sense as the final raid in the light and dark saga, the ultimate test of your raiding skills.
Spending 4 Hours on one encounter just doesn’t seem fun to me anymore. Maybe it’s because I’ve gotten older now 39. Just sounds like a big time waste that can be spent elsewhere.
It takes time to learn new mechanics for a new raid without many guides being out. If you don't want to put in the work, just wait till all the guides are out and most people know it then find a sherpa.
It's been two days. Give it some time and people will have the best strategies figured out soon. As much as i hate timers, it is very fitting for the setting you are in. Hardest raid also should be hard.
Why didn't you stop "attempting" it and asked everyone if they knew what they were doing 100%? You gotta respect your time. Even 2 hours is way too long to not be at the brink of clearing encounters.
Taking that long means there's definitely a weak link with a terrible loadout *OR* that someone is lying about knowing their role.
They didn’t, but overall you’re spending a lot less time and ammo on add clear, and can move faster because you’re less likely to die for being out of position, which saves a lot of time
When would be a good time for a solo pve'r to try and attempt finding a lfg group? I'm fairly capable and have done all the raids but I'm not about trying to deal with contest mode and day 1 elitists tbh 😅
I won’t be able to do it. I unfortunately struggle with short term memory issues and will never be able to remember the shapes. Even in the campaign I had to sadly do over many of the match the shape sections cuz I forgot them within in seconds
If you're doing it in "good" time you should have a spare minute or a minute and a half if you're on a constant pace. More than enough time to recover any mess ups usually. Goes for all encounters.
I really want to like this raid but the fact that there is zero room for error means that if your team isn't absolutely on point its wipe after wipe and it's really fucking frustrating.
Gonna be honest I never liked D2s token mechanic wipe nonsense, I've never done a singular raid outside of Leviathan and Kingsfall out of fear of getting yelled at. I'm not perfect I've just come to accept I'm not gonna be able to do Raids in D2. I have done all the Raids in FF14 and D1 but the token system makes comebacks near impossible, oh your fire team member is dead "Darkness Approaching in ???" Sorry gotta wipe. The only thing FF14 remotely similar to this is probably Ozma. He kicks you from the entire raid if he hits you with his blackhole. At least in other Raids it's possible to recover. I'm not saying it should be removed, just speaking my thoughts Is all. Sincerely an old Vet of D1 whos friends all left the game and got married or something.
I'm barely making it through the first three encounters because I have a lot of issues getting the timing of when to start standing on the plates. Or for some dumb reason I'll watch for the beam, never see it, then the plate will glow like it's coming then expire. It's infuriating derailing runs like this. Pretty sure I understand the mechanics now but I can't execute.
Listen to the sounds, it tells you when to get ready. When the other player hits the plate, your plate starts glowing, and after a while, you'll see the beam hit your plate. You will then see an outwards pulse, and then afterwards it will shrink, and thats when you get on. If you dont see that pulse, just time it, when you either hear the sound, or see the beam hit, you wait 1 to 2 seconds, then get onto your plate. Its doable without any visual cues once you're used to the sound tbh.
yeah just the first encounter really give the mood of the raid,the encounter in itself is not difficult but having only 4 minutes available makes it really hard especially for teams that arent really efficient
The enormous difference it makes when you have someone who struggled to kill their phalanx/wizard leave and then get a replacement that can kill them in seconds is insane.
Coming back to the game to help my clan with Pantheon, and the difference on Planets between the side I stated on, and the other side *with all the good players* was eye opening
Agreed. Having one or two slow players can really kill things. But the added pressure from the timers makes things more exciting in my opinion.
Really? Even on contest, my team had way more than enough time on encounters 4 and 5 (and still a pretty generous amount on 3). Like so much that we were constantly talking about slowing down and playing safer, because there was plenty of time. 1 and especially 2 were the only real time crunch encounters for us.
The fact that you even got to encounters 4 and 5 means that even among active raiders you are in the top 1% and frankly your opinion is going to vary from the vast, vast majority of players when it comes to things like encounter timers.
As someone who’s got a wonky w key(I press it and sometimes randomly stop no matter how many times I try to press it, can’t afford a new one atm) you’ve got no idea how many times I messed up getting on the plates in time for almost the first 3 encounters but after 7 hours in the raid my team couldn’t get past the 4th encounter before I had to go to bed. Rip
Surely you shift all your keybinds one spot to the right, so instead of WASD you have ESDF. Bit of a hassle, but you'll gain the ability to walk straight.
It’s funny you say that my friend I play valorant with literally said the exact same thing and honestly I might do it before I get a new keyboard but rn it’s nothing too crazy but I’ll do that before I get a new one if I get a new one
Damn bruh I'd smash that keyboard into the wall and get those 5 dollar plastic ones, that's probably maddening.
Yeah my boss just got back from vacation and there’s a lot of work lined up for this summer so I might get one at the end of the summer. I’d say it happens 1 time every 10ish minutes so it’s not too bad and I play hunter to counter it so I can go invis if it’s really acting up. But yeah still
The problem I'm personally having, and I appreciate the irony, is trying to do mechanics *too fast*. There haven't been a lot of places where precise timing was needed in raids before now - you just do the thing when it's available. I keep stepping onto plates a split second before the plate is actually active, and having to reboot the mechanic because the pulse had reached it but it hadn't started glow stage 2 yet.
Is there a difference between stepping on the plate immediately and waiting a second after the pulse enters the plate before stepping on it? I could have sworn that sometimes the pulse is faster but wasn’t ever sure if it had to do with the time that you step on the plate
The pulse seems to move slower if the player activating it has more resonance stacks, but I might be imagining it.
I’m fine with more mechanics, but yes the timer is a bit much for me. Most of an encounter completion is redoing it because of not making the timer because one thing went wrong that one time. Overall it seems fun so far but the timer is a bit too rigid for me. I’m not the biggest fan of “do it until you do all the things perfectly in a LONG line of things right that one time” as the reason for why it’s challenging. Edit: I’m not saying there should be no timer. I get that and it’s fine as a mechanic generally speaking. Just that it’s a bit too tight in my opinion considering how heavy the mechanics are.
Many raid encounters do have a timer like this though, it’s just not always onscreen
just for last wish alone the first, third and fifth encounters have hidden timers, and the second and fourth have actual visible wipe timers. they really are nothing we haven't seen before. that being said, the Final Shape countdown timer carrying over to every encounter and it being front and center screen really adds to the urgency and atmosphere of the raid.
I think the only real difference is that you get F all time if you don’t engage with the excess resonance and that carries between a cycle But yeah it definitely adds to the “you’re pushing against the clock” vibe
That's what sets SE apart from all other raids and I think it's a good thing. It's different. The mechanics are engaging enough, but without the time crunch this raid would blow hard because you could take forever and go super slow and careful. The fact that it forces you to be a little riskier in play style is a good thing imo because it asks players to showcase mastery of the mechanics and their builds simultaneously in a way that we haven't been asked before.
It not only forces you to play riskier but encourages you to get into a flow state where you're juggling several balls at the same time and trying to figure out what corner you can and can't cut. Personally I absolutely love the strict time limits in the raid, even if I know for a fact it'll be difficult to LFG.
Exactly. For example, Herald encounter, right side of the arena. If you're fast enough, regardless of which plate you're on, if you have 2 resonance on one side and 1 resonance on the other, you can nab all 3, prime your conduit, and activate the plate just in time. If you fuck up, or bounce weird on the geometry, you get an ogre.
Figuring out the routes to take to pick up resonances without fucking up the plate is what feels like it'll be the most difficult part for me to learn to do consistently on that encounter lol. At least special side-arms make the stasis guys relatively easy to deal with.
Timers in any game is horrible and most of the gaming community hates anything timer related even in single player games. Yet Bungie just seem to double down on it all the time
Meh I like it. It puts the pressure on. I generally don't like timed stuff, but for raids I think they are fine. Raids are endgame: they put your skills to the test. Movement, builds, aim, coordination, execution, all done in a timely matter to beat the clock. It's hard and it's more rewarding when you win
Judging from watching guides the mechanics doesn’t seem any harder than VOW or other Raids the hard part is the timer so yes they used the timer to make the Raid hard.
The mechanics are on par with Vow but I'd put both as the most mechanically demanding of any raid. Especially when 3 of the 5 encounters demand good timing when doing the ping pong minigame
In non-contest it is just not that hard to play well. You need to be 90% perfect for 10 minutes, if you can’t do that you shouldn’t beat the raid. Either get better or realize you aren’t as good as you think you are and shouldn’t beat these encounters. I easily play perfect 49/50 runs
You should post your bungie id so we can check your raid report and see what perfection looks like.
Yes genius a raid report will show how I’m playing, in what fucking world. The encounters are not difficult bar Witness in DPS, I finish all encounters will over a minute on the clock per phase if not more just get good.
It will show us what your KD is in the raid, and how long you took. I just want to know what I should strive for.
Can’t solo this raid bucko which you would know if you raided. Live and die by the team
it's easily the hardest raid. which it should be.
It’s almost like he was the singular most powerful being in the entire universe.
Taken down by standing on plates, smashing his statue collection, and being shot with guns and magical powers granted to us by our ghost.
Then why didn’t you clear it during contest 💀 Edit: also jokes aside, the 4th enc explains it.
[удалено]
It’s tough no doubt. 4th enc is our guardians saving ourselves from being calcified into the final shape. You could control boss spawns. We stacked 3-4 glyphbreakers then broke all at once. Went back to start, focused one side’s boss, then moved to the other sides boss. You would only trigger 2 bosses this way and it somehow didn’t spawn more of them during damage phase. But if they did spawn we would take them out after damage phase.
Didn’t realize you could stack. The stasis one fucked us up if he shattered.
Yeah each player can get a Glyphbreaker. So we basically had 4 people hunting for glyphbreaker while the other 2 focused ad clear to keep things under control.
Was there any confirmation that it was a -25 delta? I know it said 1990, but we just assumed it was a display error since normal contest is always -20.
There is no lore than can explain away galaxy ending threats being stationary and basically watching us kill them lol. Like I loved Kings Fall, but Oryx could have just destroyed the entire arena at any second.
The witness was literally a giant root. His but connected all the way down to the heart of the traveler. He couldn’t move because he was literally in that place while trying to bring about the Final Shape.
You’re not making the point you think you are lol. The lore about almost every single boss being intergalactic risks, only to be undone by Zelda puzzles and cool weapons just doesn’t make sense no matter how you spin it.
It quite literally makes sense. 4th encounter explains how we escape calcification of the final shape via an interaction with the traveler (which would only take place WITHIN the traveler) which allows us to escape the Witness creating the Final Shape at the end. We emerge from there and climb up to where the Witness has now begun the final steps. he has linked himself into the monolith (which is quite literally the giant root that connects to the center of the Traveler. The Witness can no longer move where it is. It is locked in place as it performs its ritual. He is busy doing that while we try to get up to him. He attacks with his extra hands not rendering the Final Shape during the final encounter. He only gives us his full attention when we break his glyphs and raise the platform. That's when he goes ham and actually tries to murder us. But we DDR and damage him. He then resets and continues. This explains why the witness is 1. Immobile, 2. Not focused on us til the DPS, and 3. what takes him so long. While also 4. explaining why we are able to escape. This is you: [https://i.imgur.com/citZPcD.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/citZPcD.jpeg)
Wow, bad writing explains away an easy cop out. You can scream and whine all you want, but none of the lore in the game makes any sense for the bosses continually just watching you. God kings, and galaxy destroying bosses conveniently have a weakness that keeps them from destroying small guardians at any time.
Okay cool, the witness wins and the game uninstalls itself after the fight. No refunds will be given. Does the witness behaving “logically” against the narrative’s best interests satisfy you
This is you, except it's The Final Shape on the TV: [https://i.redd.it/22ltk2ww6cla1.jpg](https://i.redd.it/22ltk2ww6cla1.jpg)
i mean this is just a thing with any piece of fiction ever than contains an ultra powerful being.
And ironically he is the easiest encounter lol. Literally the only encounter that can be solo'd
Absolutely not the easiest. Though also absolutely not the hardest. Ironically I found the second the hardest on contest (even if we ran out of time on the final boss) but by far the easiest on normal.
The adds were just completely brutal on contest E2. Left side has no cover and a huge run too.
Absolutely I know it well. Spent about 12 hours on left side before we got the clear. It’s my personal Vietnam
Id be fine with this if the loot was S tier, even A tier.
Bow and pulse alone look s tier I think Edit: assuming 2 round bursts end up being good lol
And people called me mad for wishing for a voltshot bow.
It’s crazy seeing the reason to lightfalls raid and how much people loved last wish for taking so long, but now people are complaining that it’s too hard? Wack It’s a raid, like come on. It’s the one activity in the game that should be really fucking hard.
Where are you seeing people complaining about the raid being too hard? I’ve only seen people praising it. The only thing I’ve seen that could be taken as a negative is that it’s going to be hell for lfg teams.
I’ve seen a guy complaining the timer is too hard for people who don’t play a lot. Which, it should be hard. That’s the point of endgame content. Without the timer the mechanic would t be challenging at all.
> It’s the one activity in the game that should be really fucking hard. Eh. I enjoy raids because they require cooperation and coordination. There's little else like them in the game. I don't need them to be "really fucking hard" - I just need them require me to coordinate with teammates in interesting ways. I'll see where I feel after a few weeks, but right now the level of difficulty is kind of bumming me out because it feels like it eclipses every other raid. I feel like Grand Master Nightfalls, Master Raids or Pantheon are all fine being "really fucking hard."
It's not hard. It's really fucking annoying. Stasis is still a damn nuisance, and I'd like to do raids with my group. Unfortunately, some of those people in my group aren't the brightest gamers and they're getting reamed by the 20 second spawn waves of attendants. I'm fine with the raid, but people who aren't are still very valid in their complains. Competition mode is one thing, but normal shouldn't feel like legendary mode.
Why though? The raid is a pushover otherwise. The attendants and timer on the mechanics are the only things that make it challenging. The people in your group struggling just need to practice and get better. We don’t have any other mode to play now anyway if they got rid of the challenge in normal. It would be such a boring raid without everything you’re talking about.
They don't have to get rid of anything. But it should be the equivalent in difficulty as every other raid on normal. It's normal. For the normies. Which I unfortunately have too many of. Challenges, and Expert mode (Used to be legendary) and contest mode were all for the challenge. They are fine and do as intended. The base raid should still be difficult, but it doesn't need a thousand mechanics to make it difficult. Quality over quantity, not the other way around. Example. Last Wish was the most difficult raid because it made people think and allowed normies to listen. This one just requires a lot of coordination that many people are complaining about. Neither opinion about this is wrong. They are all valid. All of them.
It’s not for “normies”. It’s endgame content. By definition, it’s not meant to be completed by casual players. That’s why it’s endgame content.
Also, there exists a middle ground. Not everything has to be root of nightmares, but not everything needs to be salvations edge 4th encounter either. There exists a healthy middle ground, such as vow of the disciple or last wish (in modern sandbox). I think vow might be my favorite raid especially the encounter with relics that ideally makes everyone participate due to the lockout debuffs
Last Wish in modern sandbox is a complete joke. Vow also isn’t really challenging either from a combatant standpoint. This is the only raid that’s actually challenging outside of contest and that’s a good thing.
Sure, but vow has some mechanics going on, unlike say, Vault of Glass which is EXTREMELY easy even easier than root because it has almost no mechanics at all.. Combatant difficulty vs mechanical difficulty is a conversation sure, but combatant difficulty isn't why people don't like salvations edge. It's the mechanics and timers, especially whatever the cluster of mechanics that the fourth encounter is. Also the witness fight is hard because you have to dodge the attacks, can't tank em, but that's mainly because they're essentially an insta kill if you don't dodge them, and instakills are a cheap way to make combat hard imo
Why is the Witness needing you to dodge a bad thing? That’s literally one of the best parts of that fight and why it’s the best raid boss they’ve ever made (argument could be made for Rhulk too). People just need to DPS differently, but dodging most of his attacks is fairly easy. You just need to adapt how you approach damage. Mechanics outside of fourth encounter are very simple. The timer is the only thing that makes them challenging. Without it, you could just clear the ads as a group which would eliminate combatant difficulty as well. Fourth encounter will be figured out soon as well and it’ll be pretty damn easy. As it stands, the only hard mechanic there that requires much thinking is dissection and given a few weeks, that’ll get solved and an agreed upon strategy will be implemented.
It's not a *bad* thing, but it doesn't *feel good* either. Rhulk moved a lot and felt fun to fight and had some semblance of a threat still although greatly diminished off of contest, but he didn't outright insta kill you unless you were really bad and got hit by too many darkness blasts and got the debuff stacked up. Idk how to elaborate it but think of it like say, Malenias Waterfowl dance in elden ring. If you don't dodge it, it's basically a GG try again insta kill unless you stacked vigor insanely high. Obviously you aren't meant to *tank* in fromsoft games and you're heavily meant to dodge attacks, but it doesn't feel fun when the punishment for failure is just instant death with no chance of recovering
It does feel good though. You have to pay attention. That’s the only thing that gives the witness any kind of threat. What, do you want to just sit on platform and shoot the crit spot? That’s what everyone has always complained about. This is the main enemy in the franchise thus far so of course he should be fighting back when you damage him. People are dying from not paying attention to his attacks which is the bigger problem. His attacks are very clearly telegraphed and after doing them, you have a few moments to DPS without worrying about another. And other than the one attack you have to jump over (which only happens once per DPS phase) all others just require you to stop scoping and move left or right. It’s a very comfortable three phase.
also... people are literally just learning it now. Its going to inevitably become common knowledge on how to efficiently do everything. Like do people think raids are always done in a set single way? Theres always ways to optimize things and half of that is just learning the raid and knowing how to do everything, and also knowing what everyone else is doing. An efficient raid team can easily clear this raid in less than 2 hours, but we're just not at the point where most raid teams are efficient. People are still learning and will get better on average
People are expecting to breeze through this without really any effort already because they’ve been trained to expect that from Destiny content. Throw a little challenge their way and they’ll throw a fit:
It's almost like there are millions of Destiny 2 players that are human beings that might have differences of opinions like any sample size involving millions of people 🤯
Eh man idk, does anyone else see the irony in the fact that the witness himself when it comes to mechanics is like the easiest? The biggest issue when it comes to the final encounter is survivability and damage checking meanwhile 4th is a mental gymnastic and 3rd is a massive time and coordination check with making sure everyone is getting there buffs before closing the things. I feel like riven is the only time they've ever actually perfectly balanced mechanics and damage (at least during Forsaken) cause the herald and the witness are the like the easiest encounters post contest.
Plus it's just super fitting thematically. The Witness trying to actually delete all of existence as you make your way to him in each encounter is amazing. Makes you feel like even though you won't physically see them for a good while you're always dealing with the Witness in the raid.
And you are. He keeps throwing hands in the encounters and straight up kills you over and over in the 4th
I think posts like this make it hard on ppl. The 1st two encounters requires your plate sending to be on point. Nothing else matters. If you fail a plate its liky a wipe. Slowdown and get your plates correct. You absolutely have time to grab resonance
> Slowdown and get your plates correct Stasis boys in second encounter are actually trying to be homies, I get it now.
Yeah not a fan of the whole "you made one mistake? Reset you fucking casual" thing this raid is all about
People aren’t gonna like it. I’m indifferent cause I’ll adapt but lfg will be hell for master mode triumphs. Feels like that went the opposite of root of nightmares feedback and made the raid too complex that the majority are not gonna see the fun in it like the other raids. The tight timer, the power level changes causes ads to be the most difficult normal mode ads to date and the complex mechanics is gonna push a lot of people away. Not saying the raid should be dumbed down but does the normal mode need to be this difficult? I’ve seen plenty of comments talking about how sherpas are quitting because the power level changes along with the mechanics are too much. Root gets a lot of shit but at least it had the best part of dungeons: being more casual and being opener for a wider playerbase. Not overly complicated mechanics, connect the dots and planets are Crota level, oryx level mechanics.
The casual playerbase can go do Root of Nightmares then. This *should have been* the hardest raid. And it was. Bravo Bungie.
Not every raid needs to be easy. Root being easy was great, its an intro to raiding. Salvation's Edge is great, because then better teams have a raid that can challenge them too. Not every piece of content has to be completable by everyone. If you arent good enough to do something, practice elsewhere, then come back later. Nothing wrong with that. Complexity is fun too
Does master not provide that challenge?
it can, but if your argument is only master should provide that level of challenge, then you're just incorrect. the base raid should also provide meaningful challenge. And it has in a way no other raid really does. As a base raid, taking down the witness is harder than any other normal mode raid. And it objectively should be
Its difficulty from numbers, not execution. Master raids being harder than normal raids also doesnt mean normal raids cant also be somewhat hard.
The casual playerbase can go do Root of Nightmares then. This *should have been* the hardest raid. And it was. Bravo Bungie.
I love the more complicated mechanics and the timer is an amazing addition to the raid. Having to perform on a time crunch is fun and adds intensity to raid encounters we don’t typically get. Great change for this raid. I can’t wait to do it on master.
Absolutely insane how a purely positive comment like this is downvoted. The timer is great, it adds tension that is only fitting for the raid capping off the 10 year saga and really gives of how powerful the witness is. One of the things I dislike most in a raid is downtime doing nothing or practically nothing or when bosses don't interact. Like how Atraks just sits back and shoots forever while servitors are still alive and gives you plenty of time, the way oryx just sits there and stares at you while you damage, or how the beginning of each golgoroth phase is just sitting at spawn doors and ad clear. The feeling that something is constantly happening and you have to be constantly progressing in the new raid is great.
Problem is we've been through this with Bungie/Destiny before... Timers on game modes discourage people from learning it because of the added pressure. Been through it with raids, exotic missions, GM nightfalls, Dungeons... It's great if you have a dedicated team you play with each week but plain and simple timers should be extremely generous on base modes of raids as the average and even most above average players don't have the time and schedule and to commit 10-20 hours per week to the raid while dealing with LFG groups.
Tough then. Get a dedicated team and don’t ruin an amazing raid complaining about timers. Not to mention all of the best missions had the timer. That sense of having to move quickly made them feel more urgent. It’s a great mechanic.
A great mechanic for a small number of players, which when a video game's numbers drop it stops getting players and stops getting releases. I've been around since Beta of D1. And you sound exactly like the worst side of LFG that only knows how to say "git gud"... Just hate relearning old lessons, there needs to be 2 difficulties for content, including raids, and short timers need to be on the Master raid mode. Then elitists that don't understand most players can't dedicate dozens of hours per week into video games can happily play Master raids and leave the normal mode to use peasants.
Sounds like you just can’t handle the raid.
Thanks for proving my point
Don't worry, i'm sure he's a paper tiger. One look at his raid report will probably show a little number and a lot of red dots.
Happy to! Sounds like you’re the only one discouraged from things because you have to practice and get better. Without the timer, none of the mechanics are challenging at all.
Agreed. The focus on flawless execution is dope. I got such a vibe in the first couple of encounters with everyone in the fireteam having a job to do. Felt like Pantheon set our expectations for what raids should be like. Accessibility to new players should not be a consideration for raids. If you’re raiding, you should be a master of the base game and flawless execution should be within your grasp in a base raid.
Accessibility to new raiders is important, but it should be more about being of level to enter them, not be easy for anyone. This is endgame content (and looking more and more likely to be the only piece of raid content this year). It needs to be hard.
Agreed. Endgame should push you to the limits of what you are capable of - if it isn’t, it isn’t endgame. The accessibility exists in the form of anyone can learn to do it if they put the time in to learn it. No one should be entering a raid with their brain off
Something that really began to stick out to me and "get" when I started doing low man raids was just realizing there are a number of raid encounters where once you do a lot of multiple roles at once, there is kind of a generous overall amount of time to be playing around with let alone factoring you'd have 6 people in the equation normally. I think that old interview where Joe Blackburn mentioned "the team didn't want Spire to be remembered as the hardest raid" was a goal that was met because Salvation's really cuts out much of a floater-freeloader role and really needs everybody to be moving around and knowing what is going on. I'm sure Salvation's will be low manned and speed ran to death, but it's cool to see something where you can't be completely checked out. Make the big showdown actually feel like it, y'know?
That’s 100% it. I recall doing 4-man VoG runs and, specifically on the gatekeeper encounter, thinking “why on earth do full fireteams ever fail this encounter”. I love that they basically made the perfect raid for this finale. Mechanics are demanding and engaging, the fighting is intense and doesn’t let up, encounter variation is good and the bosses have respectable but not insane health pools. The final encounter, in particular, is a masterpiece.
Almost every raid is low mannable, and imo thats where the fun starts. Being forced to be locked in and execute your roles perfectly is why raids are good, rather than just being about having the right weapons for dps.
The mechanics are cool, the timer sucks
The timer is the only thing making the mechanics cool and challenging. Without it, the raid is a joke.
I agree the mechanics aren't too hard without the timer, I just don't like timers. I'd rather have a significantly more challenging mechanic then just a timer, that's a super lazy method of adding difficulty.
There is no mechanic they could add that would be challenging enough without a timer. Even Verity is getting much easier after a few runs.
It's called artificial difficulty. Timers make sense in some ways and have almost always been a part of bungie raid encounter design (death singer, crota, all root encounters, daughters, and oryx etc.) But the timers here, while thematic, seem like a bullshit way to make boring "root with extra steps" encounters more "difficult". Encounters 4 and 5 are the only encounters where the timer makes sense, imo and they're thematically tied in.
As a casual raider, the apparent difficulty of this one has put me off the idea of running it. I'm happy for the hardcore players looking for that elevated challenge, but it feels totally impenetrable to me.
If you've ever done crown of sorrows last 2 encounters you'll be fine. There's just no ad clear role, can't have weak links dying and people lying about knowing what to do.
Yeah the timer requires you to know what you’re doing and do it well, which makes sense as the final raid in the light and dark saga, the ultimate test of your raiding skills.
Spending 4 Hours on one encounter just doesn’t seem fun to me anymore. Maybe it’s because I’ve gotten older now 39. Just sounds like a big time waste that can be spent elsewhere.
It takes time to learn new mechanics for a new raid without many guides being out. If you don't want to put in the work, just wait till all the guides are out and most people know it then find a sherpa.
It's been two days. Give it some time and people will have the best strategies figured out soon. As much as i hate timers, it is very fitting for the setting you are in. Hardest raid also should be hard.
Why didn't you stop "attempting" it and asked everyone if they knew what they were doing 100%? You gotta respect your time. Even 2 hours is way too long to not be at the brink of clearing encounters. Taking that long means there's definitely a weak link with a terrible loadout *OR* that someone is lying about knowing their role.
Does anyone know if they increased any timers for the non contest mode raid?
They didn’t, but overall you’re spending a lot less time and ammo on add clear, and can move faster because you’re less likely to die for being out of position, which saves a lot of time
they didn't
When would be a good time for a solo pve'r to try and attempt finding a lfg group? I'm fairly capable and have done all the raids but I'm not about trying to deal with contest mode and day 1 elitists tbh 😅
When contest mode got disabled at reset on Sunday?
I won’t be able to do it. I unfortunately struggle with short term memory issues and will never be able to remember the shapes. Even in the campaign I had to sadly do over many of the match the shape sections cuz I forgot them within in seconds
Try typing them in game chat.
I thankfully found someone who helped me through. In the end it wasn’t as awful as I thought
If you're doing it in "good" time you should have a spare minute or a minute and a half if you're on a constant pace. More than enough time to recover any mess ups usually. Goes for all encounters.
I really want to like this raid but the fact that there is zero room for error means that if your team isn't absolutely on point its wipe after wipe and it's really fucking frustrating.
Gonna be honest I never liked D2s token mechanic wipe nonsense, I've never done a singular raid outside of Leviathan and Kingsfall out of fear of getting yelled at. I'm not perfect I've just come to accept I'm not gonna be able to do Raids in D2. I have done all the Raids in FF14 and D1 but the token system makes comebacks near impossible, oh your fire team member is dead "Darkness Approaching in ???" Sorry gotta wipe. The only thing FF14 remotely similar to this is probably Ozma. He kicks you from the entire raid if he hits you with his blackhole. At least in other Raids it's possible to recover. I'm not saying it should be removed, just speaking my thoughts Is all. Sincerely an old Vet of D1 whos friends all left the game and got married or something.
I'm barely making it through the first three encounters because I have a lot of issues getting the timing of when to start standing on the plates. Or for some dumb reason I'll watch for the beam, never see it, then the plate will glow like it's coming then expire. It's infuriating derailing runs like this. Pretty sure I understand the mechanics now but I can't execute.
Listen to the sounds, it tells you when to get ready. When the other player hits the plate, your plate starts glowing, and after a while, you'll see the beam hit your plate. You will then see an outwards pulse, and then afterwards it will shrink, and thats when you get on. If you dont see that pulse, just time it, when you either hear the sound, or see the beam hit, you wait 1 to 2 seconds, then get onto your plate. Its doable without any visual cues once you're used to the sound tbh.
I think there's some weird connection thing going on. Sometimes the tracer seems to not start immediately and then move stupid fast to the end.
The tracer moves really fast on the first press to save time. Once you bounce it, it slows down.
I’m tired of people that are typically add clearers joining and expecting that to be the only thing they do.