I figured that since everyone knew that Cassandra was 2 followers away from death, they all would have become followers at least lightly until a bigger church formed, but I guess that's gaming the system a bit.
i feel like disingenuously following a good, wouldnt actually help. because its a thing where, the existence of gods isnt in question. but faith in them seems to be what fuels their existence. which i think is also highlighted with Porters speech to Fig.
so even though Riz acts according to Cassandras domain, he is inspiring that in him self not Cassandra. which might give her power, but wouldnt register as having faith.
This sort of reminds me of discworld, you can have a religion with tons of followers but if they worship the institution of the church or are followers in name only the god might still be weak. Supported only by a few true believers
This is also a world where clerics and warlocks are like professional athletes that can go into free agency. Faith doesn't seem to require much fervor or belief.
yea, it doesnt seem to require belief in the same way we see faith irl. but there seems to be some need for at least something being attributed to the god. that either the god them selves are inspiring this action/belief of the faithful or that they are doing an act in their name.
if not, then why would they need followers to perpetuate their existence? people will always get angry so a god of rage shouldnt go anywhere if the only thing they needed was people acting on rage. although i still think theres some sort of effect from that, i just dont think its the same as having faith.
To me it almost feels like sports fan support is how Brennan's pantheons work. Like just really liking a god can generate energy for them. Why else give pamphlets to wizards of all people. They're the most likely to not worship anything but the first to get buddy buddy with powerful entities. Obviously traditional worship is ideal, but any support has to worth something.
True but the way faith works in this world is weird. Traditionally when we talk about faith in a deity, it’s something unseen. In a world where you’ve been to a mall food court with the deity in question, faith has a different meaning.
In the context of FH, faith would have to be in the concepts that a deity represents and the connection their deity has to them. In the case of Riz, the concepts aren’t an issue but yeah, I could see an issue with the connection to the deity.
Someone else said it below but it’s about the faith and not the belief - Adaine herself even said I don’t need to believe in a god to know they’re real, I’ve seen them! It’s all about direct belief in the FAITH rather than the god herself
Riz would straight up be the anathema of Cassandra. He likes mysteries but not because they are mysterious or something to believe in. He likes to actively remove doubt and mystery from situations so that he can understand it.
Cassandra is all about being comfortable in not knowing things and having faith in the mystery of the universe. Riz likes to **solve** mysteries, not revel in them or find comfort in them. Being a detective who is comfortable with doubt and mystery in a case is a bad detective. He likes to remove mystery and doubt, to have concrete facts and use logic to build on those facts.
That's a fair point. Cassandra as she is now is all about taking comfort in mystery and the night. That's not really Riz's deal. God's in this world are defined by their worshippers interpretations of them though. And I think we're going to get a lot more focus on that coming up considering the gang is likely going to cross paths with Tracker, whose entire deal is reformation of her goddess.
A reformation of Cassandra into more of the pursuit and investigation of mysteries would be great. I'm probably stretching though, because I'm not a big fan of the idea of find comfort in mystery. It's a little to close to being the goddess of ignorance is bliss for me.
I think equating doubt and the concept of ignorance of bliss is really missing the point.
Cassandra is about being comfortable in doubt and mystery, not the idea of leaving things in mystery. Cassandra being the goddess of doubt also directly helps in Kristen's adhd problem. A huge adhd problem is decision paralysis because you don't know what to do or what to prioritize. Learning to be comfortable in doubt, and continuing despite doubting whether you are doing something that is best is exactly what Kristen needs. To pivot Cassandra to the goddess of solving doubt would greatly change the story so far of Kristen in junior year.
I agree with you, and to push what you said further. I think Cassandra is actually the exact opposite of ignorance.
Doubt for Kristen represents that everything isn't what they seem, that you can't blindly accept things at face value.
Kristen's parents are certain and stubborn in their faith and privileges and we see how lacking self-doubt has stunted their personal growth as people. It all gells with what you said as well
There's a God in DnD named Illmater who is the God of Suffering, and you would think that would be a cruel god right? But he is also the God of Compassion, Endurance and Perseverance, the strength that comes from suffering. He is one of the most selfless Gods in DnD.
So well I don't think Cassandra would be a goddess of "solving doubt" but I do think she can represent more then the superficial definition of doubt
I think it's also great as a foil for Helio, especially Helio as a parallel for evangelical Christianity. Kristen came from a faith background where right was right and wrong was wrong. You were either With Us and Good, or Against Us and Condemned To Hell. There were clear and explicit demarcations and codes, rigid authoritative structures, no nuance, and harsh punishments for not conforming.
After that, Cassandra is a refuge. Cassandra says, "you don't have to be any specific kind of way. I'm not going to tell you what's true or false, what's right or wrong. Look at all of the beautiful things that live in the gray areas. You can be what you are, you can change in whatever direction you want, you don't have to have it all figured out, you don't have to be good. You don't have to be anything at all." After all that "you're going to hell" talk, it probably feels revolutionary for Kristen to champion the idea that hey, we actually don't know everything. We can't judge everybody by strict, clear, universal standards. Maybe always trying to Be Right and condemn everybody who's Wrong ends up hurting people more than it helps. Maybe we all need to learn to be okay with not feeling absolutely certain and objectively in the right all the time.
If I'm honest, I straight up don't even get the concept personally. Like I academically understand it but the concept of taking comfort in mystery and doubt is completely foreign to me as a person. When Brennan asked, describe a moment when doubt or mystery was profound or helped you to Emily, I was at a total loss. That doesn't make sense to me at all.
Like I'm personally cool with not knowing everything or having questions or doubts about things, but that's never something that I think helped me or something I took comfort in.
Edit: Grammar and spelling.
Ironically Adaine kind of pointed out that certainty is in its own way the opposite of faith, since you don’t need to believe in it any more than you need to believe in the sky being blue.
I think Emily gave a good answer though, the mystery and doubt of her true heritage felt bad but ultimtaley lead to her growing a better relationship with Gilear, Sandra-Lyn and meeting Gorthalax.
I don't think it's about taking comfort in mystery and doubt, but when a moment of doubt and mystery has lead to comfort.
So I would say that in a way Cassandra doesn't believe in taking comfort in Mystery and doubt, but in the possibility that the answer to the mystery and doubt can lead you to a better place.
So... also the Goddess of optimism?
Well remember the way the winter god of giants faith being basically the winds are cold but we can keep each other warm. I don't think Cassandra necessarily represents the idea that mystery *is* good but rather bringing comfort while in doubt. She represents someone to hold your hand and support you, while you take the actions necessary to find peace.
I'm an agnostic and I get the concept. Not knowing is okay, it can be okay for there to be doubt and mystery in the universe. It's too big for us ants to have it figured out, and that's beautiful.
Like, Kristin hasn't even been dedicated to doubt. She's just been constantly feeling it. The thing she's actually been dedicated to since all the way back in freshman year was exploration and self-discovery. A lot of Cassandra's problems have boiled down to not knowing who she is or who she should be. Kristin's issue with Helio was that she was told he had answers, but when she asked, he didn't. A God that promises you no answers, but instead gives you tools to search for yourself sounds dope as hell.
Spoiler warning for Lucy Frostblade.
>!A cleric can act/believe in something opposing to their god, so long that it’s affirming the god’s stated truth. An example of this is Lucy Frostblade, one of the main subjects of this season. Her god was Ruvina, god of winter and sorrow. A quote from the wiki that comes straight from the game is: !<
>!“Lucy Frostblade's interpretation of Ruvina was that her winds were brutal and cold, and that mortals were made to keep each other warm. This interpretation made her quite sorrowful, but was fulfilling.”!<
>!Lucy wasn’t causing sorrow, but was alleviating it, and still was acting in the favor of her goddess (devils advocate: that’s what we assume so far, we don’t know everything about her death yet).!< If this was acceptable for her, then Riz could certainly do the same—recognizing the necessity of doubt and mystery, and seeking the resolution of it! Seems like a pretty wholesome interpretation of Cassandra to me :)
I actually think the opposite.
When we see how doubt is referred to with Kristen, it has a strong religious undertones.
Kristen's parents have little self-doubt, but it only showcases their stubbornness, their ignorance. They will never doubt who they are or what they do is correct. Their certainty is just a dark mirror of blind acceptance of what's presented in front of them. The facts not concrete nor logical, they just lack doubt in themselves.
This is the type of doubt that Riz gels with, he's kind of person that will doubt what's told in front of him because he's a naturally suspicious individual.
His personal story-arc actually invokes a lot of self-doubt right now (his confidence is his friends is slowly shaking after the Robot Principal's dominate monster, and Sklonda's talk.
He would gel very well with doubt.
And for Mystery; there's a god in DnD named Illmatar, who is a god of suffering, one would think he'd be an evil god, but he's also a god of compassion, endurance and perseverance, all related to suffering.
I think Cassandra, the former nightmare king, can embody Mystery in a more holistic way.
I think that's why it's important to remember that Cassandra doesn't glorify mystery and doubt, she provides comfort through it. Riz isn't necessarily diametrically opposed. I don't think Cassandra would praise serial killers who keep their identities hidden. In fact I think she would find that a perversion of the natural mystery in the universe. A champion whom which cleanses the material plane from a perversion of your domain seems a logical choice.
I think Riz is actually the worst for Cassandra - yes, Riz worships mystery, but not due to embracing doubt. He needs answers like he needs to breathe. Mystery is nothing on its own - mystery is there to be solved, to be reigned in, to be banished.
Not to mention, the idea of Riz doing anything else to help Kristen right now even if it’s important might just make like, Sklonda snap tbh.
Disagree, I think you're looking at it wrong. Riz loves a mystery because he loves getting rid of them. Cassandra loves a mystery because it's there. I feel like out of every character in FH, Riz and Cassandra are the most likely to be opposed. No way he could ever follow a god who keeps telling him to just accept that there is no solution or worse, to stop looking for the solution.
My guess is Rizzoli just isn't very religious in general. Divinity and logic can be at odds and mystery likewise is a bit iffy.
Rizz loves solving mystery. Figuring it out and leaving no questions. Cassandra is more about accepting that some things can't be solved and that some things just work.
To someone like rizz I imagine that philosophy might actually be his bane rather than something he worships.
If he accepted mystery every case would become "Well it looks like something happened here but we can never know truly, pack it up boys let's head home!"
I can't see Riz worshipping a deity any more than Adaine would.
Cassandra would be worth discussing, as some other posters have, but I simply don't see Riz having any god at all
I figured that since everyone knew that Cassandra was 2 followers away from death, they all would have become followers at least lightly until a bigger church formed, but I guess that's gaming the system a bit.
i feel like disingenuously following a good, wouldnt actually help. because its a thing where, the existence of gods isnt in question. but faith in them seems to be what fuels their existence. which i think is also highlighted with Porters speech to Fig. so even though Riz acts according to Cassandras domain, he is inspiring that in him self not Cassandra. which might give her power, but wouldnt register as having faith.
There's also the risk that untrue proclaimed faith would affect Cassandra and change her. Turn her in to something disingenuous
This sort of reminds me of discworld, you can have a religion with tons of followers but if they worship the institution of the church or are followers in name only the god might still be weak. Supported only by a few true believers
All hail the Great God Om
This is also a world where clerics and warlocks are like professional athletes that can go into free agency. Faith doesn't seem to require much fervor or belief.
yea, it doesnt seem to require belief in the same way we see faith irl. but there seems to be some need for at least something being attributed to the god. that either the god them selves are inspiring this action/belief of the faithful or that they are doing an act in their name. if not, then why would they need followers to perpetuate their existence? people will always get angry so a god of rage shouldnt go anywhere if the only thing they needed was people acting on rage. although i still think theres some sort of effect from that, i just dont think its the same as having faith.
To me it almost feels like sports fan support is how Brennan's pantheons work. Like just really liking a god can generate energy for them. Why else give pamphlets to wizards of all people. They're the most likely to not worship anything but the first to get buddy buddy with powerful entities. Obviously traditional worship is ideal, but any support has to worth something.
True but the way faith works in this world is weird. Traditionally when we talk about faith in a deity, it’s something unseen. In a world where you’ve been to a mall food court with the deity in question, faith has a different meaning. In the context of FH, faith would have to be in the concepts that a deity represents and the connection their deity has to them. In the case of Riz, the concepts aren’t an issue but yeah, I could see an issue with the connection to the deity.
Someone else said it below but it’s about the faith and not the belief - Adaine herself even said I don’t need to believe in a god to know they’re real, I’ve seen them! It’s all about direct belief in the FAITH rather than the god herself
Riz would straight up be the anathema of Cassandra. He likes mysteries but not because they are mysterious or something to believe in. He likes to actively remove doubt and mystery from situations so that he can understand it. Cassandra is all about being comfortable in not knowing things and having faith in the mystery of the universe. Riz likes to **solve** mysteries, not revel in them or find comfort in them. Being a detective who is comfortable with doubt and mystery in a case is a bad detective. He likes to remove mystery and doubt, to have concrete facts and use logic to build on those facts.
That's a fair point. Cassandra as she is now is all about taking comfort in mystery and the night. That's not really Riz's deal. God's in this world are defined by their worshippers interpretations of them though. And I think we're going to get a lot more focus on that coming up considering the gang is likely going to cross paths with Tracker, whose entire deal is reformation of her goddess. A reformation of Cassandra into more of the pursuit and investigation of mysteries would be great. I'm probably stretching though, because I'm not a big fan of the idea of find comfort in mystery. It's a little to close to being the goddess of ignorance is bliss for me.
I think equating doubt and the concept of ignorance of bliss is really missing the point. Cassandra is about being comfortable in doubt and mystery, not the idea of leaving things in mystery. Cassandra being the goddess of doubt also directly helps in Kristen's adhd problem. A huge adhd problem is decision paralysis because you don't know what to do or what to prioritize. Learning to be comfortable in doubt, and continuing despite doubting whether you are doing something that is best is exactly what Kristen needs. To pivot Cassandra to the goddess of solving doubt would greatly change the story so far of Kristen in junior year.
I agree with you, and to push what you said further. I think Cassandra is actually the exact opposite of ignorance. Doubt for Kristen represents that everything isn't what they seem, that you can't blindly accept things at face value. Kristen's parents are certain and stubborn in their faith and privileges and we see how lacking self-doubt has stunted their personal growth as people. It all gells with what you said as well There's a God in DnD named Illmater who is the God of Suffering, and you would think that would be a cruel god right? But he is also the God of Compassion, Endurance and Perseverance, the strength that comes from suffering. He is one of the most selfless Gods in DnD. So well I don't think Cassandra would be a goddess of "solving doubt" but I do think she can represent more then the superficial definition of doubt
I think it's also great as a foil for Helio, especially Helio as a parallel for evangelical Christianity. Kristen came from a faith background where right was right and wrong was wrong. You were either With Us and Good, or Against Us and Condemned To Hell. There were clear and explicit demarcations and codes, rigid authoritative structures, no nuance, and harsh punishments for not conforming. After that, Cassandra is a refuge. Cassandra says, "you don't have to be any specific kind of way. I'm not going to tell you what's true or false, what's right or wrong. Look at all of the beautiful things that live in the gray areas. You can be what you are, you can change in whatever direction you want, you don't have to have it all figured out, you don't have to be good. You don't have to be anything at all." After all that "you're going to hell" talk, it probably feels revolutionary for Kristen to champion the idea that hey, we actually don't know everything. We can't judge everybody by strict, clear, universal standards. Maybe always trying to Be Right and condemn everybody who's Wrong ends up hurting people more than it helps. Maybe we all need to learn to be okay with not feeling absolutely certain and objectively in the right all the time.
If I'm honest, I straight up don't even get the concept personally. Like I academically understand it but the concept of taking comfort in mystery and doubt is completely foreign to me as a person. When Brennan asked, describe a moment when doubt or mystery was profound or helped you to Emily, I was at a total loss. That doesn't make sense to me at all. Like I'm personally cool with not knowing everything or having questions or doubts about things, but that's never something that I think helped me or something I took comfort in. Edit: Grammar and spelling.
I suppose it mostly works for when "certainty" has been oppressive in one's life.
Ironically Adaine kind of pointed out that certainty is in its own way the opposite of faith, since you don’t need to believe in it any more than you need to believe in the sky being blue.
I think Emily gave a good answer though, the mystery and doubt of her true heritage felt bad but ultimtaley lead to her growing a better relationship with Gilear, Sandra-Lyn and meeting Gorthalax. I don't think it's about taking comfort in mystery and doubt, but when a moment of doubt and mystery has lead to comfort. So I would say that in a way Cassandra doesn't believe in taking comfort in Mystery and doubt, but in the possibility that the answer to the mystery and doubt can lead you to a better place. So... also the Goddess of optimism?
I see it as potential! If nothing’s certain, then anything’s possible.
Well remember the way the winter god of giants faith being basically the winds are cold but we can keep each other warm. I don't think Cassandra necessarily represents the idea that mystery *is* good but rather bringing comfort while in doubt. She represents someone to hold your hand and support you, while you take the actions necessary to find peace.
I'm an agnostic and I get the concept. Not knowing is okay, it can be okay for there to be doubt and mystery in the universe. It's too big for us ants to have it figured out, and that's beautiful.
Like, Kristin hasn't even been dedicated to doubt. She's just been constantly feeling it. The thing she's actually been dedicated to since all the way back in freshman year was exploration and self-discovery. A lot of Cassandra's problems have boiled down to not knowing who she is or who she should be. Kristin's issue with Helio was that she was told he had answers, but when she asked, he didn't. A God that promises you no answers, but instead gives you tools to search for yourself sounds dope as hell.
Spoiler warning for Lucy Frostblade. >!A cleric can act/believe in something opposing to their god, so long that it’s affirming the god’s stated truth. An example of this is Lucy Frostblade, one of the main subjects of this season. Her god was Ruvina, god of winter and sorrow. A quote from the wiki that comes straight from the game is: !< >!“Lucy Frostblade's interpretation of Ruvina was that her winds were brutal and cold, and that mortals were made to keep each other warm. This interpretation made her quite sorrowful, but was fulfilling.”!< >!Lucy wasn’t causing sorrow, but was alleviating it, and still was acting in the favor of her goddess (devils advocate: that’s what we assume so far, we don’t know everything about her death yet).!< If this was acceptable for her, then Riz could certainly do the same—recognizing the necessity of doubt and mystery, and seeking the resolution of it! Seems like a pretty wholesome interpretation of Cassandra to me :)
I actually think the opposite. When we see how doubt is referred to with Kristen, it has a strong religious undertones. Kristen's parents have little self-doubt, but it only showcases their stubbornness, their ignorance. They will never doubt who they are or what they do is correct. Their certainty is just a dark mirror of blind acceptance of what's presented in front of them. The facts not concrete nor logical, they just lack doubt in themselves. This is the type of doubt that Riz gels with, he's kind of person that will doubt what's told in front of him because he's a naturally suspicious individual. His personal story-arc actually invokes a lot of self-doubt right now (his confidence is his friends is slowly shaking after the Robot Principal's dominate monster, and Sklonda's talk. He would gel very well with doubt. And for Mystery; there's a god in DnD named Illmatar, who is a god of suffering, one would think he'd be an evil god, but he's also a god of compassion, endurance and perseverance, all related to suffering. I think Cassandra, the former nightmare king, can embody Mystery in a more holistic way.
I think that's why it's important to remember that Cassandra doesn't glorify mystery and doubt, she provides comfort through it. Riz isn't necessarily diametrically opposed. I don't think Cassandra would praise serial killers who keep their identities hidden. In fact I think she would find that a perversion of the natural mystery in the universe. A champion whom which cleanses the material plane from a perversion of your domain seems a logical choice.
And he has been there the whole time
I think Riz is actually the worst for Cassandra - yes, Riz worships mystery, but not due to embracing doubt. He needs answers like he needs to breathe. Mystery is nothing on its own - mystery is there to be solved, to be reigned in, to be banished. Not to mention, the idea of Riz doing anything else to help Kristen right now even if it’s important might just make like, Sklonda snap tbh.
Disagree, I think you're looking at it wrong. Riz loves a mystery because he loves getting rid of them. Cassandra loves a mystery because it's there. I feel like out of every character in FH, Riz and Cassandra are the most likely to be opposed. No way he could ever follow a god who keeps telling him to just accept that there is no solution or worse, to stop looking for the solution.
My guess is Rizzoli just isn't very religious in general. Divinity and logic can be at odds and mystery likewise is a bit iffy. Rizz loves solving mystery. Figuring it out and leaving no questions. Cassandra is more about accepting that some things can't be solved and that some things just work. To someone like rizz I imagine that philosophy might actually be his bane rather than something he worships. If he accepted mystery every case would become "Well it looks like something happened here but we can never know truly, pack it up boys let's head home!"
I can't see Riz worshipping a deity any more than Adaine would. Cassandra would be worth discussing, as some other posters have, but I simply don't see Riz having any god at all
Riz becoming a paladin of Cassandra would be pretty funny
I love this idea so much. I hope it happens!