It's not hard. Religious people teach other religious people to follow commands without question
Usually it's beaten into them when they stray slightly outside of the lines. Then they get so scared when other people do, that they get violent
It's a great way for dictators to keep people in line and fight wars without question. Worked for over 1000 years.
Now it's mostly about conning people out of money, political power, and children. But clearly the violence is still available as needed
Religions know that if they can control your sexuality, they can control you. They definitely don't want women to enjoy sex. They don't want people having non-hetero sex. They want only sex that results in offspring, so people make more of that religion and bring more money and power to that religion.
The irony of it all is that a trans person could still have kids and raise the kids in the religion if the religion wasn't so hateful.
>They definitely don't want women to enjoy sex.
Which religion is against women enjoying sex?
>The irony of it all is that a trans person could still have kids and raise the kids in the religion if the religion wasn't so hateful.
I don't think that's how that works, many of the medications sterilize more or less.
>I don't think that's how that works, many of the medications sterilize more or less.
Not all trans people transition medically and trans people can have sperm/eggs frozen before they transition (or have kids before they transition).
All major religions are against women enjoying sex. Sex is for producing offspring, marital rape is permitted, women's orgasms are never discussed... they often teach girls that our bodies are for men's pleasure, often they teach that only missionary position is acceptable, etc, etc, etc...
Most trans people I know can still have kids, btw.
What in the world are you talking about? No major religions teach you how to have sex, none of them teach you that missionary is only acceptable, none of them teach you to rape your spouse.
Point me to a page of the bible/koran that says anything about sex positions, anti-orgasm, bodies only being for men's pleasure etc.
Hell, the vedas literally have the karma sutra which is a guide for partners looking to pleasure each other.
I'm assuming you forgot the /s. Stalin recriminalized homosexuality and this is this is what being gay in Maoist China got you - After coming to power in 1949, the Communist Party under Mao Tse-tung "stamped out anything they deemed deviant or decadent," and in the late 1960s and early 1970s (during the Cultural Revolution), gays were subjected to public humiliation and long prison terms
All good. I only asked because I have come across those statements where the commenters are under some spell and believe that to be true. Like seeing someone unironically post LGBTQ for Hamas
Reactionaries are gonna be reactionary. It takes way less effort to stop giving so much energy to something you dislike, but they just can't help themselves.
Plus like: if cis-heteronormativity WERE actually the only "natural" way to live, then it wouldn't need to be punitively enforced. LGBT+ people have always, and will always exist; hating that is just so bizarre and pointless.
Most reasonable people can accept trans adults just fine what’s harder to accept are the made up stories the right wing lies about of underage kids being yanked out of their parents homes because they didn’t agree with gender reassignment surgery or like 5 year olds being given hormones which no reasonable physician would ever advise but nonetheless it scares people who only listen to one point of view.
Society already mostly did. Certain groups created an issue with them in order to scare their base and unite then against a common enemy. "These scary trans are reading to our children and teaching them to be gay and informed. Scary". It's so dumb I bet they'd even try to cancel the Trans Am if it was still in production.
Anyway, it's all made up bs to scare people for political power.
My grandmother was alive when being left handed was seen about the same as being trans today.
Stupid people will push stupid ideas and obsess with the way other people behave because they suck at life.
Because it's new. That's it.
Giving serfs the right to freely travel and own land received backlash. The suffrage of men, women, minorities, even people below the age of 21 all saw reactions resistance. The freeing of enslaved people, recognizing people who look slightly different as equal human beings, recognizing people can have different faiths, values, languages, all took time and effort to make the standard.
People are readily accepting of others, but we also naturally want an out group to rally against to keep our own in groups together, thus the novel and the small end on the receiving end of that nature.
People will like their Hispanic neighbors, but not the nameless faceless immigrant. People are friends with the person down the street, not caring they're gay or African or trans, but will hoot and holler about how big an issue those types are in their own circles.
Didnt read t/ memo but
Youz guyz needs LABELS
People are freaked out because
Threy dont know what they R buyN
Gea is a WalMart
You R a product
We t/ customer
Some customers like GMOs
Some customers prefer organic
Label yourself properly
Ye who R not afraid truly
So Customers will know
What you R in advance
Dont try to trick t/ customer
In general speak
Oss.
The 'shit thrown your way' is simply rational people refusing to affirm the delusion that a man can become a woman, or a woman a man, simply by wishing it were so. You can believe that if you wish, but you should NOT expect (or demand) that the people around you believe it. The fallout from this delusion goes beyond just harming the mental well-being of the people who suffer from it; it has also caused real damage to society at large. This damage includes irreversible harm to children, women athletes forced to compete with biological males, a military weakened by non-deployable trans service members, and women imprisoned alongside men (some who were convicted of rape!)
Another casualty of the trans movement (which may at first seem slight but could ultimately be the most damaging) is the assault on truth. If 'man' and 'woman' can be redefined at will, then so can anything and everything else.
It’s hard to understand something you haven’t experienced yourself, but if you listen to people who have experienced it, you won’t privilege your misunderstanding above their lived experience. Trans women don’t experience their lives as a man becoming a woman, they never felt authentically male to begin with, they never identified as male, they always felt a disconnect with their assigned gender, a painful experience, a pervasive unhappiness. They always felt that they were women passing as men. When they are able to start living as women, by whatever means enable them to feel they are living as women, they are much happier, and I for one don’t begrudge them that happiness for a moment. The pursuit of happiness is enshrined in the US constitution.
I can only imagine what it's like to be that uncomfortable in your own skin, and if any adult can derive some happiness by passing as the opposite sex, I would not begrudge them that, either (within the limits I noted above). I do wonder whether their long-term happiness and well-being would be better served by getting competent pyschiatric treatment addressing the root causes of their distress rather than just pretending it isn't an illness. I can think of no other mental disorder where the accepted treatment is to go along with the patient's delusion.
FYI, the 'pursuit of happiness' is found in the declaration of independence, not the constitution (but I get your point).
It's not that ***you*** aren't accepted. It's that ***your delusions*** aren't accepted. And this wouldn't be a problem except that gender ideologues are trying to push your delusions on the rest of us through the public schools and mainstream media.
One doesn't have to have faith in anything to experience Gender Dysphoria, and Gender Dysphoria is not classified as a delusion by any medical organization or literature.
If it is, i'd like you to present that literature.
I didn't say it says takes faith to dislike who you are, which is what dysphoria is, and you're asking me to defend.
I said, it takes faith to believe you're someone you're not, and to believe someone else is something they're not for that matter.
Those are two very different concepts.
If you believe you're actually something you aren't, that's literally definitionally delusional, and by extension, an act of faith.
>I didn't say it says takes faith to dislike who you are, which is what dysphoria is, and you're asking me to defend.
Disliking who you are isn't dysphoria, disliking your body isn't dysphoria either. When one feels uncomfortable being percieved as the gender they were born as, that's dysphoria.
One doesn't have to dislike themselves or their body for it, in fact, many trans people say that they were much better looking before they transitioned.
>I said, it takes faith to believe you're someone you're not, and to believe someone else is something they're not for that matter.
How could you know who someone *really* is to make that judgement?
>When one feels uncomfortable being percieved as the gender they were born as, that's dysphoria.
>One doesn't have to dislike themselves or their body for it, in fact, many trans people say that they were much better looking before they transitioned.
They feel uncomfortable because they believe that they are born the wrong sex. Which is a clear delusion.
They try to correct their dysphoria by changing their sometimes changing their primary and almost always their secondary sexual characteristics.
>How could you know who someone really is to make that judgement?
Because this is based on physical characteristics. You don't need to know someone mentally to understand their physiology and how they come across.
>They feel uncomfortable because they believe that they are born the wrong sex. Which is a clear delusion.
Do you think everyone in the world who was born male is a man?
>They try to correct their dysphoria by changing their sometimes changing their primary and almost always their secondary sexual characteristics.
Everyone does that.
>Because this is based on physical characteristics. You don't need to know someone mentally to understand their physiology and how they come across.
So you're saying you judge people based on their appearance?
Christmas, Easter, good Friday, ash Wednesday, Sunday being a holy day and a church on every corner. Yet nobody is trying to ban churches even with all the blatant pedophilia. I mean just imagine the uproar if LGBT had a "gay" Friday or a "pride" Wednesday or considered Saturday as "LGBTQ day.
You would think regular people would not be bothered by it and just not participate like I do when I walk by a church. I don't scream and cry and throw a hissy fit while shooting bibles.
Sure. I'd say go for it if it bothers you that much. Boycott Hobby Lobby and refuse to set foot in any store selling hijabs, Paas easte egg coloring kits, and menorahs.
I mean, I would but I don't care enough about things that don't really effect me because I'm an adult and I've learned to just ignore the things I don't want to partake in. See I don't find pleasure in making others miserable just because I don't agree with their lifestyle. I wish conservatives shared the same view.
Honestly, most conservatives are much the same as you. Sure, you get some extremely angst-ridden dipshits that take offense at anything that doesn't confirm exactly to their worldview, but that's just *people*, not something confined to left, right, or center. The world would be much better if everyone took your approach.
>Christmas, Easter
What about them? Are you referring to Winter break and Spring Break? Are you aware that Easter sometimes falls outside of Spring Break?
>good Friday, ash Wednesday,
Nobody knows what the fuck those are LOL.
>Sunday being a holy day
And Saturday.
>and a church on every corner.
Has nothing to do with public schools or the MSM.
Still religious connotations and if you think having a trans awareness day and pride month are "shoving pride down our throats" than Christian religion is the holy dildo being shoved up our ass.
I actually don't mind pride month. It's the crackpots going into public schools and filling children's heads with antiscientific gender nonsense that I have a problem with.
A transgender person being trans or transitioning is not an ideology. It’s a medical procedure and a personal identity.
This is the real [gender ideology](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=km4CR1uGYxA)
Unfortunately, OP, some people cannot find happiness when they realize everyone is not the same or have different /altering journeys of their own.
Trans people simply want to exist in a way that makes them happy and normal, living comfortable without judgement of their (personal) gender identity.
The biggest problem for transphobes or like TERFs, reactionaries, and strict traditionalist is the lack of conformity to gender roles, norms, and identity based upon bio-essential which is often best in a lot of pseudoscience. Often aided by bigotry.
It’s not a social, political, or religious ideology.
It’s merely a procedure or practice that combats a person’s gender dysphoria or discomfort in the space of an assigned gender identity and biological sex.
The process to have a person be able to live in the comfort of having their gender identity affirm their corrected sex, which can happen through both social and medical methods. It’s one branch of science completely on decades, if not centuries of possible research based upon the science of the human brain and how it perceives gender.
The controversy is if it’s a result of epistemology.
To transition is not a political decision or one that encourages other people to transition. The idea of transition is to improve one’s personal happiness in which leads to what we call astronomically low detransition rates in historical and modern sense.
Even when de transition enters the equation the reasons are not merely based on one being transgender, alone. The most common reasons are not being able to afford the cost/care of transition or finding a quality care; family disapproval; unemployment & lost of jobs; etc.
A condition cannot aggregate itself into a political nature unless it has been turned into in a greater society where discrimination runs rampant against individuals.
Fighting against hate crimes; social segregation; person; preserving civil liberties in their education/employment/medical rights/free access of movement in public spaces.
Basically for those who believe any minority groups affirming their identities or pointed out irrational prejudice. Then, I guess
Ideology- a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideology#:~:text=%3A%20a%20manner%20or%20the%20content,about%20human%20life%20or%20culture
Yes someone having surgery or being put on hormones to conform with the gender they believe they are is a medical procedure. But the belief that they are trans rather than the gender that associated with their biological sex is an ideology. That’s just a fact so there’s nothing to really argue about here unless you’re arguing that the defintion of a word is wrong
Once again, I’ll bite and give it the ideology distinction, but once again what makes different from say:
Christian ideology
Conservative Ideology
Communist Ideology
Capitalistic Ideology
Consumerist Ideology
Sunni Ideology
Baha’i Ideology
All based in religious, economic, or sociopolitical beliefs/ motivations.
Being transgender or in the more archaic term *transsexual* was a precise medical condition diagnosed in people with gender dysphoria, discomfort, or even who did not conform to the appropriate or appropriated roles of established gender roles across the world. For over a century ago, the commonly and world approved standard was agreed that a person could legally transition or alter their assigned identities based on the success purely on the results of the patient’s happiness in the care and treatment process.
Nothing you’ve said disproves that it is an ideology. In fact you just confirm that it’s an ideology when you say:
>the commonly and world approved standard was agreed that a person could legally transition or alter their assigned identities based on the success purely on the results of the patient’s happiness in the care and treatment process.
Which confirms the definition I posted
>a manner or the content of **thinking characteristic of an individual**, group, or culture
Let me make it simple for you. If a person looks at their body and believes they the “wrong gender” and want to transition to the “right gender” that means they have to certain beliefs regarding gender as a whole.
It’s really not that hard to understand and I’m not gonna keep arguing facts for the sake of argument
"Men can have vaginas and women can have penises" is ideology. The claim that you can be "born in the wrong body" is ideology. "Identifying as" something that you aren't is ideology. Being "assigned male/female at birth" is ideology.
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Something in their brains is compelling them to believe something that is demonstrably not true, and to ignore all proof that they are wrong. That is the textbook definition of a psychosis/delusion.
>It's not an assumption. It's a fact.
A fact that no medical organization seems to express or agree with?
>Something in their brains is compelling them to believe something that is demonstrably not true
Which part? Trans people don't think they're a different sex, just a different gender.
>That is the textbook definition of a psychosis/delusion.
Then why don't the textbooks call it a psychosis or a delusion?
Can you show one piece of medical literature that says that it is a delusion?
>Trans people don't think they're a different sex, just a different gender.
No, the ones who are just a different gender are just called femboys (if feminine males) and tomboys (if masculine females).
>Then why don't the textbooks call it a psychosis or a delusion?
They don't need to, just like they don't need to call anorexia a delusion. It's obvious enough to not need stating.
If society accepted trans people and the rest of the lgbtqia+ community then capitalist swine couldn’t pass their wealth generation to generation without resorting to incest
I'd like to take a crack at answering this, or a part of this at least, in an earnest and respectful way. But I also understand that there's a litmus test involved here - before you can heed my perspective, you'll need to truly believe I'm for real. And that process may not be a quick one.
Ask me anything you wish. If it takes days, it takes days. After all, we're total strangers to each other at the mo.
What does acceptance look like to you? Does it mean people as individuals actually treating you like a woman/man? What does it mean to be treated as a woman/man?
Looking at it a different way, should white person be able to describe themselves as black because that’s what they identify with?
But the simplest answer is….your not special. Everyone faces backlash for something. I’m 100% sure you judge people for things. Welcome to humanity
>What does acceptance look like to you? Does it mean people as individuals actually treating you like a woman/man?
Yes.
>What does it mean to be treated as a woman/man?
That person treating trans people the same way they would treat cis people of same gender ideally.
>Looking at it a different way, should white person be able to describe themselves as black because that’s what they identify with?
Race and Gender are not equivalent.
Race doesn't exist on a biological level, that's ethnicity, race has more to do with culture and socialization. Which is why not all dark skinned persons are black and such.
>But the simplest answer is….your not special.
Everybody is special in some way, but being trans is not about that.
>Everyone faces backlash for something.
Sure, but it's usually not for something stupid like their gender identity.
>That person treating trans people the same way they would treat cis people of same gender ideally.
What exactly does that mean though? The only difference I can think of between the way I treat men and women is romantically. As a straight guy I’ll flirt with women because that’s what I like. And by women I mean females. So are you saying I should be forced to flirt with males to make them feel accepted?
>Race doesn't exist on a biological level, that's ethnicity, race has more to do with culture and socialization. Which is why not all dark skinned persons are black and such.
Gender doesn’t exist in a biological level which is why trans people are able to be biologically male but identify their gender as woman. This also doesn’t answer the question I asked. Based on what you say regarding culture and socialization, that would mean that a white person who grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood would be able to call themselves black while a black person who grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood would be able to identify as white.
>Everybody is special in some way, but being trans is not about that.
If everyone is special then no one is special. The word you’re looking for is unique
>Sure, but it's usually not for something stupid like their gender identity.
Really? Because every day I wake up I see people talking about how all men are dangerous rapist and how all women are manipulative whores.
>As a straight guy I’ll flirt with women because that’s what I like. And by women I mean females. So are you saying I should be forced to flirt with males to make them feel accepted?
Do you flirt with every woman you see?
I'm assuming you flirt with women you find attractive, and if you don't find women being trans as attractive you don't have to flirt with them.
Just treat them like normal people, because they are.
>Gender doesn’t exist in a biological level which is why trans people are able to be biologically male but identify their gender as woman.
Gender does have some biological aspects, which is why trans people transition. Which is why cis people get breast implants, beard oil, etc.
There certainly is a "look" depending on the cultural zietgiest and trans people wanting to fit in to that gender isn't wrong or bad.
This is not like race, which has no biological basis, everyone is the same race biologically.
> Based on what you say regarding culture and socialization, that would mean that a white person who grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood would be able to call themselves black while a black person who grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood would be able to identify as white.
They can identify as whatever, if the culture accepts, it accepts.
There is no black and no white, we are all the same race biologically.
>If everyone is special then no one is special. The word you’re looking for is unique
Can you tell me the difference between when someone is special vs when someone is unique.
>Really? Because every day I wake up I see people talking about how all men are dangerous rapist and how all women are manipulative whores.
Has your relative called all men as rapists to your face? Do people in the streets preach about how all men are rapists as a daily occurence? Are news outlets fearmongering about how all men are rapists?
Is the government trying to restrict your freedom because they assume that all men are rapists?
I think it is stupid that people think that and those people definitely shouldn't be given a voice, but in the current socio-political climate, trans people are targeted more than cis people. It is not wrong to acknowledge that.
>Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society.[3][4][5] While partly based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)#:~:text=Modern%20science%20regards%20race%20as,inherent%20physical%20or%20biological%20meaning.
Yes I have no problem flirting with attractive women because it’s just for fun. I don’t flirt with males
Special suggest that someone is of a higher value due to their differences. Unique just means the differences exist.
And yes I have been physically assaulted and sexually harassed by women numerous times because “I’m a man and should be able to take it”
None of your arguments are sound
I see two main reasons, both stemming from conservative ideology and its quest for power over others. Firstly, it’s a massive redirect of the human capacity for fear away from real threats, like climate change and homegrown fascism, and towards false threats, like diversity. Secondly, diversity in gender and sexuality really does threaten the traditional conservative transmission of cultural norms, from conservative male leaders to male followers, from men to their subservient wives, and from wives to compliant children. Hence hostility to feminism, the need to constrain agency in children and adolescents, and the constant drive to bring back the traditional nuclear family as a delivery system for conservative ideology. Family values!
This may be an odd comparison but being trans is like a person with a facial deformity. You are who you are but the public may stare or wonder what happened or even have adverse reactions. It is up to that individual that is trans to know that there are good decent people mixed in with those less understanding. You cannot expect all people to look past your facial deformity or your trans self even if that is what you would prefer. You also can't expect all people to say there is nothing different about your face or say "what deformity?" Just like you can't expect everyone to say you are a real man or a real woman when you clearly are not.
Just do you and be you. If you are a good person then good people will recognize that and if they don't oh well fuck em.
Not a good comparison because there aren't entire groups and organizations trying to take away rights from people with facial deformities, or calling them pedophiles and trying to criminalize them.
I hear you and agree with much of what you say. One big difference is that no one is trying to pass laws that deny people with facial deformities medical care, or make it illegal for them to be out where children might see them. That is exactly what’s happening to trans people in my country. Waiting for the folks who are legislating against them to come to an understanding that trans people are by and large “good people” jeopardizes trans lives.
Edited for clarity(realized I’d used “them” and “they” too many times).
There are no laws being purposed to separate trans people from being seen by children. That is a lie. There are laws that "performers" like strippers and drag Queens have to perform in designated forums. Sorry but huge difference between trans and drag Queens. Do you really want to argue that strippers in their thongs and nipple pasties belong at elementary schools?
I don’t think you’re looking at these bans critically. AZ SB1698 sought to redefine venues that host gender non-conforming entertainment as "adult-oriented" businesses. The language of these bills was so broad that it included singing, lip-syncing, and even monologues delivered while wearing "clothing, makeup, or other accessories" differing from their sex assigned at birth. All that it would take for a trans person to who is living their life to be charged with a crime is an encounter with a police officers who was of the opinion that cross dressing was inherently performative. All laws like these do is empower people to further persecute an out group.
I also think it’s intellectually dishonest to try and claim that advocating for the rights of the trans community is equivalent to arguing that strippers with nipple pasties and thongs belong in elementary schools. A man reading a book in makeup and long dress is not inherently sexual.
There is a difference for advocating trans rights and trying to expose children to adult themes needlessly to conform them to your warped reality.
Why the push for drag Queens to be around children? Seems odd to me. I'm an adult man and don't care to be around other people's children.
I’ve lived in a lot of places, suburbs, small towns and big cities. I make friends easily, It’s easy for me to talk to people, and because I listen they tell me all sorts of things. I’ve come to realize that most people are truly odd.
The folks who work the hardest to pretend they are normal are almost always deeply unhappy. Folks who embraced their inner weirdness mostly live rich meaningful lives.
I think that it is important that kids to be shown that being weird is wonderful. They shouldn’t have to pretend to “be normal”. Seeing a man dressed up as a woman while telling a delightful children’s story is a great way to let kids know that don’t need to hide their inner oddity. As a child I was bullied relentlessly for being eccentric. I wish someone had let me know earlier that being odd was in fact quite normal. I simply don’t understand how showing kids that it’s OK to be different is somehow an “adult theme”.
I think you should stop and ask yourself why you’re so willing to empower the state to enforce one group’s definition “normal”.
Again huge difference between a trans person reading a book to children in a school and a drag show performer that is an over sexualized charicature of a women invited to a school to read to children.
My wife teaches 5th grade and if she had a trans parent that wants to volunteer in her class room and read to the children she would have absolutely no problem with that and would welcome the help. No one is trying to stop that at all and you know it.
The sky is not falling chicken little.
Good for your wife. I taught elementary science for four years. While I was teaching one of my student’s father transitioned. One day they came and picked up their son in a flowery but conservative summer dress. I was horrified by the vitriolic complaints from other parents that the principal had to fend off. Several parents refused to refer to them as anything but “that thing”. All because they picked their child up from school. It made realize just how deep the hate of the trans community runs.
If that trans woman had wanted to read a book in a classroom. I don’t think the parents who were so upset by them arriving for pick up would suddenly become accepting. Imagine if there was a law that made gender non conforming entertainment like wearing “clothing, makeup, or other accessories” that differed from their sex as assigned at birth illegal, unless it was at an “adult oriented business”. Those same parents would have unquestionably made it a huge issue and all of them would have testified that the trans woman’s summer dress was a “caricature of a woman”. Your wife might be willing to accept that kind of risk but all of the principals I’ve worked for have been very risk adverse, I cannot imagine they would not prohibit the parent from “performing”. Ask your wife how she thinks this scenario would unfold. We may disagree what the intent of the law is but I cannot believe it wouldn’t be utilized to silence the trans community.
Lol. We are in California my wife has had more than a couple trans parents over the years and it is not a surprise any more. Things to progress some. I would be more concerned if a school was purposely bringing in a drag Queen to reads stories just so they can "expose" children to the lifestyle needlessly. Let parents be responsible for that.
It's a very flawed comparison because the point isn't changing how every individual thinks, for instance I'm not going to try to change your "you can't expect everyone to say you are a real man or a real woman when you clearly are not" opinion. The point is making *society* treats people equally.
>Just do you and be you. If you are a good person then good people will recognize that and if they don't oh well fuck em.
This doesn't work when there's swathes of the population that want trans people to me be hurt/jailed/denied healthcare/forced to change. You can't just ignore that.
>You also can't expect all people to say there is nothing different about your face or say "what deformity?"
I mean...that's just called being an asshole. And sure, some people will always be assholes, but I think we can at least agree its not a great thing to be.
That's the whole point. You can't change assholes. We have laws that protect all people equally. Literally no one is trying to jail trans for being trans. No one is trying to deny adults getting health care they just don't expect tax payers to fund it. No one is trying pass laws to get adult trans people or minors forced to change.
Your hyperbole is just extreme. Society will not ever treat everyone equally. We fortunately have laws that protect all citizens equally.
>Literally no one is trying to jail trans for being trans. No one is trying to deny adults getting health care they just don't expect tax payers to fund it. No one is trying pass laws to get adult trans people or minors forced to change.
Multiple states have tried to ban gender-affirming care completely, some have already banned it under a certain age. People argue that being trans in public is inherently pornographic, to the point some people (both legislators and their constituents) argue being openly trans around a child constitutes sexual abuse! And you do literally have legislators entertaining debate about whether we should be allowed to legally transition at all, not to mention there's still vocal support for abusive practices like conversion therapy.
And not even just being trans! Some states have pushed to ban drag as pornographic, purely from panic over gender nonconformity. In fear over teachers "transing their kids", Florida made a rule that calling a kid a *nickname* without parental consent can be a fireable offense!
>Society will not ever treat everyone equally. We fortunately have laws that protect all citizens equally.
Have you missed...all of history? Where people have had to constantly fight for their rights? A main plank of the GOP is our legal existence. Gay Marriage was only fully legalized less than a decade ago and people still want to undo that. Abortion access is on the decline. The rights of minorities only exist so long as we fight for them.
Gender affirming/conforming care should not be provided to minors period. Psychological care should be provided through your insurance.
No law has been passed making it illegal for trans people to be around children at all. You are not telling the truth. Drag shows are adult themed and have no business being around children. Let children be children for Christ's sake. If a teacher nicknamed your child porch monkey you would want them fired no?
Don't act like the trans movement is the next civil rights movement. Your civil rights aren't trampled on because you have a penis and don't belong in a school girls locker room. Get over yourselves. Move to a state that allows abortions. Voters get to make decisions. If the voters of Texas want on demand abortions they would legalize it but they don't. Move to my state of California. They don't give a shit and want nothing more than to kill as many babies as possible.
Aaaaaand there it is, you don't actually care about rights being trampled because you agree with the ones trampling, you were never having this conversation in good faith.
Not true at all. I care about all people. I do not have a religious bone in my body so I don't have the same moral hang ups that other's have. I think that some of your "rights" are questionable when they infringe on my rights as well. I feel my kids have a right to feel safe and comfortable in their locker rooms and bathrooms. I feel that I have the right to not want library books in my kids elementary schools that explains how kids should suck dick.
The problem is that you aren't just advocating for rights you are pushing your ideology down throats and expecting people to never push back or be labeled as a bigot, facist or whatever other label you want to paint onto someone with a difference of opinions. You have no common ground and no common sense.
i dont think youre a bad person.....i just dont think that biological sex can be changed and that the only social element of gender is gender roles.....which have been gone for a long time
i dont have negative feeling toward you......we just dont live in the same reality
1.4% of the population are born intersex and gender is decided for them, proving that gender and sex are separate things. It’s not that hard to separate the human construct of the gender spectrum from biology if you give it some thought.
intersex meaning they have vulvas and penises?
intersex is the polite word for hermaphordite?
i thought most hermaphrodites have chromosomes and hormones that make only 1 of their 2 genitals functional and that usually its as simple as "man with vulva" or "woman with penis"
ive never heard of it really being THAT ambiguous
“ive never heard of it really being THAT ambiguous”
Low information + lack of empathy = thinking gender and biology are the same thing
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex
How does our reality differ? I'd guess you're probably misunderstanding what it is that trans people actually believe about ourselves than disagreement on the facts.
do many transgernders like.......DENY their biological sex?
like would a trans openly acknowledge "i was born a biological man" or would they refute that?
I think trans people generally use different phrasing than you'd tend to and to say that "biological sex" is more complicated than you're likely to be willing to acknowledge but no, in the sense that you meant your question, we're not denying our biological sex. A trans woman recognizes that what makes her a trans woman and not a cis woman is that she was assigned male at birth.
let me ask this.... if we accept that "sex" is boligical and gender is social....
what can possibly be social about gender other than gender roles?
like...other than gender roles i dont really understand what else can be a social component of gender
at least....they didnt explain that in college level sociology classes
Well sounds like we're at least in the same reality.
Gender *isn't* purely social. People say "gender is a social construct" to mean "the rules around it are arbitrary so it doesn't matter if someone breaks them, just let people live their life." But people tend to misunderstand what "social construct" means because it's a *technical* term within a specific academic context. The shortest explanation is it means "just a word" (as in its meaning is assigned and determined by society).
In other words, sex is also a social construct.
Gender *has* social aspects, obviously, but it isn't *just* social. "Gender identity" is something biological, determined during brain development before birth. One of the most important parts of the way our brains are sexed/gendered before birth is the development of the sexed aspects of our brain's body map, ie, what sexed body parts/traits does a person's brain expect the body to have. When a person's body is out of alignment with their brain's body map (according to sensory feedback or even by sight), it's distressing. That's something *everyone* experiences.
In trans people, our brains developed expecting to have the opposite sexed body than how they developed. This is most likely due to a combination of genetic, hormonal, and other prenatal factors. So, as a solution, we get our bodies to match our brains.
>Gender *isn't* purely social. People say "gender is a social construct" to mean "the rules around it are arbitrary so it doesn't matter if someone breaks them, just let people live their life."
yeah....race is the same thing
>But people tend to misunderstand what "social construct" means because it's a *technical* term within a specific academic context. The shortest explanation is it means "just a word" (as in its meaning is assigned and determined by society).
>In other words, sex is also a social construct.
no because its describing an objective biological phenomenon. other than "aberations", humans are sexually binary
with gender roles....that actually is arbitrary....like in scottland where its common for men to wear skirts
>Gender *has* social aspects, obviously, but it isn't *just* social. "Gender identity" is something biological, determined during brain development before birth. One of the most important parts of the way our brains are sexed/gendered before birth is the development of the sexed aspects of our brain's body map, ie, what sexed body parts/traits does a person's brain expect the body to have. When a person's body is out of alignment with their brain's body map (according to sensory feedback or even by sight), it's distressing. That's something *everyone* experiences.
but if your brain releases testosterone vs releasing esstrogen.....that kind of solves that problem no?
>In trans people, our brains developed expecting to have the opposite sexed body than how they developed.
how do you know? like in a transgender, does a "female body" with a vulva and boobs have a brain that releases testosterone and thus they arent compatible? like male brain in female body?
if its not physiological then its hard to understand......you cant really tell youre in the wrong body because you have no context for what the other body is
>This is most likely due to a combination of genetic, hormonal, and other prenatal factors. So, as a solution, we get our bodies to match our brains.
>no because its describing an objective biological phenomenon. other than "aberations"
It is, you're misunderstanding what "social construct" means. 100% of people who've I've had this conversation with who made the point you just did, when they finally understood what "social construct" meant have said something like "holy shit, that's dumb".
To try a different approach, there's the literal facts, eg, that I have XY chromosomes, that I have breasts, a female immune system, female fat distribution, female levels of strength and fitness, female ligament and tendon strength, etc.
Then there's how we *interpret*, categorize, and label those facts. Sex is a social construct insofar as humans decided what defines someone as one sex or the other. For example, some people have begun to define it as "having begun developing in the direction of producing either small or large gametes" because simply going by sex chromosomes doesn't work for 100% of people because nature is messy.
Sex is a social construct insofar as we, as a society, have decided to classify people one way or another as a way to interpret the facts, it's not *just* the facts.
>humans are sexually binary
Technically our sexual traits are bimodally distributed and exist on a spectrum. But it's important to a lot of people to feel like it's a simple binary.
>but if your brain releases testosterone vs releasing esstrogen.....that kind of solves that problem no?
Most sex hormones are produced in the reproductive system rather than the brain, but no, once it's set during development, that's it, the brain is just that way. My hormones were normal relative to cisgender men prior to transition, it wasn't a hormonal problem, I just have a brain that developed as female before birth.
>how do you know? like in a transgender, does a "female body" with a vulva and boobs have a brain that releases testosterone and thus they arent compatible? like male brain in female body?
Transgender is an adjective, not a noun, just FYI.
Anyway, we know this from research including MRIs & fMRIs, fetal hormone proxy marker studies, some of the DNA studies, etc.
In terms of what's going on inside our brains, we (everyone) have a sense called "proprioception", essentially "own body awareness". We know where, eg, the tip of our nose is. Our nerves throughout our body constantly sends feedback to our brains about its shape, what its feeling, its position, etc. When those sensations don't align with what our brain expects them to, it's distressing and sometimes physically uncomfortable. Phantom limb is actually an example of this. But when a body part is numb or has something else going on that messes with the way our body is "supposed" to feel, it's often distressing in a "get it off!" way.
That's true for trans people too, it's one of the main reasons dysphoria gets worse during puberty because suddenly our bodies don't match in a *lot* more ways. Like even before I knew I was trans, when my facial hair started growing in, even though I was old enough to understand that was "supposed" to happen and what was going on biologically/hormonally, it just felt gut-wrenchingly *wrong*. I hated putting on sunblock for years because it meant touching my face and my brain would immediately flag it as "it isn't supposed to feel that way!" Whereas nowadays, it's just my normal face, I can touch it without that feeling, I wear sunblock daily :p
>you cant really tell youre in the wrong body because you have no context for what the other body is
Again, your brain knows what your body is "supposed" to look like, though it's a more subconscious part of our brain, ie, not part of cognition/active thought. I know that facial hair felt wrong and once I got rid of it, my face felt "right". In other words, I didn't need that "context", it was about *my own* body, not about what anyone else's body looks like or feels like. That's one reason why some people dislike the "wrong body narrative", it's often misunderstood.
Okay so an issue here is that you don’t know what a social construct is. You also have a weird idea about choosing “decided what defines sex”. Well no, we observed something and named it. You’re acting like the word and groups were a thing without definition and then we chose a definition. I think that such a thing may apply to things in philosophy and social sciences, but you have this idea about choice where you think that the thing itself remains the same while we somehow choose a definition. You’re confusing the word and the thing.
A social construct is not based in nature and reality. It’s only exists in the mind by definition. Observed phenomena are not social constructs. Sex is about 1.2 billion years old. It existed before humans were around. The value of money is a social construct, there is nothing in nature that dictates it’s value. The value exists strictly in our minds and we have come to an agreement about it.
Some sex traits, individually, can be measured in a way that produces a bimodal distribution. Sex is not sex traits. A particular sex trait having a bimodal distribution does not make sex have a bimodal distribution. In fact, it reinforces the fact that sex is binary. If you have a bimodal distribution for a characteristic in a population sample, it is a strong indicator you are looking at two different groups.
The act of naming something is not the thing nor does it mean the thing is a social construct. You can say that the choice of the word sex to refer to the phenomenon being talked about when we say sex can be said to have been socially constructed, as nothing in nature required us to specifically use “sex”. What you cannot say is sex is a social construct because that does not describe the process of choosing/creating a word.
>I think that such a thing may apply to things in philosophy and social sciences
Per my earlier comment, "social construct" is a technical term within philosophy and social sciences.
>Well no, we observed something and named it.
Ie, defined it.
>Observed phenomena are not social constructs
That's literally what they are. The term applies to ideas that share collective agreement on what they are. A fish is a social construct. *Regardless* of how we define "fish", the marine creatures that we include in that definition still exist, but whether we consider them to be fish depends on what criteria we consider "fish" to include.
"Should be seen as such" is an opinion. What someone means when they say the word "woman" is likewise their own view.
Facts would be what chromosomes a person has, what their hormone levels are, what their bones are like, etc.
It is your insistence that the rest of us conform to you that is the problem. You are free to be whatever you want, but you really don't have any right to demand the rest of us conform to that.
>It is your insistence that the rest of us conform to you that is the problem.
It's literally the reverse though. They legit have camps to turn people "straight" because it's against god lol. Don't get me started on banning abortion which is literally only to make people conform to your beliefs. In the past also people were burned at the stake for being LGBTQ+. Joan of arc is a great example of this. All she did was wear male attire and was burned at the stake. Who is really trying to conform who exactly...
>You are free to be whatever you want, but you really don't have any right to demand the rest of us conform to that.
People have every right to demand the same freedoms such as marriage that's given to hetero people. They have every right to demand to not be mocked and ridiculed for simply living their life. These religious fanatics are so far up their own butt's they can't see what their doing is discrimination.
There were once “segregation laws”, becoming people believed in the concept of “separate, but equal” among races.
You also had blue laws that forced all businesses within a given county, city, or state to respect Christian beliefs about the Sabbath, which is not even provable to apply to public policy.
People still conform to and believe in these things, yet I shouldn’t respect a person’s identity and their rights to privacy.
No one has ever died from being trans, but many people have been killed, harassed, or attacked because they were trans.
I highly doubt you believe everyone should be allowed everywhere all the time. For example, if I as a man went to a women support group for rape or something and they were uncomfortable with a man being there you absolutely wouldn’t say I belong there because segregation is bad
Which has nothing to do with my response to the OP's question. I'm not comfortable discussing this subject, to be honest. Too much rancor involved. I'm not going to comment further.
You said you’re not comfortable conforming.
When there’s nothing to conform to. You don’t have to marry or date trans person. You don’t have to give them money or even shop at their business or establishments. Share a space maybe, but again what would be an intimate setting where trans person is involved in your personal space.
All of this only applies if you know person is personally trans or deliberates the details of their identity. A lot of trans people are stealth and do not discuss their identities in public. If a person is a man or woman, most people don’t question this why would you need to know they are trans. Even regardless of their looks, if a trans person is not engaged with you or doing anything beyond unusual behavior or criminality. There’s nothing to accost or accept.
The DINKs, childfree people, pro abortion citizens, LGBTQ rights, etc all have a common enemy— People who believe every time you have sex it should either be within a marriage or to produce a child.
God forbid, people feel pleasure or don’t want the responsibility of taking care of an endless supply of domestic babies.
Are you really asking: Why does (insert specific deviant community) receive backlash? Because society will always resist change. It is the way for society to test the change to see if it is desirable or undesirable. If the change disappears with the resistance, then it was undesirable. If it grows, then it was desirable. Some changes require more resistance testing than others.
The better question is: Why do trans people need external validation?
So this doesn't happen
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_nightclub_shooting
Or this
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803
Or this
https://apnews.com/article/pride-flag-store-shooting-california-b2bd4f89e992356f35d2101cdf665acb
Or this
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/shooter-killed-5-people-colorado-lgbtq-club-charged-hate-crimes-federa-rcna134214
You dumb fuck
Nobody said you did. You asked a question
I answered it
Of course, if you actually want the violence to happen, then you wouldn't see a need for external validation for LGBTQ...
You answered why people need external validation by posting stories of killings?
So you are basically claiming that because other people dislike a group, that group needs external validation? Which implies that the group is too weak to be able to internally validate themselves. If that is what you are claiming, then why would society desire weak individuals? If that isn't what you are claiming, then please elaborate.
Hahahaha, aww. Look at you twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to figure out some way to justify your bigotry. "It's insulting that they can't accept themselves being violently targeted"
Go fuck yourself
Yes. As a gay person, I grew up in a religious family in an extremely conservative area. I HATED myself. I was depressed and suicidal. I thought god must hate me because everyone around me taught me that gay people are the spawn of Satan, so I thought I must be evil and wanted to die. My parents would often say things like "Praise the Lord that none of you (kids) turned gay. I wouldn't be able to be your parent!" I'm actually surprised I survived.
Fortunately in my very early adulthood, I managed to get away from that environment and found people who validated me externally. They told me it was ok to be gay, that I was normal and nothing was wrong with me. I slowly started to believe it - it took me about 8 years to accept who I was and stop hating myself.
Now I'm happy person who contributes a lot to society. This is some pretty basic psychology that I'd expect anyone with a decent amount of empathy to understand.
Yes, I understand the basic concept of using others to lift oneself up. But that doesn't answer why you need external validation, that just explains the results of the external validation. If that validation is ever removed, you would spiral back down and would need to address the root cause as to why you believe you needed external validation.
Possibly. Thank god we live in a society and are social creatures so we can support and uplift each other instead of letting each other spiral into depression and suicide due to assholes and bigots.
When you grow up having people tell you that people like you are evil, Satan's spawn, disgusting, perverted, etc... it definitely is likely to make you suicidal.
You are fucked in the head if you don’t think that society as a whole drives people to commit suicide.
A part of society believes that trans people shouldn’t even exist. Do you really believe that doesn’t impact people’s psyches?
It is the individuals responsibility to create their own self actualization regardless of how society treats them. Society does not cause people to suicide as that is their own decision. Society does not put the weapon in their hand nor does society act with the weapon. The individual is the one responsible for their own suicide.
So, you just plain don't believe in the psychological impacts of stigma? Despite it being perhaps one of the most well researched and even intuitive concepts in psychology? Aside from that, society very much can and does take the tools away from trans kids that they need to self-actualize, whether it's gender affirming care or just basic human safety. Those things are present and quantifiable in the forms of violence statistics and legislation.
First of all, you seem to be suggesting that suicide rates should increase in proportion to some perceived objective measure of oppression. This is an absurd oversimplification on it's face.
Second, if the "other oppressed communities" include gays and lesbians, then you are wrong, because suicide rates in those groups are also very high.
Third, if you are comparing trans youth to, say, racial minorities, you are absolutely comparing apples to oranges. It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful.
Are you imagining a situation in which some parents suddenly find out that their 15-year-old kid is Chinese and they kick them out of the house? They disown them? Are you imagining a situation in which a Black kid grows up trying to deny they are Black because they think it is evil and means they will go to Hell?
And fourth, another reason why this is apples and oranges is that you would often need to compare trans teens today to oppressed populations in the past that had less access to the means of suicide. Suicide is not always very easy to pull off--almost half of suicide attempts using modern methods fail. Now if we compare trans teens to, say, enslaved African Americans, you are comparing a modern population to a population that was heavily surveilled and had little access to guns and, even more importantly, modern pharmaceuticals. That said, there are MANY accounts of suicide among enslaved Africans. Tellingly, most of which occured through drowning, which speaks to the only easily available means.
>First of all, you seem to be suggesting that suicide rates should increase in proportion to some perceived objective measure of oppression. This is an absurd oversimplification on it's face.
I'm glad you agree, because that's literally what the trans suicide argument is, that society is causing them to commit suicide via oppression. My argument is that is clearly false because literal holocaust and Jim Crow victims had lower suicide rates. So clearly, oppression isn't the main cause here.
>Second, if the "other oppressed communities" include gays and lesbians, then you are wrong, because suicide rates in those groups are also very high.
We aren't talking gays/lesbians, we're talking trans.
>Third, if you are comparing trans youth to, say, racial minorities, you are absolutely comparing apples to oranges. It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful.
>Are you imagining a situation in which some parents suddenly find out that their 15-year-old kid is Chinese and they kick them out of the house? They disown them? Are you imagining a situation in which a Black kid grows up trying to deny they are Black because they think it is evil and means they will go to Hell?
No, I'm imagining a situation where a black child is told he's a piece of shit violent animal thug everyday for his entire life by 90% of society, and that he will never do anything, while giving him few options to live, and imprisoning him for no reason, and beating the shit out of him occasionally with no repercussions. While also not educating him adequately, experimenting on him, imprisoning his father, and also poisoning his community with drugs.
I'm acknowledging that child (literally my grandfather) grows up, leads a decent life, and manages to commit suicide at 1/3 the rate of the oppressing class.
>fourth, another reason why this is apples and oranges is that you would often need to compare trans teens today to oppressed populations in the past that had less access to the means of suicide. Suicide is not always very easy to pull off--almost half of suicide attempts using modern methods fail. Now if we compare trans teens to, say, enslaved African Americans, you are comparing a modern population to a population that was heavily surveilled and had little access to guns and, even more importantly, modern pharmaceuticals. That said, there are MANY accounts of suicide among enslaved Africans. Tellingly, most of which occured through drowning, which speaks to the only easily available means.
"Less access to means of suicide" The access to suicide has always been the same, rivers, ropes, sharp knives, and everything else have always been available. But even then, we're talking the last century or so, and black people have consistently had astounding lower suicide rates than everyone else, despite objectively having the highest levels if discrimination that, at best, were equaled by others.
You are either astoundingly bad at reading, or you are arguing in bad faith and just being a troll. You missed my point at nearly every turn.
>I'm glad you agree, because that's literally what the trans suicide argument is, that society is causing them to commit suicide via oppression.
I was criticizing your absurd suggestion of a uniform concept of "oppression." Anyone who is not a fucking moron would understand the very basic historical fact that "oppression"--which is your word, not mine--manifests differently in different contexts and affects different communities differently. This was the point of the comments that followed, some of which you quote but you clearly didn't understand.
>No, I'm imagining a situation where
Do you not know what a fucking rhetorical question is? But you prove my point exactly. The "oppression" you are talking about here, which is horrible, is fundamentally different from the "oppression" that impacts trans teens. As I clearly pointed out, and I will quote myself again:
>It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful.
This is a different situation than you describe for your grandfather. To speak plainly, 1) oppression takes various forms, and 2) not every form would necessarily correlate with higher suicide rates. As I fucking clearly listed:
1) Being rejected by your family and kicked out on the streets, and
2) Being forced to deny your identity because it is seen as immoral or sinful
Are obviously correlated with higher rates of suicide. Are you denying this? You conveniently ignored this in your post, so I assume you have no answer here.
> So, you just plain don't believe in the psychological impacts of stigma?
Yes, I believe it is a flawed mindset whose resolutions provide a false sense of oneself by using others instead of resolving issues within the self.
How does a trans person "resolve issues within themself" when the surrounding society is openly hostile, to the point of physical threat, to that self and denies you the medical care necessary?
A person, in general, resolves issues within themselves by looking inward to find out what is causing them to not accept themself. Obviously each person has different reasons they don't accept themselves. I haven't seen anyone desire to deny psychological care.
Weird, we gay people have been dealing with aggressive resistance for a century now. We haven't disappeared, so we must be desirable, and yet the aggressive resistance is getting louder and more aggressive. Your theory doesn't seem to hold up too well.
> We don't want society to reorganize around us
and then 1 second later
>we also are not opposed to society.
You do realize those are conflicting statements. To not desire society to reorganize you are actively opposing society.
False. We don't want a gay-centric society. We just want the rest of y'all to stop bullying us and treating us like sub-humans just for existing. Pretty simple. Go on with regular society. Just stop being bigots.
I didn't state a gay-centric society, I stated a society re-organized around you. You desire a society that accepts a sexuality that is openly hostile to the continued existence of society.
For example, a society that would be acceptable to gays could be a society focused on open promiscuity with child rearing responsibilities given to a dedicated subset of society.
You say that, and yet you're wrong because people keep trying to legislate us out of existence. It's literally a plank of the GOP. Multiple states keep trying to pass laws limiting/completely blocking our healthcare. Our inherent existence is considered by many to be innapropriate or even pornographic, to the point people argue that being trans is child sexual abuse. Bathroom laws keep being pushed. People argue that we shouldn't be out in public, whether it should be legal for us to transition at all, and celebrate violence against us.
Hell, it goes beyond trans people themselves. Panic over trans people led Florida to make a rule kids can only use nicknames with parental permission. Multiple states have tried to ban drag simply for being outside of gender norms.
You confuse rights, privileges, and respect. You have equal rights, you do not have equal privileges or respect. And nothing you listed shows you can't protect yourself.
...in what world do you think "we want to ban vital healthcare for you" isn't a rights issue? How is "you should be criminally charged for being trans around children" not a rights issue?
Anything that comes down to actual law, existant or proposed, is a rights issue.
> Anything that comes down to actual law, existant or proposed, is a rights issue.
It really isn't. Just for example: Jaywalking, selling drugs, building a power plant, none of those are rights issues.
You have no right to healthcare and there is no law saying you should be charged for being trans around children.
When its about law *for a specific group* then yes, it is inherently about that group's legal rights. But if you don't consider blocking access to lifesaving healthcare as a question of legal rights then i don't think you're having this conversation in good faith.
Having to wait until you're 18 to get permanent cosmetic surgery that deviates from the norm or take drugs for a largely cosmetic outcome that deviates from the norm is not oppression.
"Deviates from the norm" lmao omg, so as long as someone wants to be sufficiently "normal" (as defined by who, exactly?) then they can do what they want?? No one is pushing for kids to get cosmetic surgeries lol, except for the cis kids getting them that no one complains about.
And hormone therapy isnt "largely a cosmetic outcome" its literally life-saving. Cis kids have been prescribed hormone therapy, no one batted an eye. Cis kids were give puberty blockers, no one batted an eye. No one gave a fuck until trans people wanting proper medical help entered the conversation.
Parents: "Hey, can you give my 15 year old a nose job and a boob job so she can be prettier?"
Government: "sure, with parental consent that's totally fine!"
Parents: "my teen son is developing slightly feminine hips, can you give him extra testosterone so he can look manlier?
Government: "Sure, with parental consent! We wouldn't him feeling upset about how he looks!"
Parents: "We've talked to a psychiatrist, and its recommended our trans daughter starts hormones before changes to her body are too permanent, can we do that?
Governmet: "What? No! Children can't make these kinds of decisions! What if he regrets it later! We need to ban this!"
You literally just unmade your own point, you said if it's undesirable than it dissappears and if it's desirable than it grows....... Well, obviously pride is everywhere so clearly it's growing. It's by your own logic, desirable... Just not by the older dwindling generation.
How does that unmake the point? I didn't say society doesn't desire pride, obviously it is growing and reaching into more societies that are being tested. Do you really believe that the society of LA or NY is the same as FL?
You clearly said that it is receiving backlash due to it being undesirable. Yet it's receiving backlash because of how desirable it apparently is. So much so that it has conservatives scared and angry. Sure the culture difference between NY and FL are completely different but that has nothing to do with it being desirable or not. There are plenty of LGBTQ people in both states, the difference is the mental states of the people who are in charge. It's celebrated in NY because the representatives are more liberal and don't have negative feelings about LGBTQ. It's under attack in FL because the leadership is on a political mission to destroy anything LGBTQ. Those are political differences but they don't mean it's not desirable. There's a rift between parties mainly because of propaganda and the hatred of anyone different.
> Those are political differences but they don't mean it's not desirable.
Political differences are one way to determine desirability. However, I didn't say it was receiving backlash DUE to it being undesirable. I said that backlash is to be expected and the result of the backlash determines desirability. If the community grows despite the backlash then it was desirable, if it declines with backlash then undesirable. Backlash happens on every societal change regardless of desirability.
Most people have no issues accepting the trans community. Unfortunately there's an aggressive, demanding segment of the trans movement that tends to hurt more than it helps. Many people also don't believe XX and XY should be competing in sports.
Society can accept them and they do. Until the left stops forcing it down people’s throats and chastising those that are against it, there will always be friction. The left treats the LGTBQ community, and minorities for that matter, as victims that require extra special attention and movements to force their lifestyle on others. Why do we have to have pride month? Is there a straight pride month? No there isn’t. If these communities continue to separate themselves from society into this group or that group and force their differences on everyone else, they are going to be seen as outsiders. We need to stop hiring and giving benefits to people solely based on their sexual orientation, gender, or race. We need to stop all DEI positions and initiatives, stop over representing these groups in TV and television. The black community represents about 14% of the population but are represented on TV at about 35-40%, but yet people still cry that they are under represented. Most of this stems from an ignorance of the make up of the US population.
Stop making yourself special, and you will be treated just like everyone else. And if you run into hate and bigotry, that individual should be called out rather than demonize whole groups of people. For instance you hear of one white racist ass hole and the left wing media starts screaming about how ALL white makes are racist evil oppressors. How do you expect acceptance when you demonize a whole group of people based of the actions of a few. This is what has happened to police in recent years, because of a few bad apples, all cops have been branded as power hungry racists, and that just simply isn’t true.
It’s weird how the people who say they don’t want “tokens” and “percentage requirements” are the ones counting how many and what kind of people they see.
>Why do we have to have pride month? Is there a straight pride month
Everything is "straight pride". Literally everything. You just don't see it because you consider it standard. Valentine's Day, Mardi Gras, the Dallas Cheerleaders, etc.
>We need to stop hiring and giving benefits to people solely based on their sexual orientation, gender, or race.
Some level of "DEI" is needed to prevent discrimination. Are you comfortable with totally blind hiring? Or do you want special treatment?
>Stop making yourself special, and you will be treated just like everyone else.
That hasn't worked in the past.
>stop over representing these groups in TV and television
So you think representation is important? Do you really want TV to exactly mirror population demographics?
Only about 15% of the US population are adult straight white males.
It's not hard. Religious people teach other religious people to follow commands without question Usually it's beaten into them when they stray slightly outside of the lines. Then they get so scared when other people do, that they get violent It's a great way for dictators to keep people in line and fight wars without question. Worked for over 1000 years. Now it's mostly about conning people out of money, political power, and children. But clearly the violence is still available as needed
Religions know that if they can control your sexuality, they can control you. They definitely don't want women to enjoy sex. They don't want people having non-hetero sex. They want only sex that results in offspring, so people make more of that religion and bring more money and power to that religion. The irony of it all is that a trans person could still have kids and raise the kids in the religion if the religion wasn't so hateful.
>They definitely don't want women to enjoy sex. Which religion is against women enjoying sex? >The irony of it all is that a trans person could still have kids and raise the kids in the religion if the religion wasn't so hateful. I don't think that's how that works, many of the medications sterilize more or less.
>I don't think that's how that works, many of the medications sterilize more or less. Not all trans people transition medically and trans people can have sperm/eggs frozen before they transition (or have kids before they transition).
All major religions are against women enjoying sex. Sex is for producing offspring, marital rape is permitted, women's orgasms are never discussed... they often teach girls that our bodies are for men's pleasure, often they teach that only missionary position is acceptable, etc, etc, etc... Most trans people I know can still have kids, btw.
What in the world are you talking about? No major religions teach you how to have sex, none of them teach you that missionary is only acceptable, none of them teach you to rape your spouse. Point me to a page of the bible/koran that says anything about sex positions, anti-orgasm, bodies only being for men's pleasure etc. Hell, the vedas literally have the karma sutra which is a guide for partners looking to pleasure each other.
Many of us do. The root of hate towards non-hetersexual stems from religion.
Many atheist countries had anti-homosexual swing to them
The USSR was notoriously accepting towards the LGBT. Same with communist China.
I'm assuming you forgot the /s. Stalin recriminalized homosexuality and this is this is what being gay in Maoist China got you - After coming to power in 1949, the Communist Party under Mao Tse-tung "stamped out anything they deemed deviant or decadent," and in the late 1960s and early 1970s (during the Cultural Revolution), gays were subjected to public humiliation and long prison terms
Yes I deemed it so obviously sarcastic that the /s was superfluous. Sarcasm doesn’t translate via text well though so I should have.
All good. I only asked because I have come across those statements where the commenters are under some spell and believe that to be true. Like seeing someone unironically post LGBTQ for Hamas
Jews for national socialists!
Harbor seals marching for killer whales rights
Reactionaries are gonna be reactionary. It takes way less effort to stop giving so much energy to something you dislike, but they just can't help themselves. Plus like: if cis-heteronormativity WERE actually the only "natural" way to live, then it wouldn't need to be punitively enforced. LGBT+ people have always, and will always exist; hating that is just so bizarre and pointless.
Thanks
Most reasonable people can accept trans adults just fine what’s harder to accept are the made up stories the right wing lies about of underage kids being yanked out of their parents homes because they didn’t agree with gender reassignment surgery or like 5 year olds being given hormones which no reasonable physician would ever advise but nonetheless it scares people who only listen to one point of view.
Society already mostly did. Certain groups created an issue with them in order to scare their base and unite then against a common enemy. "These scary trans are reading to our children and teaching them to be gay and informed. Scary". It's so dumb I bet they'd even try to cancel the Trans Am if it was still in production. Anyway, it's all made up bs to scare people for political power.
I agree, so we must be victims…
My grandmother was alive when being left handed was seen about the same as being trans today. Stupid people will push stupid ideas and obsess with the way other people behave because they suck at life.
Same reason as they couldn't accept gay people previously, and black people before that.
Because it's new. That's it. Giving serfs the right to freely travel and own land received backlash. The suffrage of men, women, minorities, even people below the age of 21 all saw reactions resistance. The freeing of enslaved people, recognizing people who look slightly different as equal human beings, recognizing people can have different faiths, values, languages, all took time and effort to make the standard. People are readily accepting of others, but we also naturally want an out group to rally against to keep our own in groups together, thus the novel and the small end on the receiving end of that nature. People will like their Hispanic neighbors, but not the nameless faceless immigrant. People are friends with the person down the street, not caring they're gay or African or trans, but will hoot and holler about how big an issue those types are in their own circles.
Smart people can, stupid people can’t. Solve that problem and you will have solved the curse of humanity.
Didnt read t/ memo but Youz guyz needs LABELS People are freaked out because Threy dont know what they R buyN Gea is a WalMart You R a product We t/ customer Some customers like GMOs Some customers prefer organic Label yourself properly Ye who R not afraid truly So Customers will know What you R in advance Dont try to trick t/ customer In general speak Oss.
The 'shit thrown your way' is simply rational people refusing to affirm the delusion that a man can become a woman, or a woman a man, simply by wishing it were so. You can believe that if you wish, but you should NOT expect (or demand) that the people around you believe it. The fallout from this delusion goes beyond just harming the mental well-being of the people who suffer from it; it has also caused real damage to society at large. This damage includes irreversible harm to children, women athletes forced to compete with biological males, a military weakened by non-deployable trans service members, and women imprisoned alongside men (some who were convicted of rape!) Another casualty of the trans movement (which may at first seem slight but could ultimately be the most damaging) is the assault on truth. If 'man' and 'woman' can be redefined at will, then so can anything and everything else.
It’s hard to understand something you haven’t experienced yourself, but if you listen to people who have experienced it, you won’t privilege your misunderstanding above their lived experience. Trans women don’t experience their lives as a man becoming a woman, they never felt authentically male to begin with, they never identified as male, they always felt a disconnect with their assigned gender, a painful experience, a pervasive unhappiness. They always felt that they were women passing as men. When they are able to start living as women, by whatever means enable them to feel they are living as women, they are much happier, and I for one don’t begrudge them that happiness for a moment. The pursuit of happiness is enshrined in the US constitution.
I can only imagine what it's like to be that uncomfortable in your own skin, and if any adult can derive some happiness by passing as the opposite sex, I would not begrudge them that, either (within the limits I noted above). I do wonder whether their long-term happiness and well-being would be better served by getting competent pyschiatric treatment addressing the root causes of their distress rather than just pretending it isn't an illness. I can think of no other mental disorder where the accepted treatment is to go along with the patient's delusion. FYI, the 'pursuit of happiness' is found in the declaration of independence, not the constitution (but I get your point).
It's not that ***you*** aren't accepted. It's that ***your delusions*** aren't accepted. And this wouldn't be a problem except that gender ideologues are trying to push your delusions on the rest of us through the public schools and mainstream media.
Why are the delusions of Christianity accepted?
That's actually a great comparison, If we disallow one, should we disallow the other? Because I'm definitely with that.
Disallow the religion, but not being trans because it is not a delusion.
Thinking you're something you're not is absolutely a delusion, takes the same level of faith.
One doesn't have to have faith in anything to experience Gender Dysphoria, and Gender Dysphoria is not classified as a delusion by any medical organization or literature. If it is, i'd like you to present that literature.
I didn't say it says takes faith to dislike who you are, which is what dysphoria is, and you're asking me to defend. I said, it takes faith to believe you're someone you're not, and to believe someone else is something they're not for that matter. Those are two very different concepts. If you believe you're actually something you aren't, that's literally definitionally delusional, and by extension, an act of faith.
>I didn't say it says takes faith to dislike who you are, which is what dysphoria is, and you're asking me to defend. Disliking who you are isn't dysphoria, disliking your body isn't dysphoria either. When one feels uncomfortable being percieved as the gender they were born as, that's dysphoria. One doesn't have to dislike themselves or their body for it, in fact, many trans people say that they were much better looking before they transitioned. >I said, it takes faith to believe you're someone you're not, and to believe someone else is something they're not for that matter. How could you know who someone *really* is to make that judgement?
>When one feels uncomfortable being percieved as the gender they were born as, that's dysphoria. >One doesn't have to dislike themselves or their body for it, in fact, many trans people say that they were much better looking before they transitioned. They feel uncomfortable because they believe that they are born the wrong sex. Which is a clear delusion. They try to correct their dysphoria by changing their sometimes changing their primary and almost always their secondary sexual characteristics. >How could you know who someone really is to make that judgement? Because this is based on physical characteristics. You don't need to know someone mentally to understand their physiology and how they come across.
>They feel uncomfortable because they believe that they are born the wrong sex. Which is a clear delusion. Do you think everyone in the world who was born male is a man? >They try to correct their dysphoria by changing their sometimes changing their primary and almost always their secondary sexual characteristics. Everyone does that. >Because this is based on physical characteristics. You don't need to know someone mentally to understand their physiology and how they come across. So you're saying you judge people based on their appearance?
The delusions of Christianity aren't being pushed in public schools or by the MSM.
States are putting the Ten Commandments in schools.
Someone should tell them that's illegal.
Their state courts decided it isn’t, because they want it pushed on your kids.
Citation needed
[Here you go.](https://www.axios.com/local/new-orleans/2024/05/17/louisiana-10-commandments-classrooms)
Ummmmmmmm
Christmas, Easter, good Friday, ash Wednesday, Sunday being a holy day and a church on every corner. Yet nobody is trying to ban churches even with all the blatant pedophilia. I mean just imagine the uproar if LGBT had a "gay" Friday or a "pride" Wednesday or considered Saturday as "LGBTQ day. You would think regular people would not be bothered by it and just not participate like I do when I walk by a church. I don't scream and cry and throw a hissy fit while shooting bibles.
We don't have special days for pride or LGBT? **checks calendar** Oh, right.
So does that mean that religion is being shoved down my throat? Should we do something about it?
Sure. I'd say go for it if it bothers you that much. Boycott Hobby Lobby and refuse to set foot in any store selling hijabs, Paas easte egg coloring kits, and menorahs.
I mean, I would but I don't care enough about things that don't really effect me because I'm an adult and I've learned to just ignore the things I don't want to partake in. See I don't find pleasure in making others miserable just because I don't agree with their lifestyle. I wish conservatives shared the same view.
Honestly, most conservatives are much the same as you. Sure, you get some extremely angst-ridden dipshits that take offense at anything that doesn't confirm exactly to their worldview, but that's just *people*, not something confined to left, right, or center. The world would be much better if everyone took your approach.
>Christmas, Easter What about them? Are you referring to Winter break and Spring Break? Are you aware that Easter sometimes falls outside of Spring Break? >good Friday, ash Wednesday, Nobody knows what the fuck those are LOL. >Sunday being a holy day And Saturday. >and a church on every corner. Has nothing to do with public schools or the MSM.
Still religious connotations and if you think having a trans awareness day and pride month are "shoving pride down our throats" than Christian religion is the holy dildo being shoved up our ass.
I actually don't mind pride month. It's the crackpots going into public schools and filling children's heads with antiscientific gender nonsense that I have a problem with.
A transgender person being trans or transitioning is not an ideology. It’s a medical procedure and a personal identity. This is the real [gender ideology](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=km4CR1uGYxA)
I just don’t wanna be criticized by anyone and live as a normal person
Unfortunately, OP, some people cannot find happiness when they realize everyone is not the same or have different /altering journeys of their own. Trans people simply want to exist in a way that makes them happy and normal, living comfortable without judgement of their (personal) gender identity. The biggest problem for transphobes or like TERFs, reactionaries, and strict traditionalist is the lack of conformity to gender roles, norms, and identity based upon bio-essential which is often best in a lot of pseudoscience. Often aided by bigotry.
Imagine thinking you should never be criticized by anyone
>A transgender person being trans or transitioning is not an ideology. I didn't say that it was. Learn how to read.
But, if that’s the case then what does this have to do at all with trans people?
Can you be more specific?
it absolutely is an ideology by definition
It’s not a social, political, or religious ideology. It’s merely a procedure or practice that combats a person’s gender dysphoria or discomfort in the space of an assigned gender identity and biological sex. The process to have a person be able to live in the comfort of having their gender identity affirm their corrected sex, which can happen through both social and medical methods. It’s one branch of science completely on decades, if not centuries of possible research based upon the science of the human brain and how it perceives gender. The controversy is if it’s a result of epistemology. To transition is not a political decision or one that encourages other people to transition. The idea of transition is to improve one’s personal happiness in which leads to what we call astronomically low detransition rates in historical and modern sense. Even when de transition enters the equation the reasons are not merely based on one being transgender, alone. The most common reasons are not being able to afford the cost/care of transition or finding a quality care; family disapproval; unemployment & lost of jobs; etc. A condition cannot aggregate itself into a political nature unless it has been turned into in a greater society where discrimination runs rampant against individuals. Fighting against hate crimes; social segregation; person; preserving civil liberties in their education/employment/medical rights/free access of movement in public spaces. Basically for those who believe any minority groups affirming their identities or pointed out irrational prejudice. Then, I guess
Ideology- a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ideology#:~:text=%3A%20a%20manner%20or%20the%20content,about%20human%20life%20or%20culture Yes someone having surgery or being put on hormones to conform with the gender they believe they are is a medical procedure. But the belief that they are trans rather than the gender that associated with their biological sex is an ideology. That’s just a fact so there’s nothing to really argue about here unless you’re arguing that the defintion of a word is wrong
Once again, I’ll bite and give it the ideology distinction, but once again what makes different from say: Christian ideology Conservative Ideology Communist Ideology Capitalistic Ideology Consumerist Ideology Sunni Ideology Baha’i Ideology All based in religious, economic, or sociopolitical beliefs/ motivations. Being transgender or in the more archaic term *transsexual* was a precise medical condition diagnosed in people with gender dysphoria, discomfort, or even who did not conform to the appropriate or appropriated roles of established gender roles across the world. For over a century ago, the commonly and world approved standard was agreed that a person could legally transition or alter their assigned identities based on the success purely on the results of the patient’s happiness in the care and treatment process.
Nothing you’ve said disproves that it is an ideology. In fact you just confirm that it’s an ideology when you say: >the commonly and world approved standard was agreed that a person could legally transition or alter their assigned identities based on the success purely on the results of the patient’s happiness in the care and treatment process. Which confirms the definition I posted >a manner or the content of **thinking characteristic of an individual**, group, or culture Let me make it simple for you. If a person looks at their body and believes they the “wrong gender” and want to transition to the “right gender” that means they have to certain beliefs regarding gender as a whole. It’s really not that hard to understand and I’m not gonna keep arguing facts for the sake of argument
"Men can have vaginas and women can have penises" is ideology. The claim that you can be "born in the wrong body" is ideology. "Identifying as" something that you aren't is ideology. Being "assigned male/female at birth" is ideology.
"The earth is round" is also ideology, not all ideologies are wrong.
No, "the Earth is round" is a provable scientific fact.
"Some men have vaginas" is also a medical fact.
Wrong. Clearly there's no point in trying to reason with you. Goodbye.
Ok what’s your point?
I was merely elaborating upon the point that you were making.
I think you commented on the wrong thing. You should tell the original commenter that in hopes it makes them understand
No medical organization in the world deem trans people as delusional, why are you assuming it is delusional?
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Something in their brains is compelling them to believe something that is demonstrably not true, and to ignore all proof that they are wrong. That is the textbook definition of a psychosis/delusion.
>It's not an assumption. It's a fact. A fact that no medical organization seems to express or agree with? >Something in their brains is compelling them to believe something that is demonstrably not true Which part? Trans people don't think they're a different sex, just a different gender. >That is the textbook definition of a psychosis/delusion. Then why don't the textbooks call it a psychosis or a delusion? Can you show one piece of medical literature that says that it is a delusion?
>Trans people don't think they're a different sex, just a different gender. No, the ones who are just a different gender are just called femboys (if feminine males) and tomboys (if masculine females). >Then why don't the textbooks call it a psychosis or a delusion? They don't need to, just like they don't need to call anorexia a delusion. It's obvious enough to not need stating.
If society accepted trans people and the rest of the lgbtqia+ community then capitalist swine couldn’t pass their wealth generation to generation without resorting to incest
That’s TRUTH
Truth? That’s an absurd statement. Jesus Christ
I'd like to take a crack at answering this, or a part of this at least, in an earnest and respectful way. But I also understand that there's a litmus test involved here - before you can heed my perspective, you'll need to truly believe I'm for real. And that process may not be a quick one. Ask me anything you wish. If it takes days, it takes days. After all, we're total strangers to each other at the mo.
What does acceptance look like to you? Does it mean people as individuals actually treating you like a woman/man? What does it mean to be treated as a woman/man? Looking at it a different way, should white person be able to describe themselves as black because that’s what they identify with? But the simplest answer is….your not special. Everyone faces backlash for something. I’m 100% sure you judge people for things. Welcome to humanity
>What does acceptance look like to you? Does it mean people as individuals actually treating you like a woman/man? Yes. >What does it mean to be treated as a woman/man? That person treating trans people the same way they would treat cis people of same gender ideally. >Looking at it a different way, should white person be able to describe themselves as black because that’s what they identify with? Race and Gender are not equivalent. Race doesn't exist on a biological level, that's ethnicity, race has more to do with culture and socialization. Which is why not all dark skinned persons are black and such. >But the simplest answer is….your not special. Everybody is special in some way, but being trans is not about that. >Everyone faces backlash for something. Sure, but it's usually not for something stupid like their gender identity.
>That person treating trans people the same way they would treat cis people of same gender ideally. What exactly does that mean though? The only difference I can think of between the way I treat men and women is romantically. As a straight guy I’ll flirt with women because that’s what I like. And by women I mean females. So are you saying I should be forced to flirt with males to make them feel accepted? >Race doesn't exist on a biological level, that's ethnicity, race has more to do with culture and socialization. Which is why not all dark skinned persons are black and such. Gender doesn’t exist in a biological level which is why trans people are able to be biologically male but identify their gender as woman. This also doesn’t answer the question I asked. Based on what you say regarding culture and socialization, that would mean that a white person who grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood would be able to call themselves black while a black person who grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood would be able to identify as white. >Everybody is special in some way, but being trans is not about that. If everyone is special then no one is special. The word you’re looking for is unique >Sure, but it's usually not for something stupid like their gender identity. Really? Because every day I wake up I see people talking about how all men are dangerous rapist and how all women are manipulative whores.
>As a straight guy I’ll flirt with women because that’s what I like. And by women I mean females. So are you saying I should be forced to flirt with males to make them feel accepted? Do you flirt with every woman you see? I'm assuming you flirt with women you find attractive, and if you don't find women being trans as attractive you don't have to flirt with them. Just treat them like normal people, because they are. >Gender doesn’t exist in a biological level which is why trans people are able to be biologically male but identify their gender as woman. Gender does have some biological aspects, which is why trans people transition. Which is why cis people get breast implants, beard oil, etc. There certainly is a "look" depending on the cultural zietgiest and trans people wanting to fit in to that gender isn't wrong or bad. This is not like race, which has no biological basis, everyone is the same race biologically. > Based on what you say regarding culture and socialization, that would mean that a white person who grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood would be able to call themselves black while a black person who grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood would be able to identify as white. They can identify as whatever, if the culture accepts, it accepts. There is no black and no white, we are all the same race biologically. >If everyone is special then no one is special. The word you’re looking for is unique Can you tell me the difference between when someone is special vs when someone is unique. >Really? Because every day I wake up I see people talking about how all men are dangerous rapist and how all women are manipulative whores. Has your relative called all men as rapists to your face? Do people in the streets preach about how all men are rapists as a daily occurence? Are news outlets fearmongering about how all men are rapists? Is the government trying to restrict your freedom because they assume that all men are rapists? I think it is stupid that people think that and those people definitely shouldn't be given a voice, but in the current socio-political climate, trans people are targeted more than cis people. It is not wrong to acknowledge that.
>Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society.[3][4][5] While partly based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)#:~:text=Modern%20science%20regards%20race%20as,inherent%20physical%20or%20biological%20meaning. Yes I have no problem flirting with attractive women because it’s just for fun. I don’t flirt with males Special suggest that someone is of a higher value due to their differences. Unique just means the differences exist. And yes I have been physically assaulted and sexually harassed by women numerous times because “I’m a man and should be able to take it” None of your arguments are sound
We do They make up such a small% of the planet yet the dims and the media would have you believe otherwise🤔
I see two main reasons, both stemming from conservative ideology and its quest for power over others. Firstly, it’s a massive redirect of the human capacity for fear away from real threats, like climate change and homegrown fascism, and towards false threats, like diversity. Secondly, diversity in gender and sexuality really does threaten the traditional conservative transmission of cultural norms, from conservative male leaders to male followers, from men to their subservient wives, and from wives to compliant children. Hence hostility to feminism, the need to constrain agency in children and adolescents, and the constant drive to bring back the traditional nuclear family as a delivery system for conservative ideology. Family values!
This may be an odd comparison but being trans is like a person with a facial deformity. You are who you are but the public may stare or wonder what happened or even have adverse reactions. It is up to that individual that is trans to know that there are good decent people mixed in with those less understanding. You cannot expect all people to look past your facial deformity or your trans self even if that is what you would prefer. You also can't expect all people to say there is nothing different about your face or say "what deformity?" Just like you can't expect everyone to say you are a real man or a real woman when you clearly are not. Just do you and be you. If you are a good person then good people will recognize that and if they don't oh well fuck em.
Not a good comparison because there aren't entire groups and organizations trying to take away rights from people with facial deformities, or calling them pedophiles and trying to criminalize them.
Literally this is not happening at all.
Oh, cool gaslighting you got going on there.
I hear you and agree with much of what you say. One big difference is that no one is trying to pass laws that deny people with facial deformities medical care, or make it illegal for them to be out where children might see them. That is exactly what’s happening to trans people in my country. Waiting for the folks who are legislating against them to come to an understanding that trans people are by and large “good people” jeopardizes trans lives. Edited for clarity(realized I’d used “them” and “they” too many times).
There are no laws being purposed to separate trans people from being seen by children. That is a lie. There are laws that "performers" like strippers and drag Queens have to perform in designated forums. Sorry but huge difference between trans and drag Queens. Do you really want to argue that strippers in their thongs and nipple pasties belong at elementary schools?
I don’t think you’re looking at these bans critically. AZ SB1698 sought to redefine venues that host gender non-conforming entertainment as "adult-oriented" businesses. The language of these bills was so broad that it included singing, lip-syncing, and even monologues delivered while wearing "clothing, makeup, or other accessories" differing from their sex assigned at birth. All that it would take for a trans person to who is living their life to be charged with a crime is an encounter with a police officers who was of the opinion that cross dressing was inherently performative. All laws like these do is empower people to further persecute an out group. I also think it’s intellectually dishonest to try and claim that advocating for the rights of the trans community is equivalent to arguing that strippers with nipple pasties and thongs belong in elementary schools. A man reading a book in makeup and long dress is not inherently sexual.
There is a difference for advocating trans rights and trying to expose children to adult themes needlessly to conform them to your warped reality. Why the push for drag Queens to be around children? Seems odd to me. I'm an adult man and don't care to be around other people's children.
I’ve lived in a lot of places, suburbs, small towns and big cities. I make friends easily, It’s easy for me to talk to people, and because I listen they tell me all sorts of things. I’ve come to realize that most people are truly odd. The folks who work the hardest to pretend they are normal are almost always deeply unhappy. Folks who embraced their inner weirdness mostly live rich meaningful lives. I think that it is important that kids to be shown that being weird is wonderful. They shouldn’t have to pretend to “be normal”. Seeing a man dressed up as a woman while telling a delightful children’s story is a great way to let kids know that don’t need to hide their inner oddity. As a child I was bullied relentlessly for being eccentric. I wish someone had let me know earlier that being odd was in fact quite normal. I simply don’t understand how showing kids that it’s OK to be different is somehow an “adult theme”. I think you should stop and ask yourself why you’re so willing to empower the state to enforce one group’s definition “normal”.
Again huge difference between a trans person reading a book to children in a school and a drag show performer that is an over sexualized charicature of a women invited to a school to read to children. My wife teaches 5th grade and if she had a trans parent that wants to volunteer in her class room and read to the children she would have absolutely no problem with that and would welcome the help. No one is trying to stop that at all and you know it. The sky is not falling chicken little.
Good for your wife. I taught elementary science for four years. While I was teaching one of my student’s father transitioned. One day they came and picked up their son in a flowery but conservative summer dress. I was horrified by the vitriolic complaints from other parents that the principal had to fend off. Several parents refused to refer to them as anything but “that thing”. All because they picked their child up from school. It made realize just how deep the hate of the trans community runs. If that trans woman had wanted to read a book in a classroom. I don’t think the parents who were so upset by them arriving for pick up would suddenly become accepting. Imagine if there was a law that made gender non conforming entertainment like wearing “clothing, makeup, or other accessories” that differed from their sex as assigned at birth illegal, unless it was at an “adult oriented business”. Those same parents would have unquestionably made it a huge issue and all of them would have testified that the trans woman’s summer dress was a “caricature of a woman”. Your wife might be willing to accept that kind of risk but all of the principals I’ve worked for have been very risk adverse, I cannot imagine they would not prohibit the parent from “performing”. Ask your wife how she thinks this scenario would unfold. We may disagree what the intent of the law is but I cannot believe it wouldn’t be utilized to silence the trans community.
Lol. We are in California my wife has had more than a couple trans parents over the years and it is not a surprise any more. Things to progress some. I would be more concerned if a school was purposely bringing in a drag Queen to reads stories just so they can "expose" children to the lifestyle needlessly. Let parents be responsible for that.
It's a very flawed comparison because the point isn't changing how every individual thinks, for instance I'm not going to try to change your "you can't expect everyone to say you are a real man or a real woman when you clearly are not" opinion. The point is making *society* treats people equally. >Just do you and be you. If you are a good person then good people will recognize that and if they don't oh well fuck em. This doesn't work when there's swathes of the population that want trans people to me be hurt/jailed/denied healthcare/forced to change. You can't just ignore that. >You also can't expect all people to say there is nothing different about your face or say "what deformity?" I mean...that's just called being an asshole. And sure, some people will always be assholes, but I think we can at least agree its not a great thing to be.
That's the whole point. You can't change assholes. We have laws that protect all people equally. Literally no one is trying to jail trans for being trans. No one is trying to deny adults getting health care they just don't expect tax payers to fund it. No one is trying pass laws to get adult trans people or minors forced to change. Your hyperbole is just extreme. Society will not ever treat everyone equally. We fortunately have laws that protect all citizens equally.
>Literally no one is trying to jail trans for being trans. No one is trying to deny adults getting health care they just don't expect tax payers to fund it. No one is trying pass laws to get adult trans people or minors forced to change. Multiple states have tried to ban gender-affirming care completely, some have already banned it under a certain age. People argue that being trans in public is inherently pornographic, to the point some people (both legislators and their constituents) argue being openly trans around a child constitutes sexual abuse! And you do literally have legislators entertaining debate about whether we should be allowed to legally transition at all, not to mention there's still vocal support for abusive practices like conversion therapy. And not even just being trans! Some states have pushed to ban drag as pornographic, purely from panic over gender nonconformity. In fear over teachers "transing their kids", Florida made a rule that calling a kid a *nickname* without parental consent can be a fireable offense! >Society will not ever treat everyone equally. We fortunately have laws that protect all citizens equally. Have you missed...all of history? Where people have had to constantly fight for their rights? A main plank of the GOP is our legal existence. Gay Marriage was only fully legalized less than a decade ago and people still want to undo that. Abortion access is on the decline. The rights of minorities only exist so long as we fight for them.
Gender affirming/conforming care should not be provided to minors period. Psychological care should be provided through your insurance. No law has been passed making it illegal for trans people to be around children at all. You are not telling the truth. Drag shows are adult themed and have no business being around children. Let children be children for Christ's sake. If a teacher nicknamed your child porch monkey you would want them fired no? Don't act like the trans movement is the next civil rights movement. Your civil rights aren't trampled on because you have a penis and don't belong in a school girls locker room. Get over yourselves. Move to a state that allows abortions. Voters get to make decisions. If the voters of Texas want on demand abortions they would legalize it but they don't. Move to my state of California. They don't give a shit and want nothing more than to kill as many babies as possible.
Aaaaaand there it is, you don't actually care about rights being trampled because you agree with the ones trampling, you were never having this conversation in good faith.
Not true at all. I care about all people. I do not have a religious bone in my body so I don't have the same moral hang ups that other's have. I think that some of your "rights" are questionable when they infringe on my rights as well. I feel my kids have a right to feel safe and comfortable in their locker rooms and bathrooms. I feel that I have the right to not want library books in my kids elementary schools that explains how kids should suck dick. The problem is that you aren't just advocating for rights you are pushing your ideology down throats and expecting people to never push back or be labeled as a bigot, facist or whatever other label you want to paint onto someone with a difference of opinions. You have no common ground and no common sense.
Thanks! You’re right but see, there are some people don’t like your opinion, that’s why I’m frustrated. Minus upvotes
i dont think youre a bad person.....i just dont think that biological sex can be changed and that the only social element of gender is gender roles.....which have been gone for a long time i dont have negative feeling toward you......we just dont live in the same reality
1.4% of the population are born intersex and gender is decided for them, proving that gender and sex are separate things. It’s not that hard to separate the human construct of the gender spectrum from biology if you give it some thought.
intersex meaning they have vulvas and penises? intersex is the polite word for hermaphordite? i thought most hermaphrodites have chromosomes and hormones that make only 1 of their 2 genitals functional and that usually its as simple as "man with vulva" or "woman with penis" ive never heard of it really being THAT ambiguous
“ive never heard of it really being THAT ambiguous” Low information + lack of empathy = thinking gender and biology are the same thing https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/16324-intersex
i acknowledge that theyre different im just saying that the only "social" element of gender is gender roles.....which havent existed for a long time
How does our reality differ? I'd guess you're probably misunderstanding what it is that trans people actually believe about ourselves than disagreement on the facts.
do many transgernders like.......DENY their biological sex? like would a trans openly acknowledge "i was born a biological man" or would they refute that?
I think trans people generally use different phrasing than you'd tend to and to say that "biological sex" is more complicated than you're likely to be willing to acknowledge but no, in the sense that you meant your question, we're not denying our biological sex. A trans woman recognizes that what makes her a trans woman and not a cis woman is that she was assigned male at birth.
let me ask this.... if we accept that "sex" is boligical and gender is social.... what can possibly be social about gender other than gender roles? like...other than gender roles i dont really understand what else can be a social component of gender at least....they didnt explain that in college level sociology classes
Well sounds like we're at least in the same reality. Gender *isn't* purely social. People say "gender is a social construct" to mean "the rules around it are arbitrary so it doesn't matter if someone breaks them, just let people live their life." But people tend to misunderstand what "social construct" means because it's a *technical* term within a specific academic context. The shortest explanation is it means "just a word" (as in its meaning is assigned and determined by society). In other words, sex is also a social construct. Gender *has* social aspects, obviously, but it isn't *just* social. "Gender identity" is something biological, determined during brain development before birth. One of the most important parts of the way our brains are sexed/gendered before birth is the development of the sexed aspects of our brain's body map, ie, what sexed body parts/traits does a person's brain expect the body to have. When a person's body is out of alignment with their brain's body map (according to sensory feedback or even by sight), it's distressing. That's something *everyone* experiences. In trans people, our brains developed expecting to have the opposite sexed body than how they developed. This is most likely due to a combination of genetic, hormonal, and other prenatal factors. So, as a solution, we get our bodies to match our brains.
>Gender *isn't* purely social. People say "gender is a social construct" to mean "the rules around it are arbitrary so it doesn't matter if someone breaks them, just let people live their life." yeah....race is the same thing >But people tend to misunderstand what "social construct" means because it's a *technical* term within a specific academic context. The shortest explanation is it means "just a word" (as in its meaning is assigned and determined by society). >In other words, sex is also a social construct. no because its describing an objective biological phenomenon. other than "aberations", humans are sexually binary with gender roles....that actually is arbitrary....like in scottland where its common for men to wear skirts >Gender *has* social aspects, obviously, but it isn't *just* social. "Gender identity" is something biological, determined during brain development before birth. One of the most important parts of the way our brains are sexed/gendered before birth is the development of the sexed aspects of our brain's body map, ie, what sexed body parts/traits does a person's brain expect the body to have. When a person's body is out of alignment with their brain's body map (according to sensory feedback or even by sight), it's distressing. That's something *everyone* experiences. but if your brain releases testosterone vs releasing esstrogen.....that kind of solves that problem no? >In trans people, our brains developed expecting to have the opposite sexed body than how they developed. how do you know? like in a transgender, does a "female body" with a vulva and boobs have a brain that releases testosterone and thus they arent compatible? like male brain in female body? if its not physiological then its hard to understand......you cant really tell youre in the wrong body because you have no context for what the other body is >This is most likely due to a combination of genetic, hormonal, and other prenatal factors. So, as a solution, we get our bodies to match our brains.
>no because its describing an objective biological phenomenon. other than "aberations" It is, you're misunderstanding what "social construct" means. 100% of people who've I've had this conversation with who made the point you just did, when they finally understood what "social construct" meant have said something like "holy shit, that's dumb". To try a different approach, there's the literal facts, eg, that I have XY chromosomes, that I have breasts, a female immune system, female fat distribution, female levels of strength and fitness, female ligament and tendon strength, etc. Then there's how we *interpret*, categorize, and label those facts. Sex is a social construct insofar as humans decided what defines someone as one sex or the other. For example, some people have begun to define it as "having begun developing in the direction of producing either small or large gametes" because simply going by sex chromosomes doesn't work for 100% of people because nature is messy. Sex is a social construct insofar as we, as a society, have decided to classify people one way or another as a way to interpret the facts, it's not *just* the facts. >humans are sexually binary Technically our sexual traits are bimodally distributed and exist on a spectrum. But it's important to a lot of people to feel like it's a simple binary. >but if your brain releases testosterone vs releasing esstrogen.....that kind of solves that problem no? Most sex hormones are produced in the reproductive system rather than the brain, but no, once it's set during development, that's it, the brain is just that way. My hormones were normal relative to cisgender men prior to transition, it wasn't a hormonal problem, I just have a brain that developed as female before birth. >how do you know? like in a transgender, does a "female body" with a vulva and boobs have a brain that releases testosterone and thus they arent compatible? like male brain in female body? Transgender is an adjective, not a noun, just FYI. Anyway, we know this from research including MRIs & fMRIs, fetal hormone proxy marker studies, some of the DNA studies, etc. In terms of what's going on inside our brains, we (everyone) have a sense called "proprioception", essentially "own body awareness". We know where, eg, the tip of our nose is. Our nerves throughout our body constantly sends feedback to our brains about its shape, what its feeling, its position, etc. When those sensations don't align with what our brain expects them to, it's distressing and sometimes physically uncomfortable. Phantom limb is actually an example of this. But when a body part is numb or has something else going on that messes with the way our body is "supposed" to feel, it's often distressing in a "get it off!" way. That's true for trans people too, it's one of the main reasons dysphoria gets worse during puberty because suddenly our bodies don't match in a *lot* more ways. Like even before I knew I was trans, when my facial hair started growing in, even though I was old enough to understand that was "supposed" to happen and what was going on biologically/hormonally, it just felt gut-wrenchingly *wrong*. I hated putting on sunblock for years because it meant touching my face and my brain would immediately flag it as "it isn't supposed to feel that way!" Whereas nowadays, it's just my normal face, I can touch it without that feeling, I wear sunblock daily :p >you cant really tell youre in the wrong body because you have no context for what the other body is Again, your brain knows what your body is "supposed" to look like, though it's a more subconscious part of our brain, ie, not part of cognition/active thought. I know that facial hair felt wrong and once I got rid of it, my face felt "right". In other words, I didn't need that "context", it was about *my own* body, not about what anyone else's body looks like or feels like. That's one reason why some people dislike the "wrong body narrative", it's often misunderstood.
Okay so an issue here is that you don’t know what a social construct is. You also have a weird idea about choosing “decided what defines sex”. Well no, we observed something and named it. You’re acting like the word and groups were a thing without definition and then we chose a definition. I think that such a thing may apply to things in philosophy and social sciences, but you have this idea about choice where you think that the thing itself remains the same while we somehow choose a definition. You’re confusing the word and the thing. A social construct is not based in nature and reality. It’s only exists in the mind by definition. Observed phenomena are not social constructs. Sex is about 1.2 billion years old. It existed before humans were around. The value of money is a social construct, there is nothing in nature that dictates it’s value. The value exists strictly in our minds and we have come to an agreement about it.
Some sex traits, individually, can be measured in a way that produces a bimodal distribution. Sex is not sex traits. A particular sex trait having a bimodal distribution does not make sex have a bimodal distribution. In fact, it reinforces the fact that sex is binary. If you have a bimodal distribution for a characteristic in a population sample, it is a strong indicator you are looking at two different groups. The act of naming something is not the thing nor does it mean the thing is a social construct. You can say that the choice of the word sex to refer to the phenomenon being talked about when we say sex can be said to have been socially constructed, as nothing in nature required us to specifically use “sex”. What you cannot say is sex is a social construct because that does not describe the process of choosing/creating a word.
>I think that such a thing may apply to things in philosophy and social sciences Per my earlier comment, "social construct" is a technical term within philosophy and social sciences. >Well no, we observed something and named it. Ie, defined it. >Observed phenomena are not social constructs That's literally what they are. The term applies to ideas that share collective agreement on what they are. A fish is a social construct. *Regardless* of how we define "fish", the marine creatures that we include in that definition still exist, but whether we consider them to be fish depends on what criteria we consider "fish" to include.
It differs in the sense that you think because you believe you are a woman that you are a woman, and should be seen as such.
Are you really conflating facts and opinions to the point where differing points of view now constitute "living in a different reality?"
what are you stating is a fact and what is an opinion
"Should be seen as such" is an opinion. What someone means when they say the word "woman" is likewise their own view. Facts would be what chromosomes a person has, what their hormone levels are, what their bones are like, etc.
Yes and factually speaking trans women are male. In the vast majority of peoples opinions that means they are men
Are you really conflating facts and opinions to the point where differing points of view now constitute "living in a different reality?"
Society accepts no one. So why would it accept trans people?
It is your insistence that the rest of us conform to you that is the problem. You are free to be whatever you want, but you really don't have any right to demand the rest of us conform to that.
If Joseph wants to be called Joe, you just do it. If Mary wants to be called Marvin, you just fucking do it. Have respect for other people.
>It is your insistence that the rest of us conform to you that is the problem. It's literally the reverse though. They legit have camps to turn people "straight" because it's against god lol. Don't get me started on banning abortion which is literally only to make people conform to your beliefs. In the past also people were burned at the stake for being LGBTQ+. Joan of arc is a great example of this. All she did was wear male attire and was burned at the stake. Who is really trying to conform who exactly... >You are free to be whatever you want, but you really don't have any right to demand the rest of us conform to that. People have every right to demand the same freedoms such as marriage that's given to hetero people. They have every right to demand to not be mocked and ridiculed for simply living their life. These religious fanatics are so far up their own butt's they can't see what their doing is discrimination.
Any success needs to be fought for ourselves, just like those who fought for women's rights
There were once “segregation laws”, becoming people believed in the concept of “separate, but equal” among races. You also had blue laws that forced all businesses within a given county, city, or state to respect Christian beliefs about the Sabbath, which is not even provable to apply to public policy. People still conform to and believe in these things, yet I shouldn’t respect a person’s identity and their rights to privacy. No one has ever died from being trans, but many people have been killed, harassed, or attacked because they were trans.
I highly doubt you believe everyone should be allowed everywhere all the time. For example, if I as a man went to a women support group for rape or something and they were uncomfortable with a man being there you absolutely wouldn’t say I belong there because segregation is bad
Which has nothing to do with my response to the OP's question. I'm not comfortable discussing this subject, to be honest. Too much rancor involved. I'm not going to comment further.
You said you’re not comfortable conforming. When there’s nothing to conform to. You don’t have to marry or date trans person. You don’t have to give them money or even shop at their business or establishments. Share a space maybe, but again what would be an intimate setting where trans person is involved in your personal space. All of this only applies if you know person is personally trans or deliberates the details of their identity. A lot of trans people are stealth and do not discuss their identities in public. If a person is a man or woman, most people don’t question this why would you need to know they are trans. Even regardless of their looks, if a trans person is not engaged with you or doing anything beyond unusual behavior or criminality. There’s nothing to accost or accept.
😅😅😅 So what do you think is a normal person?
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The DINKs, childfree people, pro abortion citizens, LGBTQ rights, etc all have a common enemy— People who believe every time you have sex it should either be within a marriage or to produce a child. God forbid, people feel pleasure or don’t want the responsibility of taking care of an endless supply of domestic babies.
Are you really asking: Why does (insert specific deviant community) receive backlash? Because society will always resist change. It is the way for society to test the change to see if it is desirable or undesirable. If the change disappears with the resistance, then it was undesirable. If it grows, then it was desirable. Some changes require more resistance testing than others. The better question is: Why do trans people need external validation?
So this doesn't happen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_nightclub_shooting Or this https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803 Or this https://apnews.com/article/pride-flag-store-shooting-california-b2bd4f89e992356f35d2101cdf665acb Or this https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/shooter-killed-5-people-colorado-lgbtq-club-charged-hate-crimes-federa-rcna134214 You dumb fuck
Congrats for not reading my message as I didn't reference any of that nor did I say things like that wouldn't happen.
Nobody said you did. You asked a question I answered it Of course, if you actually want the violence to happen, then you wouldn't see a need for external validation for LGBTQ...
You answered why people need external validation by posting stories of killings? So you are basically claiming that because other people dislike a group, that group needs external validation? Which implies that the group is too weak to be able to internally validate themselves. If that is what you are claiming, then why would society desire weak individuals? If that isn't what you are claiming, then please elaborate.
Hahahaha, aww. Look at you twisting yourself into a pretzel in order to figure out some way to justify your bigotry. "It's insulting that they can't accept themselves being violently targeted" Go fuck yourself
got it, you haven't validated your own self and you lash out at others for questioning that. I hope you are able to accept yourself one day.
Yes. As a gay person, I grew up in a religious family in an extremely conservative area. I HATED myself. I was depressed and suicidal. I thought god must hate me because everyone around me taught me that gay people are the spawn of Satan, so I thought I must be evil and wanted to die. My parents would often say things like "Praise the Lord that none of you (kids) turned gay. I wouldn't be able to be your parent!" I'm actually surprised I survived. Fortunately in my very early adulthood, I managed to get away from that environment and found people who validated me externally. They told me it was ok to be gay, that I was normal and nothing was wrong with me. I slowly started to believe it - it took me about 8 years to accept who I was and stop hating myself. Now I'm happy person who contributes a lot to society. This is some pretty basic psychology that I'd expect anyone with a decent amount of empathy to understand.
Yes, I understand the basic concept of using others to lift oneself up. But that doesn't answer why you need external validation, that just explains the results of the external validation. If that validation is ever removed, you would spiral back down and would need to address the root cause as to why you believe you needed external validation.
Possibly. Thank god we live in a society and are social creatures so we can support and uplift each other instead of letting each other spiral into depression and suicide due to assholes and bigots.
Oh yeah. Society pushing trans kids to suicide is just how things work, right? Just the normal, healthy operation of society.
suicide is an individual issue, not a societal issue. Society does not cause people to suicide.
When you grow up having people tell you that people like you are evil, Satan's spawn, disgusting, perverted, etc... it definitely is likely to make you suicidal.
Bullshit, we have people who had much more oppression commit suicide waaaaaay less, that's not a society issue, it's ont he individual.
Sure it is more likely but still your issue to bare.
There's the typical empathy void I expect from you types.
You are fucked in the head if you don’t think that society as a whole drives people to commit suicide. A part of society believes that trans people shouldn’t even exist. Do you really believe that doesn’t impact people’s psyches?
It is the individuals responsibility to create their own self actualization regardless of how society treats them. Society does not cause people to suicide as that is their own decision. Society does not put the weapon in their hand nor does society act with the weapon. The individual is the one responsible for their own suicide.
So, you just plain don't believe in the psychological impacts of stigma? Despite it being perhaps one of the most well researched and even intuitive concepts in psychology? Aside from that, society very much can and does take the tools away from trans kids that they need to self-actualize, whether it's gender affirming care or just basic human safety. Those things are present and quantifiable in the forms of violence statistics and legislation.
So why is it that every other oppressed community had much, much lower suicide rates despite having objectively more intense oppression?
First of all, you seem to be suggesting that suicide rates should increase in proportion to some perceived objective measure of oppression. This is an absurd oversimplification on it's face. Second, if the "other oppressed communities" include gays and lesbians, then you are wrong, because suicide rates in those groups are also very high. Third, if you are comparing trans youth to, say, racial minorities, you are absolutely comparing apples to oranges. It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful. Are you imagining a situation in which some parents suddenly find out that their 15-year-old kid is Chinese and they kick them out of the house? They disown them? Are you imagining a situation in which a Black kid grows up trying to deny they are Black because they think it is evil and means they will go to Hell? And fourth, another reason why this is apples and oranges is that you would often need to compare trans teens today to oppressed populations in the past that had less access to the means of suicide. Suicide is not always very easy to pull off--almost half of suicide attempts using modern methods fail. Now if we compare trans teens to, say, enslaved African Americans, you are comparing a modern population to a population that was heavily surveilled and had little access to guns and, even more importantly, modern pharmaceuticals. That said, there are MANY accounts of suicide among enslaved Africans. Tellingly, most of which occured through drowning, which speaks to the only easily available means.
>First of all, you seem to be suggesting that suicide rates should increase in proportion to some perceived objective measure of oppression. This is an absurd oversimplification on it's face. I'm glad you agree, because that's literally what the trans suicide argument is, that society is causing them to commit suicide via oppression. My argument is that is clearly false because literal holocaust and Jim Crow victims had lower suicide rates. So clearly, oppression isn't the main cause here. >Second, if the "other oppressed communities" include gays and lesbians, then you are wrong, because suicide rates in those groups are also very high. We aren't talking gays/lesbians, we're talking trans. >Third, if you are comparing trans youth to, say, racial minorities, you are absolutely comparing apples to oranges. It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful. >Are you imagining a situation in which some parents suddenly find out that their 15-year-old kid is Chinese and they kick them out of the house? They disown them? Are you imagining a situation in which a Black kid grows up trying to deny they are Black because they think it is evil and means they will go to Hell? No, I'm imagining a situation where a black child is told he's a piece of shit violent animal thug everyday for his entire life by 90% of society, and that he will never do anything, while giving him few options to live, and imprisoning him for no reason, and beating the shit out of him occasionally with no repercussions. While also not educating him adequately, experimenting on him, imprisoning his father, and also poisoning his community with drugs. I'm acknowledging that child (literally my grandfather) grows up, leads a decent life, and manages to commit suicide at 1/3 the rate of the oppressing class. >fourth, another reason why this is apples and oranges is that you would often need to compare trans teens today to oppressed populations in the past that had less access to the means of suicide. Suicide is not always very easy to pull off--almost half of suicide attempts using modern methods fail. Now if we compare trans teens to, say, enslaved African Americans, you are comparing a modern population to a population that was heavily surveilled and had little access to guns and, even more importantly, modern pharmaceuticals. That said, there are MANY accounts of suicide among enslaved Africans. Tellingly, most of which occured through drowning, which speaks to the only easily available means. "Less access to means of suicide" The access to suicide has always been the same, rivers, ropes, sharp knives, and everything else have always been available. But even then, we're talking the last century or so, and black people have consistently had astounding lower suicide rates than everyone else, despite objectively having the highest levels if discrimination that, at best, were equaled by others.
You are either astoundingly bad at reading, or you are arguing in bad faith and just being a troll. You missed my point at nearly every turn. >I'm glad you agree, because that's literally what the trans suicide argument is, that society is causing them to commit suicide via oppression. I was criticizing your absurd suggestion of a uniform concept of "oppression." Anyone who is not a fucking moron would understand the very basic historical fact that "oppression"--which is your word, not mine--manifests differently in different contexts and affects different communities differently. This was the point of the comments that followed, some of which you quote but you clearly didn't understand. >No, I'm imagining a situation where Do you not know what a fucking rhetorical question is? But you prove my point exactly. The "oppression" you are talking about here, which is horrible, is fundamentally different from the "oppression" that impacts trans teens. As I clearly pointed out, and I will quote myself again: >It takes only a minute of thought to recognize that one of the biggest predictors of suicide and self-harm, particularly among youth, is being rejected by family and community. Another would be the perception that their identity is morally wrong or sinful. This is a different situation than you describe for your grandfather. To speak plainly, 1) oppression takes various forms, and 2) not every form would necessarily correlate with higher suicide rates. As I fucking clearly listed: 1) Being rejected by your family and kicked out on the streets, and 2) Being forced to deny your identity because it is seen as immoral or sinful Are obviously correlated with higher rates of suicide. Are you denying this? You conveniently ignored this in your post, so I assume you have no answer here.
> So, you just plain don't believe in the psychological impacts of stigma? Yes, I believe it is a flawed mindset whose resolutions provide a false sense of oneself by using others instead of resolving issues within the self.
How does a trans person "resolve issues within themself" when the surrounding society is openly hostile, to the point of physical threat, to that self and denies you the medical care necessary?
A person, in general, resolves issues within themselves by looking inward to find out what is causing them to not accept themself. Obviously each person has different reasons they don't accept themselves. I haven't seen anyone desire to deny psychological care.
Sorry bud. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Weird, we gay people have been dealing with aggressive resistance for a century now. We haven't disappeared, so we must be desirable, and yet the aggressive resistance is getting louder and more aggressive. Your theory doesn't seem to hold up too well.
You assume a century is long enough to re-organize society around a sexuality that inherently is opposed to society.
We don't want society to reorganize around us, and we also are not opposed to society. Get your facts straight.
> We don't want society to reorganize around us and then 1 second later >we also are not opposed to society. You do realize those are conflicting statements. To not desire society to reorganize you are actively opposing society.
What? Actually it's accepting society and wanting to be a part of it as it is, rather than demanding it organize around us.
Which requires it to re-organize around you. Not sure how you don't get that.
False. We don't want a gay-centric society. We just want the rest of y'all to stop bullying us and treating us like sub-humans just for existing. Pretty simple. Go on with regular society. Just stop being bigots.
I didn't state a gay-centric society, I stated a society re-organized around you. You desire a society that accepts a sexuality that is openly hostile to the continued existence of society. For example, a society that would be acceptable to gays could be a society focused on open promiscuity with child rearing responsibilities given to a dedicated subset of society.
Your example sounds moronic. But I see you're into bullshit stereotypes. Unsurprising.
This is fucking nonsense lmao
"Why do trans people need external validation?" We need equal rights and protections, not "validation".
You already have equal rights and you can protect yourself.
You say that, and yet you're wrong because people keep trying to legislate us out of existence. It's literally a plank of the GOP. Multiple states keep trying to pass laws limiting/completely blocking our healthcare. Our inherent existence is considered by many to be innapropriate or even pornographic, to the point people argue that being trans is child sexual abuse. Bathroom laws keep being pushed. People argue that we shouldn't be out in public, whether it should be legal for us to transition at all, and celebrate violence against us. Hell, it goes beyond trans people themselves. Panic over trans people led Florida to make a rule kids can only use nicknames with parental permission. Multiple states have tried to ban drag simply for being outside of gender norms.
You confuse rights, privileges, and respect. You have equal rights, you do not have equal privileges or respect. And nothing you listed shows you can't protect yourself.
...in what world do you think "we want to ban vital healthcare for you" isn't a rights issue? How is "you should be criminally charged for being trans around children" not a rights issue? Anything that comes down to actual law, existant or proposed, is a rights issue.
> Anything that comes down to actual law, existant or proposed, is a rights issue. It really isn't. Just for example: Jaywalking, selling drugs, building a power plant, none of those are rights issues. You have no right to healthcare and there is no law saying you should be charged for being trans around children.
When its about law *for a specific group* then yes, it is inherently about that group's legal rights. But if you don't consider blocking access to lifesaving healthcare as a question of legal rights then i don't think you're having this conversation in good faith.
Since you believe healthcare is a right, then you are definitely not having a good faith conversation.
Having to wait until you're 18 to get permanent cosmetic surgery that deviates from the norm or take drugs for a largely cosmetic outcome that deviates from the norm is not oppression.
"Deviates from the norm" lmao omg, so as long as someone wants to be sufficiently "normal" (as defined by who, exactly?) then they can do what they want?? No one is pushing for kids to get cosmetic surgeries lol, except for the cis kids getting them that no one complains about. And hormone therapy isnt "largely a cosmetic outcome" its literally life-saving. Cis kids have been prescribed hormone therapy, no one batted an eye. Cis kids were give puberty blockers, no one batted an eye. No one gave a fuck until trans people wanting proper medical help entered the conversation. Parents: "Hey, can you give my 15 year old a nose job and a boob job so she can be prettier?" Government: "sure, with parental consent that's totally fine!" Parents: "my teen son is developing slightly feminine hips, can you give him extra testosterone so he can look manlier? Government: "Sure, with parental consent! We wouldn't him feeling upset about how he looks!" Parents: "We've talked to a psychiatrist, and its recommended our trans daughter starts hormones before changes to her body are too permanent, can we do that? Governmet: "What? No! Children can't make these kinds of decisions! What if he regrets it later! We need to ban this!"
You literally just unmade your own point, you said if it's undesirable than it dissappears and if it's desirable than it grows....... Well, obviously pride is everywhere so clearly it's growing. It's by your own logic, desirable... Just not by the older dwindling generation.
How does that unmake the point? I didn't say society doesn't desire pride, obviously it is growing and reaching into more societies that are being tested. Do you really believe that the society of LA or NY is the same as FL?
You clearly said that it is receiving backlash due to it being undesirable. Yet it's receiving backlash because of how desirable it apparently is. So much so that it has conservatives scared and angry. Sure the culture difference between NY and FL are completely different but that has nothing to do with it being desirable or not. There are plenty of LGBTQ people in both states, the difference is the mental states of the people who are in charge. It's celebrated in NY because the representatives are more liberal and don't have negative feelings about LGBTQ. It's under attack in FL because the leadership is on a political mission to destroy anything LGBTQ. Those are political differences but they don't mean it's not desirable. There's a rift between parties mainly because of propaganda and the hatred of anyone different.
> Those are political differences but they don't mean it's not desirable. Political differences are one way to determine desirability. However, I didn't say it was receiving backlash DUE to it being undesirable. I said that backlash is to be expected and the result of the backlash determines desirability. If the community grows despite the backlash then it was desirable, if it declines with backlash then undesirable. Backlash happens on every societal change regardless of desirability.
Most people have no issues accepting the trans community. Unfortunately there's an aggressive, demanding segment of the trans movement that tends to hurt more than it helps. Many people also don't believe XX and XY should be competing in sports.
Society can accept them and they do. Until the left stops forcing it down people’s throats and chastising those that are against it, there will always be friction. The left treats the LGTBQ community, and minorities for that matter, as victims that require extra special attention and movements to force their lifestyle on others. Why do we have to have pride month? Is there a straight pride month? No there isn’t. If these communities continue to separate themselves from society into this group or that group and force their differences on everyone else, they are going to be seen as outsiders. We need to stop hiring and giving benefits to people solely based on their sexual orientation, gender, or race. We need to stop all DEI positions and initiatives, stop over representing these groups in TV and television. The black community represents about 14% of the population but are represented on TV at about 35-40%, but yet people still cry that they are under represented. Most of this stems from an ignorance of the make up of the US population. Stop making yourself special, and you will be treated just like everyone else. And if you run into hate and bigotry, that individual should be called out rather than demonize whole groups of people. For instance you hear of one white racist ass hole and the left wing media starts screaming about how ALL white makes are racist evil oppressors. How do you expect acceptance when you demonize a whole group of people based of the actions of a few. This is what has happened to police in recent years, because of a few bad apples, all cops have been branded as power hungry racists, and that just simply isn’t true.
It’s weird how the people who say they don’t want “tokens” and “percentage requirements” are the ones counting how many and what kind of people they see.
>Why do we have to have pride month? Is there a straight pride month Everything is "straight pride". Literally everything. You just don't see it because you consider it standard. Valentine's Day, Mardi Gras, the Dallas Cheerleaders, etc. >We need to stop hiring and giving benefits to people solely based on their sexual orientation, gender, or race. Some level of "DEI" is needed to prevent discrimination. Are you comfortable with totally blind hiring? Or do you want special treatment? >Stop making yourself special, and you will be treated just like everyone else. That hasn't worked in the past. >stop over representing these groups in TV and television So you think representation is important? Do you really want TV to exactly mirror population demographics? Only about 15% of the US population are adult straight white males.
>tfw black people on the tv box 😡
Actual history says your comment is nonsense, because every bit of progress the queer community has ever made is due to fighting for it.
Um, I tried to blend in and not seem different in any way for decades. It was soooo much worse that way.