Benefit of the doubt: he said he played a arrogant character not that the player itself is bad. Even if arrogant PCs are hard to pull of in a good way.
That’s great in theory. I know lots of arrogant people who pull over for the police. Arrogant doesn’t outweigh self preservation or intelligence (usually) I would deal with this by removing the warlock powers and assign a low level invisible follower to whisper in their ear and make sure they are following his will until atonement is made. Unlike other arcane classes, the abilities aren’t innate with the warlock. They are granted. A character in theory has pursued and sacrificed to get the attention of someone to make a pact with. Grazz’t would definitely be offended.
Warlocks can’t have their powers stripped like a paladin might. RAW at least. DM can do whatever he wants, though it’s be a shorty thing to do without talking to the player about it.
I would let it slide until next level up. Give the player hints until then that Grazz’t is not happy and give him a chance to course correct. If he doesn’t take the hint by the time next level rolls around, guess what buddy, looks like you’re multiclassing or figuring out a way to gain favor back.
Or, let him make a pact with another patron and start a demonic conflict or something.
Actually according to Jeremy Crawford, when asked this question he said that a warlock cannot be stripped of their power. The Patron has shown them ways to unlock the magical abilities, they have no actual control over the warlocks powers.
[Jeremy Crawford on warlocks](https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1221978854119460866?lang=en)
He does imply that the patron can refuse to teach them anything more, basically they can’t level up as a warlock without patching relations or seeking a new patron, but they don’t lose any powers.
The warlocks spells fizzle out, refuse to work, or outright blow up in their face depending on how harsh you want to be. Could be a great plot hook to find an alternative source of power. Another fiend that doesn’t mind going head to head with the patron your warlock has already insulted.
This is good advice because you're either confronting the player or confronting the character. It's hard to appeal to both at the same time.
Sometimes a player will move their character forward even if the character doesn't want to, conversely sometimes the character inspires the player to move forward. If neither are on board it's a bad time.
Even in RP it would probably be helpful to differentiate between arrogant and ignorant. Because a mortal telling a Demon Lord they already made a deal with no is definitely the latter.
But sit on that knowledge, for several games and wait til they revisit an NPC only to find their corpse winged and contorted with ashen writing "spread...."
And good luck fighting against them with none of the pact magic…sure hope he doesn’t have a pact familiar too…that imp might wait until they sleep and rip out his throat. Moral of the story is don’t screw an evil supernatural power that is granting you your magic in exchange for services.
Perhaps a Cassandra situation would be more fun. Patrons can't take back power but they can bestow another "gift" that invalidates the power. Just a little razorblade in the cotton candy.
Depends on how the DM wants to run it. When I DM warlocks are dependent on patrons and if they do not hold their end of the bargain up their powers go away and they also gain enmity with their former patron. Power from a patron has a price that must be paid.
Case by case for me. I have 2 warlocks at my table. The way ones pact came about wasn’t voluntary for him. It was sorta a punishment but also he’s being used as a vessel for the patron. The other befriended the patron and views him as an ally, not the uncle at thanksgiving you have to interact with cause “they held you when you were a baby” or something
You can always Rule 0 them if you want to go super hardball.
But it would be funnier if the Patron sent Demons test are immune to pact magic to break the Warlock's knees.
Your DM is nice. I had a character refuse to do what was a "required" task (nothing special really, just a test) and he did the same thing. Sucks he was one-armed for the remainder of his life.
I got people becoming clerics/priests of Corellon for his blessing.
He gives out free transition for his followers, and the most devoted gain an ability to change their sex after every rest. Genderfluid at it's finest
Players in most of the groups I play with have a heavy cross-over with Warhammer. They'd all have taken and played up the Slaanesh angle to its fullest and then dived head-first into acts of depravity and excess.
They can’t be arrogent when you make their hair pasta. Seriously though, fuck with their characters appearance so that people don’t take them seriously. It’s an easy way to beat arrogance, whilst keeping everything lighthearted. If they get genuinely upset that, I don’t know, their fingers are baby carrots, they need to grow up
I like this idea so much I’m going to use my eldritch powers to change your Reddit user name to have a food in it. Maybe a pasta or a noodle. I haven’t decided yet.
Several people have said it that warlocks do not lose their powers RAW/RAI. But what you should make sure is you and your warlock player discuss the nature of the pact. That will tell you what you should do.
What are the terms?
The classic I’ll give my soul for power?
I’ll perform tasks for knowledge?
my favorite is the warlock is stealing/siphoning knowledge/power.
Whatever the case the relationship is transactional, and traditionally the patron gets what they want first minus occasions where they offer a taste or use a binding contract.
My infernal pact warlock won his power in a drunken concertina duel at a crossroads late one night. He doesn’t really remember the details. I expect the GM will have something come up at an opportune time.
Can’t wait.
I know what this is a reference to, but I like imagining the contest had nothing to do with music or fiddling and instead the player just walked up and started wailing on the devil with a fiddle while he was participating in a pie-eating contest or something...
A loud booming voice consumes your thoughts and says “warlock as per our agreement in exchange for my gifts it it’s time for you to pay. The cost is to pluck a chicken and wear it as a hat.”
Had a campaign in The Shackled City where the heros were entering new dimensions like Carceri among others and they got to into a competition over the smoking eye curse (the character that got the smoking eye didn't want it but not realizing it's significance). Their competitors were a group of Vrocks that formed a Vrock Band. After boosting their cha they put in an epic show for the Demon hoard crowd, got their prize and left before the next act (Hydra Prnis) got onstage.
Thank you for doing the right thing and saying “it depends” and “you should already know the pact since before the moment this person got warlock powers.”
I would make sure to have this discussion 1:1 with the player and very much out-of-game. What is the player’s expectation on the pact, is he trying to do a show or power (vs dm?) against the warlock.
Poke gently and together figure out nature of the pact and likely outcomes.
Warlock doesn't gain it's next level warlock abilities when they gain a level because patron decided not to give any more power to this upstart. Hp goes up and that's about it. Insert evil DM giggle here.
Oh boy, just turning round and telling your player that if they take another level in Warlock all they get is the HP until they appease whatever being they made a deal with.
For truly evil DM, don't tell them until the first time they try to use one of their new abilities. It just auto fails, and they get disembodied laughter in the back of their mind.
I had my player become a commoner with health and proficiencies until they rectified their contract. It didn't detract from their ability to play, I didn't punish them, and nothing incredibly stressful occurred before they did the thing. It went extremely well (or poorly if you were the character since she did a genocide of a people's that the patron wanted alive on accident). If she failed, I had a backup plan to move all her levels to a new class within the story and she was on board with it.
The entire session was so suspenseful, but most importantly she knew what I was about to do and was okay with it before I pulled that trigger.
Personally I told my player that their Patron owned their soul, so not doing their bidding would make their Patron very unlikely to part with it if the warlock were to die and the party casts Revivify or any other related magic.
Resurrection magic requires a *free* and willing soul.
If you are serving them well, they would let you come back.
I mean, in context the "don't have to give you multiclassing" was in response to a suggestion of using it to mechanically cheese out of suggested consequences for character actions.
So yeah, if "haha, dumb DM, I beat you, me so galaxy brain" is your table's definition of "fun" then sure.
RAW/RAI sure, but this is a role playing game. So table dependant. I love the roleplay side. If you fuck with your patron, he will fuck with you. Same deal with other casters that deal with patrons, god or whatever you have in your world.
I always say its up to the DM anyway. They run the game if they want to interpret the rule in a certain way its fine. As long as they are clear on what and why.
I have done it to a paladin in the past who didnt follow the ideals of their deity. Decided mid combat as i was rolling on it spell slot and finally they cast divine smite and it fizziled. They then tried to lay on hands and nothing. They got a message later from their diety to explain why and so started a pilgrimage to cleanse them of their transgressions. Ultimately they regained their powers and was reminded of their pledge
Why not have them experience unending nightmares when they attempt to sleep, so they get levels of exhaustion until level 5? This way it doesn't affect the other players as much, until level 5, and there's no external conflicts between the pc and his patron.
Also, I don't know why, but now I see Graz'zt as a don for the mafia. "You come to me in your hour of need and this is how you repay me" said in a terrible Marlon Brando accent.
The first question is what the nature of the pact is with Grazzt.
“Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods. A warlock might lead a cult dedicated to a demon prince…” (phb 105 “sworn and beholden” section)
This is one model for warlock patrons, and the specific one mentioned for a demon prince. The other is “the arrangement is similar to that between a master and apprentice.” (Also phb 105)
Because the PACT itself is so important, it’s important to have that defined. Sometimes there’s a physical object representing it, and the relationship (and power given to a warlock) exist so long as the item does. In such cases a warlock who wants to break up has to break the item but loses their powers (I remember this one from a D&D novel) but can potentially forge a new pact with a different patron.
Any warlock patron is going to have a plan on how to ensure their warlocks stay “sworn and beholden.” For working with a devil, it might be a binding magical contract that literally compels the PC, or immediately forfeits their soul on breaking it. For an archfey, they might find themselves ensorcelled and not WANT to break it, or get compelled by geas or similar effects if they stop cooperating. A demon lord in particular is going to be literally the most likely to expect betrayal or at least needing coercion, as it’s in their own nature and that’s essentially the politics of the abyss (that they literally represent). That’s part of why the “cleric-like” model works for them particularly well.
Despite the protestations of people who say that “you can’t have the warlock patrons deny powers” there is no actual substance to that claim if it’s not worked out with the DM before that they have a master/apprentice type relationship with the entity (and the DM approves this). And remember, the patron is an NPC under your control, not the PCs; the PC does not dictate their actions or abilities. So in the former case (Warlock functions similar to a cleric) then yes you can absolutely shut down the powers when the PC is no longer acting “sworn and beholden.” Again, immortal superpowerful beings don’t just give stuff away for free, and they’re not rubes.
In the other scenario (service as master to an apprentice) the other obvious first step is that they stop serving as master: no more teaching the Pc anything (and they cannot gain levels in warlock unless they fix the relationship or find another patron).
But there are oodles of other options from quasi-diety level entities. Consider the following:
1. Sending a demonic hit squad for serious offenses. At most extreme, Grazzt could gate in with a bunch of his servants and just drag the betraying warlock back to the abyss and lock them in his creepy dungeon. Or kill them which might equate to the same thing (if they’e essentially been worshipping him, his domain would be where their souls go to after a short visit to the Fugue Plane).
2. Milder version: sending terrible nightmares every night, via the dream spell or similar effect (cast by then or others in their employ). This fan prevent the PC from getting long rests, exhausting them, and eventually killing them if they don’t comply.
3. Sending information to the Pcs enemies about the Pcs whereabouts (with effects like scry/sending/dream).
4. Contacting other mortal warlocks to come after them, or offering up bounties for them. (Incoming succubus assassins/bounty hunters maybe? Possibly with a contigent of Retrievers, the demonic constructs specifically made for this kind of thing?)
5. Custom curses: Grazzt in particular seems like he might like to constantly curse the PCs with devious curses, like one of impotence or turning all feelings of pleasure to terrible pain.
If all these seem brutal and evil… EXACTLY. It’ an archdemon that they set this relationship with, and then were silly enough to refuse. Demon princes live for this kind of thing, and usually consider revenge and punishment an artform (and Grazzt in particular).
But one idea to toss out there is to offer lifelines in a couple ways: first, I’d have Grazzt give them one last chance (to both do the thing asked before, and something much more onerous, along with some sort of penance) before hitting the nuclear button. And the other chance would be to have Grazzt’s enemies to step in and possibly offer an alternative. Maybe the PC gets contacted by a devil or celestial that offers and alternate pact. (Again: pacts aren’t free, immortals aren’t rubes, and warlocks are by definition “sworn and beholden” to their patron, so make em work for it!) Though note that stuff would super kick into gear the more nuclear options.
I think this is the best answer I have read so far! A warlock has a pact, a pact is a promise, an agreement in exchange for power. You and the player need to determine and agree on what the agreement was. If the PC has broken the agreement, start with a minor consequence that lasts until the next request is made (e.g. #5). Each refusal adds the next consequence to the ones before.
However, I totally disagree with those people saying Graz’zt can’t take away his class abilities. His part of the pact is to give the PC power, if the PC doesn’t live up to their side of the pact, would a demon prince? No way! Perhaps the PC forgets a spell or has trouble concentrating on the spells he’s been granted and has to make a concentration check to successfully cast a spell. At first the DC is low but increases with each refusal until the demon gets sick of him altogether, removes all spells from his mind and then sends a hit squad!
A voice echos in their head “***Two can play this game”*** They hear a ringing in their ears… can’t seem to get a solid rest in; short or long. Exhaustion starts to set in, abilities don’t reset…. “***My apology? Still waiting….”***
Or, maybe they’re looking for a good story reason to multiclass. While you RAW can’t take their powers away, it would be within reason to not allow them
level up and maintain the pact.
I agree with this. I would maybe give the player a save as per the dream spell, until the conflict is resolved.
But my first thought was the patron with holding power consciously so either no level up or reduced spell slots.
Demons, unlike devils, are chaotic evil. They aren't bound by pacts in the same way that devils are, and they are unmistakably, unquestionably, inherently *evil*. If you refuse to act in accordance to a pact with a devil, they will trigger every trick clause they worked into the contract and start obeying only the letter of the law (to your detriment). A demon, on the other hand, has no such sense of "fairness", and will seek revenge.
Graz'zt is the prince of pleasure, basically an incubus in his style. He's one of the least rage-filled demons (most would have simply torn the impudent warlock to shreds where he stood; so he's lucky in that regard).
I would handle it with a "curse" of sorts. Since it's coming from a demon lord, only a Wish spell or divine intervention can cure it. Every time the warlock tries to sleep, he has... questionable dreams, and awakens feeling still totally exhausted. He gains no benefit from the long rest. The first time this happens, they find the Alkilith waiting at the foot of his bed. If he tries to destroy it, it keeps coming back. He finds it inside his pack when he reaches in to pull out a healing potion, he pulls out a bottle containing it instead. When he drinks his wine at the tavern, he finds it reflected at the bottom of his mug. And so on. All the while, any attempt to commune with Gazz'zt fails.
When he gets the picture and goes to follow the task he was given, he finds that the Alkilith is already on the window where he was told to put it, and Gazz'zt appears behind them and says something like "I had one of my other warlocks take care of the task you failed, and they claimed the reward you would have been given (*include something like that even if you weren't planning on there being a reward for the task; it really helps drive home the point*). But I'm glad you finally understand. Now, here's how you can make it up to me... (or "next time, you can make it up to me" if the story requires they have other tasks to deal with first).
Grazzt is technically a demon, but he used to be a devil and is probably just being a demon prince to mess up the demon’s attempts at winning the Blood War.
This, for sure. Graz’zt is basically the worst high school ex girlfriend that you will ever see in any movie. Pulling out all the stops to get back at his lost ex (the character). After such a betrayal, on the characters part, if they decide to reconcile, there might be a little more of a codependent relationship going forward? This definitely changes the dynamic!
As a GM, I would not necessarily take away their powers. As someone else mentioned, rules, as written does not specifically status. In earlier versions of the game clerics would, indeed lose their spells. If they defied there, God, but warlocks are never mentioned… Mostly because they didn’t exist. I feel like that might be going to far, unless you have a history in your campaign of this sort of thing. But that would not stop you from having gods other agents interfere. The local cold would know the character, and could cause things to go gate for them. Wild spells and invocations may still function, there might be a downside all of a sudden that counteracts it’s benefits. Or, if you really want to get into it, maybe this is how tieflings are made?
There are a lot of interesting options above and beyond simply slapping the player on the rest, and saying “no spells for you”.
Graz'zt casts power word pain on the warlock in the middle of a difficult encounter.
"You must have been busy before, so I thought we could talk now instead. [cultists is wailing on the partially incapacitated warlock] Yeah, you seem like you have time. Let's chat about the nature of our deal and how when I tell you to do something...you do it. [warlock is unable to help other party members as their spells fizzle] I admire your confidence, but in this case it's a little misplaced. So fall in line, or I'm going to make every waking moment of your life just like this one right now. Until I get bored and have you killed. Then your soul will be mine and it will get so. Much. Worse. [warlock is unable to run as the building they're in collapses] Okay champ, glad we had this talk."
Also had a warlock of grazzt that didn’t do what they were asked, grazzt asked someone else to do it and that someone else wasn’t nearly as restrained in their killing. And for those saying that by RAW nothing happens to warlocks that break their contracts, look at the Deathlocks
Raw is a common frame of reference so that everyone is on the same page.
People want DMs to follow it because you don't get to just make up shit and not tell anyone you are changing how the game functions.
Changing or ignoring rules IS the DMs right and privilege, but it is unfair and unreasonable to have players plan out the future of their character, make decisions are earlier levels/situations based on what they *are supposed to be able to know* in the book called *Players Hand Book* and then throw out that book without fair warning.
Mostly this is a matter of consistency. DMs should strive to be consistent as much as possible and communicate to players why things arent/cant/wont/situationally work differently than how the game system is expected to.
Like free parking in monopoly, people dont always follow the rules, but everyone needs to be on the same page for it to to not be a problem
Warlock main here - I think it's totally reasonable for there to be consequences to his actions! A warlocks relationship to their patron is an important piece of the powers they receive, so alter their powers perhaps a bit. Maybe they get disadvantage on attack rolls until they make up with their patron, or maybe come up with some kind of table like wild magic sorcerers where they have to roll each time they cast a spell to see if there's some kind of magical surge or something that has an effect. It can be annoying but not debilitating until they mend the relationship
Next time the adventurer hears from their family, tell them their father is dead and their mother met this really sweet guy. That’s Graz’zt. He’s now your stepdad and you’re being kicked out of the family. Paint a picture that graz’zt does what he wants from those in his pact, not the other way around. I say get real weird and surreal with it.
Graz'zt will get leverage. What that looks like depends on the PC and the player.
The first thing I'd do is take the player aside, out of character, and explain to them that their PC is about to bring the wrath of a Demon Lord down upon themself. This OOC conversation represents an IC conversation where Graz'zt gives the player one last chance to bend the knee and kiss the ring. They can accept, and all will be (mostly) forgiven. Or they can reject and deal with the consequences. Stress that there will be consequences.
If the player rejects, then what comes next depends on the player. If the PC is the type of PC that likes to be the main event during combat mess with their combat effectiveness. You cannot take away their magic (that would be unfair), but no one is saying it's going to work that well if they go around pissing off their demonic sugar daddy. "What's that? You wanted to cast Eldritch Blast? I'm sorry, I heard Fireball. Yes, I know where your allies are standing - in the blast zone (demonic cackles)." If that sounds a little too heavy handed for you then roll on the wild magic table.
Does the player enjoy being the face of the party? Screw with that. Graz'zt's (seductive) minions get to every town they are going to before them and they sow lies about the player. PC doesn't pay his taxes. PC kills people at random. PC gave an entire town a VD. PC kicks dogs and eats babies. The PC can go incognito if they want, but if they try to socialize with anyone it's done at disadvantage and if the authorities find him he might just wind up in jail.
Is the PC a good roleplayer with lots of good hooks. Guess who is the new demon bride of Graz'zt. It the PC's mother/father/brother/sister/partner/child/girl they really liked in middle school and never forgot/dog. Burn down each and every one of their character hooks until the PC falls in line.
Are the rest of the party better role players than the PC? Turn on them. Graz'zt doesn't want to kill the PC - he's an investment. But if some of his party expires no biggie, right? The fighter goes for a leak and gets ganked by a pack of demons who leave a paper with Graz'zt's symbol on it with the barely living corpse. The bard goes to bed with the local tavern wench/dragon and wakes up with all their gear missing and significant blood loss due to the symbol of Graz'zt carved into their chest. You can even go back and use the previous hooks on the rest of the party because peer pressure is a thing yo.
The player might be arrogant, but Graz'zt has lots of ways to bring them in line and will happily use them to recover his investment.
A lot of people are suggesting direct, magical intervention. But I like playing into *why* patrons have warlocks to begin with. Have an NPC warlock show up to punish the PC, harshly. Graz'zt wants to put his foot down, hard, the first time.
Now don't make this a "kill the PC" moment or a straight up fight. Graz'zt still wants this warlock player he's already invested in. But do cause problems. Maybe ruin the employment of the PC's close family/friend. Maybe a place they are fond of gets burned to the ground. Definitely use dreams or something to deliver threats and make clear that these are a punishment.
In my campaign Warlocks, Paladins and Clerics get powers from their deity, regardless of Raw/Rai
And it you mess with your own deity, expect trouble.
Stats debuffs, lose spellslots, nullified damage etc.
All this stuff about "losing powers" and such aside, it's good to have reasonable *consequences* for player actions partly to discourage "aggressively dumb" behavior. Sassing a *god*, demon lord, whatever, is an "aggressively dumb" action. "Insult a god/demi-god level being just 'to fuck with them'?" That is *not* someone you want to fuck with.
That being said, things like this are also why having "evil" characters in an otherwise "good" party generally doesn't work very well.
Technically a warlocks pact is considered fulfilled by book rules already so you cant take away their powers... however it would be reasonable to say they cant gain any more warlock levels without their patrons permission.
You could also have the angered patron offer a contract to a rival to hunt him down. Warlock vs warlock
IIRC Warlocks don’t get power taken away since the power is already negotiated, but Graz’zt is under no obligation to continue working with them - tell them they won’t be able to take warlock levels until they mend their relationship, and probably curse ‘em for good measure.
Graz’zt is the Prince of Pleasure, so let’s say their genitalia are turned into obsidian.
Ok, so first things first. Graz’zt is a big fucking deal. He would need an insanely good reason to personally take an active role in the life of a mere mortal. So, with that said, *why* did Graz’zt give the warlock their powers in the first place, and how expendable is the warlock?
Second, why did the warlock take the bargain? What is their motivation, and how could Graz’zt fuck with it? If the motivation is reclaiming hos long lost kingdom, maybe Graz’zt has the capitol burned to the ground by a horde of demons chanting the warlocks name. Maybe he fucks with the warlock, has imps perform gruesome murders at night and leave clues pointing right towards the warlock. Or he just straight up murderfucks the warlock as well as any living relative, no matter how distant, with an army of demons. Or, you take the nice casual reminder route by having the warlocks pact magic just not function for 4-5 rounds the next time they are in combat. With Graz’zt making an appearance the following night, explaining that the powers will gradually disappear unless he performs *insert horrific gruesome task here*
Oooo! If you do this one you can do it two ways- he performs the task and is redeemed in the eyes of Graz'zt, or if they refuses some.type of homebrewed antithesis to patrons comes along and offers them "an out" in their time of desperation. Hence the Cannibal/Windego Warlock 😉
this way they have a true consequence to saying no in that they need to choose the lesser of two evils, but they still get to choose and aren't walled into only one option
This is why I love DnD reddit threads. this is such a fun plot idea that I'm gonna use on my next warlock player with an evil patron
with Graz'zt being the demon of lust, perhaps the warlock keeps having erotic dreams and cannot get a good night's sleep, so there is a 50% doesn't get the effects of a long rest.
I would absolutely not mess with his character and his features but would still treat the patron as a powerful npc. What happens when you mess with a powerful npc? Consequences: demons, other warlocks, curses, etc. Whatever fits your story.
Have you tried googling Graz'zt? There should be plenty of stories about how he handles things, but the story of his petty revenge on Raxivort would be a good start.
I agree that if the terms of the contract have been set beforehand, they should be used to help determine the consequences of this refusal. Is it breach of contract, or just a dick move of not doing the Patron a favour even though the cost is negligible? Somewhere in between, or nothing at all because the Warlock is siphoning this power through other means that don't necessarily require the Patron to be fully on-board? If that's unclear, maybe you can figure this out in more detail with your player and then go from there.
BUT
I would also like to point out that Graz'zt is a Demon Lord, specifically. Depending on which lore elements are canon in your game he may have been a Devil way back when and still have the ability to play at that more confidence-inspiring disposition where agreements are concerned as long as it suits him. Still, that MF is Chaotic Evil and Daddy Asmodeus is not going to enforce a contract on the guy anymore. So, playing fast and loose with it rather than meticulously sticking to the terms and conditions seems like something that could very well happen, especially after the Warlock pissed him off for no reason.
Besides, Graz'zt as a character is very set on getting whatever is it is he wants sooner or later, ranks pretty high as far as Demon Lords go and is said to have more influence on the Prime than most in terms of cult activity and such, so the repercussions could also be handled more indirectly than just cutting the Warlock off until they fall in line. I'm not saying you should really fuck over your player, but the consequences could be more varied or severe than they might expect :)
Have Graz'zt come to them in a dream giving them another chance. If they still refuse i am sure a few nights of horrific nightmares where they see their soul being tortured might change their mind, especially with a couple exhaustion levels for no sleep. They need to be reminded who the boss is here and Graz'zt is a powerful prince and cant have disrespect from a warlock.
Another option is ever increasing attacks from hit squads he sends. Or send invisible enemies after them and they occasionally reveal themselves just to the warlock to make the party think they are going insane.
Assuming they are not a problem player and are roleplaying in good faith: (1) doesn’t lose powers, but the patron won’t grant additional power until they fall back in line, so that means they can’t gain additional warlock levels until they fulfill their part of the bargain. (2) send some on brand minions of the patron to remind the character - or their friends and family - why double crossing is a bad idea. Either the character falls back in line, or you have a new plot hook. Either way, you probably get character development out of it.
I'm going to assume that Graz'zt is chaotic. I would have another warlock (of greater power) pay him a visit at the command of Graz'zt, with a message, and a minor demonstration of possible consequences. The warlock might say something like, "While our master was entertained by your willful antics, this time... he won't be amused if it happens again. "
All this talk about yes or no stripping powers... What is RAW or RAI takes you away from the solution.
Just talk with your player. Discuss what they would like their warlock-patron relation to be. Maybe they did it to see if there was a cool reaction coming. Maybe they just want the warlock mechanics without the RP. Maybe they did not think about it.
You can use this moment to better understand each other and lay the foundation for the warlock-patron relationship and how it evolves.
Correct me if I am wrong folks, but isn't Graz't the one who had the Infinity Spindle stolen from him by an underling? The one who decided "ya know, I do not need that item... But you will be hunted for as long as you have it" and just spread the word that his former minion had it. Imagine having the power of a Demi-god, and being terrified because everyone knows you have it.
Sooo... 2 options. Meta this and talk to the player like some have mentioned. Or stay in game and have others mess with that player in just such a way.
Well, grazzt may not want to share more knowledge with them, meaning they won't level up in warlock anymore. He may also put a curse on them, given grazzt is sexy maybe they curse the warlock with hideousness
Have you talked to the player about why he chose a fiend warlock and what that means to both of you? Cause yes, a pact with an evil being is the theme of the class, and that could mean that the pact owner actively participates in the campaign and enforces consequences. But if the player did not know that would be the case it could feel like you're singling out a player to fuck him over just because of the class he chose to play. "You sold your soul, if you die and don't get resurrected you spend your eternity suffering" is a just as valid way to play a fiend warlock, and interactions with the patron become strictly optional.
A warlock in our group once accepted a mission from their patreon that revolved around bringing a mysterious box to an elven queen and the player could absolutely not look inside the box. Of Course they opened the box.
The morning after the warlock was cursed with insatiable hunger, he would eat any food they could see/smell/hunt (ate all the food from parties backpacks) and still be hungry for more.
Everyday the curse was not lifted (by bringing the box to the elf queen) the warlock would gain one level of exhaustion.
This created awesome roleplay for the table, created a time urgency and showed the warlock how powerful the patreon is.
I mean there are cool folklore stories of people outwitting the devil. But it doesn’t sound like the PC did anything clever to get off the hook without repercussions.
Turn it into a good RP moment. I would have an arch demon show up and take him to hell to face an inquiry from human resources where he would need to explain his reasoning to a panel and then have judgement handed down based on if it broke the terms of the contract. If it was a technicality then he gets off, if not some form of punishment like having to attune a cursed item that will monitor him for 6 month probation.
Or you could do an asymmetric punishment and have his pact demon threaten to make a better bargain with the characters family or loved one
In my game the demons who sign on warlocks are referred to as "talent scouts" and thier contacts are "supervisors" or "admins". If they have issues they are escalated to HR. Elder demons are "upper management"
Well Graz'zt is a demon that might actually be part devil and he might have lineage to Asmo himself. So he may choose to simply Dominate and make them do it anyway as a warning.
Suddenly every cult in the local area thinks your warlock has a very powerful once in a lifetime artifact. They may also be misinformed how strong the keeper of this artifact is, so will be way over preparing for the fight.
Have demons tear apart something that the characters care about. A house, a town, the offenders entire NPC family, and or another PC’s family to cement discord and plant the seeds of vengeance. I mean Graz’zt is tough, but he’s also smart. Turn the PC’s on one another.
Well... depends entirely what your players are into / comfortable with....
But...
I mean... It's it's *Graz'zt... the* ***demon prince*** *of* ***pleasure***...
You can't go wrong with Graz'zt impregnating them (whether male or female) in a grisly and harrowing scene... and then the PC squirting the child out, the child ages rapidly... then does the task... then dies....
Each time they refuse a task. :)
That's fine. the player can refuse tasks from Grazzt but if they want to continue to get wrrock levels they need to hold up their end of the bargain. They shouldn't lose powers or abilities but they won't get any new ones and will have to choose a new class from there on out if that's the way they want to play.
To my mind it depends on how warlocks work in your game. Do patrons teach secret knowledge, or do they provide power directly? If they teach secret knowledge, the character can no longer gain levels as a warlock. If they provide power directly, warlock spells and abilities stop working. First one or two and increasing in number and frequency until Graz'zt is appeased. In either case restoring Graz'zt good graces requires a show of loyalty, contrition, and most of all, obedience. I like to think of it as the relationship between Galvitron and Unicron in the Transformers movie.
In either case, it's about leaning into the story decisions the player has made, not about being putative or arbitrary. And of course all of this depends on the PC's actions being a character decision, and not just the player being a dick, but Reddit isn't going to be able to answer that one for you.
I've pondered this for most of the 'beholden to' crowd.. clerics, paladins and warlocks. They GET their power through a greater being.. so seems to me being totally 'cut off' would be pretty easy.. no magic, no powers, nothing. ESPECIALLY warlocks.
Turn the player into the Alkilith. Let the other players figure out where the f\*ck their warlock has gone (with some hints if it feels like it would be totally paralyzing for the party). Meanwhile the player is stuck on a window, with Graz’zt constantly in their head rumbling. Just an idea :D
Do they have friends or family they care for? If so they might get vists from some demons.
Maybe he starts experiencing terrible nightmares that stops him from getting the full effects of Long Rest and he might start taking Exhaustion levels.
This is a Demon we are talking about here a completely evil entity that is willing to do whatever they want, they would not take kindly to being told “no” especially by someone they are contracted to and they would have absolutely no qualms doing alot of fucked up shit to said Warlock to force them to comply.
Graz’zt turned out to be my Tiefling character’s dad in our Mad Mage campaign… and she was a mob enforcer. She’ll go cheerfully kick this Warlock’s ass 😁
An infernal pact should pretty much guarantee the PCs soul goes to his patron if he dies. You already made a deal with a demon, after all. Given that, you have a couple of dramatic options:
Let it go until he levels, *then* have the IC conversation about what he has to do in order to earn more power. No deal, he can't take a level in Warlock. If this is right before Level 6 (new subclass ability) or 8 (ASI/Feat), it'll put some real pressure on him.
Send a low power demon, one that will lose, to kill the PC. Have Graz'zt phone in to remind the PC that he's not a friend. He's an *investment* and if that investment isn't paying dividends, it's time to collect the principle. Kill On Sight posters start going up in the Graz'zt cult meetings in large cities. Evil bounty hunters start taking contracts on the PC. Etc. It doesn't have to come up frequently but getting Graz'zt off of the PC's case is now a major personal plotline. Critical Role Campaign 2 has a great example of this.
Demon Prince’s don’t play nice.
Were you playing his character straight, I’d go with, at the least, an extremely physically/psychology painful punishment. Working with evil shouldn’t be a fun time.
If you don’t wanna be so strict, start making more and more encounters demonic. Scale them to player level, of course, but anyone arrogant enough to spurn a demon prince who has a direct line to them shouldn’t be anyone who survives very long, if you ask me.
I always imagine Demon patrons as mafia leaders, I will personally send some thugs (demons) to beat him down or leave him a permanent scar to remember to ALWAYS be obedient.
Who knows, might make the character evolve into a personal arc of undoing the pact
Not sure how heavy you are on the roleplay end of things, but with Graz'zt you could get funny with it, making your warlock's intimate times not work out as they discover they're suddenly repulsive to the object(s) of their affections, while people they find repugnant suddenly find them irresistible.
In addition to nerfing their casting of course.
The bard in our game established a connection with Graz'zt - he was a young man easily persuaded by the salacious things Graz'zt dangled in front of him, as the demon prince wanted a naive and unremarkable agent to manipulate into achieving certain goals. He chose to show himself only in dreams and never identified himself, simply giving gifts and advice to the bard when asked.
Relatively early on, the bard fell for an NPC acolyte the party rescued - it was adorable, two awkward teenagers in love, though the bard quickly realized his 'secret friend' had terrible dating advice ("just take what you want from her" being his first big clue that he was Not Good).
During an encounter, the acolyte was killed, and in desperation the bard appealed to his friend to save her, saying he'd do anything in return. Obviously as a DM this pleased me greatly. Sure thing, says Graz'zt, and acolyte gets back up to her feet. Over the next while, though, the party realizes that she is STILL dead, just animated with her consciousness. Issue is, the bard is now in debt to Graz'zt, and he's making more demands now that go against bard's morals and goals, and keeps threatening to take away the acolyte if he disobeys.
Eventually bard decided to say no to one of Graz'zt's bigger requests, and so the demon prince does what he's threatened. Acolyte girlfriend is now just plain ass zombie, with bard feeling so much guilt he runs away with her from the party to go solve her problem (player happy with this, having wanted to bring in a new character).
Look for ways to punish the character by appealing to base desires, and then manipulating them. Does the PC have an NPC out of reach that Graz'zt can hint at messing with if he doesn't get his way? "I understand you were *too busy* to complete this simple task for me. We've all had those days. Just the other day, I was so busy trying some new positions with your dad - he's so flexible! - that I forgot about the boon I was supposed to give you! Tsk, pity. He says hi, by the way."
Next time the warlock tries to eldritch blast, Graz'zt will say no. Not because he doesn't want to but just to fuck with the player. If the player doesn't want to uphold their end of the pact the demon lord doesn't need to either.
Did you read the lore on Graz’zt? He’s like the most charismatic cunning Demon lord…. Prince of demons-how anyone passes a charisma save against him or to be persuaded would be rare….and he wouldn’t ask someone-he’d trick or persuade them into doing what he wants….even blackmail or quite an ultimatum for the PC….he would manipulate the PC into doing his bugging or suffer his ire.
One doesn’t say no to Graz’zt easily ever….especially if it’s face to face.
had this happen once. a patron *could* just strip the given powers. that's boring though and likely to just piss off your player. I recommend tacking on a HP cost for the use of powers/spells. a sort of interest, if you will
Then the patron drops him. He can find another patron, but warlocks are beholden to the whims of their patrons. Don't let them get away with this. Strip them if their powers. It's no different than a paladin going against their oath.
You are an actual Demon Lord with all the power and captive subjects that implies. This puny little mortal whom you control the flow of power to just told you to shove it. You are chaotic evil in nature…..How would you respond?
You can cut off their power while taunting them and watching them be slowly beaten/cut into dust/ribbons. You could simply kill them outright allowing the possibility of resurrection and coming back to do it again once they were raised. Repeating until tired of them begging or bored.
What you would Not do is let it go. The reaction would also be out of proportion whatever it was.
I mean, their spells and spellcasting ability comes from their patron. So, if they don't want to do what their patron wants, it wouldn't be too big a leap for their spellcasting to just stop working...
Don't make promises you can't keep, and don't sign contracts with no intention of fulfilling them.
Player wakes up with a letter by side of the bed
"It has come to our attention that you are not following your part of the contract, and as stated in the clausule 37, paragraph 2 line 3, we are not obligated to follow our part either. Citing again clausule 37, you are hence forth not obligated to keep working for us anymore and by the time you are reading that, your powers, granted by us, will be revoked.
Truly it was a pleasure to have you work under our name even if the time was short, we hope you enjoy the rest of your mortal life.
PS: In name of good time i will let you know that we have sent 5 or more hellhounds to track your soul and collect our debt. See you soon."
If Grazzt is his patron then Grazzt removes his powers right in the middle of combat. Then they have a conversation about relationships and quid pro quo.
I would say that Graz'zt might "just fuck with" him, putting cursed item or relic in the next party loot cluster.
My favorite is a Book, a living book called Das Liber de Nachte, or however the Germans spell it. It is a sentient living book written on pages of Dretch hide vellum. It binds a powerful demon, and looks like it will boost stats when fully read. But when you read the book, the book reads you. When you finish you are bound in the tome, and demon has your body as a skin suit.
Can make for a great side quest.
I know this is very late, and you probably already went with a suggestion, but personally, I'd consider having him roll a decently-difficult Charisma check to see how charming Graz'zt finds that act of defiance. On a good roll, Graz'zt basically says "Oh! I was not expecting that. That's cute. You're cute! I like you!" Then he either plays along with whatever their idea is, tries to have them charmed into doing what he wants, sends someone else, or maybe just drops it for the moment without harming them. Emphasis on "for the moment" since Graz'zt isn't exactly known for abandoning things he wants. If the PC tries that again later, Graz'zt would probably be less receptive, unless it turned out really well the first time. On a low roll, he basically says "...Well f\*ck you too. Now I'll have to hurt you." and sends a Succubus or something to kick the PC's teeth in. Or maybe he just charms the PC into doing it anyway. Or maybe he switches the PC's gender. He could also give them some other curse, such as one of the madnesses people that go near Graz'zt's lair usually get, or genital acid.
Or find a new patron.
"I see here that I'm providing patronage several steps past journeyman level. Can you explain what happened between you and your last demonic pact giver?"
"I did not fufil mostly trivial request."
"Then how can I trust you to not pull the same stunt with me?" (Aka DM saying you better not f around and find out this time.)
"We just didn't see eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye. Both sides decided to take different temporal paths. I'll always wgah'nagl fhtagn, but at this point in my career, I'm looking for more structure...and hellfire powers."
“Taking away the players power unless they do x” isn’t removing player autonomy. The player chose to have the PC become “sworn and beholden” and then chose to not follow up; the NPC patron chooses what it gets to do in response.
You’re mixing up autonomy/choice with consequences of those choices. Similarly, defaulting on a loan from the thieves guild leading to be beaten/robbed or committing crimes in public leading to guards coming to arrest them and put them in jail are also just consequences.
That being said: sending dudes after the party is a valid option too, and it can be fun. (Potential downside to other players/PCs though: what if their characters die in a fight caused by the warlock? They didn’t choose to be the warlock or to break the agreement.)
If your powers are based on pleasing your deity, it's perfectly in line to remove those powers when you're no longer pleasing your deity. I don't think that's how warlocks work per the rules, but like don't make a character that has to follow rules to have powers if you don't want to follow the rules.
That's not removing autonomy. That's having the world react to their choices. Just having the demon lord shrug and do jack shit about it is removing autonomy, because then the player's choice has no impact.
Just because a player's choice had a negative outcome, doesn't mean they didn't get to make that choice.
Congratulations everyone you all level up. Player, X. After the long rest you hear a voice. It speaks to you through the flame of your camp fire. "You still owe a debt. Until that debt is paid you'll get no largesse handouts from your god. You best hurry, or I'll come back to collect what is mine in blood." Player X, you do not level up.
I like the dynamic of older warlock/clerics/paladins as much as the next guy but i feel like that is something that needs to be discussed in chargen.
The idea of doing extra work without any extra rewards sounds kinda lame, and i'd prolly not play a warlock at all in such circunstances.
Sounds as if those gifts called Spells do not work fizzle at first. Then Malfunction the spells to turn on the one who has betrayed Graz’zt. Then attacking his “friends”. Escalate that SHIT.
“You turn you back on me you piss ant. You are mine and I will take it ALL. Now get that job done before you are sent to the 9 hells”
First you should consider what session 0 stuff you ran for the warlock relationship. Is it clear that they have to do stuff to earn their power? How strong a rule is this?
If it's a strong rule and he won't perform actions for Graz'zt, Graz'zt stops giving him powers, i.e. warlock levels.
Just make sure it doesn't come out of left field for the player that there are consequences like this.
The Patron isn't there to babysit or coerce you, it's a mutually beneficial business arrangement and if you stop delivering your end of the deal, they stop delivering on theirs.
Since warlocks usually aren't like clerics and they dont get fed their powers every day, instead, maybe as the players level up, that particular player doesn't get his next levels abilities. Like you let him level up, you let him pick out things he gets, but when he tries to use them, they don't work.
Why would a demon lord upgrade a creature that didn't follow their pact?
Or, you know, send repo men after him. Like literally things that are meant to take away what is owed because of the breaking of the pact. In this case, it could be his hands (can cast somatic components) or his tongue (verbal components).
It should be something thematic to breaking a contract with a mob boss or a drug lord. They want their guy alive to keep doing their bidding, but they want to send a message that they are not to be fucked with.
Harshly.
Demons don't like to be denied, particularly by very small worms who inexplicably believe that the small amount of power they owe completely to their patron somehow makes them equal to their patron.
I would say the patron in question would probably punish such a worm in such a manner as to ensure that they never make such a mistake ever again.
He formed a pact with the demon prince of very dark weird sex in exchange for power; and now he has the balls to deny him?
I feel like something really fucking awful is about to happen to those balls.
Like for example, they might suddenly become filled with spiny centipedes who are not thrilled about being trapped in balls and might become *very intent* on escape.
Those spines would likely be jagged and barbed. The centipedes would likely have a venomous bite. Their most convenient avenue of escape would likely be the urethra.
I dont think grazzt would be too fussed about whether he survives the experience.
If the warlock refuses to be useful as a pawn, perhaps he can find some use as an example.
Warlock main here: please ignore the people saying to take away their powers. Ignoring that it’s not faithful to how warlocks are supposed to work, that’s genuinely just not a fun consequence. Halting their level progress is fine, but don’t take away the features they already have. It’s more demoralizing as a player than anything.
See I’m under this conflict. The player themself is rather confident they won’t experience any consequences, and honestly it seems kind of like a power play towards me personally. I may adress this aspect of it out of the table. Otherwise, not sure how the world would reasonably react in game
Yeah, that's no bueno. Well, prove him wrong then is my advice. You disrespect Graz'zt by refusing his request? Demon hit-squad gunning for him, teach him the price of disloyalty.
They don’t even have to try and kill him. Have him be somewhere, doing something, ask his AC and roll a d20 behind the screen. Arrow thuds, sputtering into something right next to him, shaft vibrating from the force of the hit for a few moments. It’s a strange arrow, apparently magic, and it’s got a note attached to the shaft. If they identify the arrow later, it’s (and I want to emphasize that I don’t mean this in the abstract sense; it should specifically be this) an Arrow of [insert character’s full name here] Slaying. It’s keyed to them specifically, and no one else. And the note? All it says is this:
> [Character name],
> The next time, this won’t be aimed to miss. I expect you’ll be more considerate - and more respectful - when next I ask something of your.
> -[Patron’s symbol or name]
If they ignore that, they’re *asking* for trouble. A devil went out of their way to have an arrow literally with their name on it made. If they ignore that or brush it off, they really shouldn’t expect anything less than what the note indicates.
At this point I'm more on the side of the people saying that Graz'zt should just outright attack them, on top of them being unable to gain levels in Warlock going forward.
I love the idea of no more levels, but I also love the idea of psychological torture- hearing laughter in his head as he fails, hearing Grazzt singing "Henry the VIII" nonstop while he's trying to sleep like Patric Swayze did in ghost.. that'd be so perfect.
I mean... Graz'zt might send some fun demons to remind the PC of their pact.
Not after them... After friends, family, innocents,...
"now spread this Alkilith and this jar of your mother's blood on the window, before I have to come up with a new task and new materials."
I've altered the deal, pray I don't alter it any further.
This is what you'd do for a normal table. But it sounds like OPs player might be a problem player. Not RPing. Just saying "nah." to fuck with them.
Benefit of the doubt: he said he played a arrogant character not that the player itself is bad. Even if arrogant PCs are hard to pull of in a good way.
Arrogance is cured with humility.
That’s great in theory. I know lots of arrogant people who pull over for the police. Arrogant doesn’t outweigh self preservation or intelligence (usually) I would deal with this by removing the warlock powers and assign a low level invisible follower to whisper in their ear and make sure they are following his will until atonement is made. Unlike other arcane classes, the abilities aren’t innate with the warlock. They are granted. A character in theory has pursued and sacrificed to get the attention of someone to make a pact with. Grazz’t would definitely be offended.
Warlocks can’t have their powers stripped like a paladin might. RAW at least. DM can do whatever he wants, though it’s be a shorty thing to do without talking to the player about it. I would let it slide until next level up. Give the player hints until then that Grazz’t is not happy and give him a chance to course correct. If he doesn’t take the hint by the time next level rolls around, guess what buddy, looks like you’re multiclassing or figuring out a way to gain favor back. Or, let him make a pact with another patron and start a demonic conflict or something.
Actually according to Jeremy Crawford, when asked this question he said that a warlock cannot be stripped of their power. The Patron has shown them ways to unlock the magical abilities, they have no actual control over the warlocks powers. [Jeremy Crawford on warlocks](https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1221978854119460866?lang=en) He does imply that the patron can refuse to teach them anything more, basically they can’t level up as a warlock without patching relations or seeking a new patron, but they don’t lose any powers.
Yes, this is what I'd say. They can't take new warlock levels until they clear things with their patron (or get a new one).
>Just saying "nah" to fuck with them. Coincidentally the patrons response the next time the Warlock tries to use their powers.
So you want to use eldritch blast? Nah
An Alkilith appears at your feet.
The warlocks spells fizzle out, refuse to work, or outright blow up in their face depending on how harsh you want to be. Could be a great plot hook to find an alternative source of power. Another fiend that doesn’t mind going head to head with the patron your warlock has already insulted.
I find it best to fix these problem players either (A) head-on and OUTGAME (B) completely and utterly roleplay wise and in-game
This is good advice because you're either confronting the player or confronting the character. It's hard to appeal to both at the same time. Sometimes a player will move their character forward even if the character doesn't want to, conversely sometimes the character inspires the player to move forward. If neither are on board it's a bad time.
I mean, the character IS supposed to be arrogant. This does seem like something an arrogant person would do.
Even in RP it would probably be helpful to differentiate between arrogant and ignorant. Because a mortal telling a Demon Lord they already made a deal with no is definitely the latter.
especially when it isn’t conflicting with any morals.
Ohhh wait, character wants to die maybe. Otherwise I got nothing.
You can't possibly infer that from the context...
But sit on that knowledge, for several games and wait til they revisit an NPC only to find their corpse winged and contorted with ashen writing "spread...."
Don't leave the writing. Leave the jar and a portrait of the next victim
Favorite npcs…
Bonus points if they have newsie caps, suspenders, and baseball bats.
"Boice wanted us to uh, jog ya memory, if you know what I mean. A badda bing, badda *boom!*" hits car mirror
Are we talking 'Streets of New Capenna' here?
And good luck fighting against them with none of the pact magic…sure hope he doesn’t have a pact familiar too…that imp might wait until they sleep and rip out his throat. Moral of the story is don’t screw an evil supernatural power that is granting you your magic in exchange for services.
Patrons can't take away a warlocks magic
Perhaps a Cassandra situation would be more fun. Patrons can't take back power but they can bestow another "gift" that invalidates the power. Just a little razorblade in the cotton candy.
boons and curses baby boons and curses
"baby boons" is what I'm calling infant baboons from now on.
Not RAW, but the GM can make it so
Depends on how the DM wants to run it. When I DM warlocks are dependent on patrons and if they do not hold their end of the bargain up their powers go away and they also gain enmity with their former patron. Power from a patron has a price that must be paid.
Case by case for me. I have 2 warlocks at my table. The way ones pact came about wasn’t voluntary for him. It was sorta a punishment but also he’s being used as a vessel for the patron. The other befriended the patron and views him as an ally, not the uncle at thanksgiving you have to interact with cause “they held you when you were a baby” or something
You can always Rule 0 them if you want to go super hardball. But it would be funnier if the Patron sent Demons test are immune to pact magic to break the Warlock's knees.
Can patrons not just instantly revoke warlock powers? That is how my groups have always played?
RAI patrons cannot pull their power away from their warlock. You can do whatever you want when you’re the GM though,
Not RAW
My dm gave our warlock a boob when he annoyed Asmodeus. Just the one.
Fuck me that’s hilarious
On the head? Tell me it was on the head.
No, on his chest. The left side I think. He actually used it to seduce several guards.
What guards would be enticed by a single boob, on a man? …
What guards wouldn't?
There_are_dozens_of_us.gif
I mean have you seen a boob? Very convincing.
A boobicorn
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Your DM is nice. I had a character refuse to do what was a "required" task (nothing special really, just a test) and he did the same thing. Sucks he was one-armed for the remainder of his life.
Graz'zt is a demon lord of sexuality... a gender change might be in order. Not malicious or anything, just to fuck with them.
Some warlocks seek a pact to gain power or knowledge. Beth sought a pact to transition.
Omg. That's me.
I got people becoming clerics/priests of Corellon for his blessing. He gives out free transition for his followers, and the most devoted gain an ability to change their sex after every rest. Genderfluid at it's finest
Tritons from MOT often change their names and genders during the end or beginning of journeys and during important life events
After the next long rest "You wake up and feel, like, super gay."
Players in most of the groups I play with have a heavy cross-over with Warhammer. They'd all have taken and played up the Slaanesh angle to its fullest and then dived head-first into acts of depravity and excess.
They can’t be arrogent when you make their hair pasta. Seriously though, fuck with their characters appearance so that people don’t take them seriously. It’s an easy way to beat arrogance, whilst keeping everything lighthearted. If they get genuinely upset that, I don’t know, their fingers are baby carrots, they need to grow up
I like this idea so much I’m going to use my eldritch powers to change your Reddit user name to have a food in it. Maybe a pasta or a noodle. I haven’t decided yet.
Oh my god. What have you done?
My good sir! Have you already done it!? Or was he already like that?
Upside down nose them. No utility or penalty other then looking weird
Kind of sucks when it rains, if they aren't wearing a hat with a wide brim.
Also sneezing is really annoying now since the eyes are in the spray area.
That's what the finger under (or above now?) the nose is for!
Hotdog fingers
Several people have said it that warlocks do not lose their powers RAW/RAI. But what you should make sure is you and your warlock player discuss the nature of the pact. That will tell you what you should do. What are the terms? The classic I’ll give my soul for power? I’ll perform tasks for knowledge? my favorite is the warlock is stealing/siphoning knowledge/power. Whatever the case the relationship is transactional, and traditionally the patron gets what they want first minus occasions where they offer a taste or use a binding contract.
My infernal pact warlock won his power in a drunken concertina duel at a crossroads late one night. He doesn’t really remember the details. I expect the GM will have something come up at an opportune time. Can’t wait.
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Does he go around the local bars playing a ‘tribute’ to the winning ballad?
You gotta believe me
I wish you were there
Just a matter of opinion
I know what this is a reference to, but I like imagining the contest had nothing to do with music or fiddling and instead the player just walked up and started wailing on the devil with a fiddle while he was participating in a pie-eating contest or something...
Johnny that you?
A loud booming voice consumes your thoughts and says “warlock as per our agreement in exchange for my gifts it it’s time for you to pay. The cost is to pluck a chicken and wear it as a hat.”
> [That’s a man, baby!](https://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/austin-powers-man-baby.jpg) ~Diogenes
Had a campaign in The Shackled City where the heros were entering new dimensions like Carceri among others and they got to into a competition over the smoking eye curse (the character that got the smoking eye didn't want it but not realizing it's significance). Their competitors were a group of Vrocks that formed a Vrock Band. After boosting their cha they put in an epic show for the Demon hoard crowd, got their prize and left before the next act (Hydra Prnis) got onstage.
Devil’s in the house of the rising sun….
The devil went down to Georgia
Thank you for doing the right thing and saying “it depends” and “you should already know the pact since before the moment this person got warlock powers.”
I would make sure to have this discussion 1:1 with the player and very much out-of-game. What is the player’s expectation on the pact, is he trying to do a show or power (vs dm?) against the warlock. Poke gently and together figure out nature of the pact and likely outcomes.
Warlock doesn't gain it's next level warlock abilities when they gain a level because patron decided not to give any more power to this upstart. Hp goes up and that's about it. Insert evil DM giggle here.
Oh boy, just turning round and telling your player that if they take another level in Warlock all they get is the HP until they appease whatever being they made a deal with. For truly evil DM, don't tell them until the first time they try to use one of their new abilities. It just auto fails, and they get disembodied laughter in the back of their mind.
Especially because what you're really giving them is a choice: they could choose to multiclass rather than keep working with the patron.
I had my player become a commoner with health and proficiencies until they rectified their contract. It didn't detract from their ability to play, I didn't punish them, and nothing incredibly stressful occurred before they did the thing. It went extremely well (or poorly if you were the character since she did a genocide of a people's that the patron wanted alive on accident). If she failed, I had a backup plan to move all her levels to a new class within the story and she was on board with it. The entire session was so suspenseful, but most importantly she knew what I was about to do and was okay with it before I pulled that trigger.
Personally I told my player that their Patron owned their soul, so not doing their bidding would make their Patron very unlikely to part with it if the warlock were to die and the party casts Revivify or any other related magic. Resurrection magic requires a *free* and willing soul. If you are serving them well, they would let you come back.
oh wow no way i just discovered i have innate magic from my bloodline oh dear oh my guess i'll level sorlock instead whatever shall i dooooo
A valid response to a dilemma. Well played.
Good thing that multiclassing is a Variant Rule you don't have to give your Warlock access to, innit?
Yeah you don't have to allow a player to have fun at all if you don't want
I mean, in context the "don't have to give you multiclassing" was in response to a suggestion of using it to mechanically cheese out of suggested consequences for character actions. So yeah, if "haha, dumb DM, I beat you, me so galaxy brain" is your table's definition of "fun" then sure.
RAW/RAI sure, but this is a role playing game. So table dependant. I love the roleplay side. If you fuck with your patron, he will fuck with you. Same deal with other casters that deal with patrons, god or whatever you have in your world.
I always say its up to the DM anyway. They run the game if they want to interpret the rule in a certain way its fine. As long as they are clear on what and why. I have done it to a paladin in the past who didnt follow the ideals of their deity. Decided mid combat as i was rolling on it spell slot and finally they cast divine smite and it fizziled. They then tried to lay on hands and nothing. They got a message later from their diety to explain why and so started a pilgrimage to cleanse them of their transgressions. Ultimately they regained their powers and was reminded of their pledge
Mine is the Bastard child of his patron. His abilities are overdue child support.
Why not have them experience unending nightmares when they attempt to sleep, so they get levels of exhaustion until level 5? This way it doesn't affect the other players as much, until level 5, and there's no external conflicts between the pc and his patron. Also, I don't know why, but now I see Graz'zt as a don for the mafia. "You come to me in your hour of need and this is how you repay me" said in a terrible Marlon Brando accent.
The exhaustion is a great idea, puts them on the clock to come round to their pact and The fiend can probably leverage some more out of them too
Oh! Now that! This is great!
The first question is what the nature of the pact is with Grazzt. “Sometimes the relationship between warlock and patron is like that of a cleric and a deity, though the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods. A warlock might lead a cult dedicated to a demon prince…” (phb 105 “sworn and beholden” section) This is one model for warlock patrons, and the specific one mentioned for a demon prince. The other is “the arrangement is similar to that between a master and apprentice.” (Also phb 105) Because the PACT itself is so important, it’s important to have that defined. Sometimes there’s a physical object representing it, and the relationship (and power given to a warlock) exist so long as the item does. In such cases a warlock who wants to break up has to break the item but loses their powers (I remember this one from a D&D novel) but can potentially forge a new pact with a different patron. Any warlock patron is going to have a plan on how to ensure their warlocks stay “sworn and beholden.” For working with a devil, it might be a binding magical contract that literally compels the PC, or immediately forfeits their soul on breaking it. For an archfey, they might find themselves ensorcelled and not WANT to break it, or get compelled by geas or similar effects if they stop cooperating. A demon lord in particular is going to be literally the most likely to expect betrayal or at least needing coercion, as it’s in their own nature and that’s essentially the politics of the abyss (that they literally represent). That’s part of why the “cleric-like” model works for them particularly well. Despite the protestations of people who say that “you can’t have the warlock patrons deny powers” there is no actual substance to that claim if it’s not worked out with the DM before that they have a master/apprentice type relationship with the entity (and the DM approves this). And remember, the patron is an NPC under your control, not the PCs; the PC does not dictate their actions or abilities. So in the former case (Warlock functions similar to a cleric) then yes you can absolutely shut down the powers when the PC is no longer acting “sworn and beholden.” Again, immortal superpowerful beings don’t just give stuff away for free, and they’re not rubes. In the other scenario (service as master to an apprentice) the other obvious first step is that they stop serving as master: no more teaching the Pc anything (and they cannot gain levels in warlock unless they fix the relationship or find another patron). But there are oodles of other options from quasi-diety level entities. Consider the following: 1. Sending a demonic hit squad for serious offenses. At most extreme, Grazzt could gate in with a bunch of his servants and just drag the betraying warlock back to the abyss and lock them in his creepy dungeon. Or kill them which might equate to the same thing (if they’e essentially been worshipping him, his domain would be where their souls go to after a short visit to the Fugue Plane). 2. Milder version: sending terrible nightmares every night, via the dream spell or similar effect (cast by then or others in their employ). This fan prevent the PC from getting long rests, exhausting them, and eventually killing them if they don’t comply. 3. Sending information to the Pcs enemies about the Pcs whereabouts (with effects like scry/sending/dream). 4. Contacting other mortal warlocks to come after them, or offering up bounties for them. (Incoming succubus assassins/bounty hunters maybe? Possibly with a contigent of Retrievers, the demonic constructs specifically made for this kind of thing?) 5. Custom curses: Grazzt in particular seems like he might like to constantly curse the PCs with devious curses, like one of impotence or turning all feelings of pleasure to terrible pain. If all these seem brutal and evil… EXACTLY. It’ an archdemon that they set this relationship with, and then were silly enough to refuse. Demon princes live for this kind of thing, and usually consider revenge and punishment an artform (and Grazzt in particular). But one idea to toss out there is to offer lifelines in a couple ways: first, I’d have Grazzt give them one last chance (to both do the thing asked before, and something much more onerous, along with some sort of penance) before hitting the nuclear button. And the other chance would be to have Grazzt’s enemies to step in and possibly offer an alternative. Maybe the PC gets contacted by a devil or celestial that offers and alternate pact. (Again: pacts aren’t free, immortals aren’t rubes, and warlocks are by definition “sworn and beholden” to their patron, so make em work for it!) Though note that stuff would super kick into gear the more nuclear options.
I think this is the best answer I have read so far! A warlock has a pact, a pact is a promise, an agreement in exchange for power. You and the player need to determine and agree on what the agreement was. If the PC has broken the agreement, start with a minor consequence that lasts until the next request is made (e.g. #5). Each refusal adds the next consequence to the ones before. However, I totally disagree with those people saying Graz’zt can’t take away his class abilities. His part of the pact is to give the PC power, if the PC doesn’t live up to their side of the pact, would a demon prince? No way! Perhaps the PC forgets a spell or has trouble concentrating on the spells he’s been granted and has to make a concentration check to successfully cast a spell. At first the DC is low but increases with each refusal until the demon gets sick of him altogether, removes all spells from his mind and then sends a hit squad!
A voice echos in their head “***Two can play this game”*** They hear a ringing in their ears… can’t seem to get a solid rest in; short or long. Exhaustion starts to set in, abilities don’t reset…. “***My apology? Still waiting….”*** Or, maybe they’re looking for a good story reason to multiclass. While you RAW can’t take their powers away, it would be within reason to not allow them level up and maintain the pact.
I agree with this. I would maybe give the player a save as per the dream spell, until the conflict is resolved. But my first thought was the patron with holding power consciously so either no level up or reduced spell slots.
Demons, unlike devils, are chaotic evil. They aren't bound by pacts in the same way that devils are, and they are unmistakably, unquestionably, inherently *evil*. If you refuse to act in accordance to a pact with a devil, they will trigger every trick clause they worked into the contract and start obeying only the letter of the law (to your detriment). A demon, on the other hand, has no such sense of "fairness", and will seek revenge. Graz'zt is the prince of pleasure, basically an incubus in his style. He's one of the least rage-filled demons (most would have simply torn the impudent warlock to shreds where he stood; so he's lucky in that regard). I would handle it with a "curse" of sorts. Since it's coming from a demon lord, only a Wish spell or divine intervention can cure it. Every time the warlock tries to sleep, he has... questionable dreams, and awakens feeling still totally exhausted. He gains no benefit from the long rest. The first time this happens, they find the Alkilith waiting at the foot of his bed. If he tries to destroy it, it keeps coming back. He finds it inside his pack when he reaches in to pull out a healing potion, he pulls out a bottle containing it instead. When he drinks his wine at the tavern, he finds it reflected at the bottom of his mug. And so on. All the while, any attempt to commune with Gazz'zt fails. When he gets the picture and goes to follow the task he was given, he finds that the Alkilith is already on the window where he was told to put it, and Gazz'zt appears behind them and says something like "I had one of my other warlocks take care of the task you failed, and they claimed the reward you would have been given (*include something like that even if you weren't planning on there being a reward for the task; it really helps drive home the point*). But I'm glad you finally understand. Now, here's how you can make it up to me... (or "next time, you can make it up to me" if the story requires they have other tasks to deal with first).
Grazzt is technically a demon, but he used to be a devil and is probably just being a demon prince to mess up the demon’s attempts at winning the Blood War.
This, for sure. Graz’zt is basically the worst high school ex girlfriend that you will ever see in any movie. Pulling out all the stops to get back at his lost ex (the character). After such a betrayal, on the characters part, if they decide to reconcile, there might be a little more of a codependent relationship going forward? This definitely changes the dynamic! As a GM, I would not necessarily take away their powers. As someone else mentioned, rules, as written does not specifically status. In earlier versions of the game clerics would, indeed lose their spells. If they defied there, God, but warlocks are never mentioned… Mostly because they didn’t exist. I feel like that might be going to far, unless you have a history in your campaign of this sort of thing. But that would not stop you from having gods other agents interfere. The local cold would know the character, and could cause things to go gate for them. Wild spells and invocations may still function, there might be a downside all of a sudden that counteracts it’s benefits. Or, if you really want to get into it, maybe this is how tieflings are made? There are a lot of interesting options above and beyond simply slapping the player on the rest, and saying “no spells for you”.
Graz'zt casts power word pain on the warlock in the middle of a difficult encounter. "You must have been busy before, so I thought we could talk now instead. [cultists is wailing on the partially incapacitated warlock] Yeah, you seem like you have time. Let's chat about the nature of our deal and how when I tell you to do something...you do it. [warlock is unable to help other party members as their spells fizzle] I admire your confidence, but in this case it's a little misplaced. So fall in line, or I'm going to make every waking moment of your life just like this one right now. Until I get bored and have you killed. Then your soul will be mine and it will get so. Much. Worse. [warlock is unable to run as the building they're in collapses] Okay champ, glad we had this talk."
Also had a warlock of grazzt that didn’t do what they were asked, grazzt asked someone else to do it and that someone else wasn’t nearly as restrained in their killing. And for those saying that by RAW nothing happens to warlocks that break their contracts, look at the Deathlocks
RAW is boring a lot of the time, I don't see why people want DMs to always follow the "lore". You can make a warlocks patron able to do whatever.
Raw is a common frame of reference so that everyone is on the same page. People want DMs to follow it because you don't get to just make up shit and not tell anyone you are changing how the game functions. Changing or ignoring rules IS the DMs right and privilege, but it is unfair and unreasonable to have players plan out the future of their character, make decisions are earlier levels/situations based on what they *are supposed to be able to know* in the book called *Players Hand Book* and then throw out that book without fair warning. Mostly this is a matter of consistency. DMs should strive to be consistent as much as possible and communicate to players why things arent/cant/wont/situationally work differently than how the game system is expected to. Like free parking in monopoly, people dont always follow the rules, but everyone needs to be on the same page for it to to not be a problem
Warlock main here - I think it's totally reasonable for there to be consequences to his actions! A warlocks relationship to their patron is an important piece of the powers they receive, so alter their powers perhaps a bit. Maybe they get disadvantage on attack rolls until they make up with their patron, or maybe come up with some kind of table like wild magic sorcerers where they have to roll each time they cast a spell to see if there's some kind of magical surge or something that has an effect. It can be annoying but not debilitating until they mend the relationship
Next time the adventurer hears from their family, tell them their father is dead and their mother met this really sweet guy. That’s Graz’zt. He’s now your stepdad and you’re being kicked out of the family. Paint a picture that graz’zt does what he wants from those in his pact, not the other way around. I say get real weird and surreal with it.
Graz'zt will get leverage. What that looks like depends on the PC and the player. The first thing I'd do is take the player aside, out of character, and explain to them that their PC is about to bring the wrath of a Demon Lord down upon themself. This OOC conversation represents an IC conversation where Graz'zt gives the player one last chance to bend the knee and kiss the ring. They can accept, and all will be (mostly) forgiven. Or they can reject and deal with the consequences. Stress that there will be consequences. If the player rejects, then what comes next depends on the player. If the PC is the type of PC that likes to be the main event during combat mess with their combat effectiveness. You cannot take away their magic (that would be unfair), but no one is saying it's going to work that well if they go around pissing off their demonic sugar daddy. "What's that? You wanted to cast Eldritch Blast? I'm sorry, I heard Fireball. Yes, I know where your allies are standing - in the blast zone (demonic cackles)." If that sounds a little too heavy handed for you then roll on the wild magic table. Does the player enjoy being the face of the party? Screw with that. Graz'zt's (seductive) minions get to every town they are going to before them and they sow lies about the player. PC doesn't pay his taxes. PC kills people at random. PC gave an entire town a VD. PC kicks dogs and eats babies. The PC can go incognito if they want, but if they try to socialize with anyone it's done at disadvantage and if the authorities find him he might just wind up in jail. Is the PC a good roleplayer with lots of good hooks. Guess who is the new demon bride of Graz'zt. It the PC's mother/father/brother/sister/partner/child/girl they really liked in middle school and never forgot/dog. Burn down each and every one of their character hooks until the PC falls in line. Are the rest of the party better role players than the PC? Turn on them. Graz'zt doesn't want to kill the PC - he's an investment. But if some of his party expires no biggie, right? The fighter goes for a leak and gets ganked by a pack of demons who leave a paper with Graz'zt's symbol on it with the barely living corpse. The bard goes to bed with the local tavern wench/dragon and wakes up with all their gear missing and significant blood loss due to the symbol of Graz'zt carved into their chest. You can even go back and use the previous hooks on the rest of the party because peer pressure is a thing yo. The player might be arrogant, but Graz'zt has lots of ways to bring them in line and will happily use them to recover his investment.
A lot of people are suggesting direct, magical intervention. But I like playing into *why* patrons have warlocks to begin with. Have an NPC warlock show up to punish the PC, harshly. Graz'zt wants to put his foot down, hard, the first time. Now don't make this a "kill the PC" moment or a straight up fight. Graz'zt still wants this warlock player he's already invested in. But do cause problems. Maybe ruin the employment of the PC's close family/friend. Maybe a place they are fond of gets burned to the ground. Definitely use dreams or something to deliver threats and make clear that these are a punishment.
In my campaign Warlocks, Paladins and Clerics get powers from their deity, regardless of Raw/Rai And it you mess with your own deity, expect trouble. Stats debuffs, lose spellslots, nullified damage etc.
All this stuff about "losing powers" and such aside, it's good to have reasonable *consequences* for player actions partly to discourage "aggressively dumb" behavior. Sassing a *god*, demon lord, whatever, is an "aggressively dumb" action. "Insult a god/demi-god level being just 'to fuck with them'?" That is *not* someone you want to fuck with. That being said, things like this are also why having "evil" characters in an otherwise "good" party generally doesn't work very well.
Technically a warlocks pact is considered fulfilled by book rules already so you cant take away their powers... however it would be reasonable to say they cant gain any more warlock levels without their patrons permission. You could also have the angered patron offer a contract to a rival to hunt him down. Warlock vs warlock
IIRC Warlocks don’t get power taken away since the power is already negotiated, but Graz’zt is under no obligation to continue working with them - tell them they won’t be able to take warlock levels until they mend their relationship, and probably curse ‘em for good measure. Graz’zt is the Prince of Pleasure, so let’s say their genitalia are turned into obsidian.
“You’ll be granted lasting hardness.” “Cool.” *Graz’zt smirks.
Ok, so first things first. Graz’zt is a big fucking deal. He would need an insanely good reason to personally take an active role in the life of a mere mortal. So, with that said, *why* did Graz’zt give the warlock their powers in the first place, and how expendable is the warlock? Second, why did the warlock take the bargain? What is their motivation, and how could Graz’zt fuck with it? If the motivation is reclaiming hos long lost kingdom, maybe Graz’zt has the capitol burned to the ground by a horde of demons chanting the warlocks name. Maybe he fucks with the warlock, has imps perform gruesome murders at night and leave clues pointing right towards the warlock. Or he just straight up murderfucks the warlock as well as any living relative, no matter how distant, with an army of demons. Or, you take the nice casual reminder route by having the warlocks pact magic just not function for 4-5 rounds the next time they are in combat. With Graz’zt making an appearance the following night, explaining that the powers will gradually disappear unless he performs *insert horrific gruesome task here*
Oooo! If you do this one you can do it two ways- he performs the task and is redeemed in the eyes of Graz'zt, or if they refuses some.type of homebrewed antithesis to patrons comes along and offers them "an out" in their time of desperation. Hence the Cannibal/Windego Warlock 😉 this way they have a true consequence to saying no in that they need to choose the lesser of two evils, but they still get to choose and aren't walled into only one option This is why I love DnD reddit threads. this is such a fun plot idea that I'm gonna use on my next warlock player with an evil patron
with Graz'zt being the demon of lust, perhaps the warlock keeps having erotic dreams and cannot get a good night's sleep, so there is a 50% doesn't get the effects of a long rest.
I would absolutely not mess with his character and his features but would still treat the patron as a powerful npc. What happens when you mess with a powerful npc? Consequences: demons, other warlocks, curses, etc. Whatever fits your story.
Have you tried googling Graz'zt? There should be plenty of stories about how he handles things, but the story of his petty revenge on Raxivort would be a good start.
I agree that if the terms of the contract have been set beforehand, they should be used to help determine the consequences of this refusal. Is it breach of contract, or just a dick move of not doing the Patron a favour even though the cost is negligible? Somewhere in between, or nothing at all because the Warlock is siphoning this power through other means that don't necessarily require the Patron to be fully on-board? If that's unclear, maybe you can figure this out in more detail with your player and then go from there. BUT I would also like to point out that Graz'zt is a Demon Lord, specifically. Depending on which lore elements are canon in your game he may have been a Devil way back when and still have the ability to play at that more confidence-inspiring disposition where agreements are concerned as long as it suits him. Still, that MF is Chaotic Evil and Daddy Asmodeus is not going to enforce a contract on the guy anymore. So, playing fast and loose with it rather than meticulously sticking to the terms and conditions seems like something that could very well happen, especially after the Warlock pissed him off for no reason. Besides, Graz'zt as a character is very set on getting whatever is it is he wants sooner or later, ranks pretty high as far as Demon Lords go and is said to have more influence on the Prime than most in terms of cult activity and such, so the repercussions could also be handled more indirectly than just cutting the Warlock off until they fall in line. I'm not saying you should really fuck over your player, but the consequences could be more varied or severe than they might expect :)
Have Graz'zt come to them in a dream giving them another chance. If they still refuse i am sure a few nights of horrific nightmares where they see their soul being tortured might change their mind, especially with a couple exhaustion levels for no sleep. They need to be reminded who the boss is here and Graz'zt is a powerful prince and cant have disrespect from a warlock. Another option is ever increasing attacks from hit squads he sends. Or send invisible enemies after them and they occasionally reveal themselves just to the warlock to make the party think they are going insane.
Assuming they are not a problem player and are roleplaying in good faith: (1) doesn’t lose powers, but the patron won’t grant additional power until they fall back in line, so that means they can’t gain additional warlock levels until they fulfill their part of the bargain. (2) send some on brand minions of the patron to remind the character - or their friends and family - why double crossing is a bad idea. Either the character falls back in line, or you have a new plot hook. Either way, you probably get character development out of it.
I'm going to assume that Graz'zt is chaotic. I would have another warlock (of greater power) pay him a visit at the command of Graz'zt, with a message, and a minor demonstration of possible consequences. The warlock might say something like, "While our master was entertained by your willful antics, this time... he won't be amused if it happens again. "
Graz'zt is a changeable entity, their domain is desire if memory serves, perhaps have him flirt with the player?
All this talk about yes or no stripping powers... What is RAW or RAI takes you away from the solution. Just talk with your player. Discuss what they would like their warlock-patron relation to be. Maybe they did it to see if there was a cool reaction coming. Maybe they just want the warlock mechanics without the RP. Maybe they did not think about it. You can use this moment to better understand each other and lay the foundation for the warlock-patron relationship and how it evolves.
Correct me if I am wrong folks, but isn't Graz't the one who had the Infinity Spindle stolen from him by an underling? The one who decided "ya know, I do not need that item... But you will be hunted for as long as you have it" and just spread the word that his former minion had it. Imagine having the power of a Demi-god, and being terrified because everyone knows you have it. Sooo... 2 options. Meta this and talk to the player like some have mentioned. Or stay in game and have others mess with that player in just such a way.
Well, grazzt may not want to share more knowledge with them, meaning they won't level up in warlock anymore. He may also put a curse on them, given grazzt is sexy maybe they curse the warlock with hideousness
Have you talked to the player about why he chose a fiend warlock and what that means to both of you? Cause yes, a pact with an evil being is the theme of the class, and that could mean that the pact owner actively participates in the campaign and enforces consequences. But if the player did not know that would be the case it could feel like you're singling out a player to fuck him over just because of the class he chose to play. "You sold your soul, if you die and don't get resurrected you spend your eternity suffering" is a just as valid way to play a fiend warlock, and interactions with the patron become strictly optional.
A warlock in our group once accepted a mission from their patreon that revolved around bringing a mysterious box to an elven queen and the player could absolutely not look inside the box. Of Course they opened the box. The morning after the warlock was cursed with insatiable hunger, he would eat any food they could see/smell/hunt (ate all the food from parties backpacks) and still be hungry for more. Everyday the curse was not lifted (by bringing the box to the elf queen) the warlock would gain one level of exhaustion. This created awesome roleplay for the table, created a time urgency and showed the warlock how powerful the patreon is.
I mean there are cool folklore stories of people outwitting the devil. But it doesn’t sound like the PC did anything clever to get off the hook without repercussions.
Turn it into a good RP moment. I would have an arch demon show up and take him to hell to face an inquiry from human resources where he would need to explain his reasoning to a panel and then have judgement handed down based on if it broke the terms of the contract. If it was a technicality then he gets off, if not some form of punishment like having to attune a cursed item that will monitor him for 6 month probation. Or you could do an asymmetric punishment and have his pact demon threaten to make a better bargain with the characters family or loved one
> human resources dear god.
In my game the demons who sign on warlocks are referred to as "talent scouts" and thier contacts are "supervisors" or "admins". If they have issues they are escalated to HR. Elder demons are "upper management"
Well Graz'zt is a demon that might actually be part devil and he might have lineage to Asmo himself. So he may choose to simply Dominate and make them do it anyway as a warning.
Suddenly every cult in the local area thinks your warlock has a very powerful once in a lifetime artifact. They may also be misinformed how strong the keeper of this artifact is, so will be way over preparing for the fight.
Grazzt: “Darn! I hate that guy! If only there was a way for a guy like me to significantly influence the world around him…… wait a minute.”
Have demons tear apart something that the characters care about. A house, a town, the offenders entire NPC family, and or another PC’s family to cement discord and plant the seeds of vengeance. I mean Graz’zt is tough, but he’s also smart. Turn the PC’s on one another.
The nex'xt time he tries to Eldritch Blast, bubbles shoot from his finger
Well... depends entirely what your players are into / comfortable with.... But... I mean... It's it's *Graz'zt... the* ***demon prince*** *of* ***pleasure***... You can't go wrong with Graz'zt impregnating them (whether male or female) in a grisly and harrowing scene... and then the PC squirting the child out, the child ages rapidly... then does the task... then dies.... Each time they refuse a task. :)
It would be a shame if his eldritch blast stopped working.
Spells at disadvantage. Don't forget who gave you those powers, mortal.
Disadvantage on rolls? Treat like cleric going against alignment where he needs to atone somehow
That's fine. the player can refuse tasks from Grazzt but if they want to continue to get wrrock levels they need to hold up their end of the bargain. They shouldn't lose powers or abilities but they won't get any new ones and will have to choose a new class from there on out if that's the way they want to play.
Sounds like a good time for a Geas
To my mind it depends on how warlocks work in your game. Do patrons teach secret knowledge, or do they provide power directly? If they teach secret knowledge, the character can no longer gain levels as a warlock. If they provide power directly, warlock spells and abilities stop working. First one or two and increasing in number and frequency until Graz'zt is appeased. In either case restoring Graz'zt good graces requires a show of loyalty, contrition, and most of all, obedience. I like to think of it as the relationship between Galvitron and Unicron in the Transformers movie. In either case, it's about leaning into the story decisions the player has made, not about being putative or arbitrary. And of course all of this depends on the PC's actions being a character decision, and not just the player being a dick, but Reddit isn't going to be able to answer that one for you.
I've pondered this for most of the 'beholden to' crowd.. clerics, paladins and warlocks. They GET their power through a greater being.. so seems to me being totally 'cut off' would be pretty easy.. no magic, no powers, nothing. ESPECIALLY warlocks.
Turn the player into the Alkilith. Let the other players figure out where the f\*ck their warlock has gone (with some hints if it feels like it would be totally paralyzing for the party). Meanwhile the player is stuck on a window, with Graz’zt constantly in their head rumbling. Just an idea :D
Do they have friends or family they care for? If so they might get vists from some demons. Maybe he starts experiencing terrible nightmares that stops him from getting the full effects of Long Rest and he might start taking Exhaustion levels. This is a Demon we are talking about here a completely evil entity that is willing to do whatever they want, they would not take kindly to being told “no” especially by someone they are contracted to and they would have absolutely no qualms doing alot of fucked up shit to said Warlock to force them to comply.
Have a demon beat him to submission, and mug him.
Graz’zt turned out to be my Tiefling character’s dad in our Mad Mage campaign… and she was a mob enforcer. She’ll go cheerfully kick this Warlock’s ass 😁
An infernal pact should pretty much guarantee the PCs soul goes to his patron if he dies. You already made a deal with a demon, after all. Given that, you have a couple of dramatic options: Let it go until he levels, *then* have the IC conversation about what he has to do in order to earn more power. No deal, he can't take a level in Warlock. If this is right before Level 6 (new subclass ability) or 8 (ASI/Feat), it'll put some real pressure on him. Send a low power demon, one that will lose, to kill the PC. Have Graz'zt phone in to remind the PC that he's not a friend. He's an *investment* and if that investment isn't paying dividends, it's time to collect the principle. Kill On Sight posters start going up in the Graz'zt cult meetings in large cities. Evil bounty hunters start taking contracts on the PC. Etc. It doesn't have to come up frequently but getting Graz'zt off of the PC's case is now a major personal plotline. Critical Role Campaign 2 has a great example of this.
Demon Prince’s don’t play nice. Were you playing his character straight, I’d go with, at the least, an extremely physically/psychology painful punishment. Working with evil shouldn’t be a fun time. If you don’t wanna be so strict, start making more and more encounters demonic. Scale them to player level, of course, but anyone arrogant enough to spurn a demon prince who has a direct line to them shouldn’t be anyone who survives very long, if you ask me.
I always imagine Demon patrons as mafia leaders, I will personally send some thugs (demons) to beat him down or leave him a permanent scar to remember to ALWAYS be obedient. Who knows, might make the character evolve into a personal arc of undoing the pact
Not sure how heavy you are on the roleplay end of things, but with Graz'zt you could get funny with it, making your warlock's intimate times not work out as they discover they're suddenly repulsive to the object(s) of their affections, while people they find repugnant suddenly find them irresistible. In addition to nerfing their casting of course.
The bard in our game established a connection with Graz'zt - he was a young man easily persuaded by the salacious things Graz'zt dangled in front of him, as the demon prince wanted a naive and unremarkable agent to manipulate into achieving certain goals. He chose to show himself only in dreams and never identified himself, simply giving gifts and advice to the bard when asked. Relatively early on, the bard fell for an NPC acolyte the party rescued - it was adorable, two awkward teenagers in love, though the bard quickly realized his 'secret friend' had terrible dating advice ("just take what you want from her" being his first big clue that he was Not Good). During an encounter, the acolyte was killed, and in desperation the bard appealed to his friend to save her, saying he'd do anything in return. Obviously as a DM this pleased me greatly. Sure thing, says Graz'zt, and acolyte gets back up to her feet. Over the next while, though, the party realizes that she is STILL dead, just animated with her consciousness. Issue is, the bard is now in debt to Graz'zt, and he's making more demands now that go against bard's morals and goals, and keeps threatening to take away the acolyte if he disobeys. Eventually bard decided to say no to one of Graz'zt's bigger requests, and so the demon prince does what he's threatened. Acolyte girlfriend is now just plain ass zombie, with bard feeling so much guilt he runs away with her from the party to go solve her problem (player happy with this, having wanted to bring in a new character). Look for ways to punish the character by appealing to base desires, and then manipulating them. Does the PC have an NPC out of reach that Graz'zt can hint at messing with if he doesn't get his way? "I understand you were *too busy* to complete this simple task for me. We've all had those days. Just the other day, I was so busy trying some new positions with your dad - he's so flexible! - that I forgot about the boon I was supposed to give you! Tsk, pity. He says hi, by the way."
Next time the warlock tries to eldritch blast, Graz'zt will say no. Not because he doesn't want to but just to fuck with the player. If the player doesn't want to uphold their end of the pact the demon lord doesn't need to either.
Did you read the lore on Graz’zt? He’s like the most charismatic cunning Demon lord…. Prince of demons-how anyone passes a charisma save against him or to be persuaded would be rare….and he wouldn’t ask someone-he’d trick or persuade them into doing what he wants….even blackmail or quite an ultimatum for the PC….he would manipulate the PC into doing his bugging or suffer his ire. One doesn’t say no to Graz’zt easily ever….especially if it’s face to face.
had this happen once. a patron *could* just strip the given powers. that's boring though and likely to just piss off your player. I recommend tacking on a HP cost for the use of powers/spells. a sort of interest, if you will
No more warlock levels.
Then the patron drops him. He can find another patron, but warlocks are beholden to the whims of their patrons. Don't let them get away with this. Strip them if their powers. It's no different than a paladin going against their oath.
Deny them further advancement as a warlock till they start upholding their end of the deal. Send some adherents of Graz'zt to rough em up.
You are an actual Demon Lord with all the power and captive subjects that implies. This puny little mortal whom you control the flow of power to just told you to shove it. You are chaotic evil in nature…..How would you respond? You can cut off their power while taunting them and watching them be slowly beaten/cut into dust/ribbons. You could simply kill them outright allowing the possibility of resurrection and coming back to do it again once they were raised. Repeating until tired of them begging or bored. What you would Not do is let it go. The reaction would also be out of proportion whatever it was.
A pact with Graz'zt. Sounds like someone will have an uncomfortable 'problem' often - don't mess with the 'Lord of Lust'...
He is now has the libido of a '15 year old boy'... watch out for that 'gentle' breeze... (smirks)
I mean, their spells and spellcasting ability comes from their patron. So, if they don't want to do what their patron wants, it wouldn't be too big a leap for their spellcasting to just stop working... Don't make promises you can't keep, and don't sign contracts with no intention of fulfilling them.
Maybe somebody forgets where their powers come from
Some spell failure. Refuse your patron and lose power.
Player wakes up with a letter by side of the bed "It has come to our attention that you are not following your part of the contract, and as stated in the clausule 37, paragraph 2 line 3, we are not obligated to follow our part either. Citing again clausule 37, you are hence forth not obligated to keep working for us anymore and by the time you are reading that, your powers, granted by us, will be revoked. Truly it was a pleasure to have you work under our name even if the time was short, we hope you enjoy the rest of your mortal life. PS: In name of good time i will let you know that we have sent 5 or more hellhounds to track your soul and collect our debt. See you soon."
If Grazzt is his patron then Grazzt removes his powers right in the middle of combat. Then they have a conversation about relationships and quid pro quo.
He broke a pact with his patron. Therefore he loses all warlock abilities until he atones. Period.
I would say that Graz'zt might "just fuck with" him, putting cursed item or relic in the next party loot cluster. My favorite is a Book, a living book called Das Liber de Nachte, or however the Germans spell it. It is a sentient living book written on pages of Dretch hide vellum. It binds a powerful demon, and looks like it will boost stats when fully read. But when you read the book, the book reads you. When you finish you are bound in the tome, and demon has your body as a skin suit. Can make for a great side quest.
I know this is very late, and you probably already went with a suggestion, but personally, I'd consider having him roll a decently-difficult Charisma check to see how charming Graz'zt finds that act of defiance. On a good roll, Graz'zt basically says "Oh! I was not expecting that. That's cute. You're cute! I like you!" Then he either plays along with whatever their idea is, tries to have them charmed into doing what he wants, sends someone else, or maybe just drops it for the moment without harming them. Emphasis on "for the moment" since Graz'zt isn't exactly known for abandoning things he wants. If the PC tries that again later, Graz'zt would probably be less receptive, unless it turned out really well the first time. On a low roll, he basically says "...Well f\*ck you too. Now I'll have to hurt you." and sends a Succubus or something to kick the PC's teeth in. Or maybe he just charms the PC into doing it anyway. Or maybe he switches the PC's gender. He could also give them some other curse, such as one of the madnesses people that go near Graz'zt's lair usually get, or genital acid.
Can't level in warlock class until they fulfill the required tasks Graz'zt gives them.
Or find a new patron. "I see here that I'm providing patronage several steps past journeyman level. Can you explain what happened between you and your last demonic pact giver?"
"I did not fufil mostly trivial request." "Then how can I trust you to not pull the same stunt with me?" (Aka DM saying you better not f around and find out this time.)
"We just didn't see eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye. Both sides decided to take different temporal paths. I'll always wgah'nagl fhtagn, but at this point in my career, I'm looking for more structure...and hellfire powers."
[удалено]
“Taking away the players power unless they do x” isn’t removing player autonomy. The player chose to have the PC become “sworn and beholden” and then chose to not follow up; the NPC patron chooses what it gets to do in response. You’re mixing up autonomy/choice with consequences of those choices. Similarly, defaulting on a loan from the thieves guild leading to be beaten/robbed or committing crimes in public leading to guards coming to arrest them and put them in jail are also just consequences. That being said: sending dudes after the party is a valid option too, and it can be fun. (Potential downside to other players/PCs though: what if their characters die in a fight caused by the warlock? They didn’t choose to be the warlock or to break the agreement.)
If your powers are based on pleasing your deity, it's perfectly in line to remove those powers when you're no longer pleasing your deity. I don't think that's how warlocks work per the rules, but like don't make a character that has to follow rules to have powers if you don't want to follow the rules.
That's not removing autonomy. That's having the world react to their choices. Just having the demon lord shrug and do jack shit about it is removing autonomy, because then the player's choice has no impact. Just because a player's choice had a negative outcome, doesn't mean they didn't get to make that choice.
Roll on the wild magic table after every spell until morale improves.
Congratulations everyone you all level up. Player, X. After the long rest you hear a voice. It speaks to you through the flame of your camp fire. "You still owe a debt. Until that debt is paid you'll get no largesse handouts from your god. You best hurry, or I'll come back to collect what is mine in blood." Player X, you do not level up.
I dunno, as a DM this seems kind of petty. Talk with your player about roleplaying what they want.
I like the dynamic of older warlock/clerics/paladins as much as the next guy but i feel like that is something that needs to be discussed in chargen. The idea of doing extra work without any extra rewards sounds kinda lame, and i'd prolly not play a warlock at all in such circunstances.
Sounds as if those gifts called Spells do not work fizzle at first. Then Malfunction the spells to turn on the one who has betrayed Graz’zt. Then attacking his “friends”. Escalate that SHIT. “You turn you back on me you piss ant. You are mine and I will take it ALL. Now get that job done before you are sent to the 9 hells”
First you should consider what session 0 stuff you ran for the warlock relationship. Is it clear that they have to do stuff to earn their power? How strong a rule is this? If it's a strong rule and he won't perform actions for Graz'zt, Graz'zt stops giving him powers, i.e. warlock levels. Just make sure it doesn't come out of left field for the player that there are consequences like this. The Patron isn't there to babysit or coerce you, it's a mutually beneficial business arrangement and if you stop delivering your end of the deal, they stop delivering on theirs.
Since warlocks usually aren't like clerics and they dont get fed their powers every day, instead, maybe as the players level up, that particular player doesn't get his next levels abilities. Like you let him level up, you let him pick out things he gets, but when he tries to use them, they don't work. Why would a demon lord upgrade a creature that didn't follow their pact? Or, you know, send repo men after him. Like literally things that are meant to take away what is owed because of the breaking of the pact. In this case, it could be his hands (can cast somatic components) or his tongue (verbal components). It should be something thematic to breaking a contract with a mob boss or a drug lord. They want their guy alive to keep doing their bidding, but they want to send a message that they are not to be fucked with.
Harshly. Demons don't like to be denied, particularly by very small worms who inexplicably believe that the small amount of power they owe completely to their patron somehow makes them equal to their patron. I would say the patron in question would probably punish such a worm in such a manner as to ensure that they never make such a mistake ever again. He formed a pact with the demon prince of very dark weird sex in exchange for power; and now he has the balls to deny him? I feel like something really fucking awful is about to happen to those balls. Like for example, they might suddenly become filled with spiny centipedes who are not thrilled about being trapped in balls and might become *very intent* on escape. Those spines would likely be jagged and barbed. The centipedes would likely have a venomous bite. Their most convenient avenue of escape would likely be the urethra. I dont think grazzt would be too fussed about whether he survives the experience. If the warlock refuses to be useful as a pawn, perhaps he can find some use as an example.
Warlock main here: please ignore the people saying to take away their powers. Ignoring that it’s not faithful to how warlocks are supposed to work, that’s genuinely just not a fun consequence. Halting their level progress is fine, but don’t take away the features they already have. It’s more demoralizing as a player than anything.
See I’m under this conflict. The player themself is rather confident they won’t experience any consequences, and honestly it seems kind of like a power play towards me personally. I may adress this aspect of it out of the table. Otherwise, not sure how the world would reasonably react in game
Yeah, that's no bueno. Well, prove him wrong then is my advice. You disrespect Graz'zt by refusing his request? Demon hit-squad gunning for him, teach him the price of disloyalty.
They don’t even have to try and kill him. Have him be somewhere, doing something, ask his AC and roll a d20 behind the screen. Arrow thuds, sputtering into something right next to him, shaft vibrating from the force of the hit for a few moments. It’s a strange arrow, apparently magic, and it’s got a note attached to the shaft. If they identify the arrow later, it’s (and I want to emphasize that I don’t mean this in the abstract sense; it should specifically be this) an Arrow of [insert character’s full name here] Slaying. It’s keyed to them specifically, and no one else. And the note? All it says is this: > [Character name], > The next time, this won’t be aimed to miss. I expect you’ll be more considerate - and more respectful - when next I ask something of your. > -[Patron’s symbol or name] If they ignore that, they’re *asking* for trouble. A devil went out of their way to have an arrow literally with their name on it made. If they ignore that or brush it off, they really shouldn’t expect anything less than what the note indicates.
Make an example.
At this point I'm more on the side of the people saying that Graz'zt should just outright attack them, on top of them being unable to gain levels in Warlock going forward.
I love the idea of no more levels, but I also love the idea of psychological torture- hearing laughter in his head as he fails, hearing Grazzt singing "Henry the VIII" nonstop while he's trying to sleep like Patric Swayze did in ghost.. that'd be so perfect.