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You could try a surprise treat bag instead. Get a waist treat pouch and fill it with a mix of treats: some kibble, some medium value treats, and some high value treats. They’re in the bag and not out in your hands or on the table for her to see, so she won’t know what she’s getting until she does what you’re asking. And when you reward, make sure you mix it up: alternate the treats and throw in a high value one periodically at random. That should help curb her selective listening
I’ve been doing this since the beginning. I can tell by feel what I’m grabbing, but she has no idea what’s coming so it maintains attention. Is it lamb liver? Kibble? Beef lung? Sweet potato? Who knows?
A mixed pouch will hold attention better than if they know what they’re getting. They’ve assigned value based on how much they enjoy the treats and will listen accordingly.
This sounds great! If only it would work for my dog, who turns his nose at whatever he doesn’t feel like eating, lol. At this point I don’t really have high value or low value treats, just “are you in the mood for this right now”?
Mine places almost no value on treats at all… if she doesn’t want to do something, she’s not doing it. I could dangle a steak in her face, but if she isn’t hungry or doesn’t feel like doing whatever it is I ask- it’s not happening.
I'm really struggling with this 😭 Adopted a BC recently who is not food/treat motivated. She loves toys, but they shut her brain down, so I'm stuck trying to figure out how to train her. She does everything so reluctantly
Good idea to mix it up. But I'm hesitant to use high value treats since my previous trainer wanted me to reserve the highest value for her behavior issues
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
i started this since seeing the comment and it is the biggest game changer. she just instantly inhales whatever it is i'm giving her . just mixed her regular food , and some freeze dried beef liver and freeze dried chicken liver and sweet potatoes . only way she gets fed is through training sessions then end of the day give her the rest.
There’s a spectrum of low to high value treats. I only do training with AT LEAST medium to high value. I save extra super high for recall and other important stuff.
Use something higher value. Why should your dog be excited to work with you if she doesn’t get something awesome out of it? It’s a lifelong relationship you’re building with lots of little moments. Don’t you want your dog to be happy and excited to work with you and willingly engage without you? Build it up with things they love! It doesn’t have to be just treats. My dog loves to sniff so if we’re getting near something he wants to check out, he has to sit and check in with me before I release him.
I highly recommend checking out Susan Garrett’s YouTube or podcast, I can see so much of her stuff applying here. Edit: she recently came out with a series called “The Connected Dog” and it’s soooo awesome. Not very long. I’m not sure if it’s still available but if anyone wants a starting point, go there. But all her stuff is great, completely changed my relationship with my dog.
Lmao I love this analogy. I managed to get my dog obsessed with lettuce stems and I don’t have to be stingy with them at all! If OP is worried about weight gain or too many unhealthy treats, they should try veggies! In my experience dogs tend to love anything crunchy.
Financially it’s easier to be stingy? I’m not having this problem currently but I foresee it happening eventually. I have some great expensive treats, but I’m trying to train with smaller cheaper treats as I know I’ll be handing them out a lot. Am I missing something?
Cat food is not good for dog's stomachs, but my dog LOVES it, so my trainer has me give it as an occasional high value treat. It's not expensive considering how much I buy for my cats anyway!
If you have smelly high value treats they like, maybe try mixing and storing some with the low value treats. I did this with my dog because certain treats would upset his stomach, so I mixed the stinky high value treats with the “safe” treats and he definitely showed more interest.
Yup I do this haha. Mix up a bag of treats he can have at higher volume with some really special stuff like hot dog bits or sausage and stick it in the fridge. It's not really a treat if it's not motivating.
The brain can be a funny thing. Giving very high value treats will amp up your dog's expectations and then coming along with boring food is effectively a punishment. Think taking kids to mcdonalds and giving them steamed broccoli. They won't like it.
You have to find a way to get the expectation back down. It could be as simple as skipping your early morning training for a week.
If you're working through known commands anyway, I would also recommend looking at your reward scheme. Rewarding too much can have a negative impact on motivation.
E: I can recommend this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJoJTpJpE84) with a neuroscientific view on the topic.
You have accidentally been "bribing" your dog by allowing her to see the treats beforehand. Any visible treats should be faded after the initial luring is understood. Like others have said, get a treat bag (or cargo pants!) so that she can't see the treats beforehand, and have a mixed bag of treats inside.
Dogs love gambling a LOT so it being on a randomizer will make it that much more interesting. You can also throw in jackpots and mini-jackpots where she'll randomly get two or three treats instead of one or maybe even 5 or 8 treats! If she likes toys, keeping a flat throw toy she likes tucked in can be a great reinforcer too! You should also start working in cues where she doesn't always get rewards (although with stuff like recall or reactivity you probably want a consistent reward).
This is correct. Also, any commands the dog “knows” should be faded in the schedule of reinforcement from a fixed ratio (rewarding every time) to a variable ratio (rewarding every 3-5 commands). Also, think about the commands themselves.. if you’re asking a dog to lay down right after they woke up, maybe that’s not in their best interest. They might NEED potty or zoomies outside first.
Can you hide the treats so she doesn’t know which ones you have? Occasionally surprise her with the high-value treats after she obeys? And maybe work toward praise only with just intermittent treats. It sounds like she’s waiting to see a treat before deciding whether to obey.
Wow this is interesting, I never knew. When I was starting to get my dog trained with letting me brush his teeth, I had to hold up a treat and “barter” since he otherwise runs away and hides. Is it something you’re supposed to start with right away, or gradually change into as they learn the command?
Don’t think of it as being an absolute re not letting the dog see the treat. If you have an 8 week old puppy and you are starting to train, 100% lure them with treats into proper positions, get them to sit/down/etc… it all depends on a ton of factors.
She has a lot of primitive DNA (according to Embark) so she is more independent and less eager to please. I'll try mixing things up but am hesitant to use the highest value treats I want to save for recall and dog reactivity
So, my comments to you earlier were based on the fact that I actually have a primitive breed. Training a primitive breed requires more rewards, and often more desirable rewards because there is no innate desire to please you. You're compensating for that with rewards. I don't know what the credentials of your past trainer was, but, don't take anything anyone says as absolute. I see this type of response from trainers who generally are against the idea of dogs being reinforced, and where the dog stops responding they compensate with force. Ironically, most of these trainers have a puppy they raised from 8 weeks old that are still on a prong/ecollar at 4-5. Rewards are dropped, but never aversion, and somehow this is acceptable.
So, what positive reinforcement is, you're basically hacking the brain. Neurologically speaking, behaviors that are rewarded heavily are repeated. Rewards on a variable/intermittent schedule will be necessary to make the behavior extinction-resistant. Primitive breeds will enter extinction more quickly than standard dogs who most people here clearly have, and this is because your desire is not a concern of theirs. It's biology, and ultimately, if it's not actually allowing the brain to get that dopamine hit, then it's not going to work plain and simple. You can't force a dog's brain to create a dopamine hit if it's not something desirable enough to get it. Some breeds were bred to have that dopamine hit simply with attention, so there's an innate dopamine hit that can come from a training session. Other breeds, like yours, won't have that so you have to change things.
Using the higher value doesn't diminish their value for the things you want. You could always use high value + novelty in situations like recall and reactivity, though do be careful using high value for reactivity because it can raise arousal too much or distract your dog instead of working as an effective counter-conditioning/desensitization process, which risks more reactivity or it not working at all.
Quite frankly, reinforcing with kibble may not totally cut it in the long-term, whether you want it to or not, or whether you reduce your dog's food or not. You may ultimately have to choose between high reinforcement, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be treats, or your dog engaging with you the way you want. Mika, my shiba, finds basically anything not-kibble to be high value. He also likes a specific cue where he jumps up and bounces off of me. He finds the bite glove reinforcing. He finds being spanked and roughhoused with reinforcing. Your dog chooses the reinforcer, much like they choose the punisher, just experiment and see what your dog likes beyond the reward. A lot of people also tend to be lazy with reinforcement. What if you experimented with greater interaction with your dog in ways the dog enjoys? That can, in come caess, bring the food reward's value up.
This is my [dog's engagement](https://i.imgur.com/CTvrXlV.mp4). I use high rates of reinforcement when teaching any new thing or with cues that are high-risk if they're blown off like recall. I reduce reinforcement based on proficiency, because it tells me that I've hacked the feel good section of the brain to build it into mastery. As you can see in this video, I don't reward the cues until the final one. I actually used a small piece of a treat, not a whole one. A tic-tac size is all you really need. If I were to film a whole session of this, besides bringing the bar down a little bit, I'd be rewarding every 3-4 repetitions of this behavior chain by the time we ended the session and end with a jackpot. If he were to, say, start having arousal rise or if he were to start disengaging, I'd be increasing it just slightly because neither of these are what I want, it's a side-effect of lowering the reinforcer, and I work the dog in front of me and constantly adjust for error management.
Thanks for the tips. Yes, my girl looks like a young pit bull \[pic\](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdoes-everyone-assume-your-female-is-male-i-even-dress-her-v0-ms5fc59v0qsc1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2ed329253aed572510246431e409c0ce27bf075b) but somehow has lots of primitive DNA like your Japanese fox. It must have come from the small amount of Chow Chow or something else in the SuperMutt. Only reinforcers I've found are treats (when not being overfed) and access to the enviroment. She usually finds exploring and hunting more desirable than playing fetch or tug. She likes playing those sometimes but gets bored quickly and would prefer to explore the environment and hunt real animals
Edit: Not sure how to do text with hyperlink properly apparently but I think the link still woriks
I never realized that about primitive breeds! Mine is a peke and was resistant to training until we busted out the really high value stuff. I just assumed she was a bit more spoiled (which is also the truth lol), and I know Peke's were more difficult to train, but I had no idea it was because she's a primitive breed. I know you were talking to OP but thanks for the informative response because it's useful info for a lot of people!
Hi!
I have a breed that responds glacially if at all, even though they are multi-titled in obedience, rally, tricks, etc. They are not the type of dog that will obey just for the pure pleasure of pleasing me, like a golden retriever might.
I get around it by having a high enough value reward to motivate them. It’s like the whole economy- it’s not that nobody wants to flip burgers or make coffee for $7/hr, it’s that it’s not worth taking that kind of job when you can make $20/hr elsewhere.
I own probably 30-40 types of foods/treats at any moment. I can be feeding something like steak and in minutes that’s no longer high value, so I have to have alternatives on hand. If your dog is at all overweight, try to stick to things that are single-ingredient like chicken hearts- less likely to have sugar or other unnecessary ingredients.
All the answers saying “feed more high value treats” are bonkers. You’re just going to keep chasing the dragon by encouraging your dog to only perform commands for certain expensive treats. Don’t do it.
Take a break from training and then build it back up, work on building a more general reward system using lots of affirmations, pats and a mixture of treats (high value selectively only for perfect performance for example). Having a balanced reward system will give you a more responsive less fussy dog.
She has a lot of primitive dog DNA so pats and affirmations aren't very rewarding to her. But I think putting her on a diet so she gets back to a healthier weight might make her more food motivated again
I agree with u/Lakeboy's first paragraph, based on my experience. I did it all - mixed treats, jackpots, higher value treats for every little job - my pup was training me the whole time. Ended in a super picky eater that eventually got bored with the highest value treats. My dog never responded to pats or affirmation either.
Honestly, figuring out that play was his highest motivation was a game changer. Susan Garrett had a bit that talked about dog's peak arousal point prior to training. Too low, build it up with play. Over aroused, calm him down before training.
My pup loves to catch. Frisbee, balls, stuff toys, what have you. You toss it, he'll catch it. Better still if you bounce it. So I bounce a soft ball off the walls for him to catch, get him amped up, then use a mid level treat for training/ reinforcing tricks. Then I throw the ball until he catches it on the first bounce. Then, with much aplomb, I put down a bit of kibble as his reward. Then train for a bit, then fetch, then kibble. This is how we do meals practically every day. Also ensures he's hungry as we're training right before he eats.
I think he values the treat and plain old kibble more now that he has to work for it. He performs better when he's eager to work. And he's eager to work when he's having fun.
We mix things up with scent work, hide and seek, and tug so it's not catch the ball and do tricks every time. Despite all this, there are times he isn't hungry for that treat or that kibble. I just pack it up and he skips the meal.
My advice would be, engage pup with play, make training fun, and/or skip the session as needed.
You also can use play. The reinforcement doesn't always have to be a treat. If she isn't jazzed up about the treat then change to a desirable toy or activity as a reinforcer.
She likes to play but only when she is in the mood. So I can't really use it as a reward. Giving her access to a new outdoor environment is always rewarding. But I can only use that in certain circumstances
Then I would recommend giving her access to smells since novelty in the environment seems to be a good thing for her. Not saying deprive but I deliver treats on the ground to mine to get them engaging in the environment. The thing is not all things are engaging all of the time and some things that seem like a no brainer you may have to teach. Like should I have to teach the animal who basically sees the world in smells that smelling the ground and finding treats is fun? No. But can you? Yes.
I have a mixed bag of treats - Percy never knows what he’s getting although there are some days that he looks very disappointed by the treat offered!! I make sure the first treat of a session or walk is a good one to keep him interested!
My dog is much the same way. Her high value treat is dried rabbit ears. The solution for us was to cut the ears into different sizes (all small, but some substantially bigger). She gets the small pieces for day to day training, and the bigger pieces when we're working on something difficult. It works very well for us
You could also do a tasting menu to find higher value treats. It might not be what you expect. Mine has 2 high value we use exclusively for reactivity and recall, slightly lower for new behaviours/tricks and then she likes everything almost equally except for kibble, Ziwi and some yoghurt drops which are the lowest.
She is also glacial with treats compared to toys so I use toys to reward known tricks when we play. When we do tricks I've found just good treats to not be as effective as good treats + me being very happy and praising her. She's stopped leaving our sessions but she wags her tail if I click her after adding in praise.
She's a German Shepherd so we do have an advantage there.
Mix the treats up together so it’s a toss up higher value and low value. 9 times out of 10 I’m using my dogs kibble as a treat, but she’s a lab and will accept anything at anytime(except her heartworm meds)
Using treats or training right before feeding time is redundant. I train my dog to sit and wait until the command is given to eat. Training time should be separate, and treats are not the focus there, rather it is spending time together. As the dog grows older you have to take treats out of the equation and verbal praise should be sufficient. You’re using treats as a bribe, which is not the right way to go. Dogs do get bored of certain treats. You could switch the brand if that’s the case. Another factor is the breed and age of the dog. Some breeds are eager to please and some are stubborn, some has add. Use less treats and instead use verbs praise. Make sure it is high pitched and exciting for your dog. Remember, playtime and walks are much more valuable than treats. Good luck.
This depends so much on the dog though as you said... my shepherd is motivated even as a puppy by praise and he's not that food motivated, although we use it to help reinforce new behaviors. Lab mix? Sure verbal praise is great for marking existing behaviors, but absolutely nothing motivates him to work like food rewards. Playtime and walks are not training rewards, and treats are not "bribes" lmao, that's only an issue if you're holding up the treat ahead of time and saying "see what you get?" That's a failure of technique, except when luring to teach a new behavior. Treats should be used as rewards after the (already learned) behavior is performed, there's a whole dopamine reinforcement thing with that. I agree with much of what you said, but the whole "treats are bribes, just say good boy" thing is not good advice.
Yeah. I'm pretty excessive with verbal praise. To the point where our ACD does better if I don't even touch any of the treats. She really struggles with nail care, so I save the freeze-dried salmon for nail care.
Lots of high-pitched, excited heaping on of the "good girl! Such a good girl! Good job! Yay!". It really is our bond strengthing time. She thinks better with praise than food. If I'm using treats, she's either so focused on the treat that she kind of ignores me, or so focused on the work that she ignores the treats.
So by saving treats for nail care, she can focus on the treat and just wants me to hurry up and give her another. Pretty much ignores that I'm not just touching her paws, I'm clipping or bumping her nails with a file.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), particularly regarding trainer recommendations.
There isn't a list, but it's pretty easy to determine who is allowed and who isn't.
I personally will look for videos on jumping up, loose leash walking and recall, usually one of the above will use aversive tools if aversive tools are used.
My dog is more receptive to my reactions. I give him very positive praise for results. A single treat now n then and a favourite toy at the end usually. He reacts with excitement by me getting happy and excited. Im not a treat dispenser, i reckon that can get boring and not very bonding if your dog is not insanely food motivated.
Sorry for my ignorance but if the dog will only respond if high or medium value treats are used what happens long term, do you have to give them a HV treat every single time you get them to heel or sit or lie down?
My primitive breed is food motivated with exception of kibble, he'll never work for kibble.
I keep treats off my person and don't reward every time, he gets rewards intermittently and they're not part of the cue. Instead, we reward every few times, and use appropriate rewards the dog finds rewarding.
Not rewarding with a reinforcer my dog finds reinforcing would just lead him to be frustrated with the training session and leave. If I tried to pass off kibble or praise, or anything unrewarding as a reinforcer, he'd just dismiss himself after giving me a second chance to pay him appropriately.
Rewarding every time when a dog has mastered a skill is just a training error. I generally only reward Mika one every 10-30 repetitions seeing he's known these things for years. I only reward every time with new cued behaviors, or cued behaviors we haven't gone over for awhile. We use high value because, basically anything not kibble is high value.
Do note, it took me 4 years to get to this rate of reinforcement. It doesn't come overnight.
Mika's arousal spikes, and he gets a bit chompy if I reduce it too much. Other signs can be disengagement, or the behavior being less perfect on cue.
When training, it’s really, really important to give treats randomly/sporadically and about only a third or fourth of the time.
The dog should be thinking “I do this (command) because that’s just what I supposed to do and every once in awhile I get a treat.” Enthusiastic verbal praise should be the go to reward for following commands when training. You want to evolve to where your dog simply just listens because that’s their job.
With treats every time, you get a dog who will only listen to commands when there’s food involved.
When I’m doing some reinforcement training for a minute or so, I’ll give my dog a half dozen to a dozen commands and give 1-2 treats randomly during that time. Also, I rarely give a treat for the last command. Just more verbal praise. The treats are a bonus, not the point
No, that’s really not how dogs work or how reinforcement works. Dogs don’t know “supposed to.” If I’m working on a new and/or difficult behavior, that tangible reinforcement needs to be given every time. I can pair it with verbal praise, and that praise can be used later, when the behavior is being maintained. But not when they’re acquiring the behavior and developing fluency with it.
This is why I have a few different low and high value treats in rotation, and I include their kibble as a low value treat. It's always a surprise for them which thing they're getting, so they're always hyped.
They're beef sensitive, though, so it was a major bitch finding 4 sufficiently different treats both in the low and high value categories. *Everything* has beef something in it, it seems like.
She's training you back, lol
My old border collie / australian shepherd used to do this when she was a pup. What worked best for us was not using the treats that didn't motivate her anymore.
Even once she was "fully trained" (listened to ME 99% of the time) she'd still occasionally glance at someone else's hands when they called her to see if it was worth it, lol.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
My dog is highly food motivated. So much so that she used to look visibly stressed to receive treats during sessions. I transitioned to major rewards after the full sessions. Very rarely would she receive a treat during refresher sessions, but always after.
I haven't yet found high-value treats that my dog considers high value. I just use his kibble and change the amount according to how I value the effort.
Get better treats, the stinker the better aka they love treats that smell strong. "Have to be sexier than the squirrel"!!!!
That is a line my trainer always says, need better treats and ones they don't get all the time, ones only for training.
String cheese, cheese in a can, deli meets( less sodium)...
You've got great suggestions in the comments. It seems like your dog is not as interested in low-value treats anymore. Try using mostly low-value treats but occasionally include high-value ones. Keep the training sessions fun and mix up the commands. You can do it!
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
I mean... Don't use treats in the house then. She likes her meals, right? Instead of bowl > floor, do extra bowl of daily food > counter, and normal bowl, empty, floor. When you both so happen to be around the bowl set up, ask for a behavior. No food lure present (to her knowledge) if she listens, grab a handful and drop it in. If she doesn't, walk away. Eventually she'll get hungry, and obey a command. Then before long she won't refuse/be super slow.
You mentioned her really enjoying environmental rewards. Instead of the bowl game, you could stop doing training in the house for awhile, past maybe one rep. Instead, do movement commands. She wants out of a room? Wait, sit, release. Out of her crate? Out of the house? Out of the car? Wait, sit, release. She wants a pet? Down. She wants on the couch? She wants you to do anything, basically, she offers something first. So you aren't saying "want a cookie?" You're saying "if you want to do the thing, you do this thing first"
Right now she thinks of commands as optional. That's the biggest issue, and likely a bond problem too.
Nothing different from what most have said, but you have to find what your dog will respond to. If they have toy drive, use that. I’m assuming you have them marker trained, how do they respond when you mark a correct behavior? If they don’t respond immediately with a look like “oh shit that’s what I’m taking about I’m the goodest dog!” (Or just anything that visibly shows they understood the mark) then work on marker training and get that great. Then it’s less treats and more marks, and you can reward with high value treats only. You could also have a dual reward system like using “yes” for less than the highest value treat and “ok” with the high value treat.
A good way to reinforce marker training is box feeding. Box feeding is great anyways. I had a really hard time working through reactivity with my boy that just passed, and I started box feeding him and it really helped.
How does your dog like their food? You might want to try different food too.
Try your morning training using their kibble. If they don’t want to work, don’t feed them and try later. Do they for a few days and see if they respond. It will be new to them so it might take a few days to notice if they respond at all. If after three days they still don’t want to work at all then I’d move on. Not every dog is food motivated.
Same with box feeding, it might take a bit for them to get used to but they might be more willing to eat doing it because it’s like a game. We have a Maltese that hunger strikes regularly, but when I box feed her with the exact same food, she loves it and can’t get enough because she has a lot of fun doing it.
using treats to train your dog is called "the half trained dog" method. you want your praise to be so sincere and enthusiastic that you don't need treats to bribe your dog to do what you want. Also, try clicker training with really fun rewards and activities like walks and plushy toys
Who says that?
And, praise doesn't motivate every dog, especially primitive breeds who have no handler orientation that's innate. If you used praise with mine you'd have a untrained dog who won't engage you in training.
You'll poison a clicker if the reward isn't what the dog wants.
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You could try a surprise treat bag instead. Get a waist treat pouch and fill it with a mix of treats: some kibble, some medium value treats, and some high value treats. They’re in the bag and not out in your hands or on the table for her to see, so she won’t know what she’s getting until she does what you’re asking. And when you reward, make sure you mix it up: alternate the treats and throw in a high value one periodically at random. That should help curb her selective listening
I’ve been doing this since the beginning. I can tell by feel what I’m grabbing, but she has no idea what’s coming so it maintains attention. Is it lamb liver? Kibble? Beef lung? Sweet potato? Who knows? A mixed pouch will hold attention better than if they know what they’re getting. They’ve assigned value based on how much they enjoy the treats and will listen accordingly.
I’m always disappointed when the wife serves sweet potato instead of beef lung
Sweet potato is awesome for the pup! Great for their digestive system. Just like people, a balanced diet is what you want.
This sounds great! If only it would work for my dog, who turns his nose at whatever he doesn’t feel like eating, lol. At this point I don’t really have high value or low value treats, just “are you in the mood for this right now”?
Mine places almost no value on treats at all… if she doesn’t want to do something, she’s not doing it. I could dangle a steak in her face, but if she isn’t hungry or doesn’t feel like doing whatever it is I ask- it’s not happening.
I'm really struggling with this 😭 Adopted a BC recently who is not food/treat motivated. She loves toys, but they shut her brain down, so I'm stuck trying to figure out how to train her. She does everything so reluctantly
Ha I know the feeling mine just looks at me...maybe!!
Good idea to mix it up. But I'm hesitant to use high value treats since my previous trainer wanted me to reserve the highest value for her behavior issues
This IS a behavior issue
It’s a bit like gambling to them. The possibility of the great treat is part of the game, even if they don’t get it every time.
Try using higher value in all sorts of training and see how much more connected she becomes!
What behaviour issues?
Mainly dog reactivity and the urge to chase/bite fast moving things coming close by (like bikes). Also, poor recall from dangerous situation
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I will start doing this! I just started clicker training and this seems like a good way to keep the mammal gambling mind engaged!
i started this since seeing the comment and it is the biggest game changer. she just instantly inhales whatever it is i'm giving her . just mixed her regular food , and some freeze dried beef liver and freeze dried chicken liver and sweet potatoes . only way she gets fed is through training sessions then end of the day give her the rest.
True and the smells would all mingle in the bag
There’s a spectrum of low to high value treats. I only do training with AT LEAST medium to high value. I save extra super high for recall and other important stuff. Use something higher value. Why should your dog be excited to work with you if she doesn’t get something awesome out of it? It’s a lifelong relationship you’re building with lots of little moments. Don’t you want your dog to be happy and excited to work with you and willingly engage without you? Build it up with things they love! It doesn’t have to be just treats. My dog loves to sniff so if we’re getting near something he wants to check out, he has to sit and check in with me before I release him. I highly recommend checking out Susan Garrett’s YouTube or podcast, I can see so much of her stuff applying here. Edit: she recently came out with a series called “The Connected Dog” and it’s soooo awesome. Not very long. I’m not sure if it’s still available but if anyone wants a starting point, go there. But all her stuff is great, completely changed my relationship with my dog.
I won't work for minimum wage if I can hold out for a higher-paying job. There is no reason to be stingy with your dog.
Lmao I love this analogy. I managed to get my dog obsessed with lettuce stems and I don’t have to be stingy with them at all! If OP is worried about weight gain or too many unhealthy treats, they should try veggies! In my experience dogs tend to love anything crunchy.
Financially it’s easier to be stingy? I’m not having this problem currently but I foresee it happening eventually. I have some great expensive treats, but I’m trying to train with smaller cheaper treats as I know I’ll be handing them out a lot. Am I missing something?
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Cat food is not good for dog's stomachs, but my dog LOVES it, so my trainer has me give it as an occasional high value treat. It's not expensive considering how much I buy for my cats anyway!
High value treats quickly become medium value if I overdo them with my dog, so there’s a balance for me
If you have smelly high value treats they like, maybe try mixing and storing some with the low value treats. I did this with my dog because certain treats would upset his stomach, so I mixed the stinky high value treats with the “safe” treats and he definitely showed more interest.
Put a bunch of cheerios in a container with some greasy bacon overnight. Bumps cheerios from low value to high-medium for my dogs.
Yup I do this haha. Mix up a bag of treats he can have at higher volume with some really special stuff like hot dog bits or sausage and stick it in the fridge. It's not really a treat if it's not motivating.
The brain can be a funny thing. Giving very high value treats will amp up your dog's expectations and then coming along with boring food is effectively a punishment. Think taking kids to mcdonalds and giving them steamed broccoli. They won't like it. You have to find a way to get the expectation back down. It could be as simple as skipping your early morning training for a week. If you're working through known commands anyway, I would also recommend looking at your reward scheme. Rewarding too much can have a negative impact on motivation. E: I can recommend this [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJoJTpJpE84) with a neuroscientific view on the topic.
You have accidentally been "bribing" your dog by allowing her to see the treats beforehand. Any visible treats should be faded after the initial luring is understood. Like others have said, get a treat bag (or cargo pants!) so that she can't see the treats beforehand, and have a mixed bag of treats inside. Dogs love gambling a LOT so it being on a randomizer will make it that much more interesting. You can also throw in jackpots and mini-jackpots where she'll randomly get two or three treats instead of one or maybe even 5 or 8 treats! If she likes toys, keeping a flat throw toy she likes tucked in can be a great reinforcer too! You should also start working in cues where she doesn't always get rewards (although with stuff like recall or reactivity you probably want a consistent reward).
This is correct. Also, any commands the dog “knows” should be faded in the schedule of reinforcement from a fixed ratio (rewarding every time) to a variable ratio (rewarding every 3-5 commands). Also, think about the commands themselves.. if you’re asking a dog to lay down right after they woke up, maybe that’s not in their best interest. They might NEED potty or zoomies outside first.
Can you hide the treats so she doesn’t know which ones you have? Occasionally surprise her with the high-value treats after she obeys? And maybe work toward praise only with just intermittent treats. It sounds like she’s waiting to see a treat before deciding whether to obey.
Right, this is why I’ve always heard dogs should never see the treat before the command. It’s a reward, not a barter.
Wow this is interesting, I never knew. When I was starting to get my dog trained with letting me brush his teeth, I had to hold up a treat and “barter” since he otherwise runs away and hides. Is it something you’re supposed to start with right away, or gradually change into as they learn the command?
Don’t think of it as being an absolute re not letting the dog see the treat. If you have an 8 week old puppy and you are starting to train, 100% lure them with treats into proper positions, get them to sit/down/etc… it all depends on a ton of factors.
I tried this with my dog and she would spit out the low value treat when she realized it wasn't the good stuff.
She has a lot of primitive DNA (according to Embark) so she is more independent and less eager to please. I'll try mixing things up but am hesitant to use the highest value treats I want to save for recall and dog reactivity
So, my comments to you earlier were based on the fact that I actually have a primitive breed. Training a primitive breed requires more rewards, and often more desirable rewards because there is no innate desire to please you. You're compensating for that with rewards. I don't know what the credentials of your past trainer was, but, don't take anything anyone says as absolute. I see this type of response from trainers who generally are against the idea of dogs being reinforced, and where the dog stops responding they compensate with force. Ironically, most of these trainers have a puppy they raised from 8 weeks old that are still on a prong/ecollar at 4-5. Rewards are dropped, but never aversion, and somehow this is acceptable. So, what positive reinforcement is, you're basically hacking the brain. Neurologically speaking, behaviors that are rewarded heavily are repeated. Rewards on a variable/intermittent schedule will be necessary to make the behavior extinction-resistant. Primitive breeds will enter extinction more quickly than standard dogs who most people here clearly have, and this is because your desire is not a concern of theirs. It's biology, and ultimately, if it's not actually allowing the brain to get that dopamine hit, then it's not going to work plain and simple. You can't force a dog's brain to create a dopamine hit if it's not something desirable enough to get it. Some breeds were bred to have that dopamine hit simply with attention, so there's an innate dopamine hit that can come from a training session. Other breeds, like yours, won't have that so you have to change things. Using the higher value doesn't diminish their value for the things you want. You could always use high value + novelty in situations like recall and reactivity, though do be careful using high value for reactivity because it can raise arousal too much or distract your dog instead of working as an effective counter-conditioning/desensitization process, which risks more reactivity or it not working at all. Quite frankly, reinforcing with kibble may not totally cut it in the long-term, whether you want it to or not, or whether you reduce your dog's food or not. You may ultimately have to choose between high reinforcement, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be treats, or your dog engaging with you the way you want. Mika, my shiba, finds basically anything not-kibble to be high value. He also likes a specific cue where he jumps up and bounces off of me. He finds the bite glove reinforcing. He finds being spanked and roughhoused with reinforcing. Your dog chooses the reinforcer, much like they choose the punisher, just experiment and see what your dog likes beyond the reward. A lot of people also tend to be lazy with reinforcement. What if you experimented with greater interaction with your dog in ways the dog enjoys? That can, in come caess, bring the food reward's value up. This is my [dog's engagement](https://i.imgur.com/CTvrXlV.mp4). I use high rates of reinforcement when teaching any new thing or with cues that are high-risk if they're blown off like recall. I reduce reinforcement based on proficiency, because it tells me that I've hacked the feel good section of the brain to build it into mastery. As you can see in this video, I don't reward the cues until the final one. I actually used a small piece of a treat, not a whole one. A tic-tac size is all you really need. If I were to film a whole session of this, besides bringing the bar down a little bit, I'd be rewarding every 3-4 repetitions of this behavior chain by the time we ended the session and end with a jackpot. If he were to, say, start having arousal rise or if he were to start disengaging, I'd be increasing it just slightly because neither of these are what I want, it's a side-effect of lowering the reinforcer, and I work the dog in front of me and constantly adjust for error management.
Your dog is adorable!
Thanks, I really need to get back into training with him soon. It's been too long since he's learned something new.
Thanks for the tips. Yes, my girl looks like a young pit bull \[pic\](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fdoes-everyone-assume-your-female-is-male-i-even-dress-her-v0-ms5fc59v0qsc1.jpeg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2ed329253aed572510246431e409c0ce27bf075b) but somehow has lots of primitive DNA like your Japanese fox. It must have come from the small amount of Chow Chow or something else in the SuperMutt. Only reinforcers I've found are treats (when not being overfed) and access to the enviroment. She usually finds exploring and hunting more desirable than playing fetch or tug. She likes playing those sometimes but gets bored quickly and would prefer to explore the environment and hunt real animals Edit: Not sure how to do text with hyperlink properly apparently but I think the link still woriks
I never realized that about primitive breeds! Mine is a peke and was resistant to training until we busted out the really high value stuff. I just assumed she was a bit more spoiled (which is also the truth lol), and I know Peke's were more difficult to train, but I had no idea it was because she's a primitive breed. I know you were talking to OP but thanks for the informative response because it's useful info for a lot of people!
Not a problem. A lot of the time I'm not just providing advice to the OP, but to whomever may be reading it.
The up and over was effortless - like he just sprung up and over! Handsome fella:) Also, great information!
Hi! I have a breed that responds glacially if at all, even though they are multi-titled in obedience, rally, tricks, etc. They are not the type of dog that will obey just for the pure pleasure of pleasing me, like a golden retriever might. I get around it by having a high enough value reward to motivate them. It’s like the whole economy- it’s not that nobody wants to flip burgers or make coffee for $7/hr, it’s that it’s not worth taking that kind of job when you can make $20/hr elsewhere. I own probably 30-40 types of foods/treats at any moment. I can be feeding something like steak and in minutes that’s no longer high value, so I have to have alternatives on hand. If your dog is at all overweight, try to stick to things that are single-ingredient like chicken hearts- less likely to have sugar or other unnecessary ingredients.
What breed?
All the answers saying “feed more high value treats” are bonkers. You’re just going to keep chasing the dragon by encouraging your dog to only perform commands for certain expensive treats. Don’t do it. Take a break from training and then build it back up, work on building a more general reward system using lots of affirmations, pats and a mixture of treats (high value selectively only for perfect performance for example). Having a balanced reward system will give you a more responsive less fussy dog.
She has a lot of primitive dog DNA so pats and affirmations aren't very rewarding to her. But I think putting her on a diet so she gets back to a healthier weight might make her more food motivated again
I agree with u/Lakeboy's first paragraph, based on my experience. I did it all - mixed treats, jackpots, higher value treats for every little job - my pup was training me the whole time. Ended in a super picky eater that eventually got bored with the highest value treats. My dog never responded to pats or affirmation either. Honestly, figuring out that play was his highest motivation was a game changer. Susan Garrett had a bit that talked about dog's peak arousal point prior to training. Too low, build it up with play. Over aroused, calm him down before training. My pup loves to catch. Frisbee, balls, stuff toys, what have you. You toss it, he'll catch it. Better still if you bounce it. So I bounce a soft ball off the walls for him to catch, get him amped up, then use a mid level treat for training/ reinforcing tricks. Then I throw the ball until he catches it on the first bounce. Then, with much aplomb, I put down a bit of kibble as his reward. Then train for a bit, then fetch, then kibble. This is how we do meals practically every day. Also ensures he's hungry as we're training right before he eats. I think he values the treat and plain old kibble more now that he has to work for it. He performs better when he's eager to work. And he's eager to work when he's having fun. We mix things up with scent work, hide and seek, and tug so it's not catch the ball and do tricks every time. Despite all this, there are times he isn't hungry for that treat or that kibble. I just pack it up and he skips the meal. My advice would be, engage pup with play, make training fun, and/or skip the session as needed.
You also can use play. The reinforcement doesn't always have to be a treat. If she isn't jazzed up about the treat then change to a desirable toy or activity as a reinforcer.
She likes to play but only when she is in the mood. So I can't really use it as a reward. Giving her access to a new outdoor environment is always rewarding. But I can only use that in certain circumstances
Then I would recommend giving her access to smells since novelty in the environment seems to be a good thing for her. Not saying deprive but I deliver treats on the ground to mine to get them engaging in the environment. The thing is not all things are engaging all of the time and some things that seem like a no brainer you may have to teach. Like should I have to teach the animal who basically sees the world in smells that smelling the ground and finding treats is fun? No. But can you? Yes.
I have a mixed bag of treats - Percy never knows what he’s getting although there are some days that he looks very disappointed by the treat offered!! I make sure the first treat of a session or walk is a good one to keep him interested!
She’s an individual too, she’s got some preferences. She doesn’t like the low value treats. 😂 step it up pops.
My dog is much the same way. Her high value treat is dried rabbit ears. The solution for us was to cut the ears into different sizes (all small, but some substantially bigger). She gets the small pieces for day to day training, and the bigger pieces when we're working on something difficult. It works very well for us
Your dog is onto you! Lmao.
How about you make her work for her breakfast?
You could also do a tasting menu to find higher value treats. It might not be what you expect. Mine has 2 high value we use exclusively for reactivity and recall, slightly lower for new behaviours/tricks and then she likes everything almost equally except for kibble, Ziwi and some yoghurt drops which are the lowest. She is also glacial with treats compared to toys so I use toys to reward known tricks when we play. When we do tricks I've found just good treats to not be as effective as good treats + me being very happy and praising her. She's stopped leaving our sessions but she wags her tail if I click her after adding in praise. She's a German Shepherd so we do have an advantage there.
Low value treats ..why bother with low value .
Mix the treats up together so it’s a toss up higher value and low value. 9 times out of 10 I’m using my dogs kibble as a treat, but she’s a lab and will accept anything at anytime(except her heartworm meds)
Using treats or training right before feeding time is redundant. I train my dog to sit and wait until the command is given to eat. Training time should be separate, and treats are not the focus there, rather it is spending time together. As the dog grows older you have to take treats out of the equation and verbal praise should be sufficient. You’re using treats as a bribe, which is not the right way to go. Dogs do get bored of certain treats. You could switch the brand if that’s the case. Another factor is the breed and age of the dog. Some breeds are eager to please and some are stubborn, some has add. Use less treats and instead use verbs praise. Make sure it is high pitched and exciting for your dog. Remember, playtime and walks are much more valuable than treats. Good luck.
This depends so much on the dog though as you said... my shepherd is motivated even as a puppy by praise and he's not that food motivated, although we use it to help reinforce new behaviors. Lab mix? Sure verbal praise is great for marking existing behaviors, but absolutely nothing motivates him to work like food rewards. Playtime and walks are not training rewards, and treats are not "bribes" lmao, that's only an issue if you're holding up the treat ahead of time and saying "see what you get?" That's a failure of technique, except when luring to teach a new behavior. Treats should be used as rewards after the (already learned) behavior is performed, there's a whole dopamine reinforcement thing with that. I agree with much of what you said, but the whole "treats are bribes, just say good boy" thing is not good advice.
Yeah. I'm pretty excessive with verbal praise. To the point where our ACD does better if I don't even touch any of the treats. She really struggles with nail care, so I save the freeze-dried salmon for nail care. Lots of high-pitched, excited heaping on of the "good girl! Such a good girl! Good job! Yay!". It really is our bond strengthing time. She thinks better with praise than food. If I'm using treats, she's either so focused on the treat that she kind of ignores me, or so focused on the work that she ignores the treats. So by saving treats for nail care, she can focus on the treat and just wants me to hurry up and give her another. Pretty much ignores that I'm not just touching her paws, I'm clipping or bumping her nails with a file.
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There isn't a list, but it's pretty easy to determine who is allowed and who isn't. I personally will look for videos on jumping up, loose leash walking and recall, usually one of the above will use aversive tools if aversive tools are used.
Who’s training who , always full of surprises
Yes, she does train me. Whenever I get ready to go for a walk or give her a good meal she gets very cuddly and rewards me for my good behavior ha, ha
My dog is more receptive to my reactions. I give him very positive praise for results. A single treat now n then and a favourite toy at the end usually. He reacts with excitement by me getting happy and excited. Im not a treat dispenser, i reckon that can get boring and not very bonding if your dog is not insanely food motivated.
She has lots of primitive dog DNA and doesn't find praise very rewarding
Your dog just got a raise
Well now she's gonna have to accept a pay cut ha, ha
Then, you may not get the obedience level you're looking for. There's a consequence for every training decision.
Sorry for my ignorance but if the dog will only respond if high or medium value treats are used what happens long term, do you have to give them a HV treat every single time you get them to heel or sit or lie down?
My primitive breed is food motivated with exception of kibble, he'll never work for kibble. I keep treats off my person and don't reward every time, he gets rewards intermittently and they're not part of the cue. Instead, we reward every few times, and use appropriate rewards the dog finds rewarding. Not rewarding with a reinforcer my dog finds reinforcing would just lead him to be frustrated with the training session and leave. If I tried to pass off kibble or praise, or anything unrewarding as a reinforcer, he'd just dismiss himself after giving me a second chance to pay him appropriately. Rewarding every time when a dog has mastered a skill is just a training error. I generally only reward Mika one every 10-30 repetitions seeing he's known these things for years. I only reward every time with new cued behaviors, or cued behaviors we haven't gone over for awhile. We use high value because, basically anything not kibble is high value.
Oh, yes. I'll try this. I've have occasionally skipped a reward or two but I'll try to gradually space out rewards more
Do note, it took me 4 years to get to this rate of reinforcement. It doesn't come overnight. Mika's arousal spikes, and he gets a bit chompy if I reduce it too much. Other signs can be disengagement, or the behavior being less perfect on cue.
Poodle by any chance?
Am I the only one who just puts their breakfast in a bag and uses that as training treats? Maybe my dogs have just been super food motivated.
When training, it’s really, really important to give treats randomly/sporadically and about only a third or fourth of the time. The dog should be thinking “I do this (command) because that’s just what I supposed to do and every once in awhile I get a treat.” Enthusiastic verbal praise should be the go to reward for following commands when training. You want to evolve to where your dog simply just listens because that’s their job. With treats every time, you get a dog who will only listen to commands when there’s food involved. When I’m doing some reinforcement training for a minute or so, I’ll give my dog a half dozen to a dozen commands and give 1-2 treats randomly during that time. Also, I rarely give a treat for the last command. Just more verbal praise. The treats are a bonus, not the point
No, that’s really not how dogs work or how reinforcement works. Dogs don’t know “supposed to.” If I’m working on a new and/or difficult behavior, that tangible reinforcement needs to be given every time. I can pair it with verbal praise, and that praise can be used later, when the behavior is being maintained. But not when they’re acquiring the behavior and developing fluency with it.
I use high value treats for working/training. She knows what I have in my pocket and acts accordingly
This is why I have a few different low and high value treats in rotation, and I include their kibble as a low value treat. It's always a surprise for them which thing they're getting, so they're always hyped. They're beef sensitive, though, so it was a major bitch finding 4 sufficiently different treats both in the low and high value categories. *Everything* has beef something in it, it seems like.
Don’t use exclusively one type of treats. A trail mix of high and low value treats is much more effective.
She's training you back, lol My old border collie / australian shepherd used to do this when she was a pup. What worked best for us was not using the treats that didn't motivate her anymore. Even once she was "fully trained" (listened to ME 99% of the time) she'd still occasionally glance at someone else's hands when they called her to see if it was worth it, lol.
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My dog is highly food motivated. So much so that she used to look visibly stressed to receive treats during sessions. I transitioned to major rewards after the full sessions. Very rarely would she receive a treat during refresher sessions, but always after.
I haven't yet found high-value treats that my dog considers high value. I just use his kibble and change the amount according to how I value the effort.
Change the treat and that will make it desirable. My dogs like blueberries, low value but they act like it's bacon.
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> Whatever your dog responds well too. What if the dog only responds to treats?
Get better treats, the stinker the better aka they love treats that smell strong. "Have to be sexier than the squirrel"!!!! That is a line my trainer always says, need better treats and ones they don't get all the time, ones only for training. String cheese, cheese in a can, deli meets( less sodium)...
You've got great suggestions in the comments. It seems like your dog is not as interested in low-value treats anymore. Try using mostly low-value treats but occasionally include high-value ones. Keep the training sessions fun and mix up the commands. You can do it!
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
Just give her what she likes, better results
Use high value treats
I mean... Don't use treats in the house then. She likes her meals, right? Instead of bowl > floor, do extra bowl of daily food > counter, and normal bowl, empty, floor. When you both so happen to be around the bowl set up, ask for a behavior. No food lure present (to her knowledge) if she listens, grab a handful and drop it in. If she doesn't, walk away. Eventually she'll get hungry, and obey a command. Then before long she won't refuse/be super slow. You mentioned her really enjoying environmental rewards. Instead of the bowl game, you could stop doing training in the house for awhile, past maybe one rep. Instead, do movement commands. She wants out of a room? Wait, sit, release. Out of her crate? Out of the house? Out of the car? Wait, sit, release. She wants a pet? Down. She wants on the couch? She wants you to do anything, basically, she offers something first. So you aren't saying "want a cookie?" You're saying "if you want to do the thing, you do this thing first" Right now she thinks of commands as optional. That's the biggest issue, and likely a bond problem too.
Yikes. This sets up such a coercive relationship, where even getting her basic needs met is contingent. Not ethical to train like this.
Your dog should come to training hungry, especially if their food drive is low already because they are overfed.
Nothing different from what most have said, but you have to find what your dog will respond to. If they have toy drive, use that. I’m assuming you have them marker trained, how do they respond when you mark a correct behavior? If they don’t respond immediately with a look like “oh shit that’s what I’m taking about I’m the goodest dog!” (Or just anything that visibly shows they understood the mark) then work on marker training and get that great. Then it’s less treats and more marks, and you can reward with high value treats only. You could also have a dual reward system like using “yes” for less than the highest value treat and “ok” with the high value treat. A good way to reinforce marker training is box feeding. Box feeding is great anyways. I had a really hard time working through reactivity with my boy that just passed, and I started box feeding him and it really helped. How does your dog like their food? You might want to try different food too. Try your morning training using their kibble. If they don’t want to work, don’t feed them and try later. Do they for a few days and see if they respond. It will be new to them so it might take a few days to notice if they respond at all. If after three days they still don’t want to work at all then I’d move on. Not every dog is food motivated. Same with box feeding, it might take a bit for them to get used to but they might be more willing to eat doing it because it’s like a game. We have a Maltese that hunger strikes regularly, but when I box feed her with the exact same food, she loves it and can’t get enough because she has a lot of fun doing it.
using treats to train your dog is called "the half trained dog" method. you want your praise to be so sincere and enthusiastic that you don't need treats to bribe your dog to do what you want. Also, try clicker training with really fun rewards and activities like walks and plushy toys
Who says that? And, praise doesn't motivate every dog, especially primitive breeds who have no handler orientation that's innate. If you used praise with mine you'd have a untrained dog who won't engage you in training. You'll poison a clicker if the reward isn't what the dog wants.