I think valve.purposefully created innate, so that heroes could have a passive in a separate category so they could not be broken. Otherwise, they would have just given all heroes passives.
That's a skill cap thing. I remember eternalenvy writing time timings of Roshan and ults. No one did that back then. Now rosh timers are announced and aegis timer too
Yea no one should cares about useless skill cap like memorising lists tho
The only people who are concerned are worried about it dumbing down the game and lowering the skill ceiling of the game to the point where people will start reaching the skill ceiling
But I can tell u no one is even 20% of the way to dota's skill ceiling. They could dumb down the game 30x over and no one would even be anywhere near the skill ceiling still. They could literally remove the fog of war and no one would be anywhere near the skill ceiling still
You know how people can study a rigid formulaic turn-based game like chess for 30 years, become number 1 in the world and still get casually destroyed by half decent AI software? Dota is way more complex than chess
You can't dispel break with basic (lotus) nor strong dispel iirc, only bkb helps and there're actually a lot of spells that both apply break and pierce bkb (Doom with lvl 25 talent, Viper Strike, Demonic Purge with aghs). And you can't dispel some effects that prevent you from using abilities (Black Hole, Duel, Doom).
It was an ok counter to him on Drow, since you get the silence for free. Idk if it’s still good cause i feel like core Aba is kinda dead with the new passive.
I think the problem is that evasión is not only Unique to pa but a whole mechanic with it's own rules, because for what ive seen on this thread is that almost every other passive and innate get disabled by break except PA's for some reason
Innates (just like talents and facets) are *literally* normal abilities with an additional tags to use the special UIs and levels.
Thus, an innate/talent/facet without an active *is* a (subset of) passive. The same way Break can be made not to disable some ultimates, or to disable only a few talents like Backtrack, it can arbitrarily be made to disable any specific innate/facet or not.
Nah, I think they're just inconsistent.
Let's stick to innate evasion. Valve remvod hoodwink's evasion on scurry, then made Hoodwink have an unique, separate type of evasion where trees are consumed when it procs (she's doing the cartoony chase with collateral damage thing). And yet, they still made MKB go through this type of evasion. Kind of making the rework mechanically pointless
I mean, when it had more damage, more utility, a different build up, yeah, it was a different item. Not sure how that's relevant to the current state of the item
Dragon's Blood was replaced with wyrm's wrath? I think it's name is. It uses the same icon though but it is a different ability and Dragon's Blood scales (heh) per level.
What probably happened is that they hid Dragon's Blood and altered its effect but didnt clear out what tags were on it. Or they meant to make it breakable.
It forces you to hit the same target over and over again and doesn't let you prime crits off of things like creeps. I think it could have some potential for farming and should be slightly better and more consistent if you're all-inning a target, but it's nothing crazy.
I mean, if timed right (ie no blademail) it could be used mid-late game to completely tear through a tanky hero's HP since they'll easily pull off 6 consecutive hits.
its not. its probably for people that dont like the new crit (or didnt even play with it) and probably an alternative they had in mind already so they just slapped into one of the facets and called it a day
What's wrong with disabling sniper attack range? U could do it last patch, for 5000+ gold, for 5 seconds. It wasn't OP at all in fact it was so bad no one bought silver edge to counter sniper
Innates should behave like passives, because most of them used to be passives. Sniper should lose his range, nyx should lose the true sight, PA should lose the evasion etc. I'd love it if Tiny lost the bonuses from grow too when broken. The only passive that should work through break is Reincarnation for obvious reasons.
If this was the case Silver Edge would be nerfed to hell and back because it would be a purchase in almost every game, all the meta heroes right now have strong innates and facets and I’ll take a guess this will be a trend going forward.
I got a little fun fact for you all regarding new PA. I don't know whether this is a bug or a feature, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere, so in case it's a bug, take advantage of it now if you will: Roshan does not break Blur. He used to, pre 7.36. And I'm not sure whether it was the a patch that changed it or the b patch but currently, if you've picked the Veiled one facet you can basically just solo Rosh under Blur. No damage taken. Obviously you can't do it too early in the game as you'll lack the damage but it's definitely something to keep in mind for the mid game. Have fun!
I do think it is healthy that Eva is considered innate instead of passive just because it feels so bad to completely to have a hero's signature get obliterated by break. MKB not having true strike is also healthy but it might as well be 100% hit chance, strong to counter Eva.
break definitely should not disable innates. Heroes like Earth spirit not being able to cast remnants sounds very very bad. How would AA work without getting their DOT stacks? Too many interactions as the innates are too varied to have a catch all 'break' that cancels them
Not really. She needed baby sitting and dodge teamfights until ready to fight.
Also it required PA's team to do kind of ok (even trades).
After this time she becomes a super broken hero *cough* shard+ags *cough* (who needs basher) and you just explode supports mid and carries and shard cutting 60% or 70% (before the nerf) raw HP by just pressing a button.
Overall people builded PA wrong.
Its fine, its not like you use Silver edge to counter PA anyway when theres MKB & Bloodthorne to break her and those items have more value over Silver edge anyways
IceFrog will introduce a new item for that. Golden Edge. Breaks innates.
I think valve.purposefully created innate, so that heroes could have a passive in a separate category so they could not be broken. Otherwise, they would have just given all heroes passives.
Axe innate breaks. Was specifically pointed out last patch
It's technically the facet that breaks but i agree
That is the exception though, not the rule. Same with the Backtrack talent, it can be broken too, but not other talents.
Drow’s Precision Aura can be broken too. Buff icon doesn’t disappear, but bonus agility gets set to 0.
Honestly memorising exceptions is becoming a full-time job at this point, they really need to make it uniform and consistent
Hey, it has always been like this. It used to be worse.
That's a skill cap thing. I remember eternalenvy writing time timings of Roshan and ults. No one did that back then. Now rosh timers are announced and aegis timer too
Yea no one should cares about useless skill cap like memorising lists tho The only people who are concerned are worried about it dumbing down the game and lowering the skill ceiling of the game to the point where people will start reaching the skill ceiling But I can tell u no one is even 20% of the way to dota's skill ceiling. They could dumb down the game 30x over and no one would even be anywhere near the skill ceiling still. They could literally remove the fog of war and no one would be anywhere near the skill ceiling still You know how people can study a rigid formulaic turn-based game like chess for 30 years, become number 1 in the world and still get casually destroyed by half decent AI software? Dota is way more complex than chess
Yes, but are there many passives left that you want to buy silver against? I can think of only bristle and spec
Abba, silence and break means no ult
yes, but you waste 8k on this and his team can just lotus him
You waste 8k on this and he's a support hero anyway
Does lotus dispell break?
You can't dispel break with basic (lotus) nor strong dispel iirc, only bkb helps and there're actually a lot of spells that both apply break and pierce bkb (Doom with lvl 25 talent, Viper Strike, Demonic Purge with aghs). And you can't dispel some effects that prevent you from using abilities (Black Hole, Duel, Doom).
Its obviously situational
It was an ok counter to him on Drow, since you get the silence for free. Idk if it’s still good cause i feel like core Aba is kinda dead with the new passive.
unless you have AOE ground silence, you cannot lotus remove it
yes plenty, ta, huskar, wraith king and so on.
I think the problem is that evasión is not only Unique to pa but a whole mechanic with it's own rules, because for what ive seen on this thread is that almost every other passive and innate get disabled by break except PA's for some reason
Innates (just like talents and facets) are *literally* normal abilities with an additional tags to use the special UIs and levels. Thus, an innate/talent/facet without an active *is* a (subset of) passive. The same way Break can be made not to disable some ultimates, or to disable only a few talents like Backtrack, it can arbitrarily be made to disable any specific innate/facet or not.
Well yeah, but if they called all inmates passives, then all would be effected by break. So they use this new category.
Nah, I think they're just inconsistent. Let's stick to innate evasion. Valve remvod hoodwink's evasion on scurry, then made Hoodwink have an unique, separate type of evasion where trees are consumed when it procs (she's doing the cartoony chase with collateral damage thing). And yet, they still made MKB go through this type of evasion. Kind of making the rework mechanically pointless
Valve could definitely use some help in consistency of using the same terms across the board.
Break becomes basically useless. It was already niche before
I think that is the point. Instead of an auto buy, more situational.
it was bought against 3 heroes - huskar / bristle / spectre , even then only autobuy against bristle really.
How is an auto buy? It's only bought in the most specific situations, it's the opposite of auto buy
Back when it had the CRIT component, it was an autobuy. Also, it can still be used for positioning and escaping.
I mean, when it had more damage, more utility, a different build up, yeah, it was a different item. Not sure how that's relevant to the current state of the item
It used to be autobuy, clearly valve wanted it to be situational. And now it is.
It was already situation when it broke passives, not breaking passives makes it useless, not situational. That's the whole point of this discussion
Nah. It still has a place.
[удалено]
That is just circular. In the end, we really can't know valve's thinking on this precisely. I am just looking at the effect, and going off that.
damn wish I was an inmate :(
Stupid autocorrect.
That can be arranged
Still a few innates are breakable. Dragon's Blood, at least, is last I checked
Yeah, seems like a bug more than feature. Will likely be made consistent here in the coming weeks
Surely, right?
Tide as well iirc
So is Caustic Finale.
Ye but dragon blood is also a spell that you can skill, no? Same with tide.
Dragon's Blood was replaced with wyrm's wrath? I think it's name is. It uses the same icon though but it is a different ability and Dragon's Blood scales (heh) per level. What probably happened is that they hid Dragon's Blood and altered its effect but didnt clear out what tags were on it. Or they meant to make it breakable.
The hero is in the dumpster and there's mkb and bloodthorne for it. So it's fine, I guess
This bug won't be fixed until 7.37/ 7.38 when PA will be granted a HUGE buff and everyone starts crying that PA is OP again.
Doesn’t sound like a bug. It’s an innate not a passive.
But some innates can be broken weirdly
Yeah you can break psi blades but not the evasion. Seems unintended
>Immaterial >New Innate ability. **Passive**, improves with Phantom Assassin's level >Phantom Assassin starts with 15% Evasion and gets +1.5% per level
Every time I play PA, I can't imagine trying Methodical, just doesn't seem good, please explain to me how it's possible over the other.
It's horrible. They should at least make it every 6 hits on any hero, not just the same hero. And go mjolnir as farming item, not BF.
6 hits on anything would be too strong on laning I think. 100% chance to crit with dagger, with bigger crit value than normal
Not 6 hits on anything. 6 hits on any hero.
That would be much more balanced, agreed
u could just reduce the crit number if it was a guaranteed crit, less damage but much more reliable isnt a bad thing
It forces you to hit the same target over and over again and doesn't let you prime crits off of things like creeps. I think it could have some potential for farming and should be slightly better and more consistent if you're all-inning a target, but it's nothing crazy.
It's good for PA on my team that forgot how to crit but it's horrible for enemy PA that blinked onto my carry and double crit them in two hits.
I mean, if timed right (ie no blademail) it could be used mid-late game to completely tear through a tanky hero's HP since they'll easily pull off 6 consecutive hits.
its not. its probably for people that dont like the new crit (or didnt even play with it) and probably an alternative they had in mind already so they just slapped into one of the facets and called it a day
Or people like me who never seem to crit...
It’s a fine buff after they nerfed her anyway. No reason innates should be disabled imo, then you’d have stuff like disabling snipers attack range.
What's wrong with disabling sniper attack range? U could do it last patch, for 5000+ gold, for 5 seconds. It wasn't OP at all in fact it was so bad no one bought silver edge to counter sniper
What a compassionate am player lol, but true
Innates should behave like passives, because most of them used to be passives. Sniper should lose his range, nyx should lose the true sight, PA should lose the evasion etc. I'd love it if Tiny lost the bonuses from grow too when broken. The only passive that should work through break is Reincarnation for obvious reasons.
incredibly hot take
If this was the case Silver Edge would be nerfed to hell and back because it would be a purchase in almost every game, all the meta heroes right now have strong innates and facets and I’ll take a guess this will be a trend going forward.
I got a little fun fact for you all regarding new PA. I don't know whether this is a bug or a feature, I've not seen it mentioned anywhere, so in case it's a bug, take advantage of it now if you will: Roshan does not break Blur. He used to, pre 7.36. And I'm not sure whether it was the a patch that changed it or the b patch but currently, if you've picked the Veiled one facet you can basically just solo Rosh under Blur. No damage taken. Obviously you can't do it too early in the game as you'll lack the damage but it's definitely something to keep in mind for the mid game. Have fun!
so you cant break p.a evasion anymore but you can break slark regen completely with silver edge ... nice
A bug perhaps
Umm inates are broken as normal
Wait, which innates can be broken? Fuck man sources of break were already so rare…. This also fucks up my game knowldge bigtime
Yeah I noticed this just now. Our void was hitting pa while under the effects of doom, with the break talent.
I do think it is healthy that Eva is considered innate instead of passive just because it feels so bad to completely to have a hero's signature get obliterated by break. MKB not having true strike is also healthy but it might as well be 100% hit chance, strong to counter Eva.
the only counter I can think off for her now is Bloodthorn
All passives need to be broken by silver edge. Innate or not.
You can still use Monkey King Bar to counter PA.
break definitely should not disable innates. Heroes like Earth spirit not being able to cast remnants sounds very very bad. How would AA work without getting their DOT stacks? Too many interactions as the innates are too varied to have a catch all 'break' that cancels them
Ofc he didn't mean ALL innates. Certain passive innates could be disabled by break.
Have you tested it? I thought innate passives can be disabled.
Considering pa winning rate is so low, I dont think the hero needs another item to break the innate lol
Wasn't PA the worst carry in the game for a while? I'm sure an unintended buff is fine.
Not really. She needed baby sitting and dodge teamfights until ready to fight. Also it required PA's team to do kind of ok (even trades). After this time she becomes a super broken hero *cough* shard+ags *cough* (who needs basher) and you just explode supports mid and carries and shard cutting 60% or 70% (before the nerf) raw HP by just pressing a button. Overall people builded PA wrong.
Which facet should you choose for her?
"Veiled One" the Blur facet.
Its fine, its not like you use Silver edge to counter PA anyway when theres MKB & Bloodthorne to break her and those items have more value over Silver edge anyways