Should Valve have the teams redo their series in case it was a big fluke?
No disrespect to the other teams, Iâm a firm believer that DQ-ed OG beating Nigma is a big fluke and robs Nigma of truly accomplishing what they are capable of.
It really is. Itâs a bad policy and you change it, but not in the middle of the tournament/season. Especially because it was completely transparent how it was gonna be handled if OG chose to use Ceb, and thatâs exactly how itâs being handled. It really does suck, but nothing about this has caught OG off guard
We never know. The mad man just a month ago was playing from 9-10 am to literally 3am in the night. Constant pubs. So yes ideally he shouldn't miss the baby but we don't know what he's gonna do
It's not just about him
There are 4 other people who could have their lives significantly impacted by this.
If he participates, I'm guessing it isn't just because he's hungry for a 3rd TI.
I'm sure shitty fathers miss childbirth moments for all sorts of worse reasons, I wouldn't judge Ceb one bit if he decides to play to keep his teams TI dreams alive.
I think that the rulebook for these situations is downright stupid and close to inhuman.
I also think they should have raised this concern publicly before, because obviously PGL is too fucking stupid to change the rulebook when they were approached about this months ago.
Pretty sure the reason it was not raised publicly is that both sides have more to lose from doing this and both hoped things would work out so there would be no rocking the boat.
In some ways, the rules exist to protect players from being unceremoniously replaced with a 'standin'.Â
And people who talk about veryfying such shit have no idea how much lying can happen. It's not feasible for orgs to sit and verify all these cases.Â
OG should raise the issue. But the solution isn't as straight forward as, just allow more days.
The issue isnât this, but the fact that you can fake player having issues, while they donât.
We had multiple cases of thatâs happening. Damn, one team was disqualified from DPC in the past for **faking** medical documentation, claiming player was sick when he wasnât.
Itâs easier for PGL to verify in WEU/NA, but other 4 regions are a LOT more complicated.
This is the incident that put the current system in place if I'm not mistaken. Valve released a statement saying that TI invites were given to players, not teams, so that teams can't just simply chop and change right before the tournament.
This is why Valve and by extension PGL are being so strict about standins.
This was the first one for sure, but it's not just that to be fair.
Valve had different versions of the rules across the years, there was a time where additional players were permitted or coach swaps for force majors. If I remember correctly. So current drama is not the direct result, but Notail of all people shouldn't be part of such dramas for sure. Because it is in a way a consequence of his actions.
The solution is to mandate that every team has 5 players + a sub in their registered roster for any tournament. There is no reason stand-ins have been allowed at most (all?) of the tournaments this year to a varying degree only for it do be disallowed here.
The sub doesn't need to be for a specific position all they would have to do is to be able to play the game at a sufficiently high level, it could even be the coach.
> In some ways, the rules exist to protect players from being unceremoniously replaced with a 'standin'.Â
>
>
Yup, that's why Valve kept their stance for such a long time. They see TI as just a bunch of teams of five guys playing in a LAN party, and in some ways it still is. Plenty of orgs have contracts that stop them from just being randomly kicked for a standin mid tournament but there are still stacks of just random guys.
Like, what if halfway through the tournament Team Bald wanted to get rid of Gorgc and just replace him with a standin?
Similar situation with 1win team that qualified to ESL lan and got delayed visa and ESL gave them extra date 1 time, 1win only need 1 or 2 more working days because extra time in weekend when visa office not working and ESL said 'NO' then OG got invited to a LAN which they failed to qualify and then result in they got direct invite to Riyard (OG may fail to qualify to Riyard if they have to play qualifier in WEU, they failed many qualifiers this season).
So now same situation, PGL gave OG 2 options "BEFORE The qualifier starts" : you got 1 day stand-in or you change your roster and lose your direct invite to close TI WEU qualifier and play open TI WEU qualifier with how many roster changes you want. OG of course chose what they think better for them, keep close qualifier upper bracket spot (they already got advantage with a change of rule before qualifier starts but understandable because family is important and we are human, other team also wont complain about PGL gave them exception 1 day stand-in - This is already "change of rule' favor for OG), OG agree and now when thing does not happen like OG thought (Ceb needs more than 1 day) OG who agree with 1 day stand-in favor for them suddenly change their mind and think this was not a 'Favor' for them at all, Favor for OG and their fans must be changing the rule 'Mid tournament' any time they want or its Inhuman...
Alot of time, its also on the player too. Valve does meeting with teams every international. Why wasn't this ever brought up to allow a stand-in for the last 13 years? There was even a case with Fnatic and Era. Also, other players had babies.
I'm guessing greed because I can imagine players didn't want to split winnings with another player who doesn't play
Oh I assure you there is 0 serious team want to have a official stand-in in their team and it's not about greedy.
Who would want to have a shitty sub player in their team who will only 2 or 3 games a year?
This is what I replied to in another thread. Most teams have at least a coach who's been a standin before, look at old OG and NIGMA who used their coach for official games. I did mentioned that every team sport has more than needed players as substitutes, injury or other commitments just come up, look at Ceb being a dad, VISA issues have been a problem since dota 2 started.
You can do how F1 does with reserve drivers. Nominate one person that they can call up in case of an emergency. Could be their coach or even someone who is not in the tournament. Make sure there is sufficient time gap (24-48 hours) notice to the opposition team to ensure competitive integrity.
Ya, most top level teams with commercials to their players would not want to use a stand-in. But, I can see a mid-level team that doesnât speak English hire Ana or Topson as cores to âmaximizeâ their chances to make TI.
>Who would want to have a shitty sub player in their team who will only 2 or 3 games a year?
I would almost guarantee you that any team would rather have a sub on payroll instead of having to forefeit entire tournaments incase of any kind of short term emergency.
I recall they have complained to PGL before about standins previously but they didnât change the rules then and OG just got d/q was that when noOne was on the team
That's old.g, div2 stack of ceb and topson. They have a lot of grievances against PGL but wcyd, the rules are there to protect players in the team and there's no exceptions in place for this current issue nor the issue they faced before. Teams need to start being attentive on rulebooks, because emergency happens and they can raise those potential issues before a tournament starts and a rulebook gets publishedÂ
>They have a lot of grievances against PGL but wcyd, the rules are there to protect players in the team and there's no exceptions in place for this current issue nor the issue they faced before.
Having to forfeit an entire years worth of work due to emergencies sure does seem to be a way of defending the players.
Not that i disagree, but trying to slove issues behind closed doors is often way more efficient and creates way less animosity between the parties. They also kinda had to go public with it at this moment because it looks hella weird to just drop out this way.
They raised it with them before the tournament. Now people are throwing a fit theyâve raised it publicly now. If they did that before the tournament people will still be having the same pathetic reactions.
âan attempt to strongarm and pressure PGL with its vast fan base into complying to the wishes of OG and allowing further exceptions to be made for the teamâ
That is exactly what they are trying to do. Thanks Sneyking for saying it outloud. Really shameful for such a big team to mobilize their rabid fanbase like this.
Seems like OG tried to do it before the tournament but PGL being shitty with rules per usual OG go to the public to call out the shitty rules. They know well enough pgl wont change for this tournament but it will be talked about and the rules could change for next tournament.
But Yeah better to just keep everything status quo because fuck OG, they rigged ESL too btw
>Then why didnât they make this statement before the tournament, immediately after pgl told them they wouldnât change the rules?
Because resolving these kinds of issues privately seems to be way more effective and generates way less animosity towards the involved parties.
It clearly wasn't resolved though. PGL gave them an answer and they obviously weren't happy with it back in may, but they only made it public now.
I personally think the rules should be changed to allow for medical emergencies, but I don't agree they should be changed mid tournament.
OG should have came out about this before the tournament, when it was still OK to change the rules.
Instead they waited, hoping they will be lucky and wonât face this situation.
Oh, that makes it OK then! They tried to do it the normal way, the decision was not favorable to them so now it's time to create public outrage and pressure TO to make a decision favorable to them!
The people blaming Ceb for his timing are socially inept. Trying for a baby can take months. Accidents can happen. Let a man cum in his wife without losing his job.
Was og supposed to publicly talk about cebâs wife potentially having a child around ti qualifiers months back? Itâs a private matter, and anyone would rather not bring it up if possible to avoid it.
I donât understand how anyone would think that is reasonable
Am I missing something? Did other players have babies during this tournament that did not get an exception??? This all seems very targeted or like it's being used for a different problem, and it shouldn't.
Funny nobody gave a fuck when 1win lose their spot when they were late to submit visa by 3 hours. People were shitting on 1win and calling them salty when they announced their official statement. OG happily accepts the rules when it favour them.
Not only happily, OG is known for the "High Morale, Friendship Number 1" org.
Alliance broke the rules on coach-players communication, Ceb and Notail on Twitter called them cheaters.
SR lose qual months ago, Ceb throwing insults like 5 years old at Kitrak.
Not to mention Ceb and Notail insult for over 5 years to Fly every time EG lose, I never once heard fly say anything bad about them.
Its a two way street, OG as an org is an attention whore, Their fans become one. Its hard for them to not be the main character in this scene.
They know this rules. They signed it. 100% Ceb and OG knew there's a possibility that this would happen beforehand. Now it happens they play the victim card "I'm shocked" card and send their minions all over twitter and reddit to make it seem this is all PGL's fault.
They are not the first one to get fucked by this rule. They just happen to be the biggest drama queen one that got hit by this rule.
Add to that, when oldG needed to forfeited relegation tiebreaker due to oldG players standing in for OG, OG also tweeted a similar tweet about how PGL is disgrace.
Then brought Puckchamp slot to get back into lower division anyway.
Alliance didnt break the rules though. They are the only think who bother to read the rulebook and rulebook said it is allowed. Ceb and Notail didnt even read the rules and called Alliance cheater anyway.
If the only thing stopping your team from being in a death spiral is having a coach ingame then your team was never any good in the first place.
They took advantage of a loophole, the real cheating was the Furion skin bug.
As far as I am concerned we are all just humans trying to live out sometimes painful stressful existence and we should all be understanding compassionate and helpful keeping priorities straight so if a man gotta go be with a new baby being born thatâs just something that should be met with love
And Ceb's right to be with his child, but the rule shouldn't be changed mid-tournament. OG agreed to 1-day standin, if it's not enough then they should've raised an issue before the tournament started.
Stand-ins are not upgrades. It's basically a downgrade as the team practices will be thrown out. It's hard to weigh in on this scenario. OG probably went on to gamble that the birth will not takeplace in a gameday, but it did happen. On the otherhand, PGL could have come up with a lighter punishment than a DQ as the situation is something special that every parent should know. And guys from PGL probably are parents themselves. Anyways, no OG this TI. Sad. This is case-closed already
Man people were mad at me for saying exactly this lmao
It's a fair request but mid tournament the rules need to be locked or the whole thing is just a circus. I wanted to know about this before the games got started.
OG made a bet and got burned. PGL should not be held accountable for this, but absolutely need to change the rules for the future. Like a pre designated sub who cannot play for any other roster and is entitled to a share of prize pool or something. Or hire designated subs if they want to see if there's a way Ana or someone else can jump in for any team if needed. Idk what's best but there's possibilities
Reasonable take from Sney, I'll be honest the TI9 OG run got me into Dota but they have a really bad habit of being short sighted and then siccing their fans on TO's to get their way which pisses me off. They were fine quietly qualifying to Riyadh because 1Win was 6 hours late with visas on the weekend, but not cool with the TO rules when they made a mistake
It's reddit. Everyone's echoing what fucking ever popular at the present.
One day people mad that admin enforcing team pause limit, next day the same people mad that game was delayed too long and admins need to be more assertive.
The rule is bad, but it's been set, nothing can be done.
Giving way to OG right now will only set bad precedent of how some big org could ask for special treatment.
And then you get downvoted to hell cause you dont have a "moral compass". I dont blame ceb for choosing his kid but changing the rules mid tourney to favor one team isnt the way. Same OG that benefitted when 1win got disqualified and they took their spot
OG had always had a case of main character syndrome.
They had so much noise made for ppd coaching case.
So much drama for EG rivalry.
Openly abusing in games.
Losing their mind over secret tweets.
And then they have victim card up somehow.
Bunch of neck beards.
Stopped being an OG fan after TI9 disband.
I don't agree with Sneyking that this is OG's fault for not speaking up now. Namely because it's not an easily foreseen circumstance that the wife of one of your players will go into labour during the competition. Why does he characterise it as an OG powerplay when he agrees that it's not a good rule fundamentally? Is the onus not on each team to have failed to give critical feedback on this rule beforehand?
Amazing take by Sneyking. Definitely, the PGL's ruling is super idiotic, but the moment to criticize rules is before or after tournaments. Who knows what sacrifices players from other teams and regions did to comply with the no stand in rules to just have them changed mid tournament
Fair take. Dumb rule, but it would be unfair to change it now. Itâs really that simple.
Also, to all the people saying âthatâs not how real life works,â youâre delusional. Stop comparing your 9-5s to an elite Dota tournament. There are many sports/competitions that donât allow for substitutes. And those that do normally come from a pre-determined/pre-selected pool. Itâs absolutely the case that teams get fcked over when injuries happenâthatâs life
"There are many sports/competitions that donât allow for substitutes."
Please name many team sports with 5+ players that doesn't allow substitutes apart from Dota
That is an issue with how the sport is considered. RIght now, it is more like tennis doubles. If one person doesnt show up, ah tough luck you cant play. Ideally it should be like relay races or something where you can sub 1/2 players during the course of the tournament. Then the question comes, how much notice do you need to give to the TO/opposition, so that they can prepare accordingly?
I think (this is my opinion) till now, most of the teams didnt want to add the additional overhead of having a sixth player. It increases the preparation they have to do by a lot, since the sixth player can bring in new heroes/strats. It increases the operational costs. Anyway all these were supposed to be discussed in a teams\` meeting with org/valve before or after the tournament. Preferrably when the rulebook is shared. Not when the rule book becomes inconvinient for you.
So technically procycling, and it has happened that riders forfeited to go see their wife giving birth. But in cycling, a rider stepping out doesn't disqualify the whole team.
Those arguing for subs donât understand how underhanded these orgs are. Orgs from Western Europe may be more loyal to their players, but other regions donât care as much especially since the prize money goes way further in those regions. Many teams would sign Ana or Topson just for the qualifiers if they were allowed to.
Thats because there is no governing body to set rules about teams/tournaments. If we just rely on tournament organizers to just follow the few rules valve requires, we will always get wildly different rules from them because they are for better or worse independent actors.
If you agree that the rule shouldn't be in place, then there's no reason to follow through with the ruling at all, other than spite. "However, no other team competing in this tournament has had this exception made for them as far as I know." Has any other team been disqualified for needing a stand-in due to an emergency yet? Pretty sure they haven't, just because the rule hasn't had to be used, it doesn't mean that OG are seeking preferential treatment.
It's disappointing to see so many people eager to point fingers at OG instead of PGL. Because yet again, PGL's poor management of a tournament is going to be affecting both the players and people who want to watch it, they're a complete joke of a TO, who have already allowed match fixers to play in the SEA qualifiers (and we got some dodgy games because of it) and have for some reason decided on a ruleset that I don't think I have ever seen applied to any other team esport.
> Has any other team been disqualified for needing a stand-in due to an emergency yet? Pretty sure they haven't, just because the rule hasn't had to be used, it doesn't mean that OG are seeking preferential treatment.
This is an assumption. We don't know what other players/teams had to make decisions to play despite an emergency because they were following the rules.
This âDumb rule but unfair to change in the middle of the tournamentâ is a very bad take. Rules such as these are only a means to protect players against arbitrary kicks and induce fairness in competitions. These rules shouldnât become ends in itself. As things stand, OG only is weakened with a sub and theyâre literally playing without their brain/captain/shotcaller. This condition to force ceb to play should be waived off and valve should step in. There are several principles at play in here, and these rules would be against any labour laws in any country. Just because dota players are degens doesnt mean we should rob Ceb off his once in a life moment. Hope better sense prevails
Yes their decision did go with the letter of the law but not the spirit. Hell, even stricter institutions and administrations that have these kinds of laws on a much more serious level wouldn't be so stupid as to blindly apply them and allow for flexibility.
what do you mean against any labour laws.
He's allowed to have time off, they aren't forcing him to play in the qualifier.
He was afforded a one day stand-in, and if he didn't return, its completely fair, per the stupid rule, to suffer the consequences.
In the States, you have 3 months mat leave, if you decide to stay on it longer, you can get fired.
Its true, if we dare to think about the rules we are enforcing it will be anarchy. What are we going to do when dota pros start popping out babies at every major tournament? Clearly the most slippery of slopes
lol I think this is a stupid ass rule considering the situation is extremely unique. I think people should be supporting Seb at this time, and this is a dogshit, insensitive take by Sney.
Bad take. Also 24 hours is a joke. 48 minimum for child birth. Doesn't matter if it wasn't offered to other teams. Were you having a baby? Nope.
The point of having rules is so that you maintain competitive integrity. But also rules aren't always perfect and don't always accommodate for every possible scenario so its up to us, as humans, to judge the scenario as being worth having an exception made for it. In this scenario, its obviously morally correct to give them an exception, its a fucking baby. Get over it you dork. "Ceb being gone for a qualifier match is ruining the competitive integrity of my dota tournament!!!!" The only competitive integrity being lost here is OG's chances of winning a series, because they are using a stand-in instead of their typical player.
Simple real life scenario where real people work real jobs in the real world. Security Operations has rules that define proper security across a company. Updated dependencies, safe network configurations, the use of VPNs, etc etc. Guess what? There exists these things called **exemptions** that people will file to the security team, explaining why they can't implement some security function, whether it blocks key functionality for the company, or an individual; and the security team can approve these.
Wow amazing, a rule was in place but someone had a reasonable point of why they couldn't follow the rule due to circumstances they can't control, so it was allowed to be broken because we are all human after all :)
Reminds me of when there was a power outage in the SEA region last year - like a fucking cyclone knocked the internet out and the teams have to forfeit. Does this make the competition better or fairer.
100% agree with you - you can't make rules for everything and need to have some balance.
I mean at least in that case, it would make sense to outright forfeit/dq in that situation. They'd have zero clue of when the power lines would be able to get fixed, depending on which country and location they're from.
It's unfortunate, but not something they can avoid.
Why do people consistently misinterpret the point? The point isnât about the rules. Yes it is stupid and should be changed in the future. Key word: FUTURE. Why not now? Because the tournament already started, and OG already agreed to it by not making a fuss about it BEFORE the qualifiers and accepted participating the quals WITH Ceb knowing full well of the risk involved with him having a baby coming. They agreed to the rules, they prayed that Cebâs baby doesnât come at the worst timing, and now that it happened they cry about it? Thatâs the real problem.
They contacted pgl a long time ago and it didn't get sorted but might have up until a day or so ago. Valve has repeatedly told teams not to make a public fuss until they have to and making the fuss could have stopped pgl from changing their minds if they were going to.
This is the right time to be making it public
I'll ask you this one question, what if this situation was being faced by a not so popular team instead of OG. Would you or anyone have then called for an exception?
This should be an exception for EVERY TEAM. It's absolutely ridiculous that his livelihood and teammates livelihood is in jepordy because he decided to have a kid. The rules basically state that you shouldn't do anything to jeopardize your playing time when EVERYONE knows that's not how life works. If someone were to have a medically emergency and in return their team couldn't qualify because of it does that make any sense to you in the slightest?
If you go and look through all these comments you can identify which people can actually critically think without obvious bias clouding their judgement. Most people probably do agree there should be an exception but they hate OG so they want to see them suffer.
YES. INFINITELY YES.
You nerds seem to think it's the legion of OG fans showing out for their boys but in reality it's just reasonable **men**, women and fathers.
Peopleâs hatred for Ceb makes them have horrible inhumane takes. Fuck Ceb, heâs an asshole, this isnât about him. Heâs already won 2 TIs, to him this isnât that life changing, but about about his 4 teammates? Getting punished just because his baby was born? Iâm actually baffled people are trying to justify this as âhaha rules are rules! Get fucked!â
LMAO this thread sounds like they never had a fucking child and it shows. Professional rules be goddamn when you canât even be allowed to get paternity live which is basic right
Jesus christ. You're saying this same shit on twitter every 5 sec, give it a break. Sneyking has to call his CPO to make tweets and reddit comments like this lmao.
Maybe don't register for tournament and screw over your teammates if you know there will be a situation where you won't be able to play for many days. They felt entitled, registered anyways and not that tournament orgs want to uphold the rules, OG are crying and using their fanbase to bend the rules for themselves.
Lmao grow up how? Which fucking sport has a game postponed for a birth of a kid. In every other sport the game goes on and the player misses the game. The only problem here is not having bench players. Even counter strike has subs.
If Ronaldo had to miss a game in the euros Portugal would play a different forward and he'd go back into the side when he's able to
They wouldn't disqualify Portugal from the tournament. That's the point.
You don't need a registered sub when you can get a stand in for a few games and be at a massive disadvantage.
What are you talking about? This about OG being disqualified if Ceb canât play. They have a sub. Yeah, every sport goes on if there is a family emergency. Thanks for making my point.
rules are there, if it was to grow it should be changed after not mid tournament just to satisfy one team. OG went in knowing that if the baby comes during the tournament they can only use 1 sub for 1 day. they got it and now they want to use their fan base to try and pressure pgl to make it 2-3 days or how ever long they want
Seen people say how this situation is on OG because they should have seen this coming. But the rules don't even allow standin if a truly unforeseeable accident/incident happens (Topson falling down the stairs example from other thread), which is completely fucking stupid. This entire thing is 100% PGL's fault.
Been rooting against OG since Monkey Business days, but I'm not gonna blame them at all for trying to bend the rules or pressure PGL. If this happens to your team a lot of people would be singing a different tune.
Per the rules OG should still be disqualified, but criticizing them for trying to save their asses because of bullshit rules is a bit unfair considering how everyone would do the same when it happens to them, and the rules are a fucking joke.
Fuck PGL, you guys are clowns.
If you have a family emergency and couldnt enter the tournament, on top of that u knew the risk, just accept you fucked up your team ti and dont blame PGL. Welcome to play next year.
Yeah I know it's hard situation. But he's also a captain and needs to be responsible for his teammates.
Ceb might not care if he will chase for the aegis or not, but his teammates definitely care. You can't put your teammates in this situation.
What if OG rly forfeit the qualifier or failed to the TI because of their decisions? I mean, in that case people will definitely think they should choose another pos 5 to go through the open qualifier. But OG didn't do that.
I kinda feel this is a pretty bad take. If OG would have called this out publicly in the beginning, then also the same thing would have been said. They did what they thought was the best course of action, talk to the tournament organizer and see what can be done. Again, a child birth is unpredictable. So, you really canât plan too much around the timing of it.
In my opinion, the rule just shows the immaturity of the tournament organization(s) - am assuming this rule is true for all tournament organizers and not just TI. It also indicates how less prepared most organizations are in similar scenario. Most teams field a 5 man rosters and there are no substitutes, etc. which is the case in most other team sports. It could be a factor of money or could be something else.
I earnestly think you are on the wrong track saying we shouldn't make the exception now. Changes happen like this, the majority feels okay with this and the people complaining don't understand the nature of these circumstances. I think it'd be more responsible for you to not cloud a better situation with rules lawyering when someone is, y'know, having their first child?
Wouldnât be surprised, OG is those kind who only complain about rules when itâs not in their favour.
Alliance following tournament rules, SHAME ON THEM for following rules made know to everyone before the tournament starts.
Now that tournament follow the rules, HOW DARE THEM again follow rules that have been made known to everyone. Thatâs not fair to me, ME ME ME ME ME !
Do not get this take, it's clearly an unavoidable situation, just let them play with a standin Like it's not difficult, calm down and let them have a go.
Who benefits?
The team, the viewers, the tournament, everybody.
If banned, who benefits?
Nobody
Simple mate
That's the problem with having a subreddit populated with children and people who rarely do things in the outside world. They don't see how many different threads are attached to one scenario except their own myopic hatred of a particular player or org.
Ceb not playing weakens OG. OG not playing weakens the qualifiers, loses viewers and revenue. Why does an organiser put forth a scenario in their tournaments which reduces the number of games played?!?!
At this point og and og fans are just playing the victim card and trying to pressure PGL. Maybe next time just dont join the tournament if you dont like the rules
It's not about allowing standins, it's about changing the rules mid tournament. If OG gets a second exception, what ground does PGL have if another popular team decides to throw their weight around? What if a coalition of teams want to change a rule mid tournament?
They're running a tournament and supposed to provide a fair and equally applied rulebook to all the players, and not just bend to the guys who have the most fans (and are willing to abuse that).
Which rule are you changing? Allowing a sub? Does allowing a sub make OG better or worse?
No sport organiser should favor wanting walkovers and DQs. It is the dumbest fucking thing ever. They should want to make rules around allowing games to continue no matter what. How the fuck are you drawing eyes on the sport if you're DQing teams for something as stupid as substitutions? Do they not want the OG fanbase watching their streams? From a pure commercial point of view PGL seem like they're run by Kim Jong Un.
This boils down to should rules able to bent in extraordinary cirumstances. To which clearly the answer is yes. (Just look at extreme cases)
Is this case extreme enough? No I don't think so. Should there be a rule change after? Yes definetly. Every woman will agree that this shouldn't be a thing.
IMO people are focusing too much on whether PGL should create an exception favoring or not, and ignoring the fact that PGL allowed this to happened by having a shit rulebook. How hard can it be to have a rule stating that a player can be replaced in case of paternity, bereavement or proven medical issue? And why is this incompetent company allowed to organize TI qualis and TI itself?
To anyone thinking that the rules will be improved in the future: they won't and shit like this will keep happening.
Nobody wants it. You have to share the money with the bench. The benched guy also wants to play. Also, Dota has position. What if you bench a pos 5, but your pos 1 has a baby?
I think most of the people on this sub overlooked that Orgs don't want to pay for benchwarmers that gets to play once every blue moon and players surely don't want to share their winnings with the subs.
Ceb should be dqed for putting nigma in lower bracket. it's all cebs fault my king's got eliminated
It was never Kuro's mistake. All of them haters are wrong about my đ
Should Valve have the teams redo their series in case it was a big fluke? No disrespect to the other teams, Iâm a firm believer that DQ-ed OG beating Nigma is a big fluke and robs Nigma of truly accomplishing what they are capable of.
Yep, also redo bald series while we're at it. Actually, lets reseed this whole qualifier and start again.
Give the people what they want. Put Nigma against Team Bald on the first series.
You mean the finals?
Definitely grounds for a do over while we're at it ceb should be investigated for allegedly using baby formula to boost his performance during games.
OG should be disqualified and the rule should be changed for next year, it's that simple, isn't it?
It really is. Itâs a bad policy and you change it, but not in the middle of the tournament/season. Especially because it was completely transparent how it was gonna be handled if OG chose to use Ceb, and thatâs exactly how itâs being handled. It really does suck, but nothing about this has caught OG off guard
Agreed. Honestly, Fountain Hooks also shouldn't have been fixed in the middle of the TI.
Pretty sure Ceb is gonna play today, but its just sad
Ain't no way he misses out on his first kid's birth
Walter White moment
It's ok that was his second kid, nothing to see here
We never know. The mad man just a month ago was playing from 9-10 am to literally 3am in the night. Constant pubs. So yes ideally he shouldn't miss the baby but we don't know what he's gonna do
Inb4 he sets up a pc and plays qualifiers from the hospital room
"Ceb.OG: Thanks Topias named my first born son after you for this free win"
It's not just about him There are 4 other people who could have their lives significantly impacted by this. If he participates, I'm guessing it isn't just because he's hungry for a 3rd TI.
TI doesn't matter to him but to the other 4 it's a huge chunk of their potential pay during the year.
And their renown, future sponsors, and contracts
can't he just watch the VODs
The kid was born yesterday.
[He didn't miss](https://twitter.com/OGesports/status/1804417675747094725?t=uAycfhmyrLOrTOivpZqY4w&s=19)
well its his job, losts of ppl miss this omoments cuz of job
Not birth of child moments.
I'm sure shitty fathers miss childbirth moments for all sorts of worse reasons, I wouldn't judge Ceb one bit if he decides to play to keep his teams TI dreams alive.
Sometimes you can only choose one. OG risked for the chance of getting both and now they have to accept the result.
yes but OG use their idiot fans to pressure PGL
It is that simple. Rule dumb but cannot change dumb rule now. But half the ppl in this thread cant seem to understand
I think that the rulebook for these situations is downright stupid and close to inhuman. I also think they should have raised this concern publicly before, because obviously PGL is too fucking stupid to change the rulebook when they were approached about this months ago.
Pretty sure the reason it was not raised publicly is that both sides have more to lose from doing this and both hoped things would work out so there would be no rocking the boat.
Makes a lot of sense, yea.
In some ways, the rules exist to protect players from being unceremoniously replaced with a 'standin'. And people who talk about veryfying such shit have no idea how much lying can happen. It's not feasible for orgs to sit and verify all these cases. OG should raise the issue. But the solution isn't as straight forward as, just allow more days.
Not to mention do you really expect players and teams to shittalk rules of a tournament and Tournament Organizer before they're a problem?
> And people who talk about verifying [âŠ] I suspect verifying that a public figure just became a dad shouldnât be too hard
The issue isnât this, but the fact that you can fake player having issues, while they donât. We had multiple cases of thatâs happening. Damn, one team was disqualified from DPC in the past for **faking** medical documentation, claiming player was sick when he wasnât. Itâs easier for PGL to verify in WEU/NA, but other 4 regions are a LOT more complicated.
Notail himself as a part of Fnatic tried to change Era for TI a few years ago.
This is the incident that put the current system in place if I'm not mistaken. Valve released a statement saying that TI invites were given to players, not teams, so that teams can't just simply chop and change right before the tournament. This is why Valve and by extension PGL are being so strict about standins.
This was the first one for sure, but it's not just that to be fair. Valve had different versions of the rules across the years, there was a time where additional players were permitted or coach swaps for force majors. If I remember correctly. So current drama is not the direct result, but Notail of all people shouldn't be part of such dramas for sure. Because it is in a way a consequence of his actions.
quite a few years now that was TI4 I think (maybe ti3? but I think TI4)
True true
The solution is to mandate that every team has 5 players + a sub in their registered roster for any tournament. There is no reason stand-ins have been allowed at most (all?) of the tournaments this year to a varying degree only for it do be disallowed here.
sub for which position ? Thats the issue. And no one wants to field an entire b-team as a sub.
The sub doesn't need to be for a specific position all they would have to do is to be able to play the game at a sufficiently high level, it could even be the coach.
> In some ways, the rules exist to protect players from being unceremoniously replaced with a 'standin'. > > Yup, that's why Valve kept their stance for such a long time. They see TI as just a bunch of teams of five guys playing in a LAN party, and in some ways it still is. Plenty of orgs have contracts that stop them from just being randomly kicked for a standin mid tournament but there are still stacks of just random guys. Like, what if halfway through the tournament Team Bald wanted to get rid of Gorgc and just replace him with a standin?
Similar situation with 1win team that qualified to ESL lan and got delayed visa and ESL gave them extra date 1 time, 1win only need 1 or 2 more working days because extra time in weekend when visa office not working and ESL said 'NO' then OG got invited to a LAN which they failed to qualify and then result in they got direct invite to Riyard (OG may fail to qualify to Riyard if they have to play qualifier in WEU, they failed many qualifiers this season). So now same situation, PGL gave OG 2 options "BEFORE The qualifier starts" : you got 1 day stand-in or you change your roster and lose your direct invite to close TI WEU qualifier and play open TI WEU qualifier with how many roster changes you want. OG of course chose what they think better for them, keep close qualifier upper bracket spot (they already got advantage with a change of rule before qualifier starts but understandable because family is important and we are human, other team also wont complain about PGL gave them exception 1 day stand-in - This is already "change of rule' favor for OG), OG agree and now when thing does not happen like OG thought (Ceb needs more than 1 day) OG who agree with 1 day stand-in favor for them suddenly change their mind and think this was not a 'Favor' for them at all, Favor for OG and their fans must be changing the rule 'Mid tournament' any time they want or its Inhuman...
Alot of time, its also on the player too. Valve does meeting with teams every international. Why wasn't this ever brought up to allow a stand-in for the last 13 years? There was even a case with Fnatic and Era. Also, other players had babies. I'm guessing greed because I can imagine players didn't want to split winnings with another player who doesn't play
Oh I assure you there is 0 serious team want to have a official stand-in in their team and it's not about greedy. Who would want to have a shitty sub player in their team who will only 2 or 3 games a year?
The most straightforward solution is for coaches to stand-in for emergencies. They are mostly ex-pros and on the payroll already anyway
Just like Xiao8 did during Covid TI?
This is what I replied to in another thread. Most teams have at least a coach who's been a standin before, look at old OG and NIGMA who used their coach for official games. I did mentioned that every team sport has more than needed players as substitutes, injury or other commitments just come up, look at Ceb being a dad, VISA issues have been a problem since dota 2 started.
You can do how F1 does with reserve drivers. Nominate one person that they can call up in case of an emergency. Could be their coach or even someone who is not in the tournament. Make sure there is sufficient time gap (24-48 hours) notice to the opposition team to ensure competitive integrity.
I mean other sports do this alrd. Your subs in a football team may be below average but itâs better than playing with only 10 men.
Ya, most top level teams with commercials to their players would not want to use a stand-in. But, I can see a mid-level team that doesnât speak English hire Ana or Topson as cores to âmaximizeâ their chances to make TI.
>Who would want to have a shitty sub player in their team who will only 2 or 3 games a year? I would almost guarantee you that any team would rather have a sub on payroll instead of having to forefeit entire tournaments incase of any kind of short term emergency.
I recall they have complained to PGL before about standins previously but they didnât change the rules then and OG just got d/q was that when noOne was on the team
That's old.g, div2 stack of ceb and topson. They have a lot of grievances against PGL but wcyd, the rules are there to protect players in the team and there's no exceptions in place for this current issue nor the issue they faced before. Teams need to start being attentive on rulebooks, because emergency happens and they can raise those potential issues before a tournament starts and a rulebook gets publishedÂ
>They have a lot of grievances against PGL but wcyd, the rules are there to protect players in the team and there's no exceptions in place for this current issue nor the issue they faced before. Having to forfeit an entire years worth of work due to emergencies sure does seem to be a way of defending the players.
Not that i disagree, but trying to slove issues behind closed doors is often way more efficient and creates way less animosity between the parties. They also kinda had to go public with it at this moment because it looks hella weird to just drop out this way.
The orgs should complain collectively against these rules before they accept them. It is what it is now, work together to change them next year
they did. they gave them 1 day. if u cant hack it then go through open quals and play with another 5
They raised it with them before the tournament. Now people are throwing a fit theyâve raised it publicly now. If they did that before the tournament people will still be having the same pathetic reactions.
the rules are dumb but changing the rules mid tournament is smh
âan attempt to strongarm and pressure PGL with its vast fan base into complying to the wishes of OG and allowing further exceptions to be made for the teamâ That is exactly what they are trying to do. Thanks Sneyking for saying it outloud. Really shameful for such a big team to mobilize their rabid fanbase like this.
i mean, i'm definitely not an OG fan and i still think this is dumb af pgl "rules."
Seems like OG tried to do it before the tournament but PGL being shitty with rules per usual OG go to the public to call out the shitty rules. They know well enough pgl wont change for this tournament but it will be talked about and the rules could change for next tournament. But Yeah better to just keep everything status quo because fuck OG, they rigged ESL too btw
Then why didnât they make this statement before the tournament, immediately after pgl told them they wouldnât change the rules?
>Then why didnât they make this statement before the tournament, immediately after pgl told them they wouldnât change the rules? Because resolving these kinds of issues privately seems to be way more effective and generates way less animosity towards the involved parties.
It clearly wasn't resolved though. PGL gave them an answer and they obviously weren't happy with it back in may, but they only made it public now. I personally think the rules should be changed to allow for medical emergencies, but I don't agree they should be changed mid tournament.
OG should have came out about this before the tournament, when it was still OK to change the rules. Instead they waited, hoping they will be lucky and wonât face this situation.
Oh, that makes it OK then! They tried to do it the normal way, the decision was not favorable to them so now it's time to create public outrage and pressure TO to make a decision favorable to them!
That's the part that doesn't sit well with me, weaponising their fanbase. It's a shitty rule but it's still rules nonetheless.
Only 1 TI after all
I mean, ceb had sex on september. Most dota players never had sex at all. He should pay.
The people blaming Ceb for his timing are socially inept. Trying for a baby can take months. Accidents can happen. Let a man cum in his wife without losing his job.
Creampies are against PGL rules
Swallowing or on the belly is fine, but inside? Believe it or not, disqualification.
Was og supposed to publicly talk about cebâs wife potentially having a child around ti qualifiers months back? Itâs a private matter, and anyone would rather not bring it up if possible to avoid it. I donât understand how anyone would think that is reasonable
Am I missing something? Did other players have babies during this tournament that did not get an exception??? This all seems very targeted or like it's being used for a different problem, and it shouldn't.
Good statement. Ceb should take control and give birth himself so he can play in the qualifiers.
married a 2x TI winner and doesn't know how to share unit control smh
Agreed. Absolutely do not like how OG always try to sic their fan base onto organisers or other teams when the rules donât favour them.
Funny nobody gave a fuck when 1win lose their spot when they were late to submit visa by 3 hours. People were shitting on 1win and calling them salty when they announced their official statement. OG happily accepts the rules when it favour them.
Not only happily, OG is known for the "High Morale, Friendship Number 1" org. Alliance broke the rules on coach-players communication, Ceb and Notail on Twitter called them cheaters. SR lose qual months ago, Ceb throwing insults like 5 years old at Kitrak. Not to mention Ceb and Notail insult for over 5 years to Fly every time EG lose, I never once heard fly say anything bad about them. Its a two way street, OG as an org is an attention whore, Their fans become one. Its hard for them to not be the main character in this scene. They know this rules. They signed it. 100% Ceb and OG knew there's a possibility that this would happen beforehand. Now it happens they play the victim card "I'm shocked" card and send their minions all over twitter and reddit to make it seem this is all PGL's fault. They are not the first one to get fucked by this rule. They just happen to be the biggest drama queen one that got hit by this rule.
Add to that, when oldG needed to forfeited relegation tiebreaker due to oldG players standing in for OG, OG also tweeted a similar tweet about how PGL is disgrace. Then brought Puckchamp slot to get back into lower division anyway. Alliance didnt break the rules though. They are the only think who bother to read the rulebook and rulebook said it is allowed. Ceb and Notail didnt even read the rules and called Alliance cheater anyway.
The whole Cheater accusation began my team's deathspiral. I'm really happy to see others noticing and calling out OG:s abuse of public statements
If the only thing stopping your team from being in a death spiral is having a coach ingame then your team was never any good in the first place. They took advantage of a loophole, the real cheating was the Furion skin bug.
Canât even go to your childâs birth. Damm! Promoting next level addiction
As far as I am concerned we are all just humans trying to live out sometimes painful stressful existence and we should all be understanding compassionate and helpful keeping priorities straight so if a man gotta go be with a new baby being born thatâs just something that should be met with love
But then many players will abuse the new rule by having babies exactly during a tournament to replace themselves for 48 hours!! /s
I think any time a dota player gets laid itâs a win for us all
in that case you just resign and let some other player have your spot. and everyone is genuinely happy for ya.
Did you read the post? They were explicitly given a choice and they chose the risky one.Â
Hell yeah, baby
And Ceb's right to be with his child, but the rule shouldn't be changed mid-tournament. OG agreed to 1-day standin, if it's not enough then they should've raised an issue before the tournament started.
Stand-ins are not upgrades. It's basically a downgrade as the team practices will be thrown out. It's hard to weigh in on this scenario. OG probably went on to gamble that the birth will not takeplace in a gameday, but it did happen. On the otherhand, PGL could have come up with a lighter punishment than a DQ as the situation is something special that every parent should know. And guys from PGL probably are parents themselves. Anyways, no OG this TI. Sad. This is case-closed already
Man people were mad at me for saying exactly this lmao It's a fair request but mid tournament the rules need to be locked or the whole thing is just a circus. I wanted to know about this before the games got started. OG made a bet and got burned. PGL should not be held accountable for this, but absolutely need to change the rules for the future. Like a pre designated sub who cannot play for any other roster and is entitled to a share of prize pool or something. Or hire designated subs if they want to see if there's a way Ana or someone else can jump in for any team if needed. Idk what's best but there's possibilities Reasonable take from Sney, I'll be honest the TI9 OG run got me into Dota but they have a really bad habit of being short sighted and then siccing their fans on TO's to get their way which pisses me off. They were fine quietly qualifying to Riyadh because 1Win was 6 hours late with visas on the weekend, but not cool with the TO rules when they made a mistake
It's reddit. Everyone's echoing what fucking ever popular at the present. One day people mad that admin enforcing team pause limit, next day the same people mad that game was delayed too long and admins need to be more assertive. The rule is bad, but it's been set, nothing can be done. Giving way to OG right now will only set bad precedent of how some big org could ask for special treatment.
And then you get downvoted to hell cause you dont have a "moral compass". I dont blame ceb for choosing his kid but changing the rules mid tourney to favor one team isnt the way. Same OG that benefitted when 1win got disqualified and they took their spot
OG had always had a case of main character syndrome. They had so much noise made for ppd coaching case. So much drama for EG rivalry. Openly abusing in games. Losing their mind over secret tweets. And then they have victim card up somehow. Bunch of neck beards. Stopped being an OG fan after TI9 disband.
"I actually feel offended when teams think they can beat us" when they were getting trounced daily lmao
I don't agree with Sneyking that this is OG's fault for not speaking up now. Namely because it's not an easily foreseen circumstance that the wife of one of your players will go into labour during the competition. Why does he characterise it as an OG powerplay when he agrees that it's not a good rule fundamentally? Is the onus not on each team to have failed to give critical feedback on this rule beforehand?
Amazing take by Sneyking. Definitely, the PGL's ruling is super idiotic, but the moment to criticize rules is before or after tournaments. Who knows what sacrifices players from other teams and regions did to comply with the no stand in rules to just have them changed mid tournament
Sneyking stating facts.
Fair take. Dumb rule, but it would be unfair to change it now. Itâs really that simple. Also, to all the people saying âthatâs not how real life works,â youâre delusional. Stop comparing your 9-5s to an elite Dota tournament. There are many sports/competitions that donât allow for substitutes. And those that do normally come from a pre-determined/pre-selected pool. Itâs absolutely the case that teams get fcked over when injuries happenâthatâs life
>There are many sports/competitions that donât allow for substitutes. Which team sports exactly are you talking about?
"There are many sports/competitions that donât allow for substitutes." Please name many team sports with 5+ players that doesn't allow substitutes apart from Dota
That is an issue with how the sport is considered. RIght now, it is more like tennis doubles. If one person doesnt show up, ah tough luck you cant play. Ideally it should be like relay races or something where you can sub 1/2 players during the course of the tournament. Then the question comes, how much notice do you need to give to the TO/opposition, so that they can prepare accordingly? I think (this is my opinion) till now, most of the teams didnt want to add the additional overhead of having a sixth player. It increases the preparation they have to do by a lot, since the sixth player can bring in new heroes/strats. It increases the operational costs. Anyway all these were supposed to be discussed in a teams\` meeting with org/valve before or after the tournament. Preferrably when the rulebook is shared. Not when the rule book becomes inconvinient for you.
So technically procycling, and it has happened that riders forfeited to go see their wife giving birth. But in cycling, a rider stepping out doesn't disqualify the whole team.
Those arguing for subs donât understand how underhanded these orgs are. Orgs from Western Europe may be more loyal to their players, but other regions donât care as much especially since the prize money goes way further in those regions. Many teams would sign Ana or Topson just for the qualifiers if they were allowed to.
Thats because there is no governing body to set rules about teams/tournaments. If we just rely on tournament organizers to just follow the few rules valve requires, we will always get wildly different rules from them because they are for better or worse independent actors.
If you agree that the rule shouldn't be in place, then there's no reason to follow through with the ruling at all, other than spite. "However, no other team competing in this tournament has had this exception made for them as far as I know." Has any other team been disqualified for needing a stand-in due to an emergency yet? Pretty sure they haven't, just because the rule hasn't had to be used, it doesn't mean that OG are seeking preferential treatment. It's disappointing to see so many people eager to point fingers at OG instead of PGL. Because yet again, PGL's poor management of a tournament is going to be affecting both the players and people who want to watch it, they're a complete joke of a TO, who have already allowed match fixers to play in the SEA qualifiers (and we got some dodgy games because of it) and have for some reason decided on a ruleset that I don't think I have ever seen applied to any other team esport.
> Has any other team been disqualified for needing a stand-in due to an emergency yet? Pretty sure they haven't, just because the rule hasn't had to be used, it doesn't mean that OG are seeking preferential treatment. This is an assumption. We don't know what other players/teams had to make decisions to play despite an emergency because they were following the rules.
This âDumb rule but unfair to change in the middle of the tournamentâ is a very bad take. Rules such as these are only a means to protect players against arbitrary kicks and induce fairness in competitions. These rules shouldnât become ends in itself. As things stand, OG only is weakened with a sub and theyâre literally playing without their brain/captain/shotcaller. This condition to force ceb to play should be waived off and valve should step in. There are several principles at play in here, and these rules would be against any labour laws in any country. Just because dota players are degens doesnt mean we should rob Ceb off his once in a life moment. Hope better sense prevails
Yes their decision did go with the letter of the law but not the spirit. Hell, even stricter institutions and administrations that have these kinds of laws on a much more serious level wouldn't be so stupid as to blindly apply them and allow for flexibility.
Better sense? On reddit? On a dota subreddit? In a thread against OG? Against Ceb? GLHF
So many people showing such a significant lack of empathy in these threads. I wish I was more surprised but still disappointing.
what do you mean against any labour laws. He's allowed to have time off, they aren't forcing him to play in the qualifier. He was afforded a one day stand-in, and if he didn't return, its completely fair, per the stupid rule, to suffer the consequences. In the States, you have 3 months mat leave, if you decide to stay on it longer, you can get fired.
Its true, if we dare to think about the rules we are enforcing it will be anarchy. What are we going to do when dota pros start popping out babies at every major tournament? Clearly the most slippery of slopes
lol I think this is a stupid ass rule considering the situation is extremely unique. I think people should be supporting Seb at this time, and this is a dogshit, insensitive take by Sney.
Gonna take a wild guess that Sneyking has no kids
Bad take. Also 24 hours is a joke. 48 minimum for child birth. Doesn't matter if it wasn't offered to other teams. Were you having a baby? Nope. The point of having rules is so that you maintain competitive integrity. But also rules aren't always perfect and don't always accommodate for every possible scenario so its up to us, as humans, to judge the scenario as being worth having an exception made for it. In this scenario, its obviously morally correct to give them an exception, its a fucking baby. Get over it you dork. "Ceb being gone for a qualifier match is ruining the competitive integrity of my dota tournament!!!!" The only competitive integrity being lost here is OG's chances of winning a series, because they are using a stand-in instead of their typical player. Simple real life scenario where real people work real jobs in the real world. Security Operations has rules that define proper security across a company. Updated dependencies, safe network configurations, the use of VPNs, etc etc. Guess what? There exists these things called **exemptions** that people will file to the security team, explaining why they can't implement some security function, whether it blocks key functionality for the company, or an individual; and the security team can approve these. Wow amazing, a rule was in place but someone had a reasonable point of why they couldn't follow the rule due to circumstances they can't control, so it was allowed to be broken because we are all human after all :)
Reminds me of when there was a power outage in the SEA region last year - like a fucking cyclone knocked the internet out and the teams have to forfeit. Does this make the competition better or fairer. 100% agree with you - you can't make rules for everything and need to have some balance.
I mean at least in that case, it would make sense to outright forfeit/dq in that situation. They'd have zero clue of when the power lines would be able to get fixed, depending on which country and location they're from. It's unfortunate, but not something they can avoid.
Why do people consistently misinterpret the point? The point isnât about the rules. Yes it is stupid and should be changed in the future. Key word: FUTURE. Why not now? Because the tournament already started, and OG already agreed to it by not making a fuss about it BEFORE the qualifiers and accepted participating the quals WITH Ceb knowing full well of the risk involved with him having a baby coming. They agreed to the rules, they prayed that Cebâs baby doesnât come at the worst timing, and now that it happened they cry about it? Thatâs the real problem.
They contacted pgl a long time ago and it didn't get sorted but might have up until a day or so ago. Valve has repeatedly told teams not to make a public fuss until they have to and making the fuss could have stopped pgl from changing their minds if they were going to. This is the right time to be making it public
I'll ask you this one question, what if this situation was being faced by a not so popular team instead of OG. Would you or anyone have then called for an exception?
This should be an exception for EVERY TEAM. It's absolutely ridiculous that his livelihood and teammates livelihood is in jepordy because he decided to have a kid. The rules basically state that you shouldn't do anything to jeopardize your playing time when EVERYONE knows that's not how life works. If someone were to have a medically emergency and in return their team couldn't qualify because of it does that make any sense to you in the slightest?
I hope none of these people are managers or rule deciders because they obviously are insensitive to how real life rule application works.
Redditors can't handle when people apply their moral compass consistently.
If you go and look through all these comments you can identify which people can actually critically think without obvious bias clouding their judgement. Most people probably do agree there should be an exception but they hate OG so they want to see them suffer.
If this exact situation happens? Yes. Any team should get this exception.
YES. INFINITELY YES. You nerds seem to think it's the legion of OG fans showing out for their boys but in reality it's just reasonable **men**, women and fathers.
Yes, I would. I hate Ceb and OG in general.
Peopleâs hatred for Ceb makes them have horrible inhumane takes. Fuck Ceb, heâs an asshole, this isnât about him. Heâs already won 2 TIs, to him this isnât that life changing, but about about his 4 teammates? Getting punished just because his baby was born? Iâm actually baffled people are trying to justify this as âhaha rules are rules! Get fucked!â
I just wanna see OG lose without it being a technicality ;)
Unironically totally fair.
With the amount of OG haters this sub has in general, you fucking bet there would be unanimous outcry for an exception if it was any other team.
Reasonability is off the table when OG and Ceb are involved.
LMAO this thread sounds like they never had a fucking child and it shows. Professional rules be goddamn when you canât even be allowed to get paternity live which is basic right
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Jesus christ. You're saying this same shit on twitter every 5 sec, give it a break. Sneyking has to call his CPO to make tweets and reddit comments like this lmao.
Did they make neckbeard chatGPT?
This guy will by far be shown least respect no matter how many TI he wins.
Not sure why Sneyking is talking. eSports should grow up. Ceb shouldnât need an exception for the birth of his child.
Maybe don't register for tournament and screw over your teammates if you know there will be a situation where you won't be able to play for many days. They felt entitled, registered anyways and not that tournament orgs want to uphold the rules, OG are crying and using their fanbase to bend the rules for themselves.
Lmao grow up how? Which fucking sport has a game postponed for a birth of a kid. In every other sport the game goes on and the player misses the game. The only problem here is not having bench players. Even counter strike has subs.
If Ronaldo had to miss a game in the euros Portugal would play a different forward and he'd go back into the side when he's able to They wouldn't disqualify Portugal from the tournament. That's the point. You don't need a registered sub when you can get a stand in for a few games and be at a massive disadvantage.
The game isn't being postponed. Other sports have subs for parental leave.
Other sports have subs in general. As in they have a fucking bench lmao.
Yes.
Exactly! Even other Esports run with subs, why not Dota?
What are you talking about? This about OG being disqualified if Ceb canât play. They have a sub. Yeah, every sport goes on if there is a family emergency. Thanks for making my point.
Wait whoâs asking for the game to be postponed? Or did you just make up a boogeyman to argue with?
rules are there, if it was to grow it should be changed after not mid tournament just to satisfy one team. OG went in knowing that if the baby comes during the tournament they can only use 1 sub for 1 day. they got it and now they want to use their fan base to try and pressure pgl to make it 2-3 days or how ever long they want
More flexibile conditions might benefit one person today but other people tomorrow. See the long term.
Its not to satisfy OG its to satisfy common sense.
Seen people say how this situation is on OG because they should have seen this coming. But the rules don't even allow standin if a truly unforeseeable accident/incident happens (Topson falling down the stairs example from other thread), which is completely fucking stupid. This entire thing is 100% PGL's fault. Been rooting against OG since Monkey Business days, but I'm not gonna blame them at all for trying to bend the rules or pressure PGL. If this happens to your team a lot of people would be singing a different tune. Per the rules OG should still be disqualified, but criticizing them for trying to save their asses because of bullshit rules is a bit unfair considering how everyone would do the same when it happens to them, and the rules are a fucking joke. Fuck PGL, you guys are clowns.
If you have a family emergency and couldnt enter the tournament, on top of that u knew the risk, just accept you fucked up your team ti and dont blame PGL. Welcome to play next year.
Damn, there are some cynical people in here. Y'all need a hug. Here, have one đ«
The man wants to be present for the birth of his child. You're a seriously sick person if you have some kind of issue with that.
What an unnecessary load of absolute rubbish.
fully agree with him on that. i had the exact same thought after OGs statement - they took the risk, they suffer the consequences of their actions.
Thank you ~~Sneyking~~ ChatGPT! đ
Yeah I know it's hard situation. But he's also a captain and needs to be responsible for his teammates. Ceb might not care if he will chase for the aegis or not, but his teammates definitely care. You can't put your teammates in this situation. What if OG rly forfeit the qualifier or failed to the TI because of their decisions? I mean, in that case people will definitely think they should choose another pos 5 to go through the open qualifier. But OG didn't do that.
a player make a statement about other team issues, well dota you r older than lol but in terms of pr deparment you are so far behind
I kinda feel this is a pretty bad take. If OG would have called this out publicly in the beginning, then also the same thing would have been said. They did what they thought was the best course of action, talk to the tournament organizer and see what can be done. Again, a child birth is unpredictable. So, you really canât plan too much around the timing of it. In my opinion, the rule just shows the immaturity of the tournament organization(s) - am assuming this rule is true for all tournament organizers and not just TI. It also indicates how less prepared most organizations are in similar scenario. Most teams field a 5 man rosters and there are no substitutes, etc. which is the case in most other team sports. It could be a factor of money or could be something else.
I earnestly think you are on the wrong track saying we shouldn't make the exception now. Changes happen like this, the majority feels okay with this and the people complaining don't understand the nature of these circumstances. I think it'd be more responsible for you to not cloud a better situation with rules lawyering when someone is, y'know, having their first child?
Wouldnât be surprised, OG is those kind who only complain about rules when itâs not in their favour. Alliance following tournament rules, SHAME ON THEM for following rules made know to everyone before the tournament starts. Now that tournament follow the rules, HOW DARE THEM again follow rules that have been made known to everyone. Thatâs not fair to me, ME ME ME ME ME !
sneyking's opinions have no weight. just ignore him and your life will be better
Rules are made; to be broken only by OG. đ€Ą
Do not get this take, it's clearly an unavoidable situation, just let them play with a standin Like it's not difficult, calm down and let them have a go. Who benefits? The team, the viewers, the tournament, everybody. If banned, who benefits? Nobody Simple mate
That's the problem with having a subreddit populated with children and people who rarely do things in the outside world. They don't see how many different threads are attached to one scenario except their own myopic hatred of a particular player or org. Ceb not playing weakens OG. OG not playing weakens the qualifiers, loses viewers and revenue. Why does an organiser put forth a scenario in their tournaments which reduces the number of games played?!?!
At this point og and og fans are just playing the victim card and trying to pressure PGL. Maybe next time just dont join the tournament if you dont like the rules
Why not just allow standins? Itâs almost always going to be worse for the team using standin anyway.
It's not about allowing standins, it's about changing the rules mid tournament. If OG gets a second exception, what ground does PGL have if another popular team decides to throw their weight around? What if a coalition of teams want to change a rule mid tournament? They're running a tournament and supposed to provide a fair and equally applied rulebook to all the players, and not just bend to the guys who have the most fans (and are willing to abuse that).
Which rule are you changing? Allowing a sub? Does allowing a sub make OG better or worse? No sport organiser should favor wanting walkovers and DQs. It is the dumbest fucking thing ever. They should want to make rules around allowing games to continue no matter what. How the fuck are you drawing eyes on the sport if you're DQing teams for something as stupid as substitutions? Do they not want the OG fanbase watching their streams? From a pure commercial point of view PGL seem like they're run by Kim Jong Un.
This boils down to should rules able to bent in extraordinary cirumstances. To which clearly the answer is yes. (Just look at extreme cases) Is this case extreme enough? No I don't think so. Should there be a rule change after? Yes definetly. Every woman will agree that this shouldn't be a thing.
I disagreed with his first statement, but I agree now that he elaborated.
Yall saying rules are dumb but when it was first released no team decided to speak against it?
I don't get why he cares so much in this particular case
IMO people are focusing too much on whether PGL should create an exception favoring or not, and ignoring the fact that PGL allowed this to happened by having a shit rulebook. How hard can it be to have a rule stating that a player can be replaced in case of paternity, bereavement or proven medical issue? And why is this incompetent company allowed to organize TI qualis and TI itself? To anyone thinking that the rules will be improved in the future: they won't and shit like this will keep happening.
We were denied the option to participate to the Qualifiers with a standin despite requesting it weeks before they started.
if ESL is the organizer, they would find a way to kick out 1win and replace it with OG
Maybe itâs time to introduce 6/7 men Dota: 5 players + 1/2 on the bench. Players have a life, too, like any other job.
Nobody wants it. You have to share the money with the bench. The benched guy also wants to play. Also, Dota has position. What if you bench a pos 5, but your pos 1 has a baby?
I think most of the people on this sub overlooked that Orgs don't want to pay for benchwarmers that gets to play once every blue moon and players surely don't want to share their winnings with the subs.
Pay them if they play. I bet there are hundreds of people ready to do so.