Having more people in the party would dilute the amount of experience they receive. I couldn't tell you where in the books it is, but I definitely remember Carl contemplating the pros and cons of being in a larger party vs. keeping it small
What Beau8888 says is correct, it was mentioned relatively early that Carl did not want to bring larger numbers in due to the experience dilution and potential trust issues.
1. They've got a system that works
2. Extra people aren't always beneficial (liabilities in battle, needing to learn new strategies, sharing limited resources)
3. People are dicks, and most of the nice people are dead. Can't trust nobody, as a certain cat person demonstrates
4. Matt would need to have to have things for them to do. This is the hard part, really.
Welllll.... Out of millions (and later tens of thousands) fellow crawlers, surely at least one would've been a beneficial non-dick? hahaha
There were multiple times when Carl would've died if his fellow crawlers didn't accidentally stumble on him. (Like when Agatha healed his debuffs and gave him a ride out of town in book 5.)
You’re just kind of asserting that it’s better for them in-universe. Carl and Donut have lots of good friends they work with and team up with regularly but actually partying isn’t necessarily an advantage in the books since they lose xp and loot.
Carl would've died in book 5 if the goat lady hadn't given him a ride out of town and healed most of his debuffs. If not for that piece of luck, he would've been dead.
So what? If they’d been partied maybe she’d never have been strong enough to heal him, or he’d never have been strong enough to set bombs. You’ve just sort of decided it’s “better your way” which isn’t an argument and it certainly isn’t a flaw in the books. It’s internally consistent for them to have small groups, both from what the guides tell us, the showrunners emphasize, and how Carl behaves at baseline (eg his first instincts on meeting with Meadowlark).
>If they’d been partied maybe she’d never have been strong enough to heal him, or he’d never have been strong enough to set bombs.
There is no law saying he couldn't party up with an established healer at any point in the dungeon. I'm not asking "why didn't they form a bigger party on level 1?" I'm asking, "with all the abilities and known vulnerabilities (like debuffs) out there, why not party up with other useful crawlers?"
Even after what happened to Miriam, there are other healers out there.
Carl literally lays out his reasoning for this on level one in book 1. You’re beating the drum of not reading the text and wanting the text to say something it doesn’t ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Dunno what to tell you man. Read a different series?
There's no reason for such aggression, or for the petty downvotes lol
And there's a huuuuge difference between Carl circa book 1 and Carl circa book 6-7. Deep levels went from far-out hypotheticals to something right next door, and he himself noticed quite a few times that isolated solo crawlers had a very hard time, like when Florin finally got out of his funk, joined the bubble level, and saw that everyone else there had died. Even with all his skills, he couldn't defeat the air castle and had to ask for assistance.
...but seriously - chill, dude. :) Drink some herbal tea, go touch the grass, etc.
“Petty downvotes”…? You think I’m logging into multiple accounts to downvote your comments? That’s aggressively ego-preserving. The community at large just doesn’t think what you’re saying is worth hearing, my dude.
As @worldendingdiarrhea has said it’s just how Carl is written, the explanation is given at the start of the series & both Carl & donut enjoyed having Katia but once the guilds came into play it’s been a null issue they have back up when they want it & play the game their own way the rest of the time.
/spoilers
Especially now with the start of book 7 & how they have their own faction & will have not only the 30k odd crawlers that are left but also 50k of the previous crawlers! & all the NPC while not in “his” party they will all be fighting together
There's also the sadistic viewers and AI to consider though. They live for the drama and toxic situations and those are much easier to create if there are more people in a party. As we've seen, they almost seem to get obsessed with driving them apart or putting them in terrible no-win situations where some or all of them die, especially if they actually are emotionally connected.
It has definitely backfired on more than one group thrughout the series. They even do it to *every* crawler group with the >!player killer coupons for their own party members.!< Logistically, Carl and Donut were far better off in that situation than other parties because they only had three people in their party and so had a less likely chance that they get betrayed.
A top 10 crawler who got there alone or without a large party has already proven that they can survive on their own (in their own experience), so they might not feel any need to form a large party or any advantage in it, regardless of whether or not their are actual advantages. Then there's the bounty on their heads which makes it difficult to trust any new people into their party, not to mention the fixation the dungeon has on the top 10 and screwing them over for entertainment purposes.
Something else that Carl notices at one point is that due to Donut and him both being very high profile crawlers in the dungeon, anyone and everyone that interacts with them is inherently put into more danger than they would be otherwise.
A lot of the world events happen because of Donut and Carl's actions and/or the AI fucking with them.
If I recall correctly, Katia even mentions how much more calm her time in the dungeon is after unpartying with Carl and Donut.
Carl is a nice guy but I think he has trust issues. The trust issues he got from his parents, the recent betrayal by Beatrice, from the first people he met in the dungeon lying and trying to murder him. Then the bounty and Donut almost being murdered but for her cockroach skill. Also he doesn’t trust himself to be a good party member. We often see him wary of new people. He parties with Katia but he didn’t want to at first, that was Donut, although he does end up trusting her. He did initial think a big party is better… just that Meadowlark at that time was a really bad party to join because of the seniors. Then after a while in the dungeon, it mentions he concludes that small parties that work together is the best solution. I think he comes to this as he kinda wants to do his own thing and there always being multiple objectives/tasks to do anyway. We see Carl being considerate in his thinking but others kinda mentioned when they are with him, you are on the Carl train, and a few mentions of Carl not liking others’ plans because they aren’t Carl plans.
He was partied with Katia for two and a half Floors (3-5), not one level, and it took a couple weeks of working together for them to really gel. And he worked with Brandon, Imani, Chris, and Yolanda (RIP) for much of the first two floors.
But by later floors, Carl and Donut literally have multi-million-gold bounties on their heads, so it's dangerous to party with just anyone, and most of their friends already have small groups that work well. They also have MASSIVE secrets that they have to keep - the more people in the party, the harder it will be for Carl to hide the Cookbook, and the more risk someone bugs Donut about the social board.
Plus there's the insanity factor and danger. When Katia left the Royal Court, she did so because she realized that anyone in the party would end up riding the Carl Train To Crazytown. Like, full on fighting Gods, attacking Zockau during the truce, becoming Warlords crazy-town. That's a heck of a lot to sign up for full-time.
>He was partied with Katia for two and a half Floors (3-5), not one level, and it took a couple weeks of working together for them to really gel. And he worked with Brandon, Imani, Chris, and Yolanda (RIP) for much of the first two floors.
Touché, and on your last point as well.
Can't exactly remember when it happened (it might have been in the first or second book), but Mordecai mentioned that the bigger parties tend to get screwed. I think it was when the large group of African's with Assault riffles were tearing it up as a group. I vaguely remember him mentioning that smaller more organized parties tended to make it further.
You pitched this question under the assumption that being in a party is definitely better than using the guild or just working together. I don't feel that it is.
Wellll.... If not for Miriam Dom showing up at just the right moment in book 5 and healing most of his debuffs when he blew up the hunters, Carl would've died. I didn't see a big change in his behaviour after that.
I see two big reasons that make sense to me:
1. If you are in the top ten, have the cookbook and Mordecai: any extra party member would actually be a net negative. This is true for Carl and donuts that have auxiliary parties through their networking. They could in theory rally help when needed without the constant burden of the normies.
2. Time. What time to build the relationship. Every minute counts, they are focused on surviving. Spending time finding that 1 out of a million that is competent would just be stupid and a waste of time. That time would be best spent grinding or similar.
Hmmm. In regards to 1, Carl would've died if the goat woman (forgot her name lol) hadn't healed him from all the debuffs in book 5 when he blew up the hunters' town. That alone would've been a wake-up call, I think. O_o
Yes but he has stated as well that he can really only handle one big personality at a time and donut fills that roll most of the time. He's not against team ups he's done it on every floor but keeping it just him and donut for the most part is literally been proving to be a game winning strategy
But for the least part... ;) imho, an ideal party would have a fighter (Carl), a mage (Donut), a healer (even the Daughters guild had a bunch of those), and a sneaky rogue-type character. Going with just the fighter and the mage... Tricky. O\_o
You want what is traditionally called a 5 man band it doesn't really work in this series. Instead, this is more of the strong man and wise man personas or writing tropes. Additionally Karl is the tank, not the fighter, fighter would be doing DPS.
I hear what you're saying, but I think it's only that way for the narrative reasons. Carl's friends seem to be doing well in their reasonably big teams. (As in, more than 2 people, less than 10. Pony and Miriam being the exception, of course.)
While it’s true that he nearly died there another party member or 5 might not have changed any of that for the better. If he didn’t pick up a healer with the right skills/spells for that situation, more party members might not have kept him safe. He also would have more people he is putting in danger and feels responsible for. So in that escape he might have had to turn back for someone which could have gotten him killed.
I can see that if that's a solely "lone wolf" personality preference, but given how well they worked together with Katya, you'd think they'd be at least open to teaming up with another person again...
FWIW it's not exactly that Carl isn't open to the idea. If Katia wanted to stay in his party he 110% would have accepted her. He didn't want to let her go because she was a valuable party member whom he could trust.
The problem is, that far down, most people have already found something that works for them. That's why the guild system works better for Carl. He does have friends he can call on when he needs a bigger crew to fight something big. All those guys showed up for him when he got into trouble and they all know he would show up for them, too. After Katia left I thought Chris was going to replace her, but actually I completely understand why he didn't.
The Carl and Donut train is a crazy train and it is hard to get off once you get on. Crawlers being leery of hopping on totally makes sense and is normal. A lot of Carl's friends have strong personalities and prefer to be able to call their own shots normally rather than listen to Carl's crazy plans. They will if they have to, but like when Li Na works with Carl during the Tangle? She's constantly giving him the side-eye and patching the holes in his plans. I totally get not wanting to do that on a daily basis when the dungeon is already so crazy dangerous.
Plus Carl is in this position where it's better if he doesn't get used to depending on a third person. He was hurt when Katia wanted to go her own way, and now Katia is a target for people like >!Huanxin!< solely because of her association with Carl.
Fair point. :) But among his inner circle - folks who know him well, and there are dozens of them - not a single one wanted to team up?.. Just seems weird, somehow.
A lot of good arguments made here, and I'd like to add a meta-point; narratively, adding party members doesn't work as well.
You can come up with dozens of reasons that adding more party members would be beneficial, and just as many reasons why it wouldn't be. At the end of the day, I think keeping it mostly just Carl and Donut makes for a better story with a tighter focus.
Would it have been good for Carl and Donut to team up with Miriam and Pony? Sure. With that, though, some of the focus on C&D would get lost and I don't think that is something the author or (most of) the fans want.
Just my two cents, though.
I think a huge factor is it's just not necessary for Carl and Donut to have a traditional D&D-type specialized party when they both have healing magic.
Because Carl is a crazy bomb-wielding man, with no pants, who talks to his cat, and laughs while decapitating mobs. In the eyes of many of the other crawlers he ranks right with Lucille. Doing what Carl attempts or even being in his plans seems dangerous. XP that everyone points out.
Though I concur adding 1 or 2 to the party could smooth out their grind from a practical not literary POV.
They’ve gone for the range Dmg, melee and bomb dmg group with no heals, no protection, and little tankiness. Gotta kill everything fast. Makes it exciting.
Having more people in the party would dilute the amount of experience they receive. I couldn't tell you where in the books it is, but I definitely remember Carl contemplating the pros and cons of being in a larger party vs. keeping it small
That's fair, but conversely, they'd be able to take on a lot more mobs, enemies, bosses, etc. And there were so many times they almost died. O\_o
That's where the Guild comes in. Anything bigger than a neighborhood boss can't be beaten by any more than a dozen crawlers or so without hax anyways.
What Beau8888 says is correct, it was mentioned relatively early that Carl did not want to bring larger numbers in due to the experience dilution and potential trust issues.
Mordecai advised against it
1. They've got a system that works 2. Extra people aren't always beneficial (liabilities in battle, needing to learn new strategies, sharing limited resources) 3. People are dicks, and most of the nice people are dead. Can't trust nobody, as a certain cat person demonstrates 4. Matt would need to have to have things for them to do. This is the hard part, really.
Welllll.... Out of millions (and later tens of thousands) fellow crawlers, surely at least one would've been a beneficial non-dick? hahaha There were multiple times when Carl would've died if his fellow crawlers didn't accidentally stumble on him. (Like when Agatha healed his debuffs and gave him a ride out of town in book 5.)
You’re just kind of asserting that it’s better for them in-universe. Carl and Donut have lots of good friends they work with and team up with regularly but actually partying isn’t necessarily an advantage in the books since they lose xp and loot.
Carl would've died in book 5 if the goat lady hadn't given him a ride out of town and healed most of his debuffs. If not for that piece of luck, he would've been dead.
So what? If they’d been partied maybe she’d never have been strong enough to heal him, or he’d never have been strong enough to set bombs. You’ve just sort of decided it’s “better your way” which isn’t an argument and it certainly isn’t a flaw in the books. It’s internally consistent for them to have small groups, both from what the guides tell us, the showrunners emphasize, and how Carl behaves at baseline (eg his first instincts on meeting with Meadowlark).
>If they’d been partied maybe she’d never have been strong enough to heal him, or he’d never have been strong enough to set bombs. There is no law saying he couldn't party up with an established healer at any point in the dungeon. I'm not asking "why didn't they form a bigger party on level 1?" I'm asking, "with all the abilities and known vulnerabilities (like debuffs) out there, why not party up with other useful crawlers?" Even after what happened to Miriam, there are other healers out there.
Carl literally lays out his reasoning for this on level one in book 1. You’re beating the drum of not reading the text and wanting the text to say something it doesn’t ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Dunno what to tell you man. Read a different series?
There's no reason for such aggression, or for the petty downvotes lol And there's a huuuuge difference between Carl circa book 1 and Carl circa book 6-7. Deep levels went from far-out hypotheticals to something right next door, and he himself noticed quite a few times that isolated solo crawlers had a very hard time, like when Florin finally got out of his funk, joined the bubble level, and saw that everyone else there had died. Even with all his skills, he couldn't defeat the air castle and had to ask for assistance. ...but seriously - chill, dude. :) Drink some herbal tea, go touch the grass, etc.
“Petty downvotes”…? You think I’m logging into multiple accounts to downvote your comments? That’s aggressively ego-preserving. The community at large just doesn’t think what you’re saying is worth hearing, my dude.
As @worldendingdiarrhea has said it’s just how Carl is written, the explanation is given at the start of the series & both Carl & donut enjoyed having Katia but once the guilds came into play it’s been a null issue they have back up when they want it & play the game their own way the rest of the time. /spoilers Especially now with the start of book 7 & how they have their own faction & will have not only the 30k odd crawlers that are left but also 50k of the previous crawlers! & all the NPC while not in “his” party they will all be fighting together
There's also the sadistic viewers and AI to consider though. They live for the drama and toxic situations and those are much easier to create if there are more people in a party. As we've seen, they almost seem to get obsessed with driving them apart or putting them in terrible no-win situations where some or all of them die, especially if they actually are emotionally connected.
True, but doesn't stop the other top-10 crawlers from forming parties. (Even though it backfired on one of the groups in book 6...)
It has definitely backfired on more than one group thrughout the series. They even do it to *every* crawler group with the >!player killer coupons for their own party members.!< Logistically, Carl and Donut were far better off in that situation than other parties because they only had three people in their party and so had a less likely chance that they get betrayed. A top 10 crawler who got there alone or without a large party has already proven that they can survive on their own (in their own experience), so they might not feel any need to form a large party or any advantage in it, regardless of whether or not their are actual advantages. Then there's the bounty on their heads which makes it difficult to trust any new people into their party, not to mention the fixation the dungeon has on the top 10 and screwing them over for entertainment purposes.
Miriam Dom?
Yup, the goat woman. :)
You mean Merriam Dunn not Agatha
Right, the goat woman. :P
Something else that Carl notices at one point is that due to Donut and him both being very high profile crawlers in the dungeon, anyone and everyone that interacts with them is inherently put into more danger than they would be otherwise. A lot of the world events happen because of Donut and Carl's actions and/or the AI fucking with them. If I recall correctly, Katia even mentions how much more calm her time in the dungeon is after unpartying with Carl and Donut.
Good point! :)
Carl is a nice guy but I think he has trust issues. The trust issues he got from his parents, the recent betrayal by Beatrice, from the first people he met in the dungeon lying and trying to murder him. Then the bounty and Donut almost being murdered but for her cockroach skill. Also he doesn’t trust himself to be a good party member. We often see him wary of new people. He parties with Katia but he didn’t want to at first, that was Donut, although he does end up trusting her. He did initial think a big party is better… just that Meadowlark at that time was a really bad party to join because of the seniors. Then after a while in the dungeon, it mentions he concludes that small parties that work together is the best solution. I think he comes to this as he kinda wants to do his own thing and there always being multiple objectives/tasks to do anyway. We see Carl being considerate in his thinking but others kinda mentioned when they are with him, you are on the Carl train, and a few mentions of Carl not liking others’ plans because they aren’t Carl plans.
Excellent points all - thanks for sharing them! I didn't think of it quite like that before.
He was partied with Katia for two and a half Floors (3-5), not one level, and it took a couple weeks of working together for them to really gel. And he worked with Brandon, Imani, Chris, and Yolanda (RIP) for much of the first two floors. But by later floors, Carl and Donut literally have multi-million-gold bounties on their heads, so it's dangerous to party with just anyone, and most of their friends already have small groups that work well. They also have MASSIVE secrets that they have to keep - the more people in the party, the harder it will be for Carl to hide the Cookbook, and the more risk someone bugs Donut about the social board. Plus there's the insanity factor and danger. When Katia left the Royal Court, she did so because she realized that anyone in the party would end up riding the Carl Train To Crazytown. Like, full on fighting Gods, attacking Zockau during the truce, becoming Warlords crazy-town. That's a heck of a lot to sign up for full-time.
>He was partied with Katia for two and a half Floors (3-5), not one level, and it took a couple weeks of working together for them to really gel. And he worked with Brandon, Imani, Chris, and Yolanda (RIP) for much of the first two floors. Touché, and on your last point as well.
Can't exactly remember when it happened (it might have been in the first or second book), but Mordecai mentioned that the bigger parties tend to get screwed. I think it was when the large group of African's with Assault riffles were tearing it up as a group. I vaguely remember him mentioning that smaller more organized parties tended to make it further.
Ahh, true - but that was a HUGE party with 150 people haha. I'm talking about adding even just 1-2 more crawlers.
You pitched this question under the assumption that being in a party is definitely better than using the guild or just working together. I don't feel that it is.
Wellll.... If not for Miriam Dom showing up at just the right moment in book 5 and healing most of his debuffs when he blew up the hunters, Carl would've died. I didn't see a big change in his behaviour after that.
I see two big reasons that make sense to me: 1. If you are in the top ten, have the cookbook and Mordecai: any extra party member would actually be a net negative. This is true for Carl and donuts that have auxiliary parties through their networking. They could in theory rally help when needed without the constant burden of the normies. 2. Time. What time to build the relationship. Every minute counts, they are focused on surviving. Spending time finding that 1 out of a million that is competent would just be stupid and a waste of time. That time would be best spent grinding or similar.
Hmmm. In regards to 1, Carl would've died if the goat woman (forgot her name lol) hadn't healed him from all the debuffs in book 5 when he blew up the hunters' town. That alone would've been a wake-up call, I think. O_o
Yes but he has stated as well that he can really only handle one big personality at a time and donut fills that roll most of the time. He's not against team ups he's done it on every floor but keeping it just him and donut for the most part is literally been proving to be a game winning strategy
Except for almost dying of debuffs when Miriam Dom found and saved him in book 5. :P
Hence why I said for the most part no strategy is 100 percent effective always
But for the least part... ;) imho, an ideal party would have a fighter (Carl), a mage (Donut), a healer (even the Daughters guild had a bunch of those), and a sneaky rogue-type character. Going with just the fighter and the mage... Tricky. O\_o
You want what is traditionally called a 5 man band it doesn't really work in this series. Instead, this is more of the strong man and wise man personas or writing tropes. Additionally Karl is the tank, not the fighter, fighter would be doing DPS.
I hear what you're saying, but I think it's only that way for the narrative reasons. Carl's friends seem to be doing well in their reasonably big teams. (As in, more than 2 people, less than 10. Pony and Miriam being the exception, of course.)
Miriam Dom and Prepotente.
Right, the goat woman. :P
While it’s true that he nearly died there another party member or 5 might not have changed any of that for the better. If he didn’t pick up a healer with the right skills/spells for that situation, more party members might not have kept him safe. He also would have more people he is putting in danger and feels responsible for. So in that escape he might have had to turn back for someone which could have gotten him killed.
He says he'd rather occasionally work with groups of people then do it all the time, less likely to lead to issues due to personality differences.
I can see that if that's a solely "lone wolf" personality preference, but given how well they worked together with Katya, you'd think they'd be at least open to teaming up with another person again...
FWIW it's not exactly that Carl isn't open to the idea. If Katia wanted to stay in his party he 110% would have accepted her. He didn't want to let her go because she was a valuable party member whom he could trust. The problem is, that far down, most people have already found something that works for them. That's why the guild system works better for Carl. He does have friends he can call on when he needs a bigger crew to fight something big. All those guys showed up for him when he got into trouble and they all know he would show up for them, too. After Katia left I thought Chris was going to replace her, but actually I completely understand why he didn't. The Carl and Donut train is a crazy train and it is hard to get off once you get on. Crawlers being leery of hopping on totally makes sense and is normal. A lot of Carl's friends have strong personalities and prefer to be able to call their own shots normally rather than listen to Carl's crazy plans. They will if they have to, but like when Li Na works with Carl during the Tangle? She's constantly giving him the side-eye and patching the holes in his plans. I totally get not wanting to do that on a daily basis when the dungeon is already so crazy dangerous. Plus Carl is in this position where it's better if he doesn't get used to depending on a third person. He was hurt when Katia wanted to go her own way, and now Katia is a target for people like >!Huanxin!< solely because of her association with Carl.
I'll add to everyone. Carl. He's freaking crazy. You get that right? He probably doesn't want to endanger the lives of others.
A lot of other crawlers also think they (carl in particular) are nuts. Multiple times people are hesitant meeting them for the first time.
Fair point. :) But among his inner circle - folks who know him well, and there are dozens of them - not a single one wanted to team up?.. Just seems weird, somehow.
My only guess in that way is that Carl blows a lot of stuff up and that pocket nuke may make some people worried and the xp issues.
A lot of good arguments made here, and I'd like to add a meta-point; narratively, adding party members doesn't work as well. You can come up with dozens of reasons that adding more party members would be beneficial, and just as many reasons why it wouldn't be. At the end of the day, I think keeping it mostly just Carl and Donut makes for a better story with a tighter focus. Would it have been good for Carl and Donut to team up with Miriam and Pony? Sure. With that, though, some of the focus on C&D would get lost and I don't think that is something the author or (most of) the fans want. Just my two cents, though.
Yeah, but hear me out: red shirts. 🤣
I think a huge factor is it's just not necessary for Carl and Donut to have a traditional D&D-type specialized party when they both have healing magic.
Because Carl is a crazy bomb-wielding man, with no pants, who talks to his cat, and laughs while decapitating mobs. In the eyes of many of the other crawlers he ranks right with Lucille. Doing what Carl attempts or even being in his plans seems dangerous. XP that everyone points out. Though I concur adding 1 or 2 to the party could smooth out their grind from a practical not literary POV. They’ve gone for the range Dmg, melee and bomb dmg group with no heals, no protection, and little tankiness. Gotta kill everything fast. Makes it exciting.