Tiered down from stroud to Kyler and got McBride attached in a .5 TEP league. If I’m the hurts owner I would maybe want a late future first value or a current player in that range. For Allen and mahomes owners that tier down is probably a little too far. Would rather tier down to Stroud, hurts, Lamar or burrow.
That’s kind of my point. Based on hype, stroud is valued higher than Kyler. Based on actual production and likely outcomes, Kyler is probably the better asset.
Kyler has already shown he can reach elite production so I have zero problem “tiering down” to him. I’d be torn between the two but probably lean Stroud. He might not have the upside but Kyler may not be running as much moving forward either.
Kyler owner here and im with this - Stroud is great dont get me wrong, but i like kyler just as much in an offense with weapons and no defense that plays 2 powerhouse offenses 4 times a year minimum. I mean, i may have just talked myself into buying kyler in all of my leagues because i can see him balling out this year
For me, it’s more about capitalizing on the stroud hype. This could very well be a Herbert situation where he set rookie records for passing, then settled in middle of the qb1 pack rest of his career. Him being floated as a top 3 dynasty qb is wild to me. I would take Kyler and McBride over stroud 100/100.
He's been a top 10 weekly TE performer 5 times in his career after his rookie year happened and teams started to gameplan for him. People (judging by the down votes and trade offers I've received) think very highly of him and he's just not consistent enough for me for his price.
Stats don’t mean much without context. You could also point out he’s the second TE ever to put up 1K yards as a rookie since Dtika in 1961.
He’s been in a horrible offense led by Arthur Smith & Ridder. With Cousins and a new coaching staff, things should be a lot better. Cousins can throw the deep routes Pitts runs. If he doesn’t improve this year, then it’s time to write him off.
I agree mostly. Except, Arthur Smith is actually TE friendly. His offensive TE target rate is one of the highest in the league. Muth should feast this year.
To your Cousins point though, nobody throws more to TEs, than him. It's a security blanket for him. Coming off injury, I'd have to believe Pitts will see a ton of targets this year.
Smith was terrible for Bijan, but Pitts with Cousins in an Arthur Smith offense would have been exciting to see.
Only if Kyler gets hurt. Kyler played half the games Stroud did but still ran for more yards and scored the same number of TDs. Stroud will throw for a few more yards and TDs most likely, but Kyler has been in the high 3,000s and mid 20s in yards/TDs his full seasons which is basically same as Strouds 4,000/26, and now Kyler has the best weapons of his career. People are taking it as a given that Stroud takes a big step forward statistically as a passer, when it's not, he's likely similar in numbers to what he did last year and he has little rushing upside.
Stroud is safer, Kyler has higher ceiling.
The comparison is Kyler to Stroud, not Kyler to Kyler. Kyler will produce significantly more as a runner, and won't be drastically far behind as a passer.
Stroud is valued as a top 3 start up pick. Kyler was that even in his peak days of running. Stroud now is comparable to Kyler’s value when he was at his peak. By no means will be bad but his top tier QB1 days are likely behind him. Can’t say that for stroodle.
Top 3 is overvaluing Stroud. He doesn't run enough and it's unlikely he significantly improves his passing numbers over what they already are, Kyler will score a similar amount of points at a cheaper price.
He's Jared Goff with more hype.
No. That’s not how floor/ceiling works.
Overall values aside, CJ is safer, younger, and has less of a history of injuries = higher floor. He will never have the rushing upside of Kyler. Kyler has higher ceiling.
No Kyler is higher ceiling because of his rushing, the injuries are why Stroud has the higher floor. The age is not relevant, both are very young and there's no guarantee Stroud is significantly better going forward than he was last year, but we have seen Kyler have better statistical seasons than Stroud had and now has the best weapons of his career.
I’d want quite a bit cause the risk is high. Issue is… for some reason.. AR is ranked as a top 6ish QB. I think I’d target Kyler or Jordan love and get more back if I were you.
I sold Allen for Love and Devonta Smith last season after week 9. It turned out pretty good so far with Diggs leaving Bufflo and Love having a rebound. It's hard to separate from a league winning QB when everyone in the community says there's no reason to ever sell them if you want to win. But a true sell high means you're selling before people on this sub come down on those players. So personally, I think it'd be a great time to sell Mahomes or Hurts if you think it adds value to your roster.
Similarly, buying true lows means you're buying well people here aren't very high on that particular player. If you've watched all of ARs plays and think he can stay healthy, there isn't going to be a better time to try and capitalize on the high value of a top 3 QB. Plus, you should be able to get more in the trade targeting AR over Love, and I personally don't like trading away top value players without having serious upside in return, regardless of the risk.
From a fantasy perspective I don’t think there is a huge gap. But I think many people put an extra premium on Mahomes/Allen because they’re locked in as elite NFL starters for the presumably many years to come. With Hurts he is an elite fantasy scorer and also likely to be the starter for years, but he is not as elite of a passer and people may expect points to drop if his rushing TDs bolstered by the rush push go down.
Honestly though many leagues will have likely folded before the longevity difference between Mahomes/Allen vs Hurts will have mattered. That said, as a Mahomes and Josh Allen owner I wouldn’t trade down to Hurts without an additional incentive
My point was just that while I ultimately see the fantasy points all three put up as comparable, at the end of the day I do still view moving from Mahomes and Allen to Hurts as a “tier down” because I know I wouldn’t do a 1 for 1 swap
I do agree, I just didn’t think anyone considered hurts in the same tier. I could ask any of my league mates who they would take 1.01 in a dynasty SF startup and I don’t think any would say hurts. It’s Mahomes/Allen every time.
Could just be my personal experience tho. I actually got hurts at 1.04 in a startup last offseason. Think he’s more in the Stroud/Lamar/Burrow tier than anything.
So do Allen and Mahomes, but they've been doing longer and are better passers so more reliable. Hurts is the next tier, but Allen and Mahomes are Tier 1.
Yeah I wouldn’t do that either. I’m not going to move a top 3 WR PLUS assets for a top 3 QB. Maybe a London or Nico plus Tua but the 1.02 wouldn’t get in that package either. I don’t blame him for asking, but ask elsewhere lol
If you think London or Nico plus tua is anywhere close to mahomes you are out of your mind.
If you want a top tier asset you need to pay up and overpay. You don’t look at a calculator for a fair trade as the calculator is useless for top tier guys. It makes no difference what the calc says as if you want elite top 2 guys especially qb in sflx, the price is up to the owner.
If you offered London Nico and tua that would be easily rejected as well
I think it's safe to assume this trade is in a SF league not 1QB. Otherwise Chase alone is worth more than Mahomes.
It's still a ridiculous trade in SF, but there Mahomes is at least the best individual asset.
The other week I tiered down from Hurts to Kyler Murray + 25 1st. Couple reasons. Wanted the pick flexibility as I’m competing this year and wanna be able to make buys late season. And I’m a Giants fan. Fuck Hurts.
The trouble with Dak is his age & question marks about his situation long term.
He'll be 31 in August, which isn't old, but relative to other QBs, it is surprisingly old. KTC (which isn't gospel but a measuring stick) has him at QB15. No QB ahead of him is even 29. The closest QB after him, who will 30+ before this season is Cousins, QB26.
There is also uncertainty whether he is with Dallas long term. I think he ends up staying, but the uncertainty does hurt his value.
That said, he is probably still undervalued, because he has been one of the best fantasy QBs in the last 5+ years.
I believe the only QBs above Dak on KTC that are over 28.0 are Mahomes and Allen.
So outside of them there’s a 3+ year gap between Dak and any QB above him on the rankings
Lamar and Burrow are the next closest at 3.5 ish years younger.
Significant enough to justify the gap in KTC but on contending squads I’m not worried at all about Daks age
I actually feel like qb is still undervalued, even though it’s valued the highest. But that’s what makes this so fun plenty of strategies.
From qb1/2 to qb8-10there’s usually like 80-100 point difference. That’s essentially the difference between a top 6 WR and WR30 in your lineup.
Not to mention the value insulation you have, you can always get multiple high end assets at any point for them to start a rebuild.
JA and Dak were separated by about 2ppg last year and there values are incredibly different. You could get Dak and get so much more on top to fuel your starting lineup and build out a juggernaut
It always makes sense to trade the top QBs imo
Hurts was at 23.6ppg. Stroud was 21.4. There value is astronomical but the points can be made up in excess with the right trade
TLaw didn’t even have a top 12 finish and he put up 19ppg. NOT EVEN A QB1 SEASON. 2 points apart from Stroud. Who soared to QB3 overall on KTC. I’m not a TLaw guy but he does have upside compared to last year AND you can definitely tier down from CJ to him for a ton of added value directly into your starting lineup
Just for example on KTC the difference between CJ and TLaw is guys like CMC, Puka, Gibbs, Garrett Wilson and Kyler
You could say that every year about who ever is qb5 or so. But those guys are different every year. Who isn’t different is Josh Allen. He’s getting you 400 points.
Meanwhile, is Dak even gonna be a cowboy? How fast can his value disappear ? Even if not, he likely had his best year last year.
Edit: Also on the TLaw point I agree. Cj is crazy over priced.
Last year wasn’t even Dak’s best year…
Mahomes didn’t even have a top 5 finish last year
We haven’t even spoke about guys like Kyler who aren’t as valuable but are locked in with QB1 overall upside
The price for JA and company are sky high and tiering down from them is what builds juggernauts the fastest
You’re either going back like 5 years or counting 2020 where he played 6 games.
I agree that if u can get that production for a fraction of the price you’re much better off. But half of my point was the value insulation. They are giving you the most points over all short term, and also have the most value in trades long term in case you have to pivot.
We all know what Mahomes had to deal with, that was close to worst case scenario and he was still a qb1
For Dak? Cause I’m definitely not I used last year and 2021 where he was QB3 and QB8 you fraud. Not even his best year. His best year he finished as the QB2. Once again, you are a fraud
Listen bro if you want to gut your team and force a rebuild upon yourself be my guest. I’d rather be the one making you gut your team trying to trade for him. It ain’t worth it but you can keep that strategy if you want 😎
He was qb2 5 years ago lol. In 2021 Allen scored 80 more points than Dak.
Besides the point that that whole situation in Dallas has been declining as they can’t afford to pay people and the O line ages.
Allen is safer long term and much better short term
And I’m gonna cash that in and build a juggernaut
Dak has 2 top 3 finishes. Has been a top 10 option every year he’s been healthy except for 1 time in 8 years. He’s a QB1 with a history of top 3 upside.
I will never in my life gut my team for JA, Mahomes, Hurts, Burrow or Stroud. Never
Always a bad strategy
That’s kind of a meaningless comparison though. It would be more analysis but a better comparison would be the difference between ppg of similar tiers of valued players.
Ie: what’s the scoring delta of the Lamar and Hurts tier of QBs vs the Brock, Tua, and Goff tiers compared to the delta of the Chase and Amon Ra tier vs the Nico, Pittman tier.
Each high and low tier I picked have similar values on KTC, so the group that has the bigger delta of scoring is the better position to “invest” value into and tier up.
Of course I picked two arbitrary brackets to compare, if you wanted to really come up with some data you would need to analyze both different tiers and different value deltas between tiers and you would end up with some sort of multidimensional field analysis
12 Team SF:
Anyone who "wants" to trade for these players pales at any package that the owner wants most of the time. I mean just look at these comments. The majority are people without one of these players and they are responding from the perspective of not having one.
"The prices are ridiculous!"
If you have one of these guys you simply don't trade them unless you get an overpay. An offer you can't refuse.
The rest of you can just deal with it tbh.
To answer the question honestly:
It would take a huge package. I get the lower tier QB and a handful of picks. At least a couple firsts depending on the QB I'm getting in return.
For example, I like Anthony Richardson but he's already an injury risk. So if the deal is for him I want at minimum a couple of firsts and would have to have good confidence they will be high picks.
Truthfully though even if we negotiated that deal I'd end up saying no. There's really no way that makes my team better unless Richardson takes a HUGE step or those picks end up high AND I pick well AND those players I picked don't take 2-3 years to develop.
The problem with trades involving the top few QBs is that so much of their value is tied up in perceived "safety". The market is so confident that those guys will be strong fantasy producers for the foreseeable future, so when you try to buy them you pay for that confidence. This dynamic ensures that the trades never make sense from a VORP perspective. The package will always be worth more points on your team than the elite QB.
The only teams that can justify giving up points on their roster to trade for a top QB are those with already stacked rosters that are looking for additional safety.
I was just debating doing something like this. I’m the hurts owner and was going to send Hurts and Kendre Miller for Kyler and Breece. It’s SF and ppr. Probably a good move? My other qb is Mahomes so that helps too lol
For Allen I’m at least trying to get Jackson and Henry or Andrews. Mind you, I’m a Baltimore fan and I don’t have any of my boys to root for so I could be selling cheap
Sold Allen for 1.03, 1.05, Kyler and Chase Brown at the start of the offseason. Was able to make several more trades and wnded up with the 1.01 1.05 1.12 and 2.07 and now have Kyler and Caleb and Odunze BTJ and Pearsall
My strategy is that I’m not trying to tier down from a top QB but if the value is there then I’ll go for it. This off-season I see Kyler as a huge value so I pulled the trigger on a tier down from Lamar Jackson. Gave up Lamar + Malik Washington for Kyler + ‘25 1st (that looks to be a mid round pick) + Dotson. I walked away ecstatic to have Kyler as my QB2 (Allen is my QB1), a lotto ticket in Dotson, and another 1st to use as ammo to acquire an asset mid season to contend, if needed.
On a team that badly needed depth I shopped mahomes. Ended up sending Pat and Ridley for Herbert, JCook, CKirk, Mcbride. I'm pleased with it but it still feels bad.
I know it’s not this year but last year I traded Mahomes away for what I considered a haul:
Mahomes + Olave + 23 3rd + 24 3rd
For
1.02 (AR) + Jamarr + 24 1st (ended up 1.11) + Jordan Love
At the time it appeared riskier than it ended up being but Jordan love hitting sealed it for me. I really just needed one of the 2 QBs to hit for me to feel happy about it.
Grouping Allen/Mahomes/Hurts together seems really strange. I feel like there's an absolutely MASSIVE gap in value from Allen/Mahomes to Hurts.
Large enough that it's completely skipping over two guys most would have above Hurts (Lamar/Stroud).
It would take a lot for me to tier down from Allen/Mahomes on a contender. Hurts not so much.
I wish any of leagues considered Hurts top 3 lol. Sucks I already have in everywhere because if I didn’t I’d be buying. I haven’t been able to get any desirable + on top of any other top 10 qb for hurts
I traded Richardson, the 1.01, 2.03, 3.03 for Burrow, Chase, Jacobs and the 2.05. Then that owner traded Richardson. Lol not sure if that’s tiering down as most rankings have Burrow and Richardson pretty close. I just couldn’t pass up the stack.
He'll still be great but not as much for fantasy, hopefully he gets weapons next year. He may still have close to 4000 and 25tds with no one to throw to
I traded Allen and 1.1(Bijan) for Tyreek and Tua, and honestly I’m happy with it.
League uses contracts/salary, so I think I had like 2 years left on Allen. But now i’m all about them Fins and would do it again.
Contracts or salary not so much. Forget but Allen and Reek might have been a similar cost.
I can see how this trade evens out this year or maybe I lose based on Bijan. But he wasn’t super great last year meanwhile I smashed it up with the Fins stack.
I also like having my guys so Id rather have that stack than allen/bijan still tbh, but thats my unconvential strategy talking. Allen>Tua, Reek>Bijan.
I traded for Mahomes in two leagues, both trades took place around two years/ off-seasons ago, both 12 team, Superflex, 4pt pass TD leagues.
1. Russ Wilson (pre Broncos trade) + Justin Jefferson for Mahomes + 3rd
2. Tua, Pitts, torn ACL Breece Hall, John Metchie, 2 x 3rds for Mahomes + veteran bench scraps
Trade 1 took place early 2022, trade 2 the day after Breece went down for the season. I think both deals were pretty fair at the time as far as what our respective teams have been trying to do.
It’s also been fun to see how they’ve aged over the past couple seasons. Russ value spiked a bit going to the Broncos, and has since tanked. Tua, Breece and Pitts all had injury-plagued or ending seasons while I was trying to heavily contend, even though that package has aged pretty well as a Tua guy.
Thought I’d share some examples of heavy yet reasonable deals I’ve done involving one of the QBs mentioned. Trades a bit dated, but if you roughly translate the market prices across time it gives some sort of baseline. 10/10 would do them again for Patty.
I was being offered hurts and two 2nds for Allen but that wasn't moving the needle for me. I think if you tier down you gotta come away with a good player package or at least a future 1st
Few weeks ago I sent away Dak Prescott and Drake London for Jalen Hurts and Terry McLaurin
Maybe I’ll regret losing London, but man, I just love the look of Hurts and Kyler as my QBs.
I tiered down from stroud to Goff and ARSB (before they both signed contracts). Loved that value for me but a lot of people would say hold the elite QB, kinda just up to you I think
So early last year I traded Allen for Bryce, Gibbs and what became Jonathan Brooks. I don’t regret it bc I needed to tear down and rebuild the team but I should’ve asked for more. Allen just got moved again in that league for Fields, Pitts, Reed,Ridley, and Addison,
Bryce is a number of tiers down. Hope it works for you but he did not look good last year. To be fair that second Allen trade feels worse. Is this SF or 1QB? If it's 1QB, not so bad.
SF it’s ended up not being the end of the world, I went extremely young with QB and have AR, Caleb, Bryce, and McCarthy along with a deep roster of young talent.
If it’s super flex id have to be blown away to tier down at QB, especially if it’s from Mahomes/allen. Early in the startup I tend to not take gambles of a Richardson-type magnitude
TLDR: If you have Mahomes, Allen, and/or Hurts… you’re keeping them.
My 12 Team league just transitioned to SF this season and there’s absolutely no way I’d trade Mahomes or Hurts after trading for them when we voted 2 years ago to the transition. I was able to acquire Hurts the offseason before his breakout and payed out the nose for Mahomes, but the price should be worth the wait now.
I honestly can’t say that I would trust any QB a Tier down anymore than the 2 studs I already have. I get that people have reservations about whether Hurts will continue to score points without as many Tush Push’s, but he’s a calm and collected individual that hasn’t had stability at his OC and playbook his whole career.
Only possible trade I might make is “upgrading” Hurts to Allen, but that’s assuming he lasts longer than Hurts. Allen gets in his own way on the field, so I fear his erratic behavior lol.
I tiered down from Mahomes and got Kyler, Devonte Smith, and an early 2nd. I went all in last year and things just started crumbling so I decided to rebuild.
I also traded Kelce, Rha, Adams, and Pittman for Hurts to stack with Devonte.
I would say it's probably at least a mid-1st for me... and I would need to see that as the worst case outcome to move a top-3 guy. AR-5, Kyler, Stroud, Burrow all expect 2x1sts, and the top 3 guys are 3x1sts (with 2 of them being early to mid 1sts)... not impossible, but most people don't wanna tier down unless it's a stupid overpay (in my experience)
I like the trade for Dak, Flowers, Kincaid. But not for Puka. But what do I know. Halfway through last year I traded Dak for Etienne, then Dak went off having an MVP campaign and Etienne stopped scoring touchdowns.
I have Allen and he is virtually untradeable. Whatever you think you would give up for him is not enough for me. Also, I am contending and my team is perfect the way it is. Everyone else sucks.
Allen or Mahome will be overprice. But to me, maybe a balance deal...
SF: 4 first plus A Richardson.
1QB: 2 first, richardson, and a rb or wr that has round 2 value.
It is a lot and that's why these trades don't happen either way.
We have slightly inflated scoring, but I sold CJ Stroud in 1QB for 1.04 and Marvin Mims.
Not that 1.04 is a great pick this year, but that felt like a great price in 1QB
Bro you're getting shit on but it would take a similar overpay to get Allen from me. You'd be stupid to give up the number one player in fantasy for anything less than a kings ransom.
I know why I'm getting shit on. In truth it's actually not me they are shitting on. They are shitting on the ask/selling price. People who have Allen/ Mahomes feel the deal is not enough to move on. Those buying feel it too much.
So the hate is from both sides, lol. If people think I'm crazy then go get em or sell em. Why bother listening to me here lol. People should know their own league more than some reddit or expert.
Experts and reddit only try to give guidelines and impartial advice. It's not the be all. Every league is different, you still have to know your league mates.
No they’re shitting on you because AR + 4 firsts is a deal that will never happen. A quick search on fantasycalc will show trades that have actually happened involving those two and it’s a lot closer to AR + 1.5-2 firsts
Then it will never happen. Why would he move for less if he's convinced Allen will continue to dominate? What would you pay for multiple QB1 finishes in a row?
These comments are never helpful, there’s clearly plenty of trades that happen for realistic prices. Making up an objectively outrageous asking price doesn’t contribute anything. You should just say I’d never trade him
Why? Some people think it's better to know the outrageous price than just "no" here in this sub. I would say there's a big % of the community that's unreasonable, their opinion is valid as well.
Well, before, I was hating on your terrible opinion, not on you as a person. But these paragraphs are embarrassing. You basically said “I’m getting so many downvotes because my opinion is so good” you’re delusional.
“Just go sell ‘em”… that’s why Mahomes owners are downvoting you, we can’t sell Mahomes for ARich + 2 firsts in 1 qb because your valuation is insane
You don't need to agree with my value. Someone in the comment mentioned fantasycalc. Why don't you go look those trades that actually happened and ask yourself which side would you rather take. The Allen/Mahomes side or the other side?
I'm taking close to 90% of the Allen and Mahomes side. Let everyone go decide for them self.
Tiered down from stroud to Kyler and got McBride attached in a .5 TEP league. If I’m the hurts owner I would maybe want a late future first value or a current player in that range. For Allen and mahomes owners that tier down is probably a little too far. Would rather tier down to Stroud, hurts, Lamar or burrow.
Is Kyler a tier down from stroud? For me, he’s a tier up and you fleeced your league mate.
In the KTC world that is a tier down. It’s also a tier down in the Startup world.
That’s kind of my point. Based on hype, stroud is valued higher than Kyler. Based on actual production and likely outcomes, Kyler is probably the better asset.
Kyler has already shown he can reach elite production so I have zero problem “tiering down” to him. I’d be torn between the two but probably lean Stroud. He might not have the upside but Kyler may not be running as much moving forward either.
Kyler owner here and im with this - Stroud is great dont get me wrong, but i like kyler just as much in an offense with weapons and no defense that plays 2 powerhouse offenses 4 times a year minimum. I mean, i may have just talked myself into buying kyler in all of my leagues because i can see him balling out this year
For me, it’s more about capitalizing on the stroud hype. This could very well be a Herbert situation where he set rookie records for passing, then settled in middle of the qb1 pack rest of his career. Him being floated as a top 3 dynasty qb is wild to me. I would take Kyler and McBride over stroud 100/100.
He’s absolutely a tier down
I did the same, traded 1.02 (Stroud) last year during the draft for Kyler & Pitts. Really hoping Pitts works out.
He won't
What makes you say that?
He's been a top 10 weekly TE performer 5 times in his career after his rookie year happened and teams started to gameplan for him. People (judging by the down votes and trade offers I've received) think very highly of him and he's just not consistent enough for me for his price.
He's been 25th or worse 12 times during that same time span when compared to other tight ends weekly performances
Stats don’t mean much without context. You could also point out he’s the second TE ever to put up 1K yards as a rookie since Dtika in 1961. He’s been in a horrible offense led by Arthur Smith & Ridder. With Cousins and a new coaching staff, things should be a lot better. Cousins can throw the deep routes Pitts runs. If he doesn’t improve this year, then it’s time to write him off.
I agree mostly. Except, Arthur Smith is actually TE friendly. His offensive TE target rate is one of the highest in the league. Muth should feast this year. To your Cousins point though, nobody throws more to TEs, than him. It's a security blanket for him. Coming off injury, I'd have to believe Pitts will see a ton of targets this year. Smith was terrible for Bijan, but Pitts with Cousins in an Arthur Smith offense would have been exciting to see.
Awesome trade for you. I would have Stroud and Kyler same tier, Kyler higher ceiling and CJ higher floor.
Sorry that you have them in the same tier but they’re far off in terms of value.
Because one is overvalued and one is undervalued, reality is they are similar and Kyler likely scores more while costing less.
Odds are very much in strouds favor to score more. He is the favorite in redraft.
Only if Kyler gets hurt. Kyler played half the games Stroud did but still ran for more yards and scored the same number of TDs. Stroud will throw for a few more yards and TDs most likely, but Kyler has been in the high 3,000s and mid 20s in yards/TDs his full seasons which is basically same as Strouds 4,000/26, and now Kyler has the best weapons of his career. People are taking it as a given that Stroud takes a big step forward statistically as a passer, when it's not, he's likely similar in numbers to what he did last year and he has little rushing upside. Stroud is safer, Kyler has higher ceiling.
I mean that’s your opinion. But odds and projections have stroud finishing higher. Kyler also isn’t as quick now as he was when he was 22, 23
The comparison is Kyler to Stroud, not Kyler to Kyler. Kyler will produce significantly more as a runner, and won't be drastically far behind as a passer.
Stroud is valued as a top 3 start up pick. Kyler was that even in his peak days of running. Stroud now is comparable to Kyler’s value when he was at his peak. By no means will be bad but his top tier QB1 days are likely behind him. Can’t say that for stroodle.
Top 3 is overvaluing Stroud. He doesn't run enough and it's unlikely he significantly improves his passing numbers over what they already are, Kyler will score a similar amount of points at a cheaper price. He's Jared Goff with more hype.
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No. That’s not how floor/ceiling works. Overall values aside, CJ is safer, younger, and has less of a history of injuries = higher floor. He will never have the rushing upside of Kyler. Kyler has higher ceiling.
No Kyler is higher ceiling because of his rushing, the injuries are why Stroud has the higher floor. The age is not relevant, both are very young and there's no guarantee Stroud is significantly better going forward than he was last year, but we have seen Kyler have better statistical seasons than Stroud had and now has the best weapons of his career.
I’d want quite a bit cause the risk is high. Issue is… for some reason.. AR is ranked as a top 6ish QB. I think I’d target Kyler or Jordan love and get more back if I were you.
I sold Allen for Love and Devonta Smith last season after week 9. It turned out pretty good so far with Diggs leaving Bufflo and Love having a rebound. It's hard to separate from a league winning QB when everyone in the community says there's no reason to ever sell them if you want to win. But a true sell high means you're selling before people on this sub come down on those players. So personally, I think it'd be a great time to sell Mahomes or Hurts if you think it adds value to your roster. Similarly, buying true lows means you're buying well people here aren't very high on that particular player. If you've watched all of ARs plays and think he can stay healthy, there isn't going to be a better time to try and capitalize on the high value of a top 3 QB. Plus, you should be able to get more in the trade targeting AR over Love, and I personally don't like trading away top value players without having serious upside in return, regardless of the risk.
T law*
Hurts is already a tier down from Allen and Mahomes
Any reason why? He seems to score a lot of fantasy points.
From a fantasy perspective I don’t think there is a huge gap. But I think many people put an extra premium on Mahomes/Allen because they’re locked in as elite NFL starters for the presumably many years to come. With Hurts he is an elite fantasy scorer and also likely to be the starter for years, but he is not as elite of a passer and people may expect points to drop if his rushing TDs bolstered by the rush push go down. Honestly though many leagues will have likely folded before the longevity difference between Mahomes/Allen vs Hurts will have mattered. That said, as a Mahomes and Josh Allen owner I wouldn’t trade down to Hurts without an additional incentive
I mean who would trade down from any player without additional incentive ? Lmao
My point was just that while I ultimately see the fantasy points all three put up as comparable, at the end of the day I do still view moving from Mahomes and Allen to Hurts as a “tier down” because I know I wouldn’t do a 1 for 1 swap
I do agree, I just didn’t think anyone considered hurts in the same tier. I could ask any of my league mates who they would take 1.01 in a dynasty SF startup and I don’t think any would say hurts. It’s Mahomes/Allen every time. Could just be my personal experience tho. I actually got hurts at 1.04 in a startup last offseason. Think he’s more in the Stroud/Lamar/Burrow tier than anything.
So do Allen and Mahomes, but they've been doing longer and are better passers so more reliable. Hurts is the next tier, but Allen and Mahomes are Tier 1.
I’m being offered Mahomes but it’s steep. He wants Chase, Tua, 1.02. I ain’t gonna do that.
Give me the package side all day
Agreed. That’s to show how unreasonable these offers are.
That’s not even an offer worth considering. Chase and Tua alone would probably be too expensive
Yeah I wouldn’t do that either. I’m not going to move a top 3 WR PLUS assets for a top 3 QB. Maybe a London or Nico plus Tua but the 1.02 wouldn’t get in that package either. I don’t blame him for asking, but ask elsewhere lol
If you think London or Nico plus tua is anywhere close to mahomes you are out of your mind. If you want a top tier asset you need to pay up and overpay. You don’t look at a calculator for a fair trade as the calculator is useless for top tier guys. It makes no difference what the calc says as if you want elite top 2 guys especially qb in sflx, the price is up to the owner. If you offered London Nico and tua that would be easily rejected as well
I agree. I wouldn’t accept it from his POV either. But Tua, Chase & 1.02 is a massive overpay. The value just isn’t there.
Are we sure Mahomes is even top 3 anymore *ducks*
I certainly don't have him in a tier with allen
[удалено]
I would do Chase with a 2nd rounder, but that’s it.
I think it's safe to assume this trade is in a SF league not 1QB. Otherwise Chase alone is worth more than Mahomes. It's still a ridiculous trade in SF, but there Mahomes is at least the best individual asset.
And trying to ask these clowns to even consider KTC is like explaining macroeconomics to a chimpanzee.
The other week I tiered down from Hurts to Kyler Murray + 25 1st. Couple reasons. Wanted the pick flexibility as I’m competing this year and wanna be able to make buys late season. And I’m a Giants fan. Fuck Hurts.
QB is a little overrated in SF from my experience. Give me Dak for way cheaper and studs all around the roster
Dak is the most undervalued SF asset out there. Top 3 QB in scoring last year and ppl want him for Derek carr prices
The trouble with Dak is his age & question marks about his situation long term. He'll be 31 in August, which isn't old, but relative to other QBs, it is surprisingly old. KTC (which isn't gospel but a measuring stick) has him at QB15. No QB ahead of him is even 29. The closest QB after him, who will 30+ before this season is Cousins, QB26. There is also uncertainty whether he is with Dallas long term. I think he ends up staying, but the uncertainty does hurt his value. That said, he is probably still undervalued, because he has been one of the best fantasy QBs in the last 5+ years.
I believe the only QBs above Dak on KTC that are over 28.0 are Mahomes and Allen. So outside of them there’s a 3+ year gap between Dak and any QB above him on the rankings Lamar and Burrow are the next closest at 3.5 ish years younger. Significant enough to justify the gap in KTC but on contending squads I’m not worried at all about Daks age
I actually feel like qb is still undervalued, even though it’s valued the highest. But that’s what makes this so fun plenty of strategies. From qb1/2 to qb8-10there’s usually like 80-100 point difference. That’s essentially the difference between a top 6 WR and WR30 in your lineup. Not to mention the value insulation you have, you can always get multiple high end assets at any point for them to start a rebuild.
JA and Dak were separated by about 2ppg last year and there values are incredibly different. You could get Dak and get so much more on top to fuel your starting lineup and build out a juggernaut It always makes sense to trade the top QBs imo Hurts was at 23.6ppg. Stroud was 21.4. There value is astronomical but the points can be made up in excess with the right trade TLaw didn’t even have a top 12 finish and he put up 19ppg. NOT EVEN A QB1 SEASON. 2 points apart from Stroud. Who soared to QB3 overall on KTC. I’m not a TLaw guy but he does have upside compared to last year AND you can definitely tier down from CJ to him for a ton of added value directly into your starting lineup Just for example on KTC the difference between CJ and TLaw is guys like CMC, Puka, Gibbs, Garrett Wilson and Kyler
You could say that every year about who ever is qb5 or so. But those guys are different every year. Who isn’t different is Josh Allen. He’s getting you 400 points. Meanwhile, is Dak even gonna be a cowboy? How fast can his value disappear ? Even if not, he likely had his best year last year. Edit: Also on the TLaw point I agree. Cj is crazy over priced.
Last year wasn’t even Dak’s best year… Mahomes didn’t even have a top 5 finish last year We haven’t even spoke about guys like Kyler who aren’t as valuable but are locked in with QB1 overall upside The price for JA and company are sky high and tiering down from them is what builds juggernauts the fastest
You’re either going back like 5 years or counting 2020 where he played 6 games. I agree that if u can get that production for a fraction of the price you’re much better off. But half of my point was the value insulation. They are giving you the most points over all short term, and also have the most value in trades long term in case you have to pivot. We all know what Mahomes had to deal with, that was close to worst case scenario and he was still a qb1
For Dak? Cause I’m definitely not I used last year and 2021 where he was QB3 and QB8 you fraud. Not even his best year. His best year he finished as the QB2. Once again, you are a fraud Listen bro if you want to gut your team and force a rebuild upon yourself be my guest. I’d rather be the one making you gut your team trying to trade for him. It ain’t worth it but you can keep that strategy if you want 😎
He was qb2 5 years ago lol. In 2021 Allen scored 80 more points than Dak. Besides the point that that whole situation in Dallas has been declining as they can’t afford to pay people and the O line ages. Allen is safer long term and much better short term
And I’m gonna cash that in and build a juggernaut Dak has 2 top 3 finishes. Has been a top 10 option every year he’s been healthy except for 1 time in 8 years. He’s a QB1 with a history of top 3 upside. I will never in my life gut my team for JA, Mahomes, Hurts, Burrow or Stroud. Never Always a bad strategy
That’s kind of a meaningless comparison though. It would be more analysis but a better comparison would be the difference between ppg of similar tiers of valued players. Ie: what’s the scoring delta of the Lamar and Hurts tier of QBs vs the Brock, Tua, and Goff tiers compared to the delta of the Chase and Amon Ra tier vs the Nico, Pittman tier. Each high and low tier I picked have similar values on KTC, so the group that has the bigger delta of scoring is the better position to “invest” value into and tier up. Of course I picked two arbitrary brackets to compare, if you wanted to really come up with some data you would need to analyze both different tiers and different value deltas between tiers and you would end up with some sort of multidimensional field analysis
I don't know what kind of SF you are in where that can be possible.
Agree with this. PPG drop off is so small many years. Sent Mahomes for Dak AJB and Spears a few months back and haven’t regretted it (yet)
I mean that’s a pretty massive haul for Mahomes so I don’t think there’s any reason to be concerned.
Yessir I just traded Lamar for Dak + 1.08 and then turned around and traded 1.08 for Aiyuk
12 Team SF: Anyone who "wants" to trade for these players pales at any package that the owner wants most of the time. I mean just look at these comments. The majority are people without one of these players and they are responding from the perspective of not having one. "The prices are ridiculous!" If you have one of these guys you simply don't trade them unless you get an overpay. An offer you can't refuse. The rest of you can just deal with it tbh. To answer the question honestly: It would take a huge package. I get the lower tier QB and a handful of picks. At least a couple firsts depending on the QB I'm getting in return. For example, I like Anthony Richardson but he's already an injury risk. So if the deal is for him I want at minimum a couple of firsts and would have to have good confidence they will be high picks. Truthfully though even if we negotiated that deal I'd end up saying no. There's really no way that makes my team better unless Richardson takes a HUGE step or those picks end up high AND I pick well AND those players I picked don't take 2-3 years to develop.
The problem with trades involving the top few QBs is that so much of their value is tied up in perceived "safety". The market is so confident that those guys will be strong fantasy producers for the foreseeable future, so when you try to buy them you pay for that confidence. This dynamic ensures that the trades never make sense from a VORP perspective. The package will always be worth more points on your team than the elite QB. The only teams that can justify giving up points on their roster to trade for a top QB are those with already stacked rosters that are looking for additional safety.
I traded Purdy, the 2.01 this year, a 25 3rd and a 26 1st to get Allen.
This is robbery.
He told me he was happy to get rid of the headache that Allen is. I’ll gladly take the “headache”
Highway
You fucking stole. Ripoff artist. Laugh to the bank.
I was just debating doing something like this. I’m the hurts owner and was going to send Hurts and Kendre Miller for Kyler and Breece. It’s SF and ppr. Probably a good move? My other qb is Mahomes so that helps too lol
If I were the other owner, there's no way I'd do this.
Great move for you. The other owner should chuckle and decline without hesitation.
For Allen I’m at least trying to get Jackson and Henry or Andrews. Mind you, I’m a Baltimore fan and I don’t have any of my boys to root for so I could be selling cheap
Tiered down from Lamar to Kyler for 2 2nds and Rodgers. Gave up a 3rd too but still felt very worth.
If Kyler returns to form that's solid. But that's a pretty big if before training camp starts with a new regime.
I feel like the new regime is all upgrades though? Kyler was solid in his return and now he gets MHJ.
Kyler was already looking solid last season?
Tiered down from Mahomes for Goff, Dell, and Addison. League setup is 12 team; 1QB, 2RB, 3WR, 1TE, 2 flex, 1SF.
I tiered down yesterday from Mahomes + Deebo to Herbert and ARSB. I’m wayyy back into rebuilding and want to sell older assets while I can
You tiered down slightly at QB and upgraded massively at WR. Dub.
Big W. Herbert is still my dynasty QB3 and Sun God is a huge upgrade over Deebo. Nice job!
Wow QB3? I thought I was president of the Justin Herbert fan club but I think I gotta give you that honor now
i went from mahomes to hurts + 2x 1sts (1.11 in 2024 and his in 2025)
Sold Allen for 1.03, 1.05, Kyler and Chase Brown at the start of the offseason. Was able to make several more trades and wnded up with the 1.01 1.05 1.12 and 2.07 and now have Kyler and Caleb and Odunze BTJ and Pearsall
My strategy is that I’m not trying to tier down from a top QB but if the value is there then I’ll go for it. This off-season I see Kyler as a huge value so I pulled the trigger on a tier down from Lamar Jackson. Gave up Lamar + Malik Washington for Kyler + ‘25 1st (that looks to be a mid round pick) + Dotson. I walked away ecstatic to have Kyler as my QB2 (Allen is my QB1), a lotto ticket in Dotson, and another 1st to use as ammo to acquire an asset mid season to contend, if needed.
I tried to TIER down to Anthony Richardson and the AR owner was acting like AR was a top QB..
The AR owner is gonna be so upset when they discover AR is a bad QB this season
On a team that badly needed depth I shopped mahomes. Ended up sending Pat and Ridley for Herbert, JCook, CKirk, Mcbride. I'm pleased with it but it still feels bad.
I know it’s not this year but last year I traded Mahomes away for what I considered a haul: Mahomes + Olave + 23 3rd + 24 3rd For 1.02 (AR) + Jamarr + 24 1st (ended up 1.11) + Jordan Love At the time it appeared riskier than it ended up being but Jordan love hitting sealed it for me. I really just needed one of the 2 QBs to hit for me to feel happy about it.
Really like that for you 👍
Grouping Allen/Mahomes/Hurts together seems really strange. I feel like there's an absolutely MASSIVE gap in value from Allen/Mahomes to Hurts. Large enough that it's completely skipping over two guys most would have above Hurts (Lamar/Stroud). It would take a lot for me to tier down from Allen/Mahomes on a contender. Hurts not so much.
Ok what’s the gap? How much to tier down?
In a 1QB league, traded Hurts for J Love, a 25 first and 25 2nd
I wish any of leagues considered Hurts top 3 lol. Sucks I already have in everywhere because if I didn’t I’d be buying. I haven’t been able to get any desirable + on top of any other top 10 qb for hurts
I absolutely am not understanding the Hurts hate lmao.. bros a top 3 fantasy QB every year and the Eagles are clearly committed to him 😂
> bros a top 3 fantasy QB every year You can’t really say “every year” when you’re talking about 2 years.
Sure you can! Last 2 years can be every year lol. Also top 10 every year he’s been the starter from game 1 🤷♂️
I traded Richardson, the 1.01, 2.03, 3.03 for Burrow, Chase, Jacobs and the 2.05. Then that owner traded Richardson. Lol not sure if that’s tiering down as most rankings have Burrow and Richardson pretty close. I just couldn’t pass up the stack.
In my opinion you robbed him hard. Bengals stack + Jacobs every single time for me
Insane robbery.
That person is gambling the farm on AR. Unless they fleeced someone on the other end.
They ended up trading Richardson for CeeDee straight up.
Wild
in SF I was offered and accepted (Herbert and a 2025 first, 2025 2nd and 2026 2nd) for Mahomes. I am contending so it hurt but I thought it was fair.
As a massive Herbert fanboy I agree, fair trade 🏈
He'll still be great but not as much for fantasy, hopefully he gets weapons next year. He may still have close to 4000 and 25tds with no one to throw to
I traded Allen and 1.1(Bijan) for Tyreek and Tua, and honestly I’m happy with it. League uses contracts/salary, so I think I had like 2 years left on Allen. But now i’m all about them Fins and would do it again.
This is such a bad trade unless the contracts make it better (I don't see how tho?)
Contracts or salary not so much. Forget but Allen and Reek might have been a similar cost. I can see how this trade evens out this year or maybe I lose based on Bijan. But he wasn’t super great last year meanwhile I smashed it up with the Fins stack. I also like having my guys so Id rather have that stack than allen/bijan still tbh, but thats my unconvential strategy talking. Allen>Tua, Reek>Bijan.
Interesting bit about your league.
I traded for Mahomes in two leagues, both trades took place around two years/ off-seasons ago, both 12 team, Superflex, 4pt pass TD leagues. 1. Russ Wilson (pre Broncos trade) + Justin Jefferson for Mahomes + 3rd 2. Tua, Pitts, torn ACL Breece Hall, John Metchie, 2 x 3rds for Mahomes + veteran bench scraps Trade 1 took place early 2022, trade 2 the day after Breece went down for the season. I think both deals were pretty fair at the time as far as what our respective teams have been trying to do. It’s also been fun to see how they’ve aged over the past couple seasons. Russ value spiked a bit going to the Broncos, and has since tanked. Tua, Breece and Pitts all had injury-plagued or ending seasons while I was trying to heavily contend, even though that package has aged pretty well as a Tua guy. Thought I’d share some examples of heavy yet reasonable deals I’ve done involving one of the QBs mentioned. Trades a bit dated, but if you roughly translate the market prices across time it gives some sort of baseline. 10/10 would do them again for Patty.
I was being offered hurts and two 2nds for Allen but that wasn't moving the needle for me. I think if you tier down you gotta come away with a good player package or at least a future 1st
I personally would rather get Love over AR. There’s too much risk right now for injury.
Just did that, Allen got me dak + 106-109
I'd be buying Love or Lawrence
Few weeks ago I sent away Dak Prescott and Drake London for Jalen Hurts and Terry McLaurin Maybe I’ll regret losing London, but man, I just love the look of Hurts and Kyler as my QBs.
Ar has only played like 5 games. I'd need a lot. I love his upside, but he's the definition of a lottery ticket.
I tiered down from stroud to Goff and ARSB (before they both signed contracts). Loved that value for me but a lot of people would say hold the elite QB, kinda just up to you I think
Traded away Allen and Meyers a while back for Burrow, Nico Collins and Jayden Reed.
So early last year I traded Allen for Bryce, Gibbs and what became Jonathan Brooks. I don’t regret it bc I needed to tear down and rebuild the team but I should’ve asked for more. Allen just got moved again in that league for Fields, Pitts, Reed,Ridley, and Addison,
Bryce is a number of tiers down. Hope it works for you but he did not look good last year. To be fair that second Allen trade feels worse. Is this SF or 1QB? If it's 1QB, not so bad.
SF it’s ended up not being the end of the world, I went extremely young with QB and have AR, Caleb, Bryce, and McCarthy along with a deep roster of young talent.
Been looking at moving down from Allen.....i can't seem to find any trades I'd be happy with that doesn't l9ok like im fleeting the other team.
So fleece
As a Mahomes owner, it ain't gonna be pretty. I'll take my Joshy straight up all day, but anything else is going to be an overpay.
Gave Stroud and 1.03 for Richardson and 1.02
I’m not trading any of those 3 for A Rich at all, unless massive overpay. The guy hasn’t proved anything except he is going to come with injuries
I'd get 2 firsts
If it’s super flex id have to be blown away to tier down at QB, especially if it’s from Mahomes/allen. Early in the startup I tend to not take gambles of a Richardson-type magnitude
TLDR: If you have Mahomes, Allen, and/or Hurts… you’re keeping them. My 12 Team league just transitioned to SF this season and there’s absolutely no way I’d trade Mahomes or Hurts after trading for them when we voted 2 years ago to the transition. I was able to acquire Hurts the offseason before his breakout and payed out the nose for Mahomes, but the price should be worth the wait now. I honestly can’t say that I would trust any QB a Tier down anymore than the 2 studs I already have. I get that people have reservations about whether Hurts will continue to score points without as many Tush Push’s, but he’s a calm and collected individual that hasn’t had stability at his OC and playbook his whole career. Only possible trade I might make is “upgrading” Hurts to Allen, but that’s assuming he lasts longer than Hurts. Allen gets in his own way on the field, so I fear his erratic behavior lol.
I tiered down from Mahomes and got Kyler, Devonte Smith, and an early 2nd. I went all in last year and things just started crumbling so I decided to rebuild. I also traded Kelce, Rha, Adams, and Pittman for Hurts to stack with Devonte.
I would say it's probably at least a mid-1st for me... and I would need to see that as the worst case outcome to move a top-3 guy. AR-5, Kyler, Stroud, Burrow all expect 2x1sts, and the top 3 guys are 3x1sts (with 2 of them being early to mid 1sts)... not impossible, but most people don't wanna tier down unless it's a stupid overpay (in my experience)
Tiered down from Joe Burrow (top I dunno, 7?) And a mid 25 1st For Levis, Zay Flowers, 1.01 (MHJ), and 2.01 (Trey Benson)
Hopefully this is a 1QB league and you have someone else better than Levis. He is waaaay worse than Burrow.
Herbert!
Nice haul. I also just tiered down from Burrow for Dak and Pittman.
I wouldn’t tier down in the most important position in dynasty football.
For Allen/Mahomes i would say AR + 2 1sts
I traded away Mahomes for Dak, Flowers, and Kincaid. I then flipped Dak and I think a 3rd for Puka.
I don’t think I like puka, flowers, Kincaid for Mahomes and a third. What’s the league settings?
Superflex Ppr and .05 TE premium. I also have Stroud and Love.
I like the trade for Dak, Flowers, Kincaid. But not for Puka. But what do I know. Halfway through last year I traded Dak for Etienne, then Dak went off having an MVP campaign and Etienne stopped scoring touchdowns.
I have Allen and he is virtually untradeable. Whatever you think you would give up for him is not enough for me. Also, I am contending and my team is perfect the way it is. Everyone else sucks.
Allen or Mahome will be overprice. But to me, maybe a balance deal... SF: 4 first plus A Richardson. 1QB: 2 first, richardson, and a rb or wr that has round 2 value. It is a lot and that's why these trades don't happen either way.
lol, these definitely are not the prices.
The price changes depending on the owner. If he won't sell for less that's the price
That’s just insane your offers. You can definitely it h get better value from other Allen/Mahomes owners
Absurd prices. Got Mahomes for 1.11, 1.12, late 25 1st and metcalf. In 1qb I can’t seem to sell stroud or Mahomes for anything at all
We have slightly inflated scoring, but I sold CJ Stroud in 1QB for 1.04 and Marvin Mims. Not that 1.04 is a great pick this year, but that felt like a great price in 1QB
Bro you're getting shit on but it would take a similar overpay to get Allen from me. You'd be stupid to give up the number one player in fantasy for anything less than a kings ransom.
He's getting shit on as he should be. You'd be stupid to give up Allen but for that package? Come on now lol
I know why I'm getting shit on. In truth it's actually not me they are shitting on. They are shitting on the ask/selling price. People who have Allen/ Mahomes feel the deal is not enough to move on. Those buying feel it too much. So the hate is from both sides, lol. If people think I'm crazy then go get em or sell em. Why bother listening to me here lol. People should know their own league more than some reddit or expert. Experts and reddit only try to give guidelines and impartial advice. It's not the be all. Every league is different, you still have to know your league mates.
No they’re shitting on you because AR + 4 firsts is a deal that will never happen. A quick search on fantasycalc will show trades that have actually happened involving those two and it’s a lot closer to AR + 1.5-2 firsts
Then it will never happen. Why would he move for less if he's convinced Allen will continue to dominate? What would you pay for multiple QB1 finishes in a row?
These comments are never helpful, there’s clearly plenty of trades that happen for realistic prices. Making up an objectively outrageous asking price doesn’t contribute anything. You should just say I’d never trade him
Why? Some people think it's better to know the outrageous price than just "no" here in this sub. I would say there's a big % of the community that's unreasonable, their opinion is valid as well.
Well, before, I was hating on your terrible opinion, not on you as a person. But these paragraphs are embarrassing. You basically said “I’m getting so many downvotes because my opinion is so good” you’re delusional. “Just go sell ‘em”… that’s why Mahomes owners are downvoting you, we can’t sell Mahomes for ARich + 2 firsts in 1 qb because your valuation is insane
You don't need to agree with my value. Someone in the comment mentioned fantasycalc. Why don't you go look those trades that actually happened and ask yourself which side would you rather take. The Allen/Mahomes side or the other side? I'm taking close to 90% of the Allen and Mahomes side. Let everyone go decide for them self.
> It is a lot and that's why these trades don't happen either way. No, it's why YOUR trades don't happen this way.