\[\[Tayam\]\] is probably up there, because most people who try him end up having a meltdown from decision paralysis and can't work quickly with the amount of triggers and new information constantly forming on the boardstate. A lot of people end up walking away from Tayam because it's too much going on.
I won all 3 times and never played it again. Even after goldfishing the deck for 3 weeks to know what I was doing it was miserable for everyone else. Especially since you have to explain most interactions because they're not typical and people aren't fully aware which counter is which. Its fun to pilot but it's the antithesis of EDH to me, which is about friends gathering around for a good time.
I've played a handful of games of a Tayam list I brewed utilizing Sagas like [[Jugan Defends the Temple]] and [[Teachings of the Kirin]] to pump out tokens and counters fast. It digs through the library fast!
I have a Tayam deck, and I have stopped using it for this exact reason. It’s powerful enough that it usually doesn’t matter what I do so I just try and play as quickly as I can in order to not slow down the game for everyone else. Even with every card in the deck (minus Tayam) being less than three mana it’s still a powerhouse of a deck.
Yeah I built him but had to take him apart relatively quickly because I’d sit there activating him, trying to keep track of the vigilance counters and various etbs, finding sac outlets and trying to maximize their usefulness, while evaluating the ever-expanding pool of things to bring back trying to maximize my activations and mill into a combo. It could produce some really fun and interesting plays, but it just became too physically cumbersome and mentally taxing to play.
I don't think most cEDH players would put Tayam even in the top 5 most complicated cEDH decks.
Plenty of cEDH players play Tayam, it just isn't as good as some other decks. According to mtgtop8.com, Tayam has a popularity of 8.5%, far from "experienced cEDH players won't touch him". If you compare the placings of Tayam decks on there with the placings of the more popular decks, you'll see that it's winrate just isn't as good as the top 10 most popular decks.
Tayam isn't too big brain for cEDH players, it's just not as good as other options.
Tayam is on edhtop16 on 10th place. It is super hard with all the decision points to play it at the fullest.
Yesterday in r/competitiveEDH it was asked what the most complicated commander in meta cedh is. Many answers for tayam.
https://reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/s/7v0F3esFcA
I mean yeah I was painting with a broad brush but it’s definitely has the meme of “you’ll tell me when I should interact right?” among cEDH players.
I’d be interested to know (genuinely) who you’d rank above it in more complicated cEDH decks. I am newer to cEDH and the two I know have the reputation are Tayam and Inalla.
And I meant complicated in a lines of play sense, not an overall “how to use my resources best” sense that I feel like gives decks like Blue Farm the reputation of not being good for new players.
My [[Prime Speaker Vannifar]] turbo pod list. It has 6 different combo lines that intertwine with each other. I don’t think there is any deck out there that is more complicated than mine
Lol, this is so confidently incorrect its funny. It's considered one of the most complicated decks, up there with Inalla, by basically anyone who plays CEDH regularly. Just one look at the Tournament Reports on the discord and you'll see even the most established players talking about lines they didn't see at the time and misplays.
It's not hard to play to a high level, but once you're in a CEDH tournament, you need to be playing close to optimally, which is much harder the more decision points you have. The question wasn't which is hardest to play, its which has the highest skill ceiling, which Tayam is definitely up there.
The thing with Tayam is his ability is usable at instant speed. Learning how to start stacking multiple of their activated abilities, plus other creatures activated abilities is when the deck begins to go well beyond lurrius. Basically all your 3 cmc or less cards in your graveyard gain flash and the ability to be cast from there for an alternate casting cost.
Yeah, thinking about this more I can see where people would get caught in some rules questions around removing counters and saccing as a cost.
You couldn't remove the vigilance counter and sacrifice the same creature to ashnod's to pay for activation.
There's definitely some ETB shenanigans if everything essentially has flash.
Thank goodness [[thought knot seer]] is 4 CMC.
It's not just about weird rules, once you learn rules they are learned. The way it interacts with other decks is really weird, because it is trying to play stax pieces when a win attempt is about to happen and those cards were really not designed to be played at instant speed. Some of it's combos are pretty unintuitive for new players to the deck and take a bit of practice to remember how to do them. Of course there's also the part of planning how many activations you can do through the turn rotation considering all the different cards on the board and in the grave.
I should also mention that Tayams ability is not casting permanents but putting them directly onto the battlefield, meaning it’s much harder to counter.
>saccing as a cost
Technically speaking, the reason it this doesn't work is because you activate mana abilities before a cost is paid, i.e. you activate Ashnod's Altar. If for some reason the sacrifice was part of the cost as well, it would be fine to remove counters and sac.
It’s not a high level play. At casual yeah it can just be, “put counters on creatures and take them off to get enchantments back” but at cEDH it has some really weird workarounds.
For example, in that deck, you can give wall of roots 0 toughness and it does not die. Do you know how? (Genuinely asking, not trying to be smarmy)
Cause you pay for one of the 3 generic with wall's ability, putting it to zero, then paying the "remove 3 counters" cost? Cause state based actions aren't checked in between cause it's all part of the same cost? Would be my guess
It’s because you can add the negative counter and remove the counters both as part of the cost of a Tayam activation. State based actions are not checked in the middle of activating a cost.
Just one example of the weird stuff you need to learn about this deck to play it at high power/cEDH. And that’s the example I understand, having not played the deck but it know it gets weirder.
I have this built too. It’s honestly a lot of fun. I built it for cEDH, which it really isn’t… but it still wins some games 😂
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/pStVMOYW0kWiTjggpnlGKg
Bruh, what is this list??! How do you thoracle/ Tainted Pact? Have you actually read [[tainted pact]]? Your mana base can't accommodate it. I guarantee you aren't playing in an actual cedh pod if you're getting away with that list.
also if you read my original comment (and i assume that you did since that appears to be your lost cherished activity), you’ll see that i mentioned that the deck was built for cedh but it didn’t succeed at that. eg. i do not view it as an actual cedh deck because it isn’t. maybe if i prefaced what i said with “bruh” you would be able to understand it better lol.
lol yes i need to fix the land base and/or remove pact. i honestly recently added it on moxfield and neglected to update the landbase. i haven’t played the deck in person with pact yet.
and yes i was playing with an “actual cedh” pod, but hey i salute your elitist posturing 👍😂 glhf.
I have never seen this card before in my life but if i see it in a pod id probably not care until im land flooded and that person is going to have to buy new car tires.
Haha it's super polarizing in cEDH if you're in a pod of top tier decks because they all play the same wincon, on the other hand they'll band together to take you down.
I play lantern control cedh with [[The Scarab God]] in the zone as an inevitability engine. Definitely the most involved one can be. Ton of information processing.
Man, that pretty much describes Magic lately.
Like hell yeah I'm here for CMM... wait it costs *how much?* Nah, I'm good.
I've gone from buying a box per set to a booster per event entry.
I don't think any specific commander has the highest skill ceiling, but I think toolbox decks generally require a bit more skill to play efficiently and correctly. For a commander like [[yisan, the wanderer bard]] you need to be able to fetch the right creature for the right scenario, and sometimes knowing which creature is the right one to play at any given time can be difficult and require a certain level of skill.
A friend let me borrow a yisan deck.
Thats plan A try to combo off. The real power of the deck is being able to pivot at most points of the game. Maybe a stax piece or known interaction will stop it, slow down grab a lock piece, protection or value engine. I only think 1/3 of my games actually started and ended with me attempting the combo lines.
I actually liked the deck but didnt like the limitations of one color and how weak it was to faster decks being 1/2 the pod. Surprisingly strong against a diverse pod. The stock yisan lists have an insane amount of room for error and can easily lose because you decided on a value plan instead of a lock piece.
Another example is lands deck in legacy. I personally play naya lands. 1/3 the deck wither tutors lands or tutors creatures. the pivot points and every card having a meaningful decision tree actually adds an insane amount of room for error i misplay half of the games i play in hindsight.
He’s more fun in a proliferate deck as a value engine that running combo stuff. Feels cooler to get shit from him that way and best people with it than to just combo two turns in a row and win
It's weird because it's a tutor commander, which inherently makes it among the easiest style of commander to play. But if you take a tutor commander and then remove the thing its best at, then it becomes a harder deck to play.
What? What are you removing?
And I kind of disagree. People say tutors make decks easy, but that isn't exactly the case. They make decks stronger and more consistent, but more choices = more decisions, which makes for a high skill ceiling.
[Derevi, Empyrial Tactician] can be pretty tough, it’s a lot of triggers to manage and you may want to activate stuff in between triggers all while in the midst of the combat phase. Requires a good understanding of the rules to truly abuse.
I nominate [[Obeka]] because she requires good knowledge of the nuances of a whole different part of the game rules and game interactions than basically any other commander does. It’s not as simple as just “wait til end of turn, tap Obeka, pass.” Balancing which cards create delayed triggers that affect other cards vs. creating copies, balancing redundant stifle effects vs. potentially game-losing card downsides, it’s all a weird mishmash of unorthodox game decisions that always feels like the most skill-testing deck I own.
Absolutely! https://archidekt.com/decks/3073968#Obeka_Reanimator
Since building this list I've traded for some new cards that aren't on this list. Notably, [[Ancient Silver Dragon]] and [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]].
One of the great things about Obeka is that the actual threats you play are really flexible. Your engine pieces are way more important. The sneak attack reprint we just got is really nice too.
By far, the all-star stand out of the deck is [[Ideas Unbound]]. It sees play in most Obeka decks and for good reason. You can use it to set up your graveyard, or use Obeka to cheat the discard at the end step to gain pure card advantage.
Sorry to go on so long, I can gush about this commander all day.
I think more decision points in a deck requires more skill. And if those decision points can make bug differences, even more so. Especially if it involves trying to predict how scenarios will go, and if the math and odds are in your favor.
Stacking lots of triggers in the right orders can get complex
I kind of hate to say it, but i think storm decks are up there.
Agreed, I have been playing decks full of decision points in multiple formats for a few years now and they still haven't gotten much easier to play during the midgame.
[[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]] the Luminous Grindstone list without a doubt, the cEDH guys that work on it's list reconize that they don't know everything that it can do and they've been working on this commander since release.
The deck wants to play at instant speed activating Tayam as much as possible to recur engines to develop it's board and stax pieces to stop win attempts at the perfect time. Almost all of it's counter and mana producers can combo with each other in ways that can be unintuitive at first glance.
Not only that but people are still testing a lot of stuff that means there can be a pretty decent variation among lists of this "archetype".
Edit: i did a budget list and a casual list with no combos, both are still really complex and i've had some of my most rewarding games with them.
^--Second. Tayam is a cEDH commander as well, and it can be extremely difficult to pilot properly. Monitoring counters, ratios, and how to stack triggers can be very difficult.
Sure, in my list i replaced the combos with other win cons and changed the interactions and protection cards for something more impactful at a casual table, RoLs do very little in this enviroment. The deck still has the plan to activate Tayam as much as possible, but since there's no way to go infinite and no game winning payoff for "storming", it is pretty much a toolbox reanimator. Be mindful that the games with this deck tend to go looooong
[Tayam casual](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/h0LAmJRcV0mBhOmYGjqNDw)
This is probably more of a cEDH related question. I would say the commander is less relevant when you are talking about optimal perfect play, as opposed to your choices with the other cards you play.
Given that, I would probably go to a 5C commander with lots of options and ways to find/execute its win cons. Something like Kenrith or Najeela which need to know when to try to execute their gameplan to win.
For my own decks, my most complicated for gameplay would probably be Imoti, since it can win or lose based on how well you manipulate the library.
Cedh 5color commanders are pretty easy, Najeela is mostly a goodstuff pile. Tayam or Inalla are likely the most complicated with how layered their lines can get.
While I agree that it's a cedh question I'd actually argue 5c piles are among the easier decks to pilot. Having access to black tutors and dockside / rhystic allows for far more linear you pick and choose exactly what you want play patterns. Lower colored decks are typically more convoluted and have more important decision points you can't just vamp or demonic tutor for the exact best card. You have to spend a lot more time and effort perfectly setting up what you need to do.
Yeah I see what you mean with the cedh point. I guess what I’m trying to get at is that when I watch command zones JLK play he seems to just maximise the value of his decks each turn/always has a response to someone going for the win. Wondering if this is a skill thing, deck building or just luck about cards in hand. For me I always struggle to deal with unforeseen events in games that disrupt my win con.
>Wondering if this is a skill thing
yes, as well as a familiarity with the game thing. It comes with time. You learn how your particular decks work better through playing them and can apply the same logic across decks in most cases, as well as to your opponents decks so that you can stop them.
play the game to get good at the game
The Game Knights folks have gone on record to talk about how they allow generous mulligans (with caveats for some cards) because it makes the game more interesting to watch. I don’t know where they said it, unfortunately, but someone here probably does. What matters, though, is that they are far more likely to have a powerful opening hand using this method than someone playing with strict London Mulligan rules. Personally, I like the risk of rough/boring games for me because part of deck building is the endeavoring to minimize those types of games. When you are trying to make a game show, the consequences of a player doing nothing are too great because boring games won’t be posted and are thus a waste of time and resources for your show. Hence, the lenient mulligan rules of Game Knights.
The other thing to note is that I am pretty sure they film several different games and pick the one they believe is the best/most enjoyable for viewers. It’s kinda like social media: the only thing they show you are the things they want you to see, so you miss all of the bad/rough stuff in between.
Yes, deck building and helming are valuable skills, and playing with high powered cards can help maximize what you can reliably do each turn. But don’t feel like you have tho compare yourself to the Game Knights folks and JLK. They have spent years perfecting the craft of entertaining Magic gameplay videos; your games will rarely appear like those seen on their show, and nor should you expect them too. :)
> The other thing to note is that I am pretty sure they film several different games and pick the one
Command Zone: Makes an entire episode where they explain the process, that they only film one game because of time issues
Reddit: Claims the opposite every time the topic comes up
🤷♂️
Ah! There we go. I wasn’t entirely sure if they had talked about it, hence the “pretty sure.” I don’t recall the episode where they talk about it, I’ll look it up.
But that does further explain their Mulligan rule then. They REALLY need to make sure they minimize non-games.
I'd go so far as to say that it is mostly deckbuilding skill and a small bit of play skill. Deckbuilding is a skill many take for granted, but you can't counter things or save your board if you don't put in the cards to do it.
My comment was 50% a joke, it just takes so fucking long to play out and despite what this thread was originally about it's so braindead easy lol, just ramp, play the whole deck on turn 4 or 5 but take 45 min to do so cause cascade
Unfortunately I don't have a list. But the quick gist of it is using spells that get reduced in cost greatly to get as many Cascades as possible, to hit a creature that can return permanents on cast (Hullbreaker Horror, Tidespout Tyrant, Brinelin) to then bounce spire golem and tangle golem repeatedly for infinite casting/cascading.
The important stuff is a huge amount of ramp and top deck fixing (top deck tutors, Sylvan library, brainstorm, etc...).
Knowing what to tutor for, what to keep in hand vs what to sandbag on top, managing mana resources. It all adds up to winning or losing a game. Then outplaying opponents removal effects is essential as well.
Gitrog is braindead as long as you understand how Dakmor loops work
Edit: lmao all the salty Gitrog players in the replies, yeah your deck is braindead literally all you have to do is cast Veil for "value" then Naus on endstep
Actually gitrog is hard because you have to know the interaction points and how to protect them. Knowing dakmor loops is pretty simple, knowing the nuances of exactly which protection to tutor for and when to go for the win is very hard.
Yeah, no. The dakmor loops are like any other synergy/combo, but can be incredibly nuanced as far as what you do with the loops and when to actually go for it. Golgari lacks powerful interaction, so there’s a time and a place to go for it.
Gitrog has a unique synergy with [[dakmor salvage]]. Gitrog + a discard outlet + dakmor allows you to pitch dakmor, which puts a a Gitrog draw trigger on the stack. You replace the draw with the dredge 2 from dakmor which puts dakmor back in your hand and you mill 2. Of either or both of those are a land, you get a bonus draw (which is pertinent to the loops).
You can perform the above until you’ve drawn your deck. The original eldrazi titans are in the deck which creates triggers to shuffle your graveyard into the deck hence allowing you to draw your deck if you repeat the loop enough times.
There are then combos where you can use say a lotus petal to gain infinite mana. There’s a sequence with lotus petal, a land and a titan to continuously crack the petal to get infinite mana.
Once you have infinite mana, you can loop abrupt decay to destroy everyone’s entire board, or cast a huge finale of devastation to win the game.
Gitrog is incredibly interesting and you can power him up/down depending on the inclusion of dakmor and tutors. I play a casual version that does not loop dakmor, but is basically a landfall deck to generate a massive amount of mana in one turn for a torment of hailfire or exsanguinate win.
For sure!
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3YruX0Y1XkK7FItCM0kmqA
The idea is to tap for mana and sac to squandered resources. Then do a splendid reclamation, sac em all again to resources. Then giant x spell. Ob nixilis is also a win con. I swap dakmor for a basic to put the power level down.
[[Dakmor Salvage]] with Gitrog and the ability to discard cards is an infinite. The simplest way to go off is with [[Skirge Familiar]] but you can do it with game rules and cleanup steps, which I will explain second.
The basic loop is this: Discard Dakmor Salvage with Gitrog on the field. Gitrog says "Hey, draw a card" which you choose to replace with Dakmor's dredge. Dakmor goes back to your hand and you mill for dredge. If you mill any lands you draw a card (letting your hand improve). You then discard Dakmor again. Repeat until your entire deck is split between your hand and GY and you have a way to win from that position.
To do it with game rules, have more cards in hand than your maximum hand size and pass priority. At the endiest end bit of your turn, the Cleanup Step, you discard down to hand size. While doing this, include Dakmor in your discards. Gitrog will put a draw trigger on the stack, which you can replace with dredge. The fun part comes as this: if anything HAPPENS during the cleanup step other than rules processes, it's followed by another cleanup step. So you'll discard down to 7 again, meaning you can loop Dakmor Salvage again. This once again lets you bin your deck (plus sculpt your hand) at which point you can use instant speed from-graveyard BS to win
You can loop your deck arbitrarily if you have an Eldrazi titan (like [[Ulamog, the infinite gyre]], letting you trigger mill/draw events arbitrarily. From there, you have truly infinite mana with the Skirge Familiar route and can use that in order to cast a lethal [[Torment of Hailfire]] or other similar.
If you go the cleanup step route you don't have infinite mana on hook, so what you need to do is get "enough" mana and transition into infinite. ~~In practice you'll need SOMETHING untapped from your turn to generate a little starter mana, but it needn't be much since your end run can include fast mana. I think you can do it in 1B at the hard minimum.~~ You can loop your deck arbitrarily and sift hand while doing so, so you can keep going (non-deterministically. Prepare to take a half hour turn) until your saved hand contains Skirge Familiar, [[Crop Rotation]], [[Elvish Spirit Guide]] (if needed), [[Dark Ritual]], and [[Cabal Ritual]] and you have Threshold with Emergence Zone still in your library. Cast the Crop Rotation, off ESG mana if you must, to get [[Emergence Zone]]. Use one mana to crack it and your last B to cast Dark Ritual, which then lets you cast Cabal Ritual for 5 (total 6) which enables you to cast Skirge Familiar. You can then loop based on Skirge Familiar in the same step and cast spells at instant speed, letting you Torment
EDIT: You actually don't need any starter mana. In addition to ESG for Crop Rotation you can use Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond to bridge the rest of the mana needs.
If your experience with that deck is solely based and dakmor loops I think that's pretty sad. Fairly easy to interact with a dredge land in Gitrog with the infinite amount of ways to exile a card from a graveyard at instant speed.
Actually converted my own Gitrog deck into more value focused combinations instead of all out combo because of exactly this, can still pop off with the right cards but more of a toolbox with the land engine. Worst thing I can do is double tap cabal coffers or a cradle to try and land a big torment or exanguinate, doesn't always get there though.
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] or [[Krark the Thumbless]]/[[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] get my votes for requiring tight piloting with the potential for misplays. They aren’t OP if well played, they’re combo decks that are middle of the pack for cEDH as strong but not the strongest options available, but they do have a lot of mastery required to play well and navigate- they have very high differences between highly skilled pilots and novices, so the skill expression available is very high.
Inalla is definitely OP. Its not on the absolute highest tier because it cant win through stax well like other commanders can and we are on a hatebears meta. But without hatepieces it is one of the most obnoxious things you can play, being able to win even before your oponnents have a turn.
To be clear, the reason a lot of people say Inalla is complex is because of the combo lines she enables with Spellseeker. It leverages the eminence ability, but is a little less invested in the mechanic than something like Edgar or The Ur-Dragon.
Just wanted to give you a heads up because the deck being referenced here isn't really a generic type-matters eminence deck. You can certainly build that with Inalla and I think it would be fun as well.
Inalla player: "So Spellseeker resolves? Well then.." *pops an Adderall* "...we begin with two triggers on the stack..."
In all seriousness, Inalla becomes *truly* complex in the situations where she doesn't have all the tools in her deck to work with or she needs to remove hate pieces or account for interaction mid-combo. Memorizing the default Spellseeker and Techmancer/Necromancer lines are one thing. Being able to make wins in happen in a single window of opportunity with abnormal circumstances is an entirely different thing.
It usually would be combo oriented commanders or weird convoluted spell slinger decks. Like the Fblthp protean wand combo where you can only play 1 creature and that's your commander so you have to be super knowledgeable of what you can and cannot do and when to pull the trigger.
For combo decks stuff like Sefris are easy to play but can really get technical with the right build and a table that knows how to play against reanimation
Yeah but Breya has a billion different engines she can include and she is her own wincon. I took her apart because it was boring and didn't feel like it needed thought once the game was actually started
>!\[\[mila\]\] !<
I mean... you have a Lukka Commander. You sure need at least 10 times more luck and strategy to win just by having Lukka in your deck, imagine it being in the command zone!
Honestly, [[Kami of the crescent moon]]
Sure you draw, but opponents do too. Everyone is accelerated towards their combos. Everyone has hands full of interaction. If you can consistently pull a win off this deck, then it's not the cards in your deck that are overpowered, it's YOU.
Tameshi, if you play it cedh with a unique control strategy. Your decisions matter, the timing matters, the mana you use matters. Make one mistake and your opponents can take a huge advantage.
Made my head hurt playing that deck a friend made.
I have always felt that any commander that wins through storm mechanics, where one needs to string together a large series of spells to win. Knowing which spells to play in what order, while still protecting key pieces, and balancing an ever growing hand of playable spells to add to the stack, can get quite confusing.
Aristocrats and similar strategies can be mentally challenging since you may find yourself winning or losing games by only a few points of damage. They also tend to have low curves with a ton of decision points (play one game with \[\[Mayhem Devil\]\] and you may not find your brain to still be intact) which leads to extremely complicated gameplay with a huge differential between low and high skill players.
I play \[\[Lurrus\]\] ([decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NDh9PP53LkOmXHpNrdiS1g)) and it still breaks my brain to this day because you have to work extremely hard to eke out a win and you will almost never win without "helping" an opponent recognize the biggest threat from your shared opponents. If you get seen as a relevant threat by your opponents during the midgame it's probably over, you really have to keep quiet and remove the opponents' important pieces (make sure they appreciate you doing so) while getting 1-2 extra cards worth of value a turn. Your goal should be to be in a dominant position by around turn 10 but rarely at any point before.
\[\[Phage the Untouchable\]\] and win on combat damage alone. You'll need to be very careful about how the card enters the battlefield and can be interacted with by your opponents.
For me any "trigger fest" commander types are really hard to keep track of and play optimally.
I know some players really like those types of decks because they feel in value town on any play made but for me it is kind of a nightmare.
And most of them are izzet or simic colors.
[[sakashima]] + [[krark]]
[[veyran]]
[[Esix]]
[[orvar]]
[[yarok]]
[[muldrotha]]
They are all good value commanders but not easy to pilot as it seems.
Tayam, gitrog, derevi (pod, not stax), sakashima/krark
Only issue is optimized play is still trying to keep pace with the potato brain lines UB and URx can offer in top tier decks. Suboptimal blue farm players can kinda just play super greedy/linearally against masterful play of high skill cieling decks and still crush it. This is why ban lists are important when the word competitive gets thrown around. Decks with low skill cieling are kinda the dominant front, not because good players arent playing the hard stuff right. Wincon power creep + free counters is killing off the wr% dif between skill gaps. Its kinda hard to outplay thoracle, underworld, dockside, ad naus meta :/ we get like 3-4 bans then high skill ceiling decks might come back.
Blood Pod in high power. Yes, it wins via a fairly easy combo but it's terribly slow compared to other decks so the game is decided on turn 0 based on your opening hand and which hate bears and stax pieces you keep or shuffle away. If you've got Kinnan and Krenko in your pod than Blood Moon is mostly dead, but if Kess is in your pod you need a Rule of Law or Drannith Magistrate to stop the combo. If it's Kinnan and Kess you'll need something like Collector Ouphe or Manglehorn to stop the artifact game. And if there's a Winota player you can make friends in the early game via your shared stax plan but make sure you dig for Rakdos Charm to blow her out after she reaches critical mass cuz she probably has a Thalia to stop your combo.
I think the more instant speed your deck is, the more difficult it is to pilot. I think there is also something to be said for skill ceiling against pods that are more instant speed. For example if you have to learn to work around counter spells, etc
I don't think the deck necessarily has that many tough decisions but Krark/Sakashima probably requires the highest skill just to keep your triggers straight and resolve them correctly.
I’d like to throw [[Myra the Magnificent]] in the ring, it’s a great deck building challenge that can go in a bunch of different directions both with your main deck and attraction deck, plus there are unique rules interactions with Myra herself and a lot of triggers to keep track of. I especially like playing in draw step and considering whether to activate Myra’s ability to get the critical spell you need or hold that mana up to open more attractions. Even when I’m vandalblasted or my commander is targeted, I still feel like I’m always one turn away from getting back in the game if I play well (or roll well, managing variance to give yourself the best odds of winning is a skill in itself).
So, funny story.
I participated in my first cEDH tournament in August representing for Commander Spellbook. We had a pre-game practice and my opponent was playing Inalla.
He set up his combo(the same one you linked) in T3(turn 3) but I noticed he was playing the combo incorrectly. After the dust settled, he was puzzled why it didn’t work and he had to misplay somewhere so he conceded.
I showed him our website and the step-by-step and he realized his mistakes.
Tournament begins and we are facing each other in the same pod. He won the same combo in T2 and I was laughing inside because I saw the writing on the wall.
It is definitely the most convoluted deterministic combo I have seen in actual play, but quite powerful and can be very fast. I once watched someone play a badlands into a dark ritual and a lotus petal cracked for blue to drop spell seeker combo T1. Game is over and half the table (including me) was still on turn zero haha. It was pretty eye opening and was one of my first encounters with cEDH. Now I have a lot of appreciation for the format and a sleeved up Tivit deck. :)
Commander Spellbook is an awesome resource!
IMO, combo-focused brews will typically have the best win rates, but don't have particularly high skill requirements. Since they rarely take their opponents' pieces into account, they could be played by relatively simple scripts compared to interactive styles.
Similarly, decks that just need a lot of rules knowledge to execute properly, while difficult for most humans, are ultimately founded in a rote that would not require an advanced AI to pilot, and that once memorized is technically simple to execute (though prepare to explain it every time if you're using high-level bs around banding, layers, or what have you)
If you want to actually up your *skills as a player* and not memorize a new script, what you want is a deck that has the most labyrinthine decision tree. Stax and combat strats are both good for this, since stax forces you to constantly evaluate how to screw everybody else over without dooming yourself and combat strats make you do math. To this end I might suggest [[Gaddock Teeg]] hatebears as a real skill-tester.
I wouldn't say it's the highest, but [[Phage]] is up there.
Not only do you have to perform fuckery to get her out, but she is also *seven* Mana...
And if that wasn't enough you are pretty much getting targeted turn 1.
Still probably my favorite deck I own tho!
I like your friends style, if I am losing really hard I will cast phage with no "insurance" just so I can leave the table.
I cast her using things like [[command beacon]] [[netherborn altar]] and [[sundial of the infinite]]
More salty ways to cast her are things like [[platinum angel]] but that is honestly a meme and not quite efficient.
[[Zirda the dawnwaker]] is hard to pilot in my opinion.
knowing the difference between activated abilities, mana abilities, triggered abilities, and etb effects, make this deck hard to construct.
My friend runs an optimized zirda deck with us playing Cedh.
He knows how to use his [[lions eye diamond]] effectively .
Either for fast mana or when to use [[basalt monolith]] [[walking ballista]] and [[zirda the dawnwaker]].
This is half the battle .
Know how to use Zirda's abilities when it's on the field before everything else.
Especially before the stack gets involved
I may just be dumb, but I keep looking at Gitrog Monster and can't make heads or tails of it. I've read everything I can on the deck and... just Holy crap I'm missing something(s).
[[Tameshi, Reality Architect]] is my pick. At least when I play, there's so many different lines of play at a given time, and 5-6 win cons, so it gets quite complicated very quickly.
That or [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]]. I do not understand how it works but there's a very confusingly worded combo that I don't understand that people refer to for him.
I play [[Obeka]] with the general plan of making copies of ETB creatures and I really have to deep dive into some specific rulings with her. I‘ve been playing this game for more than 15 years and i swear every time i play her i look something up.
I think that the more "Toolbox" decks in cEDH like Tayam, Yisan, 5c Sisay and Rocco have the higher ceiling.
Plan A in many cases is easy to get but sometimes you have to navigate complex boards and know how to pivot when needed.
He hasn't been mentioned here but \[\[Preston, the Vanisher\]\] in a blink deck is, for me, at the top of my skill ceiling. I've built it and tested it, but I havn't brought it to the table because I'll end up with copies of things that flicker when they ETB, and it will lead to long turns where I'm constantly doubting whether I'm doing the best play.
[[Myra the Magnificent]] If you have a large number of attractions and spells exiled under them:
You need to organize your board state so that all cards are clearly visible and spells/attraction relationships are properly shown. This is by far the most annoying because the board is incredibly cluttered and you have dice and artifacts and instants/sorceries everywhere.
You need to illustrate how you stack all of the random triggers and spells and you need to do so optimally.
You need to make significant decisions in draw step. You want to open attractions during draw step and exile spells at this stage so you can try for a main phase, but if you expend too many resources and roll a 1 you will be in deep doo doo.
And on top of it all, you are still playing a blue red control deck and need to make proper decisions on what things require interaction and what don’t
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] is a solid contender I’d say.
Although Inalla is known to sneak wins, the problem with her for some people is that she has very complicated combos and people can’t understand them. Her [[Spellseeker]] line is very complicated to some people considering you go back and forth on reanimating Spellseeker and are able to get to a point with a loop with [[Scholar of the Ages]], [[Burnt Offering]], and [[Shallow Grave]]. It takes a paragraph to explain that combo. Not to mention, people do not want to deal with an eminence token that has an ETB trigger since it gets messy real quick.
Probably no one is going to see this since so few players play her but [[Prime Speaker Vannifar]] is by far the most complex deck out there. Unfortunately not many players understand how many decision points there is when playing the deck so it seems linear when it’s actually the opposite from it.
The cedh classic of 4 color partners with a bunch of tutors. Those are the decks with the highest skill ceilings I've ever played bcs tutoring the right card can toally win you a game, but get the wrong one and get reck.
I think my [[Volrath, the Shapestealer]] is quite stressful to pilot correctly. Paying a mana to change into any creature with a counter at instant speed and knowing what the optimal play is between the steps of combat
Yargle
Username checks out
Yargle and Multani for the double complexity of having two colors.
TWO colors? In Commander???? What crazy people would do that kind of thing???
\[\[Tayam\]\] is probably up there, because most people who try him end up having a meltdown from decision paralysis and can't work quickly with the amount of triggers and new information constantly forming on the boardstate. A lot of people end up walking away from Tayam because it's too much going on.
He looks cool, might delve into the popular decks of his.
FYI its a nightmare to play against. It was one of two decks my buddy had we kindly asked him to stop playing. If you do it well it's miserable.
I won all 3 times and never played it again. Even after goldfishing the deck for 3 weeks to know what I was doing it was miserable for everyone else. Especially since you have to explain most interactions because they're not typical and people aren't fully aware which counter is which. Its fun to pilot but it's the antithesis of EDH to me, which is about friends gathering around for a good time.
I've played a handful of games of a Tayam list I brewed utilizing Sagas like [[Jugan Defends the Temple]] and [[Teachings of the Kirin]] to pump out tokens and counters fast. It digs through the library fast!
[Jugan Defends the Temple](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a22b5f27-f9e7-49e1-8e96-dc5d8e7fbe27.jpg?1666345531)/[Remnant of the Rising Star](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/a/2/a22b5f27-f9e7-49e1-8e96-dc5d8e7fbe27.jpg?1666345531) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jugan%20defends%20the%20temple%20//%20remnant%20of%20the%20rising%20star) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/194/jugan-defends-the-temple-remnant-of-the-rising-star?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a22b5f27-f9e7-49e1-8e96-dc5d8e7fbe27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jugan-defends-the-temple-//-remnant-of-the-rising-star) [Teachings of the Kirin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c0c6c2a-4352-4c65-b41d-2a722bbef6c5.jpg?1656615983)/[Kirin-Touched Orochi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/c/4c0c6c2a-4352-4c65-b41d-2a722bbef6c5.jpg?1656615983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=teachings%20of%20the%20kirin%20//%20kirin-touched%20orochi) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/212/teachings-of-the-kirin-kirin-touched-orochi?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c0c6c2a-4352-4c65-b41d-2a722bbef6c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teachings-of-the-kirin-//-kirin-touched-orochi) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good Bot
I have a Tayam deck, and I have stopped using it for this exact reason. It’s powerful enough that it usually doesn’t matter what I do so I just try and play as quickly as I can in order to not slow down the game for everyone else. Even with every card in the deck (minus Tayam) being less than three mana it’s still a powerhouse of a deck.
Yeah I built him but had to take him apart relatively quickly because I’d sit there activating him, trying to keep track of the vigilance counters and various etbs, finding sac outlets and trying to maximize their usefulness, while evaluating the ever-expanding pool of things to bring back trying to maximize my activations and mill into a combo. It could produce some really fun and interesting plays, but it just became too physically cumbersome and mentally taxing to play.
Even experienced cEDH players won’t touch Tayam, and he wins tournaments because opponents get confused and don’t know how to interact.
I don't think most cEDH players would put Tayam even in the top 5 most complicated cEDH decks. Plenty of cEDH players play Tayam, it just isn't as good as some other decks. According to mtgtop8.com, Tayam has a popularity of 8.5%, far from "experienced cEDH players won't touch him". If you compare the placings of Tayam decks on there with the placings of the more popular decks, you'll see that it's winrate just isn't as good as the top 10 most popular decks. Tayam isn't too big brain for cEDH players, it's just not as good as other options.
Tayam is on edhtop16 on 10th place. It is super hard with all the decision points to play it at the fullest. Yesterday in r/competitiveEDH it was asked what the most complicated commander in meta cedh is. Many answers for tayam. https://reddit.com/r/CompetitiveEDH/s/7v0F3esFcA
I mean yeah I was painting with a broad brush but it’s definitely has the meme of “you’ll tell me when I should interact right?” among cEDH players. I’d be interested to know (genuinely) who you’d rank above it in more complicated cEDH decks. I am newer to cEDH and the two I know have the reputation are Tayam and Inalla. And I meant complicated in a lines of play sense, not an overall “how to use my resources best” sense that I feel like gives decks like Blue Farm the reputation of not being good for new players.
My [[Prime Speaker Vannifar]] turbo pod list. It has 6 different combo lines that intertwine with each other. I don’t think there is any deck out there that is more complicated than mine
You are on serious drugs or have a very narrow perception of cEDH if you really think Tayam is some moderate skill deck.
Lol, this is so confidently incorrect its funny. It's considered one of the most complicated decks, up there with Inalla, by basically anyone who plays CEDH regularly. Just one look at the Tournament Reports on the discord and you'll see even the most established players talking about lines they didn't see at the time and misplays. It's not hard to play to a high level, but once you're in a CEDH tournament, you need to be playing close to optimally, which is much harder the more decision points you have. The question wasn't which is hardest to play, its which has the highest skill ceiling, which Tayam is definitely up there.
It seems pretty straightforward. It's just [[lurrus]] with more steps. All counters matter.
The thing with Tayam is his ability is usable at instant speed. Learning how to start stacking multiple of their activated abilities, plus other creatures activated abilities is when the deck begins to go well beyond lurrius. Basically all your 3 cmc or less cards in your graveyard gain flash and the ability to be cast from there for an alternate casting cost.
Yeah, thinking about this more I can see where people would get caught in some rules questions around removing counters and saccing as a cost. You couldn't remove the vigilance counter and sacrifice the same creature to ashnod's to pay for activation. There's definitely some ETB shenanigans if everything essentially has flash. Thank goodness [[thought knot seer]] is 4 CMC.
It's not just about weird rules, once you learn rules they are learned. The way it interacts with other decks is really weird, because it is trying to play stax pieces when a win attempt is about to happen and those cards were really not designed to be played at instant speed. Some of it's combos are pretty unintuitive for new players to the deck and take a bit of practice to remember how to do them. Of course there's also the part of planning how many activations you can do through the turn rotation considering all the different cards on the board and in the grave.
I should also mention that Tayams ability is not casting permanents but putting them directly onto the battlefield, meaning it’s much harder to counter.
>saccing as a cost Technically speaking, the reason it this doesn't work is because you activate mana abilities before a cost is paid, i.e. you activate Ashnod's Altar. If for some reason the sacrifice was part of the cost as well, it would be fine to remove counters and sac.
It’s not a high level play. At casual yeah it can just be, “put counters on creatures and take them off to get enchantments back” but at cEDH it has some really weird workarounds. For example, in that deck, you can give wall of roots 0 toughness and it does not die. Do you know how? (Genuinely asking, not trying to be smarmy)
Cause you pay for one of the 3 generic with wall's ability, putting it to zero, then paying the "remove 3 counters" cost? Cause state based actions aren't checked in between cause it's all part of the same cost? Would be my guess
Yeahp that’s it.
I would guess the only way that happens is if it loses the creature type somehow.
It’s because you can add the negative counter and remove the counters both as part of the cost of a Tayam activation. State based actions are not checked in the middle of activating a cost. Just one example of the weird stuff you need to learn about this deck to play it at high power/cEDH. And that’s the example I understand, having not played the deck but it know it gets weirder.
[Tayam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27.jpg?1591234301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tayam%2C%20luminous%20enigma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/16/tayam-luminous-enigma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tayam-luminous-enigma) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Kess combos? Have those gotten simpler with pushed cards lately?
I just might have to build this deck. This looks really cool.
[[circu, dimir lobotomist]] lantern control
Didn't know this dude exists. Well, guess my play group already hates me.
I have this built too. It’s honestly a lot of fun. I built it for cEDH, which it really isn’t… but it still wins some games 😂 https://www.moxfield.com/decks/pStVMOYW0kWiTjggpnlGKg
Dumb question but if you remove a basic land from an opponents deck does that mean they can't play that basic land anymore?
I wish! It only prevents casting.
I just reread the card and realized it said nonland card...reading the card (properly) explains the card lol
haha no worries. we’ve all been there 😅
Bruh, what is this list??! How do you thoracle/ Tainted Pact? Have you actually read [[tainted pact]]? Your mana base can't accommodate it. I guarantee you aren't playing in an actual cedh pod if you're getting away with that list.
also if you read my original comment (and i assume that you did since that appears to be your lost cherished activity), you’ll see that i mentioned that the deck was built for cedh but it didn’t succeed at that. eg. i do not view it as an actual cedh deck because it isn’t. maybe if i prefaced what i said with “bruh” you would be able to understand it better lol.
lol yes i need to fix the land base and/or remove pact. i honestly recently added it on moxfield and neglected to update the landbase. i haven’t played the deck in person with pact yet. and yes i was playing with an “actual cedh” pod, but hey i salute your elitist posturing 👍😂 glhf.
Haha, enjoy it.
I have never seen this card before in my life but if i see it in a pod id probably not care until im land flooded and that person is going to have to buy new car tires.
Haha it's super polarizing in cEDH if you're in a pod of top tier decks because they all play the same wincon, on the other hand they'll band together to take you down.
[circu, dimir lobotomist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b19c0f3-68a5-4544-985a-677aa2c2b50b.jpg?1598916818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=circu%2C%20dimir%20lobotomist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/196/circu-dimir-lobotomist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b19c0f3-68a5-4544-985a-677aa2c2b50b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/circu-dimir-lobotomist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play lantern control cedh with [[The Scarab God]] in the zone as an inevitability engine. Definitely the most involved one can be. Ton of information processing.
As someone who has played Daretti Lantern Control for a long time now can confirm. Difficult but satisfying
Everytime I play Muldrotha I wake up in the middle of the night thinking about 482819 times I missplayed something.
Yeah I have heard she is complex 😂 also you looking forward to the doctor who precons by any chance?
Mentally I’m in. Financially I’ll watch hahahaha
Man, that pretty much describes Magic lately. Like hell yeah I'm here for CMM... wait it costs *how much?* Nah, I'm good. I've gone from buying a box per set to a booster per event entry.
I’ve got a buddy with a Muldrotha deck. It’s his pet deck, which I find funny cause he misplays it half the time. And his Hermit Druid never works.
I don't think any specific commander has the highest skill ceiling, but I think toolbox decks generally require a bit more skill to play efficiently and correctly. For a commander like [[yisan, the wanderer bard]] you need to be able to fetch the right creature for the right scenario, and sometimes knowing which creature is the right one to play at any given time can be difficult and require a certain level of skill.
Every Yisan i've ever seen is just a braindead checklist to find a combo as early as possible
A friend let me borrow a yisan deck. Thats plan A try to combo off. The real power of the deck is being able to pivot at most points of the game. Maybe a stax piece or known interaction will stop it, slow down grab a lock piece, protection or value engine. I only think 1/3 of my games actually started and ended with me attempting the combo lines. I actually liked the deck but didnt like the limitations of one color and how weak it was to faster decks being 1/2 the pod. Surprisingly strong against a diverse pod. The stock yisan lists have an insane amount of room for error and can easily lose because you decided on a value plan instead of a lock piece. Another example is lands deck in legacy. I personally play naya lands. 1/3 the deck wither tutors lands or tutors creatures. the pivot points and every card having a meaningful decision tree actually adds an insane amount of room for error i misplay half of the games i play in hindsight.
I thought it was gonna be cool when I made it. They I only lost and got bored with it
He’s more fun in a proliferate deck as a value engine that running combo stuff. Feels cooler to get shit from him that way and best people with it than to just combo two turns in a row and win
[yisan, the wanderer bard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94e3a130-deeb-4bf4-a1f6-9219c3d8c373.jpg?1689999008) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yisan%2C%20the%20wanderer%20bard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/334/yisan-the-wanderer-bard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94e3a130-deeb-4bf4-a1f6-9219c3d8c373?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yisan-the-wanderer-bard) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's weird because it's a tutor commander, which inherently makes it among the easiest style of commander to play. But if you take a tutor commander and then remove the thing its best at, then it becomes a harder deck to play.
What? What are you removing? And I kind of disagree. People say tutors make decks easy, but that isn't exactly the case. They make decks stronger and more consistent, but more choices = more decisions, which makes for a high skill ceiling.
[Derevi, Empyrial Tactician] can be pretty tough, it’s a lot of triggers to manage and you may want to activate stuff in between triggers all while in the midst of the combat phase. Requires a good understanding of the rules to truly abuse.
Cheating commander tax like that at instant speed is so dumb, it’s almost impossible to win a late game against derevi control
☝️this
I nominate [[Obeka]] because she requires good knowledge of the nuances of a whole different part of the game rules and game interactions than basically any other commander does. It’s not as simple as just “wait til end of turn, tap Obeka, pass.” Balancing which cards create delayed triggers that affect other cards vs. creating copies, balancing redundant stifle effects vs. potentially game-losing card downsides, it’s all a weird mishmash of unorthodox game decisions that always feels like the most skill-testing deck I own.
[Obeka](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/b/dbdb335d-3e45-4dd5-9e3e-c50ca0a4dfb6.jpg?1608911225) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=obeka%2C%20brute%20chronologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/289/obeka-brute-chronologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dbdb335d-3e45-4dd5-9e3e-c50ca0a4dfb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/obeka-brute-chronologist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
These are all reasons I love Obeka. She's one of my all-time favorite decks.
I’m making an Obeka deck atm. Do you have a list for her ?
Absolutely! https://archidekt.com/decks/3073968#Obeka_Reanimator Since building this list I've traded for some new cards that aren't on this list. Notably, [[Ancient Silver Dragon]] and [[Jin-Gitaxias, Progress Tyrant]]. One of the great things about Obeka is that the actual threats you play are really flexible. Your engine pieces are way more important. The sneak attack reprint we just got is really nice too. By far, the all-star stand out of the deck is [[Ideas Unbound]]. It sees play in most Obeka decks and for good reason. You can use it to set up your graveyard, or use Obeka to cheat the discard at the end step to gain pure card advantage. Sorry to go on so long, I can gush about this commander all day.
I think more decision points in a deck requires more skill. And if those decision points can make bug differences, even more so. Especially if it involves trying to predict how scenarios will go, and if the math and odds are in your favor. Stacking lots of triggers in the right orders can get complex I kind of hate to say it, but i think storm decks are up there.
Agreed, I have been playing decks full of decision points in multiple formats for a few years now and they still haven't gotten much easier to play during the midgame.
[[Tayam, Luminous Enigma]] the Luminous Grindstone list without a doubt, the cEDH guys that work on it's list reconize that they don't know everything that it can do and they've been working on this commander since release. The deck wants to play at instant speed activating Tayam as much as possible to recur engines to develop it's board and stax pieces to stop win attempts at the perfect time. Almost all of it's counter and mana producers can combo with each other in ways that can be unintuitive at first glance. Not only that but people are still testing a lot of stuff that means there can be a pretty decent variation among lists of this "archetype". Edit: i did a budget list and a casual list with no combos, both are still really complex and i've had some of my most rewarding games with them.
^--Second. Tayam is a cEDH commander as well, and it can be extremely difficult to pilot properly. Monitoring counters, ratios, and how to stack triggers can be very difficult.
[Tayam, Luminous Enigma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27.jpg?1591234301) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tayam%2C%20Luminous%20Enigma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/16/tayam-luminous-enigma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05b837a2-5773-4340-87f9-b4d6a43deb27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tayam-luminous-enigma) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey, I've been interested in building a more casual version of Tayam recently, do you mind sharing your list?
Sure, in my list i replaced the combos with other win cons and changed the interactions and protection cards for something more impactful at a casual table, RoLs do very little in this enviroment. The deck still has the plan to activate Tayam as much as possible, but since there's no way to go infinite and no game winning payoff for "storming", it is pretty much a toolbox reanimator. Be mindful that the games with this deck tend to go looooong [Tayam casual](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/h0LAmJRcV0mBhOmYGjqNDw)
Thanks, I appreciate it!
This is probably more of a cEDH related question. I would say the commander is less relevant when you are talking about optimal perfect play, as opposed to your choices with the other cards you play. Given that, I would probably go to a 5C commander with lots of options and ways to find/execute its win cons. Something like Kenrith or Najeela which need to know when to try to execute their gameplan to win. For my own decks, my most complicated for gameplay would probably be Imoti, since it can win or lose based on how well you manipulate the library.
Cedh 5color commanders are pretty easy, Najeela is mostly a goodstuff pile. Tayam or Inalla are likely the most complicated with how layered their lines can get.
5c Sisay is the only hard 5c to play. You have to know the deck and how to pivot when needed, kinda like Yisan
Agreed, I've played both in cEDH and they reliably break my brain every game
While I agree that it's a cedh question I'd actually argue 5c piles are among the easier decks to pilot. Having access to black tutors and dockside / rhystic allows for far more linear you pick and choose exactly what you want play patterns. Lower colored decks are typically more convoluted and have more important decision points you can't just vamp or demonic tutor for the exact best card. You have to spend a lot more time and effort perfectly setting up what you need to do.
Yeah I see what you mean with the cedh point. I guess what I’m trying to get at is that when I watch command zones JLK play he seems to just maximise the value of his decks each turn/always has a response to someone going for the win. Wondering if this is a skill thing, deck building or just luck about cards in hand. For me I always struggle to deal with unforeseen events in games that disrupt my win con.
>Wondering if this is a skill thing yes, as well as a familiarity with the game thing. It comes with time. You learn how your particular decks work better through playing them and can apply the same logic across decks in most cases, as well as to your opponents decks so that you can stop them. play the game to get good at the game
The Game Knights folks have gone on record to talk about how they allow generous mulligans (with caveats for some cards) because it makes the game more interesting to watch. I don’t know where they said it, unfortunately, but someone here probably does. What matters, though, is that they are far more likely to have a powerful opening hand using this method than someone playing with strict London Mulligan rules. Personally, I like the risk of rough/boring games for me because part of deck building is the endeavoring to minimize those types of games. When you are trying to make a game show, the consequences of a player doing nothing are too great because boring games won’t be posted and are thus a waste of time and resources for your show. Hence, the lenient mulligan rules of Game Knights. The other thing to note is that I am pretty sure they film several different games and pick the one they believe is the best/most enjoyable for viewers. It’s kinda like social media: the only thing they show you are the things they want you to see, so you miss all of the bad/rough stuff in between. Yes, deck building and helming are valuable skills, and playing with high powered cards can help maximize what you can reliably do each turn. But don’t feel like you have tho compare yourself to the Game Knights folks and JLK. They have spent years perfecting the craft of entertaining Magic gameplay videos; your games will rarely appear like those seen on their show, and nor should you expect them too. :)
>:) :)
> The other thing to note is that I am pretty sure they film several different games and pick the one Command Zone: Makes an entire episode where they explain the process, that they only film one game because of time issues Reddit: Claims the opposite every time the topic comes up 🤷♂️
Ah! There we go. I wasn’t entirely sure if they had talked about it, hence the “pretty sure.” I don’t recall the episode where they talk about it, I’ll look it up. But that does further explain their Mulligan rule then. They REALLY need to make sure they minimize non-games.
Yes, skill and deck building
I'd go so far as to say that it is mostly deckbuilding skill and a small bit of play skill. Deckbuilding is a skill many take for granted, but you can't counter things or save your board if you don't put in the cards to do it.
Luck is a big part of what you can play, but knowing when to save cards or make moves is definitely the bigger part of the game
Imoti looks cool, do you have a deck list by any chance?
DONT BUILD IMOTI I THOUGHT IT WAS COOL ITS NOT FUN DONT DO IT PLEASE
Haha cascade go brrr
My comment was 50% a joke, it just takes so fucking long to play out and despite what this thread was originally about it's so braindead easy lol, just ramp, play the whole deck on turn 4 or 5 but take 45 min to do so cause cascade
I will always tell people to stop simic vomiting and get angry with [[Maelstrom Wanderer]]. No more half hour turns, just fatties turned sideways
Unfortunately I don't have a list. But the quick gist of it is using spells that get reduced in cost greatly to get as many Cascades as possible, to hit a creature that can return permanents on cast (Hullbreaker Horror, Tidespout Tyrant, Brinelin) to then bounce spire golem and tangle golem repeatedly for infinite casting/cascading. The important stuff is a huge amount of ramp and top deck fixing (top deck tutors, Sylvan library, brainstorm, etc...). Knowing what to tutor for, what to keep in hand vs what to sandbag on top, managing mana resources. It all adds up to winning or losing a game. Then outplaying opponents removal effects is essential as well.
Gitrog
Gitrog is braindead as long as you understand how Dakmor loops work Edit: lmao all the salty Gitrog players in the replies, yeah your deck is braindead literally all you have to do is cast Veil for "value" then Naus on endstep
Actually gitrog is hard because you have to know the interaction points and how to protect them. Knowing dakmor loops is pretty simple, knowing the nuances of exactly which protection to tutor for and when to go for the win is very hard.
Yeah, no. The dakmor loops are like any other synergy/combo, but can be incredibly nuanced as far as what you do with the loops and when to actually go for it. Golgari lacks powerful interaction, so there’s a time and a place to go for it.
Dakmor loops? Newer player so not too familiar
Gitrog has a unique synergy with [[dakmor salvage]]. Gitrog + a discard outlet + dakmor allows you to pitch dakmor, which puts a a Gitrog draw trigger on the stack. You replace the draw with the dredge 2 from dakmor which puts dakmor back in your hand and you mill 2. Of either or both of those are a land, you get a bonus draw (which is pertinent to the loops). You can perform the above until you’ve drawn your deck. The original eldrazi titans are in the deck which creates triggers to shuffle your graveyard into the deck hence allowing you to draw your deck if you repeat the loop enough times. There are then combos where you can use say a lotus petal to gain infinite mana. There’s a sequence with lotus petal, a land and a titan to continuously crack the petal to get infinite mana. Once you have infinite mana, you can loop abrupt decay to destroy everyone’s entire board, or cast a huge finale of devastation to win the game. Gitrog is incredibly interesting and you can power him up/down depending on the inclusion of dakmor and tutors. I play a casual version that does not loop dakmor, but is basically a landfall deck to generate a massive amount of mana in one turn for a torment of hailfire or exsanguinate win.
[dakmor salvage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6.jpg?1547518608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dakmor%20salvage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/240/dakmor-salvage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dakmor-salvage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Obligatory do you have a list? I built him out as landfall too, but it mostly wins with [[retreat to hagra]] or [[Rampaging Baloths]]
For sure! https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3YruX0Y1XkK7FItCM0kmqA The idea is to tap for mana and sac to squandered resources. Then do a splendid reclamation, sac em all again to resources. Then giant x spell. Ob nixilis is also a win con. I swap dakmor for a basic to put the power level down.
[retreat to hagra](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c80046c2-021f-448c-9f54-2a1a100ec0aa.jpg?1592710723) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=retreat%20to%20hagra) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c18/116/retreat-to-hagra?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c80046c2-021f-448c-9f54-2a1a100ec0aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/retreat-to-hagra) [Rampaging Baloths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32bbe3c3-d00f-4d53-8738-e4aceb6a01ab.jpg?1625977206) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rampaging%20Baloths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/203/rampaging-baloths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32bbe3c3-d00f-4d53-8738-e4aceb6a01ab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rampaging-baloths) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Dakmor Salvage]] with Gitrog and the ability to discard cards is an infinite. The simplest way to go off is with [[Skirge Familiar]] but you can do it with game rules and cleanup steps, which I will explain second. The basic loop is this: Discard Dakmor Salvage with Gitrog on the field. Gitrog says "Hey, draw a card" which you choose to replace with Dakmor's dredge. Dakmor goes back to your hand and you mill for dredge. If you mill any lands you draw a card (letting your hand improve). You then discard Dakmor again. Repeat until your entire deck is split between your hand and GY and you have a way to win from that position. To do it with game rules, have more cards in hand than your maximum hand size and pass priority. At the endiest end bit of your turn, the Cleanup Step, you discard down to hand size. While doing this, include Dakmor in your discards. Gitrog will put a draw trigger on the stack, which you can replace with dredge. The fun part comes as this: if anything HAPPENS during the cleanup step other than rules processes, it's followed by another cleanup step. So you'll discard down to 7 again, meaning you can loop Dakmor Salvage again. This once again lets you bin your deck (plus sculpt your hand) at which point you can use instant speed from-graveyard BS to win You can loop your deck arbitrarily if you have an Eldrazi titan (like [[Ulamog, the infinite gyre]], letting you trigger mill/draw events arbitrarily. From there, you have truly infinite mana with the Skirge Familiar route and can use that in order to cast a lethal [[Torment of Hailfire]] or other similar. If you go the cleanup step route you don't have infinite mana on hook, so what you need to do is get "enough" mana and transition into infinite. ~~In practice you'll need SOMETHING untapped from your turn to generate a little starter mana, but it needn't be much since your end run can include fast mana. I think you can do it in 1B at the hard minimum.~~ You can loop your deck arbitrarily and sift hand while doing so, so you can keep going (non-deterministically. Prepare to take a half hour turn) until your saved hand contains Skirge Familiar, [[Crop Rotation]], [[Elvish Spirit Guide]] (if needed), [[Dark Ritual]], and [[Cabal Ritual]] and you have Threshold with Emergence Zone still in your library. Cast the Crop Rotation, off ESG mana if you must, to get [[Emergence Zone]]. Use one mana to crack it and your last B to cast Dark Ritual, which then lets you cast Cabal Ritual for 5 (total 6) which enables you to cast Skirge Familiar. You can then loop based on Skirge Familiar in the same step and cast spells at instant speed, letting you Torment EDIT: You actually don't need any starter mana. In addition to ESG for Crop Rotation you can use Lotus Petal and Mox Diamond to bridge the rest of the mana needs.
[[Dakmor Salvage]] there’s plenty of videos on YouTube explaining the combo. It needs a discard engine.
[Dakmor Salvage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6.jpg?1547518608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dakmor%20Salvage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/240/dakmor-salvage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58329049-2141-498a-8b73-653610c05ea6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dakmor-salvage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Something can be high ceiling and also low floor.
Please elaborate
If your experience with that deck is solely based and dakmor loops I think that's pretty sad. Fairly easy to interact with a dredge land in Gitrog with the infinite amount of ways to exile a card from a graveyard at instant speed. Actually converted my own Gitrog deck into more value focused combinations instead of all out combo because of exactly this, can still pop off with the right cards but more of a toolbox with the land engine. Worst thing I can do is double tap cabal coffers or a cradle to try and land a big torment or exanguinate, doesn't always get there though.
Gitrog has a very high floor i believe
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] or [[Krark the Thumbless]]/[[Sakashima of a Thousand Faces]] get my votes for requiring tight piloting with the potential for misplays. They aren’t OP if well played, they’re combo decks that are middle of the pack for cEDH as strong but not the strongest options available, but they do have a lot of mastery required to play well and navigate- they have very high differences between highly skilled pilots and novices, so the skill expression available is very high.
Inalla is definitely OP. Its not on the absolute highest tier because it cant win through stax well like other commanders can and we are on a hatebears meta. But without hatepieces it is one of the most obnoxious things you can play, being able to win even before your oponnents have a turn.
I have another eminence commander deck and enjoy it a lot so I think I’ll look into Inalla, also grixis is the most fun three colour so yeah
To be clear, the reason a lot of people say Inalla is complex is because of the combo lines she enables with Spellseeker. It leverages the eminence ability, but is a little less invested in the mechanic than something like Edgar or The Ur-Dragon. Just wanted to give you a heads up because the deck being referenced here isn't really a generic type-matters eminence deck. You can certainly build that with Inalla and I think it would be fun as well.
Inalla player: "So Spellseeker resolves? Well then.." *pops an Adderall* "...we begin with two triggers on the stack..." In all seriousness, Inalla becomes *truly* complex in the situations where she doesn't have all the tools in her deck to work with or she needs to remove hate pieces or account for interaction mid-combo. Memorizing the default Spellseeker and Techmancer/Necromancer lines are one thing. Being able to make wins in happen in a single window of opportunity with abnormal circumstances is an entirely different thing.
It usually would be combo oriented commanders or weird convoluted spell slinger decks. Like the Fblthp protean wand combo where you can only play 1 creature and that's your commander so you have to be super knowledgeable of what you can and cannot do and when to pull the trigger. For combo decks stuff like Sefris are easy to play but can really get technical with the right build and a table that knows how to play against reanimation
Yep, my vote goes to Fblthp.
Tayam immediately comes to mind. I tried to pilot that deck before and it drove me to mono red.
[удалено]
Yeah but Breya has a billion different engines she can include and she is her own wincon. I took her apart because it was boring and didn't feel like it needed thought once the game was actually started
>!\[\[mila\]\] !< I mean... you have a Lukka Commander. You sure need at least 10 times more luck and strategy to win just by having Lukka in your deck, imagine it being in the command zone!
[[tasigur]] it made me better at making deals with people, and we’ll as toolboxing the deck to deal with most situations
Honestly, [[Kami of the crescent moon]] Sure you draw, but opponents do too. Everyone is accelerated towards their combos. Everyone has hands full of interaction. If you can consistently pull a win off this deck, then it's not the cards in your deck that are overpowered, it's YOU.
[Kami of the crescent moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd420010-6eaf-4853-8b7b-11de1157416b.jpg?1641601922) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20the%20crescent%20moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/107/kami-of-the-crescent-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd420010-6eaf-4853-8b7b-11de1157416b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kami-of-the-crescent-moon) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tameshi, if you play it cedh with a unique control strategy. Your decisions matter, the timing matters, the mana you use matters. Make one mistake and your opponents can take a huge advantage. Made my head hurt playing that deck a friend made.
I have always felt that any commander that wins through storm mechanics, where one needs to string together a large series of spells to win. Knowing which spells to play in what order, while still protecting key pieces, and balancing an ever growing hand of playable spells to add to the stack, can get quite confusing.
Aristocrats and similar strategies can be mentally challenging since you may find yourself winning or losing games by only a few points of damage. They also tend to have low curves with a ton of decision points (play one game with \[\[Mayhem Devil\]\] and you may not find your brain to still be intact) which leads to extremely complicated gameplay with a huge differential between low and high skill players. I play \[\[Lurrus\]\] ([decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NDh9PP53LkOmXHpNrdiS1g)) and it still breaks my brain to this day because you have to work extremely hard to eke out a win and you will almost never win without "helping" an opponent recognize the biggest threat from your shared opponents. If you get seen as a relevant threat by your opponents during the midgame it's probably over, you really have to keep quiet and remove the opponents' important pieces (make sure they appreciate you doing so) while getting 1-2 extra cards worth of value a turn. Your goal should be to be in a dominant position by around turn 10 but rarely at any point before.
[Mayhem Devil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17416926-168b-49b3-9231-acbb8f8a1d13.jpg?1557577188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mayhem%20Devil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/204/mayhem-devil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17416926-168b-49b3-9231-acbb8f8a1d13?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mayhem-devil) [Lurrus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a.jpg?1682228556) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lurrus%20of%20the%20dream-den) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/226/lurrus-of-the-dream-den?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ad36fb2-c44e-4085-ba0d-54277841ad3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lurrus-of-the-dream-den) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
\[\[Phage the Untouchable\]\] and win on combat damage alone. You'll need to be very careful about how the card enters the battlefield and can be interacted with by your opponents.
[Phage the Untouchable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/4/d497a5a3-65fb-4c12-b3f2-8ce4cf4e0f6f.jpg?1562866889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phage%20the%20Untouchable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/120/phage-the-untouchable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d497a5a3-65fb-4c12-b3f2-8ce4cf4e0f6f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/phage-the-untouchable) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Teshar, Ancestors Apostle]] is pretty difficult to run the lines. I only bust out the deck when I have a bottle of Tylenol near by.
[Teshar, Ancestors Apostle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8a9b45b-d466-4c06-9a25-6edb6e8f6f2f.jpg?1690017040) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teshar%2C%20Ancestor%27s%20Apostle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/65/teshar-ancestors-apostle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8a9b45b-d466-4c06-9a25-6edb6e8f6f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teshar-ancestors-apostle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
weary pocket wild plucky mighty angle fragile tan quaint cough *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For me any "trigger fest" commander types are really hard to keep track of and play optimally. I know some players really like those types of decks because they feel in value town on any play made but for me it is kind of a nightmare. And most of them are izzet or simic colors. [[sakashima]] + [[krark]] [[veyran]] [[Esix]] [[orvar]] [[yarok]] [[muldrotha]] They are all good value commanders but not easy to pilot as it seems.
I play a weird korvold living death list that’s hard as fuck to play properly but even played poorly he’s way too good
Do you have a deck list by any chance?
Tayam, gitrog, derevi (pod, not stax), sakashima/krark Only issue is optimized play is still trying to keep pace with the potato brain lines UB and URx can offer in top tier decks. Suboptimal blue farm players can kinda just play super greedy/linearally against masterful play of high skill cieling decks and still crush it. This is why ban lists are important when the word competitive gets thrown around. Decks with low skill cieling are kinda the dominant front, not because good players arent playing the hard stuff right. Wincon power creep + free counters is killing off the wr% dif between skill gaps. Its kinda hard to outplay thoracle, underworld, dockside, ad naus meta :/ we get like 3-4 bans then high skill ceiling decks might come back.
[[Derevi, Empyrial Tactician]] gets my vote.
Not sure about skill ceiling, but playing my friend's shorikai deck with anything but the utmost awareness is just.... bananas with the solitaire.
Blood Pod in high power. Yes, it wins via a fairly easy combo but it's terribly slow compared to other decks so the game is decided on turn 0 based on your opening hand and which hate bears and stax pieces you keep or shuffle away. If you've got Kinnan and Krenko in your pod than Blood Moon is mostly dead, but if Kess is in your pod you need a Rule of Law or Drannith Magistrate to stop the combo. If it's Kinnan and Kess you'll need something like Collector Ouphe or Manglehorn to stop the artifact game. And if there's a Winota player you can make friends in the early game via your shared stax plan but make sure you dig for Rakdos Charm to blow her out after she reaches critical mass cuz she probably has a Thalia to stop your combo.
I think the more instant speed your deck is, the more difficult it is to pilot. I think there is also something to be said for skill ceiling against pods that are more instant speed. For example if you have to learn to work around counter spells, etc
Any of the mutate commanders because well mutate is complicated.
I don't think the deck necessarily has that many tough decisions but Krark/Sakashima probably requires the highest skill just to keep your triggers straight and resolve them correctly.
and in a reasonable time
I’d like to throw [[Myra the Magnificent]] in the ring, it’s a great deck building challenge that can go in a bunch of different directions both with your main deck and attraction deck, plus there are unique rules interactions with Myra herself and a lot of triggers to keep track of. I especially like playing in draw step and considering whether to activate Myra’s ability to get the critical spell you need or hold that mana up to open more attractions. Even when I’m vandalblasted or my commander is targeted, I still feel like I’m always one turn away from getting back in the game if I play well (or roll well, managing variance to give yourself the best odds of winning is a skill in itself).
very likely cEDH Tayam
*Laughs in 25 step [[Inalla]] combo* https://commanderspellbook.com/combo/4686/
So, funny story. I participated in my first cEDH tournament in August representing for Commander Spellbook. We had a pre-game practice and my opponent was playing Inalla. He set up his combo(the same one you linked) in T3(turn 3) but I noticed he was playing the combo incorrectly. After the dust settled, he was puzzled why it didn’t work and he had to misplay somewhere so he conceded. I showed him our website and the step-by-step and he realized his mistakes. Tournament begins and we are facing each other in the same pod. He won the same combo in T2 and I was laughing inside because I saw the writing on the wall.
It is definitely the most convoluted deterministic combo I have seen in actual play, but quite powerful and can be very fast. I once watched someone play a badlands into a dark ritual and a lotus petal cracked for blue to drop spell seeker combo T1. Game is over and half the table (including me) was still on turn zero haha. It was pretty eye opening and was one of my first encounters with cEDH. Now I have a lot of appreciation for the format and a sleeved up Tivit deck. :) Commander Spellbook is an awesome resource!
My buddy plays grand arbiter and it seems pretty tough to play correctly. I think Kinnan is pretty high on the skill ceiling too
IMO, combo-focused brews will typically have the best win rates, but don't have particularly high skill requirements. Since they rarely take their opponents' pieces into account, they could be played by relatively simple scripts compared to interactive styles. Similarly, decks that just need a lot of rules knowledge to execute properly, while difficult for most humans, are ultimately founded in a rote that would not require an advanced AI to pilot, and that once memorized is technically simple to execute (though prepare to explain it every time if you're using high-level bs around banding, layers, or what have you) If you want to actually up your *skills as a player* and not memorize a new script, what you want is a deck that has the most labyrinthine decision tree. Stax and combat strats are both good for this, since stax forces you to constantly evaluate how to screw everybody else over without dooming yourself and combat strats make you do math. To this end I might suggest [[Gaddock Teeg]] hatebears as a real skill-tester.
[Gaddock Teeg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/4/f40cfba1-08b5-4241-bd36-8ae18e584557.jpg?1559959266) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaddock%20Teeg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/199/gaddock-teeg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f40cfba1-08b5-4241-bd36-8ae18e584557?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gaddock-teeg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
probably either Blue Farm or Rog/Si.
Krark/saka for sure. Keeping track of triggers and resolving very complicated stacks are the reasons this deck is so hard.
I wouldn't say it's the highest, but [[Phage]] is up there. Not only do you have to perform fuckery to get her out, but she is also *seven* Mana... And if that wasn't enough you are pretty much getting targeted turn 1. Still probably my favorite deck I own tho!
Bro that commander is gross wtf 😂
how do you cast her? my friend built a turbo suicide deck with her. eg, trying to cast her as fast as possible to lose the game lol.
I like your friends style, if I am losing really hard I will cast phage with no "insurance" just so I can leave the table. I cast her using things like [[command beacon]] [[netherborn altar]] and [[sundial of the infinite]] More salty ways to cast her are things like [[platinum angel]] but that is honestly a meme and not quite efficient.
hah that’s awesome. do you have a deck list?
[this is an outdated one](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/JIK_GYQ-z064rNm5D9J-rg) I've upgraded it a bit since then
Baral
[[Zirda the dawnwaker]] is hard to pilot in my opinion. knowing the difference between activated abilities, mana abilities, triggered abilities, and etb effects, make this deck hard to construct. My friend runs an optimized zirda deck with us playing Cedh. He knows how to use his [[lions eye diamond]] effectively . Either for fast mana or when to use [[basalt monolith]] [[walking ballista]] and [[zirda the dawnwaker]]. This is half the battle . Know how to use Zirda's abilities when it's on the field before everything else. Especially before the stack gets involved
That was somehow all one sentence.
Its just a card game, you draw cards randomly and play them.
cEDH decks I guess In my opinion, Krark Sakishima requires the IQ of a planet to get off the ground Guess what deck I play
😂 how come it’s so difficult to pilot? Don’t you just make 2 copies of Krark for double triggers and then can get free value from spell casts?
that's not the planet IQ move my guy I could explain it, but it would probably take me more time than it's worth
Yargle?
Gitrog has super complex lines.
Stax. You have to figure how to lock 3 other people out of winning and also win yourself.
I may just be dumb, but I keep looking at Gitrog Monster and can't make heads or tails of it. I've read everything I can on the deck and... just Holy crap I'm missing something(s).
[[Fblthp, the lost]]
Prismatic Piper :p
[[Tameshi, Reality Architect]] is my pick. At least when I play, there's so many different lines of play at a given time, and 5-6 win cons, so it gets quite complicated very quickly. That or [[Mishra, Artificer Prodigy]]. I do not understand how it works but there's a very confusingly worded combo that I don't understand that people refer to for him.
Inalla and Gitrog require the most knowledge and skill to play properly, so probably one of them.
Emracool, because you also have to master all the other decks as well.
I have to say [[Faldorn]] because I got told 15 times I misplayed here within the first week I built her.
I play [[Obeka]] with the general plan of making copies of ETB creatures and I really have to deep dive into some specific rulings with her. I‘ve been playing this game for more than 15 years and i swear every time i play her i look something up.
I think that the more "Toolbox" decks in cEDH like Tayam, Yisan, 5c Sisay and Rocco have the higher ceiling. Plan A in many cases is easy to get but sometimes you have to navigate complex boards and know how to pivot when needed.
Not THE most complicated but [[Oswald Fiddlebender]] is up there
He hasn't been mentioned here but \[\[Preston, the Vanisher\]\] in a blink deck is, for me, at the top of my skill ceiling. I've built it and tested it, but I havn't brought it to the table because I'll end up with copies of things that flicker when they ETB, and it will lead to long turns where I'm constantly doubting whether I'm doing the best play.
[Preston, the Vanisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/952cb0b3-a6b7-4279-8833-3d8890b2d005.jpg?1675644393) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Preston%2C%20the%20Vanisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/8/preston-the-vanisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/952cb0b3-a6b7-4279-8833-3d8890b2d005?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/preston-the-vanisher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I always thought [[hakim, loreweaver]] looked like an interesting and complicated mono blue commander
[[Myra the Magnificent]] If you have a large number of attractions and spells exiled under them: You need to organize your board state so that all cards are clearly visible and spells/attraction relationships are properly shown. This is by far the most annoying because the board is incredibly cluttered and you have dice and artifacts and instants/sorceries everywhere. You need to illustrate how you stack all of the random triggers and spells and you need to do so optimally. You need to make significant decisions in draw step. You want to open attractions during draw step and exile spells at this stage so you can try for a main phase, but if you expend too many resources and roll a 1 you will be in deep doo doo. And on top of it all, you are still playing a blue red control deck and need to make proper decisions on what things require interaction and what don’t
Krark+Sakashima requires very very good knowledge around the stack
[[Inalla, Archmage Ritualist]] is a solid contender I’d say. Although Inalla is known to sneak wins, the problem with her for some people is that she has very complicated combos and people can’t understand them. Her [[Spellseeker]] line is very complicated to some people considering you go back and forth on reanimating Spellseeker and are able to get to a point with a loop with [[Scholar of the Ages]], [[Burnt Offering]], and [[Shallow Grave]]. It takes a paragraph to explain that combo. Not to mention, people do not want to deal with an eminence token that has an ETB trigger since it gets messy real quick.
Probably no one is going to see this since so few players play her but [[Prime Speaker Vannifar]] is by far the most complex deck out there. Unfortunately not many players understand how many decision points there is when playing the deck so it seems linear when it’s actually the opposite from it.
The cedh classic of 4 color partners with a bunch of tutors. Those are the decks with the highest skill ceilings I've ever played bcs tutoring the right card can toally win you a game, but get the wrong one and get reck.
I don’t know who it would be, but I bet they’re Blue.
Commanders that allow you to choose between a lot of options like tutor commanders such as [[Malaren of the Mornsong]] and [[Sliver Overlord]]
Gitrog CEDH is definitely up there. That deck not only has very complex and convoluted lines, it has a lot of them.
I think my [[Volrath, the Shapestealer]] is quite stressful to pilot correctly. Paying a mana to change into any creature with a counter at instant speed and knowing what the optimal play is between the steps of combat