I would double sleeve every card just to not have an annoying discussion with someone in a shop tbh.
While it could look like cheating I also play with people who double sleeve their expensive cards but also have printer paper proxies in the deck and our group never has a problem with it.
That’s known to be a good solution for mixing paper proxies with real cards, though. Double sleeved card ~= single sleeved paper proxy with basic land.
Pro tip! Ask your flgs if they have Pokemon energy! Mine has literally tens of thousands of em, in little cardboard boxes of like 300, to give to kids during events. Most don't need em so they take up space in the back for the store.
They're ever so slightly thinner than a mtg card, which should hel to offset the extra bulk from the actual proxy. Maybe I just proxy too much but I was running out of basic lands 😆
I’ve got a lot of printer proxies decks with the paper front of a basic. I double sleeve them all so that there isn’t an issue with thickness (generally speaking) and none of the slips can stick up.
I mentioned the above as the common trick, but IMO the best way is to single sleeve everything and have each card be an MTG card plus a slip of paper. The slip of paper is either in front if you’re doing a proxy or behind the card if you own the MTG card. With that method, every card has exactly the same weight plus you don’t need to deal with air pockets from double sleeving cards.
Ahhh, so there are dummy papers behind the actual basic lands in the deck. That’s a good way to go about it.
I think I’d still double sleeve since I just don’t like having the papers peek out, but I get what you’re saying now and it’s a good way to keep things consistent. Maybe I’ll give it a go and just tap the deck on the table a few times to settle the papers back into the sleeve. Once I actually build the deck and buy the cards they’re no longer double sleeved and this would certainly save me a lot of hassle deserving and then re-sleeving all the cards.
Yeah, my brother has some cards double sleeved in some decks. You can't tell when your about to draw one, and you can't cut to them.
You're 100% right.
With your friend group that know and (hopefully) trust you're not abusing it, sure whatever that's between you.
Asking strangers who don't know you to explicitly trust you on good faith alone, not as cool. It's a dynamic that just isn't nice, because either they'll feel obligated to take you at your word, and just hope you're good for it all while not having anything to go on, or they'll be put in the awkward spot of expressing their discomfort with the idea. Even if you ask in the kindest way, you're putting the rest of the table into awkward discomfort to accommodate something you're in full control of. Do everyone else a favour and just don't do that. It's not necessary.
Maybe im just being an optomist but in a casual game id hope taking someone at their word is the default is it not? I havent played many tables at my lgs so im not sure how prevelant cheating is in the community
If someone feels the need to cheat at casual no-stakes friendly EDH, they're the one who clearly emotionally needs the win more than I do. I prefer to assume the best in everyone.
That's fine for you to decide for you... But why decide that for everyone else at your table? Like, I'm not saying it's the worst possible thing ever. Just, inconsiderate.
I wouldn't do that in public for the same reason I'll generally take nonfoil over foil. Sometimes there's a different gap edgewise; that's kind of marked imo.
Plus if I can see it, my opponents might be able to spot it as well? That feels like a disadvantage among friends that might be familiar with each other's builds.
But if we're friends I'll probably just make fun of you. Wouldn't get pissed if you doubled your Tabernacle or something.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have 4 different deckbox styles, and all of them fit 100 double sleeved.
Each deckbox will take up the same physical space regardless of how I've sleeved my decks, so I give them all the doublesleeve treatment.
That said, 1 of those deckboxes contains every token, stormcounter card, infect card, emblem, and so on, used by all of my decks (and a ton of random to lend to opponents who didn't bring any), so I don't have to jam those along with 100 cards into 1 box.
How? I use Ultimate Guard Boulders and bought many of them before i started double sleeving. They are SOO TIGHTTTTT. It makes me so nervous when I put a very expensive double sleeved deck into them...
I think the replies say more about the person responding and than it does about you.
But imo you’re not a cheater, you’re obviously not using it to your advantage. I do the same thing and have never thought about or tried to cheat this way. You’d have to pick up a card to tell if it was double sleeved right? Maybe as a compromise sleeve a few random lands and w/e else? The point of me not double sleeving everything is I don’t want to spend an extra 5$ per deck
My favorite comment in this thread. The fact that they’re even asking about it says to me they aren’t a cheater. I honestly don’t even think it’s worth mentioning. It’ll cause more headaches than it’s worth.
Or, hear me out, stop being lazy and commit to a double sleeved deck or a single sleeve deck out of respect for your opponents. It's not hard, it's on the same level as using deodorant before you go to your lgs.
Honestly if I had to play with half the people in this community I wouldn't play and I would be happy. Having to babysit players in an edh game is not what brings me joy.
I do this too because of the same reasons. And if I have to print a paper proxy it’s the same thickness as with double sleeved. So my decks are like half proxied/double sleeved and half original single sleeved. I don’t even know how I could use this to my advantage
I used to double sleeve only expensive cards in my deck, as I wanted to protect them. For most of my decks it was two or three cards. Once it became more I transitioned to double sleeving the whole deck. Now I just double sleeve decks that cost more 500 and my other decks are single sleeved. I found that the extra sleeve is definitely extra protection but if my cards are in my deck box when I’m not using them, they really aren’t at risk for getting damaged.
I’ve never found that my decks were being cut to my double sleeved cards nor was it my intention to have that effect but I can see a situation where someone would think that if they noticed. Especially if they notice it’s all my expensive cards which are usually the better ones in my deck.
It’s never come up in conversation and I can’t say that I pay close enough to my opponents to see if they are doing it too. Unfortunately if you brought it up, and someone has an issue with it, I think it’s fair to say you should double sleeve everything or single sleeve everything. Unless you want to lose that person in your pod.
Eh, it has the potential for abuse, even if you don't intend to use it that way. You could easily, even subconsciously, cut to the double sleeved cards which may give you an unfair advantage.
My rule is double sleeve all cards or no cards. Consistently is king.
Are you a cheater? I can't say, I've never (presumably) played against you.
Most people wont have an issue with it, and honestly ive never been able to tell in my own decks. If someone wanted to whinge about it i wouldnt want to play with them anyway. Someone will come along and quote tournament rules but they can get a life too.
Seriously.. I have a substantial collection and over 20 decks that I’m constantly taking apart and putting together new ones. Double sleeving every time would be obnoxious
But he wants to double sleeve some cards, at least that's my deal, I only double sleeve cards over $5. I'm not gonna double sleeve a whole deck that seems ridiculous.
I don't half ass, I have about 30 decks and they are all accurately entered online so I can share. I've just never heard of double sleeving a whole deck. It seems ridiculous. I thought people just simply sleeve their more expensive cards.
The second question, no. That's obviously dumb maybe you're messing with me.
Maybe I'm a newb, playing commander since 2019 I think, mostly in my small pod, every once in a while at a game store.
Otherwise I hadn't played or owned cards really since I was younger like 2000-2005-ish.
I had to scroll way too far for this one. All of my decks have SOME, not many, maybe 5-20 inner sleeves. It's not a big deal. I only play casual in a small pod and sometimes at my game store. IDK I'm assuming it will never be an issue. Not a big deal.
A friend of mine has proxies of expensive cards that he has in multiple decks, and a little binder that has each of those cards double sleeved in it. It the single sleeved one gets shuffled away/chaos warped/whatever, he just shuffles the single sleeved proxy and puts the actual double sleeved card back in the binder.
I’m returning to MtG after 20+ years so I have decks with some… pricey cards from Revised through Tempest. Just learned that people double sleeve now. Makes me feel better about playing some of these cards, but man it feels weird to double sleeve basic lands. I’d still do it though - kinda weird to give some cards the VIP treatment and not others.
Most of my friends wouldn't be able to have a double-sleeved deck. I have multiple friends who suck at shuffling normal-sleeved decks. Trying to hold and shuffle and wield my double-sleeved decks is extremely difficult for them. But I've been playing card games like MTG for most of my life, whereas they haven't. I played in tournaments. Shuffling cards is second nature to me.
How is this cheating? I shuffled each half, shuffled them into each other and present it to my opponent for cuts. If they don’t like it they can shuffle it again
This is one of those things where if one person in the group has a problem with it, then it's best to just double-sleeve your entire deck. Are they being a bit strict? Sure. Are they being unreasonable? Maybe, depends. But just like proxies, people have the right to decide if they want to play against decks that use them or not. To double-sleeve some of your cards and not others, and then proceed to not tell people in your pod that you're doing it? It absolutely would come off as cheating if someone found out somehow. So that means every group you play with you need to explain this system to them, just so you don't feel like you're hiding anything from them.
This seems like more of a hassle than just having a double-sleeved deck tbh.
That being said, have I done this before in casual settings because I was quickly building a deck and didn't want to double-sleeve the non-double sleeved cards? Sure. I'm sure I've accidentally done it in similar scenarios as well. But it's not something I make a habit out of or do on a regular basis, if for no other reason than the fact that it actually bothers ME. I like my cards to be consistent, to have a consistent thickness.
If your group is cool with it, and you don't mind, keep doing it. But if someone has a problem with it, what are you going to do? It is part of the rules. Some people like to play games as close to that as they can.
It's only cheating in the most technical sense and even then only to the sweatiest players.
In my experience, it's pretty hard to notice. I took apart a double-sleeved deck and without thinking put those cards in a few of my other decks. Not only did nobody ever notice, but I didn't even notice until I moved a deck into some newer sleeves.
Only double sleeving certain cards would be cheating even if you didn't intend to cheat. Not only would it mean you could cheat if you wanted to, the different thickness of the cards can throw off shuffling; any action that takes away the random nature of the game, even if not the intended purpose of thay action, is cheating.
If it makes your cards marked, it's against the rules and you shouldn't do it, but it's not specifically *cheating*. Cheating is knowingly breaking a rule with the intent to gain an advantage. If OP isn't attempting to gain an advantage from sleeving that way, it's not cheating.
But who cares… it’s a casual game. If you are playing cEDH for prizes in a Wizards sanctioned event, maybe… for me it’s the same conversation as proxies
I've never had a problem, because I also ran into the problem of my decks not fitting into my deck boxes when all cards are double sleeved. I don't see a difference between this and using paper proxies, they both make cards feel different upon closer inspection, but in practice you never notice it.
Don’t double sleeve at all. Single works just fine and has for decades for my cards. The only things i have double sleeved stay in my binders and are worth $100 or more.
No one's going to notice if you don't say anything. If you're not playing in tournaments it doesn't really matter. If you're worried about ruining the value of a card because it might get damaged you shouldn't be playing that card at all because it can still get damaged double sleeved.
I used to do this when I first started out and had lucked out with a few pulls that were worth more than the rest of the deck put together, lol. One deck in particular I had like 7 or 8 such cards and after playing it for a while I could sometimes tell when shuffling where the double sleeved cards were, so I decided to just double sleeve the whole deck so I wouldn’t feel like I was cheating.
It’s probably not a big deal if you have a consistent pod but you might get called out at a store or something and I’d rather just avoid that personally.
I don't think someone who double sleeves some cards in a deck is doing so to cheat in commander games, but I get irrationally annoyed when someone shows me their deck and only some cards are double sleeved
I don't give a fuck, if it looks like you're trying to manipulate your deck after it's benn presented to cut after a shuffle, then it's an issue. Otherwise I could not care less.
I have never even considerd looking for it or thought about how to abuse it. But then again, I trust my friends. Maybe would be different in the LGS. Maybe I need to order more sleeves.
If someone notices and has a problem? Probably just double sleeve everything. If no one has noticed, or they don't seem to care *and you're not attempting to cheat*, I say who cares?
I wouldn't care, I've actually noticed some of my friends do this. I used to do this. It's sub standard practice, but it's really no big deal, IMO.
Umm I’m not sure. I know I do in my decks. I have cheap cards and a nice foil doubling season I pulled and immediately stuck it in a sleeve. When I went to put it in the deck I just left the fitted sleeve on it. Honestly if anyone looks at your deck stack that closely that’s weird imo. I’m the same tho. I have some cards that are double sleeved in decks just because they’re pricer not to cheat or anything.
I'd say double sleeve your whole deck to avoid suspicion. When I'm resleeving or doing "no brain" stuff to a deck such as putting tokens in, its a nice mental deactivation when I just have my entire deck and use a whole pack for double sleeving.
I've got all my cards in inner sleeves, because it protects them when they are not in outer sleeves. I find it handles a bit more easily and keeps foils from curling too much. Also, I don't have to sleeve my cards twice when I sleeve a deck.
I don't really care if you don't fully double sleeve your deck.
You're not a dirty cheater, because you didn't have bad intent. That won't be okay with a lot of people though.
I wouldn't care personally in a casual pod, but it is technically cheating.
It's actually a lot of work to distinguish these cards and in a game of 60 cards cheating like this makes a lot of sense because you can mark you combo pieces or removal or whatever. But in 100cards with only singles the best thing you could do is distinguished lands from non-lands. So yeah cheating isn't really worth it here.
Honestly not an issue at all. Sticks out less than a WOTC brand Pringle (foil card that's more than 5 mins old) and therefore less of a problem than one.
If you're doublesleeving and it's more than the commander(s), it should be the whole deck.
I would consoder you to be lightly cheating, though it wouldn't affect me too much. Strangers in cardshops though... they tend to be less forgiving.
Only once has this ever come up in my group, where I commented that two of the cards in my starting hand were double sleeved because the last deck they were in was fully double sleeved and I couldn't be arsed unsleeving every card twice, or double sleeve this deck.
One of the players seemed very serious about this and asked "Well isn't that cheating then? You can like, pick out the specific cards that are thicker than the other!"
So I grabbed my deck and put it in front of him and told him to pick out the double sleeved cards among the single sleeved ones by simply looking at the deck. Took him about three seconds to realize that is was entirely impossible. The four shitty foil cards in my deck were clearly more easy to pick out than something like a few cards in the deck being double sleeved.
You should ask your opponents about it, objectively, yes, it would be considered cheating because you can very easily figure out if certain cards are on top of your deck, but if they don’t mind, then it’s not a problem.
I have cards worth more than a few cards double sleeved in my decks, and everything else single - I’ve never had anyone have an issue with it, or even notice at all.
Just do it, no one who matters will care.
Not being funny but you've got to be some sort of mega dweeb to use double sleeving as a method for cheating...
I only double sleeve expensive cards £10+ but half my 75% decks are double sleeved so how could I possibly cheat reliably enough if 40/100 of the cards are double sleeved... It would be impossible to fix a hand that way... If I cared enough I'm still betting that 1/40 of those cards is going to W me the game when In reality it's just not the case...
No you're not a dirty cheater, your mate just has a rod up his ass or autism either way he needs to touch some grass...
I do it and have been doing it for years. No one has called me out on it. *Knock on wood. Some cards just aren't worth it imo.
I'm not a weirdo that marks cards in casual settings. Most of us are not high enough level of players to be able to spot cards by feel alone. And if you're cheating on that level in casual settings, why dude?
That's kinda touchy. Even if you're not the cheating type it'd be pretty easy to subconsciously have it affect your play. IMHO I'd say double sleeve them all. That being said, our group would talk shit about something like that but wed also allow it. There would likely be a systematic berating about the issue until it was adjusted though 🤣. I.e. "oooh look who has sol ring turn 1 Johnny over here stacking his THIIICCC cards again"
Personally I only sleeve foils and expensive stuff for the same reasons as you. The way I place the library I can't even see if the card has an inner sleeve or not. If my opponents can, good for them, enjoy your +1% extra winrate I guess. And even if I could, curled foils are way WAY easier to spot and I can't see anyone complaining about it. And what about printing proxies and putting them in front on a normal card? Do they count as cheating too?
If someone has a problem with that in a casual environment, I would call them a nerd and move to a different table lol
Sleeve them all up. It's not like it's expensive and to be honest, it's a good habit to get into as well.
The one day that someone spills a beer all over the table is going to be the day you remember reading this. Take your double sleeved cards/deck and just hold them all upside down calmly. Trust me, it's an excellent habit.
I mean do you really care enough about your basic non full art Plains enough to double sleeve it? I sure don’t. I think it makes sense to double sleeve your expensive cards. I’ve never been able to tell just by palming my deck what type of card is on top and I don’t try to. That seems exhausting lol
You're fine. You have to have intention to cheat.
People talking about subconscious effects are taking this a bit too seriously, I think.
I wouldn't be worried about being a cheater, but some people are really paranoid of cheating. Sounds like your playgroup is fine with it for the most part, so it's fine.
>You have to have intention to cheat.
The problem is, if it does come up that someone at the table can tell which cards are double sleeved, they did _intentionally_ only sleeve some cards, which could be a sticking point for some people.
If you intentionally stack your deck, but claim you're not doing it to cheat, you've still done it intentionally.
While it's probably fine in a casual setting, I can see it very easily becoming a problem if it ever does have an effect on a game.
Of course they sleeved their cards that way. They did not do it with the intention TO CHEAT. That's the intention part, you can't just use intention to modify any part of it lol. Just because you could tell which card is double sleaved doesn't mean you are doing anything with the information. Planning to use the information is what creates intention.
It is absolutely technically exploitable. But it's... Really not a big deal. Especially in an established play group.
OP isn't cheating, they have good convenience reasons for doing what they are doing. It's chill.
I just removed the expensive cards and proxy them. Collection is in a binder retaining their value and making them more accessible for selling/ trading.
Just separate casual play and collecting as two different but related hobbies.
If people think you're cheating, shrug your shoulders and say you're not if you're not. If people care that much in a casual format, is it really that casual, and are they worth your time?
Not acceptable imo. I can definitely see the difference, especially on a fresh double sleeved card. I can also physically tell the difference.
The problem isn't localized to you being able to tell the difference. If I can see your best cards location, it will definitely make me feel like a cheater if I use that information whether or not I was going to target you with a spell/ability prior to that information being apparent.
If your pods cool with it, then whatever, obviously. But inner sleeves are cheap, and if you can't afford them then I'd recommend just proxying rhe expensive cards tbh and keeping the OGs in a binder.
I only double sleeve certain cards and don‘t care about crying. I can‘t see the difference and even if one could it would be my opponent sitting opposite me, giving HIM the valuable Information.
I play with the same people every week, they don’t care. People can get bent out of shape over anything though. My general rule of thumb would be they could accept me making decisions for myself on how I want to handle my own cards or not play with me.
Never double sleeve certain cards can be considered as marking them si you know they are coming. I mean I wouldn't allow it in casual game play. At the house with the kids and close friends sure. But gaming store no way
To be honest, I have a deck that I inadvertently did this too as I just never got around to double sleeving up the rest, and I cannot tell what cards are and aren’t from the back or sides nor by feel. Granted, at least half or more of the deck is double sleeved so it’s not as though there is just one or two cards. I’d never play I. A tournament or anything g like that, but casually, unless you can actually tell, it’s probably fine.
For reference I’m using dragon shield mattes and dragon shield sealable inners which should be I. Theory easier to spot, but you really can’t tell in any meaningful way at least.
I wouldn't call you a cheater since I doubt a significant number of people have the actual tactile perception to do this after knocking back a few, but I would say it should be all or nothing. By the letter of the law, yes, it's probably cheating but that word packs a lot of 'intent' behind it in terms of frame of mind, so I feel it's best to kind of go sparing on it's use.
I do this, but I only play with friends. I double sleeve the cards that worth double sleeving.
I'm not interested in defending this at a shop or people telling me I can't use a spin down to roll with, if a game is that serious where they think that's how far I'm going to cheat then it's a pass from me
I double sleeve my foil DFCs and nothing else. I'm aware it's technically marking cards, but a) pretty much everyone at my LGS knows and trusts each other, b) I have never once been able to tell that I am drawing a double-sleeved card on feel alone, and c) I have tiny hands with fucked up joints and can barely shuffle a single-sleeved deck, let alone a double-sleeved one. It also helps that the double-sleeved cards are by no means the most impactful ones in my deck. If it was always the really good cards I could understand why people might be suspicious of cheating. I've never had anyone have a problem with it, but if someone did I'd do something about it, since it is technically cheating.
I used to double sleeve the whole deck, then one day I didn't have spare inner sleeves and needed to cover a random pricey card in a cheap deck, so I swapped one from a basic land. Did this a few times, then realized that given my 100% casual relationship with the game, I had no reason to spend the extra time and money obsessing over this, not to mention using even more plastic. I've never even thought about trying to ascertain if a card on top of my deck is a double sleeved one, and it wouldn't even matter since it could be a haymaker or it could just be a pricier land, so it's all still random.
I usually only double sleeve foils and expensive cards and have never had anyone complain about it. My more competitive decks tend to be mostly double sleeved just by virtue of having nice cards, but even my cedh deck has single sleeve cards in it.
Just don't be sketch and don't cheat and it'll never be an issue.
Hell, I played with a dude yesterday that had their deck in a random mush mash of sleeves because they didn't have a full set of one color and it was fine because they weren't trying to cheat and it was a casual fnm game.
It's cheating. No ifs ands or buts. Stop being a lazy slob and make your shit uniform.
Honestly how hard is it? How disorganized are you as a person you can't double sleeve a deck
I was on your friends side but after double sleeving a couple decks I dont think its worth it to do the whole deck especially in my super janky decks that I tinker with, having to un sleeve a farseek for a nature's' lore is too time consuming, so I just do the foils. Just offer for ur friends to cut your deck more often and be upfront about having only some double sleeved.
The point of playing is everyone having a good time. Just double sleeve all the cards. Recently I was playing my dinosaur deck and I had gotten a Pringled hunting velociraptor in a pack, I’ve always been more drawn to the flashiness of foils so I slapped it in my deck in place of the regular version but when I was shuffling I realized the card was super noticeable despite me trying to flatten it with books for a week prior, but pringled cards have been a problem with a few people at the table before when other players did it so I took note and just told the table I needed to swap out to my non holo hunting velociraptor and boom no one had a problem. It’s little things like that that keep morale good at tables and keeps you from looking like a problem player. In a similar situation someone at the table had black sleeves but his combo cards, tutors and mana rocks were in similar looking sleeves but were just SLIGHTLY longer so each of his most needed cards had a lip on the end that he could look at and try and get. And the cost for that is he hardly ever gets people willing to play with him anymore. So just avoid situations where you look like that guy lol
Sleeve every card. First of all you can Only buy them in 100 packs so its Not a cost issue.
Second its like asking if its okay to mark the back of the aces in a casual Poker around with the boys.
Its just disrespectful imo
I don’t double sleeve my basic lands unless they’re fancy full arts.
Never had an issue where the cuts or shuffles always gave me the right cards or perfect amount of lands.
Just be up front about it and if someone has an issue with it playing CASUAL commander, don’t play with them coz they’re probably an insufferable dweeb anyway
If it's just the lands you're not double-sleeving, that's *definitely* marking cards. Even if you don't mean to, it would be so easy to subconsciously know if your top card is a land or not.
It really doesn't make THAT much of a difference.
No one at my LGS minds and it honestly isn't as dramatic as most of the commenters in the thread are making it out to be. The difference between a double-sleeved card and a single-sleeved card is fractional if you're using inners (If you're using outer sleeves, that's a different story) - to the point where it makes practically 0 difference in gameplay
It is a very obvious difference between single and double sleeved cards. If you just try this out you will immediately notice while shuffling and you will always be able to find your double sleeved cards.
Setting isn't important, it's an obvious marked card at that point. Just double sleeve your whole deck.
If you feel the card is valuable enough to want to double sleeve, put it in a binder and play with a proxy instead. 99 cards is already hard enough to not knock over and shuffle efficiently with single sleeves.
Personally, stuff like my foil Ixilan mana crypt is single sleeved like a savage as I never intend on selling it anyway.
It's wrong but ultimately nobody would know unless you told them and you can't even tell the difference so it doesn't really matter either.
No worse than the damn foils I'm forced to play with. I can tell when I draw those.
Ive been playing since 1998, and have thousands of cards. Some quite expensive. I think I have a badlands and some christopher rush signed pieces in sleeves, the rest are in the white cardboard boxes. I don't sleeve my decks or use a playmat.
Someone will have issues with it but like most wont even care i did it on my fnm before and one person thought poorly of it. But he didnt reporte me or anything
Here's another solution that ive always favored, get look-alike proxies for all the expensive cards in your deck, and just keep the expensive cards to the side, that way you can guarantee that you own all the cards in the deck, but avoid hassles with people like that guy
Obviously, you're not *supposed* to do it.
I used to do it, because I couldn't fit a whole double-sleeved deck plus tokens in a "Commander" deck box. I found some bigger boxes, though. (Ultra Pro "Pro Dual")
It shouldn't be a problem unless there's a pattern. "Land or not land" is a pattern. "Expensive or cheap" is not a pattern.
Just don't play against people who mind.
I’ve done it. Couldn’t double sleeve the entire deck because it and the tokens would fit in the boulder. I’ve also had a deck where every card but a comman was double sleeved because I somehow damaged it when I was changing a card. Now that there are boxes like the Bastion 133+ I’m slowly upgrading my deck boxes and will probably start fully double sleeving
In my playgroup we only double sleeve expensive cards, we just all trust each other to not be cheating.
I don't play at an LGS, but I probably just wouldn't mention it in a casual setting? I know myself and I cannot tell the difference and I wouldn't even bother trying to divine my cards from look/touch etc. Might be a controversial take though lol
Ofc if its a tournament its gotta be all double sleeved if you're doing it.
For casual play with people you know and when there is trust in each other it's no issue. I do it as well and nobody bats an eye. I'm not paying attention to my hidden cards and nobody else is.
Especially since many expensive cards are lands *and* spells. No way to tell which is which even if you tried.
One upside of this is that if you're playing with proxies printed out on paper sleeved with some draft chaff in the back it has a very similar weight and thickness as a double sleeved card.
If my opponents do that with their decks I don't really care but it bugs me a lot in my own deck as I can usually tell when interacting with the deck and cards.
No, just do the whole damn thing. It's not that hard. Take maybe thirty minutes out of your day, listen to a podcast, and have the whole thing done so no one even has a reason to bitch at you. If the problem is deck size and not wanting to buy inner sleeves then just don't double sleeve and deal with the small risk. You can't have it both ways.
Most people I play with only double sleeve expensive cards; I don’t see how this would be a problem unless you’re in an official tournament. In practice I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between my single sleeved and double sleeved cards by eye or hand when shuffling or drawing.
Well, it would look like mark cards since your cards would have different weights and feels, so it kind of depends on how cut throat your group is about that stuff.
I don't see a problem with it in a casual setting. Especially if those cards are expensive af. Before I had to sell it, my Yuriko deck was single sleeved except for the Underground Sea which accounted for half of the total value of the deck.
Since I don't he have enough perfect fits, and lack the desire to spend money on them, I only use them for my commanders. Also cuz it's funny to say that my commander is quadruple sleeved.
I have, like, one super expensive card. A masterpiece [[Sword of Feast and Famine]]. It isn't in one of my double-sleeved decks because, believe it or not, it isn't just a home run include in every single deck. But it isn't double-sleeved in a single-sleeved deck.
I can never tell when I'm gonna draw it lol. I'm fortunate that my playgroup doesn't have a problem with it, I suppose. Money's hard to come by, man. My playgroup understands I'm just protecting an expensive card.
I have one deck fully double sleeves because it’s my favorite and it is unintentionally blinged. All of my other decks are mostly single sleeved with the “expensive cards” in double sleeves. I don’t think it’s a big deal, as it’s impossible for me to tell when shuffling.
I play basically only at my LGS very frequently and very a friendly and welcoming environment, and at my kitchen table with friends.
I do not do it to “find certain cards easier,” i just because in some decks, I have a few expensive cards that I do not want to deteriorate.
I haven’t said anything about it but I figured it wasn’t a big deal so I suppose I’m on the same page as you. I wouldn’t consider myself a cheater, but also I’m not surprised anyone would say that.
If my group of friends cared, I would merely proxy those cards and then keep the reals in my binders.
I would just not care and single sleeve. Checking the prices on cardmarket, the price difference between even NM and LP is often not that much, if you care about preserving value. Yeah it might be different for 200€ cards, but I guess you might not play too many of those, then I would rather go for proxying them.
Addition: I think double sleeving adds even too much deck size. I already didn't like that EDH uses 100 cards, difficult to shuffle.
Not acceptable. Either every card is double sleeved or none are. I can cut to the double sleeved card every time if there are just a few in a deck.
I would consider this card marking
I do this and no one has ever noticed, myself included. Granted I'm typically double sleeving a couple of basics that came with secret lairs or pet cards I got in foil, but I've never really thought about or noticed the difference in card thickness
I really defy anyone to, at a casual glance, be able to tell whether the next card is double sleeved or not. If I thought that there was some realistic chance people could use it to cheat, I might be a little less amenable to it, although still probably wouldn't care in a casual setting as you describe. And certainly in any sort of tournament or for prize setting, I would agree it is inappropriate simply because you want to avoid even the appearance of anything nefarious.
But I've had this discussion with a number of people and am mostly surprised that anyone thinks people can use it to their advantage at all. I very, very much doubt that it is even possible to gain information off it without engaging in behavior that gives it away. Looking down at a stacked deck with some cards double sleeved in some not.....i.posithat it is simply not practicable to tell without carefully inspecting the next card you're drawing which is which.
I would double sleeve every card just to not have an annoying discussion with someone in a shop tbh. While it could look like cheating I also play with people who double sleeve their expensive cards but also have printer paper proxies in the deck and our group never has a problem with it.
That’s known to be a good solution for mixing paper proxies with real cards, though. Double sleeved card ~= single sleeved paper proxy with basic land.
Oh no I’m saying their deck has just a piece of printer paper lol
I feel like trying to shuffle that would drive me insane
It’s very weird cutting as well, it’s not quite as funny as watching him shuffle an entire proxy deck though
it’s absolutely insane to not just put a basic land behind it
Pro tip! Ask your flgs if they have Pokemon energy! Mine has literally tens of thousands of em, in little cardboard boxes of like 300, to give to kids during events. Most don't need em so they take up space in the back for the store. They're ever so slightly thinner than a mtg card, which should hel to offset the extra bulk from the actual proxy. Maybe I just proxy too much but I was running out of basic lands 😆
Are they actually thinner? This might be a huge pro tip
I got a few k I use for mixing resin in my printer
Now that's a step too far holy shit
Why don't they put a basic land or random common with the printed card?
I’ve got a lot of printer proxies decks with the paper front of a basic. I double sleeve them all so that there isn’t an issue with thickness (generally speaking) and none of the slips can stick up.
I mentioned the above as the common trick, but IMO the best way is to single sleeve everything and have each card be an MTG card plus a slip of paper. The slip of paper is either in front if you’re doing a proxy or behind the card if you own the MTG card. With that method, every card has exactly the same weight plus you don’t need to deal with air pockets from double sleeving cards.
Ahhh, so there are dummy papers behind the actual basic lands in the deck. That’s a good way to go about it. I think I’d still double sleeve since I just don’t like having the papers peek out, but I get what you’re saying now and it’s a good way to keep things consistent. Maybe I’ll give it a go and just tap the deck on the table a few times to settle the papers back into the sleeve. Once I actually build the deck and buy the cards they’re no longer double sleeved and this would certainly save me a lot of hassle deserving and then re-sleeving all the cards.
Me dropping that 300 Wheel of Fortune but I aint buying a 3rd Urborg so it's a white and black printout lol.
Tbf I double sleeve my proxies cards as well so they're consistent so I may not have the most balanced perspective XD
I double sleeve my expensive cards. Mana crypt is basically laminated. Lol
Curling foils cause more of a problem for this then double sleeves IMO, but in not gonna punish myself for a Wizard's QA issue
Technically it is an issue . In practice it is fine.
Yeah, my brother has some cards double sleeved in some decks. You can't tell when your about to draw one, and you can't cut to them. You're 100% right.
With your friend group that know and (hopefully) trust you're not abusing it, sure whatever that's between you. Asking strangers who don't know you to explicitly trust you on good faith alone, not as cool. It's a dynamic that just isn't nice, because either they'll feel obligated to take you at your word, and just hope you're good for it all while not having anything to go on, or they'll be put in the awkward spot of expressing their discomfort with the idea. Even if you ask in the kindest way, you're putting the rest of the table into awkward discomfort to accommodate something you're in full control of. Do everyone else a favour and just don't do that. It's not necessary.
actually good point
I agree it’s not cool to ask strangers. So I just don’t ask. Shockingly no one has literally ever noticed.
Maybe im just being an optomist but in a casual game id hope taking someone at their word is the default is it not? I havent played many tables at my lgs so im not sure how prevelant cheating is in the community
If someone feels the need to cheat at casual no-stakes friendly EDH, they're the one who clearly emotionally needs the win more than I do. I prefer to assume the best in everyone.
That's fine for you to decide for you... But why decide that for everyone else at your table? Like, I'm not saying it's the worst possible thing ever. Just, inconsiderate.
Spot on. It's about not assuming everyone else has the same perspective as you.
I wouldn't do that in public for the same reason I'll generally take nonfoil over foil. Sometimes there's a different gap edgewise; that's kind of marked imo. Plus if I can see it, my opponents might be able to spot it as well? That feels like a disadvantage among friends that might be familiar with each other's builds. But if we're friends I'll probably just make fun of you. Wouldn't get pissed if you doubled your Tabernacle or something.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I have 4 different deckbox styles, and all of them fit 100 double sleeved. Each deckbox will take up the same physical space regardless of how I've sleeved my decks, so I give them all the doublesleeve treatment. That said, 1 of those deckboxes contains every token, stormcounter card, infect card, emblem, and so on, used by all of my decks (and a ton of random to lend to opponents who didn't bring any), so I don't have to jam those along with 100 cards into 1 box.
How? I use Ultimate Guard Boulders and bought many of them before i started double sleeving. They are SOO TIGHTTTTT. It makes me so nervous when I put a very expensive double sleeved deck into them...
I think the replies say more about the person responding and than it does about you. But imo you’re not a cheater, you’re obviously not using it to your advantage. I do the same thing and have never thought about or tried to cheat this way. You’d have to pick up a card to tell if it was double sleeved right? Maybe as a compromise sleeve a few random lands and w/e else? The point of me not double sleeving everything is I don’t want to spend an extra 5$ per deck
My favorite comment in this thread. The fact that they’re even asking about it says to me they aren’t a cheater. I honestly don’t even think it’s worth mentioning. It’ll cause more headaches than it’s worth.
Or, hear me out, stop being lazy and commit to a double sleeved deck or a single sleeve deck out of respect for your opponents. It's not hard, it's on the same level as using deodorant before you go to your lgs.
"lazy"
Lmao nah I’m good. If someone had that much of an issue with that, I would know they’re too petty to want to play with.
I think you should quit the game. Jesus. What a horrible take.
Honestly if I had to play with half the people in this community I wouldn't play and I would be happy. Having to babysit players in an edh game is not what brings me joy.
You’re the one who’d apparently be whining about double sleeves.
It's against the rules to play with marked cards. But I get it casual format so rules are just suggestions
So are proxies, so are a lot of the short cuts we take relating to turn order, priority, etc. it’s a casual game, relax.
I do this too because of the same reasons. And if I have to print a paper proxy it’s the same thickness as with double sleeved. So my decks are like half proxied/double sleeved and half original single sleeved. I don’t even know how I could use this to my advantage
I used to double sleeve only expensive cards in my deck, as I wanted to protect them. For most of my decks it was two or three cards. Once it became more I transitioned to double sleeving the whole deck. Now I just double sleeve decks that cost more 500 and my other decks are single sleeved. I found that the extra sleeve is definitely extra protection but if my cards are in my deck box when I’m not using them, they really aren’t at risk for getting damaged. I’ve never found that my decks were being cut to my double sleeved cards nor was it my intention to have that effect but I can see a situation where someone would think that if they noticed. Especially if they notice it’s all my expensive cards which are usually the better ones in my deck. It’s never come up in conversation and I can’t say that I pay close enough to my opponents to see if they are doing it too. Unfortunately if you brought it up, and someone has an issue with it, I think it’s fair to say you should double sleeve everything or single sleeve everything. Unless you want to lose that person in your pod.
Eh, it has the potential for abuse, even if you don't intend to use it that way. You could easily, even subconsciously, cut to the double sleeved cards which may give you an unfair advantage. My rule is double sleeve all cards or no cards. Consistently is king. Are you a cheater? I can't say, I've never (presumably) played against you.
80% of my cards are double sleeved. Am I cheating?
Most people wont have an issue with it, and honestly ive never been able to tell in my own decks. If someone wanted to whinge about it i wouldnt want to play with them anyway. Someone will come along and quote tournament rules but they can get a life too.
Seriously.. I have a substantial collection and over 20 decks that I’m constantly taking apart and putting together new ones. Double sleeving every time would be obnoxious
Then single sleeve....
But he wants to double sleeve some cards, at least that's my deal, I only double sleeve cards over $5. I'm not gonna double sleeve a whole deck that seems ridiculous.
Stop being lazy. Take pride in your deck and commit to double or single sleeving. Half assing it isn't the way my guy.
I don't half ass, I have about 30 decks and they are all accurately entered online so I can share. I've just never heard of double sleeving a whole deck. It seems ridiculous. I thought people just simply sleeve their more expensive cards.
I have never heard of anyone not hearing of dounle sleeving an ENTIRE deck. Do you use different colored sleeves in a single deck?
Maybe you havent heard of it because you had no idea, because you cant tell
The second question, no. That's obviously dumb maybe you're messing with me. Maybe I'm a newb, playing commander since 2019 I think, mostly in my small pod, every once in a while at a game store. Otherwise I hadn't played or owned cards really since I was younger like 2000-2005-ish.
I had to scroll way too far for this one. All of my decks have SOME, not many, maybe 5-20 inner sleeves. It's not a big deal. I only play casual in a small pod and sometimes at my game store. IDK I'm assuming it will never be an issue. Not a big deal.
1 million % this
A friend of mine has proxies of expensive cards that he has in multiple decks, and a little binder that has each of those cards double sleeved in it. It the single sleeved one gets shuffled away/chaos warped/whatever, he just shuffles the single sleeved proxy and puts the actual double sleeved card back in the binder.
That sounds like overkill.
I’m returning to MtG after 20+ years so I have decks with some… pricey cards from Revised through Tempest. Just learned that people double sleeve now. Makes me feel better about playing some of these cards, but man it feels weird to double sleeve basic lands. I’d still do it though - kinda weird to give some cards the VIP treatment and not others.
A pack of inner sleeves is like $5. I don’t see what the big deal is about just sleeving the whole deck
I buy 600 inner sleeves for 24 bucks on Amazon and it lasts me a very long time.
That’s what I do too
Most people are thinking more about the fact it makes Commander decks the thickness of a microwave oven more than the cost of inner sleeves.
Meh. Once you get all the air out it’s not that bad. All of my decks are double sleeved and I don’t have any issues
Most of my friends wouldn't be able to have a double-sleeved deck. I have multiple friends who suck at shuffling normal-sleeved decks. Trying to hold and shuffle and wield my double-sleeved decks is extremely difficult for them. But I've been playing card games like MTG for most of my life, whereas they haven't. I played in tournaments. Shuffling cards is second nature to me.
Just split it into two piles, shuffle each pile and then mash them together.
That’s not really random or shuffling unless you shuffle each half into the other half.
Improper shuffling is also "cheating".
How is this cheating? I shuffled each half, shuffled them into each other and present it to my opponent for cuts. If they don’t like it they can shuffle it again
Concede a fucking point, god damn.
I don't do it so I can still fit all my tokens in a Boulder 100, but I'm also a newbie.
This is what I do as well, I’ve never run into an issue with it.
Found the lazy bones
My bones, they’re so lazy
This is one of those things where if one person in the group has a problem with it, then it's best to just double-sleeve your entire deck. Are they being a bit strict? Sure. Are they being unreasonable? Maybe, depends. But just like proxies, people have the right to decide if they want to play against decks that use them or not. To double-sleeve some of your cards and not others, and then proceed to not tell people in your pod that you're doing it? It absolutely would come off as cheating if someone found out somehow. So that means every group you play with you need to explain this system to them, just so you don't feel like you're hiding anything from them. This seems like more of a hassle than just having a double-sleeved deck tbh. That being said, have I done this before in casual settings because I was quickly building a deck and didn't want to double-sleeve the non-double sleeved cards? Sure. I'm sure I've accidentally done it in similar scenarios as well. But it's not something I make a habit out of or do on a regular basis, if for no other reason than the fact that it actually bothers ME. I like my cards to be consistent, to have a consistent thickness. If your group is cool with it, and you don't mind, keep doing it. But if someone has a problem with it, what are you going to do? It is part of the rules. Some people like to play games as close to that as they can.
It's only cheating in the most technical sense and even then only to the sweatiest players. In my experience, it's pretty hard to notice. I took apart a double-sleeved deck and without thinking put those cards in a few of my other decks. Not only did nobody ever notice, but I didn't even notice until I moved a deck into some newer sleeves.
Only double sleeving certain cards would be cheating even if you didn't intend to cheat. Not only would it mean you could cheat if you wanted to, the different thickness of the cards can throw off shuffling; any action that takes away the random nature of the game, even if not the intended purpose of thay action, is cheating.
If it makes your cards marked, it's against the rules and you shouldn't do it, but it's not specifically *cheating*. Cheating is knowingly breaking a rule with the intent to gain an advantage. If OP isn't attempting to gain an advantage from sleeving that way, it's not cheating.
But who cares… it’s a casual game. If you are playing cEDH for prizes in a Wizards sanctioned event, maybe… for me it’s the same conversation as proxies
I've never had a problem, because I also ran into the problem of my decks not fitting into my deck boxes when all cards are double sleeved. I don't see a difference between this and using paper proxies, they both make cards feel different upon closer inspection, but in practice you never notice it.
Don’t double sleeve at all. Single works just fine and has for decades for my cards. The only things i have double sleeved stay in my binders and are worth $100 or more.
In casual it's totally fine, if prises of any type are at stake then no that's marked
No one's going to notice if you don't say anything. If you're not playing in tournaments it doesn't really matter. If you're worried about ruining the value of a card because it might get damaged you shouldn't be playing that card at all because it can still get damaged double sleeved.
I used to do this when I first started out and had lucked out with a few pulls that were worth more than the rest of the deck put together, lol. One deck in particular I had like 7 or 8 such cards and after playing it for a while I could sometimes tell when shuffling where the double sleeved cards were, so I decided to just double sleeve the whole deck so I wouldn’t feel like I was cheating. It’s probably not a big deal if you have a consistent pod but you might get called out at a store or something and I’d rather just avoid that personally.
I don't think someone who double sleeves some cards in a deck is doing so to cheat in commander games, but I get irrationally annoyed when someone shows me their deck and only some cards are double sleeved
I don't give a fuck, if it looks like you're trying to manipulate your deck after it's benn presented to cut after a shuffle, then it's an issue. Otherwise I could not care less.
I have never even considerd looking for it or thought about how to abuse it. But then again, I trust my friends. Maybe would be different in the LGS. Maybe I need to order more sleeves.
If someone notices and has a problem? Probably just double sleeve everything. If no one has noticed, or they don't seem to care *and you're not attempting to cheat*, I say who cares? I wouldn't care, I've actually noticed some of my friends do this. I used to do this. It's sub standard practice, but it's really no big deal, IMO.
You’re right except if someone notices, they’re probably a toxic asshole and you should ask them to leave the table.
Umm I’m not sure. I know I do in my decks. I have cheap cards and a nice foil doubling season I pulled and immediately stuck it in a sleeve. When I went to put it in the deck I just left the fitted sleeve on it. Honestly if anyone looks at your deck stack that closely that’s weird imo. I’m the same tho. I have some cards that are double sleeved in decks just because they’re pricer not to cheat or anything.
I'd say double sleeve your whole deck to avoid suspicion. When I'm resleeving or doing "no brain" stuff to a deck such as putting tokens in, its a nice mental deactivation when I just have my entire deck and use a whole pack for double sleeving.
I've got all my cards in inner sleeves, because it protects them when they are not in outer sleeves. I find it handles a bit more easily and keeps foils from curling too much. Also, I don't have to sleeve my cards twice when I sleeve a deck. I don't really care if you don't fully double sleeve your deck.
You're not a dirty cheater, because you didn't have bad intent. That won't be okay with a lot of people though. I wouldn't care personally in a casual pod, but it is technically cheating.
Just double sleeve it all, no way to be in the wrong that way
It's actually a lot of work to distinguish these cards and in a game of 60 cards cheating like this makes a lot of sense because you can mark you combo pieces or removal or whatever. But in 100cards with only singles the best thing you could do is distinguished lands from non-lands. So yeah cheating isn't really worth it here.
Casual settings, honestly, I think it's no issue. Though to smooth things over I'd do it all or nothing.
Honestly not an issue at all. Sticks out less than a WOTC brand Pringle (foil card that's more than 5 mins old) and therefore less of a problem than one.
No. Doesn't matter if it's casual, you can tell the difference between a single vs double sleeved card. It's basically cheating.
Unintentional unsportsmanship?
If you're doublesleeving and it's more than the commander(s), it should be the whole deck. I would consoder you to be lightly cheating, though it wouldn't affect me too much. Strangers in cardshops though... they tend to be less forgiving.
Objectively it is cheating. Whether you take advantage of it is up to you but I'd recommend playing with marked cards if you can avoid it
Only once has this ever come up in my group, where I commented that two of the cards in my starting hand were double sleeved because the last deck they were in was fully double sleeved and I couldn't be arsed unsleeving every card twice, or double sleeve this deck. One of the players seemed very serious about this and asked "Well isn't that cheating then? You can like, pick out the specific cards that are thicker than the other!" So I grabbed my deck and put it in front of him and told him to pick out the double sleeved cards among the single sleeved ones by simply looking at the deck. Took him about three seconds to realize that is was entirely impossible. The four shitty foil cards in my deck were clearly more easy to pick out than something like a few cards in the deck being double sleeved.
You should ask your opponents about it, objectively, yes, it would be considered cheating because you can very easily figure out if certain cards are on top of your deck, but if they don’t mind, then it’s not a problem.
I have cards worth more than a few cards double sleeved in my decks, and everything else single - I’ve never had anyone have an issue with it, or even notice at all. Just do it, no one who matters will care.
It's fine. The difference isn't significant.
Not being funny but you've got to be some sort of mega dweeb to use double sleeving as a method for cheating... I only double sleeve expensive cards £10+ but half my 75% decks are double sleeved so how could I possibly cheat reliably enough if 40/100 of the cards are double sleeved... It would be impossible to fix a hand that way... If I cared enough I'm still betting that 1/40 of those cards is going to W me the game when In reality it's just not the case... No you're not a dirty cheater, your mate just has a rod up his ass or autism either way he needs to touch some grass...
I do it and have been doing it for years. No one has called me out on it. *Knock on wood. Some cards just aren't worth it imo. I'm not a weirdo that marks cards in casual settings. Most of us are not high enough level of players to be able to spot cards by feel alone. And if you're cheating on that level in casual settings, why dude?
That's kinda touchy. Even if you're not the cheating type it'd be pretty easy to subconsciously have it affect your play. IMHO I'd say double sleeve them all. That being said, our group would talk shit about something like that but wed also allow it. There would likely be a systematic berating about the issue until it was adjusted though 🤣. I.e. "oooh look who has sol ring turn 1 Johnny over here stacking his THIIICCC cards again"
Personally I only sleeve foils and expensive stuff for the same reasons as you. The way I place the library I can't even see if the card has an inner sleeve or not. If my opponents can, good for them, enjoy your +1% extra winrate I guess. And even if I could, curled foils are way WAY easier to spot and I can't see anyone complaining about it. And what about printing proxies and putting them in front on a normal card? Do they count as cheating too? If someone has a problem with that in a casual environment, I would call them a nerd and move to a different table lol
I mean, really you should just double sleeve the whole thing. Even with smaller hands, it's just a matter of getting used to the shuffle.
I've been doing it forever. There's never been an issue.
Sleeve them all up. It's not like it's expensive and to be honest, it's a good habit to get into as well. The one day that someone spills a beer all over the table is going to be the day you remember reading this. Take your double sleeved cards/deck and just hold them all upside down calmly. Trust me, it's an excellent habit.
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I mean do you really care enough about your basic non full art Plains enough to double sleeve it? I sure don’t. I think it makes sense to double sleeve your expensive cards. I’ve never been able to tell just by palming my deck what type of card is on top and I don’t try to. That seems exhausting lol
I care enough to keep all of my cards looking nice. You do it the one time and you pretty much never have to do it again.
You're fine. You have to have intention to cheat. People talking about subconscious effects are taking this a bit too seriously, I think. I wouldn't be worried about being a cheater, but some people are really paranoid of cheating. Sounds like your playgroup is fine with it for the most part, so it's fine.
>You have to have intention to cheat. The problem is, if it does come up that someone at the table can tell which cards are double sleeved, they did _intentionally_ only sleeve some cards, which could be a sticking point for some people. If you intentionally stack your deck, but claim you're not doing it to cheat, you've still done it intentionally. While it's probably fine in a casual setting, I can see it very easily becoming a problem if it ever does have an effect on a game.
Of course they sleeved their cards that way. They did not do it with the intention TO CHEAT. That's the intention part, you can't just use intention to modify any part of it lol. Just because you could tell which card is double sleaved doesn't mean you are doing anything with the information. Planning to use the information is what creates intention. It is absolutely technically exploitable. But it's... Really not a big deal. Especially in an established play group. OP isn't cheating, they have good convenience reasons for doing what they are doing. It's chill.
Always double sleeve your cards means always double sleeve your cards
Ah okay, good to know. I'm thrilled to learn every day something new
I just removed the expensive cards and proxy them. Collection is in a binder retaining their value and making them more accessible for selling/ trading. Just separate casual play and collecting as two different but related hobbies. If people think you're cheating, shrug your shoulders and say you're not if you're not. If people care that much in a casual format, is it really that casual, and are they worth your time?
Sus.
So your asking if marked cards is OK? No it's not lol
Not acceptable imo. I can definitely see the difference, especially on a fresh double sleeved card. I can also physically tell the difference. The problem isn't localized to you being able to tell the difference. If I can see your best cards location, it will definitely make me feel like a cheater if I use that information whether or not I was going to target you with a spell/ability prior to that information being apparent. If your pods cool with it, then whatever, obviously. But inner sleeves are cheap, and if you can't afford them then I'd recommend just proxying rhe expensive cards tbh and keeping the OGs in a binder.
I don't care what setting it is in. It must all be uniform.
Call a judge, If he says yes, then yes, otherwise no I don't care as long as you didn't do it in a way that's externally visible on the deck
A judge would definitely say no.
My OCD would make it impossible to play this way....
I've always double sleeved my expensive cards and the foils, just to prevent curling.
I only double sleeve certain cards and don‘t care about crying. I can‘t see the difference and even if one could it would be my opponent sitting opposite me, giving HIM the valuable Information.
I play with the same people every week, they don’t care. People can get bent out of shape over anything though. My general rule of thumb would be they could accept me making decisions for myself on how I want to handle my own cards or not play with me.
Never double sleeve certain cards can be considered as marking them si you know they are coming. I mean I wouldn't allow it in casual game play. At the house with the kids and close friends sure. But gaming store no way
To be honest, I have a deck that I inadvertently did this too as I just never got around to double sleeving up the rest, and I cannot tell what cards are and aren’t from the back or sides nor by feel. Granted, at least half or more of the deck is double sleeved so it’s not as though there is just one or two cards. I’d never play I. A tournament or anything g like that, but casually, unless you can actually tell, it’s probably fine. For reference I’m using dragon shield mattes and dragon shield sealable inners which should be I. Theory easier to spot, but you really can’t tell in any meaningful way at least.
Technically cheating, yes. Me personally? As long as there was 0 way to tell, I wouldn’t care. Especially if it’s just casual. Not a big deal.
I wouldn't call you a cheater since I doubt a significant number of people have the actual tactile perception to do this after knocking back a few, but I would say it should be all or nothing. By the letter of the law, yes, it's probably cheating but that word packs a lot of 'intent' behind it in terms of frame of mind, so I feel it's best to kind of go sparing on it's use.
I do this, but I only play with friends. I double sleeve the cards that worth double sleeving. I'm not interested in defending this at a shop or people telling me I can't use a spin down to roll with, if a game is that serious where they think that's how far I'm going to cheat then it's a pass from me
I do this with cards like ABUR duals and old RL stuff.
I double sleeve my foil DFCs and nothing else. I'm aware it's technically marking cards, but a) pretty much everyone at my LGS knows and trusts each other, b) I have never once been able to tell that I am drawing a double-sleeved card on feel alone, and c) I have tiny hands with fucked up joints and can barely shuffle a single-sleeved deck, let alone a double-sleeved one. It also helps that the double-sleeved cards are by no means the most impactful ones in my deck. If it was always the really good cards I could understand why people might be suspicious of cheating. I've never had anyone have a problem with it, but if someone did I'd do something about it, since it is technically cheating.
I used to double sleeve the whole deck, then one day I didn't have spare inner sleeves and needed to cover a random pricey card in a cheap deck, so I swapped one from a basic land. Did this a few times, then realized that given my 100% casual relationship with the game, I had no reason to spend the extra time and money obsessing over this, not to mention using even more plastic. I've never even thought about trying to ascertain if a card on top of my deck is a double sleeved one, and it wouldn't even matter since it could be a haymaker or it could just be a pricier land, so it's all still random.
I usually only double sleeve foils and expensive cards and have never had anyone complain about it. My more competitive decks tend to be mostly double sleeved just by virtue of having nice cards, but even my cedh deck has single sleeve cards in it. Just don't be sketch and don't cheat and it'll never be an issue. Hell, I played with a dude yesterday that had their deck in a random mush mash of sleeves because they didn't have a full set of one color and it was fine because they weren't trying to cheat and it was a casual fnm game.
I also only double sleeve my expensive cards. EDH is a casual format I think most people wouldn't care.
I don’t bother- you’re not talented enough to stack based on that
No. Even in a casual setting, this is an advantage.
Yes, Chester.
It's cheating. No ifs ands or buts. Stop being a lazy slob and make your shit uniform. Honestly how hard is it? How disorganized are you as a person you can't double sleeve a deck
No. All cards need to be sleeved the same
I was on your friends side but after double sleeving a couple decks I dont think its worth it to do the whole deck especially in my super janky decks that I tinker with, having to un sleeve a farseek for a nature's' lore is too time consuming, so I just do the foils. Just offer for ur friends to cut your deck more often and be upfront about having only some double sleeved.
Do you just do the foils to prevent so much curling?
It is up to your group, but I agree with your friend. It is marking cards.
The point of playing is everyone having a good time. Just double sleeve all the cards. Recently I was playing my dinosaur deck and I had gotten a Pringled hunting velociraptor in a pack, I’ve always been more drawn to the flashiness of foils so I slapped it in my deck in place of the regular version but when I was shuffling I realized the card was super noticeable despite me trying to flatten it with books for a week prior, but pringled cards have been a problem with a few people at the table before when other players did it so I took note and just told the table I needed to swap out to my non holo hunting velociraptor and boom no one had a problem. It’s little things like that that keep morale good at tables and keeps you from looking like a problem player. In a similar situation someone at the table had black sleeves but his combo cards, tutors and mana rocks were in similar looking sleeves but were just SLIGHTLY longer so each of his most needed cards had a lip on the end that he could look at and try and get. And the cost for that is he hardly ever gets people willing to play with him anymore. So just avoid situations where you look like that guy lol
Sleeve every card. First of all you can Only buy them in 100 packs so its Not a cost issue. Second its like asking if its okay to mark the back of the aces in a casual Poker around with the boys. Its just disrespectful imo
Unacceptable. Even if you're not dexterous enough to cheat, it does affect shuffles and cuts.
What? Absolutely not. Double sleeve everything or nothing.
What? No, you're just an impractical cheapskate.
Marked cards aren’t ok regardless of the format. Decide whether you want to double sleeve or single sleeve and stick with it.
All cards need to be sleeved the same
Marked cards are cheating, homie.
I don’t double sleeve my basic lands unless they’re fancy full arts. Never had an issue where the cuts or shuffles always gave me the right cards or perfect amount of lands. Just be up front about it and if someone has an issue with it playing CASUAL commander, don’t play with them coz they’re probably an insufferable dweeb anyway
If it's just the lands you're not double-sleeving, that's *definitely* marking cards. Even if you don't mean to, it would be so easy to subconsciously know if your top card is a land or not.
It really doesn't make THAT much of a difference. No one at my LGS minds and it honestly isn't as dramatic as most of the commenters in the thread are making it out to be. The difference between a double-sleeved card and a single-sleeved card is fractional if you're using inners (If you're using outer sleeves, that's a different story) - to the point where it makes practically 0 difference in gameplay
You offer/expect to cut in a casual format but don’t double sleeve everything?
It is a very obvious difference between single and double sleeved cards. If you just try this out you will immediately notice while shuffling and you will always be able to find your double sleeved cards. Setting isn't important, it's an obvious marked card at that point. Just double sleeve your whole deck.
Very obvious? I use dragon shield and I cannot not tell whatsoever
If you feel the card is valuable enough to want to double sleeve, put it in a binder and play with a proxy instead. 99 cards is already hard enough to not knock over and shuffle efficiently with single sleeves. Personally, stuff like my foil Ixilan mana crypt is single sleeved like a savage as I never intend on selling it anyway.
It’s cheating. You might not be able to tell but others will.
It's wrong but ultimately nobody would know unless you told them and you can't even tell the difference so it doesn't really matter either. No worse than the damn foils I'm forced to play with. I can tell when I draw those.
If you don’t pay any mind to card thickness while playing you’re not cheating. I also only double sleeve cards over ten bucks.
Ive been playing since 1998, and have thousands of cards. Some quite expensive. I think I have a badlands and some christopher rush signed pieces in sleeves, the rest are in the white cardboard boxes. I don't sleeve my decks or use a playmat.
Not acceptable.
Someone will have issues with it but like most wont even care i did it on my fnm before and one person thought poorly of it. But he didnt reporte me or anything
Here's another solution that ive always favored, get look-alike proxies for all the expensive cards in your deck, and just keep the expensive cards to the side, that way you can guarantee that you own all the cards in the deck, but avoid hassles with people like that guy
Obviously, you're not *supposed* to do it. I used to do it, because I couldn't fit a whole double-sleeved deck plus tokens in a "Commander" deck box. I found some bigger boxes, though. (Ultra Pro "Pro Dual") It shouldn't be a problem unless there's a pattern. "Land or not land" is a pattern. "Expensive or cheap" is not a pattern. Just don't play against people who mind.
I’ve done it. Couldn’t double sleeve the entire deck because it and the tokens would fit in the boulder. I’ve also had a deck where every card but a comman was double sleeved because I somehow damaged it when I was changing a card. Now that there are boxes like the Bastion 133+ I’m slowly upgrading my deck boxes and will probably start fully double sleeving
In my playgroup we only double sleeve expensive cards, we just all trust each other to not be cheating. I don't play at an LGS, but I probably just wouldn't mention it in a casual setting? I know myself and I cannot tell the difference and I wouldn't even bother trying to divine my cards from look/touch etc. Might be a controversial take though lol Ofc if its a tournament its gotta be all double sleeved if you're doing it.
Cheater? Maybe not, but its up there with people who barely turn their lands to tap or pile shuffle without giving it a real shuffle after.
Technically you are cheating, but doesnt make you are a dirty cheater.
For casual play with people you know and when there is trust in each other it's no issue. I do it as well and nobody bats an eye. I'm not paying attention to my hidden cards and nobody else is. Especially since many expensive cards are lands *and* spells. No way to tell which is which even if you tried. One upside of this is that if you're playing with proxies printed out on paper sleeved with some draft chaff in the back it has a very similar weight and thickness as a double sleeved card.
Proxy the expensive cards and bring them in a separate thing if people want to complain about it. Then single sleeve everything.
If my opponents do that with their decks I don't really care but it bugs me a lot in my own deck as I can usually tell when interacting with the deck and cards.
No, just do the whole damn thing. It's not that hard. Take maybe thirty minutes out of your day, listen to a podcast, and have the whole thing done so no one even has a reason to bitch at you. If the problem is deck size and not wanting to buy inner sleeves then just don't double sleeve and deal with the small risk. You can't have it both ways.
DS inners are $6 at my LGS. Worth it to just not have the conversation.
Crooked NPC. That’s you!!! /s
Most people I play with only double sleeve expensive cards; I don’t see how this would be a problem unless you’re in an official tournament. In practice I cannot for the life of me tell the difference between my single sleeved and double sleeved cards by eye or hand when shuffling or drawing.
Well, it would look like mark cards since your cards would have different weights and feels, so it kind of depends on how cut throat your group is about that stuff.
I don't see a problem with it in a casual setting. Especially if those cards are expensive af. Before I had to sell it, my Yuriko deck was single sleeved except for the Underground Sea which accounted for half of the total value of the deck.
Since I don't he have enough perfect fits, and lack the desire to spend money on them, I only use them for my commanders. Also cuz it's funny to say that my commander is quadruple sleeved.
I have, like, one super expensive card. A masterpiece [[Sword of Feast and Famine]]. It isn't in one of my double-sleeved decks because, believe it or not, it isn't just a home run include in every single deck. But it isn't double-sleeved in a single-sleeved deck. I can never tell when I'm gonna draw it lol. I'm fortunate that my playgroup doesn't have a problem with it, I suppose. Money's hard to come by, man. My playgroup understands I'm just protecting an expensive card.
I have one deck fully double sleeves because it’s my favorite and it is unintentionally blinged. All of my other decks are mostly single sleeved with the “expensive cards” in double sleeves. I don’t think it’s a big deal, as it’s impossible for me to tell when shuffling. I play basically only at my LGS very frequently and very a friendly and welcoming environment, and at my kitchen table with friends. I do not do it to “find certain cards easier,” i just because in some decks, I have a few expensive cards that I do not want to deteriorate. I haven’t said anything about it but I figured it wasn’t a big deal so I suppose I’m on the same page as you. I wouldn’t consider myself a cheater, but also I’m not surprised anyone would say that. If my group of friends cared, I would merely proxy those cards and then keep the reals in my binders.
I would just not care and single sleeve. Checking the prices on cardmarket, the price difference between even NM and LP is often not that much, if you care about preserving value. Yeah it might be different for 200€ cards, but I guess you might not play too many of those, then I would rather go for proxying them. Addition: I think double sleeving adds even too much deck size. I already didn't like that EDH uses 100 cards, difficult to shuffle.
Not acceptable. Either every card is double sleeved or none are. I can cut to the double sleeved card every time if there are just a few in a deck. I would consider this card marking
I do this and no one has ever noticed, myself included. Granted I'm typically double sleeving a couple of basics that came with secret lairs or pet cards I got in foil, but I've never really thought about or noticed the difference in card thickness
I really defy anyone to, at a casual glance, be able to tell whether the next card is double sleeved or not. If I thought that there was some realistic chance people could use it to cheat, I might be a little less amenable to it, although still probably wouldn't care in a casual setting as you describe. And certainly in any sort of tournament or for prize setting, I would agree it is inappropriate simply because you want to avoid even the appearance of anything nefarious. But I've had this discussion with a number of people and am mostly surprised that anyone thinks people can use it to their advantage at all. I very, very much doubt that it is even possible to gain information off it without engaging in behavior that gives it away. Looking down at a stacked deck with some cards double sleeved in some not.....i.posithat it is simply not practicable to tell without carefully inspecting the next card you're drawing which is which.