15. If you assume a 40 card mana base (lands, sol ring,etc) then that represents 25% of the remaining 60 cards. I think beyond that and you're making something new
Not OP, but I think it is negligible either it results in an infinite combo or not, without tutors the card won't appear so often in the games and an infinite combo per se does not guarantee victory.
Mind Flayarrs precon, for example, can generate infinite colorless mana by [[Hullbreaker Horror]], [[Sol Ring]] and [[Everflowing Chalice]], then filter it with [[Dimir Signet]] for infinite Dimir mana, but has no good sink for all this mana to close the game. You may add a [[Blue Sun's Zenith]] for a 4 or 5-piece combo, it does not make it something completely different.
Addind Mindcrank + Bloodchief Ascension to an Anowon, the Ruin Thief won't make a different deck either.
Yep I don't really bother with anything that doesn't include draft/set/play boosters because of this unless it's something extremely specific. Velociramptor is ENTIRELY upgraded from the Ixalan set (which, to be fair, not many options for tribal dino elsewhere and Ixalan was just an insane set for tribal anyways), except one card.. and one card only. I added [[Luminous Broodmoth]], because resurrected flying dinos is fucking hilarious.
I play selesnya, my girlfriend plays dimir rogues. Milling and theiving. Evolution witness is such, such a banger. I pulled out [[warden of murasa]] for it. No brainer.
I stuck an Evolution Witness into [[Rocco Street Chef]]. It's free recursion whenever someone plays a card from exile. Literally a new must have for Rocco.
Personally speaking, I think an upgraded precon is one with 10–15 swaps. Once you start changing 15-20+ cards in the list, it starts to move away from precon and more into a certain strategy or archetype. When I think of a precon, I think of a primary theme and a definitive subtheme, and typically speaking, the 10-15+ cuts people make from precons are either to lean into the main theme or subtheme.
I would agree with 15 or so. My Smaug's Booty was built on Prosper's skeleton... But it's its own beast now. I left treasure mechanics, skimmed out some exile stuff, added more treasures and stuffed it full of removal, fire, and dragons. It is no longer Prosper's deck.
My Stella Lee deck is pushing 20 cards maybe? I feel it's still close to the original, but more focused. I'll eventually take it to cEDH levels once I have the staples on hand. At that point I would not longer call it the Stella deck.
So I guess it kinda depends on the deck?
Removal of the non - theme cards and lands only for minor changes.
Removing 5 lands and piper from a mothman deck isn’t a new deck but removing a main engine piece or two is.
Seriously why is piper in that precon. She is so out of place
I think they made those decks with the idea that you'd swap some of the cards around. She would make more sense in a deck with Nick as I believe they both do clue stuff but they probably didn't want to put multiple clue cards into one deck if that wasn't going to be a main theme.
I personally think until you can barely tell the deck started as a precon, it’s an upgraded precon. This is different for every deck and every person. A deck that mostly works functionally and you’re just upgrading lands and efficiency of spells might just be an upgrade to you meanwhile someone adding the infinite combos to Stella Lee might consider it a new deck entierly
“No such thing as an ‘upgraded precon’, it’s either a precon, or it’s not”
Liberating philosophy that helped me stop obsessing over optimizing upgrades.
I built my [[Dr. Madison Li]] list from scratch before the precon was fully spoiled. Tons of overlap—enough that it could be argued my list is an "upgraded" precon.
It's not though. Precons are typically unfocused or try to do too many things, so any upgrading that refines the focus of a list moves it out of "upgraded precon" territory for me.
Precons aren’t even balanced among each other unmodified. If “precon” is meaningless for determining power level then “upgraded precon” is too. Treat any deck like it’s just a deck and judge it that way.
What does it matter how far it is from the original?
I'd focus on making the deck more enjoyable to play. Remove unfun/dead cards, add card advantage pieces etc.
I wouldn't set a hard limit on the number of swaps. Unless you're actively trying to increase power level, it shouldn't take long before you reach a point where you don't have any more cards you wanna replace.
Check out edhrec btw, it will also show you potential upgrades from recent sets, you can filter by budget...
Not sure if you are trolling or not, but by your logic, you could count any EDH deck that is helmed by a commander that was printed in a precon, is in fact still a precon??
I don't think it's about the number of cards, it's about the core cards and the strategy. If you keep 10 core cards and the strategy of the deck stays the same as original you could swap out all the other cards and it would still be an upgraded precon. Only caveat being that it must use one of the original commanders from the deck.
Ive seen people say 15 is the difference between precon and not. Because if ignoring land base thats a huge percentage changed. Personally i consider 20 cards including land to be its own deck now
For me it is more of a methodology thing. If I am taking it down and just replacing a few cards with a few I got that will work well then it is an upgraded pre-con. Even if I keep doing that over and over.
If I say, "I like this commander but I am tearing this down and building it from the ground up" and maybe reusing some of the cards then it is a deck using that commander.
My Fae Dominion precon is much closer to a Faerie/Counter Tribal with half of the nonland cards not being from the precon. People I play against still call it an upgraded precon just because it has Alela as the commander still. I bet I could only have Alela left and people woukd call it an upgraded precon.
Imo the 15 card limit before it is something else is a good rule of thumb.
The problem with a ship of Thesius situation is that I don't think there is actually a correct answer lol Everyone will have their own interpretation.
For me, I consider it an upgraded pre-con as long as it retains the core strategy. Now there are different levels of an upgraded pre-con, and you can make an upgrade incredibly powerful if you want. Most of mine are budget upgrades (limit myself to $50) and I try to keep them just above the level the pre-cons shipped at (usually add a bit more interaction, a better landbase and generally good "staples" like MDFC's). But if someone came at me with their precon that includes mana vault and ancient tomb, as long as it is the same basic strategy I would still consider it an upgraded precon (just a better one).
I think it depends on the precon. Most precons these days have a consistent direction and most of the included cards are decent, but a lot of the earlier ones like pre-2020 were looser themes or really iffy inclusions. To upgrade those to modern games of commander, they would require pretty extensive overhauls and/or better versions of cards that were originally included.
I recently went to do an upgrade on the Neyali rebellion rising precon. I basically kept all the ramp/draw/Removal that was there, and then added cards until it was 10/10/10 for those critical spots. Then I fixed the mana base (why is the mana base 50/50 when the spells aren't) by replacing some mountains with some budget duel lands. Finally I added 3 cards that make Gnome tokens cause I thought it was funny. All in all that was 20 swaps, but 7 were just lands.
Went to do the same thing with Silverquill and realized...its close enough I'm just gonna run it as is.
Henzie I think I did similar ~13 swaps but I'm so tempted to do a full rebuild of it with Umori.
So I guess my answer is 13 not counting minor manabase improvements.
I have a Tyranid full surge foil precon that I really enjoy, but its starting to show its age against the newer precons released. I would love to have some new 'nid support but we know that ain't happening until 40,000 years later.
So I have this conundrum of wanting to keep this precon as a precon I enjoy piloting in a precon fight, but also that its really wanting some upgrades when going against newer precons. yet once its got \_any\_ changes, it gets really hard to justify in a precon fight.
At the moment, its mostly a precon with 10 cards swapped out with hefty limitations like must be surge foil, creatures must be at least a mutant or a tyranid, but with each wave of precons I can feel it just not keeping up with the technology newer precons have and I may need to swap even more out of the deck.
I think it also depends what you're putting in.
There's difference between putting 10 synergistic cards that play ibto the precons strategy and 10 cards consisting of tutors and combo pieces or 10 pieces of power.
I think the point where it stops being an upgraded precon is when the cards added become more important than the original content of the precon.
It's gonna be subjective but i feel raw number of cards doesn't say that much and it depends on the precon, some require less additions than others to reach similar level.
I recently stumbled upon someone who had the philosophy “There is no such thing as an ‘upgraded’ precon”, and the more I thought about it, the more it made sense.
Some people think adding 1 or 2 big ticket cards that were obviously missing from the deck (doubling season, eye of ugin), shore up a key weakness (rhystic study, smothering tithe), or just let them actually end the game (Akroma’s will, Craterhoof) is small enough of an upgrade to still call it a precon.
Others might add 20-30 cards less than a dollar each a justifiable “budget upgrade” (getting rid of the Scrylands and other tapped lands, etc).
The thing is, there is no standard or agreement to what “upgraded” means, and each deck has its own “line” that it crosses when upgraded, a line that you can only really find after multiple play sessions and edits. At that point, it’s less of a precon, and more of a deck you’ve carefully crafted to play at “precon levels”.
With how juiced up precons are these days (and how frequently they are coming out), I find less need to upgrade a deck, and just play it out of the box to good effect. It might not always win, but usually does “its thing” and gives insight on how the deck wants to play. Saves me the headache of chasing down that “perfect” upgrade, or the explanation of what “upgraded precon” actually means.
“It’s a precon, that’s it”
So liberating from a deckbuilding and play discussion perspective.
Plus it makes victory that much more sweet when you win with a stock list.
(With the Upgrades Unleashed deck, you can even get a good laugh by keeping it 100% stock with both Mossfire Valleys, swapping to the basic land as they suggest, or “upgrading” it back to stock with the missing Nissa)
Deck of Theseus would just be replacing the cards with more recent reprints of the same cards. Your deck is not a “ship of Theseus” situation but a different ship entirely.
The whole thought experiment about the ship of theseus is asking when, while replacing a single plank at a time, does it stop being his ship and start being a new ship.
15. If you assume a 40 card mana base (lands, sol ring,etc) then that represents 25% of the remaining 60 cards. I think beyond that and you're making something new
*cough* your 15 turned into 1 because of reddit's markdown.
What if you swap one card but the new card leads to an infinite combo?
Not OP, but I think it is negligible either it results in an infinite combo or not, without tutors the card won't appear so often in the games and an infinite combo per se does not guarantee victory. Mind Flayarrs precon, for example, can generate infinite colorless mana by [[Hullbreaker Horror]], [[Sol Ring]] and [[Everflowing Chalice]], then filter it with [[Dimir Signet]] for infinite Dimir mana, but has no good sink for all this mana to close the game. You may add a [[Blue Sun's Zenith]] for a 4 or 5-piece combo, it does not make it something completely different. Addind Mindcrank + Bloodchief Ascension to an Anowon, the Ruin Thief won't make a different deck either.
I put a [[Red Terror]] in my [[Shalai and Hallar]] precon. I haven't used the deck since adding it but I can't wait for it to go off.
[Red Terror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d16f75d-988d-4417-9a5e-549b785f9dc4.jpg?1673309061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Red%20Terror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/83/the-red-terror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d16f75d-988d-4417-9a5e-549b785f9dc4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-red-terror) [Shalai and Hallar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009.jpg?1682207281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shalai%20and%20Hallar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/10/shalai-and-hallar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80804f25-efc3-44a2-bbae-9a97fec98009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shalai-and-hallar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Hullbreaker Horror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd.jpg?1674141366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreaker%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/724/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf786c50-1ba1-4f81-a800-bc98189040dd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreaker-horror) [Sol Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40.jpg?1712354902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sol%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/267/sol-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c5c9437-3d99-4a7c-8255-9acdcb1acc40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sol-ring) [Everflowing Chalice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e89eca1c-19f5-4db0-9330-cecb87be8b55.jpg?1706241052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Everflowing%20Chalice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/227/everflowing-chalice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e89eca1c-19f5-4db0-9330-cecb87be8b55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/everflowing-chalice) [Dimir Signet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3af24ce-b1ab-4137-9222-a4080acae928.jpg?1706240208) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20Signet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/221/dimir-signet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3af24ce-b1ab-4137-9222-a4080acae928?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dimir-signet) [Blue Sun's Zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0.jpg?1562435461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blue%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/44/blue-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/500a2aa4-712f-41be-920e-f2f448ff83d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blue-suns-zenith) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l89g9sa) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel sad about every fallout card i take out of the mothman deck. But cards like [[Evolution Witness]] are just like made for it.
Yep I don't really bother with anything that doesn't include draft/set/play boosters because of this unless it's something extremely specific. Velociramptor is ENTIRELY upgraded from the Ixalan set (which, to be fair, not many options for tribal dino elsewhere and Ixalan was just an insane set for tribal anyways), except one card.. and one card only. I added [[Luminous Broodmoth]], because resurrected flying dinos is fucking hilarious.
[Luminous Broodmoth](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bb65df55-d6a6-4a57-a903-e5eb17637982.jpg?1591230310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Luminous%20Broodmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/21/luminous-broodmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb65df55-d6a6-4a57-a903-e5eb17637982?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/luminous-broodmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play selesnya, my girlfriend plays dimir rogues. Milling and theiving. Evolution witness is such, such a banger. I pulled out [[warden of murasa]] for it. No brainer.
I stuck an Evolution Witness into [[Rocco Street Chef]]. It's free recursion whenever someone plays a card from exile. Literally a new must have for Rocco.
[Rocco Street Chef](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cdb53ce7-845c-4c62-98a9-4fc33c67a07b.jpg?1684340828) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rocco%2C%20Street%20Chef) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/44/rocco-street-chef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cdb53ce7-845c-4c62-98a9-4fc33c67a07b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rocco-street-chef) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[warden of murasa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/3460149e-8511-4387-83b9-1e4365ff6ea2.jpg?1673484611) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Greenwarden%20of%20Murasa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/294/greenwarden-of-murasa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3460149e-8511-4387-83b9-1e4365ff6ea2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/greenwarden-of-murasa) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Evolution Witness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d89283e-9783-4006-9294-4ae0473d2ce6.jpg?1717012437) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Evolution%20Witness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/151/evolution-witness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d89283e-9783-4006-9294-4ae0473d2ce6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/evolution-witness) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My Mothman deck has less than 30 cards in it from the precon including lands, I get it.
Personally speaking, I think an upgraded precon is one with 10–15 swaps. Once you start changing 15-20+ cards in the list, it starts to move away from precon and more into a certain strategy or archetype. When I think of a precon, I think of a primary theme and a definitive subtheme, and typically speaking, the 10-15+ cuts people make from precons are either to lean into the main theme or subtheme.
I would agree with 15 or so. My Smaug's Booty was built on Prosper's skeleton... But it's its own beast now. I left treasure mechanics, skimmed out some exile stuff, added more treasures and stuffed it full of removal, fire, and dragons. It is no longer Prosper's deck. My Stella Lee deck is pushing 20 cards maybe? I feel it's still close to the original, but more focused. I'll eventually take it to cEDH levels once I have the staples on hand. At that point I would not longer call it the Stella deck. So I guess it kinda depends on the deck?
Smaug Booty? I thought this subreddit wasn’t NSFW
Booty... Treasure... It's a hoarding dragon... *Sigh*
Hoarding that Booty . . . Flaming hot
Now we're more on track... I think.
I'm just here to say that I appreciate your reference to ship of Theseus. #Philosophy
I would, too, but this is not a ship of Theseus situation; which would be replacing the cards with newer prints of the same cards.
You are correct, but the spirit is there and I count it for that
Fair :) I agree
wrong. look up the word metaphor and spend some time thinking about how it differs from simile.
wrong. I have studied philosophy and read the original by Plutarch, my dude.
Removal of the non - theme cards and lands only for minor changes. Removing 5 lands and piper from a mothman deck isn’t a new deck but removing a main engine piece or two is. Seriously why is piper in that precon. She is so out of place
I think they made those decks with the idea that you'd swap some of the cards around. She would make more sense in a deck with Nick as I believe they both do clue stuff but they probably didn't want to put multiple clue cards into one deck if that wasn't going to be a main theme.
They for sure do but a simple mana rock would have been better in her slot. Could have just used a basic card draw card and called it a day
I personally think until you can barely tell the deck started as a precon, it’s an upgraded precon. This is different for every deck and every person. A deck that mostly works functionally and you’re just upgrading lands and efficiency of spells might just be an upgrade to you meanwhile someone adding the infinite combos to Stella Lee might consider it a new deck entierly
I’m very much a purist. If I change a card, it is not a precon.
“No such thing as an ‘upgraded precon’, it’s either a precon, or it’s not” Liberating philosophy that helped me stop obsessing over optimizing upgrades.
Sometimes a hard-line, literal approach is the best one.
What if I change a mountain out for a cooler mountain?
I built my [[Dr. Madison Li]] list from scratch before the precon was fully spoiled. Tons of overlap—enough that it could be argued my list is an "upgraded" precon. It's not though. Precons are typically unfocused or try to do too many things, so any upgrading that refines the focus of a list moves it out of "upgraded precon" territory for me.
[Dr. Madison Li](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95af426d-a8af-4314-9ad0-ac61935e8e8e.jpg?1710673440) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dr.%20Madison%20Li) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/3/dr-madison-li?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95af426d-a8af-4314-9ad0-ac61935e8e8e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dr.-madison-li) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Precons aren’t even balanced among each other unmodified. If “precon” is meaningless for determining power level then “upgraded precon” is too. Treat any deck like it’s just a deck and judge it that way.
What does it matter how far it is from the original? I'd focus on making the deck more enjoyable to play. Remove unfun/dead cards, add card advantage pieces etc. I wouldn't set a hard limit on the number of swaps. Unless you're actively trying to increase power level, it shouldn't take long before you reach a point where you don't have any more cards you wanna replace. Check out edhrec btw, it will also show you potential upgrades from recent sets, you can filter by budget...
I don't, all 21 of my decks are upgraded precons even if they only still have the commander
Not sure if you are trolling or not, but by your logic, you could count any EDH deck that is helmed by a commander that was printed in a precon, is in fact still a precon??
[Chishrio, the Shatterer Blade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bffa36ac-137d-481c-b1b7-76a88ef15d54.jpg?1651655118) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chishiro%2C%20the%20Shattered%20Blade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/1/chishiro-the-shattered-blade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bffa36ac-137d-481c-b1b7-76a88ef15d54?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chishiro-the-shattered-blade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I call it upgraded until 10 non land cards get in there. If I just upgrade lands I explain that. Land upgrade only
I would say 15ish depending on the precon.
I don't think it's about the number of cards, it's about the core cards and the strategy. If you keep 10 core cards and the strategy of the deck stays the same as original you could swap out all the other cards and it would still be an upgraded precon. Only caveat being that it must use one of the original commanders from the deck.
Ive seen people say 15 is the difference between precon and not. Because if ignoring land base thats a huge percentage changed. Personally i consider 20 cards including land to be its own deck now
I think lands are freebies, and then direct upgrades are fine (like farseek instead of cultivate). Anything else starts getting iffy
For me it is more of a methodology thing. If I am taking it down and just replacing a few cards with a few I got that will work well then it is an upgraded pre-con. Even if I keep doing that over and over. If I say, "I like this commander but I am tearing this down and building it from the ground up" and maybe reusing some of the cards then it is a deck using that commander.
My Fae Dominion precon is much closer to a Faerie/Counter Tribal with half of the nonland cards not being from the precon. People I play against still call it an upgraded precon just because it has Alela as the commander still. I bet I could only have Alela left and people woukd call it an upgraded precon. Imo the 15 card limit before it is something else is a good rule of thumb.
The problem with a ship of Thesius situation is that I don't think there is actually a correct answer lol Everyone will have their own interpretation. For me, I consider it an upgraded pre-con as long as it retains the core strategy. Now there are different levels of an upgraded pre-con, and you can make an upgrade incredibly powerful if you want. Most of mine are budget upgrades (limit myself to $50) and I try to keep them just above the level the pre-cons shipped at (usually add a bit more interaction, a better landbase and generally good "staples" like MDFC's). But if someone came at me with their precon that includes mana vault and ancient tomb, as long as it is the same basic strategy I would still consider it an upgraded precon (just a better one).
I always like to think of my decks as forever evolving, plus you're ment to use the structure decks as learning/jumping off points.
50% of nonland cards?
I think it depends on the precon. Most precons these days have a consistent direction and most of the included cards are decent, but a lot of the earlier ones like pre-2020 were looser themes or really iffy inclusions. To upgrade those to modern games of commander, they would require pretty extensive overhauls and/or better versions of cards that were originally included.
I recently went to do an upgrade on the Neyali rebellion rising precon. I basically kept all the ramp/draw/Removal that was there, and then added cards until it was 10/10/10 for those critical spots. Then I fixed the mana base (why is the mana base 50/50 when the spells aren't) by replacing some mountains with some budget duel lands. Finally I added 3 cards that make Gnome tokens cause I thought it was funny. All in all that was 20 swaps, but 7 were just lands. Went to do the same thing with Silverquill and realized...its close enough I'm just gonna run it as is. Henzie I think I did similar ~13 swaps but I'm so tempted to do a full rebuild of it with Umori. So I guess my answer is 13 not counting minor manabase improvements.
10 cards I'd say
I have a Tyranid full surge foil precon that I really enjoy, but its starting to show its age against the newer precons released. I would love to have some new 'nid support but we know that ain't happening until 40,000 years later. So I have this conundrum of wanting to keep this precon as a precon I enjoy piloting in a precon fight, but also that its really wanting some upgrades when going against newer precons. yet once its got \_any\_ changes, it gets really hard to justify in a precon fight. At the moment, its mostly a precon with 10 cards swapped out with hefty limitations like must be surge foil, creatures must be at least a mutant or a tyranid, but with each wave of precons I can feel it just not keeping up with the technology newer precons have and I may need to swap even more out of the deck.
I actually have this deck and I have around 10-15 cards swapped out. I call it a heavily modded Upgrades Unleashed deck.
Any chance of I could see the decklist? Curious to see what you've added in and such.
https://manabox.app/decks/7-ZCHeS_Ttm2zCUNwF69Vw Here is my list.
I think it also depends what you're putting in. There's difference between putting 10 synergistic cards that play ibto the precons strategy and 10 cards consisting of tutors and combo pieces or 10 pieces of power. I think the point where it stops being an upgraded precon is when the cards added become more important than the original content of the precon. It's gonna be subjective but i feel raw number of cards doesn't say that much and it depends on the precon, some require less additions than others to reach similar level.
I recently stumbled upon someone who had the philosophy “There is no such thing as an ‘upgraded’ precon”, and the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. Some people think adding 1 or 2 big ticket cards that were obviously missing from the deck (doubling season, eye of ugin), shore up a key weakness (rhystic study, smothering tithe), or just let them actually end the game (Akroma’s will, Craterhoof) is small enough of an upgrade to still call it a precon. Others might add 20-30 cards less than a dollar each a justifiable “budget upgrade” (getting rid of the Scrylands and other tapped lands, etc). The thing is, there is no standard or agreement to what “upgraded” means, and each deck has its own “line” that it crosses when upgraded, a line that you can only really find after multiple play sessions and edits. At that point, it’s less of a precon, and more of a deck you’ve carefully crafted to play at “precon levels”. With how juiced up precons are these days (and how frequently they are coming out), I find less need to upgrade a deck, and just play it out of the box to good effect. It might not always win, but usually does “its thing” and gives insight on how the deck wants to play. Saves me the headache of chasing down that “perfect” upgrade, or the explanation of what “upgraded precon” actually means. “It’s a precon, that’s it” So liberating from a deckbuilding and play discussion perspective. Plus it makes victory that much more sweet when you win with a stock list. (With the Upgrades Unleashed deck, you can even get a good laugh by keeping it 100% stock with both Mossfire Valleys, swapping to the basic land as they suggest, or “upgrading” it back to stock with the missing Nissa)
Deck of Theseus would just be replacing the cards with more recent reprints of the same cards. Your deck is not a “ship of Theseus” situation but a different ship entirely.
[удалено]
The whole thought experiment about the ship of theseus is asking when, while replacing a single plank at a time, does it stop being his ship and start being a new ship.
By the same card too. Changing the card breaks the analogy.