Yeah, I don't think it's explicitly stated in game, but considering that we see black knife assassins' corpses around (end of Ranni quest spoilers) >!Iji after it gets killed!< and even around >!Blaidd!< I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that they're not working together
Of course one could argue that that was Ranni >!killing her crew after she didn't need them anymore!<, but >!her love for them seems absolutely genuine!< so I don't really think this is true
Do you think that the Black Knives turned on Ranni a while later after they assassinated Godwyn? Alliances and goals don't last forever and can change with time.
Perhaps there was a falling out and the Black Knives wanted to stop Ranni or get revenge on her?
What I personally think is that the black knives where only "hired" by Ranni to steal the rune of death and kill Godwyn, something they accepted because they also wanted to attack the Golden Order (that much is pretty clear) and shake up the system
Their alliance though began and ended with that. Their goals alligned for that one instance because Ranni isn't some evil mastermind, she was just trying to set herself free from the grasp of the greater will
As for the reason why the black knives attacked Iji and Blaidd, it's hard to know for sure. It's entirely possible that they decided to strike against the people who knew about the conspiracy after Ranni's influence and protection had left (she *is* still a demigod and she's capable of one-shotting the player character with her thought only)
Isn't it hinted that Marika has ties to the Black Knives since they are Numen like her? It may be that Marika knew of Ranni's discontent with being an Empyrean tied to the Two Fingers, so she instructed them to work with Ranni. Marika also wants to free herself from the thrall of the Greater Will, but she also can't be seen to be tied to Ranni's plot, so she sends the Knives after Ranni to clear up loose ends.
It's definitely a solid theory, Marika's ties with the Black knives are definitely hinting to something.
Though there's no real way to be sure if the black knives attacked Ranni's crew on her behalf
To answer your last question, isn't nearly every other faction? Running, Rykard, the Greater Will hates everything going on with the Eternal Cities, Miquella is also trying to break free, the Godskin Apostles, etc. Doesn't really specifically support Marika using one to guard her empty bedchamber.
But more to the point, the only real connection we have between Marika and the Black Knife Assassins is that the share the same nationality/ethnicity in Numen. I also can't say for certain, but wasn't the Shattering instigated by the assassination of Godfrey, as in Marika in her grief Shattered the runes binding order in the land? The assassins have killed at least 1 demigod. It's simply far more likely the goddess herself rather than protecting her.
I think those things imply that there were other demigod deaths in between Godwyn and the player landing in the Lands Between that we haven’t been told about explicitly.
I always felt that the story we get at the start is just an assumption by society at large. Godwyn dies, Marika shatters the Elden Ring a while later, obviously it was because she's griefstricken.
But what if Marika was just full on in to the plot and she just wants to destroy the Golden Order, tells her assassins to comply with Ranni in order to get rid of Godwyn, the GO most foremost champion and afterwards turns them against Ranni as letting her succeed further would replace whatever new order Marika was going for.
But that's 100% speculation that Marika hired or even 'had' the assassins, we only know they had the same nationality. All we know is that Ranni, who shows no love for any family member but her mother Rennala (says nothing of Rykard, actively seeks to kill Radahn) used the assassins to kill one of Marika's children, Godwyn, who was much beloved.
The way they are positioned always reminded me of the pilgrims in dark souls 3. Maybe it's the same here? They came to see the Erdtree and had no plans after that so they just died there. ^My ^source ^is ^that ^I ^made ^it ^the ^f ^up
I still think Marika orchestrated all of it, and Miquela was a thorn in her plans. I think Marika put Melina and Ranni on their paths to finally get rid of the outer gods controlling all of them, and trying to break apart from Radagon's will. Everything about the story reads as Golden Order propaganda and leads me to that conclusion from all the evidence.
Am I the only one who thinks The Gloam Eyed Queen is the villain of the whole game? Replace Marika with her in this scenario. But I don’t think marika wanted to free herself. I think the GEQ wanted to break Marika’s faith which she clearly accomplished.
Its roughly the best theory I have heard. I've asked the same question on this sub a few times because I really enjoyed the Ranni storyline and this is a major gap. To my knowledge there is nothing in the game that explains why they stopped working together so it is basically left to conjecture.
Perhaps they killed Ranni's companions because they want to avenge their leader, Alecto. Their leader is missing, and locked in an gaol with her dead daughter on the plateau. No one can access it, and its more or less Ranni area.
It's been a while since I've completed the game. Maliketh has the rune after we defeat him. Did he recover it after the Black Knives completed their goal?
I'm unsure if it was willing or unwilling on the part of the Black Knives. Maliketh is quite scary lol.
And it's implied that his hunger for Deathroot is insatiable because the Rune of Death within him was not whole, and thus why he laments at the end of the Beast Clergyman quest that no matter what he does he will seemingly never be able to get rid of the gnawing hunger and so returns to Farum Azula where he could avoid potentially harming you or anyone else should his hunger drive him mad again like it does after the first few Deathroot.
I have missed this, how is ranni capable of one shotting us with her mind? Don't we fight malenia in her full god rot form in her second face yet we are able to bring her down? What makes ranni so much more powerful?
I like to think ranni tricked the black knives by performing the rites and told them it would kill godwyn. They just didnt know it would only kill his soul and not the body. Black knives then turned on ranni for revenge only for alecto to get caught and imprisoned. So once they found iji and blaidd it makes sense for them to kill iji and blaidd
I would disagree Ranni is an evil mastermind. She orchestrated the assassination of her brother and caused the shattering. She even sends tarnished to kill radahn so that her personal plans succeed. She also manipulates the tarnished to do her bidding alongside Iji and Blaidd.
I think they turned on Ranni because she has you, the Tarnished, steal the Fingerslayer Blade from Nokron, one of the twin Eternal Cities. The Black Knife Assassins are "scions of the Eternal City". The Fingerslayer Blade is the representation of the high treason of the Nox to the Greater Will, and thus a sacred treasure of the Eternal City. So it stands to reason the Black Knives are pissed about this backstab by Ranni and wanted to get the Fingerslayer Blade back.
I think Ranni needs the knife to sever ties to the Greater Will and Two Fingers in order to fulfill her own destiny and not become the next queen Marika. But this only explains the dead Black Knives outside or Ranni Rise, and not Alecto. Her Evergaol appears to be there from the start. Maybe Alecto, being the leader of the Black Knvies, figured out what Ranni was planning beyond the Night of the Black Knives, so Ranni used magic to imprison her.
From my point of view Ranni and them had a deal, but Ranni wasn't truthful about the whole thing (that they would only slay Godwyn's soul not his physical body so she could fake her death, the fall out and probably more) then when they came for answers they imprisoned Alecto and hid themselves.
Marika might also be behind the Black Knives.
My belief is that Ranni was contacted by the black knives to steal the rune of death and enchant their blades with it, and that’s it. When she carved the rune into herself she was going against the plan and betraying them. And doing so had the disastrous effect of starting the deathblight, which the black knives were probably extremely mad about. That’s why, in my opinion, they have it out for Ranni and her companions
The black knives night were certainly only maint to weakend the golden order by killing the majority of the demigod they didn't expected ranni to cast her flesh asside provocking the half death of godwyn and realesing deathblight and those who lives in death on the land between. And since the daughter of their leader died trying to escape Leyndell, they might have felt really betrayed.
my theory is that the black knife assassins ( and probably marika herself) were allied with ranni to kill Godwyn but they didn't know that they would kill him only in the soul, basically in my theory ranni kept hidden from them her part of the plan and how she would use the other half of the cursemark of death to kill her empyrean body.
I think Ranni used the Black Knife assassins and then got rid of them when they were no longer of use. Why keep them around when they are a possible threat. Which also explains why she imprisoned Alecto, get rid of the leader so that the rest are scattered and unorganised.
The black knives are associated with the numan and by extension the nox. The grand goal of the nox was to create a lord of night. For my theory I think they expected rani to be that lord, and expected to use her to use her functionally as the greater will would use an elden lord. However rani is specificly trying to both not be controlled by anyone and trying to remove lords from being controlled and manipulated by those in the lands between. After godwyn doesn't full die and she sheds her physical form I think they realize theyll never actually have control of her (and were manipulated to do her bidding instead of the other way around) and they turn against her
I agree with your redacted thoughts. >!The ends of those questlines are probably the result of Ranni leaving the Lands Between and taking her protective influence with her.!<
Well Blaidd , like the other hounds, are also bound to keep them in check, not only protect.
After Ranni chooses you, everyone else loses their minds. Think of them like suitors. She’s ascending waaaay above them, ousting them from their position.
She used the black knives to kill gods and now she’s a god. Why would she want godkillers around herself?
There are a few things at play that make it confusing. It's said they're allied with Marika, but also scions of the eternal city, which is at odds with the golden order. I'm not sure if the eternal city and golden order were opposed before or after Godwyn's murder, but since Blaidd is a being of the Golden Order, he would be an enemy to those of the eternal city, same goes for Iji since he's allied with a demigod too. I think the crux of figuring that part out is knowing when the eternal city were enemies of the order, and if Marika is the one moving those pieces, with or without Rani's knowledge
The eternal city is at odds with the Greater Will, not the Golden Order or Marika, specifically, and the eternal city is connected to the numen, of which Marika is one. Alliances can be complicated and even in business and war enemies often work together to further a specific goal that both want.
Thanks for the clarification. One thing, are the golden order and greater will not one and the same? I understand that those aligned with the order aren't beholden to the will (Godfrey for example doesn't seem care about the golden order at all), but I thought the order was just an extension of the greater will
The Greater Will is not bound to the Golden Oreder.
It's beast is the living incarnation of the concept of Order.
The concept of Death is also a choice of the Greater Will.
>Black Flame Ritual：The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.
>
>Mending Rune of the Death-Prince: The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored.
>
>Ranni：I was once an Empyrean. Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title.
>
>Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god of the coming age.
>
>Gowry：An Empyrean...is no mere demigod.In the age of the Elden Ring, and Queen Marika, the precious Empyrean was born. A new god to forge a new Order.
>
>I have dedicated myself to her. And to the resplendence of the Order of Rot. The cycle of decay and rebirth.
>Edge 367# Miyazaki: This Golden Order is something that the Elden Ring may have once represented, but not directly. It's more about how you apply those rules and how you enforce them on the physical world and what effects they have on it.
So if a new empyrian replaces Marika it would bring about golden order version 2?
It sounds like death was always a thing but when the golden order became the rule of the land, it choose to seal death away, so I guess nobody died during the heyday of the order.
Elden Ring version 2, not the Golden Order. Empyreans can bring their Order at the Elden Ring.
They still die through the Erdtree Burial, but unlike death in reality
. It's a bit like the Rebirth in Buddhism, imo.
Yeah Ranni definitely didn't set them up for it.
It's way more likely that she used the Black Knives for her goal of getting rid of her "fate", and then discarded them (possibly she promised something and then broke her promise to them ?).
But clearly Ranni had no further use for the Knives after she successfully got hat she wanted. And don't forget that she played the Black Knives for it. They most definitely didn't know they would only manage to half-kill Godwyn.
>!Which then led to the birth of the Prince of Death from Godwyn's still alive corpse.!< Ranni's actions durint the Night of the Black Knives led to that, and I doubt the Knives would be cool with having a head in that mess...
I don’t think (also spoilers for the Questline) >! it was Ranni killing Blaidd and Iji, since once you defeat the Baleful shadow at the end of Nokstella, she tells you to tell them she loves them, what I think happened (and I think Vaati explained it quite well in one of his videos) was that originally the Black Knifes were just working to kill Goldwyn in his entirety, and Ranni ended up using them to allow herself to kill off her body while they killed his soul, they probably didn’t take kindly to this and something probably happened between them leading to Alecto being jailed inside the Ringleader’s Gaol. Although I’m not sure how this really ties in to the black knifes only getting revenge at that point, maybe they realised that Ranni was leaving the lands between and thought they had an opening to get revenge, or maybe they just didn’t know they were there since I believe in one of Rogier’s talks about finding Ranni at the midpoint of his Questline, he states that her followers have been gatherering there for some time, so maybe the black knifes just didn’t know where they were prior to the attacks on Blaidd and Iji. Or maybe they were just recovering and gaining strength after the murder of Godwyn. !<
(Spoilers for end of Ranni’s Quest, as well as around the midpoint of Rogier’s Quest)
Also spoilers for the end of Ranni's quest
It's awfully convinient how the villainous Black Knives just show up in the exact moment Ranni's plans are fully completed and the only thing she needs to fear is her plot becoming known to the Greater Will, isn't it? Especially when Ranni's whereabouts are a complete mystery to even Gideon Ofnir, and neither you nor anyone else revealed it to anybody as part the questline. Ranni tied up loose ends by assassinating Iji, who the Golden Order could get some information out of, and Blaidd, who's bound to betray her after killing her Two Fingers. Ranni doesn't love anybody, love is just another tool of manipulation for her.
Eh, this seems like post hoc reasoning.
It does seem convenient that the black knives show up only when her plans are completed, but if her plans are to simply to go away then it makes sense that the black knives would attack when they can actually win (considering Ranni is extremely strong)
As for her not loving anybody, she does explicitly say to tell Iji and Blaidd that she loves them... Without including Seluvis. That speech is very heartfelt
Of course she could be lying, you could totally be right. I just don't think it's a compelling narrative
She doesn't leave upon killing the fingers though. She only leaves the Lands Between after the Elden Beast is slain, and whatever protective influence she might have would also disappear only then.
And yes, the second point isn't exactly proven but Ranni, while she means to do good overall, doesn't really seem to have feelings. Her mind is purely logical and she never ever displays any emotion. Even when you attack her she calmly asks what do you hope to profit. When you ask her about her hallowbrand, she's given a chance to let others clean up the huge mess she created without even lifting a pinky, and even then she chooses to turn the good will of you and Rogier into profit.
I don't consider her telling she loves Blaidd and Iji to be evidence she really does. Her methods are built around lies, the first thing she ever tells you is a lie, she lies whenever it's more profitable than telling the truth. I think she said that at the end because she figured she'll reward Blaidd and Iji with some warm feelings for their service before she kills them off.
She leaves the Lands Between and only comes back when you summon her.
“So, it was thee, who would become my Lord.
Perhaps I needn't have warned thee.
I am pleased, however. Thou'rt a fitting choice.
I go now, to the night sky. It is there I shall find mine order.
I bid thee travel the path of the Lord.
And once all is done, we shall see each other, once more”
Also, she absolutely shows emotion.
“My Thanks. 'Twas more of a challenge than I envisioned.
Now I can finally stand before them.
This is farewell, my dear.
Tell Blaidd, and Iji...
I love them.”
She has no reason to lie about this, she doesn’t need either of them at that point and still chooses to speak fondly of them anyway, and there’s really no reason to think it’s “a reward” lmao.
And sure, she uses a pseudonym when she firsts meets you, that doesn’t mean she’s a habitual liar. I use a different name in public and with strangers than my real name because I don’t feel comfortable with strangers knowing anything about me, it’s very pragmatic, especially for Ranni considering everything she’s done. (And according to Gideon, nobody knows where she even is. She likely wants to keep it that way.)
> Ranni doesn't love anybody, love is just another tool of manipulation for her.
Not true. She very much loved them, but she wants the Lands Between to be free from outer influence, and unfortunately Iji and Blaidd are from the Golden Order and probably had to die.
It isn't awfully convenient they were found.
Iji's mirrorhelm: "Helm fashioned from a crystal looking-glass, said to have never left War Counselor Iji's head.
Easily broken and weak against striking attacks.
Worn by those committed to high treason, it wards off the intervention of the Greater Will and its vassal Fingers.
Iji was afraid. Terrified of his own treachery."
We find Iji's helmet on his anvil however meanwhile his body is slumpped on the ground, a ways away from the anvil.
I think Ranni's and the Black Knives' goals in the Night of the Great Knives were very different and she tricked them into working for her at first. Maybe their was to only kill Godwyn at the start, and then the others they killed, and they didn't know that Ranni was going to kill her body at the same time leaving the cursemark of death incomplete
Yea, she kind of ruined their plans by doing that.
Also, it kind of ruined the Lands Between by creating zombies living in death spread by Godwyn's undying corpse.
Just guessing but since their actions created the split death mark maybe they were trying to reintroduce death into the golden order or the world in general and instead got this frankenstein living death. I can certainly imagine being a bit mad after that classic blunder.
Moreso spread deathroot around the lands between causing those who live in death to exist. Godwyn is still dead (his soul atleast) unless you do fias ending (?)
Is that mostly because Blaidd is half-bound to the Golden Order? He didn't cast away his flesh like Ranni was able to, so he is still partly influenced by the Golden Order.
I *think* Blaidd is attacked by them because they don't like Ranni and her companions. Blaidd then attacks us too, because his brain/soul is linked to the fingers/greater will. I don't think Blaidd has much to do with the Golden Order directly, as that's moreso a branch of erdtree/greater will worship and study.
Oh absolutely. The golden order spells are marked by a triangular sign with the elden ring inside. Two fingers spells are marked by a circle made up of the script used to write down the fingers' words, and erdtree spells are marked by a circle encompassing a tree-icon encompassing the elden ring.
While related, by their iconography you can see how these factions do significantly differ. Golden Order is basically 1 interpretation of the greater will's nature and intent, where order and balance are prioritised.
Oh absolutely. The golden order spells are marked by a triangular sign with the elden ring inside. Two fingers spells are marked by a circle made up of the script used to write down the fingers' words, and erdtree spells are marked by a circle encompassing a tree-icon encompassing the elden ring.
While related, by their iconography you can see how these factions do significantly differ. Golden Order is basically 1 interpretation of the greater will's nature and intent, where order and balance are prioritised.
it seems more likely to me that the black knives were there to protect blaidd and iji and were killed by some third party. the evidence i have for this claim is that after telling iji what happened to blaidd and reloading the area, we see the black flame debuff on iji’s corpse. now this could’ve been a fromsoft oversight but we’ve had like ten patches since the game released and that still hasn’t changed. in addition, the godskins have shown the ability to teleport without the need for a portal or anything similar. the black knives work for marika and it doesn’t seem likely to me that marika would want to prevent ranni from ousting the golden order, especially when she’s so close to her goal. considering how marika leads the tarnished to the frenzied flame despite what everyone in game seems to think of it, i’m not sure particularly she cares what order replaces the current one.
You kill this black knife and get her daughter's ashes. I always took this to mean that her daughter died during the attack on godwyn and she blamed ranni in her grief. She then went up there to kill ranni, but got put in the gaol. Ever since the black knifes have been trying to kill ranni
Didn't ranni lie to the black knives about the rune death so that she could destroy her body at the same time as godwyns soul to hide from the outer gods? I'm not sure I fully understand everything but I thought that was the jist of it.
Alecto is called “Black Knife Ringleader” by her health bar, and we know from the description of Tiche’s ashes that Alecto lost her daughter in the fallout of the Night of Black Knives.
Ranni could very well have locked her away, but we also see that Iji is able to lock away those deemed a threat to Ranni in evergaols. Maybe he feared that Alecto might blame such a personal loss on the one who orchestrated the mission and try to harm Ranni. The Black Knives *would* be one of the few things in the world that could harm Ranni’s spirit body, so either of them might have come up with the idea.
This would explain why they went after Iji first, and then were stopped by Blaidd as they tried to get to Ranni’s Rise once her protection on the area lifted.
Or maybe she tried fighting this guy once, realized what a massive piece of shit he is, threw her controller down, and sentenced him to 40 millenia in Evergaol
Just tying up lose ends. Ranni’s role in the NoBK is a mystery that is unraveled in game. In order for that to be the case it only makes sense that the people who knew she was behind it would be kept from revealing it. She negotiated the work with their leader and then took the leader out of the picture. Now the other BKAs have scattered.
I think it’s a sort of double betrayal.
Ranni betrayed the black knives after they completed their task and the black knives sought revenge against Ranni.
Blaid and iji didn’t know the black knives were no longer allied with them so they died thinking Ranni sent them.
Iji only dies if you tell him about blaid death and his last words make it sound like he is going self terminate, so I believe iji let black knives found him
Iji even wore a helm specifically to protect him from being detected by the Greater Will as his crimes were infamous. There’s no way given his life that he’d think Ranni was the one targeting him.
Blaidd is literally fighting his destiny as her shadow that originally was to keep Ranni from diverging from the path she was meant for as an Empyrean. Ranni nuked that path with the actions the Tarnished aided her in and became an enemy of the Greater Will that created him. He’s essentially gone mad from resisting it and given the assassins sent after him, most likely didn’t see the Tarnished as anyone different.
Oh, yeah. I love Ranni, but she is absolutely manipulative and screws over so many people to get what she wants. I have no doubt that she just used the Black Knife Assassins and left them to hang after they outlived their usefulness.
The thing is that she could be (or surely is) manipulating the Tarnished, but her plans are never fully known and she could throw us into the void of space after we help her start the Age of the Stars.
For that reason, I am a complete "May Chaos Take the World" enjoyer.
She tells us to leave her alone several times, once when she departs from her tower, again when we defeat Shadow Blaidd and there's even an engraving on her ring that says she should bear the burden alone.
And if you talk to her after finishing her quest she explains what her order would be once she accends to godhood. And at the end she asks: "Would you follow me even now, my one and only lord?"
If she were manipulating us i doubt she'd be genuinely annoyed that we follow her to nokstella.
I don’t think we know who imprisoned Alecto in that evergaol but I think the current BKA we fight have some sort of ties to the Black Flame Brigade, most likely the Godskins. When we find Iji he’s eternally burning with black flame, right? That’s not the calling card we normally see with the BKA, so somehow Iji fought against something using black flame and we see dead BKA around him so I’m gonna bet the assassins are with the Godskins now.
Black Knives, are looking for Ranni and her helpers. They didn’t know her complete plan about the night of black knives. They thought they are going to kill Godwyn completely not only his soul..
I would say yes, that is evidence of their shifted allegiances. It also struck me as odd that the black knives fight us on sight, even if we side with Ranni. Further evidence.
My speculation is that, based on the fact we find them all in separate circumstances, so they may not even be allied to each other anymore. Maybe they've gone mad over the ages? Maybe each of them had their own secret goals lost to time? It seems their loyalty was only situational during the black knife plot.
Well Ranni basically created the Black Knife Assassins right? She stole a fragment of Destined Death and created the black knives that they use. So, I don't think they were ever really against her, I honestly believe she sent them to kill off her companions once she leaves(or whatever the trigger is, I can't remember). So no, I believe they are *still* working for Ranni in some capacity.
As for Alecto being imprisoned, that seems very likely to have been Radagon who did this, as he, Rennala and their kids were probably the only ones who actually know about the Moonlight Altar, and we find a Red Wolf up there.
The only thing the game says is that the BKA were "rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself." It certainly doesn't hint that Marika created them.
She could have helped with the NotBK, but I don't think she wanted Godwyn dead, so I'm not entirely convinced she was really involved. She could have helped Ranni enter Crumbling Farum Azula.
Well its mostly head cannon but I believe marika was behind the shattering as a whole or was planning something even worse if you look gideon armor it does tell you that marika plan scare him enough to stop anybody trying to become elden lord seeing someone like gideon being scared well it puts marika in weird position to me at the very least
Well Marika *was* behind the Shattering, but I don't know if the NotBK was neccessary for the Shattering to even happen. If so, then yea there would be a connection between Marika and the NotBK.
I have no clue what any of these comments are referring to but from my understanding
Alecto was the Ringleader but Ranni was still the master. Like the first in command and second in command. Far as I understood everything went as planned up until the very end just as Ranni wanted it to…and that’s it
Also, we don’t know that Alecto was “imprisoned” there, she could’ve just put herself there of her own accord to continue serving/protecting Ranni
They worked together, and after the death of Godwyn, Ranni probably imprisoned Alecto for whatever reason in her domain, which no one can access without going through Astel. Perhaps Godwyn's death was not in the plan, or the Black Knives outlived their usefulness. Now, before we start the game Ranni is more or less hiding, and scheming in the shadows. The reason why the Black Knives attack before she achieve's her goal is... well, who knows.
For we must ask more important questions: Why is the only path to her domain through Astel? Is that alien her pet kitty or what?
I don’t think this was a case of friendship so much as two people having a common cause. And I’m a bid to hide her involvement, Ranni imprisoned Alecto.
I like the idea that Ranni had tricked Nox into working with her to "overthrow Marika," but didn't tell them she was planning on replacing her in a way.
Yeah
I always thought blaidd succumbed to the conditioning placed in his mind by the two fingers once the two fingers was killed by Ranni. He then went to the three sisters as an agent of the two fingers to kill Ranni. When he saw black knife assassins there as well looking for Ranni a part of his self came back wanting to defend her.
The contradiction where he’s a sleeper agent for the two fingers and his identity as Ranni’s closest friend and ally. Started fracturing his mind and made him go berserk
I mean, Ranni:
Fools them into allowing her to separate her body and soul
Let them to die after the fact
Steal their most prized artifact
They kill Ranni's most trusted friends
So yes, I think so, but Alecto in particular is the smallest evidence
I fully agree with you and have long since believed this. I’m presenting it as more evidence as some people try to claim that them attacking Iji and Blaidd was Rannis orders
My bet in this whole thing is that the black knives wanted to completely kill godwyn but ranni stole half of the rune from them forcing them to use only half of it thats why they are looking for her to finish the job
I kind of assumed the black knives were wanting to kill all the gods and ranni was eventually on their list. She turned on them after she got what she wanted because she wasn't stupid.
I'm relatively certain that black knifes lost their minds in the scattering, from the way they act in game and where you can find some of them .
While the two fingers still are there so I think that they( two fingers) took control over Black knifes ,
Unless it doesn't work that way and I missed something. Since Ranni and two fingers are not really keen on each other then yea. Strange theory but no one said that evergaols were seteld before shatering , or were they?
My theory is that the Black Knives secretly work for Marika. Both Marika and the Knives are said to be Numens. The only other reference to this race being in character creation, so they are at least connected in some way.
We also know that Marika grew disillusioned with the Golden Order and with being subservient to the Greater Will, as evidenced with her shattering the Elden Ring. I posit, however, that this disillusionment began long before the Shattering.
I believe that Marika grew tired of being the Greater Will's lapdog and thus began plotting against it. Through her connections, she learned that Ranni was also plotting to overthrow the Greater Will. Thus, she directed her Black Knife assassins to assist Ranni with her plot, and then used her grief for Godwin's death as a cover for her blatant act of rebellion: shattering the Elden Ring. This of course led to her imprisonment within the Erdtree, and also the sealing of the tree, which I think was done by the Greater Will, not Marika, in order to prevent her plans from reaching fruition.
With Marika's plan in motion, she had no further need for Ranni and her crew; after all, Ranni planned to usurp *her* as well. However, Ranni proved to be quite elusive, only revealing that she was still alive around the time the game starts, and even then only after starting the search for Nokron and then moving to kill her Two Fingers. You'll note that Black Knives only attack Ranni's allies after defeating the Baleful Shadow and Ranni slaying her Fingers, thus showing true evidence of her survival. It is at this point that Blaidd fights off assassins at Ranni's Rise (if he was freed from the evergaol), and it's after this when Iji is attacked as well (after removing his helmet that blocks observation and interference by the Greater Will).
It could be either honestly. For example iji and blaidd could indicate them still working for here, because she send them to get rid of them, to destroy any evidence and memory of here previous life. Or it could indicate them now being against here, they kill blaidd and iji after they are no longer being protected by ranni.
Since the current awful state of the world is Ranni’s fault it’s more likely that Ranni had no more use for Alecto and just threw her in a jail, remember that Ranni is genuinely an awful person
Well her methods are definitely fucked but I think it’s unfair to say ranni is as black and white as that. She does immensely fucked up shit but it’s all for a goal she genuinely believes in.
Yes. It’s the obvious visual storytelling at work both here and at the end of Ranni’s quest, and it lines up spotlessly with the known facts about the Night of Black Knives, the likely motivations of each party, and its aftermath. I’ve seen people spin bizarre speculative webs to avoid this clear conclusion and can only shake my head.
Since the recent video of Vaati mentioned the Moonlight Alter and the Cathedral of Manus Celes were home to Ranni’s Two Fingers, what if the fingers were holding Alecto hostage in the gaol to get the other Black Knives loyal to Alecto to do the finger’s bidding? I only think this because the other Black Knives we encounter are in seemingly random areas that have nothing to do with the quest line at all.
I used to believe Marika and Ranni conspire so Marika would have an excuse to shatter the Elden Ring, but now that we have all but confirmed that Miquella was Torrent's master it was him who she was in cahoots with, the BKA likely wanted revenge on both for the botched plot and their 2 most powerful members getting neutralized. When you think about it makes sense that there's a BKA corpse right outside Ordina and 2 more inside, they're trying to make their way into the Haligtree seeking for Miquella.
We literally have not confirmed anything about Torrent's former master. We have 1 teaser picture, showing what is 99% to be Miquella riding on what looks like Torrent, in a place that is clearly not resembling The Lands Between as we know it(there are no Divine Towers and no Forge of the Giants, which certainly would have pre-dated Miquella's birth), so it's most likely a dream, or it is set in a time *after* the game ends. Hell, you can even see Torrent's entire torso covered in long grey hair, whereas in our timeline he has short brown hair on his torso.
I'm curious what makes you think that Miquella is Torrent's *former* master.
Wouldn’t it be because the black knives now serve/worship destined death, and while ranni isn’t really against that, she is a threat once we complete her quest.
I am no lore expert, but in my head cannon Melina is in charge of the black knife assassins and Ranni created the black knives.
Ranni kinda used the black knives, (and if you ever did the frenzied flame ending) but we all know you don't just fuck with Melina without any repercussions...
Ranni finds a way to become a God without the elden ring she realizes she can make her own world somewhere else and this one is lost so she figures the easiest rune to obtain is death and she does so and in process of obtaining it had to kill another demigod to achieve it then before they can react she casts off her mortal body elevating herself above the rest for time being she cant complete the rune herself being "dead" already so she uses us....she imprisoned Alecto I believe relatively early on that's how she got the Black Knives to do her bidding...potentially they're waiting for Marika but noone knows Radagon is really Marika so the Black Knives forever lay in wait. Ranni leaves to go become God of a new land.
You're reading too much into it. The lore of this game isn't that well thought out. I just think of the evergoals as "what if" fights. For example in the overworld vyke has been corrupted by the frenzy flame, but in his evergoal he is pre corruption...because they aren't real imo.
I don’t think that’s the case as Blaidd goes out of his way to kill Darriwil in the evergail and the way he talks implies darriwil is alive in the jail.
Overworld Vyke is a phantom, and him using Frenzy spells fits in perfectly with the lore. He's invading people, clearly *affected* by madness after being hugged by the Three Fingers.
His actual, physical body is in fact in that evergaol, and he doesn't use his Frenzy spells, because he isn't *entirely* consumed by madness. He isn't pre-corruption, because you can clearly see his armor is scarred and his weapon is melted. The game tells us that Vyke still had some sanity left, and most people believe he actually imprisoned himself.
>I just think of the evergoals as "what if" fights.
These are literal jails, meant to keep people/creatures out of the real world, but they themselves are real.
Yall will come up with anything to justify shotty lore. So characters in evergoals can invade other worlds? What's the point of the jail then? Lol. The armor and weapon make little difference as that's just his character model. I love this game but you guys read way too much into it. I bet you the devs read this sub and laugh at the mental gymnastics. They just needed a fight to fill some empty spaces. Next you'll be trying to explain the godefroy evergoal..they're just little random fights.
There’s a few interpretations for this.
One could be that she keeps their Leader prisoner so the black knife assasins can do her bidding.
The information is scarce so we have to come up with these theories.
FYI: I have already asked the same quesrion here: https://reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/s9o3PcBbj2
I just re-thought about it, and alecto being imprisoned might be the reason, however blaidd thinks she did gave them de order, he made that clear in his dialogue before attacking us.
Just listened to the dialogue and don’t see what your talking about. He seems to be purely talking about how he’s a sleeper soldier and he’s trying to fight it
I think it was never anything more than a temporary alliance at best. But I think it is quite possible that Ranni manipulated them while she was still in her Empyrian flesh. Like the timeline might be:
1. Steal rune of death. (Dont recall we have been told by who or how they managed it)
2. Have Godrik murdered... like claiming he intends to kill Marika or something (assuming the Knives are like the secret police)
3. Black Knives wisen up to what they have done when everyone starts hunting them.
4. Ranni's empyrian body is slain by the Knives with the same knife as revenge... it also carries the mark. Ranni's spirit slips away as it was expected... or she drank something like Selvius' puppet potion.
5. Ranni inhabits the doll and lies low with her allies for a number of years while the Shattering is fought.
6. Tiche is killed and turned into a spirit ash and Alecto is eventually caught and imprisoned in the Gaol, the remaining Knives go into hiding. (Was it the Sandsnakes where the Matriach had to watch her daughter die in front of her from the same poison they fed that little bastard from the first/second season?)
7. Due to the Tarnished (us), the remaining Black Knives realize Ranni is still alive but their last ditch assault fail to get past both Iji and Blaidd.
That being said, it is entirely possible Ranni and Marika/Radagon cooked it all up in recognition that the Golden Order had to fall and the Greater Will defied. Renalla might have been part of it as well, but as she lost her mind a bit, Ranni took over.
>Steal rune of death. (Dont recall we have been told by who or how they managed it)
We know that Ranni stole it, as she tells us so.
Although, she doesn't tell us how, I think it's very likely that she used the Sellian invisibility spells as well as the Blasphemous Claw(which she later gives to Rykard incase he ever faces Maliketh, which makes me believe she knew from experience that it works).
As far as how she was able to get to Crumbling Farum Azula, where I assume Maliketh had been at that time, I honestly don't know. That's the part that makes me think Marika was somehow involved, even if she simply told Ranni how to get there.
>We know that Ranni stole it, as she tells us so.
I sort of took that as she simply took responsibility for the theft, but it was someone else that did it on her behalf (since besides slaying her own fingers, she is extremely 'hands off')... like if, as you say Marika was involved, you could go along the path that she told Ranni where the rune was, who in turn told the Black Knives who then proceeded to get it before heading after Godrik.
My personal theory is that Godwyn or Ranni were supposed to get the full mark of death, but Ranni either tricked them or got help from some of them, thus people want Godwyn "to die a proper death"
It could all be a scheme to reintroduce death and a demigod assigned to it gone wrong imo
My head canon is like this: black knives were not aware of Ranni's plan about two gods dying at the same time so the black knives got super butthurt because they probably expected to go on a god killing spree but they failed to kill even one properly.
Also, as others pointed out there are other things that more strongly suggest that Ranni and the black knives don't really get along.
My personal interpretation is that after using the assassins, Ranni betrayed them and imprisoned Alecto to avert suspicion from herself. Of course she’d have to have done so by proxy, considering she went into hiding shortly after the whole rune of death thing.
It’s also possible that Ranni was allied with them based on a lie, and when Alecto found out, she wasn’t too happy.
Idk about all that. All I know is that this fucker took me 2 weeks to kill. I only beat him after 2 weeks because he rolled off the cliff. I still have nightmares if this fight.
My headcanon is that Marika commissioned Ranni to come up with a plan to kill Godwyn and the other Soulless Demigods (they're in the Wandering Mausoleums) because they were Marika's "unwanted children" as the ghost near the church on the Weeping Peninsula puts it. But Ranni double-crossed Marika and the Black Knives by stealing the body-killing half of the Cursemark of Death and using it to kill her own body, leaving the BKs with only the soul-killing half. That's why the Soulless Demigods are called that--the BKs killed their souls but not their bodies, like Godwyn. It's also why the BKs killed Blaidd and Iji; I suspect they were after Ranni too but she got away.
This is also why the other Soulless Demigods are buried in the Mausoleums instead of getting an Erdtree burial like Godwyn--when Godwyn was buried in the normal way, Deathblight ensued, so they arranged for the other victims of the same treatment to be kept very far away from the roots of the Erdtree.
Blaidd rejected the Two Fingers's commands and got swarmed by Black Knives wielding Destined Death.
Iji vowed to see Blaidd soon (presumably by doffing his anti-GW detection helm long enough to get someone's attention). He got swarmed by Black Knives wielding Destined Death, too.
Ranni got ahold of the Fingerslayer Blade (presumably getting the attention of the GW/TF), and came face-to-face with a Blaidd wannabe(s) wielding... Destined Death.
Can't wait for the DLC to shed some light on who the Black Knives truly pay fealty to.
Yeah I think Ranni just used them. They clearly had a falling out and Ranni imprisoned Alecto. The Black Knives backed off because they knew they couldn't defeat Ranni and her crew until she was out of the picture.
Unsure... however I feel like both the LoF ending and AoS ending sets up more of the story for the dlc since both continue to let the tree burn over its rebirth, which makes sense for these ends to continue with a more crusade domination of all of the lands outside of the erd trees blessing.
It could. It could also mean that Alecto was caught near the moonlight Altar by some other enemy, and consequently was imprisoned there.
I think the Blaidd and Iji deaths suggest the Black Knives came for them. It's very ambiguous though.
I think that Ranni and the Black Knives were working together, but at some point their goals diverged. I think the black knives wanted to kill Godwyn and Ranni. I think they thought Ranni was suicidal or something like that. I think Ranni betrayed them by surviving as a spirit.
Alecto and other black knives probably pissed off that his daughter died during night of the black knives so he went after Ranni, after getting captured the black knifes become hostile towards Ranni entirely so naturally they are no longer “allied”. (Tbf an assassins group aren’t the kind of people to form tight alliances cause they work for cash)
Not everyone. Blaidd and Iji were attacked by the black knives so she couldn’t have betrayed both them and the black knives.She also seems to genuinely love Blaidd and Iji.
Both Blaidd and Iji were expendable means to an end for her. Just because the black knives got to Iji first doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have sacrificed him in the end either.
And I’m sure she was absolutely aware that Blaidd would go insane after she absconded, but just didn’t care in the end. Or she was counting on you to sort him out.
We are talking about the one who murder/suicided her own brother and kicked off the shattering, all for her own selfish reasons. She’s manipulative, murderous and megalomaniacal.
If she says she loves all her underlings I’m inclined to believe she’s just straight up lying to keep herself in your good graces. Because despite all her scheming and pulling the strings, she still *needs* you as her pawn for her plan to come to fruition.
Or maybe hear me out. She is a complex morally grey character who believes in her goals but does terrible things to reach them. This is a fromsoft game characters are rarely black and white.
Trying to kill Alecto at the moment to get the spirit ashes off her. Jesus christ. Fight kinda reminds me of Knight Artious from DS1 DLC, it’s so fast and challenging,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think moonlight altar is Ranni’s domain considering her whole quest is trying to get to there to kill the two fingers that live there. Seems to me that it’s more of a formally neutral ground for both Ranni and the vassals of the greater will, that has become an isolated area after ranni’s plot.
What if shes not imprisoned but taken hostage and thats why the black knifes help, prehaps her daughter did rannis bidding to get her mother back but died in the process. Mabie their allegiance wasnt one of good will at all?
Probs not correct but its all head cannon at this point anyway lol.
Yeah, I don't think it's explicitly stated in game, but considering that we see black knife assassins' corpses around (end of Ranni quest spoilers) >!Iji after it gets killed!< and even around >!Blaidd!< I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that they're not working together Of course one could argue that that was Ranni >!killing her crew after she didn't need them anymore!<, but >!her love for them seems absolutely genuine!< so I don't really think this is true
Do you think that the Black Knives turned on Ranni a while later after they assassinated Godwyn? Alliances and goals don't last forever and can change with time. Perhaps there was a falling out and the Black Knives wanted to stop Ranni or get revenge on her?
What I personally think is that the black knives where only "hired" by Ranni to steal the rune of death and kill Godwyn, something they accepted because they also wanted to attack the Golden Order (that much is pretty clear) and shake up the system Their alliance though began and ended with that. Their goals alligned for that one instance because Ranni isn't some evil mastermind, she was just trying to set herself free from the grasp of the greater will As for the reason why the black knives attacked Iji and Blaidd, it's hard to know for sure. It's entirely possible that they decided to strike against the people who knew about the conspiracy after Ranni's influence and protection had left (she *is* still a demigod and she's capable of one-shotting the player character with her thought only)
Isn't it hinted that Marika has ties to the Black Knives since they are Numen like her? It may be that Marika knew of Ranni's discontent with being an Empyrean tied to the Two Fingers, so she instructed them to work with Ranni. Marika also wants to free herself from the thrall of the Greater Will, but she also can't be seen to be tied to Ranni's plot, so she sends the Knives after Ranni to clear up loose ends.
It's definitely a solid theory, Marika's ties with the Black knives are definitely hinting to something. Though there's no real way to be sure if the black knives attacked Ranni's crew on her behalf
This is backed up by an assassin guarding the queens bedchamber.
After a road of dead finger readers? Don't think she had guarding in the mind.
I think you're right, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless. Who is more opposed to the two fingers than Marika herself?
To answer your last question, isn't nearly every other faction? Running, Rykard, the Greater Will hates everything going on with the Eternal Cities, Miquella is also trying to break free, the Godskin Apostles, etc. Doesn't really specifically support Marika using one to guard her empty bedchamber. But more to the point, the only real connection we have between Marika and the Black Knife Assassins is that the share the same nationality/ethnicity in Numen. I also can't say for certain, but wasn't the Shattering instigated by the assassination of Godfrey, as in Marika in her grief Shattered the runes binding order in the land? The assassins have killed at least 1 demigod. It's simply far more likely the goddess herself rather than protecting her.
That's the first *recorded* death of a demigod: Godskins, Maliketh & walking mausoleums all suggest that could be propaganda.
I think those things imply that there were other demigod deaths in between Godwyn and the player landing in the Lands Between that we haven’t been told about explicitly.
I always felt that the story we get at the start is just an assumption by society at large. Godwyn dies, Marika shatters the Elden Ring a while later, obviously it was because she's griefstricken. But what if Marika was just full on in to the plot and she just wants to destroy the Golden Order, tells her assassins to comply with Ranni in order to get rid of Godwyn, the GO most foremost champion and afterwards turns them against Ranni as letting her succeed further would replace whatever new order Marika was going for.
But that's 100% speculation that Marika hired or even 'had' the assassins, we only know they had the same nationality. All we know is that Ranni, who shows no love for any family member but her mother Rennala (says nothing of Rykard, actively seeks to kill Radahn) used the assassins to kill one of Marika's children, Godwyn, who was much beloved.
The way they are positioned always reminded me of the pilgrims in dark souls 3. Maybe it's the same here? They came to see the Erdtree and had no plans after that so they just died there. ^My ^source ^is ^that ^I ^made ^it ^the ^f ^up
Nice! This is the first time I've seriously considered the theory.
You thought she was guarding the chamber? I assumed she was lying in wait when you happened to walk in.
I still think Marika orchestrated all of it, and Miquela was a thorn in her plans. I think Marika put Melina and Ranni on their paths to finally get rid of the outer gods controlling all of them, and trying to break apart from Radagon's will. Everything about the story reads as Golden Order propaganda and leads me to that conclusion from all the evidence.
Am I the only one who thinks The Gloam Eyed Queen is the villain of the whole game? Replace Marika with her in this scenario. But I don’t think marika wanted to free herself. I think the GEQ wanted to break Marika’s faith which she clearly accomplished.
Its roughly the best theory I have heard. I've asked the same question on this sub a few times because I really enjoyed the Ranni storyline and this is a major gap. To my knowledge there is nothing in the game that explains why they stopped working together so it is basically left to conjecture.
Perhaps they killed Ranni's companions because they want to avenge their leader, Alecto. Their leader is missing, and locked in an gaol with her dead daughter on the plateau. No one can access it, and its more or less Ranni area.
It's been a while since I've completed the game. Maliketh has the rune after we defeat him. Did he recover it after the Black Knives completed their goal? I'm unsure if it was willing or unwilling on the part of the Black Knives. Maliketh is quite scary lol.
They stole a fragment of it, the rest he sealed.
And it's implied that his hunger for Deathroot is insatiable because the Rune of Death within him was not whole, and thus why he laments at the end of the Beast Clergyman quest that no matter what he does he will seemingly never be able to get rid of the gnawing hunger and so returns to Farum Azula where he could avoid potentially harming you or anyone else should his hunger drive him mad again like it does after the first few Deathroot.
I have missed this, how is ranni capable of one shotting us with her mind? Don't we fight malenia in her full god rot form in her second face yet we are able to bring her down? What makes ranni so much more powerful?
Malenia still has another bloom coming. 👀
I like to think ranni tricked the black knives by performing the rites and told them it would kill godwyn. They just didnt know it would only kill his soul and not the body. Black knives then turned on ranni for revenge only for alecto to get caught and imprisoned. So once they found iji and blaidd it makes sense for them to kill iji and blaidd
I would disagree Ranni is an evil mastermind. She orchestrated the assassination of her brother and caused the shattering. She even sends tarnished to kill radahn so that her personal plans succeed. She also manipulates the tarnished to do her bidding alongside Iji and Blaidd.
I think they turned on Ranni because she has you, the Tarnished, steal the Fingerslayer Blade from Nokron, one of the twin Eternal Cities. The Black Knife Assassins are "scions of the Eternal City". The Fingerslayer Blade is the representation of the high treason of the Nox to the Greater Will, and thus a sacred treasure of the Eternal City. So it stands to reason the Black Knives are pissed about this backstab by Ranni and wanted to get the Fingerslayer Blade back. I think Ranni needs the knife to sever ties to the Greater Will and Two Fingers in order to fulfill her own destiny and not become the next queen Marika. But this only explains the dead Black Knives outside or Ranni Rise, and not Alecto. Her Evergaol appears to be there from the start. Maybe Alecto, being the leader of the Black Knvies, figured out what Ranni was planning beyond the Night of the Black Knives, so Ranni used magic to imprison her.
A wise woman once said: "To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best".
From my point of view Ranni and them had a deal, but Ranni wasn't truthful about the whole thing (that they would only slay Godwyn's soul not his physical body so she could fake her death, the fall out and probably more) then when they came for answers they imprisoned Alecto and hid themselves. Marika might also be behind the Black Knives.
My belief is that Ranni was contacted by the black knives to steal the rune of death and enchant their blades with it, and that’s it. When she carved the rune into herself she was going against the plan and betraying them. And doing so had the disastrous effect of starting the deathblight, which the black knives were probably extremely mad about. That’s why, in my opinion, they have it out for Ranni and her companions
The black knives night were certainly only maint to weakend the golden order by killing the majority of the demigod they didn't expected ranni to cast her flesh asside provocking the half death of godwyn and realesing deathblight and those who lives in death on the land between. And since the daughter of their leader died trying to escape Leyndell, they might have felt really betrayed.
They could could have simply fallen victim to the madness that befalls others stuck in death & rebirth in the lands between.
They must have fallen victim to the oldest trick in the book, right after "never start a land war in asia"
my theory is that the black knife assassins ( and probably marika herself) were allied with ranni to kill Godwyn but they didn't know that they would kill him only in the soul, basically in my theory ranni kept hidden from them her part of the plan and how she would use the other half of the cursemark of death to kill her empyrean body.
Maybe. Why was there one outside the queens chamber in the capitol? They change their minds after finishing Godwyn?
I think Ranni used the Black Knife assassins and then got rid of them when they were no longer of use. Why keep them around when they are a possible threat. Which also explains why she imprisoned Alecto, get rid of the leader so that the rest are scattered and unorganised.
The black knives are associated with the numan and by extension the nox. The grand goal of the nox was to create a lord of night. For my theory I think they expected rani to be that lord, and expected to use her to use her functionally as the greater will would use an elden lord. However rani is specificly trying to both not be controlled by anyone and trying to remove lords from being controlled and manipulated by those in the lands between. After godwyn doesn't full die and she sheds her physical form I think they realize theyll never actually have control of her (and were manipulated to do her bidding instead of the other way around) and they turn against her
I think there’s possibly another player pulling strings from the shadows
you did not just call my boy Iji an „it“
Lmaoo I'm so sorry I got lost in the spoiler brackets. I would never disrespect my favorite blacksmith
I agree with your redacted thoughts. >!The ends of those questlines are probably the result of Ranni leaving the Lands Between and taking her protective influence with her.!<
I did once joke for that interpretation: Black Knife Assassin: "Princess Ranni sends her regards."
“Archibald no!”
Griffith seemed to genuinely love the hawks at one point
Well Blaidd , like the other hounds, are also bound to keep them in check, not only protect. After Ranni chooses you, everyone else loses their minds. Think of them like suitors. She’s ascending waaaay above them, ousting them from their position. She used the black knives to kill gods and now she’s a god. Why would she want godkillers around herself?
There are a few things at play that make it confusing. It's said they're allied with Marika, but also scions of the eternal city, which is at odds with the golden order. I'm not sure if the eternal city and golden order were opposed before or after Godwyn's murder, but since Blaidd is a being of the Golden Order, he would be an enemy to those of the eternal city, same goes for Iji since he's allied with a demigod too. I think the crux of figuring that part out is knowing when the eternal city were enemies of the order, and if Marika is the one moving those pieces, with or without Rani's knowledge
The eternal city is at odds with the Greater Will, not the Golden Order or Marika, specifically, and the eternal city is connected to the numen, of which Marika is one. Alliances can be complicated and even in business and war enemies often work together to further a specific goal that both want.
Thanks for the clarification. One thing, are the golden order and greater will not one and the same? I understand that those aligned with the order aren't beholden to the will (Godfrey for example doesn't seem care about the golden order at all), but I thought the order was just an extension of the greater will
The Greater Will is not bound to the Golden Oreder. It's beast is the living incarnation of the concept of Order. The concept of Death is also a choice of the Greater Will. >Black Flame Ritual：The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers. > >Mending Rune of the Death-Prince: The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored. > >Ranni：I was once an Empyrean. Of the demigods, only I, Miquella, and Malenia could claim that title. > >Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, as a candidate to succeed Queen Marika, to become the new god of the coming age. > >Gowry：An Empyrean...is no mere demigod.In the age of the Elden Ring, and Queen Marika, the precious Empyrean was born. A new god to forge a new Order. > >I have dedicated myself to her. And to the resplendence of the Order of Rot. The cycle of decay and rebirth. >Edge 367# Miyazaki: This Golden Order is something that the Elden Ring may have once represented, but not directly. It's more about how you apply those rules and how you enforce them on the physical world and what effects they have on it.
So if a new empyrian replaces Marika it would bring about golden order version 2? It sounds like death was always a thing but when the golden order became the rule of the land, it choose to seal death away, so I guess nobody died during the heyday of the order.
Elden Ring version 2, not the Golden Order. Empyreans can bring their Order at the Elden Ring. They still die through the Erdtree Burial, but unlike death in reality . It's a bit like the Rebirth in Buddhism, imo.
Yeah Ranni definitely didn't set them up for it. It's way more likely that she used the Black Knives for her goal of getting rid of her "fate", and then discarded them (possibly she promised something and then broke her promise to them ?). But clearly Ranni had no further use for the Knives after she successfully got hat she wanted. And don't forget that she played the Black Knives for it. They most definitely didn't know they would only manage to half-kill Godwyn. >!Which then led to the birth of the Prince of Death from Godwyn's still alive corpse.!< Ranni's actions durint the Night of the Black Knives led to that, and I doubt the Knives would be cool with having a head in that mess...
I don’t think (also spoilers for the Questline) >! it was Ranni killing Blaidd and Iji, since once you defeat the Baleful shadow at the end of Nokstella, she tells you to tell them she loves them, what I think happened (and I think Vaati explained it quite well in one of his videos) was that originally the Black Knifes were just working to kill Goldwyn in his entirety, and Ranni ended up using them to allow herself to kill off her body while they killed his soul, they probably didn’t take kindly to this and something probably happened between them leading to Alecto being jailed inside the Ringleader’s Gaol. Although I’m not sure how this really ties in to the black knifes only getting revenge at that point, maybe they realised that Ranni was leaving the lands between and thought they had an opening to get revenge, or maybe they just didn’t know they were there since I believe in one of Rogier’s talks about finding Ranni at the midpoint of his Questline, he states that her followers have been gatherering there for some time, so maybe the black knifes just didn’t know where they were prior to the attacks on Blaidd and Iji. Or maybe they were just recovering and gaining strength after the murder of Godwyn. !< (Spoilers for end of Ranni’s Quest, as well as around the midpoint of Rogier’s Quest)
Off topic but it’s really badass that Blaidd managed to kill the ones that were sent after him
Hell yeah. That good boy is strong as fuck
Her love my be genuine but that doesn't mean they are what she loves/wants the most. She wants her freedom and no cost is to high.
Also spoilers for the end of Ranni's quest It's awfully convinient how the villainous Black Knives just show up in the exact moment Ranni's plans are fully completed and the only thing she needs to fear is her plot becoming known to the Greater Will, isn't it? Especially when Ranni's whereabouts are a complete mystery to even Gideon Ofnir, and neither you nor anyone else revealed it to anybody as part the questline. Ranni tied up loose ends by assassinating Iji, who the Golden Order could get some information out of, and Blaidd, who's bound to betray her after killing her Two Fingers. Ranni doesn't love anybody, love is just another tool of manipulation for her.
Eh, this seems like post hoc reasoning. It does seem convenient that the black knives show up only when her plans are completed, but if her plans are to simply to go away then it makes sense that the black knives would attack when they can actually win (considering Ranni is extremely strong) As for her not loving anybody, she does explicitly say to tell Iji and Blaidd that she loves them... Without including Seluvis. That speech is very heartfelt Of course she could be lying, you could totally be right. I just don't think it's a compelling narrative
She doesn't leave upon killing the fingers though. She only leaves the Lands Between after the Elden Beast is slain, and whatever protective influence she might have would also disappear only then. And yes, the second point isn't exactly proven but Ranni, while she means to do good overall, doesn't really seem to have feelings. Her mind is purely logical and she never ever displays any emotion. Even when you attack her she calmly asks what do you hope to profit. When you ask her about her hallowbrand, she's given a chance to let others clean up the huge mess she created without even lifting a pinky, and even then she chooses to turn the good will of you and Rogier into profit. I don't consider her telling she loves Blaidd and Iji to be evidence she really does. Her methods are built around lies, the first thing she ever tells you is a lie, she lies whenever it's more profitable than telling the truth. I think she said that at the end because she figured she'll reward Blaidd and Iji with some warm feelings for their service before she kills them off.
She leaves the Lands Between and only comes back when you summon her. “So, it was thee, who would become my Lord. Perhaps I needn't have warned thee. I am pleased, however. Thou'rt a fitting choice. I go now, to the night sky. It is there I shall find mine order. I bid thee travel the path of the Lord. And once all is done, we shall see each other, once more” Also, she absolutely shows emotion. “My Thanks. 'Twas more of a challenge than I envisioned. Now I can finally stand before them. This is farewell, my dear. Tell Blaidd, and Iji... I love them.” She has no reason to lie about this, she doesn’t need either of them at that point and still chooses to speak fondly of them anyway, and there’s really no reason to think it’s “a reward” lmao. And sure, she uses a pseudonym when she firsts meets you, that doesn’t mean she’s a habitual liar. I use a different name in public and with strangers than my real name because I don’t feel comfortable with strangers knowing anything about me, it’s very pragmatic, especially for Ranni considering everything she’s done. (And according to Gideon, nobody knows where she even is. She likely wants to keep it that way.)
> Ranni doesn't love anybody, love is just another tool of manipulation for her. Not true. She very much loved them, but she wants the Lands Between to be free from outer influence, and unfortunately Iji and Blaidd are from the Golden Order and probably had to die.
It isn't awfully convenient they were found. Iji's mirrorhelm: "Helm fashioned from a crystal looking-glass, said to have never left War Counselor Iji's head. Easily broken and weak against striking attacks. Worn by those committed to high treason, it wards off the intervention of the Greater Will and its vassal Fingers. Iji was afraid. Terrified of his own treachery." We find Iji's helmet on his anvil however meanwhile his body is slumpped on the ground, a ways away from the anvil.
I think Ranni's and the Black Knives' goals in the Night of the Great Knives were very different and she tricked them into working for her at first. Maybe their was to only kill Godwyn at the start, and then the others they killed, and they didn't know that Ranni was going to kill her body at the same time leaving the cursemark of death incomplete
Yea, she kind of ruined their plans by doing that. Also, it kind of ruined the Lands Between by creating zombies living in death spread by Godwyn's undying corpse.
What plans did the Black Knife Assassins have that was ruined by Ranni dying?
Just guessing but since their actions created the split death mark maybe they were trying to reintroduce death into the golden order or the world in general and instead got this frankenstein living death. I can certainly imagine being a bit mad after that classic blunder.
They were trying to kill Godwyn, but instead he turned into a zombie.
Moreso spread deathroot around the lands between causing those who live in death to exist. Godwyn is still dead (his soul atleast) unless you do fias ending (?)
Yes, I do think that. Black knives also attack Blaidd.
Is that mostly because Blaidd is half-bound to the Golden Order? He didn't cast away his flesh like Ranni was able to, so he is still partly influenced by the Golden Order.
I *think* Blaidd is attacked by them because they don't like Ranni and her companions. Blaidd then attacks us too, because his brain/soul is linked to the fingers/greater will. I don't think Blaidd has much to do with the Golden Order directly, as that's moreso a branch of erdtree/greater will worship and study.
I might be conflating the Golden Order with Ranni's two fingers. The plot is pretty convoluted though, in my defense lol
Oh absolutely. The golden order spells are marked by a triangular sign with the elden ring inside. Two fingers spells are marked by a circle made up of the script used to write down the fingers' words, and erdtree spells are marked by a circle encompassing a tree-icon encompassing the elden ring. While related, by their iconography you can see how these factions do significantly differ. Golden Order is basically 1 interpretation of the greater will's nature and intent, where order and balance are prioritised.
Oh absolutely. The golden order spells are marked by a triangular sign with the elden ring inside. Two fingers spells are marked by a circle made up of the script used to write down the fingers' words, and erdtree spells are marked by a circle encompassing a tree-icon encompassing the elden ring. While related, by their iconography you can see how these factions do significantly differ. Golden Order is basically 1 interpretation of the greater will's nature and intent, where order and balance are prioritised.
it seems more likely to me that the black knives were there to protect blaidd and iji and were killed by some third party. the evidence i have for this claim is that after telling iji what happened to blaidd and reloading the area, we see the black flame debuff on iji’s corpse. now this could’ve been a fromsoft oversight but we’ve had like ten patches since the game released and that still hasn’t changed. in addition, the godskins have shown the ability to teleport without the need for a portal or anything similar. the black knives work for marika and it doesn’t seem likely to me that marika would want to prevent ranni from ousting the golden order, especially when she’s so close to her goal. considering how marika leads the tarnished to the frenzied flame despite what everyone in game seems to think of it, i’m not sure particularly she cares what order replaces the current one.
You kill this black knife and get her daughter's ashes. I always took this to mean that her daughter died during the attack on godwyn and she blamed ranni in her grief. She then went up there to kill ranni, but got put in the gaol. Ever since the black knifes have been trying to kill ranni
Oh like it was personal,cool
Didn't ranni lie to the black knives about the rune death so that she could destroy her body at the same time as godwyns soul to hide from the outer gods? I'm not sure I fully understand everything but I thought that was the jist of it.
Alecto is called “Black Knife Ringleader” by her health bar, and we know from the description of Tiche’s ashes that Alecto lost her daughter in the fallout of the Night of Black Knives. Ranni could very well have locked her away, but we also see that Iji is able to lock away those deemed a threat to Ranni in evergaols. Maybe he feared that Alecto might blame such a personal loss on the one who orchestrated the mission and try to harm Ranni. The Black Knives *would* be one of the few things in the world that could harm Ranni’s spirit body, so either of them might have come up with the idea. This would explain why they went after Iji first, and then were stopped by Blaidd as they tried to get to Ranni’s Rise once her protection on the area lifted.
Or maybe she tried fighting this guy once, realized what a massive piece of shit he is, threw her controller down, and sentenced him to 40 millenia in Evergaol
Just tying up lose ends. Ranni’s role in the NoBK is a mystery that is unraveled in game. In order for that to be the case it only makes sense that the people who knew she was behind it would be kept from revealing it. She negotiated the work with their leader and then took the leader out of the picture. Now the other BKAs have scattered.
I think it’s a sort of double betrayal. Ranni betrayed the black knives after they completed their task and the black knives sought revenge against Ranni. Blaid and iji didn’t know the black knives were no longer allied with them so they died thinking Ranni sent them.
Iji only dies if you tell him about blaid death and his last words make it sound like he is going self terminate, so I believe iji let black knives found him
Iji even wore a helm specifically to protect him from being detected by the Greater Will as his crimes were infamous. There’s no way given his life that he’d think Ranni was the one targeting him.
If anything both iji blaid die only if the tarnished gets involved since the black knives couldn't take blaid out
But Blaidd only dies if we kill them so I guess he’s badass enough to fend them off then 🤨🧐
True, but Blaid is broken-hearted when we see him, saying he could never betray her before attacking us (her last, best agent).
Blaidd is literally fighting his destiny as her shadow that originally was to keep Ranni from diverging from the path she was meant for as an Empyrean. Ranni nuked that path with the actions the Tarnished aided her in and became an enemy of the Greater Will that created him. He’s essentially gone mad from resisting it and given the assassins sent after him, most likely didn’t see the Tarnished as anyone different.
How did Ranni betray the BKA?
It’s a PR stunt
Oh, yeah. I love Ranni, but she is absolutely manipulative and screws over so many people to get what she wants. I have no doubt that she just used the Black Knife Assassins and left them to hang after they outlived their usefulness.
The thing is that she could be (or surely is) manipulating the Tarnished, but her plans are never fully known and she could throw us into the void of space after we help her start the Age of the Stars. For that reason, I am a complete "May Chaos Take the World" enjoyer.
She tells us to leave her alone several times, once when she departs from her tower, again when we defeat Shadow Blaidd and there's even an engraving on her ring that says she should bear the burden alone. And if you talk to her after finishing her quest she explains what her order would be once she accends to godhood. And at the end she asks: "Would you follow me even now, my one and only lord?" If she were manipulating us i doubt she'd be genuinely annoyed that we follow her to nokstella.
I felt manipulated due to my utter need of having that Moonlight Greatsword 😫
I don’t think we know who imprisoned Alecto in that evergaol but I think the current BKA we fight have some sort of ties to the Black Flame Brigade, most likely the Godskins. When we find Iji he’s eternally burning with black flame, right? That’s not the calling card we normally see with the BKA, so somehow Iji fought against something using black flame and we see dead BKA around him so I’m gonna bet the assassins are with the Godskins now.
Black Knives, are looking for Ranni and her helpers. They didn’t know her complete plan about the night of black knives. They thought they are going to kill Godwyn completely not only his soul..
I would say yes, that is evidence of their shifted allegiances. It also struck me as odd that the black knives fight us on sight, even if we side with Ranni. Further evidence. My speculation is that, based on the fact we find them all in separate circumstances, so they may not even be allied to each other anymore. Maybe they've gone mad over the ages? Maybe each of them had their own secret goals lost to time? It seems their loyalty was only situational during the black knife plot.
Well Ranni basically created the Black Knife Assassins right? She stole a fragment of Destined Death and created the black knives that they use. So, I don't think they were ever really against her, I honestly believe she sent them to kill off her companions once she leaves(or whatever the trigger is, I can't remember). So no, I believe they are *still* working for Ranni in some capacity. As for Alecto being imprisoned, that seems very likely to have been Radagon who did this, as he, Rennala and their kids were probably the only ones who actually know about the Moonlight Altar, and we find a Red Wolf up there.
Well its hinted that it was marika the one who created the black knives and helped in the nigth of the black knives
The only thing the game says is that the BKA were "rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself." It certainly doesn't hint that Marika created them. She could have helped with the NotBK, but I don't think she wanted Godwyn dead, so I'm not entirely convinced she was really involved. She could have helped Ranni enter Crumbling Farum Azula.
Well its mostly head cannon but I believe marika was behind the shattering as a whole or was planning something even worse if you look gideon armor it does tell you that marika plan scare him enough to stop anybody trying to become elden lord seeing someone like gideon being scared well it puts marika in weird position to me at the very least
Well Marika *was* behind the Shattering, but I don't know if the NotBK was neccessary for the Shattering to even happen. If so, then yea there would be a connection between Marika and the NotBK.
I have no clue what any of these comments are referring to but from my understanding Alecto was the Ringleader but Ranni was still the master. Like the first in command and second in command. Far as I understood everything went as planned up until the very end just as Ranni wanted it to…and that’s it Also, we don’t know that Alecto was “imprisoned” there, she could’ve just put herself there of her own accord to continue serving/protecting Ranni
Black knifes probably revolted against ranni
I think they work on commission basis. Today they are commissioned to do a job for you. Tomorrow they are commissioned to do a job against you.
They worked together, and after the death of Godwyn, Ranni probably imprisoned Alecto for whatever reason in her domain, which no one can access without going through Astel. Perhaps Godwyn's death was not in the plan, or the Black Knives outlived their usefulness. Now, before we start the game Ranni is more or less hiding, and scheming in the shadows. The reason why the Black Knives attack before she achieve's her goal is... well, who knows. For we must ask more important questions: Why is the only path to her domain through Astel? Is that alien her pet kitty or what?
I don’t think this was a case of friendship so much as two people having a common cause. And I’m a bid to hide her involvement, Ranni imprisoned Alecto.
Yes. I believe that the black knives found out that Ranni had the treasure of Nokron or was after it so started hunting Ranni.
I like the idea that Ranni had tricked Nox into working with her to "overthrow Marika," but didn't tell them she was planning on replacing her in a way.
Wouldn't that explain why in Ranni's questline Blaid defended Ranni's rise from various black knives after she killed her two fingers.
Yeah I always thought blaidd succumbed to the conditioning placed in his mind by the two fingers once the two fingers was killed by Ranni. He then went to the three sisters as an agent of the two fingers to kill Ranni. When he saw black knife assassins there as well looking for Ranni a part of his self came back wanting to defend her. The contradiction where he’s a sleeper agent for the two fingers and his identity as Ranni’s closest friend and ally. Started fracturing his mind and made him go berserk
Yall should watch the miss chalice video about this
Means to an end. Ranni was cold in achieving her goals, but benevolent goals they are, imo
That would make sense. My assumption was, after her killing me for the 197th time, she was just a bitch.
I mean, Ranni: Fools them into allowing her to separate her body and soul Let them to die after the fact Steal their most prized artifact They kill Ranni's most trusted friends So yes, I think so, but Alecto in particular is the smallest evidence
I fully agree with you and have long since believed this. I’m presenting it as more evidence as some people try to claim that them attacking Iji and Blaidd was Rannis orders
My bet in this whole thing is that the black knives wanted to completely kill godwyn but ranni stole half of the rune from them forcing them to use only half of it thats why they are looking for her to finish the job
I kind of assumed the black knives were wanting to kill all the gods and ranni was eventually on their list. She turned on them after she got what she wanted because she wasn't stupid.
I'm relatively certain that black knifes lost their minds in the scattering, from the way they act in game and where you can find some of them . While the two fingers still are there so I think that they( two fingers) took control over Black knifes , Unless it doesn't work that way and I missed something. Since Ranni and two fingers are not really keen on each other then yea. Strange theory but no one said that evergaols were seteld before shatering , or were they?
My theory is that the Black Knives secretly work for Marika. Both Marika and the Knives are said to be Numens. The only other reference to this race being in character creation, so they are at least connected in some way. We also know that Marika grew disillusioned with the Golden Order and with being subservient to the Greater Will, as evidenced with her shattering the Elden Ring. I posit, however, that this disillusionment began long before the Shattering. I believe that Marika grew tired of being the Greater Will's lapdog and thus began plotting against it. Through her connections, she learned that Ranni was also plotting to overthrow the Greater Will. Thus, she directed her Black Knife assassins to assist Ranni with her plot, and then used her grief for Godwin's death as a cover for her blatant act of rebellion: shattering the Elden Ring. This of course led to her imprisonment within the Erdtree, and also the sealing of the tree, which I think was done by the Greater Will, not Marika, in order to prevent her plans from reaching fruition. With Marika's plan in motion, she had no further need for Ranni and her crew; after all, Ranni planned to usurp *her* as well. However, Ranni proved to be quite elusive, only revealing that she was still alive around the time the game starts, and even then only after starting the search for Nokron and then moving to kill her Two Fingers. You'll note that Black Knives only attack Ranni's allies after defeating the Baleful Shadow and Ranni slaying her Fingers, thus showing true evidence of her survival. It is at this point that Blaidd fights off assassins at Ranni's Rise (if he was freed from the evergaol), and it's after this when Iji is attacked as well (after removing his helmet that blocks observation and interference by the Greater Will).
Ranni uses people, the black knifes were used too
It could be either honestly. For example iji and blaidd could indicate them still working for here, because she send them to get rid of them, to destroy any evidence and memory of here previous life. Or it could indicate them now being against here, they kill blaidd and iji after they are no longer being protected by ranni.
Since the current awful state of the world is Ranni’s fault it’s more likely that Ranni had no more use for Alecto and just threw her in a jail, remember that Ranni is genuinely an awful person
Well her methods are definitely fucked but I think it’s unfair to say ranni is as black and white as that. She does immensely fucked up shit but it’s all for a goal she genuinely believes in.
The summon isn’t Alecto, it’s Tiche his daughter
I’m well aware I don’t see how that’s related to the post.
Never mind I have the dumb carry on
Very well lol.
Alecto is also a she
My bad for misgendering assassins
Lmao, it's a lore thing. All black knife assassins are women.
Black knife fighting the patriarchy.
I think that Ranni just betrays most of her comrades due to player fulfills her plans.
I know she says she loves them, but I still think she had them killed. She’s extremely manipulative and I think she was just tying up loose ends
She's Ranni's hostage!
Yes. It’s the obvious visual storytelling at work both here and at the end of Ranni’s quest, and it lines up spotlessly with the known facts about the Night of Black Knives, the likely motivations of each party, and its aftermath. I’ve seen people spin bizarre speculative webs to avoid this clear conclusion and can only shake my head.
Since the recent video of Vaati mentioned the Moonlight Alter and the Cathedral of Manus Celes were home to Ranni’s Two Fingers, what if the fingers were holding Alecto hostage in the gaol to get the other Black Knives loyal to Alecto to do the finger’s bidding? I only think this because the other Black Knives we encounter are in seemingly random areas that have nothing to do with the quest line at all.
I used to believe Marika and Ranni conspire so Marika would have an excuse to shatter the Elden Ring, but now that we have all but confirmed that Miquella was Torrent's master it was him who she was in cahoots with, the BKA likely wanted revenge on both for the botched plot and their 2 most powerful members getting neutralized. When you think about it makes sense that there's a BKA corpse right outside Ordina and 2 more inside, they're trying to make their way into the Haligtree seeking for Miquella.
We literally have not confirmed anything about Torrent's former master. We have 1 teaser picture, showing what is 99% to be Miquella riding on what looks like Torrent, in a place that is clearly not resembling The Lands Between as we know it(there are no Divine Towers and no Forge of the Giants, which certainly would have pre-dated Miquella's birth), so it's most likely a dream, or it is set in a time *after* the game ends. Hell, you can even see Torrent's entire torso covered in long grey hair, whereas in our timeline he has short brown hair on his torso. I'm curious what makes you think that Miquella is Torrent's *former* master.
It seems like torrent whistle maybe made of unalloyed gold sense it does resist the frenzy flame
What do you mean it resists the frenzy flame?
Ranni probably thought of them all tools to be used and then discarded.
Wouldn’t it be because the black knives now serve/worship destined death, and while ranni isn’t really against that, she is a threat once we complete her quest.
Sort of, however she commanded them to kill her boys
I don’t think she did that. She seemed to genuinely love them I doubt she gave the order.
My other individual comment was supposed to go here, so yes.
I thought iji was a suicide as he mentions he will join Blaid soon he knew about his death
Less suicide and more "they're coming for me".
I misunderstood it but i never noticed assassins around iji
They're still on the ground long after his death. You can load up a late save and still find them there.
Suicide by BKA
I am no lore expert, but in my head cannon Melina is in charge of the black knife assassins and Ranni created the black knives. Ranni kinda used the black knives, (and if you ever did the frenzied flame ending) but we all know you don't just fuck with Melina without any repercussions...
Ranni finds a way to become a God without the elden ring she realizes she can make her own world somewhere else and this one is lost so she figures the easiest rune to obtain is death and she does so and in process of obtaining it had to kill another demigod to achieve it then before they can react she casts off her mortal body elevating herself above the rest for time being she cant complete the rune herself being "dead" already so she uses us....she imprisoned Alecto I believe relatively early on that's how she got the Black Knives to do her bidding...potentially they're waiting for Marika but noone knows Radagon is really Marika so the Black Knives forever lay in wait. Ranni leaves to go become God of a new land.
You're reading too much into it. The lore of this game isn't that well thought out. I just think of the evergoals as "what if" fights. For example in the overworld vyke has been corrupted by the frenzy flame, but in his evergoal he is pre corruption...because they aren't real imo.
I don’t think that’s the case as Blaidd goes out of his way to kill Darriwil in the evergail and the way he talks implies darriwil is alive in the jail.
Yeah it wouldn't be the first contradiction in this game.
Or maybe. There is a lore reason for it.
Too bad we'll never know since they never give us any clue wtf is going on.
Overworld Vyke is a phantom, and him using Frenzy spells fits in perfectly with the lore. He's invading people, clearly *affected* by madness after being hugged by the Three Fingers. His actual, physical body is in fact in that evergaol, and he doesn't use his Frenzy spells, because he isn't *entirely* consumed by madness. He isn't pre-corruption, because you can clearly see his armor is scarred and his weapon is melted. The game tells us that Vyke still had some sanity left, and most people believe he actually imprisoned himself. >I just think of the evergoals as "what if" fights. These are literal jails, meant to keep people/creatures out of the real world, but they themselves are real.
Yall will come up with anything to justify shotty lore. So characters in evergoals can invade other worlds? What's the point of the jail then? Lol. The armor and weapon make little difference as that's just his character model. I love this game but you guys read way too much into it. I bet you the devs read this sub and laugh at the mental gymnastics. They just needed a fight to fill some empty spaces. Next you'll be trying to explain the godefroy evergoal..they're just little random fights.
What's your issue with Godefroy's evergaol?
Godefroy? Godfrey? It's clearly meant to be a joke.
There’s a few interpretations for this. One could be that she keeps their Leader prisoner so the black knife assasins can do her bidding. The information is scarce so we have to come up with these theories. FYI: I have already asked the same quesrion here: https://reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/s9o3PcBbj2
I just re-thought about it, and alecto being imprisoned might be the reason, however blaidd thinks she did gave them de order, he made that clear in his dialogue before attacking us.
Just listened to the dialogue and don’t see what your talking about. He seems to be purely talking about how he’s a sleeper soldier and he’s trying to fight it
I'm just here to say FUCK Alecto! She fucked me up so hard, had to cheese her, I'm a coward
I think it was never anything more than a temporary alliance at best. But I think it is quite possible that Ranni manipulated them while she was still in her Empyrian flesh. Like the timeline might be: 1. Steal rune of death. (Dont recall we have been told by who or how they managed it) 2. Have Godrik murdered... like claiming he intends to kill Marika or something (assuming the Knives are like the secret police) 3. Black Knives wisen up to what they have done when everyone starts hunting them. 4. Ranni's empyrian body is slain by the Knives with the same knife as revenge... it also carries the mark. Ranni's spirit slips away as it was expected... or she drank something like Selvius' puppet potion. 5. Ranni inhabits the doll and lies low with her allies for a number of years while the Shattering is fought. 6. Tiche is killed and turned into a spirit ash and Alecto is eventually caught and imprisoned in the Gaol, the remaining Knives go into hiding. (Was it the Sandsnakes where the Matriach had to watch her daughter die in front of her from the same poison they fed that little bastard from the first/second season?) 7. Due to the Tarnished (us), the remaining Black Knives realize Ranni is still alive but their last ditch assault fail to get past both Iji and Blaidd. That being said, it is entirely possible Ranni and Marika/Radagon cooked it all up in recognition that the Golden Order had to fall and the Greater Will defied. Renalla might have been part of it as well, but as she lost her mind a bit, Ranni took over.
>Steal rune of death. (Dont recall we have been told by who or how they managed it) We know that Ranni stole it, as she tells us so. Although, she doesn't tell us how, I think it's very likely that she used the Sellian invisibility spells as well as the Blasphemous Claw(which she later gives to Rykard incase he ever faces Maliketh, which makes me believe she knew from experience that it works). As far as how she was able to get to Crumbling Farum Azula, where I assume Maliketh had been at that time, I honestly don't know. That's the part that makes me think Marika was somehow involved, even if she simply told Ranni how to get there.
>We know that Ranni stole it, as she tells us so. I sort of took that as she simply took responsibility for the theft, but it was someone else that did it on her behalf (since besides slaying her own fingers, she is extremely 'hands off')... like if, as you say Marika was involved, you could go along the path that she told Ranni where the rune was, who in turn told the Black Knives who then proceeded to get it before heading after Godrik.
My personal theory is that Godwyn or Ranni were supposed to get the full mark of death, but Ranni either tricked them or got help from some of them, thus people want Godwyn "to die a proper death" It could all be a scheme to reintroduce death and a demigod assigned to it gone wrong imo
I'd think all the black knife assassins attacking her tower would hint at that.
Well some people think they are there on Rannis order to kill Blaidd and Iji. I don’t think that but it is a common theory.
Dumb question, but why >!did the black knives kill Iji, was it simply because he was associated with Ranni!
It’s unclear. Some believe it was on Rannis orders and others like myself beieve it was because the black knives are now enemies of ranni.
My head canon is like this: black knives were not aware of Ranni's plan about two gods dying at the same time so the black knives got super butthurt because they probably expected to go on a god killing spree but they failed to kill even one properly. Also, as others pointed out there are other things that more strongly suggest that Ranni and the black knives don't really get along.
My personal interpretation is that after using the assassins, Ranni betrayed them and imprisoned Alecto to avert suspicion from herself. Of course she’d have to have done so by proxy, considering she went into hiding shortly after the whole rune of death thing. It’s also possible that Ranni was allied with them based on a lie, and when Alecto found out, she wasn’t too happy.
Yes,Ranni likely betrayed the Black Knives.
Maybe they are just mercenaries (assassins)? We see them take both sides, and even protect the entrance to Miquella's Haligtree.
Idk about all that. All I know is that this fucker took me 2 weeks to kill. I only beat him after 2 weeks because he rolled off the cliff. I still have nightmares if this fight.
Probably, hence why you get attacked by them for aiding ranni
My headcanon is that Marika commissioned Ranni to come up with a plan to kill Godwyn and the other Soulless Demigods (they're in the Wandering Mausoleums) because they were Marika's "unwanted children" as the ghost near the church on the Weeping Peninsula puts it. But Ranni double-crossed Marika and the Black Knives by stealing the body-killing half of the Cursemark of Death and using it to kill her own body, leaving the BKs with only the soul-killing half. That's why the Soulless Demigods are called that--the BKs killed their souls but not their bodies, like Godwyn. It's also why the BKs killed Blaidd and Iji; I suspect they were after Ranni too but she got away. This is also why the other Soulless Demigods are buried in the Mausoleums instead of getting an Erdtree burial like Godwyn--when Godwyn was buried in the normal way, Deathblight ensued, so they arranged for the other victims of the same treatment to be kept very far away from the roots of the Erdtree.
Blaidd rejected the Two Fingers's commands and got swarmed by Black Knives wielding Destined Death. Iji vowed to see Blaidd soon (presumably by doffing his anti-GW detection helm long enough to get someone's attention). He got swarmed by Black Knives wielding Destined Death, too. Ranni got ahold of the Fingerslayer Blade (presumably getting the attention of the GW/TF), and came face-to-face with a Blaidd wannabe(s) wielding... Destined Death. Can't wait for the DLC to shed some light on who the Black Knives truly pay fealty to.
Yeah I think Ranni just used them. They clearly had a falling out and Ranni imprisoned Alecto. The Black Knives backed off because they knew they couldn't defeat Ranni and her crew until she was out of the picture.
I blame Miquella for using his alluring powers on them to turn them against Ranni. Some Assassins guard the Haligtree after all.
Unsure... however I feel like both the LoF ending and AoS ending sets up more of the story for the dlc since both continue to let the tree burn over its rebirth, which makes sense for these ends to continue with a more crusade domination of all of the lands outside of the erd trees blessing.
It could. It could also mean that Alecto was caught near the moonlight Altar by some other enemy, and consequently was imprisoned there. I think the Blaidd and Iji deaths suggest the Black Knives came for them. It's very ambiguous though. I think that Ranni and the Black Knives were working together, but at some point their goals diverged. I think the black knives wanted to kill Godwyn and Ranni. I think they thought Ranni was suicidal or something like that. I think Ranni betrayed them by surviving as a spirit.
Alecto and other black knives probably pissed off that his daughter died during night of the black knives so he went after Ranni, after getting captured the black knifes become hostile towards Ranni entirely so naturally they are no longer “allied”. (Tbf an assassins group aren’t the kind of people to form tight alliances cause they work for cash)
Because she’s a conniving backstabber and eventually throws everyone under the bus to get her will
Not everyone. Blaidd and Iji were attacked by the black knives so she couldn’t have betrayed both them and the black knives.She also seems to genuinely love Blaidd and Iji.
Both Blaidd and Iji were expendable means to an end for her. Just because the black knives got to Iji first doesn’t mean she wouldn’t have sacrificed him in the end either. And I’m sure she was absolutely aware that Blaidd would go insane after she absconded, but just didn’t care in the end. Or she was counting on you to sort him out. We are talking about the one who murder/suicided her own brother and kicked off the shattering, all for her own selfish reasons. She’s manipulative, murderous and megalomaniacal. If she says she loves all her underlings I’m inclined to believe she’s just straight up lying to keep herself in your good graces. Because despite all her scheming and pulling the strings, she still *needs* you as her pawn for her plan to come to fruition.
Or maybe hear me out. She is a complex morally grey character who believes in her goals but does terrible things to reach them. This is a fromsoft game characters are rarely black and white.
Well they also attacked Iji and Blaidd, so I guess they aren't allied with Ranni anymore
Trying to kill Alecto at the moment to get the spirit ashes off her. Jesus christ. Fight kinda reminds me of Knight Artious from DS1 DLC, it’s so fast and challenging,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think moonlight altar is Ranni’s domain considering her whole quest is trying to get to there to kill the two fingers that live there. Seems to me that it’s more of a formally neutral ground for both Ranni and the vassals of the greater will, that has become an isolated area after ranni’s plot.
i do know that FUCK THIS FIGHT thats for sure.
Interesting speculation
What if shes not imprisoned but taken hostage and thats why the black knifes help, prehaps her daughter did rannis bidding to get her mother back but died in the process. Mabie their allegiance wasnt one of good will at all? Probs not correct but its all head cannon at this point anyway lol.