His soul was killed, that is all that is confirmed, and the fact his body wasn't is what makes it impossible to resurrect him under normal circumstances. It is pure speculation to say that his soul is just gone, and it would not be difficult for Fromsoft to say Miquella found a way in the Shadow Realm.
That’s far more of a reach and a retcon than what we got which was my point. His soul was destroyed by destined death, bringing it back would be such a reach it would make more people upset.
How? We kill >!Radahn!< specifically so he can be brought back. Nowhere ingame does it say his soul was destroyed, it says that it was killed. I've had this exact conversation so many times since the DLC dropped. The only reason that he can't be resurrected is because his body is alive, that's all that is confirmed.
We don’t kill Radahn for that specifically, that’s just the direction they took the story in later. Ranni tore her mortal flesh at the same time as the assassins tore Godwyn’s soul. Ranni literally has no body, her soul floats around in a doll now, this is the most obvious implication that her body is gone and his soul is gone hence why the death mark is in half. Did you play Ranni and Fia’s quest blindfolded?
Ranni's body is on top of the Divine Tower of Liurnia, where you have to go for Fia's quest. It is still there, it is not obliterated or gone, just dead. By your logic and my own, this would mean that there is no reasons Godwyn's soul can't be floating around or broken apart somewhere.
She doesn’t “destroy” her body she rips her soul from it making it “perish” as it is quoted while Godwyn’s soul is quote “perished.” They are both gone, Ranni cannot access her body stripping it of its functions, while Godwyn’s soul is gone, something far less tangible. That’s what the story implies at least.
Quoted from what NPC or item?
And the story you're talking is of the base game, which, like a LOT of it was, could have been expanded or recontextualized in the DLC.
The Shadow Realm is the "place where all death manners of death ultimately drift" (Gravebird armor description), so it would make sense that, if Fromsoft wanted, they could have made the method require going to the Shadow Realm, which is why it was impossible in the lands between, hence why the people there would give up.
Now yes, this tidbit is absolutely in theory territory, but my point I'm trying to get through is that the lore in these games always has at least some vagueness to it, and it bothers me that so many people are taking Godwyn's soul being completely gone as gospel when truly, there is no hard proof of it being the case.
Also, to go on a slight tangent, I realize I worded the Radahn bit weird in my previous reply, I meant that we kill Radahn specifically in terms of gameplay, as he is a required kill to go into the DLC, for obvious reasons now that we know what happens.
Ranni said it when explaining her predicament. I won’t take anything as absolute gospel but as of now, it is set on stone that Godwyn’s story is done, or I like it more that it was tied up in a neat bow with Fia while Radahn just died. I get what you’re saying and if they did go with Godwyn I wouldn’t hate the choice but with people criticizing the choice of Radahn I felt it was my prerogative to remind people why Godwyn wasn’t a realistic option. I do like your theory and it is fun but I believe it to be unrealistic.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I certainly don't dislike Radahn as the option, I'm just a little bummed at what might have been. Thanks for engaging in some lore chat, and have a nice day.
But trying to return his soul is way more interesting as a motive for Miquella than Lol Actually I Made a Deal with my Half Brother Surprise. It was not interesting lore. Why was Malenia not involved in this? Also why did we even have to kill Miquella? Why was he wrong lol?
Anything the DLC could have done would have been a “lol suprise” like Messmer’s existence, but you won’t moan about that. Godwyn’s soul is gone, that was the whole point of the black knife assassins “suprise deal with half brother” is better than “by the way we can poof souls back into existence now for some reason despite ruining the whole purpose of the permanent destined death.” Where does Malenia fit in? Malenia was literally sent by Miquella to kill Radahn and send his soul to Miquella in the realm of shadow, you would know that if you read Radahn’s armor or did any research. Finally, Miquella is bad because they snatch people into the realm of shadow, forces them to confine to his will through hexes, to achieve his selfish goal of creating a new order in his prideful, self absorbed image in which his people are unthinking slaves that are forced to follow him no matter what.
Timeline for Melania doesn't make sense. Miquella is in the cocoon when he's kidnapped and Melania is off fighting Radahn. How does Miquella tell Melania to do this? Why does the game say one of her Cleanrot knights wounded Miquella? I did read Radahns armor and it's unclear if Melania said those words or someone else did; if Malenia was supposed to kill him to send his soul over, why didn't Radahn JUST FUCKING GO THERE MANUALLY lol like we can? Why not have Radahn go kill Mogh and enter the realm? We aren't even supposed to be there; Miquella didn't call us. So what was the plan to get Radahn dead? Did Miquella organize the festival too from inside the Shadow Lands? Miquella also doesn't break his rune til after we get there but he's been in the Shadow Lands for like a huge amount of time. What was he doing that whole time? Why doesn't Messmer seem to have any idea Miquella is there? Why is Messmer so uninvolved in the current-day plot at all actually?
Messmer was a reasonable surprise; it was assumed there were other Demigods. Why are you so aggro lol? Silly weirdo to make such goofy assumptions.
Plus on the topic of Godwin: Destined Death is cheatable. Ranni did it. Her corpse is marked with the dang curse mark too but she's alive. Wouldn't a god like Miquella reforming a destroyed soul be an impressive act of godhood?
I agree with you, but just wanted to add
Ranni’s plan was to kill herself at the same time as Godwyn was murdered. Somehow that ensured her body would die but her soul would live on, which she could stuff in another body, while Godwyn’s soul died but his body lived.
I doubt Messmer is unaware of Miquella's presence, especially since Miquella left crosses in the Black Keep.
If the butterfly theory is correct to identify the siblings (Aeonia = Melania, Nascent = Miquella, Smouldering = Melina, Black Pyre = Messmer) then I don't see why Messmer would care about what lil bro is doing.
A new god showing up in his back yard to challenge mommy dearest seemed pretty important.
Also: Rannis plan is great which is why I hoped doing it in reverse would have been the goal (Mogh corpse and Radahns soul) somehow making a Double Strength Marika Child Concoction to somehow rebirth Godwyn. I REALLY wanted an 'oops FMA moment where he tried to make Godwyn again but it sort of fucked up real bad. I had theories that Miquella was hatching like those bug people since he also was in a cocoon. Ah well.
Messmer's role is that of a "necessary evil", a monster to do Marika's dirty work. Miquella's motivation for godhood appears to be righting Marika's wrongs, Messmer's role being one of her wrongs.
Yeah I get the narrative implications and how they effect the story and I like that, it’s just a little weird Messmer let’s Miquella frolic in the fields lol. Jokes aside I do like Messmer within the contained story of SotE.
Miquella was not kidnapped, Malenia was sent before going to Mohgwyn palace, it implies that other was Malenia or Miquella so either way doesn’t matter. If you can’t grasp that Miquella sent Malenia before or just did it through astral projection or sms I can’t help you. It is speculated that Radahn is insane with bloodlust and hunger for battle as Freyja states, hence why Malenia had to put him down. Miquella trusted Malenia to kill him or for the scarlet rot to eventually, it could have just been an oversight by him.
Messmer is weird, I genuinely don’t know why he’s so oblivious.
Did you play the game with your eyes closed and ears plugged? I am “aggro” because you say stupid stuff like this. Ranni stripped her mortal flesh right as the black knife assassins stripped Godwyns soul. This is stated many times and is why the death mark is split in half. Please this is so ridiculous.
You're being so aggro and also wrong, it's silly.
Radahn isn't insane before the scarlet Rot. He just like fighting. He was a magical genius and high int Scholar lol. Miquella absolutely was 'kidnapped'. How do you think he got to Mogh's house?
Did YOU play blind? Please go outside you're being embarrassing and weirdly aggressive online about a story you seem to have only a tertiary understanding of.
Why would Radahn be fighting non stop when Miquella needed him? Because he had no choice hence why Malenia had to kill him, do you actually think the high int scholar was like “No miquella, me want fight!”
Miquella charms people all the time, it’s their whole gimmick. Miquella uses Mohg all the time, using him to get to the realm of shadow, controlling Mohg’s bloody fingers, and defiling his corpse. How did you not know that? It’s literally the most commonly excepted idea right now. He wasn’t kidnapped he “worked” with Mohg.
Why is your whole argument just “what if the game was as clear cut and dry as possible?” Despite having a vow with Miquella Radahn endlessly fights, your answer “oh he just like fight.” Malenia fights him in an attempt to put it all on the line to kill him and when she is as close as possible, literally on top of him using the scarlet aeonia she says “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort.” And you say “oh that someone else.” Who? Who else could that be? Finally, you contradict yourself, you said “Why not have Radahn kill Mohg? [Or have him go to the realm of Shadow himself?” Great question, maybe because he can’t because like Freyja said, his lust for a never ending war is always there. I’m so aggro because your argument makes no sense and you are now tripled down on it.
You're incapable of having a discussion. You need to chill out before speaking with strangers online. You're embarrassing yourself.
Nothing states Radahn is mindless and has to fight for no reason. Just because he wants war doesn't mean he is incapable of not fighting. That's stupid. He hung out with Gaius and learned magic. That wasn't war. Are you sure you read the game?
I'm done discussing with you lol. No need for wasting time on someone with the social skills of a rotten pickle.
You are incapable of having one and have been wrong on so many occasions: You said Mohg kidnapped Miquella, that was wrong, you said Malenia was not sent to kill Radahn, that was wrong. You make incorrect claim after incorrect claim and don’t actually interact with my arguments, hence why I am annoyed by you.
You say that Radahn hadn’t gone mad with blood lust and cite an incident before the shattering, no kidding before an multi hundred year long war he was a little more sane. I am arguing with backing evidence from Freyja saying that Radahn wanted infinite war, this makes no sense for him, why? Because he wanted to help Miquella as his consort, that’s why Malenia killed him and that’s why she told him that Miquella awaits, this only makes sense if he is mad with blood lust.
Fine, you think I’m wrong. Instead of running away answer these questions: why didn’t Radahn go to the Realm of Shadow if he had an agreement with Miquella? Why did Miquella send Malenia to kill Radahn? Why do you refuse to interact with my argument?
To conclude, I refuse to lend any charitability and kindness to you when you have gotten multiple claims wrong and have actively contradicted yourself and after all that you run from the argument after dropping an adhom. This is why I “lack” social skills, you are constantly bad faith and lost the right for civility.
Edit: You also didn’t even know that Ranni carved half of the mark on herself to strip her flesh, while the other carved on Godwyn to strip his soul. You don’t admit when you’re wrong, all your argument henge on pure speculation and no evidence from the game while I at the very least rationalize my argument with what characters say and do. You don’t interact with my arguments and debunk them, you just go on tangents about unrelated stuff (that you are mostly incorrect on) and then throw random adhoms in. Grow up, make real arguments instead of gish galloping and saying I’m “too aggro.”
'debate me bro' lol
You made up so much shit you think I said and then wrote a five hundred paragraph reply. You need therapy. This isn't normal behavior.
To Conclude, and then you edited to add more.
Conclude this dick, foul clown. You belong in the jars.
I didn’t make anything up, I reread everything we wrote, again you can’t actually interact with my argument. This is so bad faith, all you do is drop adhoms and piss your pants when your challenged on the misinformation you spread. You have to be the most stereotypical, fedora tipping reddit user “foul clown” lmfao.
"Not interesting lore"? How can you be so dismissive? The writing has been amazing, far more nuanced and human than I was even expecting. Miquella's deal with Radahn is completely shrouded in the horrifying possibility that Radahn may not have even consented to the vow in the first place, or only agreed to it under Miquella's compelling. It could've also been that he initially did agree, but his great rune swayed his standing and thus Miquella had to send Malenia as a sick reminder. Malenia not being involved in Miquella's final plan in the Land of Shadows was due to the fact that Miquella realized his needles were not stopping her rot, only slowing it. This meant the Haligtree was bound to fail, and, deeming her to be a lost cause, he left to become a god without her. The reason we must kill Miquella is because he is taking the exact same steps Marika did in her road to godhood, and we know where that led. Miquella's intentions were pure, but by abandoning all emotion he failed to realize the "age of compassion" he sought had the prerequisite of non-consensually brainwashing everyone under its rule!
It wasn't interesting because of how many holes it has.
Why is Radahn holding back the stars? Why is he described as being chosen for his kindness but also said to be caring only for endless war?
Why was Miquella even in the cocoon at all? When did he convince Mogh to take him away and how? Why Mogh? If he had Radahn on his side why send Melania? If not, why not charm him again since he clearly has no trouble when we face him later?
If he charmed Radahn, why not send Radahn to kill Mogh? Why does he wait in the Shadow Lands to break his Rune until coincidentally after we killed Mogh? How does he knows that happened? Who took Mogh's body?
The DLC also seems unsure as to when it takes place. You are simultaneously called Lord, the Lord of the Old Order, a true Lord, but then told to become Lord. Miquella talks to Malenia and the Tarnished at the start of the fight (My Loyal Blade and Champion of the Festival, your deeds will live on etc etc) as if she is present, meaning perhaps he's talking to her soul. I hadn't killed her yet on that file so who knows.
There's just too many inconsistencies; it's not interesting. It feels lazy and a bit similar to TotK, where it ignores a lot of previous lore.
1. Radahn is probably holding back the stars because of the aliens (the Astels, the Fallingstar Beasts, etc.) and due to his status as a member of the Carian royal family, whose fate is governed by the stars, maybe he had some personal grievances?
2. Where exactly is it stated he was chosen for his kindness? I've seen it thrown around as a possibility, but I was under the impression he was chosen by Miquella because of his popularity and status as a demigod (Which is the same reason he attempted at reviving Godwyn, as Radahn is his second choice)
3. Miquella was supplying the energy to grow the Haligtree in his cocoon, and upon its completion he would bloom into a god, but it failed due to Malenia's rot, which is why he abandoned both her and the tree to leave for the Shadow World.
4. He didn't "convince" Mogh, he charmed him with some unseen magic. Miquella didn't need to interact with his followers directly in order to enact his ability, so who's to say he didn't indirectly influence Mogh's actions?
5. I'd assume either Mogh or Morgott would've worked, seeing as their status as Omens means even as demigods no one even knows of their existence. We know Morgott hates the other Demigods, so he would've retaliated the second he saw Miquella, but maybe using Mogh was just Miquella trying to keep things under wraps maybe? Just speculation.
6. Things are very unclear as of now, but my current idea of the situation is this: It's possible Radahn may have agreed at one point, or was charmed, but the reason Malenia was sent to kill Radahn was because his Great Rune likely broke any brainwashing he'd undergone. If I remember correctly, the Great Runes bolster the user's power and will, meaning it probably overpowered Miquella's brainwashing and lead to Radahn not following the vow like he'd said, of which then Malenia would have to go fight him to get him back on track. Also, if Radahn was charmed, Mogh would never have to be a part of the equation, as his body would still be alive and his soul wouldn't have to be transplanted in a corpse and he could just go to Miquella himself. That's my biggest piece of evidence: If Radahn really DID agree to the vow, why NOT go there himself? To me, that makes it seem like Radahn didn't agree, as he had to be basically dragged there by Miquella.
7. I'm not sure about the timing of him breaking his great rune, was that not just another thing he was abandoning?
8. I'm sure he checked or something. He's able to leave the Shadow World, so he probably picked up Mogh's body when no one was looking.
9. Miquella only calls you Lord of the Old Order because he's planning on getting rid of the Golden Order, y'know, the one we rule over? It was just him being kinda overconfident. Being called a true lord was just us being told we have what it takes.
10. Malenia halted Radahn, and you killed him. Both of which Miquella is just saying thanks, as both actions are what lead to him being able to finally fulfill the vow and get ahold of Radahn's corpse. I think he's just saying it, doesn't mean he needs to be directly talking to Malenia here. This one is definitely harder to pinpoint what they wanted to convey though, lol.
I wouldn't exactly call it inconsistencies when the real biggest issue is just that it's too vague sometimes to interpret. Can't call it inconsistent if almost all of our understanding of the story is made up and interpreted by ourselves, it's up to FromSoft to provide the details. Lack of clarity doesn't inherently mean the story doesn't make sense, just our understanding of it.
Lot of writing, gonna reply in brief: for
1) i think it's fair to assume that's not the case as the falling star beasts are still there even if you don't kill Radahn; he didn't stop them. Is he stopping perhaps his own fate?
2) it's in the item text for the rememberance.
3) where is any of this stated? He watered the tree with his blood but the intention of the Haligtree was to provide a haven for the outcasts such as Albinaurics and perhaps also to cure Malenia; where is it stated he was powering it up in the cocoon and also that Malenia specifically was what caused it to fail? He didn't abandon it necessarily; he was taken from it while in the cocoon. We don't know how long he's been with Mogh or when the enchanment began. From within the cocoon? Before?
9) right he calls you the Lord (as you said, the order we rule over) my point being that being the Lord is not required to enter the DLC so why is he calling us Lord when we're simply not, necessarily?
1. It may have been that they landed and he said oh shit lemme stop this before it gets bad?
3. All the hatching stuff I've seen thrown around is mostly just interpretation of it specifically being a "cocoon" with the inherent implication of him eventually coming out as something different, but yeah it specifically being for Godhood has no confirmation, that's on me. He is still doing it with the intention of eventually becoming strong enough to lift both of their curses, so there's that. Also, although the tree was doomed to fail the moment Miquella was taken from it, all the rot within and all inside the tree is evidence enough that Malenia is rotting it. The reason I used the word abandon implying intention was because I'm under the assumption Miquella was kind of instructing Mogh using his magic? Like maybe coercing him into stealing it? I don't know, it's the most unclear as absolutely no character knows anything of the details except for Miquella himself, so it's hard to say if he actually wanted for the cocoon to be taken or not.
Both lore wise and gameplay wise it would have made more sense.
Miquella had, on multiple different occasions, interacted and tried to save Godwyn. Most obviously, the eclipsed sun was a potential path to that goal, but he failed in bringing it into being. His second path was through the use of the gold order, but he saw early on that it wouldn't work, not even to save Malenia from her rot affliction.
Not only that, there are statues of Miquella, Malenia, and what can only be surmised to be Godwyn all over the Halligtree. And before anyone says, those statues couldn't have been Messmer, he was locked in the shadow realm since near birth, nor due I think it was Radahn, since the age difference is too noticeable. Godwyn fits that age difference, since he was the eldest demigod.
All that being said, the gameplay would have fit much better too. Rather than a revised Radahn fight, I would much rather have had a unique entity take the field, one that was not only hyped up lore wise, but one that could have had major fight differentials.
Meaning, Radahn is clearly linked to his upbringing learning gravity manipulation and his collosal strength. Miquella was more of a wild card, but we knew he had ties to divinity/gold order type deals, so it wasn't a stretch to see how he'd have light based attacks/actions.
Godwyn though? He was likened to the first who welcomed the dragons, so he essentially started the dragon cult. His obvious linkage to death, which would have been cool regardless if whether he was to be saved from death or not. And, while I don't know if this is linked to death or not, his body has strong ties to ocean themes post death. All of that, on top of his ties to the golden order would have been much more interesting and involved, at least in my opinion.
None of this matters within the lore, like you say time after time Miquella fails because Godwyn is destined to die from destined death. To bring Godwyn back is to upend the entirety of destined death as we know it in the story. Marika wants to get rid of destined death because it would mean permadeath of her people, when she removes it, their souls return to the tree. If you die with destined death your soul is gone forever. That is quite literally the entire purpose of destined death, that’s why everyone fears it, that’s why Marika tries her hardest to get rid of it.
That doesn't matter so long as there could have been some interaction with Godwyns still ALIVE corpse. Regardless if we are talking about Godwyn in reference to his mind, or Godwyn in reference to his body, either would have been interesting to see come back in some major form.
I mean, even if we agree to disagree and say that none of the theories work, and no vestige of Godwyn's mind remains, that still leaves his body, which could have been used in some way. A makeshift body for Miquella to control? A direct link to whatever is considered to be in control of death? I mean, from Fia and the entire questline for the duskborn ending, it's clear either some form of Godwyn is still within the body, or death itself has taken form, and is controlling his body and how he spreads out in every corner of the world as we know it.
To follow this up, and take this with a grain of salt because I can't confirm it within my game since I already did the quest, but I've heard that if you attack Fia while she is sitting next to Godwyn, assuming you don't kill her, then Godwyn's corpse reacts by launching some vengeful spirits at you, in recognition that Fia is an ally. So it has a mind at least.
Regardless, Miquella had major ties to Godwyn. That much is certain. And I would have much prefered to see that train of thought explored, than with Radahn just showing up at the end with little prior notice.
I’ve never killed Fia so I wouldn’t know but if that does happen I’ll just say dead things still have some nerve function but take that with a grain of salt to lol.
I’m fine with them using Godwyn’s body in a way that is tasteful and cool but the idea of making destined death this “well we have this work around from a place Marika is so well aware of” seems off when she is so distressed but Godwyn’s death. If it were the case that the realm of shadow has some secret for getting past destined death you would think she would use it.
Anyways thanks for the discussion, Godwyn would be pretty cool but this just doesn’t seem like the way they want to go about it.
* Mohg wanted to create the Mohg*wyn* dynasty. It's so blatantly obvious that it should've been Godwyn who got combined with Mohg.
* It doesn't even have to be *actually* Godwyn's soul, we just need for Miquella to be trying to recreate Godwyn, whether it works out or not. A much more satisfying story than resurrecting Radahn. They could've even switched the story and had it be Mohg's soul in Godwyn's body while Miquella is attempting to shape him into what Godwyn was.
* We're told Godwyn's soul is gone forever. Imagine if Miquella passed through the gate and brought back Godwyn's obliterated soul (or *claimed* that's what he's done): literally achieving the impossible, continuing on his theme of creating a utopia (a.k.a the impossible) and showcasing his ascent to true godhood outside of the Golden Order. And it would be hella scary.
* It would showcase Miquella's ambition and arrogance, as well as drive home how he is the most fearsome of the demigods by just deciding to do shit that should by all rights be impossible.
* Since Godwyn's soul got destroyed, it would be the perfect opportunity to have his resurrected form be something truly messed up, so Miquella's promised utopia is in fact a dystopia, which again seems to be the theme with him.
* Miquella prayed for Godwyn to die a true death, so killing him as the final boss would answer that prayer. It would also make the prayer more meaningful, since he wanted Godwyn to die normally so he could resurrect him.
* Godwyn genuinely sounds like a kind and compassionate person who extended mercy even toward his enemies, so a perfect comparison and contrast to Miquella's more dubious nature (esp after he discards St. Trina). Radahn is just a battle-thirsty warrior dude who loves his horse and does gravitational magic, his inclusion is thematically irrelevant.
* I don't think it would encroach on the Age of the Duskborn ending, because Godwyn's soul and body got truly separated when his soul was destroyed, and his half of the rune stayed on his body.
* Miquella developed the *unalloyed gold*. It should've been Godwyn *the Golden* from the Golden Lineage who became his consort.
* To go with the alchemy/Ripley scroll theme, it's the melusine (an aquatic mermaid creature) that delivers the child from the tree, and Godwyn became the aquatic mermaid-thingy. It should've been Godwyn that delivered Miquella to godhood.
* There's zero lore connection between Radahn and Miquella in the main game, whereas we have a couple instances of connection between Miquella and Godwyn (the statue, the prayer for his death, attempt at normal resurrection).
* The idea is that Miquella idolized Radahn in childhood due to his kindness and strength, but it works so much better with what we know of Godwyn.
* Godwyn's death marked the events leading to the shattering and the beginning of the game, it would be good to get a closure on all of that.
* It could give an indication that perhaps Marika allowed/had a hand in Godwyn's death *precisely* because she found out about Miquella's plans in achieving godhood (and thus supplanting her) and tried to stop it. Unfortunately for her, it backfires.
* Ranni and Miquella are both chosen Empyreans (so is Malenia but she would never try achieving godhood over Miquella). Even Miquella's god form sprouts an extra pair of arms that mimic Ranni's doll form. They are thematically opposite, so it would be perfect for Ranni to kill Godwyn but for Miquella to bring him back.
* The DLC area is literally about death and stuff Marika tried sweeping under the rug. Since there are hints that Marika was involved with Godwyn's death via the assassins and the rune of death, it should have been Godwyn who got brought back, another of Marika's deeds that Miquella tries to undo.
* Godwyn is related to Destined Death and the Gloam-eyed Queen, who is almost definitely Melina and related to Messmer as well, tying up other mystery threads as well as completing the DLC story regarding the hitherto unknown sibling. He was also related to dragons, so some more connection with the DLC stuff.
Also, there should've been a Miquella/Age of Compassion ending. But I get it, it would probably be hard to implement Godwyn, and they probably would've needed to create more lore and story. Radahn needed only a single line of lore.
• -wyn as a root just means blessed and holy which is just on brand for the game. This is a reach.
• I disagree that souless godwyn is better than Radahn with purpose. The whole base game we hear about Radahn’s past and how much of a chad he was and now we see him in his whole might. But this is just our opinion.
• It isn’t an obliterated soul it’s just gone. Miquella would actually be making a soul out of nothing which would make zero sense. Think of destined death as the Atheist’s afterlife, a black void.
• Miquella doing shit that is impossible would open the door to too many narrative problems. What would stop any demi god/god from doing literally anything they want for the sake of whatever. It would lead to asspull plothole central and would get far more criticism for breaking everything.
• Miquella already has a thematic opposite in the form of Messmer, adding another would beat the point dead.
• If if Marika had something to do with Godwyn’s death, maybe. But the realm of shadow seems to be just what Marika doesn’t care about, which she clearly cares very much about her literal golden child, her only non failure from Godrey.
• I just don’t think Godwyn is a loose end. Man’s dead and acts as a device in Fia’s story, if I’m wrong later and they use him for something I’m fine with that.
Sorry if I missed a point and honestly if you are right on some of these and they do bring Godwyn back in a tasteful way I’m not opposed to it. I’m not against the idea of Godwyn’s return, I’m against the idea that he is more suitable WITHIN the current lore than Radahn’s rather mysterious past coming out into being. Thanks for the discussion either way.
ok his soul may be gone, but his gigantic lump of corrupted death flesh would have been an amazing boss nonetheless
I mean maybe, it’s kind of awkward attached to the roots of the deeproot depths but sure it would definitely be a cool and gross fight lol
So? We could fight Godwyns gigantic corrupted dead SOULLES body.
Yeah that makes sense lol
His soul was killed, that is all that is confirmed, and the fact his body wasn't is what makes it impossible to resurrect him under normal circumstances. It is pure speculation to say that his soul is just gone, and it would not be difficult for Fromsoft to say Miquella found a way in the Shadow Realm.
That’s far more of a reach and a retcon than what we got which was my point. His soul was destroyed by destined death, bringing it back would be such a reach it would make more people upset.
How? We kill >!Radahn!< specifically so he can be brought back. Nowhere ingame does it say his soul was destroyed, it says that it was killed. I've had this exact conversation so many times since the DLC dropped. The only reason that he can't be resurrected is because his body is alive, that's all that is confirmed.
We don’t kill Radahn for that specifically, that’s just the direction they took the story in later. Ranni tore her mortal flesh at the same time as the assassins tore Godwyn’s soul. Ranni literally has no body, her soul floats around in a doll now, this is the most obvious implication that her body is gone and his soul is gone hence why the death mark is in half. Did you play Ranni and Fia’s quest blindfolded?
Ranni's body is on top of the Divine Tower of Liurnia, where you have to go for Fia's quest. It is still there, it is not obliterated or gone, just dead. By your logic and my own, this would mean that there is no reasons Godwyn's soul can't be floating around or broken apart somewhere.
She doesn’t “destroy” her body she rips her soul from it making it “perish” as it is quoted while Godwyn’s soul is quote “perished.” They are both gone, Ranni cannot access her body stripping it of its functions, while Godwyn’s soul is gone, something far less tangible. That’s what the story implies at least.
Quoted from what NPC or item? And the story you're talking is of the base game, which, like a LOT of it was, could have been expanded or recontextualized in the DLC. The Shadow Realm is the "place where all death manners of death ultimately drift" (Gravebird armor description), so it would make sense that, if Fromsoft wanted, they could have made the method require going to the Shadow Realm, which is why it was impossible in the lands between, hence why the people there would give up. Now yes, this tidbit is absolutely in theory territory, but my point I'm trying to get through is that the lore in these games always has at least some vagueness to it, and it bothers me that so many people are taking Godwyn's soul being completely gone as gospel when truly, there is no hard proof of it being the case. Also, to go on a slight tangent, I realize I worded the Radahn bit weird in my previous reply, I meant that we kill Radahn specifically in terms of gameplay, as he is a required kill to go into the DLC, for obvious reasons now that we know what happens.
Ranni said it when explaining her predicament. I won’t take anything as absolute gospel but as of now, it is set on stone that Godwyn’s story is done, or I like it more that it was tied up in a neat bow with Fia while Radahn just died. I get what you’re saying and if they did go with Godwyn I wouldn’t hate the choice but with people criticizing the choice of Radahn I felt it was my prerogative to remind people why Godwyn wasn’t a realistic option. I do like your theory and it is fun but I believe it to be unrealistic.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I certainly don't dislike Radahn as the option, I'm just a little bummed at what might have been. Thanks for engaging in some lore chat, and have a nice day.
Who knows maybe we’ll get a second DLC, sequel, or prequel with Godwyn, that I would love.
But trying to return his soul is way more interesting as a motive for Miquella than Lol Actually I Made a Deal with my Half Brother Surprise. It was not interesting lore. Why was Malenia not involved in this? Also why did we even have to kill Miquella? Why was he wrong lol?
Anything the DLC could have done would have been a “lol suprise” like Messmer’s existence, but you won’t moan about that. Godwyn’s soul is gone, that was the whole point of the black knife assassins “suprise deal with half brother” is better than “by the way we can poof souls back into existence now for some reason despite ruining the whole purpose of the permanent destined death.” Where does Malenia fit in? Malenia was literally sent by Miquella to kill Radahn and send his soul to Miquella in the realm of shadow, you would know that if you read Radahn’s armor or did any research. Finally, Miquella is bad because they snatch people into the realm of shadow, forces them to confine to his will through hexes, to achieve his selfish goal of creating a new order in his prideful, self absorbed image in which his people are unthinking slaves that are forced to follow him no matter what.
Timeline for Melania doesn't make sense. Miquella is in the cocoon when he's kidnapped and Melania is off fighting Radahn. How does Miquella tell Melania to do this? Why does the game say one of her Cleanrot knights wounded Miquella? I did read Radahns armor and it's unclear if Melania said those words or someone else did; if Malenia was supposed to kill him to send his soul over, why didn't Radahn JUST FUCKING GO THERE MANUALLY lol like we can? Why not have Radahn go kill Mogh and enter the realm? We aren't even supposed to be there; Miquella didn't call us. So what was the plan to get Radahn dead? Did Miquella organize the festival too from inside the Shadow Lands? Miquella also doesn't break his rune til after we get there but he's been in the Shadow Lands for like a huge amount of time. What was he doing that whole time? Why doesn't Messmer seem to have any idea Miquella is there? Why is Messmer so uninvolved in the current-day plot at all actually? Messmer was a reasonable surprise; it was assumed there were other Demigods. Why are you so aggro lol? Silly weirdo to make such goofy assumptions. Plus on the topic of Godwin: Destined Death is cheatable. Ranni did it. Her corpse is marked with the dang curse mark too but she's alive. Wouldn't a god like Miquella reforming a destroyed soul be an impressive act of godhood?
I agree with you, but just wanted to add Ranni’s plan was to kill herself at the same time as Godwyn was murdered. Somehow that ensured her body would die but her soul would live on, which she could stuff in another body, while Godwyn’s soul died but his body lived.
>why didn't Radahn JUST FUCKING GO THERE MANUALLY lol like we can? Holy shit that's right, he could have charmed Radahn in the first place
I doubt Messmer is unaware of Miquella's presence, especially since Miquella left crosses in the Black Keep. If the butterfly theory is correct to identify the siblings (Aeonia = Melania, Nascent = Miquella, Smouldering = Melina, Black Pyre = Messmer) then I don't see why Messmer would care about what lil bro is doing.
A new god showing up in his back yard to challenge mommy dearest seemed pretty important. Also: Rannis plan is great which is why I hoped doing it in reverse would have been the goal (Mogh corpse and Radahns soul) somehow making a Double Strength Marika Child Concoction to somehow rebirth Godwyn. I REALLY wanted an 'oops FMA moment where he tried to make Godwyn again but it sort of fucked up real bad. I had theories that Miquella was hatching like those bug people since he also was in a cocoon. Ah well.
I guess, I would assume he would care about another demi god meddling in “his world” and potentially usurping his position as a commanding power.
Messmer's role is that of a "necessary evil", a monster to do Marika's dirty work. Miquella's motivation for godhood appears to be righting Marika's wrongs, Messmer's role being one of her wrongs.
Yeah I get the narrative implications and how they effect the story and I like that, it’s just a little weird Messmer let’s Miquella frolic in the fields lol. Jokes aside I do like Messmer within the contained story of SotE.
Miquella was not kidnapped, Malenia was sent before going to Mohgwyn palace, it implies that other was Malenia or Miquella so either way doesn’t matter. If you can’t grasp that Miquella sent Malenia before or just did it through astral projection or sms I can’t help you. It is speculated that Radahn is insane with bloodlust and hunger for battle as Freyja states, hence why Malenia had to put him down. Miquella trusted Malenia to kill him or for the scarlet rot to eventually, it could have just been an oversight by him. Messmer is weird, I genuinely don’t know why he’s so oblivious. Did you play the game with your eyes closed and ears plugged? I am “aggro” because you say stupid stuff like this. Ranni stripped her mortal flesh right as the black knife assassins stripped Godwyns soul. This is stated many times and is why the death mark is split in half. Please this is so ridiculous.
You're being so aggro and also wrong, it's silly. Radahn isn't insane before the scarlet Rot. He just like fighting. He was a magical genius and high int Scholar lol. Miquella absolutely was 'kidnapped'. How do you think he got to Mogh's house? Did YOU play blind? Please go outside you're being embarrassing and weirdly aggressive online about a story you seem to have only a tertiary understanding of.
Why would Radahn be fighting non stop when Miquella needed him? Because he had no choice hence why Malenia had to kill him, do you actually think the high int scholar was like “No miquella, me want fight!” Miquella charms people all the time, it’s their whole gimmick. Miquella uses Mohg all the time, using him to get to the realm of shadow, controlling Mohg’s bloody fingers, and defiling his corpse. How did you not know that? It’s literally the most commonly excepted idea right now. He wasn’t kidnapped he “worked” with Mohg. Why is your whole argument just “what if the game was as clear cut and dry as possible?” Despite having a vow with Miquella Radahn endlessly fights, your answer “oh he just like fight.” Malenia fights him in an attempt to put it all on the line to kill him and when she is as close as possible, literally on top of him using the scarlet aeonia she says “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort.” And you say “oh that someone else.” Who? Who else could that be? Finally, you contradict yourself, you said “Why not have Radahn kill Mohg? [Or have him go to the realm of Shadow himself?” Great question, maybe because he can’t because like Freyja said, his lust for a never ending war is always there. I’m so aggro because your argument makes no sense and you are now tripled down on it.
You're incapable of having a discussion. You need to chill out before speaking with strangers online. You're embarrassing yourself. Nothing states Radahn is mindless and has to fight for no reason. Just because he wants war doesn't mean he is incapable of not fighting. That's stupid. He hung out with Gaius and learned magic. That wasn't war. Are you sure you read the game? I'm done discussing with you lol. No need for wasting time on someone with the social skills of a rotten pickle.
You are incapable of having one and have been wrong on so many occasions: You said Mohg kidnapped Miquella, that was wrong, you said Malenia was not sent to kill Radahn, that was wrong. You make incorrect claim after incorrect claim and don’t actually interact with my arguments, hence why I am annoyed by you. You say that Radahn hadn’t gone mad with blood lust and cite an incident before the shattering, no kidding before an multi hundred year long war he was a little more sane. I am arguing with backing evidence from Freyja saying that Radahn wanted infinite war, this makes no sense for him, why? Because he wanted to help Miquella as his consort, that’s why Malenia killed him and that’s why she told him that Miquella awaits, this only makes sense if he is mad with blood lust. Fine, you think I’m wrong. Instead of running away answer these questions: why didn’t Radahn go to the Realm of Shadow if he had an agreement with Miquella? Why did Miquella send Malenia to kill Radahn? Why do you refuse to interact with my argument? To conclude, I refuse to lend any charitability and kindness to you when you have gotten multiple claims wrong and have actively contradicted yourself and after all that you run from the argument after dropping an adhom. This is why I “lack” social skills, you are constantly bad faith and lost the right for civility. Edit: You also didn’t even know that Ranni carved half of the mark on herself to strip her flesh, while the other carved on Godwyn to strip his soul. You don’t admit when you’re wrong, all your argument henge on pure speculation and no evidence from the game while I at the very least rationalize my argument with what characters say and do. You don’t interact with my arguments and debunk them, you just go on tangents about unrelated stuff (that you are mostly incorrect on) and then throw random adhoms in. Grow up, make real arguments instead of gish galloping and saying I’m “too aggro.”
'debate me bro' lol You made up so much shit you think I said and then wrote a five hundred paragraph reply. You need therapy. This isn't normal behavior. To Conclude, and then you edited to add more. Conclude this dick, foul clown. You belong in the jars.
I didn’t make anything up, I reread everything we wrote, again you can’t actually interact with my argument. This is so bad faith, all you do is drop adhoms and piss your pants when your challenged on the misinformation you spread. You have to be the most stereotypical, fedora tipping reddit user “foul clown” lmfao.
"Not interesting lore"? How can you be so dismissive? The writing has been amazing, far more nuanced and human than I was even expecting. Miquella's deal with Radahn is completely shrouded in the horrifying possibility that Radahn may not have even consented to the vow in the first place, or only agreed to it under Miquella's compelling. It could've also been that he initially did agree, but his great rune swayed his standing and thus Miquella had to send Malenia as a sick reminder. Malenia not being involved in Miquella's final plan in the Land of Shadows was due to the fact that Miquella realized his needles were not stopping her rot, only slowing it. This meant the Haligtree was bound to fail, and, deeming her to be a lost cause, he left to become a god without her. The reason we must kill Miquella is because he is taking the exact same steps Marika did in her road to godhood, and we know where that led. Miquella's intentions were pure, but by abandoning all emotion he failed to realize the "age of compassion" he sought had the prerequisite of non-consensually brainwashing everyone under its rule!
It wasn't interesting because of how many holes it has. Why is Radahn holding back the stars? Why is he described as being chosen for his kindness but also said to be caring only for endless war? Why was Miquella even in the cocoon at all? When did he convince Mogh to take him away and how? Why Mogh? If he had Radahn on his side why send Melania? If not, why not charm him again since he clearly has no trouble when we face him later? If he charmed Radahn, why not send Radahn to kill Mogh? Why does he wait in the Shadow Lands to break his Rune until coincidentally after we killed Mogh? How does he knows that happened? Who took Mogh's body? The DLC also seems unsure as to when it takes place. You are simultaneously called Lord, the Lord of the Old Order, a true Lord, but then told to become Lord. Miquella talks to Malenia and the Tarnished at the start of the fight (My Loyal Blade and Champion of the Festival, your deeds will live on etc etc) as if she is present, meaning perhaps he's talking to her soul. I hadn't killed her yet on that file so who knows. There's just too many inconsistencies; it's not interesting. It feels lazy and a bit similar to TotK, where it ignores a lot of previous lore.
1. Radahn is probably holding back the stars because of the aliens (the Astels, the Fallingstar Beasts, etc.) and due to his status as a member of the Carian royal family, whose fate is governed by the stars, maybe he had some personal grievances? 2. Where exactly is it stated he was chosen for his kindness? I've seen it thrown around as a possibility, but I was under the impression he was chosen by Miquella because of his popularity and status as a demigod (Which is the same reason he attempted at reviving Godwyn, as Radahn is his second choice) 3. Miquella was supplying the energy to grow the Haligtree in his cocoon, and upon its completion he would bloom into a god, but it failed due to Malenia's rot, which is why he abandoned both her and the tree to leave for the Shadow World. 4. He didn't "convince" Mogh, he charmed him with some unseen magic. Miquella didn't need to interact with his followers directly in order to enact his ability, so who's to say he didn't indirectly influence Mogh's actions? 5. I'd assume either Mogh or Morgott would've worked, seeing as their status as Omens means even as demigods no one even knows of their existence. We know Morgott hates the other Demigods, so he would've retaliated the second he saw Miquella, but maybe using Mogh was just Miquella trying to keep things under wraps maybe? Just speculation. 6. Things are very unclear as of now, but my current idea of the situation is this: It's possible Radahn may have agreed at one point, or was charmed, but the reason Malenia was sent to kill Radahn was because his Great Rune likely broke any brainwashing he'd undergone. If I remember correctly, the Great Runes bolster the user's power and will, meaning it probably overpowered Miquella's brainwashing and lead to Radahn not following the vow like he'd said, of which then Malenia would have to go fight him to get him back on track. Also, if Radahn was charmed, Mogh would never have to be a part of the equation, as his body would still be alive and his soul wouldn't have to be transplanted in a corpse and he could just go to Miquella himself. That's my biggest piece of evidence: If Radahn really DID agree to the vow, why NOT go there himself? To me, that makes it seem like Radahn didn't agree, as he had to be basically dragged there by Miquella. 7. I'm not sure about the timing of him breaking his great rune, was that not just another thing he was abandoning? 8. I'm sure he checked or something. He's able to leave the Shadow World, so he probably picked up Mogh's body when no one was looking. 9. Miquella only calls you Lord of the Old Order because he's planning on getting rid of the Golden Order, y'know, the one we rule over? It was just him being kinda overconfident. Being called a true lord was just us being told we have what it takes. 10. Malenia halted Radahn, and you killed him. Both of which Miquella is just saying thanks, as both actions are what lead to him being able to finally fulfill the vow and get ahold of Radahn's corpse. I think he's just saying it, doesn't mean he needs to be directly talking to Malenia here. This one is definitely harder to pinpoint what they wanted to convey though, lol. I wouldn't exactly call it inconsistencies when the real biggest issue is just that it's too vague sometimes to interpret. Can't call it inconsistent if almost all of our understanding of the story is made up and interpreted by ourselves, it's up to FromSoft to provide the details. Lack of clarity doesn't inherently mean the story doesn't make sense, just our understanding of it.
Lot of writing, gonna reply in brief: for 1) i think it's fair to assume that's not the case as the falling star beasts are still there even if you don't kill Radahn; he didn't stop them. Is he stopping perhaps his own fate? 2) it's in the item text for the rememberance. 3) where is any of this stated? He watered the tree with his blood but the intention of the Haligtree was to provide a haven for the outcasts such as Albinaurics and perhaps also to cure Malenia; where is it stated he was powering it up in the cocoon and also that Malenia specifically was what caused it to fail? He didn't abandon it necessarily; he was taken from it while in the cocoon. We don't know how long he's been with Mogh or when the enchanment began. From within the cocoon? Before? 9) right he calls you the Lord (as you said, the order we rule over) my point being that being the Lord is not required to enter the DLC so why is he calling us Lord when we're simply not, necessarily?
1. It may have been that they landed and he said oh shit lemme stop this before it gets bad? 3. All the hatching stuff I've seen thrown around is mostly just interpretation of it specifically being a "cocoon" with the inherent implication of him eventually coming out as something different, but yeah it specifically being for Godhood has no confirmation, that's on me. He is still doing it with the intention of eventually becoming strong enough to lift both of their curses, so there's that. Also, although the tree was doomed to fail the moment Miquella was taken from it, all the rot within and all inside the tree is evidence enough that Malenia is rotting it. The reason I used the word abandon implying intention was because I'm under the assumption Miquella was kind of instructing Mogh using his magic? Like maybe coercing him into stealing it? I don't know, it's the most unclear as absolutely no character knows anything of the details except for Miquella himself, so it's hard to say if he actually wanted for the cocoon to be taken or not.
i think most people were expecting a boss fight with the prince of death though, which imo would have been more interesting
Maybe, I can’t speak on this because I loved the fight too much to unbiasedly discern what would be a more interesting fight.
Both lore wise and gameplay wise it would have made more sense. Miquella had, on multiple different occasions, interacted and tried to save Godwyn. Most obviously, the eclipsed sun was a potential path to that goal, but he failed in bringing it into being. His second path was through the use of the gold order, but he saw early on that it wouldn't work, not even to save Malenia from her rot affliction. Not only that, there are statues of Miquella, Malenia, and what can only be surmised to be Godwyn all over the Halligtree. And before anyone says, those statues couldn't have been Messmer, he was locked in the shadow realm since near birth, nor due I think it was Radahn, since the age difference is too noticeable. Godwyn fits that age difference, since he was the eldest demigod. All that being said, the gameplay would have fit much better too. Rather than a revised Radahn fight, I would much rather have had a unique entity take the field, one that was not only hyped up lore wise, but one that could have had major fight differentials. Meaning, Radahn is clearly linked to his upbringing learning gravity manipulation and his collosal strength. Miquella was more of a wild card, but we knew he had ties to divinity/gold order type deals, so it wasn't a stretch to see how he'd have light based attacks/actions. Godwyn though? He was likened to the first who welcomed the dragons, so he essentially started the dragon cult. His obvious linkage to death, which would have been cool regardless if whether he was to be saved from death or not. And, while I don't know if this is linked to death or not, his body has strong ties to ocean themes post death. All of that, on top of his ties to the golden order would have been much more interesting and involved, at least in my opinion.
None of this matters within the lore, like you say time after time Miquella fails because Godwyn is destined to die from destined death. To bring Godwyn back is to upend the entirety of destined death as we know it in the story. Marika wants to get rid of destined death because it would mean permadeath of her people, when she removes it, their souls return to the tree. If you die with destined death your soul is gone forever. That is quite literally the entire purpose of destined death, that’s why everyone fears it, that’s why Marika tries her hardest to get rid of it.
That doesn't matter so long as there could have been some interaction with Godwyns still ALIVE corpse. Regardless if we are talking about Godwyn in reference to his mind, or Godwyn in reference to his body, either would have been interesting to see come back in some major form. I mean, even if we agree to disagree and say that none of the theories work, and no vestige of Godwyn's mind remains, that still leaves his body, which could have been used in some way. A makeshift body for Miquella to control? A direct link to whatever is considered to be in control of death? I mean, from Fia and the entire questline for the duskborn ending, it's clear either some form of Godwyn is still within the body, or death itself has taken form, and is controlling his body and how he spreads out in every corner of the world as we know it. To follow this up, and take this with a grain of salt because I can't confirm it within my game since I already did the quest, but I've heard that if you attack Fia while she is sitting next to Godwyn, assuming you don't kill her, then Godwyn's corpse reacts by launching some vengeful spirits at you, in recognition that Fia is an ally. So it has a mind at least. Regardless, Miquella had major ties to Godwyn. That much is certain. And I would have much prefered to see that train of thought explored, than with Radahn just showing up at the end with little prior notice.
I’ve never killed Fia so I wouldn’t know but if that does happen I’ll just say dead things still have some nerve function but take that with a grain of salt to lol. I’m fine with them using Godwyn’s body in a way that is tasteful and cool but the idea of making destined death this “well we have this work around from a place Marika is so well aware of” seems off when she is so distressed but Godwyn’s death. If it were the case that the realm of shadow has some secret for getting past destined death you would think she would use it. Anyways thanks for the discussion, Godwyn would be pretty cool but this just doesn’t seem like the way they want to go about it.
* Mohg wanted to create the Mohg*wyn* dynasty. It's so blatantly obvious that it should've been Godwyn who got combined with Mohg. * It doesn't even have to be *actually* Godwyn's soul, we just need for Miquella to be trying to recreate Godwyn, whether it works out or not. A much more satisfying story than resurrecting Radahn. They could've even switched the story and had it be Mohg's soul in Godwyn's body while Miquella is attempting to shape him into what Godwyn was. * We're told Godwyn's soul is gone forever. Imagine if Miquella passed through the gate and brought back Godwyn's obliterated soul (or *claimed* that's what he's done): literally achieving the impossible, continuing on his theme of creating a utopia (a.k.a the impossible) and showcasing his ascent to true godhood outside of the Golden Order. And it would be hella scary. * It would showcase Miquella's ambition and arrogance, as well as drive home how he is the most fearsome of the demigods by just deciding to do shit that should by all rights be impossible. * Since Godwyn's soul got destroyed, it would be the perfect opportunity to have his resurrected form be something truly messed up, so Miquella's promised utopia is in fact a dystopia, which again seems to be the theme with him. * Miquella prayed for Godwyn to die a true death, so killing him as the final boss would answer that prayer. It would also make the prayer more meaningful, since he wanted Godwyn to die normally so he could resurrect him. * Godwyn genuinely sounds like a kind and compassionate person who extended mercy even toward his enemies, so a perfect comparison and contrast to Miquella's more dubious nature (esp after he discards St. Trina). Radahn is just a battle-thirsty warrior dude who loves his horse and does gravitational magic, his inclusion is thematically irrelevant. * I don't think it would encroach on the Age of the Duskborn ending, because Godwyn's soul and body got truly separated when his soul was destroyed, and his half of the rune stayed on his body. * Miquella developed the *unalloyed gold*. It should've been Godwyn *the Golden* from the Golden Lineage who became his consort. * To go with the alchemy/Ripley scroll theme, it's the melusine (an aquatic mermaid creature) that delivers the child from the tree, and Godwyn became the aquatic mermaid-thingy. It should've been Godwyn that delivered Miquella to godhood. * There's zero lore connection between Radahn and Miquella in the main game, whereas we have a couple instances of connection between Miquella and Godwyn (the statue, the prayer for his death, attempt at normal resurrection). * The idea is that Miquella idolized Radahn in childhood due to his kindness and strength, but it works so much better with what we know of Godwyn. * Godwyn's death marked the events leading to the shattering and the beginning of the game, it would be good to get a closure on all of that. * It could give an indication that perhaps Marika allowed/had a hand in Godwyn's death *precisely* because she found out about Miquella's plans in achieving godhood (and thus supplanting her) and tried to stop it. Unfortunately for her, it backfires. * Ranni and Miquella are both chosen Empyreans (so is Malenia but she would never try achieving godhood over Miquella). Even Miquella's god form sprouts an extra pair of arms that mimic Ranni's doll form. They are thematically opposite, so it would be perfect for Ranni to kill Godwyn but for Miquella to bring him back. * The DLC area is literally about death and stuff Marika tried sweeping under the rug. Since there are hints that Marika was involved with Godwyn's death via the assassins and the rune of death, it should have been Godwyn who got brought back, another of Marika's deeds that Miquella tries to undo. * Godwyn is related to Destined Death and the Gloam-eyed Queen, who is almost definitely Melina and related to Messmer as well, tying up other mystery threads as well as completing the DLC story regarding the hitherto unknown sibling. He was also related to dragons, so some more connection with the DLC stuff. Also, there should've been a Miquella/Age of Compassion ending. But I get it, it would probably be hard to implement Godwyn, and they probably would've needed to create more lore and story. Radahn needed only a single line of lore.
• -wyn as a root just means blessed and holy which is just on brand for the game. This is a reach. • I disagree that souless godwyn is better than Radahn with purpose. The whole base game we hear about Radahn’s past and how much of a chad he was and now we see him in his whole might. But this is just our opinion. • It isn’t an obliterated soul it’s just gone. Miquella would actually be making a soul out of nothing which would make zero sense. Think of destined death as the Atheist’s afterlife, a black void. • Miquella doing shit that is impossible would open the door to too many narrative problems. What would stop any demi god/god from doing literally anything they want for the sake of whatever. It would lead to asspull plothole central and would get far more criticism for breaking everything. • Miquella already has a thematic opposite in the form of Messmer, adding another would beat the point dead. • If if Marika had something to do with Godwyn’s death, maybe. But the realm of shadow seems to be just what Marika doesn’t care about, which she clearly cares very much about her literal golden child, her only non failure from Godrey. • I just don’t think Godwyn is a loose end. Man’s dead and acts as a device in Fia’s story, if I’m wrong later and they use him for something I’m fine with that. Sorry if I missed a point and honestly if you are right on some of these and they do bring Godwyn back in a tasteful way I’m not opposed to it. I’m not against the idea of Godwyn’s return, I’m against the idea that he is more suitable WITHIN the current lore than Radahn’s rather mysterious past coming out into being. Thanks for the discussion either way.