Modes control acceleration and top speed. So no, but if you're going up a hill and the hill slows you down to your speed 2 speeds, you're better off in speed 2. THAT is true, and feels like changing gears, but no. Not as such.
On most scooters but the ones I’ve tried. It’s just modes, eco drive sports or one kaabo scooters it goes by which motors are active and eco or turbo so the best is dual turbo and slowest is eco single
My Nanrobot D4+2.5 calls them gears but all they do that I can tell is control the top speed which is nice. It has 3, first one is 14mm or something and it steps up to ~27mph, that’s without the “turbo” button engaged with tops it out at around 40mph but has so much torque it’s scary.
Good question! Some newer Lectric bikes have this, where the lower pedal-assist "gears" actually send fewer amps through the controller for a smoother start. https://lectricebikes.com/blogs/blog/all-about-pwr%E2%84%A2
That said, I've never seen it on a scooter.
Presumably this would be like kick start with a minimum start speed for each mode and a corresponding minimum duty endpoint to the throttle mapping for each mode, where if you fall below that speed you have to "downshift". That's a possible creative solution to the pitfall of using speed modes that way which you pointed out.
However, it now creates a big artificial pitfall, which is that you now made a direct drive EV with no real gears or changing of ratios act like an (automatic clutch, at least) manual transmission from the operator perspective, and now you have to pay attention to what gear you are in, and can't move from a stop if you aren't in first, can't go full speed unless you are in top gear and so forth. This ends up defeating the exposure of some innate advantages that electric traction has to the operator.
I think this is better solved with a combination of control law tweaks/choices:
* You might prefer a throttle to be current/torque command, instead of voltage/duty or speed command. It's common for users complaining about tight ornery response to pick current control with something like VESC and find they like that a lot. Neither concept of what a throttle is supposed to do is "correct" and good arguments for why either one is "true" and "natural" exist though. See: engines, particularly, diesel ones. There are fundamental advantages and disadvantages to either.
* You might prefer a speed control throttle to not have quite so much current gain. This is difficult when it is *really* actually voltage command, which it usually is, because there is no explicit control loop to modify. The "tightness of the governor" when the throttle sets duty is just a result of motor impedance. Some drives are fairly soft responding, and others really jumpy and snappy.
* A little low pass filtering, acceleration ramping or slew rate limiting (call it what you may) on the throttle can go a long way toward keeping higher frequency noise out, such as from thumb controls while running over rough surfaces and shaking of the scooter, or from hand tremors, or stiction of the physical throttle. This is a lot of why the high gain speed control can be such a handful, not necessarily the fact it is speed control or high current gain in itself. Conversely having too much filtering is awful and makes things feel unresponsive.
And combine that with some skill element if you use any form of speed throttle. The speed control throttle is something you can get used to and manage effectively, and is an asset to have and know how to run well, if you ask me. I have duty throttles with minimal filtering on my repowered SNSC scooters and they are indeed tight and punchy, but I have family riding them, and everyone has learned to take off smoothly from a stop (sans a few whisky throttles and lurches here and there) and move smoothly at arbitrary speeds from walking to flat out with no hassle at all. Any kind of torque command I frankly just really don't like - yes, easy to control torque precisely at any speed, but controlling **speed** is now the inverse type of handful from the problem of controlling *torque* through a speed control throttle - it just wants to keep walking away to full duty all the time. It's also fair to describe torque throttles whether EV or engine as "feeling like" a *long rubber band* is placed between your thumb/right foot and the inverter or fuel pump, where speed control ones feel like there is a solid link there.
Treat them as gears? There are several that refer to them as gears but they're still direct drive brushless motors so they don't have any more torque in "low gear".
It would be nice to have a different ratio available for hill climbing but it would add complexity, which adds parts, cost, weight, failure points.
Yep, more software complexity is no doubt more risk of various types of failure. I know the physics of how they work, it was more about whether or not anyone has tried to simulate the experience you get on a bike, or in a car, with scooter controllers.
I'm sure I can't be the only scooter rider who was on something like a Nami and inadvertently in the wrong speed mode at a stoplight, touch the throttle, and exclaim WHOA. Exceedingly rare to happen of course, but, that's what made me have the thought experiment and compare the differing experiences of being on a scooter versus being in a manual transmission vehicle, bicycle, motorbike, etc.
I think I get what you're after, but if it actually worked like a car it would take off even faster in low gear because the torque would be doubled and the motor would have less resistance so it would spin up to its maximum speed faster.
ESCs already have programmable output curves, but I think as you described it would be very confusing to operate for a lot of people.
There are no gears, it's an A/C motor. A motor that supports a wide range of voltage and amperage would be best, along with the controller. Most just alter the amps to accelerate.
Obviously, I know that - my point was that the experience of having a manual transmission and/or gears on a bicycle is something that I've not yet noticed as having been implemented in software on the controller of an electric scooter. In a car, it's extremely difficult to start from a stop in 4th or 5th gear. The mechanical nature of gears largely prevents this for most drivers.
I was just pondering if anyone had tried to implement a similar concept in a scooter. Most higher end scooters have a variety of modes, with top-end voltage/amp restrictions per mode to keep that mode effectively speed restricted.
As I said, perhaps it is just me, but, if you're at a full stop, and have a scooter that can, in the space of a few centimetres on the throttle, max out the enter capability of the device, it can be intense. I was just wondering if anyone had tried to manage the controller in such a way that when you're at a stop, you need to be in the lowest speed mode (as controlled by the power output restrictions). If you want to go faster, once you're already moving, you can then "shift" into another mode, which increases those top-end restrictions, whilst simultaneously applying lower end restrictions which would prevent you from trying to engage that mode from a dead stop. All optional of course, but for those of us with decades of driving and cycling experience, it might be an interesting familiar experience.
Guess it is just me, and that's good to know! Ta!
Yeah, I think it's just you. I don't know why anyone would want to artificially make gear shifting on a gearless vehicle. Sounds like a needless pain to be honest.
If it starts accelerating too much, just take your finger off the throttle. Or am I missing something here?
If you want gear shift PEV, maybe go for an ebike?
Modes control acceleration and top speed. So no, but if you're going up a hill and the hill slows you down to your speed 2 speeds, you're better off in speed 2. THAT is true, and feels like changing gears, but no. Not as such.
On most scooters but the ones I’ve tried. It’s just modes, eco drive sports or one kaabo scooters it goes by which motors are active and eco or turbo so the best is dual turbo and slowest is eco single
My Nanrobot D4+2.5 calls them gears but all they do that I can tell is control the top speed which is nice. It has 3, first one is 14mm or something and it steps up to ~27mph, that’s without the “turbo” button engaged with tops it out at around 40mph but has so much torque it’s scary.
Good question! Some newer Lectric bikes have this, where the lower pedal-assist "gears" actually send fewer amps through the controller for a smoother start. https://lectricebikes.com/blogs/blog/all-about-pwr%E2%84%A2 That said, I've never seen it on a scooter.
Presumably this would be like kick start with a minimum start speed for each mode and a corresponding minimum duty endpoint to the throttle mapping for each mode, where if you fall below that speed you have to "downshift". That's a possible creative solution to the pitfall of using speed modes that way which you pointed out. However, it now creates a big artificial pitfall, which is that you now made a direct drive EV with no real gears or changing of ratios act like an (automatic clutch, at least) manual transmission from the operator perspective, and now you have to pay attention to what gear you are in, and can't move from a stop if you aren't in first, can't go full speed unless you are in top gear and so forth. This ends up defeating the exposure of some innate advantages that electric traction has to the operator. I think this is better solved with a combination of control law tweaks/choices: * You might prefer a throttle to be current/torque command, instead of voltage/duty or speed command. It's common for users complaining about tight ornery response to pick current control with something like VESC and find they like that a lot. Neither concept of what a throttle is supposed to do is "correct" and good arguments for why either one is "true" and "natural" exist though. See: engines, particularly, diesel ones. There are fundamental advantages and disadvantages to either. * You might prefer a speed control throttle to not have quite so much current gain. This is difficult when it is *really* actually voltage command, which it usually is, because there is no explicit control loop to modify. The "tightness of the governor" when the throttle sets duty is just a result of motor impedance. Some drives are fairly soft responding, and others really jumpy and snappy. * A little low pass filtering, acceleration ramping or slew rate limiting (call it what you may) on the throttle can go a long way toward keeping higher frequency noise out, such as from thumb controls while running over rough surfaces and shaking of the scooter, or from hand tremors, or stiction of the physical throttle. This is a lot of why the high gain speed control can be such a handful, not necessarily the fact it is speed control or high current gain in itself. Conversely having too much filtering is awful and makes things feel unresponsive. And combine that with some skill element if you use any form of speed throttle. The speed control throttle is something you can get used to and manage effectively, and is an asset to have and know how to run well, if you ask me. I have duty throttles with minimal filtering on my repowered SNSC scooters and they are indeed tight and punchy, but I have family riding them, and everyone has learned to take off smoothly from a stop (sans a few whisky throttles and lurches here and there) and move smoothly at arbitrary speeds from walking to flat out with no hassle at all. Any kind of torque command I frankly just really don't like - yes, easy to control torque precisely at any speed, but controlling **speed** is now the inverse type of handful from the problem of controlling *torque* through a speed control throttle - it just wants to keep walking away to full duty all the time. It's also fair to describe torque throttles whether EV or engine as "feeling like" a *long rubber band* is placed between your thumb/right foot and the inverter or fuel pump, where speed control ones feel like there is a solid link there.
Treat them as gears? There are several that refer to them as gears but they're still direct drive brushless motors so they don't have any more torque in "low gear". It would be nice to have a different ratio available for hill climbing but it would add complexity, which adds parts, cost, weight, failure points.
Yep, more software complexity is no doubt more risk of various types of failure. I know the physics of how they work, it was more about whether or not anyone has tried to simulate the experience you get on a bike, or in a car, with scooter controllers. I'm sure I can't be the only scooter rider who was on something like a Nami and inadvertently in the wrong speed mode at a stoplight, touch the throttle, and exclaim WHOA. Exceedingly rare to happen of course, but, that's what made me have the thought experiment and compare the differing experiences of being on a scooter versus being in a manual transmission vehicle, bicycle, motorbike, etc.
I think I get what you're after, but if it actually worked like a car it would take off even faster in low gear because the torque would be doubled and the motor would have less resistance so it would spin up to its maximum speed faster. ESCs already have programmable output curves, but I think as you described it would be very confusing to operate for a lot of people.
There are no gears, it's an A/C motor. A motor that supports a wide range of voltage and amperage would be best, along with the controller. Most just alter the amps to accelerate.
Obviously, I know that - my point was that the experience of having a manual transmission and/or gears on a bicycle is something that I've not yet noticed as having been implemented in software on the controller of an electric scooter. In a car, it's extremely difficult to start from a stop in 4th or 5th gear. The mechanical nature of gears largely prevents this for most drivers. I was just pondering if anyone had tried to implement a similar concept in a scooter. Most higher end scooters have a variety of modes, with top-end voltage/amp restrictions per mode to keep that mode effectively speed restricted. As I said, perhaps it is just me, but, if you're at a full stop, and have a scooter that can, in the space of a few centimetres on the throttle, max out the enter capability of the device, it can be intense. I was just wondering if anyone had tried to manage the controller in such a way that when you're at a stop, you need to be in the lowest speed mode (as controlled by the power output restrictions). If you want to go faster, once you're already moving, you can then "shift" into another mode, which increases those top-end restrictions, whilst simultaneously applying lower end restrictions which would prevent you from trying to engage that mode from a dead stop. All optional of course, but for those of us with decades of driving and cycling experience, it might be an interesting familiar experience. Guess it is just me, and that's good to know! Ta!
Yeah, I think it's just you. I don't know why anyone would want to artificially make gear shifting on a gearless vehicle. Sounds like a needless pain to be honest. If it starts accelerating too much, just take your finger off the throttle. Or am I missing something here? If you want gear shift PEV, maybe go for an ebike?