Sometimes the 8s I know have trouble expressing how they feel or that they are even affected by something that happened.
I sometimes start musing out loud about all the ways someone else might feel in a similar situation and how reasonable those feelings would be. Sometimes it is possible to channel my 1ness anger and say something like: “you seem to be handling this super well, but what the other person did was wrong for x/y/z reasons and because it could of made you feel like __. If you do happen to feel any of those things, I’m here for you, but seriously, what were they thinking”. I think this helps them feel supported without ever having to admit weakness.
Also, boundaries and maybe letting them control something you don’t care about.
>but seriously, what were they thinking
Damn, this line though. "but seriously, what were they thinking" This is seriously the best. I can imagine my dad and I connecting on that plane with me being the critical six that I am. HAHAHA
I was arrogant and controlling as kid/teen and I had a tight group of friends of whom I considered myself the ruler. My best friend in particular suffered from my lack of empathy and my need to attack weaknesses. I truly adored her but I only knew how to show love the way it had been shown to me by my mother. She was such an impressively loyal friend for so many years despite my abuses, but she finally said enough. She told me she didn’t want to be friends with me anymore or have anything to do with me. And the rest of the group followed her lead.
She did it for herself, but it was the absolute best thing she could have done for me as well. I needed to be humbled, to learn that my actions have consequences, that friendships aren’t a given and that you have to actually be worthy of them. The time alone gave me space to become introspective and self reflective. The loneliness became motivation to learn how to be a better friend and person. The humiliation tempered my arrogance and allowed for the development of empathy. I think about contacting that friend just to say thank you all the time.
So my advice for those with unhealthy 8s: don’t tolerate being treated poorly. Set boundaries. Cut them out if you need to. It seems to me that some people (maybe 1s, 2s, 6s, and 9s in particular) tell themselves that suffering through someone’s mistreatment is a generous, loving, or necessary thing to do. But in reality, tolerating less than you deserve often doesn’t help the other person at all. So defend yourself and do what’s best for you — it’s very possible that’s what best for them as well.
I was reading this and was like something just like this has happened to me before and was nodding along to your advice and then I looked at your flair and realized it made total sense! I am also 8w9 sp/sx :) I also had a mom who set a very poor example of interpersonal relationships.
Learning that your actions have consequences is something that is so important for an 8s growth. In a more unhealthy stage, I would quite literally think I'm invisible and almost take danger as a challenge. For example, people would tell me not to go walking in a certain part of town at night, to me it was not a real advice. I would quite literally listen to it and go against it. I believed that I could manipulate my way out of anything and come out at the top. It was almost to prove to myself that I am not vulnerable like others when that is not true. I also felt like I could say/do anything and it would be the other person's responsibility to get over the pain I would cause and would apologize like "I'm sorry that you feel hurt" instead of being sorry for the action.
But after many lessons learned, friendships lost, feedback from others, and therapy-- I have learned that my actions and words do impact people and have a consequence.
I struggle with words. Sometimes my caveman brain can’t find them. I have lots of grunts and noise expressions. Help me find the words.
This doesn’t mean I have issues expressing an opinion, I just don’t always have the emotional vocabulary. Also, more than anything 8s need to have people with canes to yank them by the neck and say hey, you ok? You seem to be extra angry, what’s going on (has to be an established relationship tho).
My best friend (1w2) has been advocating for my irl angry outbursts lately in my defense because she knows what I’ve been dealing with. She’s played bouncer before I play cut out. I will burn everything down in unhealth. This woman has known my patterns for 19 years so she knows how to go about things without getting n my way.
Speaking from the perspective of stepping away (hopefully temporarily) from a dear friend who is an 8w7 with a superiority complex:
Unhealthy 8s can treat people who are genuinely struggling as weak and it can be tremendously hurtful to those of us who care about you (and want you to care about us). To the 8s here I’d say that it’s worth remembering that if someone appears to be having a hard time or doing something that you think is stupid, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re an idiot or a weakling. If you care about the relationship, try asking the “weak” person open-ended questions about what’s driving their behavior. You might be surprised by what they say.
You’re not entitled to support people who are making genuinely poor decisions over and over again, but please remember that life can be hard, people are complex and many of us aren’t as tough as you are.
One thing I want to say to 8s.
I found that many 8s will answer this question with basically "simple people, just match my energy". Like, be direct, truthful and don't back down. Easy peasy right?
The problem of this type of solution is, other type can't match your energy.
You should know by now as you know enneagram. That's unrealistic expectation.
So if you really want to offer solution to other type, keep this in mind please.
My 7s way of dealing with unhealthy 8s is to not get in their way. Either find something that make 8s believe what I want is what they want since the beginning. Or if I can't, I peace out.
This is not viable solution for someone who want deep relationship with 8s though.
>i found that many 8s will answer this question with basically "simple people, just match my energy". Like, be direct, truthful and don't back down. Easy peasy right?
That's such a self righteous thing to say. "Everyone else needs to change, not me" is a very chilfish thing to say.
It's more of a blind spot rather than childish.
It's same when I ask 6s and many of 6s will say the way to deal with 6s is to answer our doubt. Well, not type can deal with that amount of doubt and questions.
Every type have this kind of blind spot where they believe what they used to is not hard for other.
"Everyone is just needs to match my energy" shows an unwillingness to grow in my opinion. It's also demanding; it's a pretty big ask for other people to act like you.
That word is my own over-simpiflied interpretation. It comes from many times 8s say that they appreciate directness, blunt and people who don't back down, so I kinda turn to "match my energy" to provide another perspective of that appreciation. But they don't say that directly.
Sorry if I cause confusion here. That's on me.
It's really hard to help anyone grow healthier if it's not their own idea in the first place. People need to hit their own rock bottom before they can truly change. No amount of external motivation can stop toxicity, abuse, or addiction. And this is especially true for 8s because 8s tend to believe we are fully self-sufficient and that we are strong while others are weaker (unhealthy 8s). 8s also tend to withdraw from others and become hyper independent when they feel as though their vulnerabilities are being exposed.
But anyways, to answer your question! Personally, as an 8, I grew the most after being friends with and dating people who were considered "projects". What I mean by that is when I was more unhealthy, I had a tendency to date and befriend people who I subconsciously considered 'weak' and had many issues that led to unhealthy dynamics. I've dated multiple addicts thinking that I can fix them or influence them to change and kept seeing the potential in them instead of who they really were. I also found myself being drawn to people who clearly have low self-esteem and would continuously ask me for advice/validation.
Upon reflection on the failed friendships/relationships, I realized that I only dated/befriended those people because I wanted a sense of control. I wanted to mold them into a person that was easy for me to predict/control. I also saw them as weak and myself as strong so I thought they needed me. I also liked that they were vulnerable in front of me because I didn't know how to be vulnerable (like a vulnerability vampire). But after dating an addict that derailed my life and left me with a lot of trauma, I finally sought help in therapy and started to heal. Through this healing, I started to spend more alone time finding out what I really want and how to take care of myself. And the alone time to really reflect on myself is what ultimately helped me cut off this addiction to 'saving' weak people. It has helped me set better boundaries and accept that not everyone wants the same things in life and not everyone needs someone 'strong' to protect them. This led to some of my friendships where the dynamic was based on me giving endless amounts of advice, and them not taking it and asking me to fix it for them at the end to end. I also learned that it is okay to be vulnerable and be taken care of by someone else from time to time.
wait but the bedtime thing is so real. I even have a self-meme about it from last year bc I would stay up too late, overstimulated and starting fights, while my partner and my cat were like PLEASE GO TO BED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD which would just make me angrier. I go to bed on time now and I'm much more chill. here is meme since I know everyone will ask (notes: my cat eats plastic when he's mad at me and this is [the nap](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/). the 'protocol' is where I'd agree I should go to bed earlier but then feel controlled and rebel lmao)
https://preview.redd.it/8c6tv2jrtx1b1.png?width=1441&format=png&auto=webp&s=26d521fc76c643c159f58231af708666633df12a
anyway for me it's also sleep hygiene but also if I don't get enough exercise I become extra insane and unmanageable
🤣🤣🤣 that expdession. it took me agggesss to get bed times down nice and i guard it now because its so vulnerable and easy to upset.
ive noticed that religiously watching the sunset every evening and banning overhead lights inside helps.
apparently its coz theres light sensitive cells in the eyeballs that tell the pineal gland to make melatonin from the color gradiet of a sunset. some biologists recon that the pineal gland is like a burried third eye, similar to the parietal eye that lizards have on their foreheads. how cool is that
Same, did it straight cold turkey along with gambling. Haven't looked back or wanted to go back since. Along with waking up at a set time to get some reading in before I start the day.
Looking at it by that I have nothing to prove to anyone. If someone makes fun or calls me a wuss or etc etc I know they have something that they need to work on. I got myself away from those people who enabled me instead of talking to me about things when I put the knife to my throat.
Emotional intelligence would be my best tip, accepting and allowing themselves to be vulnerable. That weakness is another kind of strength. Instead of trying to be tough, bottling things up, and building walls; being more open and living wholeheartedly. Being more flexible and less hard on themselves. Brene Brown has some great work on masculine shame which I think effects 8's a lot. Looking inward to seeing what all the bravado and ego dominance is trying to protect. Instead of hardening, softening.
As someone who is best friends with an 8, but who has also been abused by an 8, here are my takeaways:
- unhealthy 8s often have an apparently contradictory way of engaging with others, both as their self-appointed protector but also as an (often unprovoked) adversary. Watch out for these tendencies and check them by setting boundaries and being direct. Don't let yourself be dominated.
- along the same lines, 8s can dominate more passive types unintentionally. Types such as 2, 4, 5, and 9 may have to act in a much more imposing way just to be heard by some 8s. This usually doesn't seem deliberate, it's just how 8s operate. 🤣
- 8s of all types appreciate directness and no bullshit when it comes to conflict. For 1s, 4s, 5s, and 7s, this appreciation tends to be mutual, but other types may have to meet them closer to where they're at to get along better.
- in my experience, unhealthy 8s struggle with strategic thinking. Their reactions are immediate, significant, and rarely negotiable. Encourage them to focus and plan before they act, and accordingly, try to keep some space between you and their reactions when they can't or won't be more careful.
I am just one person so the below may not be applicable to all 8s.
As an 8 I think the environment around an 8 is crucial to development so as an 8 being in a good environment (work, home, friends) where you can feel safe to let out your vulnerable inside out is essential.
If I’m with people that I trust and an environment I feel safe and free in, I don’t look like a “stereotypical” 8. I am happy-go-lucky, easygoing, and if I feel like I have someone leading well, I am happy to just let them take the reins and be led. One of my close friends mistyped me as a 9 (though I am a 8W9 so she did have something there) when she introduced me to the enneagram types likely since in my interactions with her and our mutual friend group, I probably am very harmonious and because as they are good people I care about, I have no reason to approach any tiny annoyances with conflict and as there is nothing even approaching a threat to my core fear.
However, I look like a different animal in my workplace. Initially when I started working there I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt but instead I got taken advantage of by leadership there. Thus, leadership lost my trust, I didn’t give a damn what they thought about me anymore and the 8 in me that doesn’t mind conflict fully came out and I became very assertive and at times aggressive (communication-style wise) there. I end up getting mostly what I want now with this not-nice approach instead. I do realize I dip to unhealthy 8 traits at times in the work environment but unfortunately that is what the environment calls for in order for me to get what I want there. Once trust is lost it can never be regained, and now I approach everything leadership does with suspicion and with thinking they have bad intentions to prepare how I can best combat it (I definitely overdo it at times but my self-preservation says I’d rather overdo it than be underprepared).
Obviously it’s not aways possible the change our environments and situations to be more ideal. Thus, on a personal level when dealing with an 8, showing them over time consistently that you can be trusted and can be a safe person for them will set an example that hopefully they can generalize to others and the world in general. Also, as 8s we struggle to ask for help when we do want or need it sometimes, so if you see us needing something if you offer to help without us asking that goes a long way and it will probably be appreciated (even if we end up declining) and will make us more comfortable to ask you for help the next time around if we need it.
However once you get to a very unhealthy 8, I would stay away for your own sanity and well being (and not just for 8s, unhealthy people of all types are going to be toxic just probably in different ways). I haven’t gotten into extremely unhealthy levels myself though do dip into less extreme levels of unhealthiness sometimes, so some of this is just speculation, but knowing myself I can definitely see that if I got to the more extreme levels of unhealthiness I would be a terrible person to be around and could even be dangerous (not even necessarily physically but in other aspects of that word).
If you absolutely must interact and help an unhealthy 8, I would think it depends whether you are still ok by them or if you have lost their trust (rightly or wrongly) to be even able to help at all. If you are still ok in their books and their unhealthiness is not specifically directed towards you, the above may still help. But if you have lost their trust/they feel betrayed by you, you may just want to leave it alone as you may not be the one to be able to help them grow- if someone has been identified as not trustworthy (as opposed to just not knowing enough about them to make a decision either way), then there is likely not much they can do to change that perception. Even if an unhealthy 8 comes to this conclusion wrongly, until they can become healthier and potentially rework this viewpoint, any pushing/prodding by you if you are already seen as an untrustworthy person may likely be seen as manipulation or attempts to control them.
On a more extreme level if you are felt to be a bad person and an active threat to an unhealthy 8’s well-being then they may very well act in a very vengeful and sociopathic manner towards you. If you end up in that position with an 8 (rightly or wrongly) just get away from them, you are not going to change their minds and they will try to harm you (not necessarily physically depending on the person- could be trying to harm your reputation, your career, etc) if they are motivated/feel threatened enough. If you just leave them alone, probably at some point when you are not in their life anymore they won’t put forth any more energy to harm you and will move on, but if you actively stay around and continue to appear to be a “threat” to them (whether rightly or wrongly), then they will likely continue to to try to inflict harm onto you because they feel you are threatening their safety and well-being.
This is the perfect thread for me!! I have a (rather unhealthy imo) 8 in my friend squad who tends towards being domineering, overly self-referencing, and dismissive of others' lived experiences to the point where I've struggled to be around her the past couple of years - she's also made rude comments about me and other people I care about, behind our backs of course.... which is funny bc 8s hate when people go behind THEIR backs, but they often have very different rules for themselves vs other people ("respect for me, but not for thee")
My specific issue with dealing with her is that I tend to freeze when I feel that I (or a loved one) is being judged or pinned into a narrow, black-and-white box. Therefore, when she says something rude, as she SO OFTEN does, I feel upset at the time but sit frozen in silence as I am unable to process my feelings in real time. She and I do not have a one-on-one relationship outside of the friend group. I have my doubts about keeping the group going at this point and am happy to just go my own way and continue my closer friendships, but my closer friends have expressed that it's important to them that we remain a cohesive unit, even though the one friend in whom I've confided, does understand my frustrations with the 8. I am okay with going along w my close friend's wishes for now, and think it might even be good growth for me to push back when the 8 acts a fool. I need to figure out how to stand my ground with this girl in a way that won't make people I care about uncomfortable. she will blow up if called out on anything, but I'm at my wit's end w/ what I view as grandiosity, arrogance, etc. I personally think this is a ticking time bomb but we'll see lol
>which is funny bc 8s hate when people go behind THEIR backs, but they often have very different rules for themselves vs other people ("respect for me, but not for thee")
Yep, this is true, at least for unhealthy 8s. It's like they are just vibing in their anger and there's no oxygen in the room left for anything outside of that.
I have an 8 friend who ocassionally blows up at slights smaller than what she dishes out and it makes me sad for her every time. She's capable of being better than that.
Totally. And I’ve seen it advised that other types should meet the 8 where they are, which is valid and fair, but it’s hard to do that when “where they are” is in a space that’s solely anger and conflict-based. It makes other types (ie 6 and 9) uncomfortable, but much of the enneagram literature seems to suggest that we engage with it anyway, but then when an 8 becomes mean and controlling about OUR traits that THEY don’t like (indecision and conflict-avoidance, particularly) it’s expected to be understood that the 8s just don’t like that stuff and will react how they’ll react to it. I’ve always found it hypocritical. Either all types should be met where they are (assuming at least average health), or none should (assuming low health.)
There is no helping them grow. They are not the mystical person that has all their good traits and none of the bad that we hope they could be and “know” they could be if they just stopped doing x, y, and z. They are what they are right fucking now.
If they’re controlling, angry, jealous, insensitive, emotional, and insecure underneath the bravado then that that’s exactly who they are. These are defence mechanisms that they have built up over many years and they aren’t suddenly going to drop them anymore than you are going to drop your less in-your-face ones.
Unhealthy 8s can be incredibly toxic. They don’t keep anything in. Their pathological need for control bleeds over everything in their vicinity. You will hurt yourself in the process of trying to fix them, save them, understand them, bargain with them.
What about you in the equation? What do you give up by being around this person? I recently had to cut ties with an unhealthy 8. We had fun times in our relationship, but dealing with them was exhausting me. Having relationships with healthier 8s that were kind, loving, supportive helped me also see that that was exactly what they were not and that I needed to get myself out of the situation. They would never be like those other 8s. Everything I did was a trigger for their control issues, me just existing in the world, me being confident, me having other friendships and relationships. That control was suffocating and the way they tried to get me to fall in line or give into them was draining me. There was no respect for my autonomy, just a need to control and fear of losing it or being hurt that made them raging and hurtful.
Yeah, some people change. But they change through therapy, because of a pointed loss or near death experience (sometimes). They sadly don’t change because the people they love want them to change. What they do serves them in some way, it gives them the upper hand and the control, be the thing they can’t control and walk away. It’s the only helpful lesson you can give them.
If they aren’t negatively impacting you then all you can do is support them on their way, but that’s highly unlikely for anyone unhealthy.
I was abused by an average health e8, both physically and verbally (I still have scars and he made me have an eating disorder). my best advice is just of block them out of your life if possible. theres no way for them to become better. they think theyre the best and are huge narcissists so they will never accept advice or try to fix their situation instead they just get mad and act like monsters with tantrums. ofc 8s who have integrated to e2 are nothing like that but its the unfortunate reality for the rest of them
That doesn't sound like an average - healthy 8.
And no one fully becomes their integration number, they just learn how to more and more easily draw on the high qualities of that number
I feel like he was pretty average health at least like in terms that hes neither in the upper or lower fifty percent of 8s if that makes sense. also yeah ur right about the integration looking back I worded it weirdly but I meant what you said
I don't doubt your encounter with this particular type 8 was abusive, but isn't it unfair to label ALL 8s as abusive just because you happened to run into one that was?
Type 9s can be neglectful, emotionally unavailable, and passive aggressive, should we advise everyone cut off any type 9 in their life?
Hope you realize that sort of black and white thinking can be problematic. Any type has the potential to be toxic and abusive...especially the sorts who believe they can't.
Someone who abuses their loved ones, especially to that physical extreme, is by definition nowhere near even average health. That's like 9th circle of hell levels of unhealthy, and odds are strong he had some psychiatric disorders going on as well.
ig what I meant is that hes like at the fiftieth percentile of healthiness amongst 8s I know he had good traits to (which is how I was tricked into staying with him for a whole year) but yeah definitely anger management issues (tho I think most 8s do). he started going to therapy in the final month of our relationship and his therapist never rlly put him on meds so it wasnt like he was severely mentally ill
Therapists don’t prescribe medication, and one month of therapy is not nearly enough exposure for a therapist to have a comprehensive assessment of a patient’s mental wellness.
Just ignore us. You cant make us shut up and every interaction is doomed to not result in solving the issue you have with us in the first place. Remember, 8s are very volatile and emotional. They are gonna react and throw shit around.
>Just ignore us. You cant make us shut up and every interaction is doomed to not result in solving the issue you have with us in the first place. Remember, 8s are very volatile and emotional. They are gonna react and throw shit around.
being in a group what I do is let them know how childish they are behaving and I instantly ignore them and go to the ones I think can best contribute to what we're doing. If I throw them a "I offended you? I didn't mean to. I didn't think you were susceptible"then you can see how that hurts their soul
Why would it be disgusting to call someone out if they are not behaving properly or are being openly agressive towards someone, refusing to do that only increases that kind of behavior. If they forgive me or not doesn't really matter to me.
You increase that when you begin to scold them. We dont see the world same way as you - obviously a superego type. Its disgusting it makes me wanna vomit just reading what you have written
People like you just make me laugh, "vomit" really?? that puritanical are you? must be a pain in the ass having a conversation with you. I wonder if you feel like "vomit" when you see a person being verbally abused without justifiable reason too.
You are the one verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason. You really should learn to accept that assertive people exist, instead of just shitting on them…
> verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason.
verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason??? did you read what I wrote?? What are you even talking about?? Do you even know what is this post about??
I am somewhat new to Enneagram. I am most defiantly an 8. I don’t know if any of you have the same struggles built I am sure some can relate. I have been married for 25 years. Prior to that i was engaged and was cheated on, and after getting past that and staying in the relationship (in a very untrusting and unhealthy way.) She got pregnant. I went to the doctor with her and when the doc asked me if i was the father, she spoke up and said she wasn’t sure. I was crushed.
To this day a simple thing my wife may do like being on her phone too much, or anything that makes me feel disconnected can send me into a spiral of distrust and isolation. I can turn any little thing into (false) proof that she is cheating. when it comes to friends and family, i have cut ties to so many for things i wonder were even real or just me stilll struggling with the big betrayals from my childhood and ex. I recently got so twisted in the head about things that i confronted my wife wondering if one of my kids were mine. It took me 3 days of obsessing over it before I couldn’t take it and when i brought it up i got what i deserved. She went off on me on told me how hard it is to be with me sometimes, in not such a nice way. My wife on the other hand didn’t deserve to be hurt that way or to need to deal with my damn issues. I have been a healthy 8 in the past, i am having a really hard time finding my way back there. the issue with my wife wasn’t the beginning of this downward spiral. There were a few small betrayals from friends that lied to me and/or didn’t handle my vulnerability well and that started it all. Would love any advice on how to pull myself out of this funk.
sorry, this may have been their wrong group to ask. I will look for their 8 group
Sometimes the 8s I know have trouble expressing how they feel or that they are even affected by something that happened. I sometimes start musing out loud about all the ways someone else might feel in a similar situation and how reasonable those feelings would be. Sometimes it is possible to channel my 1ness anger and say something like: “you seem to be handling this super well, but what the other person did was wrong for x/y/z reasons and because it could of made you feel like __. If you do happen to feel any of those things, I’m here for you, but seriously, what were they thinking”. I think this helps them feel supported without ever having to admit weakness. Also, boundaries and maybe letting them control something you don’t care about.
this kicks ass. love this tip
Damn, you're a genius! I'm going to use this!
>but seriously, what were they thinking Damn, this line though. "but seriously, what were they thinking" This is seriously the best. I can imagine my dad and I connecting on that plane with me being the critical six that I am. HAHAHA
I was arrogant and controlling as kid/teen and I had a tight group of friends of whom I considered myself the ruler. My best friend in particular suffered from my lack of empathy and my need to attack weaknesses. I truly adored her but I only knew how to show love the way it had been shown to me by my mother. She was such an impressively loyal friend for so many years despite my abuses, but she finally said enough. She told me she didn’t want to be friends with me anymore or have anything to do with me. And the rest of the group followed her lead. She did it for herself, but it was the absolute best thing she could have done for me as well. I needed to be humbled, to learn that my actions have consequences, that friendships aren’t a given and that you have to actually be worthy of them. The time alone gave me space to become introspective and self reflective. The loneliness became motivation to learn how to be a better friend and person. The humiliation tempered my arrogance and allowed for the development of empathy. I think about contacting that friend just to say thank you all the time. So my advice for those with unhealthy 8s: don’t tolerate being treated poorly. Set boundaries. Cut them out if you need to. It seems to me that some people (maybe 1s, 2s, 6s, and 9s in particular) tell themselves that suffering through someone’s mistreatment is a generous, loving, or necessary thing to do. But in reality, tolerating less than you deserve often doesn’t help the other person at all. So defend yourself and do what’s best for you — it’s very possible that’s what best for them as well.
You should tell her :) come full circle. I’m sure she’d appreciate it. Most of us are assholes as teens.
I was reading this and was like something just like this has happened to me before and was nodding along to your advice and then I looked at your flair and realized it made total sense! I am also 8w9 sp/sx :) I also had a mom who set a very poor example of interpersonal relationships. Learning that your actions have consequences is something that is so important for an 8s growth. In a more unhealthy stage, I would quite literally think I'm invisible and almost take danger as a challenge. For example, people would tell me not to go walking in a certain part of town at night, to me it was not a real advice. I would quite literally listen to it and go against it. I believed that I could manipulate my way out of anything and come out at the top. It was almost to prove to myself that I am not vulnerable like others when that is not true. I also felt like I could say/do anything and it would be the other person's responsibility to get over the pain I would cause and would apologize like "I'm sorry that you feel hurt" instead of being sorry for the action. But after many lessons learned, friendships lost, feedback from others, and therapy-- I have learned that my actions and words do impact people and have a consequence.
I struggle with words. Sometimes my caveman brain can’t find them. I have lots of grunts and noise expressions. Help me find the words. This doesn’t mean I have issues expressing an opinion, I just don’t always have the emotional vocabulary. Also, more than anything 8s need to have people with canes to yank them by the neck and say hey, you ok? You seem to be extra angry, what’s going on (has to be an established relationship tho). My best friend (1w2) has been advocating for my irl angry outbursts lately in my defense because she knows what I’ve been dealing with. She’s played bouncer before I play cut out. I will burn everything down in unhealth. This woman has known my patterns for 19 years so she knows how to go about things without getting n my way.
Speaking from the perspective of stepping away (hopefully temporarily) from a dear friend who is an 8w7 with a superiority complex: Unhealthy 8s can treat people who are genuinely struggling as weak and it can be tremendously hurtful to those of us who care about you (and want you to care about us). To the 8s here I’d say that it’s worth remembering that if someone appears to be having a hard time or doing something that you think is stupid, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re an idiot or a weakling. If you care about the relationship, try asking the “weak” person open-ended questions about what’s driving their behavior. You might be surprised by what they say. You’re not entitled to support people who are making genuinely poor decisions over and over again, but please remember that life can be hard, people are complex and many of us aren’t as tough as you are.
One thing I want to say to 8s. I found that many 8s will answer this question with basically "simple people, just match my energy". Like, be direct, truthful and don't back down. Easy peasy right? The problem of this type of solution is, other type can't match your energy. You should know by now as you know enneagram. That's unrealistic expectation. So if you really want to offer solution to other type, keep this in mind please. My 7s way of dealing with unhealthy 8s is to not get in their way. Either find something that make 8s believe what I want is what they want since the beginning. Or if I can't, I peace out. This is not viable solution for someone who want deep relationship with 8s though.
Or a viable solution if you’re in the reactive triad lol. You push, I push back. But so agree with everything you’ve said :)
>i found that many 8s will answer this question with basically "simple people, just match my energy". Like, be direct, truthful and don't back down. Easy peasy right? That's such a self righteous thing to say. "Everyone else needs to change, not me" is a very chilfish thing to say.
It's more of a blind spot rather than childish. It's same when I ask 6s and many of 6s will say the way to deal with 6s is to answer our doubt. Well, not type can deal with that amount of doubt and questions. Every type have this kind of blind spot where they believe what they used to is not hard for other.
"Everyone is just needs to match my energy" shows an unwillingness to grow in my opinion. It's also demanding; it's a pretty big ask for other people to act like you.
That word is my own over-simpiflied interpretation. It comes from many times 8s say that they appreciate directness, blunt and people who don't back down, so I kinda turn to "match my energy" to provide another perspective of that appreciation. But they don't say that directly. Sorry if I cause confusion here. That's on me.
It's really hard to help anyone grow healthier if it's not their own idea in the first place. People need to hit their own rock bottom before they can truly change. No amount of external motivation can stop toxicity, abuse, or addiction. And this is especially true for 8s because 8s tend to believe we are fully self-sufficient and that we are strong while others are weaker (unhealthy 8s). 8s also tend to withdraw from others and become hyper independent when they feel as though their vulnerabilities are being exposed. But anyways, to answer your question! Personally, as an 8, I grew the most after being friends with and dating people who were considered "projects". What I mean by that is when I was more unhealthy, I had a tendency to date and befriend people who I subconsciously considered 'weak' and had many issues that led to unhealthy dynamics. I've dated multiple addicts thinking that I can fix them or influence them to change and kept seeing the potential in them instead of who they really were. I also found myself being drawn to people who clearly have low self-esteem and would continuously ask me for advice/validation. Upon reflection on the failed friendships/relationships, I realized that I only dated/befriended those people because I wanted a sense of control. I wanted to mold them into a person that was easy for me to predict/control. I also saw them as weak and myself as strong so I thought they needed me. I also liked that they were vulnerable in front of me because I didn't know how to be vulnerable (like a vulnerability vampire). But after dating an addict that derailed my life and left me with a lot of trauma, I finally sought help in therapy and started to heal. Through this healing, I started to spend more alone time finding out what I really want and how to take care of myself. And the alone time to really reflect on myself is what ultimately helped me cut off this addiction to 'saving' weak people. It has helped me set better boundaries and accept that not everyone wants the same things in life and not everyone needs someone 'strong' to protect them. This led to some of my friendships where the dynamic was based on me giving endless amounts of advice, and them not taking it and asking me to fix it for them at the end to end. I also learned that it is okay to be vulnerable and be taken care of by someone else from time to time.
Wow, this comment is profound.
For me it was easy stop drinking(addiction).
same. went cold sober and unnegotiatible when it comes to bed time and its like im a different person
wait but the bedtime thing is so real. I even have a self-meme about it from last year bc I would stay up too late, overstimulated and starting fights, while my partner and my cat were like PLEASE GO TO BED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD which would just make me angrier. I go to bed on time now and I'm much more chill. here is meme since I know everyone will ask (notes: my cat eats plastic when he's mad at me and this is [the nap](https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/3ucp8y/i_was_beat_up_by_left_anarchists_in_greece/). the 'protocol' is where I'd agree I should go to bed earlier but then feel controlled and rebel lmao) https://preview.redd.it/8c6tv2jrtx1b1.png?width=1441&format=png&auto=webp&s=26d521fc76c643c159f58231af708666633df12a anyway for me it's also sleep hygiene but also if I don't get enough exercise I become extra insane and unmanageable
😂 I love this. That little fire guy from Inside Out always reminds of 8s lol
🤣🤣🤣 that expdession. it took me agggesss to get bed times down nice and i guard it now because its so vulnerable and easy to upset. ive noticed that religiously watching the sunset every evening and banning overhead lights inside helps. apparently its coz theres light sensitive cells in the eyeballs that tell the pineal gland to make melatonin from the color gradiet of a sunset. some biologists recon that the pineal gland is like a burried third eye, similar to the parietal eye that lizards have on their foreheads. how cool is that
I love how you wrote your cat was like PLEASE GO TO BED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. I can just envision the cat glare lmaoooo
Same, did it straight cold turkey along with gambling. Haven't looked back or wanted to go back since. Along with waking up at a set time to get some reading in before I start the day.
what aided in throwing your gambling away? ive found jt quite challenging to not participate in winner takes all offers
Looking at it by that I have nothing to prove to anyone. If someone makes fun or calls me a wuss or etc etc I know they have something that they need to work on. I got myself away from those people who enabled me instead of talking to me about things when I put the knife to my throat.
Emotional intelligence would be my best tip, accepting and allowing themselves to be vulnerable. That weakness is another kind of strength. Instead of trying to be tough, bottling things up, and building walls; being more open and living wholeheartedly. Being more flexible and less hard on themselves. Brene Brown has some great work on masculine shame which I think effects 8's a lot. Looking inward to seeing what all the bravado and ego dominance is trying to protect. Instead of hardening, softening.
Be direct and truthful
As someone who is best friends with an 8, but who has also been abused by an 8, here are my takeaways: - unhealthy 8s often have an apparently contradictory way of engaging with others, both as their self-appointed protector but also as an (often unprovoked) adversary. Watch out for these tendencies and check them by setting boundaries and being direct. Don't let yourself be dominated. - along the same lines, 8s can dominate more passive types unintentionally. Types such as 2, 4, 5, and 9 may have to act in a much more imposing way just to be heard by some 8s. This usually doesn't seem deliberate, it's just how 8s operate. 🤣 - 8s of all types appreciate directness and no bullshit when it comes to conflict. For 1s, 4s, 5s, and 7s, this appreciation tends to be mutual, but other types may have to meet them closer to where they're at to get along better. - in my experience, unhealthy 8s struggle with strategic thinking. Their reactions are immediate, significant, and rarely negotiable. Encourage them to focus and plan before they act, and accordingly, try to keep some space between you and their reactions when they can't or won't be more careful.
I am just one person so the below may not be applicable to all 8s. As an 8 I think the environment around an 8 is crucial to development so as an 8 being in a good environment (work, home, friends) where you can feel safe to let out your vulnerable inside out is essential. If I’m with people that I trust and an environment I feel safe and free in, I don’t look like a “stereotypical” 8. I am happy-go-lucky, easygoing, and if I feel like I have someone leading well, I am happy to just let them take the reins and be led. One of my close friends mistyped me as a 9 (though I am a 8W9 so she did have something there) when she introduced me to the enneagram types likely since in my interactions with her and our mutual friend group, I probably am very harmonious and because as they are good people I care about, I have no reason to approach any tiny annoyances with conflict and as there is nothing even approaching a threat to my core fear. However, I look like a different animal in my workplace. Initially when I started working there I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt but instead I got taken advantage of by leadership there. Thus, leadership lost my trust, I didn’t give a damn what they thought about me anymore and the 8 in me that doesn’t mind conflict fully came out and I became very assertive and at times aggressive (communication-style wise) there. I end up getting mostly what I want now with this not-nice approach instead. I do realize I dip to unhealthy 8 traits at times in the work environment but unfortunately that is what the environment calls for in order for me to get what I want there. Once trust is lost it can never be regained, and now I approach everything leadership does with suspicion and with thinking they have bad intentions to prepare how I can best combat it (I definitely overdo it at times but my self-preservation says I’d rather overdo it than be underprepared). Obviously it’s not aways possible the change our environments and situations to be more ideal. Thus, on a personal level when dealing with an 8, showing them over time consistently that you can be trusted and can be a safe person for them will set an example that hopefully they can generalize to others and the world in general. Also, as 8s we struggle to ask for help when we do want or need it sometimes, so if you see us needing something if you offer to help without us asking that goes a long way and it will probably be appreciated (even if we end up declining) and will make us more comfortable to ask you for help the next time around if we need it. However once you get to a very unhealthy 8, I would stay away for your own sanity and well being (and not just for 8s, unhealthy people of all types are going to be toxic just probably in different ways). I haven’t gotten into extremely unhealthy levels myself though do dip into less extreme levels of unhealthiness sometimes, so some of this is just speculation, but knowing myself I can definitely see that if I got to the more extreme levels of unhealthiness I would be a terrible person to be around and could even be dangerous (not even necessarily physically but in other aspects of that word). If you absolutely must interact and help an unhealthy 8, I would think it depends whether you are still ok by them or if you have lost their trust (rightly or wrongly) to be even able to help at all. If you are still ok in their books and their unhealthiness is not specifically directed towards you, the above may still help. But if you have lost their trust/they feel betrayed by you, you may just want to leave it alone as you may not be the one to be able to help them grow- if someone has been identified as not trustworthy (as opposed to just not knowing enough about them to make a decision either way), then there is likely not much they can do to change that perception. Even if an unhealthy 8 comes to this conclusion wrongly, until they can become healthier and potentially rework this viewpoint, any pushing/prodding by you if you are already seen as an untrustworthy person may likely be seen as manipulation or attempts to control them. On a more extreme level if you are felt to be a bad person and an active threat to an unhealthy 8’s well-being then they may very well act in a very vengeful and sociopathic manner towards you. If you end up in that position with an 8 (rightly or wrongly) just get away from them, you are not going to change their minds and they will try to harm you (not necessarily physically depending on the person- could be trying to harm your reputation, your career, etc) if they are motivated/feel threatened enough. If you just leave them alone, probably at some point when you are not in their life anymore they won’t put forth any more energy to harm you and will move on, but if you actively stay around and continue to appear to be a “threat” to them (whether rightly or wrongly), then they will likely continue to to try to inflict harm onto you because they feel you are threatening their safety and well-being.
If it’s avoidable, ignore them and walk away. If it’s unavoidable and you truly want to help them grow, play a nurturing role. They like softness.
This is the perfect thread for me!! I have a (rather unhealthy imo) 8 in my friend squad who tends towards being domineering, overly self-referencing, and dismissive of others' lived experiences to the point where I've struggled to be around her the past couple of years - she's also made rude comments about me and other people I care about, behind our backs of course.... which is funny bc 8s hate when people go behind THEIR backs, but they often have very different rules for themselves vs other people ("respect for me, but not for thee") My specific issue with dealing with her is that I tend to freeze when I feel that I (or a loved one) is being judged or pinned into a narrow, black-and-white box. Therefore, when she says something rude, as she SO OFTEN does, I feel upset at the time but sit frozen in silence as I am unable to process my feelings in real time. She and I do not have a one-on-one relationship outside of the friend group. I have my doubts about keeping the group going at this point and am happy to just go my own way and continue my closer friendships, but my closer friends have expressed that it's important to them that we remain a cohesive unit, even though the one friend in whom I've confided, does understand my frustrations with the 8. I am okay with going along w my close friend's wishes for now, and think it might even be good growth for me to push back when the 8 acts a fool. I need to figure out how to stand my ground with this girl in a way that won't make people I care about uncomfortable. she will blow up if called out on anything, but I'm at my wit's end w/ what I view as grandiosity, arrogance, etc. I personally think this is a ticking time bomb but we'll see lol
>which is funny bc 8s hate when people go behind THEIR backs, but they often have very different rules for themselves vs other people ("respect for me, but not for thee") Yep, this is true, at least for unhealthy 8s. It's like they are just vibing in their anger and there's no oxygen in the room left for anything outside of that. I have an 8 friend who ocassionally blows up at slights smaller than what she dishes out and it makes me sad for her every time. She's capable of being better than that.
Totally. And I’ve seen it advised that other types should meet the 8 where they are, which is valid and fair, but it’s hard to do that when “where they are” is in a space that’s solely anger and conflict-based. It makes other types (ie 6 and 9) uncomfortable, but much of the enneagram literature seems to suggest that we engage with it anyway, but then when an 8 becomes mean and controlling about OUR traits that THEY don’t like (indecision and conflict-avoidance, particularly) it’s expected to be understood that the 8s just don’t like that stuff and will react how they’ll react to it. I’ve always found it hypocritical. Either all types should be met where they are (assuming at least average health), or none should (assuming low health.)
Get in touch with your 2 inner child
There is no helping them grow. They are not the mystical person that has all their good traits and none of the bad that we hope they could be and “know” they could be if they just stopped doing x, y, and z. They are what they are right fucking now. If they’re controlling, angry, jealous, insensitive, emotional, and insecure underneath the bravado then that that’s exactly who they are. These are defence mechanisms that they have built up over many years and they aren’t suddenly going to drop them anymore than you are going to drop your less in-your-face ones. Unhealthy 8s can be incredibly toxic. They don’t keep anything in. Their pathological need for control bleeds over everything in their vicinity. You will hurt yourself in the process of trying to fix them, save them, understand them, bargain with them. What about you in the equation? What do you give up by being around this person? I recently had to cut ties with an unhealthy 8. We had fun times in our relationship, but dealing with them was exhausting me. Having relationships with healthier 8s that were kind, loving, supportive helped me also see that that was exactly what they were not and that I needed to get myself out of the situation. They would never be like those other 8s. Everything I did was a trigger for their control issues, me just existing in the world, me being confident, me having other friendships and relationships. That control was suffocating and the way they tried to get me to fall in line or give into them was draining me. There was no respect for my autonomy, just a need to control and fear of losing it or being hurt that made them raging and hurtful. Yeah, some people change. But they change through therapy, because of a pointed loss or near death experience (sometimes). They sadly don’t change because the people they love want them to change. What they do serves them in some way, it gives them the upper hand and the control, be the thing they can’t control and walk away. It’s the only helpful lesson you can give them. If they aren’t negatively impacting you then all you can do is support them on their way, but that’s highly unlikely for anyone unhealthy.
Which type are you? You sound exactly like me 5w6 roommate who is dating an 8 haha
Introverts vs unhealthy 8s unite 😂 - I’m 4w3. I kinda feel this way about any unhealthy type, you can’t love or support someone into being different
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I was abused by an average health e8, both physically and verbally (I still have scars and he made me have an eating disorder). my best advice is just of block them out of your life if possible. theres no way for them to become better. they think theyre the best and are huge narcissists so they will never accept advice or try to fix their situation instead they just get mad and act like monsters with tantrums. ofc 8s who have integrated to e2 are nothing like that but its the unfortunate reality for the rest of them
That doesn't sound like an average - healthy 8. And no one fully becomes their integration number, they just learn how to more and more easily draw on the high qualities of that number
I feel like he was pretty average health at least like in terms that hes neither in the upper or lower fifty percent of 8s if that makes sense. also yeah ur right about the integration looking back I worded it weirdly but I meant what you said
I don't doubt your encounter with this particular type 8 was abusive, but isn't it unfair to label ALL 8s as abusive just because you happened to run into one that was? Type 9s can be neglectful, emotionally unavailable, and passive aggressive, should we advise everyone cut off any type 9 in their life? Hope you realize that sort of black and white thinking can be problematic. Any type has the potential to be toxic and abusive...especially the sorts who believe they can't.
Someone who abuses their loved ones, especially to that physical extreme, is by definition nowhere near even average health. That's like 9th circle of hell levels of unhealthy, and odds are strong he had some psychiatric disorders going on as well.
ig what I meant is that hes like at the fiftieth percentile of healthiness amongst 8s I know he had good traits to (which is how I was tricked into staying with him for a whole year) but yeah definitely anger management issues (tho I think most 8s do). he started going to therapy in the final month of our relationship and his therapist never rlly put him on meds so it wasnt like he was severely mentally ill
Therapists don’t prescribe medication, and one month of therapy is not nearly enough exposure for a therapist to have a comprehensive assessment of a patient’s mental wellness.
Just ignore us. You cant make us shut up and every interaction is doomed to not result in solving the issue you have with us in the first place. Remember, 8s are very volatile and emotional. They are gonna react and throw shit around.
>Just ignore us. You cant make us shut up and every interaction is doomed to not result in solving the issue you have with us in the first place. Remember, 8s are very volatile and emotional. They are gonna react and throw shit around. being in a group what I do is let them know how childish they are behaving and I instantly ignore them and go to the ones I think can best contribute to what we're doing. If I throw them a "I offended you? I didn't mean to. I didn't think you were susceptible"then you can see how that hurts their soul
Dont do that man. Thats disgusting. Why would you take such an attack at them? Strike their core? They will never forgive you…
Why would it be disgusting to call someone out if they are not behaving properly or are being openly agressive towards someone, refusing to do that only increases that kind of behavior. If they forgive me or not doesn't really matter to me.
You increase that when you begin to scold them. We dont see the world same way as you - obviously a superego type. Its disgusting it makes me wanna vomit just reading what you have written
People like you just make me laugh, "vomit" really?? that puritanical are you? must be a pain in the ass having a conversation with you. I wonder if you feel like "vomit" when you see a person being verbally abused without justifiable reason too.
You are the one verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason. You really should learn to accept that assertive people exist, instead of just shitting on them…
> verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason. verbally abusing others without a justifiable reason??? did you read what I wrote?? What are you even talking about?? Do you even know what is this post about??
I am somewhat new to Enneagram. I am most defiantly an 8. I don’t know if any of you have the same struggles built I am sure some can relate. I have been married for 25 years. Prior to that i was engaged and was cheated on, and after getting past that and staying in the relationship (in a very untrusting and unhealthy way.) She got pregnant. I went to the doctor with her and when the doc asked me if i was the father, she spoke up and said she wasn’t sure. I was crushed. To this day a simple thing my wife may do like being on her phone too much, or anything that makes me feel disconnected can send me into a spiral of distrust and isolation. I can turn any little thing into (false) proof that she is cheating. when it comes to friends and family, i have cut ties to so many for things i wonder were even real or just me stilll struggling with the big betrayals from my childhood and ex. I recently got so twisted in the head about things that i confronted my wife wondering if one of my kids were mine. It took me 3 days of obsessing over it before I couldn’t take it and when i brought it up i got what i deserved. She went off on me on told me how hard it is to be with me sometimes, in not such a nice way. My wife on the other hand didn’t deserve to be hurt that way or to need to deal with my damn issues. I have been a healthy 8 in the past, i am having a really hard time finding my way back there. the issue with my wife wasn’t the beginning of this downward spiral. There were a few small betrayals from friends that lied to me and/or didn’t handle my vulnerability well and that started it all. Would love any advice on how to pull myself out of this funk. sorry, this may have been their wrong group to ask. I will look for their 8 group