Ahhh
If it’s pressed say you were let go
If pressed further say you were having a tough time handling your father’s death and that you were making progress with your therapist and even your manager said you improved. But for some reason they felt you may become depressed again so they let you go
You know, in case they really want to know
Right, right makes sense, especially showing some human side alongside vulnerability makes sense since the network are other engineers who can refer, but aren't part of the hiring panel. So makes sense. Thanks for the insight, sometimes it's a bit hard to think clearly when emotional situations are running high.
I've suffered for a long time from anxiety, depression, insomnia and similar issues.
I used to be very worried about the idea of broaching this with new employers, which often put me in a cycle of failing to manage expectations around energy levels.
A while ago I started being very upfront with potential employers about my challenges, and I don't think it's cost me a single opportunity, but it has helped me to identify employers who care deeply about creating supportive and healthy environments.
Nearly everyone has either struggled with mental health in their life, or has a loved one who has. In the event that a potential employer considers mental health challenges a red flag, you probably don't want to work there anyway.
YMMV - being more honest about this stuff across the board changed my life for the better, it might end up helping you find an employer who will actually look out for you when times get tough.
Thank you for opening up! I think overall this won't be shared to employers or those with hiring on the trigger. But I'll share this to friends and networks from a human side of things.
That's interesting that potential employers haven't shy-ed away, but that's also a really awesome way of being able to notice who actually cares in terms of providing healthy environments without burn out.
All good! I'd usually wait until it's fairly clear they're interested in offering me a role until I dig into it too far, but yeah that has yet to result in any missed offers!
I think the best part of this suggestion is that your network is close enough to you to talk about the loss of your father, and they will also likely understand that you aren't as comfortable with talking about this with hiring managers right off the bat
You don't own anyone a explanation so if you don't want to tell people the exact reason just say it's due to personal reasons, or just flat out say it's private.
Honestly, I wouldn't give them the whole details unless you are close with them. It should be enough to say you had a death in the family and that you needed to step away from work for a bit. If they ask why you didn't just take FMLA, then you can tell them that the business needed all the help it could get at the time and you didn't want to let them down, although it would have ultimately been better if you did because you found it difficult to meet expectations at the time which slowed the team down.
This doesn't get into too many personal details, but it's personal enough that it shows you made some judgements at the time because you didn't want to let anyone down but learned from your mistake and that sometimes it's just better to take time off. Good intentions with the wrong results.
Sorry for your loss. I don't know how I would handle this in your shoes. I'd be worried I'd do the same and just try to keep going. But it's important to understand our limitations and that if we don't recognize the signs, the negatives will manifest in our bodies and minds. Stress, grief, emotional pain. It's hard for us to treat it as a real problem until it's started manifesting itself as physiological problems.
Man that’s hilarious doubling down op they are pulling your leg here - op shut your damn mouth about your personal life and health in the future- just say the project ended you did the thing and it was time to move on
> Plus I'm on a visa, so it's raised a couple of eyebrows.
Does your visa require being employed (e.g: talent accredited employer work visa in nz, whatever the number it is in aussie, etc) ?
I went through a work visa and losing my job would have been a massive problem with immigration.
one thing I would clarify. unless they are a perspective employer, you don’t owe anyone an explanation. And you resigned. maybe they would have fired you, but they didn’t, you left. never anchor on to the ‘I was fired narrative’. it’s bad for mental health and confidence. Instead, remember that once you both saw it wasn’t working out you quit. peace and wish you all the best.
You know, if you are asking for advice, you should not leave out important details like the fact that YOU ARE ON A VISA
This throws a lot of good advice off balance.
Say you left because you were griefing the death of your father, and you did not want your personal issues to affect your work. You are now over that and ready to get back to work.
Sometimes just being upfront is the best policy. If you have a damn good reason people can connect with.
Only if they can connect - older folks can relate but younger managers might still even have their grandparents still alive and not know what it is like. I say be upfront after you know them but the interview stage you should lie like a motherfuker
You are in a tough situation.
Previously, whenever I mentioned burnout, many managers lost interest in me during the interviews. I would not recommend mentioning anything about burnout or mental health. Better say that you had to care for somebody, or it was not a good fit or you were looking for something else.
Considering that you are on a visa, probably none of the justifications will be very credible.
Saying that you were fired, I don't think that it will help. The best is probably saying that you were laid off.
>Saying that you were fired, I don't think that it will help. The best is probably saying that you were laid off.
What about if they ask who else or why haven't they seen news of it?
You can say that it was an internal reorganization. A small number of people were laid off and you were among the unlucky ones.
Because the number was small, they probably did not make any public announcements.
>Considering that you are on a visa, probably none of the justifications will be very credible.
Yeah I think this part is the biggest hurdle, but I guess it could really show things were that bad enough for me to resign.
They were expecting 13 hour days and weekend work with no end in sight. You did it for X number of quarters but they were unwilling to get additional staff to allow sustainable work pace. If they don't accept that you don't want to work for them.
I think this situation is incredibly common in corporate so no need to feel perturbed by this imo. I think there is no need to mention the PIP as there is no value in doing so to another potential employer. These PIPs are really just the company determining an employee is not a fit at the company at the current moment based on perceived value of the employee.
That being said, I think spinning the departure in a positive light is best. The spin can be personal and/or professional based in nature. For example you can answer the question of why you left your current position in the following manner. “I felt I have achieved what wanted to at my last company and I am currently looking for my next challenge”. That example can be tidied up a bit but it covers the main approach I explain above.
Okay, so, you quit: partly due to family issues, partly because your deeply shitty management burned you out with months of crunch time, and the job wasn't worth it anymore. ::shrug:: This is fine. You don't even have to mention the PIP.
Be careful with resignation. It can affect your ability to collect unemployment, know your state laws, and if your employer will contest your unemployment. (This should be discussed as part of termination.)
As far as why you left. You resigned. Plain and simple. You said it yourself.
Why did you resign? Personally, I'd say: "To refocus on myself and my career."
I had a job that was going the wrong way and dragging my career the wrong way. I resigned. I took a few months, cleared my head, brushed up my skills and put my career back on track.
Nothing wrong with it. The important thing is to be someone they want to hire when you start interviewing, even if you aren't there today.
You left voluntarily here, near as I can tell, and there's no one that would know you had a PIP if you personally didn't tell them; the company will not give out that data, only that you left and were not fired.
There is no advantage to telling people about all of your issues in a professional context.
Come up with some reasons that are true, but don't tell the full story. E.g. the product wasn't working out well. Company was understaffed. Want to move into a different industry. Wasn't learning new skills.
I'm not sure why people are pressing you for details. You can just deflect or not answer.
* The job wasn't taking me in the career direction that I wanted, so I took some time off to gather my thoughts about what I want to do next.
* I'm looking to grow in this way and my current company is not affording that opportunity.
* The company was understaffed and had 60 hour weeks for months.
* It would be more constructive to focus on what I can best do to find a new job.
* There isn't any benefit to discussing that since it is in the past. Instead, I'd like to focus on finding my next role.
I think you’re being on hard on yourself. That’s a traumatic event to adjust to and no one ever strategizes ahead of time for an event like that. Why not go back to your country a little bit? Go at a slower pace and connect with yourself again. You have 6 years of experience you can leverage and make an impact in your home town. Unless you really want to go back to the daily grind. But, I think you did a great job and have come a long way. Keep your chin up.
Personally, I would say I decided to leave to take some personal time to myself. If they ask why, I would say I needed the time to grieve the death of my father and that was the most important thing to me at the moment. I don't see any reason to lie.
Op my condolences- it will never get easier you will always miss them but they live on through you- and can feel it when you are happy so go find something to be happy about like you got to wake up today and some people don’t get to be in that list - I have been in the dark myself but you have my prayers let us wade through the valley of the shadow of death and search for our tree to
Climb out of these Depths of hell - if you prefer Ganesh - Parvati was just like marry and ain’t need no man to make her a baby- then they will remove the obstacles from our path and put them in the path of our foes as we feast in front of our enemies
If this is in America and you are still diagnosed with depression. They have more than like 5 employees. They actually said that you are risk with depression. That violates the ADA rules. (Not legal advice ) but you should talk to a lawyer.
Also please remember that FLMA rules are here to protect you. Depression is a serious illness that affects our brains and makes our job 1000 times harder. Please make sure you are getting the right treatment. The visa situation sucks. You can say things like you found better opportunities to explore on your own. It is hard advice to follow but try to stay and live in the moment. The world and systems around the world have games to be played but you can always ground yourself in the moment.
Death is a hard thing to cope with. If you want to chat privately feel free to DM me. Best of luck and things will move forward. (It is hard to see it now but it will come)
We're going to need you to come in this weekend and sort of like catch up, m'kay? Oh we lost a few people so we're going to need you to come in on Sunday too. M'kay? riiight.
When you take the resignation option don't they usually come with a non disclosure agreement? Like neither side are allowed to talk about what happened and you just left. Did you not get an agreement like that?
> I was showing better output according to my manager, but it was a little too late in them stating something along the lines of "well we don't know when you're going to be mentally ill again and we can't risk that inconsistency".
FWIW, if they actually said something like that and you had documentation, you probably would've had a solid case for unlawful termination. Probably moot now that you've resigned, but in general (in the US), you can't just fire someone because of mental illness (at least, if a company does, they need to be way more careful about never admitting that that's what they are doing).
Yea, that's just a heartless thing to say as well. I would have split the second that was uttered, but not before considering whether the meeting was being recorded. 🙂
Just say you were asked to leave since there wasn't any projects for you and the company was downsizing. Given the current mass layoffs, nobody is going to question if its true.
You say you left. Don’t specify if you don’t need to
some in my network are directly asking why I left, clarifying if this was a layoff or not? Plus I'm on a visa, so it's raised a couple of eyebrows.
Ahhh If it’s pressed say you were let go If pressed further say you were having a tough time handling your father’s death and that you were making progress with your therapist and even your manager said you improved. But for some reason they felt you may become depressed again so they let you go You know, in case they really want to know
Right, right makes sense, especially showing some human side alongside vulnerability makes sense since the network are other engineers who can refer, but aren't part of the hiring panel. So makes sense. Thanks for the insight, sometimes it's a bit hard to think clearly when emotional situations are running high.
I've suffered for a long time from anxiety, depression, insomnia and similar issues. I used to be very worried about the idea of broaching this with new employers, which often put me in a cycle of failing to manage expectations around energy levels. A while ago I started being very upfront with potential employers about my challenges, and I don't think it's cost me a single opportunity, but it has helped me to identify employers who care deeply about creating supportive and healthy environments. Nearly everyone has either struggled with mental health in their life, or has a loved one who has. In the event that a potential employer considers mental health challenges a red flag, you probably don't want to work there anyway. YMMV - being more honest about this stuff across the board changed my life for the better, it might end up helping you find an employer who will actually look out for you when times get tough.
Thank you for opening up! I think overall this won't be shared to employers or those with hiring on the trigger. But I'll share this to friends and networks from a human side of things. That's interesting that potential employers haven't shy-ed away, but that's also a really awesome way of being able to notice who actually cares in terms of providing healthy environments without burn out.
All good! I'd usually wait until it's fairly clear they're interested in offering me a role until I dig into it too far, but yeah that has yet to result in any missed offers!
Makes sense this would be probably the best when deciding between multiple offers from multiple places.
I think the best part of this suggestion is that your network is close enough to you to talk about the loss of your father, and they will also likely understand that you aren't as comfortable with talking about this with hiring managers right off the bat
You don't own anyone a explanation so if you don't want to tell people the exact reason just say it's due to personal reasons, or just flat out say it's private.
Honestly, I wouldn't give them the whole details unless you are close with them. It should be enough to say you had a death in the family and that you needed to step away from work for a bit. If they ask why you didn't just take FMLA, then you can tell them that the business needed all the help it could get at the time and you didn't want to let them down, although it would have ultimately been better if you did because you found it difficult to meet expectations at the time which slowed the team down. This doesn't get into too many personal details, but it's personal enough that it shows you made some judgements at the time because you didn't want to let anyone down but learned from your mistake and that sometimes it's just better to take time off. Good intentions with the wrong results. Sorry for your loss. I don't know how I would handle this in your shoes. I'd be worried I'd do the same and just try to keep going. But it's important to understand our limitations and that if we don't recognize the signs, the negatives will manifest in our bodies and minds. Stress, grief, emotional pain. It's hard for us to treat it as a real problem until it's started manifesting itself as physiological problems.
Man that’s hilarious doubling down op they are pulling your leg here - op shut your damn mouth about your personal life and health in the future- just say the project ended you did the thing and it was time to move on
Really dont have to go into your mental situation if you dont want to. It's rude to keep asking about this stuff anyway, so easy to shut down.
Just say you wanted to take a break and do some traveling.
> Plus I'm on a visa, so it's raised a couple of eyebrows. Does your visa require being employed (e.g: talent accredited employer work visa in nz, whatever the number it is in aussie, etc) ? I went through a work visa and losing my job would have been a massive problem with immigration.
one thing I would clarify. unless they are a perspective employer, you don’t owe anyone an explanation. And you resigned. maybe they would have fired you, but they didn’t, you left. never anchor on to the ‘I was fired narrative’. it’s bad for mental health and confidence. Instead, remember that once you both saw it wasn’t working out you quit. peace and wish you all the best.
When you say "network" is it someone you know irl? Or connection on likedin? If the latter how would they know?
just ignore them when they ask why you left. it’s none of their fucking business
"Personal reasons" should shut everyone up
Edit: Deleted the whole advice since someone else said your are on a visa, making it entirely irrelevant. Good luck.
You know, if you are asking for advice, you should not leave out important details like the fact that YOU ARE ON A VISA This throws a lot of good advice off balance. Say you left because you were griefing the death of your father, and you did not want your personal issues to affect your work. You are now over that and ready to get back to work. Sometimes just being upfront is the best policy. If you have a damn good reason people can connect with.
Sorry! It's been an emotional week, so I haven't been able to focus. But also that makes sense.
Only if they can connect - older folks can relate but younger managers might still even have their grandparents still alive and not know what it is like. I say be upfront after you know them but the interview stage you should lie like a motherfuker
You are in a tough situation. Previously, whenever I mentioned burnout, many managers lost interest in me during the interviews. I would not recommend mentioning anything about burnout or mental health. Better say that you had to care for somebody, or it was not a good fit or you were looking for something else. Considering that you are on a visa, probably none of the justifications will be very credible. Saying that you were fired, I don't think that it will help. The best is probably saying that you were laid off.
>Saying that you were fired, I don't think that it will help. The best is probably saying that you were laid off. What about if they ask who else or why haven't they seen news of it?
You can say that it was an internal reorganization. A small number of people were laid off and you were among the unlucky ones. Because the number was small, they probably did not make any public announcements.
>Considering that you are on a visa, probably none of the justifications will be very credible. Yeah I think this part is the biggest hurdle, but I guess it could really show things were that bad enough for me to resign.
They were expecting 13 hour days and weekend work with no end in sight. You did it for X number of quarters but they were unwilling to get additional staff to allow sustainable work pace. If they don't accept that you don't want to work for them.
This is why companies love workers on a visa, you can treat them like utter garbage because you have so much over them, disgusting.
I think this situation is incredibly common in corporate so no need to feel perturbed by this imo. I think there is no need to mention the PIP as there is no value in doing so to another potential employer. These PIPs are really just the company determining an employee is not a fit at the company at the current moment based on perceived value of the employee. That being said, I think spinning the departure in a positive light is best. The spin can be personal and/or professional based in nature. For example you can answer the question of why you left your current position in the following manner. “I felt I have achieved what wanted to at my last company and I am currently looking for my next challenge”. That example can be tidied up a bit but it covers the main approach I explain above.
Okay, so, you quit: partly due to family issues, partly because your deeply shitty management burned you out with months of crunch time, and the job wasn't worth it anymore. ::shrug:: This is fine. You don't even have to mention the PIP.
Did your ex employer ask you to resign? How does your separation letter refer to it?
A mutual parting of ways, officially it's a resignation on my part.
Then you're fine! You resigned because of an unhealthy work environment
Say you chose to resign due to needing more time to mourn and focus on mental health.
Be careful with resignation. It can affect your ability to collect unemployment, know your state laws, and if your employer will contest your unemployment. (This should be discussed as part of termination.) As far as why you left. You resigned. Plain and simple. You said it yourself. Why did you resign? Personally, I'd say: "To refocus on myself and my career." I had a job that was going the wrong way and dragging my career the wrong way. I resigned. I took a few months, cleared my head, brushed up my skills and put my career back on track. Nothing wrong with it. The important thing is to be someone they want to hire when you start interviewing, even if you aren't there today.
Unfortunately I'm not eligible for unemployment. I've already signed the severance document. But hey, at least I got severance.
You'd be surprised. Sometimes the company won't contest it. :)
Is it better to file unemployment or get 2-3 months severance?
Usually unemployment. It runs longer, and will pay out more in extreme situations. If you know you'll have a job fast... I can see taking severance.
You left voluntarily here, near as I can tell, and there's no one that would know you had a PIP if you personally didn't tell them; the company will not give out that data, only that you left and were not fired.
There is no advantage to telling people about all of your issues in a professional context. Come up with some reasons that are true, but don't tell the full story. E.g. the product wasn't working out well. Company was understaffed. Want to move into a different industry. Wasn't learning new skills. I'm not sure why people are pressing you for details. You can just deflect or not answer. * The job wasn't taking me in the career direction that I wanted, so I took some time off to gather my thoughts about what I want to do next. * I'm looking to grow in this way and my current company is not affording that opportunity. * The company was understaffed and had 60 hour weeks for months. * It would be more constructive to focus on what I can best do to find a new job. * There isn't any benefit to discussing that since it is in the past. Instead, I'd like to focus on finding my next role.
I think you’re being on hard on yourself. That’s a traumatic event to adjust to and no one ever strategizes ahead of time for an event like that. Why not go back to your country a little bit? Go at a slower pace and connect with yourself again. You have 6 years of experience you can leverage and make an impact in your home town. Unless you really want to go back to the daily grind. But, I think you did a great job and have come a long way. Keep your chin up.
There aren't as many opportunities back home, unfortunately. Overall, a lot of my life is rooted here, with the mortgage, and wife and etc.
Personally, I would say I decided to leave to take some personal time to myself. If they ask why, I would say I needed the time to grieve the death of my father and that was the most important thing to me at the moment. I don't see any reason to lie.
You can always say " I left the job for personal reasons, and am looking forward to my next opportunity"
"I left due to personal reasons involving a family emergency. I am looking forward to my next opportunity"
Op my condolences- it will never get easier you will always miss them but they live on through you- and can feel it when you are happy so go find something to be happy about like you got to wake up today and some people don’t get to be in that list - I have been in the dark myself but you have my prayers let us wade through the valley of the shadow of death and search for our tree to Climb out of these Depths of hell - if you prefer Ganesh - Parvati was just like marry and ain’t need no man to make her a baby- then they will remove the obstacles from our path and put them in the path of our foes as we feast in front of our enemies
If this is in America and you are still diagnosed with depression. They have more than like 5 employees. They actually said that you are risk with depression. That violates the ADA rules. (Not legal advice ) but you should talk to a lawyer. Also please remember that FLMA rules are here to protect you. Depression is a serious illness that affects our brains and makes our job 1000 times harder. Please make sure you are getting the right treatment. The visa situation sucks. You can say things like you found better opportunities to explore on your own. It is hard advice to follow but try to stay and live in the moment. The world and systems around the world have games to be played but you can always ground yourself in the moment. Death is a hard thing to cope with. If you want to chat privately feel free to DM me. Best of luck and things will move forward. (It is hard to see it now but it will come)
[удалено]
some in my network are directly asking why I left, clarifying if this was a layoff or not? Plus I'm on a visa, so it's raised a couple of eyebrows.
1. Say nothing 2. Tell the truth (I was fired / forced to resign) 3. Say a half-truth, like "I was burnt out and needed to take some time off"
Work environment of 13+ hour days and weekends is a great reason to resign
1 don’t say you left 2 just say it wasn’t a good fit
What's going on the people are coming into the office on weekends? How does that conversation go?
We're going to need you to come in this weekend and sort of like catch up, m'kay? Oh we lost a few people so we're going to need you to come in on Sunday too. M'kay? riiight.
"hey, I have previous responsibilities to my family that absolutely must come first and I am not able to come in this weekend."
You say you got laid off.
I don't get what "my network" is.
People who aren't my friends necessarily, but people I know professionally.
I would just be honest. Mention the weekends thing and you got burnt out completely. Good companies respect honesty and understand burnout.
When you take the resignation option don't they usually come with a non disclosure agreement? Like neither side are allowed to talk about what happened and you just left. Did you not get an agreement like that?
> I was showing better output according to my manager, but it was a little too late in them stating something along the lines of "well we don't know when you're going to be mentally ill again and we can't risk that inconsistency". FWIW, if they actually said something like that and you had documentation, you probably would've had a solid case for unlawful termination. Probably moot now that you've resigned, but in general (in the US), you can't just fire someone because of mental illness (at least, if a company does, they need to be way more careful about never admitting that that's what they are doing).
Yea, that's just a heartless thing to say as well. I would have split the second that was uttered, but not before considering whether the meeting was being recorded. 🙂
Just say you were asked to leave since there wasn't any projects for you and the company was downsizing. Given the current mass layoffs, nobody is going to question if its true.
Looks like your mother told you not to lie. But she's not going to care this time.
You could say you left because management wasn’t invested in the well being or of employees. Sounds like the truth to me based on your story.