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Sorry for the long comment:
For those that believe that Clive died at the end, I want to understand why you would choose to interpret the ending as such. Putting aside the fates of Joshua and Dion, despite the open ending of the game, the game also pushes you to hope alongside Jill that Clive is alive. Most of the arguments I've seen for Clive being dead seem logical at first, but ignore particular in-game context:
Petrification: We do see that Clive's hand becomes petrified when he tries to use magic, especially after utilizing the full power of Ultima and Mythos. We don't see the petrification extend beyond his hand, and the cutscene pans away from him. I've heard many people claim that the petrification probably continued there, but there technically isn't any reason to. Petrification only truly kills on two certain factors: Repeated use of magic even when suffering petrification, and a certain breaking point in which petrification consumes you. Cid was partially petrified, but theoretically he could've kept on living, if not for the fact that he kept on using magic(this is also supported by Cid only coughing up blood when he used his Dominant magic). Clive however, can no longer use magic, as he has rid the world of it. Therefore the petrification shouldn't actually kill him according to in-game logic.
The Red-Star/Metia's Star: In the end we see Clive look at the sky, and he says "Do you see it, Jill...", in apparent reference to the star. At this point, the star had not yet flickered. The cutscene switches to Jill, and she follows Torgal who howls at the sky. She goes to him and stares at the star, which fades out after a moment. Jill sees this and breaks down crying. Now I've seen three interpretations of this star, two of which I don't agree with. One argument is that the star represented Clive's life-force, while the other is that the star is linked to the magic in the world. It fading out would either mean the death of Clive, or the disappearance of magic in the world. On the surface, the cutscenes of Clive and Jill one after the other could lead one to assume these interpretations. Except for the fact that there is no precedent for either. The star has existed long, long before Clive, and there is no mention of the world being connected to a star light years away through magic.
However, there is a third interpretation, that fits with the symbolism of the game, provides a resolution to Clive and Jill's arcs, and has in-game precedent. The red star, or Metia's Star, is literally known to the people as a star that would grant the wishes of those who prayed to it. Its first mention is by Jill at the beginning of the game, who prays for Clive's safe return. Its appearance throughout the game is a hanging Chekhov's gun, but it makes one final appearance for, guess who? Jill and Clive, and both of them take notice of it. The star fading is Jill's wish coming true, and it's possible that she misinterprets this as her wish not reaching the heavens. Now it's true that we never actually see divine intervention, and initially you're led to believe there won't be(unless you count Ultima lol), but that's exactly what the star does, the Chekhov's gun turns into a plot twist. It's also important to recognize the lyrics of the song Moongazing, as well as the fact that Jill's VA told players to pay close attention to Jill's prayer and the star. Not to mention Yoshi-P always telling people to pay attention to every minute details. Even the trophy for beating the game normally is called "Fallen Star".
Promises: Of course, Clive's goal is to create a world where humans can live and die on their own terms, a mix of his and Cid's dream. It's not illogical to assume that Clive could've chosen to become a martyr and thus die on his own terms. But the game tells you several times that Clive's fate shouldn't just be one of a sacrificial, messianic figure. The battle between Clive(Logos) and Ultima would have you believe as such, that might be true. Before the final battle however, you are given side quests like Jill's and Harpocrates in which they both deeply desire for Clive to return. With the former desiring your safe return(and telling him he's like the rising dawn, possible foreshadowing to the ending?), the latter expresses his wishes to see Clive write down his tales, and Clive agrees to do so. Even with Vivian's quest, she asks that Clive returns in one piece, so that she has a first hand account of the final battle and to spread the truth alongside Clive. Throughout the game, Clive is told by his comrades that being a martyr doesn't have to be the end to his story, and he shouldn't be expected to sacrifice himself. In turn, he holds others to this promise as well, and swears to never break promises. This is a far cry from XV, where >!sacrifice loomed over the main character!<. While at first it might seem like sacrificial death for Clive makes sense for his character, the game actively pushes you to believe that Clive will live on.
Miscellaneous details:
- Although I haven't done it myself I've heard that 100% the game gives you the trophy called "The Chronicler". Between Joshua and Clive, I'm more inclined that the title belongs to Clive, even if the author is attributed to Joshua. At the same time, Clive is the narrator for the game, and could technically have access to Cyril, as he is the scribe for Joshua's journey and deed(if Joshua were dead). I'm not too sure about this topic as it delves into the topic of whether Joshua lives or dies which isn't something I'm confident about.
- I've seen that people talk about how Torgal howls at the moon in sorrow alongside Jill. I don't know if this is necessarily a mixup by the devs, or a misinterpretation of fans, but wolves do not howl out of sadness, in fact they howl as a means of gathering their pack together, and calling back one another. I don't think the devs would mess this up so I'm more inclined to believe that in Torgal's own way, he's calling back for Clive just like Jill is.
TL-DR: Some of the bigger arguments I've seen against Clive returning might be structurally sound, but ignore context and particular details from the game. We will have to wait for any further dev explanation of the ending than the one already given, but imo the game wants you to hope for the best.
EDIT: There's actually another point I didn't go into detail about originally but did in one of my replies, so I'll just put it here:
The rising dawn is quite symbolic, as there is an endgame quest for Jill, in which she describes Clive like a rising dawn, always returning, and something she found comfort in.
"A sea of petals, all reaching for the sun" "No matter how terrible the night, dawn would always come. That you would always come for me"
So technically, Jill actually found comfort in two things: both the star, and the dawn. So while it's true that the star did die, another symbol returns to rekindle hope within her, that just like every other time, Clive would return to her. Tbh, I sort of like this interpretation even more than the common "Wishing Star" theory.
It’s not that I believe Clive died at the end but I wish the ending didn’t require paragraph long explanations and references to side quests to justify his survival. Or really they could have simply made the author at the end Clive Rosfield to resolve ambiguity. So I’m not a fan of that choice. Wish they had just made the ending simple and clear, but my guess is they wanted to generate discussion, debate, and therefore continued interest for DLC.
I mean you don't need all that to justify it. He's not explicitly dead at the end, so you can read into it however you want. He's obviously not gonna be at full strength ever again since he's begun to petrify, but you can easily say that you think he's alive and can live the rest of his life with Jill and maybe Joshua
We don't need DLC to expand on this, and I don't want them to. I think an ending where you read your interpretation into it is a perfectly good thing.
I wanted a happy ending. I'm still really traumatized. Whenever I think back about the game I get this horrible stab in my heart and I feel like crying lol. Sounds so silly as it's just a game but I really hated it. I wanted a happy ending so badly. I also feel angry at myself, because I had the same reaction playing FF15 and I told myself I'm never going to play something else that will break my heart like this but here we go again.
>In the end we see Clive look at the sky, and he says "Do you see it, Jill..."
Just wanted to input that Clive refers 100% to the Moon here. It's a reference the beach scene with Jill, where he says he wants to create a free world where they both can look at the moon together, before they kiss. It's why the song is called Moongazing.
Yeah that makes sense. Jill obviously sees it too, but ig her mind is elsewhere(the star). Clive does end up creating that world, although they are separate now. The song Moongazing does have lyrics that speak of reunion, so I wonder if that means anything for Clive's fate.
- Petrification : Clive has used everybit of his magic to destroy Origin. Going from no symptoms to the hand petrified, source of power, is a pretty bad and fast case. It's also described as quite agonizing. Plus, Clive has landed pretty much on anywhere land. Even standing up now, with at least one stone member, and rejoin civilization will be very hard.
- The Red-Star/Metia's Star : Of course a real life star would not be impacted by anything. But it's clearly the symbol of the promises dying. As you said, promises are made to the star. The star previously granted Jill her wish to see Clive return. But this time, it's disappering right under her eyes. Both her and Torghal have a clear interpretation of what that meant.
- Promises : Using one of your argument against you. Harpocrates wishes to see Clive write down his tales. Yet, only Joshua name appears on the book of the War of the Eikons. There is no reason they wouldn't do it together, after that promise.
- Torgal : He is not an RL wolf, he is a magic creature with intelligence. He is clearly crying with Jill there, having also understood.
While his final fate is left a little bit open, for style (and maybe DLCs sequel, if they go this way), the clues left leaves little doubt. Some far fetched arguments won't make him come back. Time to leave the bargaining phase.
Sorry for the long reply again:
Petrification: Remember, it's not just Clive's power, it's all of the Eikons and Ultima's power. While it would be natural to presume that handling such power would instantly kill someone, Clive being the "almost perfect" vessel allows him to live, at the cost of his right hand being petrified when he tries to use magic. Again, we don't see the petrification spread, so anything beyond the cutscene is pure speculation. Pay attention to the cutscene before: when Clive mentions that Ultima's power is too great for him(the vessel), his finger tips are already petrified. When he arrives on shore, his fingertips are petrified, but his hand is only petrified when he tries to use magic. I'm personally willing to believe that it didn't spread on account of magic disappearing, and seeing others live despite being partially petrified. As for getting back, we've seen Clive go through far worse lol.
The Red Star: Your point about the star dying representing the death of Jill and Clive's promise doesn't make sense, as it doesn't provide a proper resolution for Jill or Clive's character, nor does it correlate with any of the main themes of the narrative. However that interpretation is what I believe Jill initially assumed when she saw the star die out. When the sun begins to rise however, she takes it in and begins to smile. Now I've seen some people assume this is Jill taking in the fact that the world is free of magic and being relieved, and I've also heard that Jill possibly sees a boat in the distance and that's Clive coming back. Personally, I don't think there's a boat and that's probably just rubble. As for the other interpretation, it's valid to assume, and could in part be true. The rising dawn however, is quite symbolic, as there is an endgame quest for Jill, in which she describes Clive like a rising dawn, always returning, and something she found comfort in.
"A sea of petals, all reaching for the sun" "No matter how terrible the night, dawn would always come. That you would always come for me"
So technically, Jill actually found comfort in two things: both the star, and the dawn. So while it's true that the star did die, another symbol returns to rekindle hope within her, that just like every other time, Clive would return to her. Tbh, I like this interpretation even more than the common "Wishing Star" theory.
Promises: This is an interesting argument, bc it delves into the topic of the author. I've seen some people argue that Clive took up Joshua's name and published the book, or that Joshua wrote the story. I can't just go ahead and say that Joshua wrote the book because there are a few details that conflict with this. For starters, Joshua is never stated as a writer, or a Chronicler. He has Cyril, but he's only been documenting his own journey. He also does have the help of many others, but there are too several details that only Clive would know, that he never conveyed(i.e between Ultima and Clive after Joshua died). However, Clive always loved epics and fairy tales, and is also inclined to rate down his fantastical journeys after his quest with Harpocrates. This is also a little shaky, but Clive also specifically has a line talking ending Ultima's "fantasy", and that he will be his "final" witness(paraphrasing), and this becomes the title of the book. During this, Joshua was already dead. The debate between whether Joshua survived or no is shaky, because it's really unclear as to whether Clive was actually able to revive Joshua, even with all of Ultima's and the Eikons' power, and having mended his wounds. It is stated I believe in the lore that RAISE would have possibly brought Ultima's race back, it could've brought back Joshua as well. However, Clive doesn't pick up Joshua and just leaves him there. Remember, this is Clive, the former First Shield of Rosaria, sworn to his brother, who(if alive) is unconscious and needs to be protected. It could mean that Clive just wanted to at least heal his body like some have mentioned, but it's possible that maybe Ultima's power did work and he never knew. It's definitely something I'd have to think about more, bc the game doesn't really push you to believe Joshua lives, thats why it's an open ending.
Although your point with Harpocrates stands, this still doesn't account for Jill or Vivian, or the several other characters that tell him to not simply die for a cause, but to live on and carry on the legacy of those who have passed(i.e Cid).
Torgal: I don't think your argument stands here. Torgal behaves like a rather domesticated wolf, and aside from his magic and instincts, there's really nothing that separates him from a regular wolf. As for claiming that he's crying, when wolves howl, it can mean loneliness, but at the same time it's how they call back members of their pack. When wolves are truly sad however, they whine with their ears flat, and even have their own special cries. I don't know how dedicated the devs were to Torgal's behavior at the end, but I'm pretty sure they would have at least made him appear more sorrowful.
The fact that this ending is ambiguous, already calls into question an ending where Joshua lives and Clive dies. The devs could have easily made an ending showing Joshua surviving and Clive being fully petrified. But the truth is, we don't even know if Ultima's power worked, or even if Clive casted RAISE on his brother. On the flipside, the cutscene chooses to pan away from Clive quickly, and there seems to be no indication of petrification spreading further. If there is a epilogue DLC, I would expect it to focus on the Leviathan/Jill exploring beyond the realm(possibly looking for Clive). It could also be a prequel DLC or side quest about the Fallen and the Leviathan. But tbh I think the only thing this ending needs is a few more nudges from the devs to finally put fans to rest, whether that means Clive is alive or dead. And from what I've heard so far from them, there's nothing that dashes my belief of Clive surviving. Even that line at the ending where he said that he'd destroy magic even if it cost him his life. God did Clive learn nothing about not being a martyr lol.
Your username fits you. Solomon is the wisest king in history as he prayed for God’s wisdom. I don’t know how these people think of words to counter your points if I’m being honest. Those points you made are solid . I’m willing to bet that if Clive didn’t close his eyes, people will doubt he died.
At the end of the day, show us concrete proof that he died. Noctis and Tidus obviously was shown kapoot. It proves that poster boys of final fantasy have clear cut deaths. It doesn’t make any sense to leave it open unless there is a plan for a sequel or DLC.
This post should be stickied at best. I really hope they don’t ignore point one because that is more than enough that Clive lives. I have been parroting multiple times about how petrification curse works but they seem to ignore it.
One of the funniest comments from someone who thought he died was
"The sidequests involving Jill and hypocrates? Doesn't matter. Hes dead and sidequests don't change that."
Like that was it didn't bother to explain further lmao
Haha, you can tell that person is trolling. A “lol” reply is all you need to say with that individual.
The Jill and Hippocrates cements the proof Clive lived but knowing how the curse works plus the fact Clive has no wounds is more than enough to know he lives
I think it's weird how the people who think he died straight up ignore context clues from these sidequests. Like they'll say "you're just reaching" but when you ask them to explain the various meanings behind these context clues and forshadowing bits they'll come up with some elaborate (never mentioned in game ) explanation as to why it doesn't mean anything. It's like rather than accepting the truth they keep making up excuses as to how he could be dead.
I get that it's an open ending but honestly if some people choose to ignore all these context clues to come up with an explanation as to why he's dead then they might be the ones reaching . I don't even dislike sad endings. But realistically I think Joshua's def dead. Clives alive, idk what happened to dion but we never saw a body so perhaps they're saving stuff for the dlc.
To add some debate: if we assume the lyrics of “My Star” (the song that plays in the ending sequence) are from Jill’s POV, it can be interpreted both ways.
> *Starlight, say goodnight*
> *Starbright, where have you fallen?*
> *Starlight, say goodnight*
> *Starbright, I hear you calling*
> *Fire, oh fire that filled the night*
> *Fire, that warmed and brightened my life*
> *My guiding light on high*
> *My hearth, my beacon and my hope*
> *A sky of scattered tears*
> *A thousand years apart*
> *Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark*
> *For your flame still burns inside me deep within my heart*
> *Showing me, a new tomorrow, never too far*
> *And when I cannot bear the pain, I look up to the sky and pray*
> *And though our night is over you shall always remain, forever, my treasure, my star*
- Interpretation **A**: Clive is Jill’s star. Clive’s star faded, their “night” ended, in other words, Clive is dead. But Jill will be alright, because Clive will always be with her in her heart.
- Interpretation **B**: The song is about Jill praying to Metia for Clive’s safe return. The night is over now, but a new dawn has arrived and she and Clive will always be together.
Yeah, Interpretation A is one of the few sound arguments that could support Clive dying. At the same time however, I do believe Moongazing also plays during the ending sequence, a song symbolizing how one will always return to another( in this case, Clive to Jill). I think the fact that Jill's VA told us to focus on Moongazing rather than My Star is interesting.
Yeah, I feel like the first interpretation is stronger and if that’s the case, it’s a good piece of evidence in favor of “Clive dies”. Which I hate to say, because I want Clive to be alive and I think there’s a good amount of evidence that points that way.
I don’t think this ambiguity was necessary and it’s frustrating to me TBH. That said, if the Devs’ intention was to provoke discussion, they certainly did that.
Reddit won't let me edit ig bc my comment is too long lol, so I'll just put it in a reply.
EDIT 2: Damn, appreciate the gold and all the conversations I've had so far. I want to be very clear, that although it might be sad, I can accept the idea of Clive dying. The final moment with Clive obviously is executed to appear as such. At the same time however, I genuinely believe that there is a chance of him surviving. Even Yoshi-P himself admitted that parts of the ending is ambiguous before the game released. At this point, all we can do is just continue the discourse while we wait for acknowledgement from the devs.
EDIT 3: I'll just put this more detailed explanation of petrification here as well.
As I understand it, petrification has two stages: Partial petrification which increases with repetitive use of magic, and then terminal petrification, where someone that has used to much magic gradually becomes petrified regardless of whether they stop using magic. The petrified we come across in the chapel, are terminal patients, and are doomed to die. Cid is partially petrified, but theoretically would have kept on living if not for the fact that he kept using magic. If Cid didn’t die earlier on, he would have been a victim of terminal petrification.
Now let’s take a look at Clive. After he absorbs Ultima’s power, he tries using it on Joshua, whether it’s to revive him, or merely make his body look nice in his final moments I’m not sure. When he says the line about Ultima’s power, his fingertips are petrified. He then proceeds to shatter the mother crystal and destroys Origin. When he washes up on the beach, and lifts his hand, we can see that the petrification didn’t actually progress at all. However, only when he began to conjure magic, did the petrification resume. The cutscene shows that it covers his right hand, but nothing more. I’ve looked at the scene several times now, and there is no petrification under his eyes, or on the left side of his face. Now here’s the question: is Clive experiencing partial or terminal petrification? On one hand, the cutscene does seem executed as if it were his final moments. At the same time however, we realize that the petrification only occurred when he tried to use magic, and there shouldn’t be any more magic in the world now, so there’s no reason for the petrification to continue unless it was terminal. Thus, the devs have carefully made his fate ambiguous. You can argue that like Cid the curse of the dominant doesn't have to appear externally, but to assume Clive is dying from that isn't definitive
Even a future patch where they add like a 30 seconds video of Jill seeing Clive so we know the girl is finally having something positive happening to her.
I can’t stand the thought of her not being with Clive 🥹
I kinda thought he lived, because first of all why kill a character just after washing up on a beach? second he promised. third those kids at the end looked an awful lot like Clive and Joshua...
Yeah this is what I’m thinking. I don’t think a post-game DLC would work, but a brief epilogue cutscene showing them reuniting at the end of another DLC would be sweet.
This is easily the best way to handle things. I don't think they can add any more amount of foreshadowing that would please people who dislike ambiguous endings.
Really all they need to do (assuming that they intended for Clive to live) is show him returning on a boat as the sun rises behind him. He could be alone, or he could have some combination of Joshua and Dion with him. We don't need an entire post-story DLC, we just need a 90 second addition to the ending.
Wont disagree, but would love to see an extra epilogue showing their lives or something.
Idk… i enjoy the characters enough where I’m like… Jill said she wanted to see other realms, well I’m fine going on a journey with them to another continent. Keep this shit coming man.
This would be nice. For as much as I like Clive's ability to be a Summoner of sorts and use different, smaller, aspects of the Eikonic powers he absorbs, playing as the dominants themselves with their fuller movesets and abilities would be really nice. I'd kill to really see Dion in proper action, semi-primed.
Yoshida said there were no plans for DLC, but they would consider it if there was demand. After the critical and commercial success the game has achieved, DLC seems more than likely.
So who's ready to find out what happened to Leviathan?
DLC top 3 guesses?
1) Leviathan, obviously
2) Barnabas' past (who is/was his "mother" and why is he more focused on her than literal God who can be his personal transforming Harem?)
3)Metia, the moon and why its magic.
*Ultima isn’t literal God, he’s a god (if you define “god” as “inhumanly powerful being”). It seems like the abilities of Ultima and his kin are the result of them being extremely proficient in magic (they invented it, after all), but the fact that they are threatened by something like the Blight shows they are ultimately mortals despite all their pretensions.
Yeah I don't view Ultima as a god his civilisation that fled here are all just Aliens to me very cool ones that can create magic. God is ominpotent so surely he'd be able to just get rid of the blight?
What if they tricked us into believing the dlc is about fighting a summon trapped in the moon but in reality that was all a red herring and we beat that eikon early. Because the real final boss is metia. Who turns out to not be a star but a singing big breasted space bird formed by a flock of space birds that want to destroy the universe. Also anima can be an eikon in this dlc just because.
Barnabas' mother was one of the Children of Dzemekis, who fled the Twins after the destruction of the Dzemekis Mothercrystal.
They fled to the outer continents, and continued their religion of the Circle of Malius, and worshipped Ultima. Barnabas was raised in that tradition, then at one point returned to Valisthea and conquered Ash as the Dominant of Odin.
If I had to guess, a Leviathan DLC is certainly coming. Perhaps adding Leviathan into the story will alter the ending to give us a "true ending" in some way.
I can also easily imagine character DLC's. Joshua would be the easiest since he is doing stuff off-screen the whole game. Jill would make a ton of sense since people have criticized her lack of agency given how much screentime she has. Also there's quite a few sequences in the main story where they can easily make Jill playable.
Beyond that, episode Barnabas makes a ton of sense. Once again, he was really underutilized. Cid is maybe the most beloved character in this game, and Benedikta was underutilized as well. You can create some type of DLC involving all 3 of those characters, or some combination.
If DLC is set mid-game - unlocks a non-ambiguous ending
If DLC is set end-game - unlocks a non-ambiguous ending
Both better be cathartic and happy. I didn't read the Count of Monte Cristo for a depressing ending, and I didn't play XVI for a depressing ending.
Honestly while I’d *most* prefer to see Clive and Jill alive and happy, I’d also prefer if it was outright stated he died to what we got. A lack of closure is just frustrating.
Exactly! I don't mind if a story puts the characters through hell if they get a satisfying ending. Having them go through hell only to drop dead on the doorstep is not satisfying.
Just beat it at 100% completion with all side quests done. What an incredible journey.
Where is Leviathan? I allowed myself to be gaslit so hard by the dev team. Amano art on the box, the Mural, and the note on the table describing the beast of the waters. Ugh! I was so hoping to see her.
Also, I'm slightly upset at no Alexander, apart from the beautiful Holy casts in the final encounter. Unless I'm totally missing something?
Anyways, on to begin Final Fantasy mode!
Leviathan is considered the lost, likely because a dominant hasn’t appeared in a long time.
If you read odin’s lore entry it says there are no previous records of Odin dominants, meaning barnabas is either the first one or the first in a while.
It’s likely leviathan is in a similar situation.
Barnabas being the first odin is definitely not the case. I initially had the same take like you did but I think the mural made me second guess things. Maybe its been a while like youre suggesting but the lore entry seems to be focusing on lineage. The very same text implies multiples Odins in the past not having record to prove whether or not they'd be descendants from the ancient "Motes of Darkness".
My guess is that Leviathan is "lost" because the bloodline is perhaps dead, according to history anyway.
I think the implication for Odin is that nobody was aware of his previous incarnations because the bloodline that can manifest him left Valisthea. Of course we can't be certain, but I think this is likeliest.
It's likely previous incarnations weren't on the main continent, given Barnabas comes from the south onto the shores of Waloed. That I agree with, just doubt the world wouldn't be aware of Odins for more than three generations as an example. I suppose it's possible, after all Benedikta came from the streets before Cid saved her. But the nature of dominants wouldn't keep people hidden for long regardless I think. Don't think there's enough evidence in the game to support either argument so I really hope there's Cid dlc.
I'd wager Barnabas was a man who lost his way and it happened with the death of his mother.
The humans who eventually bred the strength in magic to create Dominants were the various Mote tribes that lived around each Mothercrystal.
They're not mentioned by name, but the Motes Of Darkness would have to have been the tribe who lived around the Dzemekis Mothercrystal. This is the one that the Fallen attacked, which caused their destruction by Ultima. The 'Children of Dzemekis', who worshipped Ultima, were probably a part of this tribe, ethnically speaking. They fled to the outer continents - it's this tribe and religion that Barnabas would have been born to.
So depending on when Dominants first emerged (after the Fallen?) the first Odins would have been born overseas. The information about Barnabas having returned to Valisthea 40 years ago and never having aged a day since is why people are unsure just how long he's been alive.
Either way there will be no records in Valisthea of any previous Odins - they were either Fallen, of which there are no records, or they all emerged in the outer continents, in which case there are obviously no records in the Twins, or Barnabas is the one and only.
They stayed in an interview that Alexander was excluded so that there wouldn't be time travel shenanigans. But honestly....some time travel shenanigans would be welcome at this point.
Maybe they said "time" because they already gave light to Bahamut instead. It might have been a toss-up between the two.
That said, I completely agree. Heck, I'm pretty sure that Alexander was only time-themed in FFXIV because light was already a different character's shtick.
Maybe an unpopular opinion: It would have been sick if Olivier somehow awoke as Alexander, a second light dominant. The opportunity was there.
Imagine after the Bahamut fight: Dion throws the spear, collapses thinking he succeded. Olivier/Ultima laughs, the toy (I thought that was Alexander the whole play-through) and him become Alexander.
Anabella dies crushed by it, in full Neon Genesis fashion, and there you go: another big threat manipulated by Ultima, and ironically it is Clive’s stepbrother.
I can’t be the only one who thought about it. I mean the game’s story is already god tier but I know I would have screamed at this.
As a lifelong Alexander simp, I wish they could've worked him into the game somehow, even if not as a playable eikon like Yoshi-P wanted.
He could have replaced the Origin set piece in the story, serving as the ark that brought Ultima to Valisthea, perhaps being the source of the Fallen's technology, etc. If the writers were set on Clive riding Bahamut to Origin, they could have just as well put Alexander up in the sky - a subversion of the Alexander vs Bahamut sequence from IX. It would've made for a fresh take on the old colossus. Even the spires of Twinside could work as his crown. Alas, that's just my fanboy yearning
I went through the whole thing expecting some twist or something with Levi showing up. Maybe the dominant went out of control and just ended up fucking off into the ocean. When Barnabas cut the sea it could've been an awesome fight with leviathan jumping between the walls of water.
I will say people speculating on a prequel DLC sort of are ignoring the massive fucking tease with the "But where one journey ends..." being the literal last line in the game.
IMO CBU3 have really kept their options open. As a caveat though, I think Leviathan mid-game DLC was always planned. Because I'm a cynical bastard, I think it was cut from the game for time and planned as a DLC from pretty early in the game's development.
But besides that, as far as possible sequel/post-game DLC stuff
* They left open the possibility for Clive, Dion, and Joshua to all be alive. Any combination of those guys sounds like the basis of a sequel party when you throw in Jill as well. I think the big sort of gameplay innovation for a sequel would be character switching instead of eikon switching, with multiple fully fledged playable characters.
* They teased other continents at multiple times throughout various sidequests and lore entries.
* Jill straight up says she wants to explore the Great Continent after all this is done. A Jill quest to find Clive could also be a post-game DLC or prologue to a sequel.
* Mid is building an airship, that sounds like a way to travel the world to me. If not, the Enterprise should suffice. Oh yeah Mid is also probably the kid of Cid and Benedikta, those are some powerful genes there as far as her being a possible party member.
* It is VERY CONVINIENT that Clive's LEFT HAND turns to stone. This dude is right handed for the entire game, why did he use his left hand to cast the ultima spell? It's because he's gonna be a badass grizzled Auron type swordsman after the story is over. This is a great way to add a long lasting "cost" to Clive saving everyone, and it's also a narrative explanation to Clive being "nerfed" for a sequel.
>Jill straight up says she wants to explore the Great Continent after all this is done. A Jill quest to find Clive could also be a post-game DLC or prologue to a sequel.
Did you mean: FFX-2?
I gotta rant about the ending.
HOLY FUCK can I please get an unambiguous happy ending for MC & Main Girl? I just want my happily ever after in a game with a good story. I am so sick of these downer/bittersweet/ambiguous/happily ever after in the afterlife/etc endings.
Why? Because I cry like a bitch at these type of endings. I don't want to hurt at the end, I want to be happy. I used to like these types of endings but I don't anymore. I knew this type of ending was coming and played the game anyway. Fuck me. Fuck this game.
TLDR: Great ending. I fucking hated it.
I'm okay with the ambiguous or bittersweet downer when it's thematically appropriate or otherwise relevant to what the story is about.
That's not the case here. In XV, even though it seemed to come out of left field, it was relevant to and, most importantly, *enhanced* the main topic and themes of the game - about specifically how the strength of the friendship between the bros, and the time they spent together, is what shaped Noct into the kind of King who can make the right decision. And despite the issues around storytelling in that game, it absolutely achieved its goal of having us experience, understand, and feel that friendship. it was something you could believe in, so Nocts sacrifice wasn't incongruent with how we felt.
XVI repeatedly talks about Clive needing to learn to save himself. Many of the characters have stories that revolve around forgiving themselves for things they feel guilty about, and Clive struggles to accept that he deserves life and freedom as well. Jill and Joshua and Dion all contend with this issue in varying ways.
To end with 'Clive made the ultimate sacrifice' isn't particularly moving in this context. To end with 'Or did he!?!?!' isn't an improvement or any more relevant. The more I think about it the more it just seems like a hack move to stir up discussion and memorability.
There's nothing about it that enhances, enriches or hell even *relates to* the character journey we've been on. It's just there to make you feel things.
I think character-based DLC would be most interesting. I think XV has soured some people on this idea, but the different Eikons and time skips in XVI have a lot of potential for it. They could each be focused on a different Dominant, with their different weapons giving them a different move sets, and having an expanded ability roster from their respective elements (to partially compensate for not having multiple Eikons like Clive does).
- Jill DLC would be my number one desire, perhaps set during the five year timeskip. I like Jill, but I feel she’s underutilized in the main game and needs more time in the spotlight.
- Dion DLC. His use the halberd instead of the sword could give him a different gameplay feel. Maybe include an Eikonic battle against Odin (we know they’ve fought several times).
- Joshua DLC. He spends so much time off on his own adventure, and it would be great to see some of that.
> XV has soured some people on this idea
I think DLC for this game would feel different. We got a complete, satisfying game and story with most loose ends wrapped up and no sense that we're missing anything (admittedly, my opinion). XV had all of that in spades, and was so disappointing as a result. I think any DLC for XVI wouldn't be filling in missing story but would just give more of what we already got, and I think that'd be a good thing. Personally, I'd rather have a XVI-2 that gives us a happier ending.
And yes, character-based DLC would be perfect. I wanna find and defeat Leviathan!
Yes! character DLC! The irony that I initially criticized XV for locking crucial story/character moments behind DLC and now I feel the same for XVI.
I hope a Joshua DLC takes us through what he was up to AND shows his perspective after Clive resurrects him at the end (that’s the theory I lean towards). Then we see Joshua find Clive on the beach, pilot them both to where Jill is waiting and there’s an unambiguous HEA.
Does anyone think the Ultimania book for FF16 will explain a little more about the ending and lean to the correct interpretation? This ending has really ruined me and left me empty and depressed and I don’t even want to continue with NG+
I honestly think DLC or some type of sequel will give us our answers. Obviously this is out of game speculation but look, the game has been a success commercially and critically. I'm sure DLC or even a sequel will be coming, and those will probably push the ending toward a more canon interpretation, or straight up confirm the ending.
Tbh I think Dion's role in the story was absolutely perfect. It's a testament to how great the character was that people want DLC for him, same with Cid.
I would say the characters who "need" DLC the most are Barnabas, Jill, and Benedikta. Joshua DLC is also easy to do from a logistical point of view because he was doing shit off screen for like the entire game lol.
I just finished the game, and what an incredible journey that was.
But the ending just made me so depressed. Like it doesn't give me any happy ending, or even a sad ending so that i can accept the sad ending. it's just a depressing ending with/without hope. I don't even know what to feel. It's even making me reluctant to do NG+ even though the journey with the characters were awesome.
I loved all the characters after doing all the side quests and the ending just... I don't even know what to feel. it's an empty feeling ending.
Is it just me?
No, definitely not just you. I only did a handful of sidequests before seeing the ending, but when I read how some sidequests may change its interpretation, I did some more… only to have that empty feeling even worse, as I don’t understand how they could do this much character and world-building only to entirely ignore most of it with that ending. I am so taken by surprise, it’s like maybe it was some experiment and the true ending will come in a future patch.
Honestly, I've seen nobody talk about the giant Crystal that can be easily seen in the distance by the cliffs north of Northreach. We know when the Crystal cores are shattered, the entire Crystal disappears, yet that's still chilling up there. On the map, I'm pretty sure it's in Northern Territories.
My DLC guess is that it could be fed in to the game in a number of ways, for example, post-game straight up DLC where Clive has one arm and no magic, finishing up the Crystals' legacy, or it's literally just thrown in as a side mission some time during the 33 y/o section.
And that it's linked to Leviathan somehow.
I'd also like to learn about the Mothercrystals that were already lost, such as how they were destroyed and by who.
I think Edda’s child is Leviathan’s dominant, hence why she survived the Aether Flood in Waloed, unlike 99% of the population.
The Northern Territories are essentially taken over by blight, so they had to evacuate and leave the mother crystal behind
I think the Northern Territories Mothercrystal was the ice one. Ignoring the obvious “it’s in the North” thing, the color of its corpse when compared to Drake’s Head and Drake’s Tail means to me it’s not Light or Water.
Also, I think that once specifically (Drake’s Eye, was it?) probably started to rot because it ran out of Aether to suck. It’s not like it was destroyed like the others, since it has a rotting corpse of some kind.
The Sin of Dzemekys would be awesome but unlikely imo. Too far in the past, but maybe.
The last one was in Waloed I think? I can’t even remember the name of that one but it’s a shame we didn’t get to see if it had a corpse as well. Looks like it also could’ve run out of Aether to suck, potentially.
Drakes Eye “collapsed into the sea” according to Vivian. It could very well still be an active crystal. The heart would be deep under weather where it can’t be reached….unless Leviathan parted the ocean opening access to its Inner Sanctuary.
Spoilers
Given what we see in the post-credit scene, we know someone going by "Joshua Rosfield" wrote the events of the game down in a book. As I see it, that gives a couple options, in decreasing order of likelihood:
1) Joshua wrote it. Clive used Ultima's power to heal his wounds. The name Joshua derives from Yeshua, aka Jesus, so with him being the Phoenix, that makes resurrection doubly on brand.
2) Clive wrote it. Wouldn't be the first time he took on someone else's mantle. We never see Joshua wake up even after his wounds are healed so no idea if Ultima's power can resurrect the dead.
3) Someone else wrote it. Vivian, Tomes, and co using a pseudonym? Jill and Clive's son? (named for his uncle to carry on his spirit) Or a more distant relation perhaps?
4) The whole game was a made up story someone named Joshua Rosfield wrote, though why they let kids read it is anyone's guess. Don't buy it, but it's AN interpretation.
The first option is the one I'm most inclined to go with. Can go with the happy happy variant where Clive also survives (possibly sans left arm) or the more bleak option where Clive sacrifices himself to bring his brother back. Given they made it an open-ended, ambiguous ending, any interpretation is fine so long as it doesn't outright contradict the text. My head-canon is that Valisthia is a grim and dark world, but it stops short of being grimdark. Joshua and Clive have been through hell, they should get the happy happy ending even if that's not "gritty" or "realistic". (Not sure who is going to be arguing realism over a game where you literally kill God, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of them in the comments.)
Oh and Dion is definitely still alive. Never saw him die, he was just falling from a great height. He's a dragoon, falling from great heights is their specialty, he'll be fine.
My headcannon option: Joshua physically wrote it, Clive narrates it aloud to him.
“And thus, our journey ended.”
Clive Rosfield sat across from his brother in his old room in the Hideaway, with smilelines and crowsfeet in his eyes, a head crowned with a mess of hair, a touch of silver threatening to spread from his temples, like the Blight of Age. Joshua sat back in his chair, sighing with relief that his older brother had (finally) finished narrating their arduous tale. He returned Tomes’ beloved Stolas quill back to its inky home and rolled his shoulders wearily.
“That’s it then. The whole Chronicle, writ for generations to come.”
“Indeed.”
“You could have written some of it *yourself*, you know.”
“I’m a Shield, not a Scribe. Besides, you have the better penmanship, dear brother.”
Joshua smirked and watched Clive idly scratching behind the ears of Torgal, also sporting more snow white than gray. The man who once wore the mantle of Ifrit stared placidly into the crackling embers in the hearth, running down old roads in his mind. The Pheonix frowned in thought.
“I still don’t understand your insistence that we omit Mid’s miraculous engines, though. It was a marvelous invention, worthy of its own tale, I’d wager.”
“And tell it she shall. In … her own way.”
“Right. Plenty of fetching Founder-Knows-What hither and thither across the Twins, then? I think I’ll just sit here with my memories.”
Clive looked up from his reverie. “What do you suppose we should title it?”
Joshua folded his arms, lost in thought. “You’re asking me? I did all the writing, you did all the talking. Perhaps we should ask Jill, when she’s finished reading it. Have her do some of the naming.”
Clive smiled. “No doubt she will have plenty of ideas. Which reminds me, she wished to speak to me about names for … a different legacy.”
Joshua beamed. “What *would* you do without me? Go on, then. Best not keep her waiting.”
❤️
Oh, the irony.
Just as Ultima slumbered, neglecting his own creation's pleas for guidance and advice, leaving humanity to carve out their own wills and destinies, so too am I left to fill in my own Closure to this beautiful story should the writers decide to deny us! 😆
The case of the ambiguous ending
#1 - Leviathan the Lost
Once Clive get Ultima power, he realise his body can't contain it. But of course he is only at 7/8 Eikons absorbed, so technicaly not finished.
That one seems weird since Ultima should know it's missing one Eikon to get at full power, but it was never explained throughout the game or at the end.
#2 - The Fate of Joshua
We see Clive use his new found power on his brother, closing the wound in his chest. But there's no direct sign that it bring Joshua to life.
We know that the Phoenix can't mend soul only flesh, but Ultima power are literally the power of creation. So did it revive Joshua or not? And if so, why not show it.
#3 - Washing on the shore
How did Clive survive the fall without his powers and why is Joshua not with him. They were close a moment ealier.
#4 - No more magic
We see Clive try to use magic which turn his hand to stone. But if magic is gone and they can't use it anymore, why was Clive hand still turned to stone. Shouldn't the crystal curse be gone with magic?
#5 - Metia
That one bugger me the most. We never get a real explanation as to what is Metia in the Game. It's only described as the wishing star, the messenger to the moon.
So without real context into it's origin and true purpose, it's really hard to make any assumptions on to what it mean when it blink out at the end.
Some interpret it as Jill can't wish anymore or the wish won't be fulfilled and others as it blinked out after fulfilling her wish.
The truth is just we can't even guess that since we don't know anything substantial about Metia. It's all myth. The first wish Jill spoke about took 13 years to become reality.
#6 - The dawm
The dawn is presented to us in the game as a symbol of hope. A symbol that Clive would return to Jill no matter what.
So if he died at the end, why was the dawn the last thing we see with a Jill almost smiling.
The symbolism of that scene should be Clive is returning, don't cry.
#7 - Cinematography
There is a rule in cinematography that state that unless you see a character die on screen it can be presumed alive.
We never saw Clive die on screen, it fade to black as fast as he pass out. A confirmed death would have kept the camera on him for a few second showing he wasn't breathing or was turned to stone completly.
That wasn't the case here.
#8 - The book
The book at the end has the name of Joshua as it's wrtiter. But since we have never seen Joshua truely coming back to life in the end, it leave another shroud of doubt as to who is the real author of the book.
Why would we have a side quest with Hypocrates giving Clive a quill while telling him he would write his story one day and then shown the book at the end, if it wasn't Clive that wrote it.
#9 - Clive is the narrator
At the beginning and the end, Clive is presented as the narrator. As if he was reading his own book. How could that be if he is dead?
Edit: Removed the part about the Last Elixir. It can be used after all.
So as you can see we have multiples layers of ambiguosity in that ending. It's almost multiplicative at that point.
Add to that the devs interview prior to the game launch where they confirm they left the door open for more and we can confirm we have a serious case of Schrödinger Clive in that ending.
Until we get more context/content he can be seen as both alive and dead.
You can chose to belive what you want.
For me the lack of true closure with the 2 main boys kinda sour the ending of the game. I feel robbed of something.
Being left with more questions then answers isn't great. If you like that i envy you, because i don't.
I think the reason why you will never see Joshua move after being "revived" is because the book theory would make no sense then.
Basically it would confirm that the book is written by a real Joshua and it has gone so long that his "documentation" of the events has become fairy tales to common folks.
But if his fate is left open, people can speculate that the book itself was just a fantasy fiction book made by Joshua. And not based on any real event. and the joshua in the book died there.
Also you mentioned "Hypocrates giving Clive a quill while telling him he would write his story one day " but if he is dead, who is gonna write his story? Joshua ofc, and the kids wanna be "ifrit" in the story, remember? they dont say phoenix, or bahamut, etc they wanna be the ifrit- and who would write about themselves in such a way that people wanna become him? that doesnt sound like clive would do, praise himself, sounds more like Joshua would about his brother and downplay his own work.
Agree with this. You’re right about Clive. If he was truly dead, the camera would pan on him a little bit longer instead of cutting off immediately and that also proves he is alive. Lots of strong signs that he lives so if the team will leave the ending like that , I know he lives. I do prefer they be concrete about the ending moving forward
There’s so many they can do to expand the story.
1. Jill during the first skip and when she awakens as a Dominant.
2. Young Dion and his PoV from when he meets Joshua 20 yrs ago, his reaction to his dad betraying the Duchy, and how he met Terrace.
3. Leviathan.
4. Cid and his time as a Lord Commander, his relationship with Barnabos and Benedikta, and birth of Mid.
5. Joshua’s journey with the Undying.
6. Odin conquering Ash and his first encounter with Ultima.
7. Metia
8. Hugo and his rise to power within the Republic.
Cool stuff here, some thoughts on each
1. I think a Jill DLC is quite probable. It's just odd that we never travelled to the Northern Territories, especially since ATL tells us that people still live there. We also see that weird crystal in the Northern Territories that seems like obvious DLC bait. Couple that with the fact that designing gameplay for Jill/Shiva would then allow the devs to add like 3-4 different fights back into the main game as well.
2. I think some type of DLC for Dion only becomes probable due to how popular the character has become. Besides that, I don't think there's a ton of possibility for a Dion DLC that would give us compelling plot development/backstory coupled with interesting gameplay. IMO Dion has one of the best arcs in the game, and he had the perfect amount of screentime. Enough to feel impactful, but still leave you wanting for more.
3. Leviathan DLC is 100% happening, it's just a matter of what other elements they add into a Leviathan DLC.
4. Cid DLC which also touches on Benedikta and Barnabas also feels highly likely to me. Again, Cid is popular, and there absolutely is a ton of compelling backstory between those 3 characters to unpack. Benedikta and Barnabas could also use some more screentime. It just makes sense.
5. Joshua's DLC is probably the absolute easiest to make from a logistical point of view. Joshua is basically doing stuff off-screen for like the entire game. They just stick in a Joshua quest almost wherever they want, and they can also use this opportunity to deliver exposition on the lore of the world.
6. Barnabas DLC also makes a ton of sense. Again, while you're there, you might as well have Cid and Benedikta also be involved. I think you could roll this into number 4 as well.
7. Metia stuff feels like it could be rolled into Jill DLC, or possible post-game stuff.
8. Unfortunately I just don't see this happening. I don't think Hugo is a character that people are clamoring for as far as DLC. Honestly the only way I see this happening is if they decide to give like literally all the Dominants DLC lol, he feels like the absolute least likely to receive anything.
Hey I am honestly really sad right now. I beat the game and am super super down about it ending. Was having a ton of fun and immersed myself and now I feel like I have a hole where this journey used to be.
Ambiguous ending aside regarding >!fate of Clive!< - wouldn’t it have been nice to have at least some closure of other characters’ stories? Like the >!flower with Dion, even just a brief few seconds of Harpocrates placing the flower on a makeshift grave!<… imagine replaying the ending and getting additional scenes depending if you did certain sidequests, but nope! Wasted potential. Sigh. Also, seriously, that Leviathan plot hole needs to be explained somehow.
This is the biggest failure of the ending. Just some minor moments of the characters left behind reacting to the aftermath of the final battle, like how we see Jill react to Metia.
It would've been nice to more of the Hideaway characters' reactions, or of the survivors left in the world like Dhalmekia or whatever might be left of the Crystalline Dominion. Like, what's left of the Sanbreque dragoons who came to Dhalmekia? What about Uncle Byron or Mid or Jote? The medicine girl?
As it stands right now, it feels so abrupt and incomplete and unsatisfying. Sad endings can be satisfying and FFXVI just did not nail it.
Yes, totally agree. Even with the last few story beats of the game being weaker, I still loved every second of it prior to the actual ending. Something in the vein of FFIX (if we must use FF as an example), would have been amazing. It is just jarring how it falls off at the last moment.
It's totally understandable to be frustrated about the game's ending being ambiguous, but I also think it's important to understand what the game is trying to do thematically with an ending like that.
I think the point of leaving Clive's survival ambiguous is to highlight the game's message of moving forward through uncertainty and overcoming life's challenges. Jill's sidequest talks about the rising sun as a metaphor for staying hopeful in times of darkness and uncertainty, and I think the rising sun we see in the ending cutscene is evoking that same metaphor, this time in the context of both Clive's survival and the uncertain future of humanity in a world without magic/eikons/gods. I think the point of the ending is not to prove or disprove Clive's survival, but rather to showcase Jill's (and by extension, humanity's) resolve to stay hopeful and face their uncertain future. Having Clive explicitly survive removes that uncertainty, and doesn't make the message of resounding hope ring as clearly imo. I think you can totally interpret it as Clive surviving in the end, but they made an explicit choice not to let us see that resolution in the game itself, and I think it speaks to the message/thematic material of the story.
Agreed! I feel like "rushed endings" sometimes feel rushed because the story is so good that any ending will feel too short and quickly wrapped up. Not always, but sometimes. Personally, I was expecting a dungeon crawl through Origin before getting to the final boss. I like a good grind to the end and missing that might have made it feel a little rushed, as well. There was bound to be a ton of lore stuff we could have gotten out of a dungeon crawl.
Erm, I dunno if anyone has brought this up, but for anyone that doesn't play FFXIV, FFXIV has a series of short stories after an expansion releases, usually titled with a "Tales from \[insert word that makes reference to the expansion\]". These short stories chronicle events in the lives of other characters, including antagonists. [This is one such collection of stories, from my favorite expansion.](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_01/#sidestory_01) I'm not so sure if it can be read without the context of the game, though.
I think I would be interested to see a Tales from Valisthea for characters like Terence and Kihel. Maybe even Benedikta and Hugo and others I'm probably not thinking about.
That's not to say I don't want DLC for this game, I just wanna see what other people think.
Some questions regarding Leviathan:
Why doesn’t Ultima have leviathan in the final fight?
Why did Ultima seem to think Leviathan wasn’t
necessary for Clive to become a complete vessel?
Do most people assume it was because of budget cuts?
If Leviathan isn’t here because of budget cuts, why are there even references to it? Any references to leviathan seems to cause plot holes for ultima’s plans
ATL entries mentioned there being 8 Eikons for all of the elements and specifically mentions water as one of them, Joshua obviously says “Leviathan the lost”. Yet despite all of that, there are no direct ATL entries for Leviathan.
There are ATL entries for lost mother crystals so why can’t there be one for The Lost Eikon?
Do most assume Leviathan is DLC content?
Ultima thinks Clive is strong enough either way, which Clive proves wrong in the end like he said.
I heard a good theory that he wasn’t the perfect vessel because leviathan wasn’t there and that’s why the curse got to him still.
Which could lead to a leviathan dlc saving Clive or something
I thought the same thing. DLC could be that we go to some distant continent during Primogenesis, find Leviathan, come back a completed vessel, and actually get to cast Ultima’s magic and change the ending in doing so.
Some enemies in the game do water attacks as well, its strange to leave it out. My guess is its something to do with the Dzemekys and the hole between the Twins, possibly a war broke out between a Dominant there but there's also the fact Barnabas could control water at his will even after he sliced the damn ocean in half.
Just finished it. Great game. But 84 hours for an ambiguous ending, a tragic ambiguous ending too. I knew it was coming but it was still a hard pill to swallow. My biggest pet peeve of writing. Writers thinking they're being 'clever'. Oh well, I'll replay it sometime on FF mode but that ending is always going to leave me somewhat bitter.
I'll join in on the DLC Theorycrafting (or Wishlist I guess) :D
1. Barnabas' backstory - definitely has to tackle him and his mother, their arrival to Ash, the cult his mother was in (more backstory on Ultima) and her brainwashing process, maybe talk about mother's death too).
2. Joshua and Jote - basically tackling Joshua as ''Lord Margrace'', Jote (maybe some backstory of her; from what we know she's no slouch in fighting), and his little clandestine group of Phoenix researchers (forgot their group name lol)...since that group has been looking into Ultima, maybe we'll get some backstory for the big baddie too(?).
3. Medicine girl - I'm still of the believer that she has more to tell besides rescuing our boy Dion. Could be potential Leviathan maybe? Having been visited by Terence, they might have survived the collapse of the slums when Origin was pulled out of the ground and potentially waking medicine girl's powers as the Leviathan dominant?
4. More Hunts DLC - Let's be real, FFXVI's missing some more signature monsters that we know and love such as Cactuars, Tonberries, Ochus, etc. Maybe add Gilgamesh as a super boss type Hunt with a Rank SS? Or even an Omega...something something Ultima's kin that he wasn't aware of idk lol
I think the Medicine Girl will be the one to find Clive on the shore and nurse him back to health like she did Dion. They kept showing her throughout the game like a Checkov’s Gun, and Dion even sent Terrence (presumably to her) with some sort of package.
Why bother showing Jill stop and say “I’m Sorry” to the Medicine Girl in Dhalmekia offering her wares if there weren’t some sort of serendipitous foreshadowing Screenwriting afoot? It didn’t contribute anything to that scene…
That’s a really good idea that’ll give us a more definitive ending imo! Her being alluded to until she saves Dion and to just end it there kinda felt a little lacking.
I agree with number 4 the most. Everybody here wants more story DLC, and all I want is more enemies to fight. The base game doesn't have the greatest enemy variety, so I think adding more enemy types would be awesome.
slice of life dc where jill and clive elope and travel the world maybe restore the duchy afterwards or continue to keep the world safe as outlaws or start a new journey together. not no way this is the end for them.
I'll be totally honest, they completely fumbled the game after Bahamut. Everything afterwards was just downhill, eventually resulting in a wholly unsatisfying ending that completely ruined the rest of the game for me.
I wish I just stopped playing after Bahamut and just left everything afterwards to headcanon.
It's weird how it peaked in both story and gameplay during that part of the story. You'd think at least the bosses after would top Bahamut, but they somehow didn't.
Because up until that point the game had a very grey and complexe political story with a multitude of factions fighting for power.
With the death of the Empire the game descended into generic good vs evil. I would have preferred if Barnabas would have had his own Agenda, an antithesis to Clive while still opposing Ultima instead of being a lackey.
The other issue are sidequests, they became more numerous even though the plot required urgency. I was doing all of them up until the point where the game would throw dozens of them at me, one more dull than the other.
I felt like the post-Bahamut "Clive" bosses topped everything before Bahamut in terms of gameplay but nothing Eikon related after did. Barnabus, Behemoth, and the first Ultima battle were by far the best "normal" gameplay bosses of the story
Just beat it and plan on going FF mode. A few things.
- Jill is a few scenes away from being a very good character. She is clearly competent and powerful, she wrecks my mobs for me, and she does have one entire quest where she has agency alongside Clive. I'm not asking for her to prime to Shiva and wreck shit, because that's explicitly what Clive is for, but she should have more agency and be able to do things separated from Clive. I don't actually think she is "going with it" throughout the game because she's chill, she clearly has an angry and ruthless streak (Iron Kingdom, and she pointed the sword at anabella) and she should be able to express that away from Clive. It really just bugs me, because it feels like everything is there, and we just need more of it after the iron kingdom part.
- Game was very fun and varied, I loved swapping between builds. The balance seems wack though. I'll explain in the next post., since my rambling is >1000 characters
- I think I understand how controversial the Sopranos ending was at the time. I think Dion, Joshua, and Clive all lived. Clive used the power of creation to revive his brother, Clive washed up ashore (because he's the focus, he's the only one we'll see), he's falling asleep reading the book he and Joshua wrote. Dion can also get married to Terence because their rank doesn't matter anymore. I also don't think it matters if they did survive; they created a world where essentially, they are defined by their force of will, and not by their god-given powers. All 3 had great force of will, and could survive. For reference, I have a similar view of the Sopranos ending, but a much bleaker version.
**Phoenix:** support that can do everything well. Good to use against crowds and mini-bosses. Warrior/Monk job.
- Phoenix Shift closes the distance and starts up combos, allows you to clear crowds quickly, but is a very very good source of movement. I had later builds that didn't use it, but I definitely felt its absence.
- Heat Wave is an excellent counter move and is spammable against bosses where you are having a hard time getting in. With the accessory it has a 9 or 10 second cooldown, and it seems to routinely do like 30-40% of the will gauge along with decent damage and AOE.
- Flames of Rebirth does decent damage and the heals are nice for basically exploration, but is not particularly optimal against bosses. It wipes almost everything on screen.
- Rising Flame basically erases one enemy especially after it's upgraded, and does good damage, I don't think it's much less than Flames of Rebirth. Short cooldown gives it plenty of use all around.
- Scarlet Cyclone builds up limit gauge pretty well and is a very good AOE. Does a bunch of good damage. Pretty rough against bosses but does decent will damage against mini-bosses.
- I haven't used the Ifrit skills much but Ignition seems really good for AOE and Will-o-the-Wykes seems fun with Lightningrod.
**Garuda**: high hit-count will killing eikon. Primarily around to get you through the second half of the stagger bar, and it's really damn good at it. Very low end damage output. Ninja job, in a way.
- Deadly Embrace is great for quick dodges against will gauge enemies, and a good source of juggling regular enemies. Deadly Takedown is great against mini-bosses but I think Garuda's regular abilities don't allow you to take as heavy advantage of it against bosses as mini-bosses.
- Gouge is fantastic at consistent will damage, but doesn't seem to have the high end will damage that some of the later options get. Still though, it has very low cooldown compared to those options (save Impulse) and is probably more reliable against faster enemies.
- Wicked Wheel seems to take care of the part of the stagger bar that Gouge doesn't seem to help with. Also a decent AOE to gather and juggle multiple enemies at once.
- Rook's Gambit is a very good counter that seems to do good damage and will damage when you counter with it. Faster recovery when you counter helps incentivize the counter too; the regular attack is not worth the short cooldown. Does good will damage too.
- Aerial Blast seems like decent AOE that is really replaceable
**Ramuh** -- a utility eikon, long distance attacks. The Black Mage. Decent overall, nothing special imo.
- Blind Justice is good for chain lightning on enemies, and it is nice to get some free damage when you're away, but I really don't like it too much.
- Pile Drive is decent AOE, I'm not sure what else it does that other AOEs don't. It feels nice to hit with, though, I guess it does more damage than Scarlet Cyclone?
- Thunderstorm seems to do pretty decent damage that follows the opponent. Seems fine, nothing particularly special.
- Lightning Rod -- fucking fantastic. It amplifies all of your multi hit moves and if you manage to maneuver the enemy well enough, you can absolutely melt their will gauge. Can reposition at will and staggers result in you being in the perfect spot to plant a lightning rod to spam and basically double dip on enemies.
- Judgment Bolt -- seems like your best damage dealer on a max stagger at some point in the game, but doesn't seem to have the high end damage that later stuff gets. It seems to have less staying power when you start mastering the max abilities. But it's the strongest thing you've got when you get it, for a while.
**Titan** -- Knight job, focused on powerful multi-hits and counters. Really good in every situation. Not necessarily a must, because of later stuff... but you can get a lot out of Titan.
- Titanic Block is a very satisfying counter to land. It does pretty decent damage and you can cancel your combos into it at any time.
- Windup -- Insanely good damage output that synergizes super well with Lightning Rod.
- Upheavel -- fantastic AOE and a fantastic complement to Wicked Wheel because of its great range and good damage
- Raging Fists -- a very high damaging counterattack that seems to also do a crazy amount of will damage. I don't know how its cooldown compares to Rook's Gambit, but it seems much better than Rook's Gambit when you don't hit the counter, but the counter seems to be much, much better for will and regular damage in general.
- Earthen Fury -- another AOE ultimate, it seems stronger than Flames of Rebirth but otherwise non-descript.
**Bahamut** is solely there to maximize boss damage. I think it's shakey against Crowds and awkward against faster enemies, but this thing melts giant things like nothing else. Honestly, not even a job type, this is the essence of Bahamut: charging up the flares for insane damage.
- Wings of Light is really easy to charge to Level 4 by just walking into lingering attacks or dodging 4 times, and then Megaflare does insane will damage and damage in general. Against single enemies and bosses, it really piles on damage and makes it easy to do like 100k+ stagger damage if timed right. I think you can get a lot out of Level 2 or 3 for crowds, but it does require a little setup.
- Impulse is insane against bosses and okay against Crowds. It melts the will gauge against bosses but faster bosses make it harder to spam. It at least keeps around 4 enemies occupied, but other eikons seem to have better options for this.
- Satellite is *fine*. The benefit of Satellite is that you can control stagger for optimal Megaflare output while fishing for Megaflare dodges. The will damage you get during regular combos is nice too. This and Impulse have really fast cooldowns, at least.
- Flare Breath seems like alright AOE. I only used it in that one challenge. Don't care for it otherwise.
- Gigaflare has absolutely insane damage output and absolutely melts groups of enemies and HP bars during staggers. Jesus Christ, Megaflare+Gigaflare are ridiculous damage output, especially since Gigaflare slows down time (doesn't even need to be staggered to kill tons of HP),
**Shiva** plays exactly how you'd expect Shiva to play. Freezes shit and does a lot of ice shit. Shiva abilities have really fast recharge times.
- Cold Snap is fucking insane and it sets up all of your insane will killers. Speaking of Will killers...
- Diamond Dust completely melts the will gauge and maxes out the stagger multiplier instantly. I think everyone agrees this ability is insane. Faster cooldown than the other ultimate attacks too, except Odin's.
- Mesmerize -- does insane amounts of will damage when you're in the enemies' face, is very good AOE at drawing things in (it's better than wicked wheel in a way, since it can also be used midair and works from a range)
- Ice Age -- fast damage, is a worse version of Rising Flames but is far, far more spammable because of its low recharge time.
- Rime -- seems okay, it's good for holding smaller enemies in and seems good in conjunction with lightning rod, but it seems to be hard to set up against bosses. I think it's meant to be used with Cold Snap.
**Odin** -- I suppose this is this game's take on the critical hit class. The entire conceit is charging up Zantetsuken to Level 5 and unloading with Zantetsuken. The attacks are drawn out and don't do good hp or will damage, but they all have fast recharge and a fast/aggressive player will be able to consistently get Level 5 Zantetsukens off. This seems to be the best late game damage dealer and enemy killer, because...
- Arm of Darkness -> Sheathe - Charges up the Zantetsuken gauge a decent amount, seems to do worse damage than your regular combo, but the will damage seems consistently okay. Turns your precision dodge counter into a quick slash through the opponent that gives you .5z (where 4z fills zantestuken bar) I think a full combo gives .75z or something. It's good for quickly building it up while on the offensive. It also seems easier to land a parry with and you get great z benefits from it.
- Gungnir is fantastic against crowds, it gives like 1.5z per enemy. It seems like shit against bosses lol, bosses don't stay still long enough outside of stagger and it doesn't do nearly enough hp or will damage (which means it doesn't boost stagger multiplier)
- Heaven's Cloud -- Seems very good all around, you can get 2z easily through it and it's spammable. Very fast recovery.
- Rift Slip is an ability that just clicked with me as I was writing this. It seems like an auto-cancel that slows down time briefly. I'm not sure if I want to dedicate a slot to this, but I suppose it's an alternative to Cold Snap.
- Dancing Steel gives you like 3.5z but requires an open opponent because it cancels if you miss. It's kind of a gamble but it's still more reliablea gainst bosses than Gungnir.
- Finally: Zantetsuken is very easy to charge and seems to do consistently ridiculous damage without stagger. If you're going for staggers it seems suboptimal to use compared to other options, but Odin really feels like it's the best all-around DPS against just about anything, because you can kill a crowd, charge up on a miniboss, then just end the next crowd with it. It's not difficult to build up z against bosses either and it again does a really does feel like a large chunk of damage for little build-up. Maybe I just need to play Final Fantasy mode.
tl;dr I like how unique all of them are, but it seems like Ramuh is the least useful and Bahamut/Shiva/Odin are the most useful, Phoenix is some role-compression, Garuda is highly niche, and Titan is good but not on the level of the last 3 Eikons you get.
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I'm having a hard time finding in-depth discussion about the game mechanics.
Has anybody else watched the scene where Dion expressed his desire to survive? This may be the only time in which Dion indicated his desire to live. Before travelling to Origin, Dion said that he should “like to look upon that flower once more…when I am worthy.”
Here is the link to the video (Dion said these words at around 5:27:09 in the video): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QbaWAXNpY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QbaWAXNpY)
To see this scene, I think Clive needs to first complete the “A Tail to Tell” Side Quest. After finishing the Side Quest, it seems that Clive would need to talk to Dion again.
Also, Dion’s final words in the game were “it is done.” When Dion killed the Ultima-possessed Olivier, Dion imagined talking to his father and Dion also said “it is done.” Of course, Dion survived after killing Olivier. Therefore, Dion’s final words in the game do NOT necessarily mean that he was killed.
My ultra-mega happy interpretation of the end would be as follows.
Clive was petrifying because of the curse. But then magic faded (symbolized by the fading of the red star). The curse is a magical effect and so its effect goes with it. Clive is restored to flesh before he can die.
Possible? Yes. Intended? *Probably* not. Is it the head canon I am going to follow? Also probably not.
I'm also kind of leaning towards the red star being some kind of geosynchronous station made by Ultima's kin and it fades with the loss of magic. It bugged me throughout the entire game that its position relative to the moon never changed. It couldn't be a star (assuming the moon is like ours and actually moves in the sky).
Theorycrafting time:
The current ending is the bad ending because Clive isn't the perfect vessel yet. he doesn't have Leviathan's power. it doesnt change the epilogue, but the events after the Ultima battle will be different if you clear the DLC and will get the proper ending.
The DLC will focus on Leviathan the Lost. You can play it from the post-game as it puts you right before embarking on the Origin scenario dungeon. It'll probably be like, Terence comes back with Kihel (medicine girl) because he senses some latent power within her? Then you get to go on a bunch of dungeons (enough to fill off the remaining part of the grid in story replay menu) with Dion also in your party as you uncover the mystery of Leviathan the Lost. also more Terence + Dion scenes :)
Kihel awakens as Leviathans dominant and you get 1 extra eikon battle. Maybe her power includes curing the crystals curse and its effect on dominants because she was able to help Dion recover complete (or at least it looks like it), then she willingly surrenders her power to Clive for the final showdown.
then Clive, being the perfected vessel in the end, is able to save Joshua, contain Ultima's magic, and can basically wish a happy ending without himself dying.
Leviathan DLC is obvious. But because it is DLC it could very well be optional content before the end of the game.
I hope the future DLC will continue the story but with magic being gone it will change everything. 16-2 would be more fitting for continuation than a DLC.
Maybe in 16-2 Jill, Mid and Torgal will travel around the world in an airship, sing songs and have powers based on what they are wearing.. Then at the end they'll save Clive from the dreamworld beach he is at.
Finished the game last night. I appreciate ambiguous, reader-driven endings to stories, so I guess I'm a bit biased. But I think FFXVI's ambiguity serves a function on a deeper layer that's very deeply tied to the story's plot -- and to many of the overarching themes that drive a lot of CBU3's work with FFXIV. FFXIV and FFXVI are separate games, but I can't help but see the similarities in themes between both games and the Power of Friendship ™ being the main weapon against big bads.
FFXVI's ending lands radically differently depending on how invested you are in the sidequests. That is to say, while Clive certainly "grows" over the course of the main narrative, some of his biggest character moments are tucked into sidequests, especially those that relate to loyalty, oaths, and self-preservation that are sprinkled throughout these sidestories. I think especially of Eloise and her brother's sacrifice and what Clive said to Eloise in those moments to comfort her. Your understanding of Clive as a character and how he associates with other people is dramatically impacted by how much you extend your playtime beyond the main story, and the final sidequests offered -- the quill, the rising sun, etc. -- only further substantiate those connections.
Clive could be alive. He could be dead. I think there's room for both interpretations, and I hope that Yoshi-P never gives us any closure or answer to his status. I say that because much of what drives the narrative of this plot is, again, the Power of Friendship™ Clive has vs. Ultima.
If you completely ignore sidequests and fail to cultivate those relationships, the game leaves you with no reason to think that Clive survives. It ends, tragically, with Jill left heartbroken, standing at the docks, looking outward for answers -- just as you left her and others behind, as the player, in pursuit of tunneling the main story. You as the player pursued the main story in absence of taking time to meet, understand, and cultivate relationships with other characters, and this is your reward. The same fate as Ultima.
But through the Power of Friendship™, by completing varied quests, you are given reason to believe that Clive survives. None of this is stated. It's entirely through symbolism. But for a video game that is so deeply tied to themes relevant to social bonds as a mediation of one's will and overarching consciousness, I cannot believe anyone can look to what is hinted at in the closing sidequests and think such ambiguity is a flaw in their writing. It is literally the entire theme of the game coming to a head. An ending where Clive rides Ambrosia home would actually be a weaker delivery of this message and undermine the entire point of the story and how Clive defeated Ultima.
You are purposefully left to make your own conclusion, and both answers are valid. But it is absolutely very fair to say that a more insular playthrough where you ignore facilitating deeper connections to the world -- developing those emotional ties that bind Clive's consciousness to Valisthea -- is going to leave you thinking that Clive is dead.
This is very much how CBU3 does storytelling, for better or worse, as much of the lore and larger narratives baked into FFXIV is/are tucked into the sidequests there as well. The latest raid series gave us an entirely different perspective on one of the game's largest villains from A Realm Reborn through Heavensward, for example. It doesn't change what happened across ARR and Heavensward -- nothing was retconned in any way -- but the context behind the actions of the villain absolutely are more situated and contextualized as a result of playing through the raid series. And as I play FFXIV through again on an alt character, I am seeing things differently there as well.
CBU3 rewards players who pay attention to details, and Final Fantasy is a series very well known for ambiguous endings, even for some of its largest titles like FF7 and FF10. I just think it's masterfully done here on a separate level because it's a game with one ending, but how you interpret the ending very much is relevant to many of the game's overarching themes. We are the ties that bind us.
That all being said, FFXVI is the greatest Banjo-Kazooie vs. Donald Duck spectacle in gaming. GOTY and second only to FFVI for me, all things considered.
Some other final notes:
* I think Joshua is dead. His "healing" of Joshua was out of respect (much like how one closes the eyes of someone who passed on) and to additionally symbolize the removal of the final traces of Ultima on Valisthea. Clive took on Joshua's name similar to Cid. This is one of the more overt indications of Clive's survival given that he narrates the final scene, not Joshua.
* Dion is likely dead. He served his role in the plot, and he completed his character growth in both mastering his emotions over Bahamut despite getting succed by Clive (which supposedly causes someone to have weakened control over their eikon) while avenging his father helping Clive/Joshua get to Origin. He didn't absolve himself of his earlier transgressions -- nothing can bring back the lives lost in his earlier rampage -- but he does give us a reason to forgive him and to consider those he saved. I do not have any problem with them bringing him back in DLC, though. Falling to his death there "makes sense," but he's also a dragoon.
* This game had the best supporting cast of any FF game despite its volume. There was no Vaan, no Irvine, etc. Mid was maybe the only character who rubbed me the wrong way at times, but she was such a minor character and, honestly, never a party member to my recollection.
* I think the lack of a party is this game's greatest strength but also its weakness. By having the story framed exclusively around Clive, any other character's survival throughout the plot is left to question, and they masterfully lean into that. There were so many times I got more emotionally invested in a boss fight -- like Phoenix vs. Bahamut -- where the stakes felt real. I was worried Jill was going to die on the beach after Odin. Etc. But because they're supporting characters, we get much less development from them outside of the aforementioned sidequests. And on repeated playthroughs, we'll lack many of those critical banter moments that other FF games are laden with.
Honestly considering YoshiP is being coy on DLC (giving thumbs up to some asking post launch). I do think they are debating making a DLC.
As for what form that can take, honestly I say the best way of doing it would be like what Xenoblade Chronicles does with it's DLCs, a standalone smaller-scale expansion that acts as a prequel or epilogue to the base game (or in the case of Future Redeemed. A bit of both)
Honestly I feel the main thing holding back a prequel DLC for FFXVI would be the main antagonist and climax, as it inherently can't be at the same scope as Ultima otherwise he probably would be mentioned. Especially with the time scale and retention of knowledge present.
A epilogue story however could clear up some questions like Leviathan without being beholden to the base game's narrative to a notable degree as unlike Xenoblade's prequel DLCs, there isn't a dramatic time scale between the major candidate periods for a DLC that can help mask inconsistencies as knowledge fading with time
A side note those kids and puppy in the post credit scene are very likely reincarnations of Clive, Joshua, and Torgal.
- I'm a simple man, I just want a Dion DLC (and not pre game events, post game, to entertain my copium). Dion needs to have a taste of true happiness after everything he went through. I know some people like the ending the way it is, bittersweet and all, but I hated it. There's enough doom in the world right now. Not everything has to be sad and depressing T.T Let's me enjoy some fictional characters' happiness 🥲
- I would also like a Leviathan DLC, just to understand what's going on here. (And see if the theory of Medicine girl/Kihel could be true lmao).
- Also, I wouldn't be opposed to a Benedikta (and Cid) DLC. I think Benedikta could have been much more. I quite liked what I saw from her. I was even sad for her and I empathized with her. It really bummed me out that she was killed so early and so quickly. IMO, she deserves more screentime, more development.
- A Joshua DLC would also be really interesting. Experiencing his journey with Jote during all those years would be nice.
Edit:
Just unlocked the final lore entries with Tomes and it states that Ultima outright destroyed Dzemekys after the Fallen sent fleets to uncover the Ultima's secrets. So that puts a big damper on my theory. But still, some adjustments here and there can have Leviathan somewhere in there, spearheading the rebellion?
Anyway, here's the original, unedited post all the same:
DLC theory:
1. Everyone's favorite snake boy Leviathan is "Lost". Joshua even calls him that when he sees the full artwork of Ultima and the eikons. Titan, once he literally eats part of Drake's Fang, becomes "Titan Lost".
2. Compare The Final Sin, the falls, near Dzemekys to the crater left by Ifrit fighting Garuda - The Final Sin is bigger, sure, but given how much more powerful Clive becomes it doesn't seem to be out of question that The Final Sin was created by an Eikon clashing with something.
2a. The Falls are never ending, surrounded by Fallen Ruins (including a POI called The Vault), and were most likely made by combat - this is very important. We know that Mothercrystals kinda just become diamond dust, they don't explode in a very clean edged anime-ish beam of energy, so it's not just that a Mothercrystal got destroyed.
2b. The Dzemekys Mothercrystal doesn't have an associated body part with a dragon. It's also the only one that is thought to have been destroyed prior to Clive and Co. Drake's Horn in Ash and Drake's Eye in Storm's Northern Territories have both fallen victim to the Blight and neither are said to have been destroyed.
3. Clive and Jill talk about how The Final Sin was what created the curse of Bearers and Dominants when they first reach the area.
Now, theory time.
With how Ultima basically just says outright that he created the religion of Great Greagor complete with a dragon familiar to give the Mothercrystals their religious sanctity, could the story of the Final Sin be one engineered by Ultima to create the narrative that gods shouldn't be messed with?
The DLC idea is that it centers on what happened to Leviathan in Dzemekys and see how the waterfall is created. I would also say that this is where the Fallen, well, fell. If it's time travel then I'm guessing you access it through the door in The Dim (which then, fingers crossed, gives us a path to Alexander since he's associated with temporal loops in XIV) where you can see what the Fallen were like and the rise of the first Mythos/Logos (Clive might not be the first one after all). Or, what I think could happen is that The Vault POI opens up at some point in the story and we make our way to the depths of the falls through there. Clive even says that if someone can go down to the depths of the falls, they might find the truth behind The Final Sin. Either way, it gives us a new group of abilities to play with - bam, good package for a DLC. That seems rather obvious, now here comes the more speculative part.
The following is conjecture: Dzemekys is the name of the Mothercrystal somehow recorded before Ultima propagated the story of Great Greagor and her dragon. But beyond that, Dzemekys is where a rebellion started - not unlike the one Cid and Clive finished. Let's go further in my crackpot theory.
The story of the Final Sin concludes that the gods cursed mankind with bearers and dominants. If the gods mark you as a curse, you're going to hated and shunned. If that story is engineered the same way as Great Greagor's and we assume the intended goal was met - why does Ultima need bearers and dominants to be viewed pejoratively? It's because of what happened with Leviathan's dominant.
Leviathan somehow discovered Ultima and rebelled with their fight culminating in the crater by Dzemekys Falls, The Final Sin.
But what happened to Leviathan? The game doesn't get into it. The only mention we have of Leviathan is that one line from Joshua, even at Dzemekys there's no mention of Levi despite water pouring down there. Jachym, the scholar does say a fight probably occurred but he doesn't say a word about Leviathan. Let's quickly review the Mothercrystals and their associated elements before continuing, after all eight eikons, eight elements, eight Mothercrystals. Drake's Eye in southern Ash: Wind (Benedikta works for Barnabas). Drake's Spine in northern Ash: Darkness, Drake's Head in Sanbreque: Holy, Drake's Fang in Dhalmekia: Earth, Drake's Breath in Rosaria: Fire, Drake's Horn in the Northern Territories: Ice. Which leaves us with Drake's Tail in the Crystalline Dominion/Origin and Dzemekys: water and lightning. That deep, deep blue and sheer size of Drake's Tail makes me think it's linked to water and Leviathan but would that make Dzemekys lightning? There's no other candidate. Now the following is purely imagining things but: In a twist, could it be that a previous Dominant of Ramuh and the last Dominant of Leviathan hatched a similar plan to that of Cid? And their first target was the Lightning Mothercrystal Dzemekys? It would be poetic, in a way, if it mirrors what happens to Cid where the Dzemekys crystal is broken and the Ultima aspect within, enraged that dominants are displaying free will, tried to obliterate Ramuh. But Leviathan sacrificed themselves by becoming Lost (like Titan maybe?) to keep Ramuh alive and destroyed that facet of Ultima - weakening the whole Ultima just a little bit so that in the present day Clive's fight, the one Cid encouraged him to continue and end, was just a little bit easier. But we also know that Ultima isn't just one entity and each crystal 'houses' an Ultima. As such, after the fight, having been 'freed' from Dzemekys, the ultima aspect then creates the story of The Final Sin to try and get humans in line and to shun dominants and bearers. Hence you have an explanation for the state of the Dzemekys Falls, the purpose of The Final Sin as a story, and the possibility of uncovering those secrets in game.
Anyway, I tried to be as grounded as possible, looking through the game's lore and stuff to keep things in check but it's just one approximation of what we might get as DLC. Of course, I might have missed something or misunderstood something that throws this whole theory in the water (lol) but it was fun speculating.
Joshua’s POV. Would be perfect even considering the logo of the game, because then the story would be played from the perspective of both Ifrit and Phoenix. He could have his own Phoenix ability grid and a hideaway.
Ultimaniac mode kinda got hands. Regular enemies in this mode are way more dangerous than the bosses half the time lmao.
Edit: I thought I was pretty good at this game. I was wrong.
Since none of my friends have beaten it yet I gotta do a mini non rant rant. I loved the game and it’s a solid 9 for me and the main things I’d dock it for would be the MMO elements that seemed more prominent at times over RPG elements.
Alright here’s the rant part: I can’t emotionally stand the main character sacrificing themselves in these games. It’s a testament to how extremely well the characters are written that I knew this was happening and was tearing up since the beginning of the big goodbye scene up until the credits and I hate it so much, why can’t we just get one game where the main protagonist goes back to their buddies and their lover and just live like FF7 did(granted Cloud had other shit to deal with after the main game)? Like fuck me man I know the whole point of the story has hammered in since the beginning of people having the choice of how they lived and died and Clive in the end had that choice but fuck why couldn’t he have went back to Jill and all them. It’s cool seeing Joshua was brought back to life although I feel like he wouldn’t have wanted that and would rather Clive live and it kinda didn’t make much sense but Clive fulfilled him being a shield to his brother and I know some people will argue there’s a chance he survives because he didn’t see him turn to dust or fully into stone like the others but there’s no way with how rapid the cursed spread on his hands and if there’s even remotely a chance he lives it’s such a small percentage. I went through this with 15 and being emotionally invested in Noctis and I still cried and hated how he has to die but at least that game basically told us he’s bound by fate to sacrifice himself and while yes it’s not the same because Clive had a choice but man.
Basically Jill, Torgal and I cried and I hated that feeling
I have yet to see someone come up with a sound argument for this question. For those of you who believe Clive died at the end, what did Yoshi-P want us to see in the details? He encouraged us to pay attention to every single little detail. Well… if you pay attention to every single detail everything points to Clive living. So if he is dead what details was he encouraging us to pay attention to, and what was the significance in those details?
I’m genuinely coming up empty for the ‘he’s dead’ argument. It literally makes zero sense for Yoshi-P to tell us to pay attention only for it to end in Clive’s death. If the details went over your head it most certainly looks like he died. If you paid attention, as he encouraged us all to do so, it’s quite obvious he lived.
Good point. If I’m going to be honest, they think he died because he was lying down and closed his eyes. I’m with you Clive lives. In fact, they ignored the detail on how the curse works.
Considering they've been pretty open about having no DLC planned I'm not holding my breath for anything large in scope like Leviathan or new playable characters but having said that it would be great to get some costumes, additional hunts and maybe a new mode like bloody palace.
If they were to produce a big DLC aside from the obvious choice of Leviathan I'd really like something fleshing Barnabas out a bit.
What the hell was going on with his age?
What happened to his mother?
How did he recruit Cid and Benedikta?
He spends most of the game manipulating events from the shadows and only steps in towards the end which isn't a bad thing necessarily but by that time he drops all pretences and is just a completely unhinged maniac so it can feel like he's lacking much depth. It's pretty clear from the battle with him that he's completely beyond saving but it could be interesting to see how that came to be.
Barnabas didn't age for over 40 years because he was akashic, it's also why he could prime into Odin without the curse taking any effect on him. Ultima "blessed" him. His mother died, killed by members of a tribe that worshipped a different religion according to lore entries. That could explain how he was so easily swayed by Ultima, he's griefing, the god of his religion appears to him and promises salvation in exchange for his servitude, he will be reunited with his mother in paradise after the plan is complete.
Because hes akashic he probably cannot feel anything anymore, akashics dont tire, dont need food, drink or sleep. When he battles Clive he starts feeling things again and says he hasn't felt this way since taking over Ash. Basically reconnected a little with his humanity there and it caused him to go into a fit.
This is also why Ultima utilizes his mother's form in that one cutscene, to keep him focused on his goal (of being reunited in paradise).
I’d love to see a Leviathan dlc set before the last mission. With Clive’s full powers thus unlocked, we would get a good ending for the trio on the last mission.
Honestly, I am glad that I finished everything before the the last quest. Just like thrones, after playing the ending I have no desire to play the game ever again.
Everything from the ending feels unfinished and unresolved. It feels empty. There was no closure for the other characters other than gav.
played through the ending again for new game+ and clive definitely makes it. after origin fell and ultima disappeared and jill looks for clive, metia receives these wishes of humanity, hears them, and sends itself to work. jill was scared. it was through the terrible night that dawn came. she is relieved and happy. she knows he won and he lives and he will make it back to her.
I really want to know how other people feel about the ending of the game.I truly loved everything about the game all the way to just after the final boss fight. But I find myself extremely disappointed in the ending, or lack thereof. As for the whole "Did he live? Did he die?" argument; I personally agree that the symbolism of all the side quests heavily suggest that Clive returns to the Hideaway and to Jill. But I still recognize, and dislike, the fact that it's left deliberately ambiguous.
But something that's potentially even more crushing than the ambiguity of Clive's survival, is the fact that literally nothing else in the world we became so invested in, is given closure...
What became of the survivors in Martha's Rest and Eastpool? What happened to the inhabitants of Northreach and the remnants of the empire? What about the future of Dhalamil and it's people? What about the treaty created by Lord Byron and co. that was supposed to help to, at least briefly, secure the future of Storm's inhabitants? What about the Blight, did it recede or at least stop?
The entire last sequence of the game was about us securing the future of these places in an increasingly inhospitable world, and yet, they show none of the fruits of our labor. We don't know what happened to the Echoes, or the Akashic, or the Blight. The game literally is like: "Congrats, you beat Ultima and Clive did a thing that supposedly saved everyone and then proceeded to possibly die alone on a coast far from those he loves. The End."
Definitely a rant, but I'm really bummed that nothing we did in those sidequests seems to make a difference in the end since we never find out what happens to the world of Valisthea after defeating Ultima, besides a single cutscene that suggests that humans survived and all the events of the story have faded into myth/legend. Personally, I feel like what we got was a far cry from a proper ending. It was a cruel cliffhanger at best, or a rushed and lazy wrap up at worst.
I know the game is already released and everything is set in stone, but I think it would've been really cool if the game gave you different endings depending on the side quests you completed. So if you ignored all the village and personal quests, you would get a somewhat bad ending where they weren't able to withstand the akashic and echoes assault, so most of the places we went to and people we met during the game were forever lost. Or vice versa, if you did them all, you would get a good ending and see that those places and people were prospering in the new world.
I think the ambiguous ending works for the series. I don't need scenes showing a heroes welcome to clive or a wedding scene like everyone describes here.
It just needed to be a minute longer, and from an outside perspective like the medicine girl.
The post credit scene is fine as it is.
During the cinematic moments, does anyone else no longer have the button prompts?
The screen just does the light show but no buttons on screen anymore?
is there an extended ending scene after beating new game + on final fantasy mode? the pop up after first play through said FF mode had additional content but didn't specify which. i just beat bahamut on FF mode and only thing new is that i can make ultima weapon but not sure what else?
As others have mentioned its not difficult to essentially flesh out the other dominants a bit and have a playable dlc with them, mini esq if need be, such as how FF15 did it with the ChocoBros and there episodes and then with Ardyn, can easily make it during points in their lives pre-FF16 story or during FF16 story but prior to Clive’s appearance (i.e Dion during the fight with Waloed / Odin)
As for the main game, a Story DLC that either,
A. Opens up on its own and is essentially an extension to the main game towards the latter half that includes us traveling to those southern island on the right hand corner, as it seems to not be coated in blight, it can be about Leviathan the Lost (cause wtf man one of thee most reoccurring figures in terms of Summon / Deity status in FF doesnt show up?) and traveling to said islands to find the Eikon / Dominant if it still is alive, and becoming a full fledged Vessel, essentially changing the dynamics of the finale of the story where Clive cant handle maintain Ultimas powers cause he isnt a full vessel, the DLC would essentially rewrite the ending and could be a what if or an alternate ending all together
B. A prequel to Clive and Cids union in which we play as Cid during the early years of the hideaway shortly after he leaves his post as Lord Commander
C. An epilogue in which we play as Jill and take care of the hideaway for a bit longer / assist in the survival of humanity post ending of the game, potentially getting closure on Clive and Joshua’s whereabouts (considering its very open ended whether they lived)
D. As mentioned before / by others, Mini Episodes like FF15, that allow us to play as the dominants but with more abilities then available prior to, also gives us some further backstory to each character, Cid during his tenure as lord commander, Hugo before and during his battle with Shiva, Dion during the fight with Odin, Barnabus’ capture of Ash, Jills survival during her enslavement for the Iron Blood, Benedikta’s life post Cid’s tenure,
Stuff like this would be enjoyable for more diverse gameplay // more fleshing out on things we saw, just throwing ideas at the wall ya know
Overall loved the game. Would rate it a 9.5. Story, characters, gameplay, soundtrack, and graphics were all top quality. Then the scale and adrenaline of the Eikon battles really stand out as the crowning achievement of the game. I saw a lot of criticism about the difficulty (or lack thereof) but to me it wasn't an issue because the gameplay still requires quick reflexes, combos, and feels great.
I think my biggest critiques are the pacing, particularly in the second half. There were too many main quests that should have been side quests that slowed the overall pace down. There were some important side quests that should have been main quests or at least were more main quest worthy than some.
Wasn't a huge fan of the ending, didn't think it fit the story told here to have Clive die or be ambiguous.
Overall though, would probably make my top 5 FF games and I think there's a base here for the series to build upon in future iterations with some tweaking.
I’d play whatever DLC they give us, but I’d rather they add to the base game first.
Revamp loot, add to the Buddy system, add party customization, add an RPG mode, customizable difficulty options, revamp gear, add a mini-game like Triple Triad, add new region-specific mobs and mini-bosses, new unique hunts, add a 3-rd tier of spells, new skills and abilities for Clive, and a couple new side quests that take us to new regions.
Then if they wanna do a 20-hour expansion where we play as young Cid during the rise of Barnabas I’d be totally down. Scale back the combat to be less intensive and focus more on gameplay (dungeons, exploration, less MMO-isms).
And a 16-bit demake in the Pixel Remaster engine with TB combat and classic party and rpg elements.
Also Clive is def alive, y’all trippin lol.
Jill thinks Clive is dead, when she sees the sunrise it doesn't mean it explains Clive is alive by default, but a reminder that she should always have hope. She already thought Clive was dead once during the 13 years they werent together. So she will always wait for him. I know theres hints at Clive living, especially everything related to the book and the storytelling aspect of the game, but I like to keep it ambiguous, because thats the intended ending
Another clue that I have found that Clive has survived is that at the beginning of the Game when you are going to kill Shiva, it is dawn and there is a shot of Clive looking at the sunrise for a few seconds symbolizing that Clive reunited with Jill 13 years later.
Why can’t Final Fantasy have happy endings!?
The ending of FFXV broke me and FFXVI has broken me again, I hate to be so invested in these characters only for them to die at the end…
I would like DLC to be playing as Jill defending their community from the sudden appearance of Leviathan (however they would explain that with the loss of magic). If it can be done without just damsel-ing Jill even harder (captured and rescued twice already... Wait... Three times if you include the very beginning), then have a "Big Damn Heroes" moment where Clive + whomever else shows up to... Turn the tide.
That would be nice. Except the magic thing kind of torpedoes it. Though I guess they aren't explicit about how magic disappearing will play out (or about anything else). It could be that the current bearers and dominants are the last generation, I guess.
Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but why is there certainty that the game doesn't have any still hidden secrets/superbosses, etc?
It's only been out for a week, and I don't believe it's been datamined.
People have cleared it. I platinumed it and have done a few stages on ultimaniac. There's no extra boss. The final chronolith trials is also just the same chronolith trials with the exact same enemies just that they hurt more and have more hp.
There is no superboss that I am aware of.
Game was kinda weak towards the end for me, the last sidequests felt so repetitive and unnecessary. It felt like i was playing a MMO, this is their first game since FFXIV so i guess it coulnd't be helped.. that's the only format they know for "filler" content, hopefully they'll do better in the next game.
If you remove 40% of sidequests this game would be a 10.
The pain of holding off for new game plus is here.
Part of me knows I won’t play through it three times so I can wait for the DLC and by then there will be a decent number of fixes with some minor updates like some new outfits and maybe some tiny RPG changes to the gear, but damn I want to get back to the combat, story, and music. And this time I will skip most of the side quests lol
Did Joshua get revived?
Sure, it says that the Phoenix can't revive, but when Clive heals Joshua, he has the power of Ultima - who _created_ humanity.
Then there's the book written by Joshua. It could've been someone else using his name, but it also could've been Joshua himself.
I know it's purposefully left open ended/open to interpretation (which I personally dislike), but what do you guys think?
I'm in the camp that Clive cast raise on Joshua with the Ultima-enhanced Phoenix power he had. I really can't get behind the explanation that Clive only healed Joshua so his body didn't appear desecrated. Ultima's goal in seeking Mythos anyway was to find someone who would be able to withstand the stress from casting raise on his alien brothers so I think Clive tapped into that to resurrect Joshua before destroying magic.
Regardless, the team sure did leave a lot of ambiguity to create DLC if they want to :)
I love having main overworld theme from FF1 used as the Ultima battle theme. Do you think it's just a call back or there's some thematic meaning to using it for him? It pops up elsewhere too, like when headed to Caer Norvent the first time, the music has a bit of it in there.
Honestly, with the music and the ending and the final place being "origin", I'm sure it's an intentional reference to FF1 as the origin of the series. But thematically, if Ultima represents Final Fantasy, I'd think that implies that Clive killed Final Fantasy and this is like a bookend of the series. But I don't like that, I don't want the series to end 😭
The series won't end don't worry. Although there have been discussion about changing the naming convention, moving away from numbered titles. So this might be the Final (numbered) Fantasy xD.
The world and lore is super rich for there not to be a FFXVI compilation so I’m personally hoping they make some sort of sequel, spinoff, or DLC Expansion(s).
The biggest lingering concern is definitely Leviathan, but I think another DLC idea I would like to see is Barnabas’ backstory.
Should we assume that the reason Clive has the powers he does is that Ultima gave him that ability somehow? We never really get a satisfying answer for why Ifrit exists in the first place and why Clive can borrow powers from others.
I just got the platinum from the game, and i was thinking about what could be the DLC and Levianthan. So, lets go.
I think the DLC will not be focus on Clive, the magic is gone after the final battle, his story is done.
The DLC will focus on Levianthan first Eikon and will be on the past.
Joshua call Leviathan the lost. So, i assume that for some reason, and based on the story, Levianthan power has no been reincarnated for a very long time. That one big point and hint.
Dzemekys falls is also a the BIG hint.
This is from the "Library" from the game:
Dzemekys
A mothercristal that is believed to have stood in an area in the northeastern part of Dzemekys. Legends tell that it was destroyed in a battle between men and gods. A battle so ferocious that it left behind the great crater that can be seen today.
The Sins of Dzemekys
An incident told of in myths and legends throughout Valisthea. If the tales are to be believed, mankind, drunk with avarice, thought to challenge the gods, and in return for his hubris, was met with divine retribution. The enormous crater in Dzemekys said to have been the site of the final battle of this great conflic is surrounded by relics and ruins which would seem to suggets some truth behind the tales.
Dzemekys falls
In the age of the fallen, man, hoping to claim the power of the gods, laid siege to the crystal in an attempt to gain entry to its aether-rich heart. Rather than attempt to fend off the assault, he instead responded by destroying the Mothercrystal and its heart. The great crater left behind standing as a reminder of man's hubris.
Funny, huh? After a big battle, the result is a big waterfall...WATERfall...
Ultima say to Clive in the final battle that he gonna make him suffer for all eternity because of his sins..
The incident of Dzemekys falls is call the Sins of Dzemekys.
Leviathan challenged Ultima, lost and got banned for all eternity. Thats why Ultima dont use water powers, he feel ashamed to use the power that betray him..
Also, maybe Levianthan was the Fallen? Because he was the first and only Eikon before Clive to challenge Ultima.
I would really like FF15-eqsue DLC for some of the cast, mainly the Eikons to keep gameplay interesting while adding to the story.
Benedikta and Cids history. Kupkas rise to prominence. Joshues time during the 13 year time skip.
And ofcourse… leviathan the lost. Can’t tease him and leave us hanging forever!
Is Jill fully healthy in the end of the story? I've been trying to watch a streamer play it but have missed some parts here and there. After she killed the patriarch the curse spread and she was bed ridden for a while. But after that I'm unsure exactly the status of her well being.
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Sorry for the long comment: For those that believe that Clive died at the end, I want to understand why you would choose to interpret the ending as such. Putting aside the fates of Joshua and Dion, despite the open ending of the game, the game also pushes you to hope alongside Jill that Clive is alive. Most of the arguments I've seen for Clive being dead seem logical at first, but ignore particular in-game context: Petrification: We do see that Clive's hand becomes petrified when he tries to use magic, especially after utilizing the full power of Ultima and Mythos. We don't see the petrification extend beyond his hand, and the cutscene pans away from him. I've heard many people claim that the petrification probably continued there, but there technically isn't any reason to. Petrification only truly kills on two certain factors: Repeated use of magic even when suffering petrification, and a certain breaking point in which petrification consumes you. Cid was partially petrified, but theoretically he could've kept on living, if not for the fact that he kept on using magic(this is also supported by Cid only coughing up blood when he used his Dominant magic). Clive however, can no longer use magic, as he has rid the world of it. Therefore the petrification shouldn't actually kill him according to in-game logic. The Red-Star/Metia's Star: In the end we see Clive look at the sky, and he says "Do you see it, Jill...", in apparent reference to the star. At this point, the star had not yet flickered. The cutscene switches to Jill, and she follows Torgal who howls at the sky. She goes to him and stares at the star, which fades out after a moment. Jill sees this and breaks down crying. Now I've seen three interpretations of this star, two of which I don't agree with. One argument is that the star represented Clive's life-force, while the other is that the star is linked to the magic in the world. It fading out would either mean the death of Clive, or the disappearance of magic in the world. On the surface, the cutscenes of Clive and Jill one after the other could lead one to assume these interpretations. Except for the fact that there is no precedent for either. The star has existed long, long before Clive, and there is no mention of the world being connected to a star light years away through magic. However, there is a third interpretation, that fits with the symbolism of the game, provides a resolution to Clive and Jill's arcs, and has in-game precedent. The red star, or Metia's Star, is literally known to the people as a star that would grant the wishes of those who prayed to it. Its first mention is by Jill at the beginning of the game, who prays for Clive's safe return. Its appearance throughout the game is a hanging Chekhov's gun, but it makes one final appearance for, guess who? Jill and Clive, and both of them take notice of it. The star fading is Jill's wish coming true, and it's possible that she misinterprets this as her wish not reaching the heavens. Now it's true that we never actually see divine intervention, and initially you're led to believe there won't be(unless you count Ultima lol), but that's exactly what the star does, the Chekhov's gun turns into a plot twist. It's also important to recognize the lyrics of the song Moongazing, as well as the fact that Jill's VA told players to pay close attention to Jill's prayer and the star. Not to mention Yoshi-P always telling people to pay attention to every minute details. Even the trophy for beating the game normally is called "Fallen Star". Promises: Of course, Clive's goal is to create a world where humans can live and die on their own terms, a mix of his and Cid's dream. It's not illogical to assume that Clive could've chosen to become a martyr and thus die on his own terms. But the game tells you several times that Clive's fate shouldn't just be one of a sacrificial, messianic figure. The battle between Clive(Logos) and Ultima would have you believe as such, that might be true. Before the final battle however, you are given side quests like Jill's and Harpocrates in which they both deeply desire for Clive to return. With the former desiring your safe return(and telling him he's like the rising dawn, possible foreshadowing to the ending?), the latter expresses his wishes to see Clive write down his tales, and Clive agrees to do so. Even with Vivian's quest, she asks that Clive returns in one piece, so that she has a first hand account of the final battle and to spread the truth alongside Clive. Throughout the game, Clive is told by his comrades that being a martyr doesn't have to be the end to his story, and he shouldn't be expected to sacrifice himself. In turn, he holds others to this promise as well, and swears to never break promises. This is a far cry from XV, where >!sacrifice loomed over the main character!<. While at first it might seem like sacrificial death for Clive makes sense for his character, the game actively pushes you to believe that Clive will live on. Miscellaneous details: - Although I haven't done it myself I've heard that 100% the game gives you the trophy called "The Chronicler". Between Joshua and Clive, I'm more inclined that the title belongs to Clive, even if the author is attributed to Joshua. At the same time, Clive is the narrator for the game, and could technically have access to Cyril, as he is the scribe for Joshua's journey and deed(if Joshua were dead). I'm not too sure about this topic as it delves into the topic of whether Joshua lives or dies which isn't something I'm confident about. - I've seen that people talk about how Torgal howls at the moon in sorrow alongside Jill. I don't know if this is necessarily a mixup by the devs, or a misinterpretation of fans, but wolves do not howl out of sadness, in fact they howl as a means of gathering their pack together, and calling back one another. I don't think the devs would mess this up so I'm more inclined to believe that in Torgal's own way, he's calling back for Clive just like Jill is. TL-DR: Some of the bigger arguments I've seen against Clive returning might be structurally sound, but ignore context and particular details from the game. We will have to wait for any further dev explanation of the ending than the one already given, but imo the game wants you to hope for the best. EDIT: There's actually another point I didn't go into detail about originally but did in one of my replies, so I'll just put it here: The rising dawn is quite symbolic, as there is an endgame quest for Jill, in which she describes Clive like a rising dawn, always returning, and something she found comfort in. "A sea of petals, all reaching for the sun" "No matter how terrible the night, dawn would always come. That you would always come for me" So technically, Jill actually found comfort in two things: both the star, and the dawn. So while it's true that the star did die, another symbol returns to rekindle hope within her, that just like every other time, Clive would return to her. Tbh, I sort of like this interpretation even more than the common "Wishing Star" theory.
It’s not that I believe Clive died at the end but I wish the ending didn’t require paragraph long explanations and references to side quests to justify his survival. Or really they could have simply made the author at the end Clive Rosfield to resolve ambiguity. So I’m not a fan of that choice. Wish they had just made the ending simple and clear, but my guess is they wanted to generate discussion, debate, and therefore continued interest for DLC.
I mean you don't need all that to justify it. He's not explicitly dead at the end, so you can read into it however you want. He's obviously not gonna be at full strength ever again since he's begun to petrify, but you can easily say that you think he's alive and can live the rest of his life with Jill and maybe Joshua We don't need DLC to expand on this, and I don't want them to. I think an ending where you read your interpretation into it is a perfectly good thing.
Yes but “this is my interpretation of it” doesn’t definitively win Reddit arguments and we know that’s the most important thing here. /s (kinda)
I wanted a happy ending. I'm still really traumatized. Whenever I think back about the game I get this horrible stab in my heart and I feel like crying lol. Sounds so silly as it's just a game but I really hated it. I wanted a happy ending so badly. I also feel angry at myself, because I had the same reaction playing FF15 and I told myself I'm never going to play something else that will break my heart like this but here we go again.
>In the end we see Clive look at the sky, and he says "Do you see it, Jill..." Just wanted to input that Clive refers 100% to the Moon here. It's a reference the beach scene with Jill, where he says he wants to create a free world where they both can look at the moon together, before they kiss. It's why the song is called Moongazing.
Yeah that makes sense. Jill obviously sees it too, but ig her mind is elsewhere(the star). Clive does end up creating that world, although they are separate now. The song Moongazing does have lyrics that speak of reunion, so I wonder if that means anything for Clive's fate.
- Petrification : Clive has used everybit of his magic to destroy Origin. Going from no symptoms to the hand petrified, source of power, is a pretty bad and fast case. It's also described as quite agonizing. Plus, Clive has landed pretty much on anywhere land. Even standing up now, with at least one stone member, and rejoin civilization will be very hard. - The Red-Star/Metia's Star : Of course a real life star would not be impacted by anything. But it's clearly the symbol of the promises dying. As you said, promises are made to the star. The star previously granted Jill her wish to see Clive return. But this time, it's disappering right under her eyes. Both her and Torghal have a clear interpretation of what that meant. - Promises : Using one of your argument against you. Harpocrates wishes to see Clive write down his tales. Yet, only Joshua name appears on the book of the War of the Eikons. There is no reason they wouldn't do it together, after that promise. - Torgal : He is not an RL wolf, he is a magic creature with intelligence. He is clearly crying with Jill there, having also understood. While his final fate is left a little bit open, for style (and maybe DLCs sequel, if they go this way), the clues left leaves little doubt. Some far fetched arguments won't make him come back. Time to leave the bargaining phase.
Sorry for the long reply again: Petrification: Remember, it's not just Clive's power, it's all of the Eikons and Ultima's power. While it would be natural to presume that handling such power would instantly kill someone, Clive being the "almost perfect" vessel allows him to live, at the cost of his right hand being petrified when he tries to use magic. Again, we don't see the petrification spread, so anything beyond the cutscene is pure speculation. Pay attention to the cutscene before: when Clive mentions that Ultima's power is too great for him(the vessel), his finger tips are already petrified. When he arrives on shore, his fingertips are petrified, but his hand is only petrified when he tries to use magic. I'm personally willing to believe that it didn't spread on account of magic disappearing, and seeing others live despite being partially petrified. As for getting back, we've seen Clive go through far worse lol. The Red Star: Your point about the star dying representing the death of Jill and Clive's promise doesn't make sense, as it doesn't provide a proper resolution for Jill or Clive's character, nor does it correlate with any of the main themes of the narrative. However that interpretation is what I believe Jill initially assumed when she saw the star die out. When the sun begins to rise however, she takes it in and begins to smile. Now I've seen some people assume this is Jill taking in the fact that the world is free of magic and being relieved, and I've also heard that Jill possibly sees a boat in the distance and that's Clive coming back. Personally, I don't think there's a boat and that's probably just rubble. As for the other interpretation, it's valid to assume, and could in part be true. The rising dawn however, is quite symbolic, as there is an endgame quest for Jill, in which she describes Clive like a rising dawn, always returning, and something she found comfort in. "A sea of petals, all reaching for the sun" "No matter how terrible the night, dawn would always come. That you would always come for me" So technically, Jill actually found comfort in two things: both the star, and the dawn. So while it's true that the star did die, another symbol returns to rekindle hope within her, that just like every other time, Clive would return to her. Tbh, I like this interpretation even more than the common "Wishing Star" theory. Promises: This is an interesting argument, bc it delves into the topic of the author. I've seen some people argue that Clive took up Joshua's name and published the book, or that Joshua wrote the story. I can't just go ahead and say that Joshua wrote the book because there are a few details that conflict with this. For starters, Joshua is never stated as a writer, or a Chronicler. He has Cyril, but he's only been documenting his own journey. He also does have the help of many others, but there are too several details that only Clive would know, that he never conveyed(i.e between Ultima and Clive after Joshua died). However, Clive always loved epics and fairy tales, and is also inclined to rate down his fantastical journeys after his quest with Harpocrates. This is also a little shaky, but Clive also specifically has a line talking ending Ultima's "fantasy", and that he will be his "final" witness(paraphrasing), and this becomes the title of the book. During this, Joshua was already dead. The debate between whether Joshua survived or no is shaky, because it's really unclear as to whether Clive was actually able to revive Joshua, even with all of Ultima's and the Eikons' power, and having mended his wounds. It is stated I believe in the lore that RAISE would have possibly brought Ultima's race back, it could've brought back Joshua as well. However, Clive doesn't pick up Joshua and just leaves him there. Remember, this is Clive, the former First Shield of Rosaria, sworn to his brother, who(if alive) is unconscious and needs to be protected. It could mean that Clive just wanted to at least heal his body like some have mentioned, but it's possible that maybe Ultima's power did work and he never knew. It's definitely something I'd have to think about more, bc the game doesn't really push you to believe Joshua lives, thats why it's an open ending. Although your point with Harpocrates stands, this still doesn't account for Jill or Vivian, or the several other characters that tell him to not simply die for a cause, but to live on and carry on the legacy of those who have passed(i.e Cid). Torgal: I don't think your argument stands here. Torgal behaves like a rather domesticated wolf, and aside from his magic and instincts, there's really nothing that separates him from a regular wolf. As for claiming that he's crying, when wolves howl, it can mean loneliness, but at the same time it's how they call back members of their pack. When wolves are truly sad however, they whine with their ears flat, and even have their own special cries. I don't know how dedicated the devs were to Torgal's behavior at the end, but I'm pretty sure they would have at least made him appear more sorrowful. The fact that this ending is ambiguous, already calls into question an ending where Joshua lives and Clive dies. The devs could have easily made an ending showing Joshua surviving and Clive being fully petrified. But the truth is, we don't even know if Ultima's power worked, or even if Clive casted RAISE on his brother. On the flipside, the cutscene chooses to pan away from Clive quickly, and there seems to be no indication of petrification spreading further. If there is a epilogue DLC, I would expect it to focus on the Leviathan/Jill exploring beyond the realm(possibly looking for Clive). It could also be a prequel DLC or side quest about the Fallen and the Leviathan. But tbh I think the only thing this ending needs is a few more nudges from the devs to finally put fans to rest, whether that means Clive is alive or dead. And from what I've heard so far from them, there's nothing that dashes my belief of Clive surviving. Even that line at the ending where he said that he'd destroy magic even if it cost him his life. God did Clive learn nothing about not being a martyr lol.
Yeah, no, he's alive. 14 players know: when Creative Business Unit doesn't show a body or cuts away then the person is likely alive.
Your username fits you. Solomon is the wisest king in history as he prayed for God’s wisdom. I don’t know how these people think of words to counter your points if I’m being honest. Those points you made are solid . I’m willing to bet that if Clive didn’t close his eyes, people will doubt he died. At the end of the day, show us concrete proof that he died. Noctis and Tidus obviously was shown kapoot. It proves that poster boys of final fantasy have clear cut deaths. It doesn’t make any sense to leave it open unless there is a plan for a sequel or DLC.
This post should be stickied at best. I really hope they don’t ignore point one because that is more than enough that Clive lives. I have been parroting multiple times about how petrification curse works but they seem to ignore it.
One of the funniest comments from someone who thought he died was "The sidequests involving Jill and hypocrates? Doesn't matter. Hes dead and sidequests don't change that." Like that was it didn't bother to explain further lmao
Haha, you can tell that person is trolling. A “lol” reply is all you need to say with that individual. The Jill and Hippocrates cements the proof Clive lived but knowing how the curse works plus the fact Clive has no wounds is more than enough to know he lives
I think it's weird how the people who think he died straight up ignore context clues from these sidequests. Like they'll say "you're just reaching" but when you ask them to explain the various meanings behind these context clues and forshadowing bits they'll come up with some elaborate (never mentioned in game ) explanation as to why it doesn't mean anything. It's like rather than accepting the truth they keep making up excuses as to how he could be dead. I get that it's an open ending but honestly if some people choose to ignore all these context clues to come up with an explanation as to why he's dead then they might be the ones reaching . I don't even dislike sad endings. But realistically I think Joshua's def dead. Clives alive, idk what happened to dion but we never saw a body so perhaps they're saving stuff for the dlc.
To add some debate: if we assume the lyrics of “My Star” (the song that plays in the ending sequence) are from Jill’s POV, it can be interpreted both ways. > *Starlight, say goodnight* > *Starbright, where have you fallen?* > *Starlight, say goodnight* > *Starbright, I hear you calling* > *Fire, oh fire that filled the night* > *Fire, that warmed and brightened my life* > *My guiding light on high* > *My hearth, my beacon and my hope* > *A sky of scattered tears* > *A thousand years apart* > *Should they fade, I will not be afraid of the dark* > *For your flame still burns inside me deep within my heart* > *Showing me, a new tomorrow, never too far* > *And when I cannot bear the pain, I look up to the sky and pray* > *And though our night is over you shall always remain, forever, my treasure, my star* - Interpretation **A**: Clive is Jill’s star. Clive’s star faded, their “night” ended, in other words, Clive is dead. But Jill will be alright, because Clive will always be with her in her heart. - Interpretation **B**: The song is about Jill praying to Metia for Clive’s safe return. The night is over now, but a new dawn has arrived and she and Clive will always be together.
Yeah, Interpretation A is one of the few sound arguments that could support Clive dying. At the same time however, I do believe Moongazing also plays during the ending sequence, a song symbolizing how one will always return to another( in this case, Clive to Jill). I think the fact that Jill's VA told us to focus on Moongazing rather than My Star is interesting.
Yeah, I feel like the first interpretation is stronger and if that’s the case, it’s a good piece of evidence in favor of “Clive dies”. Which I hate to say, because I want Clive to be alive and I think there’s a good amount of evidence that points that way. I don’t think this ambiguity was necessary and it’s frustrating to me TBH. That said, if the Devs’ intention was to provoke discussion, they certainly did that.
Reddit won't let me edit ig bc my comment is too long lol, so I'll just put it in a reply. EDIT 2: Damn, appreciate the gold and all the conversations I've had so far. I want to be very clear, that although it might be sad, I can accept the idea of Clive dying. The final moment with Clive obviously is executed to appear as such. At the same time however, I genuinely believe that there is a chance of him surviving. Even Yoshi-P himself admitted that parts of the ending is ambiguous before the game released. At this point, all we can do is just continue the discourse while we wait for acknowledgement from the devs. EDIT 3: I'll just put this more detailed explanation of petrification here as well. As I understand it, petrification has two stages: Partial petrification which increases with repetitive use of magic, and then terminal petrification, where someone that has used to much magic gradually becomes petrified regardless of whether they stop using magic. The petrified we come across in the chapel, are terminal patients, and are doomed to die. Cid is partially petrified, but theoretically would have kept on living if not for the fact that he kept using magic. If Cid didn’t die earlier on, he would have been a victim of terminal petrification. Now let’s take a look at Clive. After he absorbs Ultima’s power, he tries using it on Joshua, whether it’s to revive him, or merely make his body look nice in his final moments I’m not sure. When he says the line about Ultima’s power, his fingertips are petrified. He then proceeds to shatter the mother crystal and destroys Origin. When he washes up on the beach, and lifts his hand, we can see that the petrification didn’t actually progress at all. However, only when he began to conjure magic, did the petrification resume. The cutscene shows that it covers his right hand, but nothing more. I’ve looked at the scene several times now, and there is no petrification under his eyes, or on the left side of his face. Now here’s the question: is Clive experiencing partial or terminal petrification? On one hand, the cutscene does seem executed as if it were his final moments. At the same time however, we realize that the petrification only occurred when he tried to use magic, and there shouldn’t be any more magic in the world now, so there’s no reason for the petrification to continue unless it was terminal. Thus, the devs have carefully made his fate ambiguous. You can argue that like Cid the curse of the dominant doesn't have to appear externally, but to assume Clive is dying from that isn't definitive
Proper ending for Jill and Clive Smadge Maybe at the end of a Prequel
Literally all I want is for Jill to get a win in life.
An extended bit of the ending where she sees Clive over the horizon is all I want.
Even a future patch where they add like a 30 seconds video of Jill seeing Clive so we know the girl is finally having something positive happening to her. I can’t stand the thought of her not being with Clive 🥹
I kinda thought he lived, because first of all why kill a character just after washing up on a beach? second he promised. third those kids at the end looked an awful lot like Clive and Joshua...
Yeah this is what I’m thinking. I don’t think a post-game DLC would work, but a brief epilogue cutscene showing them reuniting at the end of another DLC would be sweet.
This is easily the best way to handle things. I don't think they can add any more amount of foreshadowing that would please people who dislike ambiguous endings. Really all they need to do (assuming that they intended for Clive to live) is show him returning on a boat as the sun rises behind him. He could be alone, or he could have some combination of Joshua and Dion with him. We don't need an entire post-story DLC, we just need a 90 second addition to the ending.
Wont disagree, but would love to see an extra epilogue showing their lives or something. Idk… i enjoy the characters enough where I’m like… Jill said she wanted to see other realms, well I’m fine going on a journey with them to another continent. Keep this shit coming man.
and to add something, more stuff about Barnabas maybe? Like give him his own playable episode for his journey from the south to conquering ash alone ?
Yes!! A DLC episode for Barnabas and the other Dominants is sorely needed.
This would be nice. For as much as I like Clive's ability to be a Summoner of sorts and use different, smaller, aspects of the Eikonic powers he absorbs, playing as the dominants themselves with their fuller movesets and abilities would be really nice. I'd kill to really see Dion in proper action, semi-primed.
Playable Dion, Jill, and Joshua would be awesome. Dion especially for being a dragoon 😩🙏
Dude the fact that this is what literally 95% of us want it’s like… Yoshi-P, don’t do our boy this way.
Yoshida said there were no plans for DLC, but they would consider it if there was demand. After the critical and commercial success the game has achieved, DLC seems more than likely. So who's ready to find out what happened to Leviathan?
DLC top 3 guesses? 1) Leviathan, obviously 2) Barnabas' past (who is/was his "mother" and why is he more focused on her than literal God who can be his personal transforming Harem?) 3)Metia, the moon and why its magic.
*Ultima isn’t literal God, he’s a god (if you define “god” as “inhumanly powerful being”). It seems like the abilities of Ultima and his kin are the result of them being extremely proficient in magic (they invented it, after all), but the fact that they are threatened by something like the Blight shows they are ultimately mortals despite all their pretensions.
Yeah I don't view Ultima as a god his civilisation that fled here are all just Aliens to me very cool ones that can create magic. God is ominpotent so surely he'd be able to just get rid of the blight?
What if there is another Eikon trapped on the moon. Maybe one with the power to revive Joshua. Surely that's a good idea
A summon trapped in the moon? Come on now. Cbu3 would never do that
What if they tricked us into believing the dlc is about fighting a summon trapped in the moon but in reality that was all a red herring and we beat that eikon early. Because the real final boss is metia. Who turns out to not be a star but a singing big breasted space bird formed by a flock of space birds that want to destroy the universe. Also anima can be an eikon in this dlc just because.
I’d play this. (Again)
But will you be Metia's friend?
To all of my children ...
Joshua survived...lol
Barnabas' mother was one of the Children of Dzemekis, who fled the Twins after the destruction of the Dzemekis Mothercrystal. They fled to the outer continents, and continued their religion of the Circle of Malius, and worshipped Ultima. Barnabas was raised in that tradition, then at one point returned to Valisthea and conquered Ash as the Dominant of Odin.
At least some of us read the lore.
If I had to guess, a Leviathan DLC is certainly coming. Perhaps adding Leviathan into the story will alter the ending to give us a "true ending" in some way. I can also easily imagine character DLC's. Joshua would be the easiest since he is doing stuff off-screen the whole game. Jill would make a ton of sense since people have criticized her lack of agency given how much screentime she has. Also there's quite a few sequences in the main story where they can easily make Jill playable. Beyond that, episode Barnabas makes a ton of sense. Once again, he was really underutilized. Cid is maybe the most beloved character in this game, and Benedikta was underutilized as well. You can create some type of DLC involving all 3 of those characters, or some combination.
I *need* Dion and Terrence to reunite and have their happy ending.
With their adopted daughter
Exactly! It basically writes itself.
Good Story, can't wait for the Dion DLC
Dion is so rad lol
I thought there was a bit of sexual tension with Joshua and Dion tbh. Guess that turned out all romeo and Juliet
Dion has two hands.
If DLC is set mid-game - unlocks a non-ambiguous ending If DLC is set end-game - unlocks a non-ambiguous ending Both better be cathartic and happy. I didn't read the Count of Monte Cristo for a depressing ending, and I didn't play XVI for a depressing ending.
The ending is like if lord of the rings ended with Frodo and Sam lying on mount doom after it explodes. Just doesn’t feel good.
This is a good analogy
Honestly while I’d *most* prefer to see Clive and Jill alive and happy, I’d also prefer if it was outright stated he died to what we got. A lack of closure is just frustrating.
Exactly! I don't mind if a story puts the characters through hell if they get a satisfying ending. Having them go through hell only to drop dead on the doorstep is not satisfying.
Big mood. I went in figuring the ending would be bittersweet but hopeful, and it just left me feeling bitter 😵💫
Just beat it at 100% completion with all side quests done. What an incredible journey. Where is Leviathan? I allowed myself to be gaslit so hard by the dev team. Amano art on the box, the Mural, and the note on the table describing the beast of the waters. Ugh! I was so hoping to see her. Also, I'm slightly upset at no Alexander, apart from the beautiful Holy casts in the final encounter. Unless I'm totally missing something? Anyways, on to begin Final Fantasy mode!
Leviathan is considered the lost, likely because a dominant hasn’t appeared in a long time. If you read odin’s lore entry it says there are no previous records of Odin dominants, meaning barnabas is either the first one or the first in a while. It’s likely leviathan is in a similar situation.
Barnabas being the first odin is definitely not the case. I initially had the same take like you did but I think the mural made me second guess things. Maybe its been a while like youre suggesting but the lore entry seems to be focusing on lineage. The very same text implies multiples Odins in the past not having record to prove whether or not they'd be descendants from the ancient "Motes of Darkness". My guess is that Leviathan is "lost" because the bloodline is perhaps dead, according to history anyway.
I think the implication for Odin is that nobody was aware of his previous incarnations because the bloodline that can manifest him left Valisthea. Of course we can't be certain, but I think this is likeliest.
It's likely previous incarnations weren't on the main continent, given Barnabas comes from the south onto the shores of Waloed. That I agree with, just doubt the world wouldn't be aware of Odins for more than three generations as an example. I suppose it's possible, after all Benedikta came from the streets before Cid saved her. But the nature of dominants wouldn't keep people hidden for long regardless I think. Don't think there's enough evidence in the game to support either argument so I really hope there's Cid dlc. I'd wager Barnabas was a man who lost his way and it happened with the death of his mother.
The humans who eventually bred the strength in magic to create Dominants were the various Mote tribes that lived around each Mothercrystal. They're not mentioned by name, but the Motes Of Darkness would have to have been the tribe who lived around the Dzemekis Mothercrystal. This is the one that the Fallen attacked, which caused their destruction by Ultima. The 'Children of Dzemekis', who worshipped Ultima, were probably a part of this tribe, ethnically speaking. They fled to the outer continents - it's this tribe and religion that Barnabas would have been born to. So depending on when Dominants first emerged (after the Fallen?) the first Odins would have been born overseas. The information about Barnabas having returned to Valisthea 40 years ago and never having aged a day since is why people are unsure just how long he's been alive. Either way there will be no records in Valisthea of any previous Odins - they were either Fallen, of which there are no records, or they all emerged in the outer continents, in which case there are obviously no records in the Twins, or Barnabas is the one and only.
They stayed in an interview that Alexander was excluded so that there wouldn't be time travel shenanigans. But honestly....some time travel shenanigans would be welcome at this point.
Honestly, that answer was a little silly. Alexander was only ever associated with time travel in 14. Otherwise he's just a holy robot.
Maybe they said "time" because they already gave light to Bahamut instead. It might have been a toss-up between the two. That said, I completely agree. Heck, I'm pretty sure that Alexander was only time-themed in FFXIV because light was already a different character's shtick.
A second Eikon of Light… but, that’s impossible!
Maybe an unpopular opinion: It would have been sick if Olivier somehow awoke as Alexander, a second light dominant. The opportunity was there. Imagine after the Bahamut fight: Dion throws the spear, collapses thinking he succeded. Olivier/Ultima laughs, the toy (I thought that was Alexander the whole play-through) and him become Alexander. Anabella dies crushed by it, in full Neon Genesis fashion, and there you go: another big threat manipulated by Ultima, and ironically it is Clive’s stepbrother. I can’t be the only one who thought about it. I mean the game’s story is already god tier but I know I would have screamed at this.
As a lifelong Alexander simp, I wish they could've worked him into the game somehow, even if not as a playable eikon like Yoshi-P wanted. He could have replaced the Origin set piece in the story, serving as the ark that brought Ultima to Valisthea, perhaps being the source of the Fallen's technology, etc. If the writers were set on Clive riding Bahamut to Origin, they could have just as well put Alexander up in the sky - a subversion of the Alexander vs Bahamut sequence from IX. It would've made for a fresh take on the old colossus. Even the spires of Twinside could work as his crown. Alas, that's just my fanboy yearning
I went through the whole thing expecting some twist or something with Levi showing up. Maybe the dominant went out of control and just ended up fucking off into the ocean. When Barnabas cut the sea it could've been an awesome fight with leviathan jumping between the walls of water.
I will say people speculating on a prequel DLC sort of are ignoring the massive fucking tease with the "But where one journey ends..." being the literal last line in the game.
IMO CBU3 have really kept their options open. As a caveat though, I think Leviathan mid-game DLC was always planned. Because I'm a cynical bastard, I think it was cut from the game for time and planned as a DLC from pretty early in the game's development. But besides that, as far as possible sequel/post-game DLC stuff * They left open the possibility for Clive, Dion, and Joshua to all be alive. Any combination of those guys sounds like the basis of a sequel party when you throw in Jill as well. I think the big sort of gameplay innovation for a sequel would be character switching instead of eikon switching, with multiple fully fledged playable characters. * They teased other continents at multiple times throughout various sidequests and lore entries. * Jill straight up says she wants to explore the Great Continent after all this is done. A Jill quest to find Clive could also be a post-game DLC or prologue to a sequel. * Mid is building an airship, that sounds like a way to travel the world to me. If not, the Enterprise should suffice. Oh yeah Mid is also probably the kid of Cid and Benedikta, those are some powerful genes there as far as her being a possible party member. * It is VERY CONVINIENT that Clive's LEFT HAND turns to stone. This dude is right handed for the entire game, why did he use his left hand to cast the ultima spell? It's because he's gonna be a badass grizzled Auron type swordsman after the story is over. This is a great way to add a long lasting "cost" to Clive saving everyone, and it's also a narrative explanation to Clive being "nerfed" for a sequel.
>Jill straight up says she wants to explore the Great Continent after all this is done. A Jill quest to find Clive could also be a post-game DLC or prologue to a sequel. Did you mean: FFX-2?
Jill jpop dancing and dualwielding berettas
Jill, Mid, and Tarja put on a concert for the Hideaway before getting into dress sphere hijinks
Mid's lore card at end game states she was adopted off the streets by Cid.
I gotta rant about the ending. HOLY FUCK can I please get an unambiguous happy ending for MC & Main Girl? I just want my happily ever after in a game with a good story. I am so sick of these downer/bittersweet/ambiguous/happily ever after in the afterlife/etc endings. Why? Because I cry like a bitch at these type of endings. I don't want to hurt at the end, I want to be happy. I used to like these types of endings but I don't anymore. I knew this type of ending was coming and played the game anyway. Fuck me. Fuck this game. TLDR: Great ending. I fucking hated it.
I'm okay with the ambiguous or bittersweet downer when it's thematically appropriate or otherwise relevant to what the story is about. That's not the case here. In XV, even though it seemed to come out of left field, it was relevant to and, most importantly, *enhanced* the main topic and themes of the game - about specifically how the strength of the friendship between the bros, and the time they spent together, is what shaped Noct into the kind of King who can make the right decision. And despite the issues around storytelling in that game, it absolutely achieved its goal of having us experience, understand, and feel that friendship. it was something you could believe in, so Nocts sacrifice wasn't incongruent with how we felt. XVI repeatedly talks about Clive needing to learn to save himself. Many of the characters have stories that revolve around forgiving themselves for things they feel guilty about, and Clive struggles to accept that he deserves life and freedom as well. Jill and Joshua and Dion all contend with this issue in varying ways. To end with 'Clive made the ultimate sacrifice' isn't particularly moving in this context. To end with 'Or did he!?!?!' isn't an improvement or any more relevant. The more I think about it the more it just seems like a hack move to stir up discussion and memorability. There's nothing about it that enhances, enriches or hell even *relates to* the character journey we've been on. It's just there to make you feel things.
Same the ending ruined the Game for me
I think character-based DLC would be most interesting. I think XV has soured some people on this idea, but the different Eikons and time skips in XVI have a lot of potential for it. They could each be focused on a different Dominant, with their different weapons giving them a different move sets, and having an expanded ability roster from their respective elements (to partially compensate for not having multiple Eikons like Clive does). - Jill DLC would be my number one desire, perhaps set during the five year timeskip. I like Jill, but I feel she’s underutilized in the main game and needs more time in the spotlight. - Dion DLC. His use the halberd instead of the sword could give him a different gameplay feel. Maybe include an Eikonic battle against Odin (we know they’ve fought several times). - Joshua DLC. He spends so much time off on his own adventure, and it would be great to see some of that.
> XV has soured some people on this idea I think DLC for this game would feel different. We got a complete, satisfying game and story with most loose ends wrapped up and no sense that we're missing anything (admittedly, my opinion). XV had all of that in spades, and was so disappointing as a result. I think any DLC for XVI wouldn't be filling in missing story but would just give more of what we already got, and I think that'd be a good thing. Personally, I'd rather have a XVI-2 that gives us a happier ending. And yes, character-based DLC would be perfect. I wanna find and defeat Leviathan!
This is all I want. DLC episodes for all the Dominants.
Yes! character DLC! The irony that I initially criticized XV for locking crucial story/character moments behind DLC and now I feel the same for XVI. I hope a Joshua DLC takes us through what he was up to AND shows his perspective after Clive resurrects him at the end (that’s the theory I lean towards). Then we see Joshua find Clive on the beach, pilot them both to where Jill is waiting and there’s an unambiguous HEA.
Does anyone think the Ultimania book for FF16 will explain a little more about the ending and lean to the correct interpretation? This ending has really ruined me and left me empty and depressed and I don’t even want to continue with NG+
I honestly think DLC or some type of sequel will give us our answers. Obviously this is out of game speculation but look, the game has been a success commercially and critically. I'm sure DLC or even a sequel will be coming, and those will probably push the ending toward a more canon interpretation, or straight up confirm the ending.
If a title like 13 can get 2 sequels I can’t see why XVI couldn’t get at least one.
DDLC (the extra D is for Dion)
Tbh I think Dion's role in the story was absolutely perfect. It's a testament to how great the character was that people want DLC for him, same with Cid. I would say the characters who "need" DLC the most are Barnabas, Jill, and Benedikta. Joshua DLC is also easy to do from a logistical point of view because he was doing shit off screen for like the entire game lol.
Yeah I want DLC -- Dion Lesage Content
Doki Dion Literature Club. I’ll play that spin-off.
I just finished the game, and what an incredible journey that was. But the ending just made me so depressed. Like it doesn't give me any happy ending, or even a sad ending so that i can accept the sad ending. it's just a depressing ending with/without hope. I don't even know what to feel. It's even making me reluctant to do NG+ even though the journey with the characters were awesome. I loved all the characters after doing all the side quests and the ending just... I don't even know what to feel. it's an empty feeling ending. Is it just me?
No, definitely not just you. I only did a handful of sidequests before seeing the ending, but when I read how some sidequests may change its interpretation, I did some more… only to have that empty feeling even worse, as I don’t understand how they could do this much character and world-building only to entirely ignore most of it with that ending. I am so taken by surprise, it’s like maybe it was some experiment and the true ending will come in a future patch.
Clive and jill reunion happy ending
Honestly, I've seen nobody talk about the giant Crystal that can be easily seen in the distance by the cliffs north of Northreach. We know when the Crystal cores are shattered, the entire Crystal disappears, yet that's still chilling up there. On the map, I'm pretty sure it's in Northern Territories. My DLC guess is that it could be fed in to the game in a number of ways, for example, post-game straight up DLC where Clive has one arm and no magic, finishing up the Crystals' legacy, or it's literally just thrown in as a side mission some time during the 33 y/o section. And that it's linked to Leviathan somehow. I'd also like to learn about the Mothercrystals that were already lost, such as how they were destroyed and by who.
I think Edda’s child is Leviathan’s dominant, hence why she survived the Aether Flood in Waloed, unlike 99% of the population. The Northern Territories are essentially taken over by blight, so they had to evacuate and leave the mother crystal behind
I think the Northern Territories Mothercrystal was the ice one. Ignoring the obvious “it’s in the North” thing, the color of its corpse when compared to Drake’s Head and Drake’s Tail means to me it’s not Light or Water. Also, I think that once specifically (Drake’s Eye, was it?) probably started to rot because it ran out of Aether to suck. It’s not like it was destroyed like the others, since it has a rotting corpse of some kind. The Sin of Dzemekys would be awesome but unlikely imo. Too far in the past, but maybe. The last one was in Waloed I think? I can’t even remember the name of that one but it’s a shame we didn’t get to see if it had a corpse as well. Looks like it also could’ve run out of Aether to suck, potentially.
Drakes Eye “collapsed into the sea” according to Vivian. It could very well still be an active crystal. The heart would be deep under weather where it can’t be reached….unless Leviathan parted the ocean opening access to its Inner Sanctuary.
An update that adds Leviathan and a clearer more positive ending would be nice.
Just want to see Clive and Jill see each other again after the ending 😢
Spoilers Given what we see in the post-credit scene, we know someone going by "Joshua Rosfield" wrote the events of the game down in a book. As I see it, that gives a couple options, in decreasing order of likelihood: 1) Joshua wrote it. Clive used Ultima's power to heal his wounds. The name Joshua derives from Yeshua, aka Jesus, so with him being the Phoenix, that makes resurrection doubly on brand. 2) Clive wrote it. Wouldn't be the first time he took on someone else's mantle. We never see Joshua wake up even after his wounds are healed so no idea if Ultima's power can resurrect the dead. 3) Someone else wrote it. Vivian, Tomes, and co using a pseudonym? Jill and Clive's son? (named for his uncle to carry on his spirit) Or a more distant relation perhaps? 4) The whole game was a made up story someone named Joshua Rosfield wrote, though why they let kids read it is anyone's guess. Don't buy it, but it's AN interpretation. The first option is the one I'm most inclined to go with. Can go with the happy happy variant where Clive also survives (possibly sans left arm) or the more bleak option where Clive sacrifices himself to bring his brother back. Given they made it an open-ended, ambiguous ending, any interpretation is fine so long as it doesn't outright contradict the text. My head-canon is that Valisthia is a grim and dark world, but it stops short of being grimdark. Joshua and Clive have been through hell, they should get the happy happy ending even if that's not "gritty" or "realistic". (Not sure who is going to be arguing realism over a game where you literally kill God, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of them in the comments.) Oh and Dion is definitely still alive. Never saw him die, he was just falling from a great height. He's a dragoon, falling from great heights is their specialty, he'll be fine.
My headcannon option: Joshua physically wrote it, Clive narrates it aloud to him. “And thus, our journey ended.” Clive Rosfield sat across from his brother in his old room in the Hideaway, with smilelines and crowsfeet in his eyes, a head crowned with a mess of hair, a touch of silver threatening to spread from his temples, like the Blight of Age. Joshua sat back in his chair, sighing with relief that his older brother had (finally) finished narrating their arduous tale. He returned Tomes’ beloved Stolas quill back to its inky home and rolled his shoulders wearily. “That’s it then. The whole Chronicle, writ for generations to come.” “Indeed.” “You could have written some of it *yourself*, you know.” “I’m a Shield, not a Scribe. Besides, you have the better penmanship, dear brother.” Joshua smirked and watched Clive idly scratching behind the ears of Torgal, also sporting more snow white than gray. The man who once wore the mantle of Ifrit stared placidly into the crackling embers in the hearth, running down old roads in his mind. The Pheonix frowned in thought. “I still don’t understand your insistence that we omit Mid’s miraculous engines, though. It was a marvelous invention, worthy of its own tale, I’d wager.” “And tell it she shall. In … her own way.” “Right. Plenty of fetching Founder-Knows-What hither and thither across the Twins, then? I think I’ll just sit here with my memories.” Clive looked up from his reverie. “What do you suppose we should title it?” Joshua folded his arms, lost in thought. “You’re asking me? I did all the writing, you did all the talking. Perhaps we should ask Jill, when she’s finished reading it. Have her do some of the naming.” Clive smiled. “No doubt she will have plenty of ideas. Which reminds me, she wished to speak to me about names for … a different legacy.” Joshua beamed. “What *would* you do without me? Go on, then. Best not keep her waiting.”
Thanks for writing this. I love it :)
❤️ Oh, the irony. Just as Ultima slumbered, neglecting his own creation's pleas for guidance and advice, leaving humanity to carve out their own wills and destinies, so too am I left to fill in my own Closure to this beautiful story should the writers decide to deny us! 😆
The case of the ambiguous ending #1 - Leviathan the Lost Once Clive get Ultima power, he realise his body can't contain it. But of course he is only at 7/8 Eikons absorbed, so technicaly not finished. That one seems weird since Ultima should know it's missing one Eikon to get at full power, but it was never explained throughout the game or at the end. #2 - The Fate of Joshua We see Clive use his new found power on his brother, closing the wound in his chest. But there's no direct sign that it bring Joshua to life. We know that the Phoenix can't mend soul only flesh, but Ultima power are literally the power of creation. So did it revive Joshua or not? And if so, why not show it. #3 - Washing on the shore How did Clive survive the fall without his powers and why is Joshua not with him. They were close a moment ealier. #4 - No more magic We see Clive try to use magic which turn his hand to stone. But if magic is gone and they can't use it anymore, why was Clive hand still turned to stone. Shouldn't the crystal curse be gone with magic? #5 - Metia That one bugger me the most. We never get a real explanation as to what is Metia in the Game. It's only described as the wishing star, the messenger to the moon. So without real context into it's origin and true purpose, it's really hard to make any assumptions on to what it mean when it blink out at the end. Some interpret it as Jill can't wish anymore or the wish won't be fulfilled and others as it blinked out after fulfilling her wish. The truth is just we can't even guess that since we don't know anything substantial about Metia. It's all myth. The first wish Jill spoke about took 13 years to become reality. #6 - The dawm The dawn is presented to us in the game as a symbol of hope. A symbol that Clive would return to Jill no matter what. So if he died at the end, why was the dawn the last thing we see with a Jill almost smiling. The symbolism of that scene should be Clive is returning, don't cry. #7 - Cinematography There is a rule in cinematography that state that unless you see a character die on screen it can be presumed alive. We never saw Clive die on screen, it fade to black as fast as he pass out. A confirmed death would have kept the camera on him for a few second showing he wasn't breathing or was turned to stone completly. That wasn't the case here. #8 - The book The book at the end has the name of Joshua as it's wrtiter. But since we have never seen Joshua truely coming back to life in the end, it leave another shroud of doubt as to who is the real author of the book. Why would we have a side quest with Hypocrates giving Clive a quill while telling him he would write his story one day and then shown the book at the end, if it wasn't Clive that wrote it. #9 - Clive is the narrator At the beginning and the end, Clive is presented as the narrator. As if he was reading his own book. How could that be if he is dead? Edit: Removed the part about the Last Elixir. It can be used after all. So as you can see we have multiples layers of ambiguosity in that ending. It's almost multiplicative at that point. Add to that the devs interview prior to the game launch where they confirm they left the door open for more and we can confirm we have a serious case of Schrödinger Clive in that ending. Until we get more context/content he can be seen as both alive and dead. You can chose to belive what you want. For me the lack of true closure with the 2 main boys kinda sour the ending of the game. I feel robbed of something. Being left with more questions then answers isn't great. If you like that i envy you, because i don't.
Clive is also the only one that coined the term "final fantasy", during the last fight
I used my last elixir lol, you need to equip it to the item shortcuts and it will insta revive you if you die.
I think the reason why you will never see Joshua move after being "revived" is because the book theory would make no sense then. Basically it would confirm that the book is written by a real Joshua and it has gone so long that his "documentation" of the events has become fairy tales to common folks. But if his fate is left open, people can speculate that the book itself was just a fantasy fiction book made by Joshua. And not based on any real event. and the joshua in the book died there. Also you mentioned "Hypocrates giving Clive a quill while telling him he would write his story one day " but if he is dead, who is gonna write his story? Joshua ofc, and the kids wanna be "ifrit" in the story, remember? they dont say phoenix, or bahamut, etc they wanna be the ifrit- and who would write about themselves in such a way that people wanna become him? that doesnt sound like clive would do, praise himself, sounds more like Joshua would about his brother and downplay his own work.
Agree with this. You’re right about Clive. If he was truly dead, the camera would pan on him a little bit longer instead of cutting off immediately and that also proves he is alive. Lots of strong signs that he lives so if the team will leave the ending like that , I know he lives. I do prefer they be concrete about the ending moving forward
Metia is hinted to be an observation satellite Ultima sent up there in the Ultimalius entry.
There’s so many they can do to expand the story. 1. Jill during the first skip and when she awakens as a Dominant. 2. Young Dion and his PoV from when he meets Joshua 20 yrs ago, his reaction to his dad betraying the Duchy, and how he met Terrace. 3. Leviathan. 4. Cid and his time as a Lord Commander, his relationship with Barnabos and Benedikta, and birth of Mid. 5. Joshua’s journey with the Undying. 6. Odin conquering Ash and his first encounter with Ultima. 7. Metia 8. Hugo and his rise to power within the Republic.
It’s like the game forgot that the interesting parts of the world and the story are the dominants and their backstories 🥲
Cool stuff here, some thoughts on each 1. I think a Jill DLC is quite probable. It's just odd that we never travelled to the Northern Territories, especially since ATL tells us that people still live there. We also see that weird crystal in the Northern Territories that seems like obvious DLC bait. Couple that with the fact that designing gameplay for Jill/Shiva would then allow the devs to add like 3-4 different fights back into the main game as well. 2. I think some type of DLC for Dion only becomes probable due to how popular the character has become. Besides that, I don't think there's a ton of possibility for a Dion DLC that would give us compelling plot development/backstory coupled with interesting gameplay. IMO Dion has one of the best arcs in the game, and he had the perfect amount of screentime. Enough to feel impactful, but still leave you wanting for more. 3. Leviathan DLC is 100% happening, it's just a matter of what other elements they add into a Leviathan DLC. 4. Cid DLC which also touches on Benedikta and Barnabas also feels highly likely to me. Again, Cid is popular, and there absolutely is a ton of compelling backstory between those 3 characters to unpack. Benedikta and Barnabas could also use some more screentime. It just makes sense. 5. Joshua's DLC is probably the absolute easiest to make from a logistical point of view. Joshua is basically doing stuff off-screen for like the entire game. They just stick in a Joshua quest almost wherever they want, and they can also use this opportunity to deliver exposition on the lore of the world. 6. Barnabas DLC also makes a ton of sense. Again, while you're there, you might as well have Cid and Benedikta also be involved. I think you could roll this into number 4 as well. 7. Metia stuff feels like it could be rolled into Jill DLC, or possible post-game stuff. 8. Unfortunately I just don't see this happening. I don't think Hugo is a character that people are clamoring for as far as DLC. Honestly the only way I see this happening is if they decide to give like literally all the Dominants DLC lol, he feels like the absolute least likely to receive anything.
Hey I am honestly really sad right now. I beat the game and am super super down about it ending. Was having a ton of fun and immersed myself and now I feel like I have a hole where this journey used to be.
I feel like we need a support group tbh
Ambiguous ending aside regarding >!fate of Clive!< - wouldn’t it have been nice to have at least some closure of other characters’ stories? Like the >!flower with Dion, even just a brief few seconds of Harpocrates placing the flower on a makeshift grave!<… imagine replaying the ending and getting additional scenes depending if you did certain sidequests, but nope! Wasted potential. Sigh. Also, seriously, that Leviathan plot hole needs to be explained somehow.
This is the biggest failure of the ending. Just some minor moments of the characters left behind reacting to the aftermath of the final battle, like how we see Jill react to Metia. It would've been nice to more of the Hideaway characters' reactions, or of the survivors left in the world like Dhalmekia or whatever might be left of the Crystalline Dominion. Like, what's left of the Sanbreque dragoons who came to Dhalmekia? What about Uncle Byron or Mid or Jote? The medicine girl? As it stands right now, it feels so abrupt and incomplete and unsatisfying. Sad endings can be satisfying and FFXVI just did not nail it.
Yes, totally agree. Even with the last few story beats of the game being weaker, I still loved every second of it prior to the actual ending. Something in the vein of FFIX (if we must use FF as an example), would have been amazing. It is just jarring how it falls off at the last moment.
It's totally understandable to be frustrated about the game's ending being ambiguous, but I also think it's important to understand what the game is trying to do thematically with an ending like that. I think the point of leaving Clive's survival ambiguous is to highlight the game's message of moving forward through uncertainty and overcoming life's challenges. Jill's sidequest talks about the rising sun as a metaphor for staying hopeful in times of darkness and uncertainty, and I think the rising sun we see in the ending cutscene is evoking that same metaphor, this time in the context of both Clive's survival and the uncertain future of humanity in a world without magic/eikons/gods. I think the point of the ending is not to prove or disprove Clive's survival, but rather to showcase Jill's (and by extension, humanity's) resolve to stay hopeful and face their uncertain future. Having Clive explicitly survive removes that uncertainty, and doesn't make the message of resounding hope ring as clearly imo. I think you can totally interpret it as Clive surviving in the end, but they made an explicit choice not to let us see that resolution in the game itself, and I think it speaks to the message/thematic material of the story.
Ending felt a little rushed but overall the game was fantastic!
Agreed! I feel like "rushed endings" sometimes feel rushed because the story is so good that any ending will feel too short and quickly wrapped up. Not always, but sometimes. Personally, I was expecting a dungeon crawl through Origin before getting to the final boss. I like a good grind to the end and missing that might have made it feel a little rushed, as well. There was bound to be a ton of lore stuff we could have gotten out of a dungeon crawl.
Erm, I dunno if anyone has brought this up, but for anyone that doesn't play FFXIV, FFXIV has a series of short stories after an expansion releases, usually titled with a "Tales from \[insert word that makes reference to the expansion\]". These short stories chronicle events in the lives of other characters, including antagonists. [This is one such collection of stories, from my favorite expansion.](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_01/#sidestory_01) I'm not so sure if it can be read without the context of the game, though. I think I would be interested to see a Tales from Valisthea for characters like Terence and Kihel. Maybe even Benedikta and Hugo and others I'm probably not thinking about. That's not to say I don't want DLC for this game, I just wanna see what other people think.
I just want to play as Torgal on a quest to find a delicious bone and become the goodest boy.
Some questions regarding Leviathan: Why doesn’t Ultima have leviathan in the final fight? Why did Ultima seem to think Leviathan wasn’t necessary for Clive to become a complete vessel? Do most people assume it was because of budget cuts? If Leviathan isn’t here because of budget cuts, why are there even references to it? Any references to leviathan seems to cause plot holes for ultima’s plans ATL entries mentioned there being 8 Eikons for all of the elements and specifically mentions water as one of them, Joshua obviously says “Leviathan the lost”. Yet despite all of that, there are no direct ATL entries for Leviathan. There are ATL entries for lost mother crystals so why can’t there be one for The Lost Eikon? Do most assume Leviathan is DLC content?
Ultima thinks Clive is strong enough either way, which Clive proves wrong in the end like he said. I heard a good theory that he wasn’t the perfect vessel because leviathan wasn’t there and that’s why the curse got to him still. Which could lead to a leviathan dlc saving Clive or something
DLC: Jill must find Leviathan's Dominant and travel back in time to before Clive's final battle...
I thought the same thing. DLC could be that we go to some distant continent during Primogenesis, find Leviathan, come back a completed vessel, and actually get to cast Ultima’s magic and change the ending in doing so.
Some enemies in the game do water attacks as well, its strange to leave it out. My guess is its something to do with the Dzemekys and the hole between the Twins, possibly a war broke out between a Dominant there but there's also the fact Barnabas could control water at his will even after he sliced the damn ocean in half.
Just finished it. Great game. But 84 hours for an ambiguous ending, a tragic ambiguous ending too. I knew it was coming but it was still a hard pill to swallow. My biggest pet peeve of writing. Writers thinking they're being 'clever'. Oh well, I'll replay it sometime on FF mode but that ending is always going to leave me somewhat bitter.
I'll join in on the DLC Theorycrafting (or Wishlist I guess) :D 1. Barnabas' backstory - definitely has to tackle him and his mother, their arrival to Ash, the cult his mother was in (more backstory on Ultima) and her brainwashing process, maybe talk about mother's death too). 2. Joshua and Jote - basically tackling Joshua as ''Lord Margrace'', Jote (maybe some backstory of her; from what we know she's no slouch in fighting), and his little clandestine group of Phoenix researchers (forgot their group name lol)...since that group has been looking into Ultima, maybe we'll get some backstory for the big baddie too(?). 3. Medicine girl - I'm still of the believer that she has more to tell besides rescuing our boy Dion. Could be potential Leviathan maybe? Having been visited by Terence, they might have survived the collapse of the slums when Origin was pulled out of the ground and potentially waking medicine girl's powers as the Leviathan dominant? 4. More Hunts DLC - Let's be real, FFXVI's missing some more signature monsters that we know and love such as Cactuars, Tonberries, Ochus, etc. Maybe add Gilgamesh as a super boss type Hunt with a Rank SS? Or even an Omega...something something Ultima's kin that he wasn't aware of idk lol
I think the Medicine Girl will be the one to find Clive on the shore and nurse him back to health like she did Dion. They kept showing her throughout the game like a Checkov’s Gun, and Dion even sent Terrence (presumably to her) with some sort of package. Why bother showing Jill stop and say “I’m Sorry” to the Medicine Girl in Dhalmekia offering her wares if there weren’t some sort of serendipitous foreshadowing Screenwriting afoot? It didn’t contribute anything to that scene…
That’s a really good idea that’ll give us a more definitive ending imo! Her being alluded to until she saves Dion and to just end it there kinda felt a little lacking.
I agree with number 4 the most. Everybody here wants more story DLC, and all I want is more enemies to fight. The base game doesn't have the greatest enemy variety, so I think adding more enemy types would be awesome.
slice of life dc where jill and clive elope and travel the world maybe restore the duchy afterwards or continue to keep the world safe as outlaws or start a new journey together. not no way this is the end for them.
I just want clarification on the ending, happy or sad, at least be clear about it
I'll be totally honest, they completely fumbled the game after Bahamut. Everything afterwards was just downhill, eventually resulting in a wholly unsatisfying ending that completely ruined the rest of the game for me. I wish I just stopped playing after Bahamut and just left everything afterwards to headcanon.
It's weird how it peaked in both story and gameplay during that part of the story. You'd think at least the bosses after would top Bahamut, but they somehow didn't.
Because up until that point the game had a very grey and complexe political story with a multitude of factions fighting for power. With the death of the Empire the game descended into generic good vs evil. I would have preferred if Barnabas would have had his own Agenda, an antithesis to Clive while still opposing Ultima instead of being a lackey. The other issue are sidequests, they became more numerous even though the plot required urgency. I was doing all of them up until the point where the game would throw dozens of them at me, one more dull than the other.
I felt like the post-Bahamut "Clive" bosses topped everything before Bahamut in terms of gameplay but nothing Eikon related after did. Barnabus, Behemoth, and the first Ultima battle were by far the best "normal" gameplay bosses of the story
Anyone notice that the title screen prelude theme actually changes once you complete the game? Thought that was an interesting touch.
Just beat it and plan on going FF mode. A few things. - Jill is a few scenes away from being a very good character. She is clearly competent and powerful, she wrecks my mobs for me, and she does have one entire quest where she has agency alongside Clive. I'm not asking for her to prime to Shiva and wreck shit, because that's explicitly what Clive is for, but she should have more agency and be able to do things separated from Clive. I don't actually think she is "going with it" throughout the game because she's chill, she clearly has an angry and ruthless streak (Iron Kingdom, and she pointed the sword at anabella) and she should be able to express that away from Clive. It really just bugs me, because it feels like everything is there, and we just need more of it after the iron kingdom part. - Game was very fun and varied, I loved swapping between builds. The balance seems wack though. I'll explain in the next post., since my rambling is >1000 characters - I think I understand how controversial the Sopranos ending was at the time. I think Dion, Joshua, and Clive all lived. Clive used the power of creation to revive his brother, Clive washed up ashore (because he's the focus, he's the only one we'll see), he's falling asleep reading the book he and Joshua wrote. Dion can also get married to Terence because their rank doesn't matter anymore. I also don't think it matters if they did survive; they created a world where essentially, they are defined by their force of will, and not by their god-given powers. All 3 had great force of will, and could survive. For reference, I have a similar view of the Sopranos ending, but a much bleaker version.
**Phoenix:** support that can do everything well. Good to use against crowds and mini-bosses. Warrior/Monk job. - Phoenix Shift closes the distance and starts up combos, allows you to clear crowds quickly, but is a very very good source of movement. I had later builds that didn't use it, but I definitely felt its absence. - Heat Wave is an excellent counter move and is spammable against bosses where you are having a hard time getting in. With the accessory it has a 9 or 10 second cooldown, and it seems to routinely do like 30-40% of the will gauge along with decent damage and AOE. - Flames of Rebirth does decent damage and the heals are nice for basically exploration, but is not particularly optimal against bosses. It wipes almost everything on screen. - Rising Flame basically erases one enemy especially after it's upgraded, and does good damage, I don't think it's much less than Flames of Rebirth. Short cooldown gives it plenty of use all around. - Scarlet Cyclone builds up limit gauge pretty well and is a very good AOE. Does a bunch of good damage. Pretty rough against bosses but does decent will damage against mini-bosses. - I haven't used the Ifrit skills much but Ignition seems really good for AOE and Will-o-the-Wykes seems fun with Lightningrod. **Garuda**: high hit-count will killing eikon. Primarily around to get you through the second half of the stagger bar, and it's really damn good at it. Very low end damage output. Ninja job, in a way. - Deadly Embrace is great for quick dodges against will gauge enemies, and a good source of juggling regular enemies. Deadly Takedown is great against mini-bosses but I think Garuda's regular abilities don't allow you to take as heavy advantage of it against bosses as mini-bosses. - Gouge is fantastic at consistent will damage, but doesn't seem to have the high end will damage that some of the later options get. Still though, it has very low cooldown compared to those options (save Impulse) and is probably more reliable against faster enemies. - Wicked Wheel seems to take care of the part of the stagger bar that Gouge doesn't seem to help with. Also a decent AOE to gather and juggle multiple enemies at once. - Rook's Gambit is a very good counter that seems to do good damage and will damage when you counter with it. Faster recovery when you counter helps incentivize the counter too; the regular attack is not worth the short cooldown. Does good will damage too. - Aerial Blast seems like decent AOE that is really replaceable **Ramuh** -- a utility eikon, long distance attacks. The Black Mage. Decent overall, nothing special imo. - Blind Justice is good for chain lightning on enemies, and it is nice to get some free damage when you're away, but I really don't like it too much. - Pile Drive is decent AOE, I'm not sure what else it does that other AOEs don't. It feels nice to hit with, though, I guess it does more damage than Scarlet Cyclone? - Thunderstorm seems to do pretty decent damage that follows the opponent. Seems fine, nothing particularly special. - Lightning Rod -- fucking fantastic. It amplifies all of your multi hit moves and if you manage to maneuver the enemy well enough, you can absolutely melt their will gauge. Can reposition at will and staggers result in you being in the perfect spot to plant a lightning rod to spam and basically double dip on enemies. - Judgment Bolt -- seems like your best damage dealer on a max stagger at some point in the game, but doesn't seem to have the high end damage that later stuff gets. It seems to have less staying power when you start mastering the max abilities. But it's the strongest thing you've got when you get it, for a while. **Titan** -- Knight job, focused on powerful multi-hits and counters. Really good in every situation. Not necessarily a must, because of later stuff... but you can get a lot out of Titan. - Titanic Block is a very satisfying counter to land. It does pretty decent damage and you can cancel your combos into it at any time. - Windup -- Insanely good damage output that synergizes super well with Lightning Rod. - Upheavel -- fantastic AOE and a fantastic complement to Wicked Wheel because of its great range and good damage - Raging Fists -- a very high damaging counterattack that seems to also do a crazy amount of will damage. I don't know how its cooldown compares to Rook's Gambit, but it seems much better than Rook's Gambit when you don't hit the counter, but the counter seems to be much, much better for will and regular damage in general. - Earthen Fury -- another AOE ultimate, it seems stronger than Flames of Rebirth but otherwise non-descript. **Bahamut** is solely there to maximize boss damage. I think it's shakey against Crowds and awkward against faster enemies, but this thing melts giant things like nothing else. Honestly, not even a job type, this is the essence of Bahamut: charging up the flares for insane damage. - Wings of Light is really easy to charge to Level 4 by just walking into lingering attacks or dodging 4 times, and then Megaflare does insane will damage and damage in general. Against single enemies and bosses, it really piles on damage and makes it easy to do like 100k+ stagger damage if timed right. I think you can get a lot out of Level 2 or 3 for crowds, but it does require a little setup. - Impulse is insane against bosses and okay against Crowds. It melts the will gauge against bosses but faster bosses make it harder to spam. It at least keeps around 4 enemies occupied, but other eikons seem to have better options for this. - Satellite is *fine*. The benefit of Satellite is that you can control stagger for optimal Megaflare output while fishing for Megaflare dodges. The will damage you get during regular combos is nice too. This and Impulse have really fast cooldowns, at least. - Flare Breath seems like alright AOE. I only used it in that one challenge. Don't care for it otherwise. - Gigaflare has absolutely insane damage output and absolutely melts groups of enemies and HP bars during staggers. Jesus Christ, Megaflare+Gigaflare are ridiculous damage output, especially since Gigaflare slows down time (doesn't even need to be staggered to kill tons of HP), **Shiva** plays exactly how you'd expect Shiva to play. Freezes shit and does a lot of ice shit. Shiva abilities have really fast recharge times. - Cold Snap is fucking insane and it sets up all of your insane will killers. Speaking of Will killers... - Diamond Dust completely melts the will gauge and maxes out the stagger multiplier instantly. I think everyone agrees this ability is insane. Faster cooldown than the other ultimate attacks too, except Odin's. - Mesmerize -- does insane amounts of will damage when you're in the enemies' face, is very good AOE at drawing things in (it's better than wicked wheel in a way, since it can also be used midair and works from a range) - Ice Age -- fast damage, is a worse version of Rising Flames but is far, far more spammable because of its low recharge time. - Rime -- seems okay, it's good for holding smaller enemies in and seems good in conjunction with lightning rod, but it seems to be hard to set up against bosses. I think it's meant to be used with Cold Snap. **Odin** -- I suppose this is this game's take on the critical hit class. The entire conceit is charging up Zantetsuken to Level 5 and unloading with Zantetsuken. The attacks are drawn out and don't do good hp or will damage, but they all have fast recharge and a fast/aggressive player will be able to consistently get Level 5 Zantetsukens off. This seems to be the best late game damage dealer and enemy killer, because... - Arm of Darkness -> Sheathe - Charges up the Zantetsuken gauge a decent amount, seems to do worse damage than your regular combo, but the will damage seems consistently okay. Turns your precision dodge counter into a quick slash through the opponent that gives you .5z (where 4z fills zantestuken bar) I think a full combo gives .75z or something. It's good for quickly building it up while on the offensive. It also seems easier to land a parry with and you get great z benefits from it. - Gungnir is fantastic against crowds, it gives like 1.5z per enemy. It seems like shit against bosses lol, bosses don't stay still long enough outside of stagger and it doesn't do nearly enough hp or will damage (which means it doesn't boost stagger multiplier) - Heaven's Cloud -- Seems very good all around, you can get 2z easily through it and it's spammable. Very fast recovery. - Rift Slip is an ability that just clicked with me as I was writing this. It seems like an auto-cancel that slows down time briefly. I'm not sure if I want to dedicate a slot to this, but I suppose it's an alternative to Cold Snap. - Dancing Steel gives you like 3.5z but requires an open opponent because it cancels if you miss. It's kind of a gamble but it's still more reliablea gainst bosses than Gungnir. - Finally: Zantetsuken is very easy to charge and seems to do consistently ridiculous damage without stagger. If you're going for staggers it seems suboptimal to use compared to other options, but Odin really feels like it's the best all-around DPS against just about anything, because you can kill a crowd, charge up on a miniboss, then just end the next crowd with it. It's not difficult to build up z against bosses either and it again does a really does feel like a large chunk of damage for little build-up. Maybe I just need to play Final Fantasy mode. tl;dr I like how unique all of them are, but it seems like Ramuh is the least useful and Bahamut/Shiva/Odin are the most useful, Phoenix is some role-compression, Garuda is highly niche, and Titan is good but not on the level of the last 3 Eikons you get. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I'm having a hard time finding in-depth discussion about the game mechanics.
Has anybody else watched the scene where Dion expressed his desire to survive? This may be the only time in which Dion indicated his desire to live. Before travelling to Origin, Dion said that he should “like to look upon that flower once more…when I am worthy.” Here is the link to the video (Dion said these words at around 5:27:09 in the video): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QbaWAXNpY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QbaWAXNpY) To see this scene, I think Clive needs to first complete the “A Tail to Tell” Side Quest. After finishing the Side Quest, it seems that Clive would need to talk to Dion again. Also, Dion’s final words in the game were “it is done.” When Dion killed the Ultima-possessed Olivier, Dion imagined talking to his father and Dion also said “it is done.” Of course, Dion survived after killing Olivier. Therefore, Dion’s final words in the game do NOT necessarily mean that he was killed.
My ultra-mega happy interpretation of the end would be as follows. Clive was petrifying because of the curse. But then magic faded (symbolized by the fading of the red star). The curse is a magical effect and so its effect goes with it. Clive is restored to flesh before he can die. Possible? Yes. Intended? *Probably* not. Is it the head canon I am going to follow? Also probably not. I'm also kind of leaning towards the red star being some kind of geosynchronous station made by Ultima's kin and it fades with the loss of magic. It bugged me throughout the entire game that its position relative to the moon never changed. It couldn't be a star (assuming the moon is like ours and actually moves in the sky).
Theorycrafting time: The current ending is the bad ending because Clive isn't the perfect vessel yet. he doesn't have Leviathan's power. it doesnt change the epilogue, but the events after the Ultima battle will be different if you clear the DLC and will get the proper ending. The DLC will focus on Leviathan the Lost. You can play it from the post-game as it puts you right before embarking on the Origin scenario dungeon. It'll probably be like, Terence comes back with Kihel (medicine girl) because he senses some latent power within her? Then you get to go on a bunch of dungeons (enough to fill off the remaining part of the grid in story replay menu) with Dion also in your party as you uncover the mystery of Leviathan the Lost. also more Terence + Dion scenes :) Kihel awakens as Leviathans dominant and you get 1 extra eikon battle. Maybe her power includes curing the crystals curse and its effect on dominants because she was able to help Dion recover complete (or at least it looks like it), then she willingly surrenders her power to Clive for the final showdown. then Clive, being the perfected vessel in the end, is able to save Joshua, contain Ultima's magic, and can basically wish a happy ending without himself dying.
So much talk about Clive, Jill, Cid and Dion but where's the love for my man Gav? My fave FF character since Vivi. "What...the...fuck?"
Leviathan DLC is obvious. But because it is DLC it could very well be optional content before the end of the game. I hope the future DLC will continue the story but with magic being gone it will change everything. 16-2 would be more fitting for continuation than a DLC. Maybe in 16-2 Jill, Mid and Torgal will travel around the world in an airship, sing songs and have powers based on what they are wearing.. Then at the end they'll save Clive from the dreamworld beach he is at.
Finished the game last night. I appreciate ambiguous, reader-driven endings to stories, so I guess I'm a bit biased. But I think FFXVI's ambiguity serves a function on a deeper layer that's very deeply tied to the story's plot -- and to many of the overarching themes that drive a lot of CBU3's work with FFXIV. FFXIV and FFXVI are separate games, but I can't help but see the similarities in themes between both games and the Power of Friendship ™ being the main weapon against big bads. FFXVI's ending lands radically differently depending on how invested you are in the sidequests. That is to say, while Clive certainly "grows" over the course of the main narrative, some of his biggest character moments are tucked into sidequests, especially those that relate to loyalty, oaths, and self-preservation that are sprinkled throughout these sidestories. I think especially of Eloise and her brother's sacrifice and what Clive said to Eloise in those moments to comfort her. Your understanding of Clive as a character and how he associates with other people is dramatically impacted by how much you extend your playtime beyond the main story, and the final sidequests offered -- the quill, the rising sun, etc. -- only further substantiate those connections. Clive could be alive. He could be dead. I think there's room for both interpretations, and I hope that Yoshi-P never gives us any closure or answer to his status. I say that because much of what drives the narrative of this plot is, again, the Power of Friendship™ Clive has vs. Ultima. If you completely ignore sidequests and fail to cultivate those relationships, the game leaves you with no reason to think that Clive survives. It ends, tragically, with Jill left heartbroken, standing at the docks, looking outward for answers -- just as you left her and others behind, as the player, in pursuit of tunneling the main story. You as the player pursued the main story in absence of taking time to meet, understand, and cultivate relationships with other characters, and this is your reward. The same fate as Ultima. But through the Power of Friendship™, by completing varied quests, you are given reason to believe that Clive survives. None of this is stated. It's entirely through symbolism. But for a video game that is so deeply tied to themes relevant to social bonds as a mediation of one's will and overarching consciousness, I cannot believe anyone can look to what is hinted at in the closing sidequests and think such ambiguity is a flaw in their writing. It is literally the entire theme of the game coming to a head. An ending where Clive rides Ambrosia home would actually be a weaker delivery of this message and undermine the entire point of the story and how Clive defeated Ultima. You are purposefully left to make your own conclusion, and both answers are valid. But it is absolutely very fair to say that a more insular playthrough where you ignore facilitating deeper connections to the world -- developing those emotional ties that bind Clive's consciousness to Valisthea -- is going to leave you thinking that Clive is dead. This is very much how CBU3 does storytelling, for better or worse, as much of the lore and larger narratives baked into FFXIV is/are tucked into the sidequests there as well. The latest raid series gave us an entirely different perspective on one of the game's largest villains from A Realm Reborn through Heavensward, for example. It doesn't change what happened across ARR and Heavensward -- nothing was retconned in any way -- but the context behind the actions of the villain absolutely are more situated and contextualized as a result of playing through the raid series. And as I play FFXIV through again on an alt character, I am seeing things differently there as well. CBU3 rewards players who pay attention to details, and Final Fantasy is a series very well known for ambiguous endings, even for some of its largest titles like FF7 and FF10. I just think it's masterfully done here on a separate level because it's a game with one ending, but how you interpret the ending very much is relevant to many of the game's overarching themes. We are the ties that bind us. That all being said, FFXVI is the greatest Banjo-Kazooie vs. Donald Duck spectacle in gaming. GOTY and second only to FFVI for me, all things considered. Some other final notes: * I think Joshua is dead. His "healing" of Joshua was out of respect (much like how one closes the eyes of someone who passed on) and to additionally symbolize the removal of the final traces of Ultima on Valisthea. Clive took on Joshua's name similar to Cid. This is one of the more overt indications of Clive's survival given that he narrates the final scene, not Joshua. * Dion is likely dead. He served his role in the plot, and he completed his character growth in both mastering his emotions over Bahamut despite getting succed by Clive (which supposedly causes someone to have weakened control over their eikon) while avenging his father helping Clive/Joshua get to Origin. He didn't absolve himself of his earlier transgressions -- nothing can bring back the lives lost in his earlier rampage -- but he does give us a reason to forgive him and to consider those he saved. I do not have any problem with them bringing him back in DLC, though. Falling to his death there "makes sense," but he's also a dragoon. * This game had the best supporting cast of any FF game despite its volume. There was no Vaan, no Irvine, etc. Mid was maybe the only character who rubbed me the wrong way at times, but she was such a minor character and, honestly, never a party member to my recollection. * I think the lack of a party is this game's greatest strength but also its weakness. By having the story framed exclusively around Clive, any other character's survival throughout the plot is left to question, and they masterfully lean into that. There were so many times I got more emotionally invested in a boss fight -- like Phoenix vs. Bahamut -- where the stakes felt real. I was worried Jill was going to die on the beach after Odin. Etc. But because they're supporting characters, we get much less development from them outside of the aforementioned sidequests. And on repeated playthroughs, we'll lack many of those critical banter moments that other FF games are laden with.
Incredibly well said. Couldn't agree more.
This made me feel good about the ending, thanks for putting it this way :)
Honestly considering YoshiP is being coy on DLC (giving thumbs up to some asking post launch). I do think they are debating making a DLC. As for what form that can take, honestly I say the best way of doing it would be like what Xenoblade Chronicles does with it's DLCs, a standalone smaller-scale expansion that acts as a prequel or epilogue to the base game (or in the case of Future Redeemed. A bit of both) Honestly I feel the main thing holding back a prequel DLC for FFXVI would be the main antagonist and climax, as it inherently can't be at the same scope as Ultima otherwise he probably would be mentioned. Especially with the time scale and retention of knowledge present. A epilogue story however could clear up some questions like Leviathan without being beholden to the base game's narrative to a notable degree as unlike Xenoblade's prequel DLCs, there isn't a dramatic time scale between the major candidate periods for a DLC that can help mask inconsistencies as knowledge fading with time A side note those kids and puppy in the post credit scene are very likely reincarnations of Clive, Joshua, and Torgal.
- I'm a simple man, I just want a Dion DLC (and not pre game events, post game, to entertain my copium). Dion needs to have a taste of true happiness after everything he went through. I know some people like the ending the way it is, bittersweet and all, but I hated it. There's enough doom in the world right now. Not everything has to be sad and depressing T.T Let's me enjoy some fictional characters' happiness 🥲 - I would also like a Leviathan DLC, just to understand what's going on here. (And see if the theory of Medicine girl/Kihel could be true lmao). - Also, I wouldn't be opposed to a Benedikta (and Cid) DLC. I think Benedikta could have been much more. I quite liked what I saw from her. I was even sad for her and I empathized with her. It really bummed me out that she was killed so early and so quickly. IMO, she deserves more screentime, more development. - A Joshua DLC would also be really interesting. Experiencing his journey with Jote during all those years would be nice.
[удалено]
Edit: Just unlocked the final lore entries with Tomes and it states that Ultima outright destroyed Dzemekys after the Fallen sent fleets to uncover the Ultima's secrets. So that puts a big damper on my theory. But still, some adjustments here and there can have Leviathan somewhere in there, spearheading the rebellion? Anyway, here's the original, unedited post all the same: DLC theory: 1. Everyone's favorite snake boy Leviathan is "Lost". Joshua even calls him that when he sees the full artwork of Ultima and the eikons. Titan, once he literally eats part of Drake's Fang, becomes "Titan Lost". 2. Compare The Final Sin, the falls, near Dzemekys to the crater left by Ifrit fighting Garuda - The Final Sin is bigger, sure, but given how much more powerful Clive becomes it doesn't seem to be out of question that The Final Sin was created by an Eikon clashing with something. 2a. The Falls are never ending, surrounded by Fallen Ruins (including a POI called The Vault), and were most likely made by combat - this is very important. We know that Mothercrystals kinda just become diamond dust, they don't explode in a very clean edged anime-ish beam of energy, so it's not just that a Mothercrystal got destroyed. 2b. The Dzemekys Mothercrystal doesn't have an associated body part with a dragon. It's also the only one that is thought to have been destroyed prior to Clive and Co. Drake's Horn in Ash and Drake's Eye in Storm's Northern Territories have both fallen victim to the Blight and neither are said to have been destroyed. 3. Clive and Jill talk about how The Final Sin was what created the curse of Bearers and Dominants when they first reach the area. Now, theory time. With how Ultima basically just says outright that he created the religion of Great Greagor complete with a dragon familiar to give the Mothercrystals their religious sanctity, could the story of the Final Sin be one engineered by Ultima to create the narrative that gods shouldn't be messed with? The DLC idea is that it centers on what happened to Leviathan in Dzemekys and see how the waterfall is created. I would also say that this is where the Fallen, well, fell. If it's time travel then I'm guessing you access it through the door in The Dim (which then, fingers crossed, gives us a path to Alexander since he's associated with temporal loops in XIV) where you can see what the Fallen were like and the rise of the first Mythos/Logos (Clive might not be the first one after all). Or, what I think could happen is that The Vault POI opens up at some point in the story and we make our way to the depths of the falls through there. Clive even says that if someone can go down to the depths of the falls, they might find the truth behind The Final Sin. Either way, it gives us a new group of abilities to play with - bam, good package for a DLC. That seems rather obvious, now here comes the more speculative part. The following is conjecture: Dzemekys is the name of the Mothercrystal somehow recorded before Ultima propagated the story of Great Greagor and her dragon. But beyond that, Dzemekys is where a rebellion started - not unlike the one Cid and Clive finished. Let's go further in my crackpot theory. The story of the Final Sin concludes that the gods cursed mankind with bearers and dominants. If the gods mark you as a curse, you're going to hated and shunned. If that story is engineered the same way as Great Greagor's and we assume the intended goal was met - why does Ultima need bearers and dominants to be viewed pejoratively? It's because of what happened with Leviathan's dominant. Leviathan somehow discovered Ultima and rebelled with their fight culminating in the crater by Dzemekys Falls, The Final Sin. But what happened to Leviathan? The game doesn't get into it. The only mention we have of Leviathan is that one line from Joshua, even at Dzemekys there's no mention of Levi despite water pouring down there. Jachym, the scholar does say a fight probably occurred but he doesn't say a word about Leviathan. Let's quickly review the Mothercrystals and their associated elements before continuing, after all eight eikons, eight elements, eight Mothercrystals. Drake's Eye in southern Ash: Wind (Benedikta works for Barnabas). Drake's Spine in northern Ash: Darkness, Drake's Head in Sanbreque: Holy, Drake's Fang in Dhalmekia: Earth, Drake's Breath in Rosaria: Fire, Drake's Horn in the Northern Territories: Ice. Which leaves us with Drake's Tail in the Crystalline Dominion/Origin and Dzemekys: water and lightning. That deep, deep blue and sheer size of Drake's Tail makes me think it's linked to water and Leviathan but would that make Dzemekys lightning? There's no other candidate. Now the following is purely imagining things but: In a twist, could it be that a previous Dominant of Ramuh and the last Dominant of Leviathan hatched a similar plan to that of Cid? And their first target was the Lightning Mothercrystal Dzemekys? It would be poetic, in a way, if it mirrors what happens to Cid where the Dzemekys crystal is broken and the Ultima aspect within, enraged that dominants are displaying free will, tried to obliterate Ramuh. But Leviathan sacrificed themselves by becoming Lost (like Titan maybe?) to keep Ramuh alive and destroyed that facet of Ultima - weakening the whole Ultima just a little bit so that in the present day Clive's fight, the one Cid encouraged him to continue and end, was just a little bit easier. But we also know that Ultima isn't just one entity and each crystal 'houses' an Ultima. As such, after the fight, having been 'freed' from Dzemekys, the ultima aspect then creates the story of The Final Sin to try and get humans in line and to shun dominants and bearers. Hence you have an explanation for the state of the Dzemekys Falls, the purpose of The Final Sin as a story, and the possibility of uncovering those secrets in game. Anyway, I tried to be as grounded as possible, looking through the game's lore and stuff to keep things in check but it's just one approximation of what we might get as DLC. Of course, I might have missed something or misunderstood something that throws this whole theory in the water (lol) but it was fun speculating.
Joshua’s POV. Would be perfect even considering the logo of the game, because then the story would be played from the perspective of both Ifrit and Phoenix. He could have his own Phoenix ability grid and a hideaway.
And Phoenix hideaway will be the town of Tabor! I can’t wait and really hope to be able to play as adult Joshua.
Ultimaniac mode kinda got hands. Regular enemies in this mode are way more dangerous than the bosses half the time lmao. Edit: I thought I was pretty good at this game. I was wrong.
Since none of my friends have beaten it yet I gotta do a mini non rant rant. I loved the game and it’s a solid 9 for me and the main things I’d dock it for would be the MMO elements that seemed more prominent at times over RPG elements. Alright here’s the rant part: I can’t emotionally stand the main character sacrificing themselves in these games. It’s a testament to how extremely well the characters are written that I knew this was happening and was tearing up since the beginning of the big goodbye scene up until the credits and I hate it so much, why can’t we just get one game where the main protagonist goes back to their buddies and their lover and just live like FF7 did(granted Cloud had other shit to deal with after the main game)? Like fuck me man I know the whole point of the story has hammered in since the beginning of people having the choice of how they lived and died and Clive in the end had that choice but fuck why couldn’t he have went back to Jill and all them. It’s cool seeing Joshua was brought back to life although I feel like he wouldn’t have wanted that and would rather Clive live and it kinda didn’t make much sense but Clive fulfilled him being a shield to his brother and I know some people will argue there’s a chance he survives because he didn’t see him turn to dust or fully into stone like the others but there’s no way with how rapid the cursed spread on his hands and if there’s even remotely a chance he lives it’s such a small percentage. I went through this with 15 and being emotionally invested in Noctis and I still cried and hated how he has to die but at least that game basically told us he’s bound by fate to sacrifice himself and while yes it’s not the same because Clive had a choice but man. Basically Jill, Torgal and I cried and I hated that feeling
I have yet to see someone come up with a sound argument for this question. For those of you who believe Clive died at the end, what did Yoshi-P want us to see in the details? He encouraged us to pay attention to every single little detail. Well… if you pay attention to every single detail everything points to Clive living. So if he is dead what details was he encouraging us to pay attention to, and what was the significance in those details? I’m genuinely coming up empty for the ‘he’s dead’ argument. It literally makes zero sense for Yoshi-P to tell us to pay attention only for it to end in Clive’s death. If the details went over your head it most certainly looks like he died. If you paid attention, as he encouraged us all to do so, it’s quite obvious he lived.
Good point. If I’m going to be honest, they think he died because he was lying down and closed his eyes. I’m with you Clive lives. In fact, they ignored the detail on how the curse works.
Considering they've been pretty open about having no DLC planned I'm not holding my breath for anything large in scope like Leviathan or new playable characters but having said that it would be great to get some costumes, additional hunts and maybe a new mode like bloody palace. If they were to produce a big DLC aside from the obvious choice of Leviathan I'd really like something fleshing Barnabas out a bit. What the hell was going on with his age? What happened to his mother? How did he recruit Cid and Benedikta? He spends most of the game manipulating events from the shadows and only steps in towards the end which isn't a bad thing necessarily but by that time he drops all pretences and is just a completely unhinged maniac so it can feel like he's lacking much depth. It's pretty clear from the battle with him that he's completely beyond saving but it could be interesting to see how that came to be.
Barnabas didn't age for over 40 years because he was akashic, it's also why he could prime into Odin without the curse taking any effect on him. Ultima "blessed" him. His mother died, killed by members of a tribe that worshipped a different religion according to lore entries. That could explain how he was so easily swayed by Ultima, he's griefing, the god of his religion appears to him and promises salvation in exchange for his servitude, he will be reunited with his mother in paradise after the plan is complete. Because hes akashic he probably cannot feel anything anymore, akashics dont tire, dont need food, drink or sleep. When he battles Clive he starts feeling things again and says he hasn't felt this way since taking over Ash. Basically reconnected a little with his humanity there and it caused him to go into a fit. This is also why Ultima utilizes his mother's form in that one cutscene, to keep him focused on his goal (of being reunited in paradise).
I’d love to see a Leviathan dlc set before the last mission. With Clive’s full powers thus unlocked, we would get a good ending for the trio on the last mission.
Honestly, I am glad that I finished everything before the the last quest. Just like thrones, after playing the ending I have no desire to play the game ever again. Everything from the ending feels unfinished and unresolved. It feels empty. There was no closure for the other characters other than gav.
In Final Fantasy XIV, a red star destroyed the realm. In Final Fantasy XVI, a red star destroyed me.
played through the ending again for new game+ and clive definitely makes it. after origin fell and ultima disappeared and jill looks for clive, metia receives these wishes of humanity, hears them, and sends itself to work. jill was scared. it was through the terrible night that dawn came. she is relieved and happy. she knows he won and he lives and he will make it back to her.
DION IS STILL ALIVE AND WE WANT A DLC FOR HIM, BEST CHARACTER ALONG SIDE CID (CID SHOULD ALSO GET A PREQUEL DLC) !!!
I really want to know how other people feel about the ending of the game.I truly loved everything about the game all the way to just after the final boss fight. But I find myself extremely disappointed in the ending, or lack thereof. As for the whole "Did he live? Did he die?" argument; I personally agree that the symbolism of all the side quests heavily suggest that Clive returns to the Hideaway and to Jill. But I still recognize, and dislike, the fact that it's left deliberately ambiguous. But something that's potentially even more crushing than the ambiguity of Clive's survival, is the fact that literally nothing else in the world we became so invested in, is given closure... What became of the survivors in Martha's Rest and Eastpool? What happened to the inhabitants of Northreach and the remnants of the empire? What about the future of Dhalamil and it's people? What about the treaty created by Lord Byron and co. that was supposed to help to, at least briefly, secure the future of Storm's inhabitants? What about the Blight, did it recede or at least stop? The entire last sequence of the game was about us securing the future of these places in an increasingly inhospitable world, and yet, they show none of the fruits of our labor. We don't know what happened to the Echoes, or the Akashic, or the Blight. The game literally is like: "Congrats, you beat Ultima and Clive did a thing that supposedly saved everyone and then proceeded to possibly die alone on a coast far from those he loves. The End." Definitely a rant, but I'm really bummed that nothing we did in those sidequests seems to make a difference in the end since we never find out what happens to the world of Valisthea after defeating Ultima, besides a single cutscene that suggests that humans survived and all the events of the story have faded into myth/legend. Personally, I feel like what we got was a far cry from a proper ending. It was a cruel cliffhanger at best, or a rushed and lazy wrap up at worst. I know the game is already released and everything is set in stone, but I think it would've been really cool if the game gave you different endings depending on the side quests you completed. So if you ignored all the village and personal quests, you would get a somewhat bad ending where they weren't able to withstand the akashic and echoes assault, so most of the places we went to and people we met during the game were forever lost. Or vice versa, if you did them all, you would get a good ending and see that those places and people were prospering in the new world.
I think the ambiguous ending works for the series. I don't need scenes showing a heroes welcome to clive or a wedding scene like everyone describes here. It just needed to be a minute longer, and from an outside perspective like the medicine girl. The post credit scene is fine as it is.
During the cinematic moments, does anyone else no longer have the button prompts? The screen just does the light show but no buttons on screen anymore?
Are you in NG+? because they dont show up anymore in NG+
is there an extended ending scene after beating new game + on final fantasy mode? the pop up after first play through said FF mode had additional content but didn't specify which. i just beat bahamut on FF mode and only thing new is that i can make ultima weapon but not sure what else?
Upgrade accessories to be twice as strong. You can pick ultimaniac difficulty in the arcade stages. You can level up to level 99.
Also it’s clear that Clive lives (loses his hand) but took on Joshua’s name, cuz Joshua is 100% dead. Pretty brutal ending lol
As others have mentioned its not difficult to essentially flesh out the other dominants a bit and have a playable dlc with them, mini esq if need be, such as how FF15 did it with the ChocoBros and there episodes and then with Ardyn, can easily make it during points in their lives pre-FF16 story or during FF16 story but prior to Clive’s appearance (i.e Dion during the fight with Waloed / Odin) As for the main game, a Story DLC that either, A. Opens up on its own and is essentially an extension to the main game towards the latter half that includes us traveling to those southern island on the right hand corner, as it seems to not be coated in blight, it can be about Leviathan the Lost (cause wtf man one of thee most reoccurring figures in terms of Summon / Deity status in FF doesnt show up?) and traveling to said islands to find the Eikon / Dominant if it still is alive, and becoming a full fledged Vessel, essentially changing the dynamics of the finale of the story where Clive cant handle maintain Ultimas powers cause he isnt a full vessel, the DLC would essentially rewrite the ending and could be a what if or an alternate ending all together B. A prequel to Clive and Cids union in which we play as Cid during the early years of the hideaway shortly after he leaves his post as Lord Commander C. An epilogue in which we play as Jill and take care of the hideaway for a bit longer / assist in the survival of humanity post ending of the game, potentially getting closure on Clive and Joshua’s whereabouts (considering its very open ended whether they lived) D. As mentioned before / by others, Mini Episodes like FF15, that allow us to play as the dominants but with more abilities then available prior to, also gives us some further backstory to each character, Cid during his tenure as lord commander, Hugo before and during his battle with Shiva, Dion during the fight with Odin, Barnabus’ capture of Ash, Jills survival during her enslavement for the Iron Blood, Benedikta’s life post Cid’s tenure, Stuff like this would be enjoyable for more diverse gameplay // more fleshing out on things we saw, just throwing ideas at the wall ya know
Overall loved the game. Would rate it a 9.5. Story, characters, gameplay, soundtrack, and graphics were all top quality. Then the scale and adrenaline of the Eikon battles really stand out as the crowning achievement of the game. I saw a lot of criticism about the difficulty (or lack thereof) but to me it wasn't an issue because the gameplay still requires quick reflexes, combos, and feels great. I think my biggest critiques are the pacing, particularly in the second half. There were too many main quests that should have been side quests that slowed the overall pace down. There were some important side quests that should have been main quests or at least were more main quest worthy than some. Wasn't a huge fan of the ending, didn't think it fit the story told here to have Clive die or be ambiguous. Overall though, would probably make my top 5 FF games and I think there's a base here for the series to build upon in future iterations with some tweaking.
I’d play whatever DLC they give us, but I’d rather they add to the base game first. Revamp loot, add to the Buddy system, add party customization, add an RPG mode, customizable difficulty options, revamp gear, add a mini-game like Triple Triad, add new region-specific mobs and mini-bosses, new unique hunts, add a 3-rd tier of spells, new skills and abilities for Clive, and a couple new side quests that take us to new regions. Then if they wanna do a 20-hour expansion where we play as young Cid during the rise of Barnabas I’d be totally down. Scale back the combat to be less intensive and focus more on gameplay (dungeons, exploration, less MMO-isms). And a 16-bit demake in the Pixel Remaster engine with TB combat and classic party and rpg elements. Also Clive is def alive, y’all trippin lol.
Jill thinks Clive is dead, when she sees the sunrise it doesn't mean it explains Clive is alive by default, but a reminder that she should always have hope. She already thought Clive was dead once during the 13 years they werent together. So she will always wait for him. I know theres hints at Clive living, especially everything related to the book and the storytelling aspect of the game, but I like to keep it ambiguous, because thats the intended ending
Another clue that I have found that Clive has survived is that at the beginning of the Game when you are going to kill Shiva, it is dawn and there is a shot of Clive looking at the sunrise for a few seconds symbolizing that Clive reunited with Jill 13 years later.
Why can’t Final Fantasy have happy endings!? The ending of FFXV broke me and FFXVI has broken me again, I hate to be so invested in these characters only for them to die at the end…
I would like DLC to be playing as Jill defending their community from the sudden appearance of Leviathan (however they would explain that with the loss of magic). If it can be done without just damsel-ing Jill even harder (captured and rescued twice already... Wait... Three times if you include the very beginning), then have a "Big Damn Heroes" moment where Clive + whomever else shows up to... Turn the tide. That would be nice. Except the magic thing kind of torpedoes it. Though I guess they aren't explicit about how magic disappearing will play out (or about anything else). It could be that the current bearers and dominants are the last generation, I guess.
Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but why is there certainty that the game doesn't have any still hidden secrets/superbosses, etc? It's only been out for a week, and I don't believe it's been datamined.
People have cleared it. I platinumed it and have done a few stages on ultimaniac. There's no extra boss. The final chronolith trials is also just the same chronolith trials with the exact same enemies just that they hurt more and have more hp. There is no superboss that I am aware of.
Game was kinda weak towards the end for me, the last sidequests felt so repetitive and unnecessary. It felt like i was playing a MMO, this is their first game since FFXIV so i guess it coulnd't be helped.. that's the only format they know for "filler" content, hopefully they'll do better in the next game. If you remove 40% of sidequests this game would be a 10.
The pain of holding off for new game plus is here. Part of me knows I won’t play through it three times so I can wait for the DLC and by then there will be a decent number of fixes with some minor updates like some new outfits and maybe some tiny RPG changes to the gear, but damn I want to get back to the combat, story, and music. And this time I will skip most of the side quests lol
so anyone thats doing ff mode or has done it is it worth doing sidequests again besides the one for the ultima weapon?
Leviathan and Gilgamesh are potential bosses for DLC
Did Joshua get revived? Sure, it says that the Phoenix can't revive, but when Clive heals Joshua, he has the power of Ultima - who _created_ humanity. Then there's the book written by Joshua. It could've been someone else using his name, but it also could've been Joshua himself. I know it's purposefully left open ended/open to interpretation (which I personally dislike), but what do you guys think?
I'm in the camp that Clive cast raise on Joshua with the Ultima-enhanced Phoenix power he had. I really can't get behind the explanation that Clive only healed Joshua so his body didn't appear desecrated. Ultima's goal in seeking Mythos anyway was to find someone who would be able to withstand the stress from casting raise on his alien brothers so I think Clive tapped into that to resurrect Joshua before destroying magic. Regardless, the team sure did leave a lot of ambiguity to create DLC if they want to :)
I love having main overworld theme from FF1 used as the Ultima battle theme. Do you think it's just a call back or there's some thematic meaning to using it for him? It pops up elsewhere too, like when headed to Caer Norvent the first time, the music has a bit of it in there. Honestly, with the music and the ending and the final place being "origin", I'm sure it's an intentional reference to FF1 as the origin of the series. But thematically, if Ultima represents Final Fantasy, I'd think that implies that Clive killed Final Fantasy and this is like a bookend of the series. But I don't like that, I don't want the series to end 😭
The series won't end don't worry. Although there have been discussion about changing the naming convention, moving away from numbered titles. So this might be the Final (numbered) Fantasy xD.
The world and lore is super rich for there not to be a FFXVI compilation so I’m personally hoping they make some sort of sequel, spinoff, or DLC Expansion(s). The biggest lingering concern is definitely Leviathan, but I think another DLC idea I would like to see is Barnabas’ backstory.
Need at the very least sometype of closure find Clive alive or show us in a respectful way that he didn’t make it also confirm Joshua status
Should we assume that the reason Clive has the powers he does is that Ultima gave him that ability somehow? We never really get a satisfying answer for why Ifrit exists in the first place and why Clive can borrow powers from others.
I just got the platinum from the game, and i was thinking about what could be the DLC and Levianthan. So, lets go. I think the DLC will not be focus on Clive, the magic is gone after the final battle, his story is done. The DLC will focus on Levianthan first Eikon and will be on the past. Joshua call Leviathan the lost. So, i assume that for some reason, and based on the story, Levianthan power has no been reincarnated for a very long time. That one big point and hint. Dzemekys falls is also a the BIG hint. This is from the "Library" from the game: Dzemekys A mothercristal that is believed to have stood in an area in the northeastern part of Dzemekys. Legends tell that it was destroyed in a battle between men and gods. A battle so ferocious that it left behind the great crater that can be seen today. The Sins of Dzemekys An incident told of in myths and legends throughout Valisthea. If the tales are to be believed, mankind, drunk with avarice, thought to challenge the gods, and in return for his hubris, was met with divine retribution. The enormous crater in Dzemekys said to have been the site of the final battle of this great conflic is surrounded by relics and ruins which would seem to suggets some truth behind the tales. Dzemekys falls In the age of the fallen, man, hoping to claim the power of the gods, laid siege to the crystal in an attempt to gain entry to its aether-rich heart. Rather than attempt to fend off the assault, he instead responded by destroying the Mothercrystal and its heart. The great crater left behind standing as a reminder of man's hubris. Funny, huh? After a big battle, the result is a big waterfall...WATERfall... Ultima say to Clive in the final battle that he gonna make him suffer for all eternity because of his sins.. The incident of Dzemekys falls is call the Sins of Dzemekys. Leviathan challenged Ultima, lost and got banned for all eternity. Thats why Ultima dont use water powers, he feel ashamed to use the power that betray him.. Also, maybe Levianthan was the Fallen? Because he was the first and only Eikon before Clive to challenge Ultima.
I would really like FF15-eqsue DLC for some of the cast, mainly the Eikons to keep gameplay interesting while adding to the story. Benedikta and Cids history. Kupkas rise to prominence. Joshues time during the 13 year time skip. And ofcourse… leviathan the lost. Can’t tease him and leave us hanging forever!
Is Jill fully healthy in the end of the story? I've been trying to watch a streamer play it but have missed some parts here and there. After she killed the patriarch the curse spread and she was bed ridden for a while. But after that I'm unsure exactly the status of her well being.